The Christian Hell

[David19]

This is something I'd like to get peoples opinions on. What are peoples views on the Christian Hell?. On a lot of Pagan sites and books, you'll find a lot of people who seem to find it "disgusting" or horrible or cruel, etc, but I think I must be some kind of outcast in the Pagan community 'cause I really enjoy hearing the descriptions of Hell.

I'm watching a documentary called 'Hell: the Devil's Domain' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE_TWhzG-p0), a History Channel documentary, which basically talks about the evolution of Hell, from both ancient times through to the modern day and conceptions of it, and one of the commentators said in the Middle Ages, people went to church, more to hear the about Hell than anything else 'cause, like going to a good horror film, you want to be scared, you enjoy it, etc, and I can relate to this.

While I believe in that Hell (one dimension among many, IMO), I don't believe everyone goes there, it depends on what God or Gods you follow or your particular path in life, but I do personally think Hell is probably one of the most interesting afterlifes in any mythology. Some Pagans love to talk about the Summer Lands (which sounds like, basically, a place where a lot of hippies end up) but, for me personally, I prefer darker realms (maybe it's has something to do with the fact I worship a Goddess who can be considered dark - Ereshkigal, and her realm that me and other Sumerians end up, can probably be considered a darker realm than others).

That's one of the reasons why I also like learning about the Kemetic afterlife, especially the journey that you are said to take and the terrors you face on the way, as well as a few other afterlives.

Anyway, just wanted to let people know my thoughts and wanted to get your opinions too.

[Eternal Night]

Hell to me would be where all the cool people are, such as Manowar and Maiden.
It would be one long metal concert!!.....

No seriously I don't believe in an afterlife so no Hell or Heaven.
But I tell you wot would be my idea of Hell.
Trying to strive to please some unknown higher being the whole of my life, infear of being sent to a dredded place, that may or may not exsist
I would much rather enjoy my time here than worry about what could or could not be coming after it.

[Chaos Hawk]

While I don't believe in the Christian concept of Hell, I do enjoy learning about different perspectives of it. But then again, I have always been drawn to the darker sides of things.

[David19]

While I don't believe in the Christian concept of Hell, I do enjoy learning about different perspectives of it. But then again, I have always been drawn to the darker sides of things.

That's similar to me, I'm more drawn to the darker side of things too. I also like learning about the darker sides of humanity, particularly psychology (ones that deal with sociopaths, psychopaths, etc).

[Chaos Hawk]

That's similar to me, I'm more drawn to the darker side of things too. I also like learning about the darker sides of humanity, particularly psychology (ones that deal with sociopaths, psychopaths, etc).


Me too. I found personality disorders facinating when I was in college, but not so intresting when I was actually working with them in the mental health field.

I have some great books on the subject. These are my top 3:

Dark Justice: A History of Punishment and Torture by Karen Farrington
EVIL Inside Human Violence and Cruelty by Roy Baumeister
The Anatomy of Motive by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker

[Aidron]

I don't disbelieve or believe in it. It may exist on some other plane or are as another dimension or as an alternate reality - who knows. I'm sure this plane is not the only one out there, after all.

I find the descriptions of such places like Hell, fascinating, particularly when it delves into the 9 levels of Hell. Then again, I enjoy the cosmology of D&D a lot and it has its own version of Hell (also known as Baator, complete with 9 levels) as well as the Abyss (infinite levels). Wherever the 'Hell' or 'Abyss' comes from (i.e. which story or religion), I always find it intriguing.

As for whether or not anyone will go there, no clue. I personally believe we don't go anywhere such as a Hell, at least not permanently. If anyone is punished in the afterlife, I see no point in removing them from the rest of reality permanently and perhaps it is only a temporary state (albeit one that can last for eons I suppose). From what my sources tell me, time functions very differently for those who have crossed over than for us. Then again, I'm not convinced anyone does actually go to any type of Hell, but what do I know. I am, however, convinced that there are other planes that exist which we could deem similar to a Hell or an Abyss.

[David19]

Me too. I found personality disorders facinating when I was in college, but not so intresting when I was actually working with them in the mental health field.

I have some great books on the subject. These are my top 3:

Dark Justice: A History of Punishment and Torture by Karen Farrington
EVIL Inside Human Violence and Cruelty by Roy Baumeister
The Anatomy of Motive by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker

Thanks for those books you recommended.

Just out of interest, what type of job do you do (are you like a psychologist or something else?).

Thanks again, I'm going to see if I can get one of them some time soon.

[David19]

I don't disbelieve or believe in it. It may exist on some other plane or are as another dimension or as an alternate reality - who knows. I'm sure this plane is not the only one out there, after all.

I find the descriptions of such places like Hell, fascinating, particularly when it delves into the 9 levels of Hell. Then again, I enjoy the cosmology of D&D a lot and it has its own version of Hell (also known as Baator, complete with 9 levels) as well as the Abyss (infinite levels). Wherever the 'Hell' or 'Abyss' comes from (i.e. which story or religion), I always find it intriguing.

As for whether or not anyone will go there, no clue. I personally believe we don't go anywhere such as a Hell, at least not permanently. If anyone is punished in the afterlife, I see no point in removing them from the rest of reality permanently and perhaps it is only a temporary state (albeit one that can last for eons I suppose). From what my sources tell me, time functions very differently for those who have crossed over than for us. Then again, I'm not convinced anyone does actually go to any type of Hell, but what do I know. I am, however, convinced that there are other planes that exist which we could deem similar to a Hell or an Abyss.

That actually sounds quite cool what you believe and have been told.

And, I'm like you in that I really find any Hell concept interesting. I want to read Dante's description of Hell, and I'd like to understand more of the Jewish Abyss concept too.

Plus, I also think that the DnD cosmology is quite cool too (even the cosmology of Buffy with all the Hell realms), etc.

I also agree that I think time moves differently for those who are in other realms or the dead (and if you look at the tales of people who go into one of the Fairy realms, people think they've only spent 20 minutes there, but acually 200 years have passed or something similar like that, etc).

[Aidron]

That actually sounds quite cool what you believe and have been told.

And, I'm like you in that I really find any Hell concept interesting. I want to read Dante's description of Hell, and I'd like to understand more of the Jewish Abyss concept too.

I've never read it, but I've researched it outside of the book enough to have a decent idea of how it works. Plus, many things are based upon it and while naturally not 100% true to their inspiration, they can offer insights or another spin on it. D&D is based heavily on it, for example.

I've never studied the Jewish concept of an/the Abyss, but I wouldn't mind researching it. Problem is, I'm lazy, so who knows when I'll get around to mustering up the energy to do so. The Abyss in D&D is a lot different than the Hells in that the former is infinite, with many levels yet to discover, some empty, others ruled by merciless demons of unparalleled might, and so forth. Still, since it's the chaotic evil outer plane it doesn't draw me in as much as the Nine Hells (which are lawful evil by design).


Plus, I also think that the DnD cosmology is quite cool too (even the cosmology of Buffy with all the Hell realms), etc.

Buffy? Eh. The show only lasted with me for like, a season or two, tops. It got too campy too quick (same with Charmed).

D&D though has so much supplemental lore on its cosmology that it provides enough to keep you occupied for awhile. Incidentally, it is rumored that the ruler of the Nine Hells/Baator will rise to godhood in 4th edition. :muwaha:


I also agree that I think time moves differently for those who are in other realms or the dead (and if you look at the tales of people who go into one of the Fairy realms, people think they've only spent 20 minutes there, but acually 200 years have passed or something similar like that, etc).

I think that's true for most realms. This plane seems to move at such a quickened pace that I would be surprised if there are a large portion of other planes that have a sense of time which moves more quickly. According to what my grandmother tells me (with her being dead, so wrap your head around that one I suppose), time for her passes so slowly. She's been dead for almost 2 decades now, yet she says she has no worries about moving on just yet because time is such a non-issue for her. I guess this is why so many cultures refer to the dead as the 'ageless ones' or by similar titles. :eyebrow:

[Tullip Troll]

the christian hell is where bad christians go, because that is the deal they have with their god ; )

Really I don't believe in a lake of fire kind of hell.

[David19]

I've never read it, but I've researched it outside of the book enough to have a decent idea of how it works. Plus, many things are based upon it and while naturally not 100% true to their inspiration, they can offer insights or another spin on it. D&D is based heavily on it, for example.

I can see that, and from what I know of the DnD cosmology, it does seem similar to the cosmology of Dante.


I've never studied the Jewish concept of an/the Abyss, but I wouldn't mind researching it. Problem is, I'm lazy, so who knows when I'll get around to mustering up the energy to do so. The Abyss in D&D is a lot different than the Hells in that the former is infinite, with many levels yet to discover, some empty, others ruled by merciless demons of unparalleled might, and so forth. Still, since it's the chaotic evil outer plane it doesn't draw me in as much as the Nine Hells (which are lawful evil by design).

That's kind of the same problem I have, right now, I'm busy at uni, but then when I do get some time, I can't find the motivation to find the info (on top of the other things I want to do). Hopefully, I can change that about myself.



Buffy? Eh. The show only lasted with me for like, a season or two, tops. It got too campy too quick (same with Charmed).

Really, I'd have thought you'd have liked it being campy ;).

Honestly Aidron, you're really failing at being a gay, you don't like Buffy, Madonna!.


D&D though has so much supplemental lore on its cosmology that it provides enough to keep you occupied for awhile. Incidentally, it is rumored that the ruler of the Nine Hells/Baator will rise to godhood in 4th edition. :muwaha:

That actually sounds quite cool. Do you know where I can find out more, like what's the title of the 4th edition (or what book would be better to start with)?.

Thanks :).



I think that's true for most realms. This plane seems to move at such a quickened pace that I would be surprised if there are a large portion of other planes that have a sense of time which moves more quickly. According to what my grandmother tells me (with her being dead, so wrap your head around that one I suppose), time for her passes so slowly. She's been dead for almost 2 decades now, yet she says she has no worries about moving on just yet because time is such a non-issue for her. I guess this is why so many cultures refer to the dead as the 'ageless ones' or by similar titles. :eyebrow:

That sounds quite cool, and I'd love to have just some of the experiences you've had (I call upon my ancestors, grandma (the dead one, not the alive one), and I know I've felt them, I just haven't communicated, as in verbally, that's something I can work on though).

[Aidron]

I can see that, and from what I know of the DnD cosmology, it does seem similar to the cosmology of Dante.

I would like to get my hands on a copy of his works, but I usually wind up blowing my money on make-up instead of books for the past few years. Although, I did just buy Yasmine Galenorn's SOTM trilogy. :D



That's kind of the same problem I have, right now, I'm busy at uni, but then when I do get some time, I can't find the motivation to find the info (on top of the other things I want to do). Hopefully, I can change that about myself.

I have 5 planets in Libra - I'm designed by the stars to be a slug. :foh:



Really, I'd have thought you'd have liked it being campy ;).

Honestly Aidron, you're really failing at being a gay, you don't like Buffy, Madonna!.

Failing with pride! I like "Bedtime Story" though by Madonna, it has an ethereal quality about it.

However, I give my boyfriend no mercy over his Kswiss, his girly choice of alcoholic drinks, and how he olds raw carrots when he eats them. :2G:




That actually sounds quite cool. Do you know where I can find out more, like what's the title of the 4th edition (or what book would be better to start with)?.

Thanks :).

Afraid not. 4th edition isn't out yet, it's in the works. You can try the D&D Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) for what information is now out, but a good portion of it may become 'history' in the D&D worlds since they're re-working everything. A spellplague supposedly occurs, several gods die, new ones rise to power. They always get rid of the older editions in a very apocalyptic way. :eyebrow:





That sounds quite cool, and I'd love to have just some of the experiences you've had (I call upon my ancestors, grandma (the dead one, not the alive one), and I know I've felt them, I just haven't communicated, as in verbally, that's something I can work on though).

I attribute it to having so many things fall in the 8th House of my natal chart, including Saturn and Pluto (which are only 1 degree apart), and both in Libra (which makes Saturn exalted). I just seem to have an affinity for the dead - again by design of the stars. :hrmm:

Just don't compare me to Sylvia Browne or that other guy whose name eludes me. I talk to my grandmother, not everyone else's. :rolleyes:

[mtpathy]

buddhists believe in a type of plane that imo corresponds alot with the christian concept of hell, lake of fire, bodies reithing in sexual pain that is pleasures, forever suffering by holding onto there own regrets,greed,lust,gluttony,invy.
however in the buddhist concept of this, it is a deciples existence to ferry the suffering across the lake of birth & death, teaching those that existence through the senses itself is the illusion, and only through realisation of self and the moment can one free themselves from drowning in the sea of illusion.
the biggest difference between the buddhist concept of suffering in illusion of life, and suffering in hell for christianity isnt in the way its described but that buddhists believe this is a plan that we unconciously exist within thats reality, as opposed to christians and others who believe that one has to first die to reach this plane.
as reincarnation "other thread" i believe the concept is correct but that its not placed within the correct context, i dont believe in the dividing line between life and death when it comes to reincarnation and hell, i believe they exist simultaniously within the reality we exist within now.

[LibraMoon]

a christian friend of mine believes Heaven is your soul being accepted above and can chose to become a spirit guide etc, Hell is being forced to be reincarnated back to the earth until you learn a lesson.

Not my cup of tea, but I thought it less fluffy than the floating clouds or firey lake stuff :smile:

[TygerTyger]

I have no idea if Heaven and Hell exist or what they may be like. It seems to me that the Christian church uses them as a very unsubtle means of control and that the existence of either place may extend no further than the fancy of the priest and the congregation.

It is curious, however, that in popular culture Hell seems the more interesting of the two. In shows like Buffy, Supernatural, Charmed, etc., the bad guys are always the sexiest and more impressive whilst Heaven offers us….fluff that somehow always manages to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, usually thanks to a last minute bit of good fortune.

I could think of my own personal versions of both places but the wouldn’t be the same!

[Philosophia]

Like Aidron, I don't believe or disbelieve in hell. It'll be hard to describe what hell could be because, in my opinion, it's the exact opposite of heaven. For example, a heaven might be filled with somebody's greatest desire. In hell, it will be filled with somebody's greatest fear.

I don't believe in a wonderous afterlife and places we go to. I believe that when we die, regardless of our lives actions, we simply become a part of the energy again and be recycled.

[Aidron]

Like Aidron, I don't believe or disbelieve in hell. It'll be hard to describe what hell could be because, in my opinion, it's the exact opposite of heaven. For example, a heaven might be filled with somebody's greatest desire. In hell, it will be filled with somebody's greatest fear.

True, which is what makes me believe, if there is a Hell, an Abyss, or some type of plane in which great suffering is placed upon mortals that it or the entities which created it or dwell there can manipulate the plane so as to tailor it to each of us. After all, if you're going to have a Hell, why not make it the most fearsome any of us can imagine? Although in reality if such a place does exist I doubt we could even begin to fathom the horrors there.

I do, however, believe there are darker, more horrific planes in the cosmos. I wouldn't call them a Hell, but Abyss? Perhaps. If there aren't I would like to know where some of the things I have seen, heard, and experienced came from (unless of course it was my own imagination they sprang from).


I don't believe in a wonderous afterlife and places we go to. I believe that when we die, regardless of our lives actions, we simply become a part of the energy again and be recycled.

From what my grandmother has told me, which should be taken with a grain of salt because A.) I'm not perfect and neither is she and thus it would come as no surprise if things were miscommunicated B.) she could be withholding information from me or lying to ensure some form of secrecy is not broken or C.) I could be imagining her or speaking to another entity mascarading as her... so... from what she has told me, it goes down like so:

Upon death you are guided (guides differ for each individual, it may be a relative, a god, she doesn't know) to a place where you can safely review your life. She said she, like most people, upon reviewing her life slapped her proverbial forehead numerous times and thought "What was I doing? What's the matter with me?", but it must be done so we can learn and you can continue reviewing your life as often as you wish until you feel the lessons have sunk in. It's like school, you may miss some things, but the more you study the lessons the more you understand them. Furthermore, she was very abusive to her own children (long before I was born), but her temper evened out over time and she says that all of the baggage and angst and sadness we carry with us is subdued once we die - in other words when you die you just let go of all the things that may have been weighing you down on Earth. Beyond all this, she says that unless she officially crosses over (since she's remaining Earthbound, if you will, for now) there are still many things hidden from her. If she wants to know more, she has to officially cross over, but if she does she can't come back - at least not as the spirit of her former life (i.e. as my grandmother).

When I ask her things like "Will Hekate be there to guide me upon my death?" she simply tells me "I don't know." because each person experiences death differently. From what she told me, Hekate could be in charge, but doesn't intervene directly and instead sends others to guide the dead, or she could not exist at all. Point is, she's dead, and just because she died she's not suddenly all-knowing. :lol:

I'm inclined to believe her, but I maintain an open mind. Who knows what will happen when we die. I have hunches, suspicions, and gut feelings, but for now I'm alive so I'll worry about being one of the living. [shrug]

Another thread derailed by me. Hooray!

[~Belladonna~]

Some Pagans love to talk about the Summer Lands (which sounds like, basically, a place where a lot of hippies end up).

Yay, I can't think of anything better than going to place where "a lot of hippies end up" :smile:

:flowers::hearteyes:fpeace:_cloud9_

Though I'm more inclined to think reincarnation is the way to go, and if there is a Summerlands then we don't settle there until we've been reincarnated a few times and know all we need to know and have learned what we need to learn.

[TygerTyger]

Yay, I can't think of anything better than going to place where "a lot of hippies end up" :smile:



There used to be a place where I live like that, it was called Trog Bar!

In fact I met my wife there, she was a hippychick, so for me it was a kind of heaven even though it was decorated like Hell with flames on the walls!

[Tullip Troll]

Sumer land is a place you die thenwhen you die in the summer lands you live here or a place like here. I think we are to limited in our thinking. Millions of planets and worlds outhere, possibly even many realms. If this is true where we go from here has millions of posibilities.

Also if the summer lands are where the hippeis are, strumming their guitars, comunal living, peace and pot, Im there ; )

[~Belladonna~]

There used to be a place where I live like that, it was called Trog Bar!

In fact I met my wife there, she was a hippychick, so for me it was a kind of heaven even though it was decorated like Hell with flames on the walls!

Sounds ace, man :fpeace::hehehehe:

There's a pub around here called the Pit and Pendulum :hahugh: and that's exactly the same, looks like a total Goth place with black walls with red flames all over, and old, black Vampiric <(if that's a word) furniture, etc, etc. but really it's full of hippies :smile:

Gotta love the hippies!!!

[David19]

I would like to get my hands on a copy of his works, but I usually wind up blowing my money on make-up instead of books for the past few years. Although, I did just buy Yasmine Galenorn's SOTM trilogy. :D

When I have money, I normally end up blowing it on either hair gel (a day without gel is hell for me!), or, in general, in bars. Hopefully, I can learn to reign my spending in (there's nothing like being a student to teach you how to survive on just one mars bar for a meal ;)).




I have 5 planets in Libra - I'm designed by the stars to be a slug. :foh:

I should have more energy, I'm a Leo, and we're fire signs and fire is normally energetic (that said, I do have a lot of energy, I just have trouble directing it).



Failing with pride! I like "Bedtime Story" though by Madonna, it has an ethereal quality about it.

However, I give my boyfriend no mercy over his Kswiss, his girly choice of alcoholic drinks, and how he olds raw carrots when he eats them. :2G:

Well, at least, your boyfriend can be camp enough for the 2 of you ;).



Afraid not. 4th edition isn't out yet, it's in the works. You can try the D&D Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page) for what information is now out, but a good portion of it may become 'history' in the D&D worlds since they're re-working everything. A spellplague supposedly occurs, several gods die, new ones rise to power. They always get rid of the older editions in a very apocalyptic way. :eyebrow:

Thanks for the link, I'll try to find the info :).




I attribute it to having so many things fall in the 8th House of my natal chart, including Saturn and Pluto (which are only 1 degree apart), and both in Libra (which makes Saturn exalted). I just seem to have an affinity for the dead - again by design of the stars. :hrmm:

That's actually quite cool, also, your Goddess is Hecate (I think anyway?), so it seems you definantly have an affinity with the dead (isn't Hecate also a Goddess of the dead as I've heard, in ancient times, many of the daemons she had serving her were the dead, not sure if that's true, though).

I actually don't know my natal chart, although I'd like to look into it more and learn more about astrology (have you got any tips to start?).


Just don't compare me to Sylvia Browne or that other guy whose name eludes me. I talk to my grandmother, not everyone else's. :rolleyes:

Don't worry I won't, and is the guy you're talking about Derek Acorah, who formally on Most Haunted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Haunted) or John Edward (http://www.johnedward.net/) from that show Crossing Over (I think that was the name?).

I know that you're for real (I've haven't really read anything by Sylvia Browne, but she seems like a really New Ager, who calls herself "Gnostic" for the name, but understands very little about what Gnostic means).

[David19]

buddhists believe in a type of plane that imo corresponds alot with the christian concept of hell, lake of fire, bodies reithing in sexual pain that is pleasures, forever suffering by holding onto there own regrets,greed,lust,gluttony,invy.
however in the buddhist concept of this, it is a deciples existence to ferry the suffering across the lake of birth & death, teaching those that existence through the senses itself is the illusion, and only through realisation of self and the moment can one free themselves from drowning in the sea of illusion.
the biggest difference between the buddhist concept of suffering in illusion of life, and suffering in hell for christianity isnt in the way its described but that buddhists believe this is a plan that we unconciously exist within thats reality, as opposed to christians and others who believe that one has to first die to reach this plane.
as reincarnation "other thread" i believe the concept is correct but that its not placed within the correct context, i dont believe in the dividing line between life and death when it comes to reincarnation and hell, i believe they exist simultaniously within the reality we exist within now.

I knew that in Buddhism, there were a variety of Hell realms, but I didn't know that was one way they saw Hell.

I'm a bit confused though, do Buddhists believe this reality/plane is hell in the same way the Gnostics thought this world was Hell or do you mean Hell as a place exists simultaniously within this realm, we just can't see it (like we can't see energy, etc).

Hope that made some sense.

[Aidron]

When I have money, I normally end up blowing it on either hair gel (a day without gel is hell for me!), or, in general, in bars. Hopefully, I can learn to reign my spending in (there's nothing like being a student to teach you how to survive on just one mars bar for a meal ;)).

I'm not a bar person. If I go, I spend the entire time standing around and looked at all night. If I meet the person's eyes, they immediately avert them as if they've seen a ghost. My guy swears it's because I'm too good looking and intimidating (the latter I've heard before), but I'm not buying it. I think I look above average at best. [shrugs]

And don't even talk to me about surviving on one Mars candy bar. I would die. My metabolism needs more than that to support me. :lol:



I should have more energy, I'm a Leo, and we're fire signs and fire is normally energetic (that said, I do have a lot of energy, I just have trouble directing it).

You may have more sedate things in your chart. My friend Kady (Kadynas on these boards, and an astrological know-it-all) has her Sun in Aries, but it's not glaringly obvious in spite of her grand Fire trine.



Well, at least, your boyfriend can be camp enough for the 2 of you ;).

Gods can he ever. :2G:





Thanks for the link, I'll try to find the info :).

Anytime. I may have to go look up some more info again myself. I can read it over and over again. 8O



That's actually quite cool, also, your Goddess is Hecate (I think anyway?), so it seems you definantly have an affinity with the dead (isn't Hecate also a Goddess of the dead as I've heard, in ancient times, many of the daemons she had serving her were the dead, not sure if that's true, though).

She is, and she is traditionally referred to as a psychopomp - one who guides the souls of the dead. She has many associations to the Underworld, but seems to have progressed into that more so as time has passed. She never was, in traditional literature, a goddess of the Underworld - that would be Hades, but simply served to guide those who had crossed over. In some works it is believed she dwelled on the Moon and had many daemons in her service.



I actually don't know my natal chart, although I'd like to look into it more and learn more about astrology (have you got any tips to start?).

Try astro.com (http://www.astro.com), which is what I use. You can probably find other links in the Astrology section here, but I prefer astro.com. Just be sure when you enter your information that your time of birth is not off by more than a few minutes (with the exact time being preferable). Even a few minutes can throw a chart off though, it all depends.



Don't worry I won't, and is the guy you're talking about Derek Acorah, who formally on Most Haunted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Haunted) or John Edward (http://www.johnedward.net/) from that show Crossing Over (I think that was the name?).

I know that you're for real (I've haven't really read anything by Sylvia Browne, but she seems like a really New Ager, who calls herself "Gnostic" for the name, but understands very little about what Gnostic means).

John Edwards is the guy I was thinking of. Him and Sylvia Browne leave a bad taste in my mouth. I personally can't swallow anyone's advice when they seem to be unable to admit they are wrong, something Sylvia is notorious for.

[David19]

Like Aidron, I don't believe or disbelieve in hell. It'll be hard to describe what hell could be because, in my opinion, it's the exact opposite of heaven. For example, a heaven might be filled with somebody's greatest desire. In hell, it will be filled with somebody's greatest fear.

I don't believe in a wonderous afterlife and places we go to. I believe that when we die, regardless of our lives actions, we simply become a part of the energy again and be recycled.


True, which is what makes me believe, if there is a Hell, an Abyss, or some type of plane in which great suffering is placed upon mortals that it or the entities which created it or dwell there can manipulate the plane so as to tailor it to each of us. After all, if you're going to have a Hell, why not make it the most fearsome any of us can imagine? Although in reality if such a place does exist I doubt we could even begin to fathom the horrors there.

I do, however, believe there are darker, more horrific planes in the cosmos. I wouldn't call them a Hell, but Abyss? Perhaps. If there aren't I would like to know where some of the things I have seen, heard, and experienced came from (unless of course it was my own imagination they sprang from).

I agree with you both, I think that if there is a Hell (or IMO, Hells), whoever rules it/them will taylor it to make it be completely horrible for you, as we each have different fears.



From what my grandmother has told me, which should be taken with a grain of salt because A.) I'm not perfect and neither is she and thus it would come as no surprise if things were miscommunicated B.) she could be withholding information from me or lying to ensure some form of secrecy is not broken or C.) I could be imagining her or speaking to another entity mascarading as her... so... from what she has told me, it goes down like so:

Upon death you are guided (guides differ for each individual, it may be a relative, a god, she doesn't know) to a place where you can safely review your life. She said she, like most people, upon reviewing her life slapped her proverbial forehead numerous times and thought "What was I doing? What's the matter with me?", but it must be done so we can learn and you can continue reviewing your life as often as you wish until you feel the lessons have sunk in. It's like school, you may miss some things, but the more you study the lessons the more you understand them. Furthermore, she was very abusive to her own children (long before I was born), but her temper evened out over time and she says that all of the baggage and angst and sadness we carry with us is subdued once we die - in other words when you die you just let go of all the things that may have been weighing you down on Earth. Beyond all this, she says that unless she officially crosses over (since she's remaining Earthbound, if you will, for now) there are still many things hidden from her. If she wants to know more, she has to officially cross over, but if she does she can't come back - at least not as the spirit of her former life (i.e. as my grandmother).

When I ask her things like "Will Hekate be there to guide me upon my death?" she simply tells me "I don't know." because each person experiences death differently. From what she told me, Hekate could be in charge, but doesn't intervene directly and instead sends others to guide the dead, or she could not exist at all. Point is, she's dead, and just because she died she's not suddenly all-knowing. :lol:

I'm inclined to believe her, but I maintain an open mind. Who knows what will happen when we die. I have hunches, suspicions, and gut feelings, but for now I'm alive so I'll worry about being one of the living. [shrug]

Another thread derailed by me. Hooray!

Don't worry about derailing the thread ;).

And, again, that's quite cool experience you've had, and it seems to match up with everything else I've read and heard about the dead - that just 'cause they're dead, doesn't meant they are necessarily any smarter or nicer than before (in other words, just 'cause Hitler is dead, doesn't mean he's now loves Jews and gays, etc). That seems interesting that the dead have to move on before they can gain any more knowledge and can't return, maybe it's to keep the dead from telling any of the living what happens or to stop the dead getting too much power or something.

Has your grandma indicated if everyone goes to the same afterlife or if it differs depending on your God(s) or path in life?.

[David19]

Yay, I can't think of anything better than going to place where "a lot of hippies end up" :smile:


Also if the summer lands are where the hippeis are, strumming their guitars, comunal living, peace and pot, Im there ; )

Personally, if it's a choice spending eternity in a Hell dimension or Summer Lands full of people singing Kum By aah and not bathing, I'm so choosing Hell!.

[Aidron]

I agree with you both, I think that if there is a Hell (or IMO, Hells), whoever rules it/them will taylor it to make it be completely horrible for you, as we each have different fears.

And for me, it would be an eternity of acne, no make-up, natural hair color, baggy clothes, no Witchcraft, "Coffee? On what plane does this exist?", and blazing fires which for some reason won't light the 9 billion cartons of smokes I have access to. :wah:





Don't worry about derailing the thread ;).

And, again, that's quite cool experience you've had, and it seems to match up with everything else I've read and heard about the dead - that just 'cause they're dead, doesn't meant they are necessarily any smarter or nicer than before (in other words, just 'cause Hitler is dead, doesn't mean he's now loves Jews and gays, etc). That seems interesting that the dead have to move on before they can gain any more knowledge and can't return, maybe it's to keep the dead from telling any of the living what happens or to stop the dead getting too much power or something.

Has your grandma indicated if everyone goes to the same afterlife or if it differs depending on your God(s) or path in life?.

I think when people move on (as in where my grandmother is), they do gain a greater sense of peace, but it's more of a "This is likely to happen." and not a necessity. This is probably why so many Earthbound spirits are still very vengeful, angry, and bitter, but also I don't think they've moved on in the same way as my grandmother has - perhaps they chose to ignore all guidance to help them get to where they need to be or they simply could not see it for their pain.

As for an afterlife, she doesn't know. She's told me point blank she has no idea what awaits her on the other side. She has ideas, and hunches, but no concrete information. She knows how to cross over (which would be expected), just not what is behind the proverbial secret door. She also has no clue if any gods exist, and then again, I'm not surprised. Just because she's dead doesn't mean she suddenly gains sight to see all things, the gods could still be hidden from her.

[David19]

I'm not a bar person. If I go, I spend the entire time standing around and looked at all night. If I meet the person's eyes, they immediately avert them as if they've seen a ghost. My guy swears it's because I'm too good looking and intimidating (the latter I've heard before), but I'm not buying it. I think I look above average at best. [shrugs]

I'm ok in bars if I'm with friends, but I'm not comfortable when it's with people I don't know too well. And I could never go into a bar on my own, 'cause 1) I'm not an alcoholic (at least wher I am, it's normally drunks that go to bars and pubs on their own) and 2) I'd just lack the confidence, I can't go to the cinema on my own either, 'cause I'd be paranoid everyone would be looking it me, which some of my friends find wierd as they can go to a movie on their own with no problem.


And don't even talk to me about surviving on one Mars candy bar. I would die. My metabolism needs more than that to support me. :lol:

For one day, I could (and have!) survived, but I tend to feel tired and really can't concentrate, which normally happens when I'm in a lecture. I also can't work fully if I haven't slept. Normally, I go to sleep at around 3 - 3.30 am, 'cause I find it difficult to sleep any earlier, and on a thursday and friday, I have to get up at around 8am. For the first few hours, I'm fine and full of energy then as the day sets in, I tend to lose interest and can't concentrate as much (especially on a friday when I have to be in lectures from 10am - around 5pm).



You may have more sedate things in your chart. My friend Kady (Kadynas on these boards, and an astrological know-it-all) has her Sun in Aries, but it's not glaringly obvious in spite of her grand Fire trine.

I'll try and see if she's willing to help, does she post a lot in the Astrology forum?.


Gods can he ever. :2G:

Sounds like a cool guy ;).



Anytime. I may have to go look up some more info again myself. I can read it over and over again. 8O

That usually happens when I'm really interested in something like this.



She is, and she is traditionally referred to as a psychopomp - one who guides the souls of the dead. She has many associations to the Underworld, but seems to have progressed into that more so as time has passed. She never was, in traditional literature, a goddess of the Underworld - that would be Hades, but simply served to guide those who had crossed over. In some works it is believed she dwelled on the Moon and had many daemons in her service.

That's what I've heard, I think I've also heard that, the dead who came to her (like her worshippers, probably) were turned into daemons in her service, but again, I'm not sure if that's true about the dead becoming daemons.

Hecate does really interest me, as not only does she sound like a cool and very interesting Goddess, but, in Greco-Egypt, she was syncretized with my Goddess, Ereshkigal. I'm not sure if I personally believe they are the same but I think they can be connected to each other or have some form of relationship.


Try astro.com (http://www.astro.com), which is what I use. You can probably find other links in the Astrology section here, but I prefer astro.com. Just be sure when you enter your information that your time of birth is not off by more than a few minutes (with the exact time being preferable). Even a few minutes can throw a chart off though, it all depends.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out, I think I know what time I was born, around 9pm although I'll try and check my birth certificate to be sure (do you also need the day you were born too?).



John Edwards is the guy I was thinking of. Him and Sylvia Browne leave a bad taste in my mouth. I personally can't swallow anyone's advice when they seem to be unable to admit they are wrong, something Sylvia is notorious for.

I used to watch John Edwards, and I'm not sure about him, a lot the things he said seem to basically be the same (like "I'm getting a someone who's old, young, etc"). Maybe he's partially psychic or does get visions, but he also might add in things too (that's just my own opinion, though).

As for Sylvia Browne, I've never read her stuff or seen her on TV, but she seems just like a typical New Ager.

[Aidron]

I'm ok in bars if I'm with friends, but I'm not comfortable when it's with people I don't know too well. And I could never go into a bar on my own, 'cause 1) I'm not an alcoholic (at least wher I am, it's normally drunks that go to bars and pubs on their own) and 2) I'd just lack the confidence, I can't go to the cinema on my own either, 'cause I'd be paranoid everyone would be looking it me, which some of my friends find wierd as they can go to a movie on their own with no problem.

I can go to a movie by myself or out to eat by myself. In fact, I thoroughly enjoy it. I don't even have to take a book or something to keep me occupied as a security blanket.



For one day, I could (and have!) survived, but I tend to feel tired and really can't concentrate, which normally happens when I'm in a lecture. I also can't work fully if I haven't slept. Normally, I go to sleep at around 3 - 3.30 am, 'cause I find it difficult to sleep any earlier, and on a thursday and friday, I have to get up at around 8am. For the first few hours, I'm fine and full of energy then as the day sets in, I tend to lose interest and can't concentrate as much (especially on a friday when I have to be in lectures from 10am - around 5pm).

Ugh. I can't stomach lectures. I don't want to hear anyone talk that much. Besides, I want to interject with questions and those are usually frowned upon during lectures. To Hell (pun intended) with that I say.



I'll try and see if she's willing to help, does she post a lot in the Astrology forum?.

Not really. She doesn't post here much anymore. She has an podcast she does with another guy concerning astrology (look up her page via mine and you should find it if you're interested). Red Rose, however, posts a lot in the astrology forum and she knows a good deal from what I've read of her posts. I just happen to have Kady's phone number, so that's why she's my go-to girl. :lol:




Sounds like a cool guy ;).


He'd like to think so. I make a point to correct him, though. I likes my men broken on the inside. :muwaha:




That usually happens when I'm really interested in something like this.

That's what I've heard, I think I've also heard that, the dead who came to her (like her worshippers, probably) were turned into daemons in her service, but again, I'm not sure if that's true about the dead becoming daemons.

Hecate does really interest me, as not only does she sound like a cool and very interesting Goddess, but, in Greco-Egypt, she was syncretized with my Goddess, Ereshkigal. I'm not sure if I personally believe they are the same but I think they can be connected to each other or have some form of relationship.

I've never even heard of Ereshkigal. I do, however, have an aversion to all things Egyptian. Sand, gold, pyramids... ew. Give me snow, tropical forests, mountains, anything but the atmosphere of Egypt.

I'm a hard polytheist, however, like in D&D at times, I have no issues in accepting the idea that some gods may masquerade in different cultures or pantheons as another entity or by another name. In D&D they do it to spread their influence and increase their power. I can't imagine any deity being so petty as to be above appearing differently to various cultures, but most often I prefer to consider each name a separate deity with each due its own respect.



Thanks for the link, I'll check it out, I think I know what time I was born, around 9pm although I'll try and check my birth certificate to be sure (do you also need the day you were born too?).

Day, time, and location, yes.



I used to watch John Edwards, and I'm not sure about him, a lot the things he said seem to basically be the same (like "I'm getting a someone who's old, young, etc"). Maybe he's partially psychic or does get visions, but he also might add in things too (that's just my own opinion, though).

He seems too vague for me. I have that issue with all psychics, even tarot readers. When I read I will drag every detail out of a card that I possibly can and I refuse to settle for less. I'm a bit out of practice right now, so the one I gave recently to someone on these forums wasn't as detailed as I would have liked.



As for Sylvia Browne, I've never read her stuff or seen her on TV, but she seems just like a typical New Ager.

I can't look at her. Her hair drives me absolutely insane. :eyebrow:

[Infinite Grey]

The Christian Hell has always intrigued me, though I specifically like the Catholic, Gnostic, early Protestant renditions of it. The Medieval Christian Occultism had some very interesting ideas regarding hell, they often believed there was a distinct hierarchical systems similar to many European Feudal Systems -- Emperors, Kings, Dukes, Marquise, Counts and so on. Around the 16th century there was also a belief that there were jobs and organisations in Hell.

For example:
Adramelech is supposedly the President of the Senate of the demons, the Chancellor of Hell and supervisor of Satan's wardrobe -- according to Collin de Plancy. Previous to this, Adramelech was found in Assyrian mythology as a Sun God
Alastor: The Executioner of Hell.
Beelzebub: Head of the Order of Flies.
Paimon: A scientist.
ect

Naturally these concepts were influenced by many older mythologies, notably Jewish and Zoroastrianism traditions.

I view religious mythologies as being only slightly different from other mythologies which I take interest in; D&D, Harry Potter, Tolkien, Comic, Movie, TV shows and so on. The only real difference is that people have and still do actually believe in the former en masse and have caused a great deal of trouble over the years as a result (among other related beliefs)

[David19]

And for me, it would be an eternity of acne, no make-up, natural hair color, baggy clothes, no Witchcraft, "Coffee? On what plane does this exist?", and blazing fires which for some reason won't light the 9 billion cartons of smokes I have access to. :wah:

That does sound like Hell, although I could do without coffee, as I don't really ever drink it (I had my first real coffee this Christmas when my mum was making some using some coffee she got for Christmas, it was good, but I could still go without).

My hell - no iPod, no internet, no witchcraft, no friends and no hair gel.




I think when people move on (as in where my grandmother is), they do gain a greater sense of peace, but it's more of a "This is likely to happen." and not a necessity. This is probably why so many Earthbound spirits are still very vengeful, angry, and bitter, but also I don't think they've moved on in the same way as my grandmother has - perhaps they chose to ignore all guidance to help them get to where they need to be or they simply could not see it for their pain.

Maybe they also have unfinished business, like a lot of earthbound ghosts might have been murder victims, perhaps suicides who are still depressed, those who died young (in my religion, the Sumerian one, those who died before their time are likely to haunt the living, at least if I'm remembering correctly) or some might just be assholes who want to cause trouble for the living or for specific people.



As for an afterlife, she doesn't know. She's told me point blank she has no idea what awaits her on the other side. She has ideas, and hunches, but no concrete information. She knows how to cross over (which would be expected), just not what is behind the proverbial secret door. She also has no clue if any gods exist, and then again, I'm not surprised. Just because she's dead doesn't mean she suddenly gains sight to see all things, the gods could still be hidden from her.

That would make sense, as just 'cause someone is dead, doesn't mean they are necessarily going to see the Gods, just like not all alive humans see Gods or any spirit.

[David19]

I can go to a movie by myself or out to eat by myself. In fact, I thoroughly enjoy it. I don't even have to take a book or something to keep me occupied as a security blanket.

That I couldn't do, I'd just be paranoid people would see me alone and, either directly or indirectly, make fun of me.



Ugh. I can't stomach lectures. I don't want to hear anyone talk that much. Besides, I want to interject with questions and those are usually frowned upon during lectures. To Hell (pun intended) with that I say.

Normally, I try and sit in the back, and if I'm too bored, I just start daydreaming, usually about things related to magic, or I may have to keep myself from falling asleep.

Right now, in my friday lectures, the lecturers are always making us do debates, so we have to prepare some info, which really sucks, as I'm not that confident in speaking in front of people, I'm improving though (plus, it just means more hard work).



Not really. She doesn't post here much anymore. She has an podcast she does with another guy concerning astrology (look up her page via mine and you should find it if you're interested). Red Rose, however, posts a lot in the astrology forum and she knows a good deal from what I've read of her posts. I just happen to have Kady's phone number, so that's why she's my go-to girl. :lol:

Thanks, I'll look into that.




He'd like to think so. I make a point to correct him, though. I likes my men broken on the inside. :muwaha:

Ahh, your poor boyfriend ;).




I've never even heard of Ereshkigal. I do, however, have an aversion to all things Egyptian. Sand, gold, pyramids... ew. Give me snow, tropical forests, mountains, anything but the atmosphere of Egypt.

Ereshkigal is the Sumerian Goddess of the Underworld (here's one of her more famous myths called Nergal and Ereshkigal (http://templeofsumer.org/myth01.html)). She, IMO, is a very cool Goddess with a lot of associations, although one of her more famous, again IMO, is that she also seems to be a Goddess of BDSM, or at least enjoys it (if you read the myth, you'll know why).


I'm a hard polytheist, however, like in D&D at times, I have no issues in accepting the idea that some gods may masquerade in different cultures or pantheons as another entity or by another name. In D&D they do it to spread their influence and increase their power. I can't imagine any deity being so petty as to be above appearing differently to various cultures, but most often I prefer to consider each name a separate deity with each due its own respect.

I'm a hard polytheist too, I believe each God is seperate from each other, although I do think there are some Gods that are the same in different cultures, like, for example, the Akkadian, Babylonian and Sumerian Gods are pretty much the same (the Babylonian religion just has a different emphasis on Marduk and also has Tiamet).

Personally, I believe that just 'cause a God comes from a certain source, doesn't mean it's the same God, for example, a lot of people point out a lot of the Greek Gods originally come from the Middle East, which is true (for example, Apollo has his origins with the Sumerian sun God, Utu, Aphrodite and possibly Athene with Inanna, etc), but that doesn't mean that Utu is Apollo, any more than your the same as your grandma or grandfather or any more than the Greeks, Romans, Norse, Celts, Indians, etc are all the same just 'cause they all come from the same Indo-European source, etc (no idea if that made any sense).


Day, time, and location, yes.

Cool, thanks :).



He seems too vague for me. I have that issue with all psychics, even tarot readers. When I read I will drag every detail out of a card that I possibly can and I refuse to settle for less. I'm a bit out of practice right now, so the one I gave recently to someone on these forums wasn't as detailed as I would have liked.

I've got some tarot cards but haven't really used them, when I get some more time, I'm going to learn to use them.

[David19]

The Christian Hell has always intrigued me, though I specifically like the Catholic, Gnostic, early Protestant renditions of it. The Medieval Christian Occultism had some very interesting ideas regarding hell, they often believed there was a distinct hierarchical systems similar to many European Feudal Systems -- Emperors, Kings, Dukes, Marquise, Counts and so on. Around the 16th century there was also a belief that there were jobs and organisations in Hell.

For example:
Adramelech is supposedly the President of the Senate of the demons, the Chancellor of Hell and supervisor of Satan's wardrobe -- according to Collin de Plancy. Previous to this, Adramelech was found in Assyrian mythology as a Sun God
Alastor: The Executioner of Hell.
Beelzebub: Head of the Order of Flies.
Paimon: A scientist.
ect

Naturally these concepts were influenced by many older mythologies, notably Jewish and Zoroastrianism traditions.


That's what I really like about Christian mythology, particularly about the Christian Hell, and I'd be curious to know about the different perceptions and versions of it within Christianity (BTW, I don't know much about the Gnostic version, I know some of them at least saw this world as Hell, but that's about it, would you mind going into any more detail about the Gnostic version of Hell).

[Infinite Grey]

That's what I really like about Christian mythology, particularly about the Christian Hell, and I'd be curious to know about the different perceptions and versions of it within Christianity (BTW, I don't know much about the Gnostic version, I know some of them at least saw this world as Hell, but that's about it, would you mind going into any more detail about the Gnostic version of Hell).

:T which ones?

The Ophites Believed the God of the New Testament was apposed and at odds with the God of the Old Testament, and all the villains in the OT were actually heroes... most notably the Serpent in the Garden of Eden (as it tried to bring knowledge to Adam and Eve). There were several sects too; Naasseners, Sethians, Mandaeans (these guys are still around), Perates and Borborites .

The Cainites worshipped Cain because he brought murder so that we may deny it and have a greater chance a redemption.

And so on...

The Gnostic traditions only really agreed on several points;
1> Jesus was not the son of god, but was a saviour.
2> Knowledge is paramount.
3> There is no literal hell, it was a state of being... namely Ignorance. They would often use metaphors like being a slave, or walking in the darkness, being asleep in a nightmare, of being drunk, and even of being dead. It is possible to be redeemed, so it isn't quite right to say this world is hell, and it is a state of being.

As to demons, well... there is the Demiurge (YHWH), the creator and he is evil. And then there is the supreme being beyond him.

In some instances (Egyptian Gnostic Basilideans) he is referred to as Abraxas, and is both the Demiurge and the Supreme Being.

Errrr, basically everything bad is Demiurge's mischief; and that is basically anything material or related to the material.

[mtpathy]

I knew that in Buddhism, there were a variety of Hell realms, but I didn't know that was one way they saw Hell.

I'm a bit confused though, do Buddhists believe this reality/plane is hell in the same way the Gnostics thought this world was Hell or do you mean Hell as a place exists simultaniously within this realm, we just can't see it (like we can't see energy, etc).

Hope that made some sense.

buddhists believe in karma, but only karma as so far as it roots us to our emotions, memory and in turn our emotions,memory tie us to what we define as ourselves.
think of "you" as you define yourself to your emotions as a cloudy day, you dont know that the clouds are binding, only that you feel this, and you feel that, after all that is "self". now part those clouds and see the sky without the filtering emotions to define yourself by and that is existence without karma.
when you find this truth there is not root of causation to bind you to the definition of self, therfore no karma. and you exist outside of the wheel of reincarnation which i personelly define as "hell".
anyways this is only by my experience, if you ask another buddhist "i dont define myself as one anyways" im sure you would get a completely different story.
keep in mind that my experience in buddism is stepped in zen, and i practice zen with kaos theory, my practice is simply that all things that can be experienced by the senses are inwards, as well as all things that can be experienced inwards exist by the senses "outwards", the middle path for me is the "act" of existing both inside and outside of self which i believe to be the truth and magick of the moment, as well as i believe this to be the truth of kaos.

[Collinsky]

I was a Christian my whole life, until last October, and I never once believed in the doctrine of Hell. (Or the immediate ascension of souls to Heaven, either, but that's a different topic.) So while the vast majority of Christian believers DO hold that doctrine, there are some who do not.

What I believe now is that heaven and hell are mostly states that we experience here on Earth - Heaven being full connection with the Divine, and Hell being separation from it. And of course the whole spectrum in between. I do think there is some sort of life after this one, but I can only assume that it is a continuation of that... that whatever happens to our souls/consciousness/whatever, experiencing the Divine IS experiencing Heaven, and the absence of that is Hell. Whether that's through reincarnation, or something that happens on another dimension... I don't know.

As far as the Christian Hell goes... there is a lot to that that just isn't known by the average churchgoer these days. For instance, in Gehenna was where the bodies were tossed in a pit to be burned. The "lake of fire"... and you can imagine the mothers back then saying, "You better listen to me or you'll end up in the lake of fire!" Everything in the Bible was written fully in the context of the time... knowing that, I would be pretty skeptical about taking passages literally.

Of course many religions have beliefs about an underworld that can be related to the idea of Hell... so it is interesting to ponder.

[thought_on_a_wind]

look in my signature at one of the Neitchze quotes... that goes a long way to 'splainin my view of that place... If it's real, then I'll be in good company to say the least.

[Xentor]

we just can't see it (like we can't see energy, etc). Hope that made some sense. How is it that you don't see energy? Do you not have eyes? When thunderstorms send lightning bolts down from the clouds, do you not perceive them, blink, and hide?

[Lunacie]

I think Dante wrote a "horror flick" basically. There aren't that many references to Hell in the bible and only one or two mention anything like a "pit of fire". That may even be from the book of Revelation which is like a nightmare that someone recorded.

I think the basic concept of hell is spending eternity apart from the divine, supposedly a very cold and lonely and hopeless kind of existence.

[David19]

How is it that you don't see energy? Do you not have eyes? When thunderstorms send lightning bolts down from the clouds, do you not perceive them, blink, and hide?

When said energy, I meant like the ones we can't see, like we can't see radiation, we can't see electricity, for the most part (for example, the energy running into my computer right now is invisible to me), etc.

[Xentor]

When said energy, I meant like the ones we can't see, like we can't see radiation, we can't see electricity, for the most part (for example, the energy running into my computer right now is invisible to me), etc.

Radiation can be made visible and audible. Electricity we can see... how do you think a traditional television works? What do you think lightning bolts are? The fact that you can't see the stuff in your computer is because it's too little. But when you perceive the light from your monitor, it's energy you're seeing. And when your laptop sits on your knees, burning a hole in your pants, it's energy you're feeling. And if you take that battery and place your tongue on the electrodes, you bet that you will feel the tingle.

So maybe, just maybe, you aren't talking about energy at all?

[Rosetta Morrigan]

IMO, nothing on the otherside is physical and therefore one cannot be thrown into a lake of fire and have hot pokers shoved up their asses for the rest of eternity. However, I do believe in a mental Hell. It's a state of mind you're put into, I suppose. Shit- I'm so bad at explaining things. I tried anyhow...

[Lunacie]

I don't know if "the other side" is exactly mental either. Mostly it's just spiritual, eh?

[thought_on_a_wind]

Another explanation of hell is as follow-

A cold steak served with a warm beer, and being forced to watch Benny Hinn or Pat Robertson on T.V. for eternity...

[plumedsnake]

I think Dante wrote a "horror flick" basically.


I read somewhere recently that medieval people just enjoyed scaring the faeces out of each other. It was no different than people enjoying horror movies today. The excitement was the same. Only difference is that they went to church to get that fix. It could probably be best described as the Golden Age of Horror.

[thought_on_a_wind]

I read somewhere recently that medieval people just enjoyed scaring the faeces out of each other. It was no different than people enjoying horror movies today. The excitement was the same. Only difference is that they went to church to get that fix. It could probably be best described as the Golden Age of Horror.
Yeah, like the Nuckleavee... I definitely wouldn't want to run into that thing...

[Lunacie]

Another explanation of hell is as follow-

A cold steak served with a warm beer, :blech:


and being forced to watch Benny Hinn :foh:


or Pat Robertson on T.V. for eternity... :shaker:

[Xentor]

IMO, nothing on the otherside is physical and therefore one cannot be thrown into a lake of fire and have hot pokers shoved up their asses for the rest of eternity

Hmm... once you arrive on the other side, don't you think that physicality matters little?

[Dark_Tezcatlipoca]

.... and have hot pokers shoved up their asses for the rest of eternity. .


That would be a heaven for some.:T

[Lady White Tree]

I do not think the notion of Hell need mean anything more than final and irretrievable separation from God.

[BearDancing]

I too believe that "hell" is separation from spirit "God"....though I do not believe it is irreversable.....connection to spirit = possibilites of heaven ......... seperate from spirit = progressional hell

[Lady White Tree]

I too believe that "hell" is separation from spirit "God"....though I do not believe it is irreversable.....connection to spirit = possibilites of heaven ......... seperate from spirit = progressional hell

Irreversible separation from the Source happens at the point when an individual's incarnate Spirit willfully severs the connection with the Higher Self, and the soul itself is extinguished. All residual positive energy is then returned to the Source and a new soul is born.

No "hell" can be reached while ever an individual maintains the connection to the Higher Self. At all points of incarnate existence spiritual progression towards union with the Source is attainable, life after life. No matter how bad things get.

[BearDancing]

at the point when an individual's incarnate Spirit willfully severs the connection with the Higher Self, and the soul itself is extinguished.

how can a person sever the connection with the higher self....how is a sould extinguished

[Lady White Tree]

If an individual lives loveless (by this I mean amoral, selfish, violent, destructive) lives over and over again, consciously deciding (prior to birth) to live such lives, eventually the resonant energy of the incarnate Spirit becomes completely incompatible with the radiant energy of the Higher Self and the connecting thread is snapped. For this to occur, an individual has to revel in causing pain to others, feel and give absolutely no love to anyone or anything, repeatedly, life after life until their energy is imperceptible to the energies of the Higher planes.

This is information comes from Theosophical dissertations on the Astral Plane.

[BearDancing]

If an individual lives loveless (by this I mean amoral, selfish, violent, destructive) lives over and over again, consciously deciding (prior to birth) to live such lives, eventually the resonant energy of the incarnate Spirit becomes completely incompatible with the radiant energy of the Higher Self and the connecting thread is snapped. For this to occur, an individual has to revel in causing pain to others, feel and give absolutely no love to anyone or anything, repeatedly, life after life until their energy is imperceptible to the energies of the Higher planes.

This is information comes from Theosophical dissertations on the Astral Plane.

I am interested in this concept but I have no idea what or where to find the Theosophical dissertations on the Astral Plane...more input please..

I have never thought that any soul would actually decide before birth that it was going to live loveless....I always thought that they went into the life seeking love...and possibly through thier personal cirmumstances learnt lovelessness...and chose the path of least resistance...being "evil" per say...

So what happens to the soul after it is ripped from the higher spirit.....are you saying that our higher spirit is where we accuamualte all of our experieinces and the soul is the "truth" spark from God that stays with us...I have never thought that our resonate spirit is different than our higher self..or am I mixing them all up.....:weirdsmil

[Lady White Tree]

[quote=FairieSpirit;3725101]I am interested in this concept but I have no idea what or where to find the Theosophical dissertations on the Astral Plane...more input please..

There are many books on the Astral written by members of the Theosophical tradition. In MW's COT you can navigate to quite a lot of theosphical documentation.

I have never thought that any soul would actually decide before birth that it was going to live loveless....I always thought that they went into the life seeking love...and possibly through thier personal cirmumstances learnt lovelessness...and chose the path of least resistance...being "evil" per say...

Souls that choose negative paths over and over do not migrate to the light after finding themselves in the Astral after physical death. Instead they will enjoy interfering with the physical world from the Astral (see vampirism) waiting for an open individual to hijack (see possession). They do not experience any of the loving and joyful energy that comes from the Source as they reject all attempts to be reached.

At any point an individual such as this can turn back towards the Light. But some do not.

So what happens to the soul after it is ripped from the higher spirit.....are you saying that our higher spirit is where we accuamualte all of our experieinces and the soul is the "truth" spark from God that stays with us...I have never thought that our resonate spirit is different than our higher self..or am I mixing them all up.....:weirdsmil

For me, my Higher Self is my true eternal self. The HS "is the true self. The enlightened, "actual" persona of the individual as opposed to what the person seems to be or thinks they are." (reiki definition)

My personal opinion that once the connection to the Higher Self is severed, the soul ceases to exist. I think, though I'm not sure, this is how Shades arise. Once a Shade, can you make a come back? I'd like to think so.
:coffin:

[MetropolisGott]

My...personal view on the afterlife is a rather odd one. It was hard for me to conceive of a Heaven and Hell in the typical sense when Reincarnation made a hell of a lot more sense to me.

So, essentially, I believe that Hell is merely the state of ignorance of our divine nature, and that we're doomed to migration of our soul to future lives until we wholly realize this. We essentially have to pass through the "fire" of living on Earth to cleanse ourselves of worldly passions, and material goods. Some of us just take longer than others. So, in a way, we're in hell now ;)

Heaven is achieved through full realization and acceptance of our divine nature, and oneness with the One/God(dess)/Universe/Tao/whatever you feel like naming it.

[Darth Brooks]

My...personal view on the afterlife is a rather odd one. It was hard for me to conceive of a Heaven and Hell in the typical sense when Reincarnation made a hell of a lot more sense to me.

So, essentially, I believe that Hell is merely the state of ignorance of our divine nature, and that we're doomed to migration of our soul to future lives until we wholly realize this. We essentially have to pass through the "fire" of living on Earth to cleanse ourselves of worldly passions, and material goods. Some of us just take longer than others. So, in a way, we're in hell now ;)

Heaven is achieved through full realization and acceptance of our divine nature, and oneness with the One/God(dess)/Universe/Tao/whatever you feel like naming it.

Your view doesn't sound so odd to me. Actually it really sounds quite Gnostic. :)

[MetropolisGott]

Your view doesn't sound so odd to me. Actually it really sounds quite Gnostic. :)
I was actually thinking I had read of a very similar idea on a Gnostic site, but was having trouble finding it while making the post. I actually like that idea from Gnosticism and the fact that they are actively seeking enlightenment/gnosis, and I think I'd enjoy reading some Gnostic works. My only concern with the philosophy is the Dualism that seems to be at the core of Gnosticism.

[Darth Brooks]

Well the trouble with dualism is that there's all kinds of dualisms; I would argue that some are bad but some are okay. Like the Wiccan dualism between a cooperative God and Goddess, well that's a good dualism I think, because it says "Okay there's two sides but they're both good." Which sort of dualism do you mean exactly? Do you mean the more ontological kind of dualism, like between matter and spirit? Or do you mean the more theological dualism, like between the Gnostic God and the Demiurge? Either way, I would agree that both are problematic for me.