Lilith

[Lavender]

Does anyone know anything about Lilith?

Came across a couple of sites about her. Interesting stuff. Some say she's the demonic first wife of Adam & others say she's a feminist before her time. (Sorry for the simplistic approach here.) Needless to say, I was quite fascinated by what I've found. It seems the more I look into her, the more questions I have. I guess it's a GOOD THING! (sorry...been watching too many Martha Stewart reruns :bad: )

[Arkana]

Despite the fact that it is not very fine to take the name of Goddesses, the terminus 'demonic first wife of Adam' (especially 'demonic') was a Christian invention. If you do not only read 'the' Bible ('bible' is coming from the latin 'biblos' and only means BOOK - so in a special meaning EVERY book is a Bible!!!) but also the Essenian Writings and the Qumran Rolls, you will notice, that the so called Christian God, Jahweh, was in former times only an unimportant provincial god, which only came to a big name and importance through good performance, 'marketing' and propaganda. This Jahweh, a former God in the shape of a bull (funny connections to the story about the dance around the golden calf!), has had in earlier times a wife - with the name...Lilith!
Maybe that Jahweh only has been jealous about Lilith when she first met Adam, maybe he had reasons for that because she had sexual intercourse with Adam...
I think therefore he threw Lilith out and hated Adam and treated him afterwards so bad and that the story with the funny little apple was only a bad excuse for his un-godily behavior...
Stuff to think about, isn't it?
Arkana

[Mairwen]

Adam tossed Lilith out of the Garden and then God created Eve. The problem with Lilith is that she didn't like being "beneath" Adam (aka missionary) during sex ~ she preferred being on top. Too, she had a mind of her own and used it. That didnt' sit well with either Adam or God. So they decided that if woman was MADE from Adam that he could dominate her.

Read "The Book of Lilith".

And FWIW, I don't like her being called a demon either. She is called that because the Church didn't like ti that a woman was capable of independent thought and action.

[Amethyst Rose]

Hehe.... I'm reading a great book that had a section on Lilith, and you're right, she's very interesting.

So this is what I've learned:

There are two different aspects of Lilith. The first aspect, the "demoness," is a Hebrew belief. She was the first wife of Adam, and she corrupted him (sexually), and begot children from him by stealing his semen. It is also believed that when babies die, it is because of Lilith.... she stands over their beds and steals their breath. This is especially true if the children are "a child of Lilith", meaning they were born out of adultery or fornication. Any child born out of illicit sex belongs to Lilith, and if she wants to she can come and claim them. It is also believed that Lilith was actually the serpent that tempted Eve.
The second aspect of Lilith is as a sexual goddess/spirit, (Shakti). In this form, Lilith is known to come to men at night and have sex with them. As an incubus, (when men don't welcome her to their bed), she takes their sexual energy and semen and creates children of her own, by appearing to women as a man, (a succubus), and depositing the man's seed in the woman's womb. As a spiritual lover, (when she is welcomed), she is very giving and sensual.

Anyway.... that's the short version :)

[Lavender]

Originally posted by Mairwen
Adam tossed Lilith out of the Garden and then God created Eve. The problem with Lilith is that she didn't like being "beneath" Adam (aka missionary) during sex ~ she preferred being on top. Too, she had a mind of her own and used it. That didnt' sit well with either Adam or God. So they decided that if woman was MADE from Adam that he could dominate her.

Read "The Book of Lilith".

And FWIW, I don't like her being called a demon either. She is called that because the Church didn't like ti that a woman was capable of independent thought and action.

Firstly, I must apologize...didn't mean to offend anyone by using the term "demonic". I think I meant to use the term demoness. It seems that the web sites I've found gave pretty well the same info here. And I do understand that the term was given to Her by the Church. I prefer the version of her being a "feminist before her time". I was quite fascinated by what I've found on Lilith so far. Most references I've come across in books have been quite tantalizing. If you read between the lines, yes, I agree She was give a bad reputation to suit the needs of the Church and other orthodox religions. The deeper I go, the more I admire Lilith for her independence and strength and the way she stood up for herself. The information I've found on the internet don't really tell you the sources of their info. Without that, I can't help but wonder how much of it is the author's interpretation or how bias this info is?

Thanks for the recomendation of the book, Mairwen. I'll check it out at the library tomorrow. Do you know the author?

[Arkana]

What Mairwen wrote is partially true, partially only assumed. The problem in answering/arguing (against) a legend is, not to create a new legend. The problem with the 'Book of Lilith' is that it is an invention of the past century. Partially good research, good argueing (!) but not perfect and not sufficient enough. But, indeed, I appreciate the aims of the author. That one of the causes of the threwing out of Lilith by Jehovah and Adam was, that she had intercourse on top of Adam is only an assume, even a nice one. But a woman must not stringend dominate a man, only because she is sitting on him. I, for myself, d o like have sitting a woman on top of me but do n o t feeling dominated about this. This is only one of the many games men and women can play due to their holy and jolly 'duties' for the Goddess and her Companion. I think, domination - in what direction ever - is a humanistic, ethical crime. Neither the man nor the women should dominate the other. Only if there is a balance, understanding, respect and love (best in this order), then they will live together (not only in pairs if they do not want to do so) in harmony.
That the Hebrew people weren't able to live in harmony shows the need to create always new legends to throw persons out who did not fit into their ethnical pattern. This hasn't changed until todays Christianity. Jesus would rotate in his grave (or in his place in heaven, anyway) if he would see in which direction his teachings turned...
Oh yes, Jesus would have been a very good witch with his ethics...

[Arkana]

Thanks for the information, Vinga! Sounds a little bit ridiculous, this system, but if it is the way it is...

So, let's return to Lilith and see what's coming on comments...

[bananabrain]

ok. has anyone here heard the term 'midrash'? the midrash is a collection of *allegorical* texts, dating back at least two thousand years, that attempt to make sense of contradictions implied by the text of the Torah ('pentateuch'). when i say the text, i mean the original hebrew. the 'official' midrash was compiled from all the stuff that was available at the time, but the *art* of midrash (ie interpretative glosses on the text) continues today.

however, midrash does NOT, repeat not, necessarily have any authoritative (ie legal in the sense of jewish religious law) standing unless it was written by a religious authority and has talmudic and other textual backing. thus any references you may find to 'there too Ha-LiLiT will find rest' must be interpreted in the light of the [strict] rules governing jewish textual exegesis. in short, to waltz straight into a story which may or may not have legal implications and draw your own conclusions about the way judaism views gender issues in the modern sense is utterly futile. if you want to get some input from someone who is very knowledgeable about textual issues and is an (academic) authority on these matters, i suggest you have a look at eliezer segal's page here. he works for the university of calgary.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/950206_Lilith.html

which is an excellent, comprehensive guide to the issue from someone who is, as i try to be myself, sympathetic to issues of gender. if you wish to see what looks to me like a feminist opinion which is more rounded and comprehensive than most of the self-congratulatory diatribes i am accustomed to seeing on this particular subject, i found another source here:

http://members.spree.com/foulfiend/lilith.html

however, i cannot speak for its provenance, nor do i necessarily agree with the opinions of the author on this or other issues (although i usually tend to strongly agree with segal).

finally, if you're going to pass judgement on 'the hebrew people', i suggest you check what we actually say about stuff rather than assuming we agree with the church fathers about everything. the theology of blame and competitive victimhood (what i call the 'more-persecuted-than-thou' tendency) is not something that gets one anywhere fast. although there is no shortage of mccarthyist spleen vented against the Big Bad Monotheists on neo-pagan websites (in many cases well-deserved in terms of behaviour if not necessarily in terms of theology), it is rare that i come across anyone who gives judaism credit for things like its very strict laws on social provision and inclusion or environmental protection. everyone thinks they know about 'an eye for an eye' (although they don't) but nobody has ever heard of the fact that jewish law permitted divorce and condemned and punished marital rape. nor are they aware of things like the ability of a jewish wife to divorce her husband for not satisfying her sexually (which is in the small print for the marriage laws) or indeed for having bad breath and other unpleasant personal characteristics.

hope the links are of some use.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Lavender]

Wow! You're certainly no "bananabrain". I will check out these websites as well. Welcome to Mystic Wicks.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by bananabrain
in short, to waltz straight into a story which may or may not have legal implications and draw your own conclusions about the way judaism views gender issues in the modern sense is utterly futile.

That's what I was going by. I mean. Most everything I know about Lilith is from the Christian viewpoint. And yes, gender issues/roles play a MAJOR part of this story. But you must look at the culture a story/situation is placed in in order to fully understand it completely. Just because I get up every morning and brush my teeth, and I shave my legs and under arms occasionally, doesn't mean someone was doing the same thing 20,000 years ago ~ and probably wasn't. People, societies and cultures do evolve ~ it's the nature of the universe for things not to remain static. I have a friend who's an archaeologist ~ and believe me, you have know about the time period you're working in/with in order not to make false assumptions or jump to the wrong conclusions. Think about it ~ in 5,000 when someone digs up your house, what are they going to find? What are they going to think your things were used for?


the theology of blame and competitive victimhood (what i call the 'more-persecuted-than-thou' tendency) is not something that gets one anywhere fast.

Oh, I agree!

Thanks for posting Bananabrain!

[bananabrain]

what our tradition has to say about lilith doesn't exactly let her off the hook - or adam, or eve. although our understanding of the garden of eden episode is *totally* different from anything connected with 'original sin' or 'the fall'. i understand the entirely laudable desire to turn her into some kind protofeminist heroine, but there is, contrary to your expectations perhaps, no shortage of alternatives in the 'old testament' and the Talmud, like the seven prophetesses. i'll have a look for you if you like. incidentally, there is a movement on the more religiously left wing of my community (in the UK some good friends of mine are involved with this) to create new 'women's midrash', which is called the 'half empty bookcase' - the implication of that is presumably pretty obvious. so the idea of a 'book of lilith' of modern midrash would fit into that just fine - except that i myself wouldn't be setting up lilith as such a paragon.

one of the things that may not have come across effectively is that far from her being associated with, if you like, unfettered sensuality, she is more associated with sex as a weapon - sterile, loveless, oppressive and mechanical, pornographic; entirely opposed to the jewish view of sex, which is that when done right, it is about the closest thing you can get to union with the Divine. in fact awful lot of sexual imagery is used for this, take the song of songs for example. it is also highly prevalent in the symbolism of the sabbath.

in jewish thought, lilith is associated with sexual waste and impurity, so this should be avoided as much as possible, using similar techniques to those used for the redirection of energy in tantra. it is thought by various kabbalistic authorities on the subject that sexual/spiritual energy (ie sperm) that is misdirected ends up as 'demon children' that accuse you; rather like the 3fold law in fact. not real children, i hasten to add. it is said to be 'lilith' that collects all the wasteful energy from your life and forms it into the things that come back at you as a consequence of your actions. that's why as a figure she gets such a bad press from our sages. i hope that doesn't upset too many people!

btw, at times i actually rather like jesus (insofar as we can tell that any of the stuff attributed to him was actually his), to tell you the truth - he did seem to get up people's noses rather, which is never a bad thing. if you look at the sermon on the mount, too, there's nothing in there that rabbinic judaism has a problem with. on the other hand, i have nothing but contempt for paul - what a misogynist git. in the words of the judean people's front (boy, do the pythons know us!) - SPLITTER!!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tigerwallah]

one of the things that may not have come across effectively is that far from her being associated with, if you like, unfettered sensuality, she is more associated with sex as a weapon - sterile, loveless, oppressive and mechanical, pornographic; entirely opposed to the jewish view of sex, which is that when done right, it is about the closest thing you can get to union with the Divine. in fact awful lot of sexual imagery is used for this, take the song of songs for example. it is also highly prevalent in the symbolism of the sabbath.

in jewish thought, lilith is associated with sexual waste and impurity, so this should be avoided as much as possible, using similar techniques to those used for the redirection of energy in tantra. it is thought by various kabbalistic authorities on the subject that sexual/spiritual energy (ie sperm) that is misdirected ends up as 'demon children' that accuse you; rather like the 3fold law in fact. not real children, i hasten to add. it is said to be 'lilith' that collects all the wasteful energy from your life and forms it into the things that come back at you as a consequence of your actions. that's why as a figure she gets such a bad press from our sages. i hope that doesn't upset too many people!

btw, at times i actually rather like jesus (insofar as we can tell that any of the stuff attributed to him was actually his[/B][/QUOTE]

I've found that Jewish and Christian texts both "demonize" women when they are in the sexual drivers seat. Goddess worshippers held women to be the dominant gender. This was quite the thorn in the ambitious patriarcal groups' side. The old Testament is a very powerful tool in cutting a woman to size - from making Eve - the symbolism of womanhood, into a sneaky, power hungry bitch who's actions cause all of humanity to lose favor with this cranky god, and begets women pain in childbirth (all female animals experience pain in childbirth. Did Yahweh get so pissed at Eve that he punished female bunnies, cougars, whales, etc.?) This degradation of women continues all through the Old Testament. So, by the time we get around to the new testament and Paul, well, mistreatment, disrespect, and subjugation of women is pretty old hat.

In a matriarcal society, wealth and power was passed from mother to daughter. Since the woman had numerous sexual partners (which was not immoral until male domination came into play) the father could not be proved. So, males were left out of the will. Kings were only symbolic figure heads. Like lions, the females held the land. As patriarcal groups began to form, the only way to gain power and land was to controll the sexual activities of the women - so that they could control the wealth. Don't kid yourself. Your "sacred" texts are not from Yahweh. Yahweh himself is just a pawn in a political game. See for yourself, the game worked. We have been seen as property for thousands of years. Women have just recently gotten the strength to regain some of the power they once lost.
The great civilizations began holding a woman as their deity. As male dominated groups moved in, male gods were introduced as the husbands of these goddesses. Eventually, two, powerful, male dominant groups (the Jews and Muslems) introduced the idea of one male god,and then made the people renounce their "false" gods - which were being worshipped for thousands of years before the idea os a single god was ever introduced. That is why Idol worship is so bad. It is historical evidence of the goddess. There is no historical evidence of Yahweh. So, to cover up, they made using idols wrong so that they have an excuse when no symbols of yahweh are found. In actuallity, the first time anyone ever suggests that there is a single deity is Akkhenaten, father (or father in law) of King Tutenkahmun. This wasn't until mid 13th century, BC. And it wasn't until 300 years later that we see Moses, and hear of a new God. Of course, this is in written text. There is no archeological evidence that Moses existed, or that any of the events in Exodus ever occured.

[amberlaine]

Your "sacred" texts are not from Yahweh. Yahweh himself is just a pawn in a political game. See for yourself, the game worked. We have been seen as property for thousands of years. Women have just recently gotten the strength to regain some of the power they once lost.

Oh my God. What chutzpah you've got there! I do see what you're saying, but a little tact and a bit of respect wouldn't hurt in getting your point across.

Now. With reference to "matriarchy"--I believe the term you are looking for is "matrifocal" as in, "woman centered" where lineage and inheritance went through the mother's line. Matriarchy, as far as we know, has never existed. (For a bit of info on matriarchy, I direct you to http://www.mothersmagic.net/Goddess/ecofeminism.html and http://www.mothersmagic.net/witches/wicca/pdf/matriarchy.pdf .

Also, be careful to note that Yahweh did not give woman pain in childbirth due to her sin. He *increased* her pain in childbirth due to her sin. I think you will note that human women tend to suffer pain in childbirth more than other animals. (And I dont say that as a CHristian or Jew as I am neither, but its important to get out theology straight).

I tend to agree that the ABrahamic (just for you, BB darling) religions do tend to lok unpon women's sexuality somewhat unfavorably. However, i think its important to be able to seapareate tradition and history from modern practitioners. Just because the blokes who wrote the Bible had their fingers in teh pot screwing it up for us women, this does not mean that modern Jews and Christians look at women askance when it comes to sex. To blame the decendents for the fault of the anenstors is a weighty problem. Damn you, you pagan human-sacraficing heathan! (ouch, that stings. You probably don't sacrafice humans, but I daresay your ancestors did).

With respct to Lilith. She *is* a dark Goddess. She *is* a representation of the more wicked, sterile, unsatisfying, "junk food" kind of sex. You can laud Lilith until the cows come home--this is still what and who she is, and she's not alone in this. Ereshkigal is, for example, another Goddess who is sexual in a dark, unfulfilling manner. Kali is another Goddess who uses sex as a weapon, or in a rather unhealthy manner. See http://www.mothersmagic.net/Goddess/darkgoddess.html .

Lilith is a very dear Goddess to me, but I recognize her as a very dark force, soemthing not to be wholeheartedly welcomed under any cirumstances. Just because we have given her the title Goddess for the positive htings she has come to represent (power--and on that note, I do believe that evolution of the egregore and associatiosn that we have with Deities is important. Simply buase Lilith used to be solely a demon does not mean she still is). Simply because we can learn to embrace one aspect of Lilith does not mean we have to love or accept all of her--She has her faults, and they are Big Big ones.

[Mairwen]

Moved to Just Talk for your posting pleasure.

[Mairwen]

:rolleyes: *nudge*

[Vinga]

I dunno...I'm not too educated on the topic but I think the whole demonic 1st wife of Adam thing (although as a 2nd wife I know 1st wives can seem somewhat demonic at times :p ), kind of requires one to believe Adam actually was the first man and that the Christian God actually singlehandedly created the world. If you remove all Christian elements from the myth of Lilith, what have you? It just seems to me that most of Liliths supposed features and characteristics have come from her alledged involvment with the Christian deity and the Christian creation myth. I would be more interested to know who she was originally and what pantheon she really belongs to?

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by amberlaine


Oh my God. What chutzpah you've got there! I do see what you're saying, but a little tact and a bit of respect wouldn't hurt in getting your point across.

Now. With reference to "matriarchy"--I believe the term you are looking for is "matrifocal" as in, "woman centered" where lineage and inheritance went through the mother's line. Matriarchy, as far as we know, has never existed. (For a bit of info on matriarchy, I direct you to http://www.mothersmagic.net/Goddess/ecofeminism.html and http://www.mothersmagic.net/witches/wicca/pdf/matriarchy.pdf .

Also, be careful to note that Yahweh did not give woman pain in childbirth due to her sin. He *increased* her pain in childbirth due to her sin. I think you will note that human women tend to suffer pain in childbirth more than other animals. (And I dont say that as a CHristian or Jew as I am neither, but its important to get out theology straight).

I tend to agree that the ABrahamic (just for you, BB darling) religions do tend to lok unpon women's sexuality somewhat unfavorably. However, i think its important to be able to seapareate tradition and history from modern practitioners. Just because the blokes who wrote the Bible had their fingers in teh pot screwing it up for us women, this does not mean that modern Jews and Christians look at women askance when it comes to sex. To blame the decendents for the fault of the anenstors is a weighty problem. Damn you, you pagan human-sacraficing heathan! (ouch, that stings. You probably don't sacrafice humans, but I daresay your ancestors did).

With respct to Lilith. She *is* a dark Goddess. She *is* a representation of the more wicked, sterile, unsatisfying, "junk food" kind of sex. You can laud Lilith until the cows come home--this is still what and who she is, and she's not alone in this. Ereshkigal is, for example, another Goddess who is sexual in a dark, unfulfilling manner. Kali is another Goddess who uses sex as a weapon, or in a rather unhealthy manner. See http://www.mothersmagic.net/Goddess/darkgoddess.html .

Lilith is a very dear Goddess to me, but I recognize her as a very dark force, soemthing not to be wholeheartedly welcomed under any cirumstances. Just because we have given her the title Goddess for the positive htings she has come to represent (power--and on that note, I do believe that evolution of the egregore and associatiosn that we have with Deities is important. Simply buase Lilith used to be solely a demon does not mean she still is). Simply because we can learn to embrace one aspect of Lilith does not mean we have to love or accept all of her--She has her faults, and they are Big Big ones.

Where do I start. Hmmm. I think I'll start with tact. I believe that information that is factual needs no apologies. When arguing fact I expect no niceties, and I give none.

Second, have you ever seen a female cat in labor. I daresay that their pain is as great as ours. In fact, I have seen cats target or neglect a kitten due to the intense pain it caused her in birth. Animals are also programmed not to show pain because to do so signals to predators that they are the best hope for a meal. So, it is very difficult to measure the pain levels of animals based solely on appearance. It also is apparant that the length of labor is directly proportionate to life span and length of gestation period. So, a rat will have a very short labor (although who can say how long it seems to the rat), and an elephant will have a very long labor, as do humans.

As for Matriarcal vs. matrifocal, well, within the last six months I read an article in a very conservative newspaper, The Virginian Pilot, about the recent discovery of 3,000+ old graves found in the region of Mesopotamia. The archeologists grudgingly stated that the society was most likely "matriarcal" due to what they found in the graves. The women were burried with riches, and were greatly adorned, while the men were not. I also saw a documentary on the learning channel that had archeologists blowing the same horn. I have seen some evidence of the validity of matrilineal societies in humans, and some evidence negates "as far as we know, never existed." As I stated earlier, scientists have been very weary of rocking the theological boat. Many scientists are backed by Universities and are dependant upon Christian and Jewish money to continue their studies.

Look to our closest relative, the Bonobo, or pigmy chimp. They live in this matrilineal utopia that you claim is so unlikely. Also, lions live quite happily under this system. The male is only a figurehead and passes nothing in as far as territory. The territory is completely held by the lioness. Of course, there are other examples of patrilineal societies, but I only want to make a point that they do exist in our closest relatives, and in the animal kingdom at large.

As for human sacrifice, I concede on that point, however, if I were to compile a figure of humans killed in the name of Yahweh, I daresay I would get a figure up around the population of Asia today. So, I wouldn't exactly want to throw stones in that direction, if I were a worshipper of Yahweh.

Junk food Sex? Is it so wrong? Or is it just wrong that the shoe was on the other foot? Is man so weak that he is unable to say no to a sexually agressive woman with an appetite for a one night stand? Well, don't even answer that, because we both know the answer, most of the time, is yes. He is.

As for dark goddesses and gods, in general, they are not evil. They are simply the destructive side of the coin. Human nature dictates that someone will want what you have and attack you for it. Therefor, even the most dedicated tree hugger needs to have a goddess like Kalli watching her back. I daresay that the Christian equivalent to Kalli would be Joan of Arc.

Anyhow, as for Lilith, she was in touch with both her positive and negative. That's why we pagans don't need the devil. I asked a Jewish friend who took Theology in a Catholic college, and she agreed on that point. She said that Yahweh is supposed to be all that is good, and Satan all that is evil. With a god like that, who bothered to call Satan?

[amberlaine]

Junk food Sex? Is it so wrong?

*chuckle* Hell no. My point wasn't that junk food sex is bad, only that one shoudl acknowledge that this is what she represents.


however, if I were to compile a figure of humans killed in the name of Yahweh, I daresay I would get a figure up around the population of Asia today. So, I wouldn't exactly want to throw stones in that direction, if I were a worshipper of Yahweh.

Again, agreed. the point wasn't at all to imply that pagans were bloodthirsty or what have you, but rather to show that you can't blame the present for the mistakes of the past.


I asked a Jewish friend who took Theology in a Catholic college, and she agreed on that point. She said that Yahweh is supposed to be all that is good, and Satan all that is evil. With a god like that, who bothered to call Satan?

*laugh* I dont know...Christians came up with that concept...the JEws had nothing to do with it. the Jewish vision of god is much more like ours (pagans)--He is not the eternally sweet father that christianity likes to portray Him as. I mean, we're talking about a guy who wreaked some pretty heavy havoc in the Old Testament. Yahweh's pretty hard core. In fact, I think I'd probably lable him a Dark God. (there's no Satan in Judaism either)

for Vinga: Lilith is originally from the Jewish pantheon, and in the Jewish mythology, she is a demon. Many pagans (including myself) have adopted Lilith as a Goddess, but this does nt change the fac that the original role of Lilith was of demon. (For the record, lilith hasn't got anything to do with christianity. Christianity did not demonize Lilith, as she was a demon long before Christianity even came along)

You can read about Lilith in the Talmud. She's also pretty hard core. gotta love the girl, but watch your back with her. I speak from personal experience ;)

[Tigerwallah]

Ok, everyone. Here's a great resource for info on Lilith. http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/rappoport.html

[Lavender]

Ok, hope this isn't a dumb question, Amberlaine, what is the talmud?

[amberlaine]

Oohh TW thank you for posting that! I'd quite forgotten the lilitu site. I love that site.

It would be interesting to discuss the Qabalistic Lilith, if anyone were up to that :)

Wildchild: No not a dumb question at all. the Talmud is a collection of rabbinical interpretations of the Tanakh (the Jewish Bible, or the Old Testament). It contains many allegories, interpretations and myths and legends that got left out of the Tanak but are still part of traditional Judaism.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Ok, everyone. Here's a great resource for info on Lilith. http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/rappoport.html

Cool, complete with references and bibliography, thanks Tigerwallah!

Blue

I used to have this a link to this site from mine, I will have to rectify that ...

:cool:

[Lavender]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Oohh TW thank you for posting that! I'd quite forgotten the lilitu site. I love that site.

It would be interesting to discuss the Qabalistic Lilith, if anyone were up to that :)

Wildchild: No not a dumb question at all. the Talmud is a collection of rabbinical interpretations of the Tanakh (the Jewish Bible, or the Old Testament). It contains many allegories, interpretations and myths and legends that got left out of the Tanak but are still part of traditional Judaism.

Thanks, Amberlaine. I'm going to have to check out the library for that. There's a pretty big library here. If they don't have anything like that, I'll check at the university library.

As Vinga had posted...would believing in Lilith means that you have to accept that God had created all mankind single handed? I really don't know enough to make a comment on this but it was a thought I was thinking about.

[December7]

I dunno if this has already been discussed, coz I haven't read the whole thread yet, but do you think, that the Hebrew Lilith is the same Lilith as the Sumerian one (you know, the Lilith in the myth of the Goddess Innana...do you know??). Well, if not, I would be confused about the thought of two existing Liliths....

I've also heard that the name "Kali" is an epithet of Lilith, what, if true, wouldn’t surprise me at all :D


@ Amberlaine

I read that you are monotheist, but also that you have some "experiences" with Lilith. So, does your believe in YAHWE (sp?) allow any "relationships" with other Gods or Goddesses???
(I'm in the mood to learn :) )

[amberlaine]

As Vinga had posted...would believing in Lilith means that you have to accept that God had created all mankind single handed? I really don't know enough to make a comment on this but it was a thought I was thinking about.

I don't think that*any* belief necessarily hinges on another belief. As long as one adopts "beliefs" that do not conflict with each other, I don't see any reason why a peerson couldn't take bits and pieces from many different religions and make them their own. So no, I do't that having faith in Lilith means you have to be Jewish, have faith in Yahweh, the Old Testament or anything. I think faith in Lilith is independent of anything else. (thats just my thought though--I'm sure others would disagree).


I read that you are monotheist, but also that you have some "experiences" with Lilith. So, does your believe in YAHWE (sp?) allow any "relationships" with other Gods or Goddesses???

Well this is the short answer, without getting into a Qabalistic view of G!D:

I belive there is only one G!D--the divine energy that gave birth to the Universe and permeates all of creation. I believe that this G!D is so vast and so great that it cannot ever be comprehended by human minds. But becuase we desire to have a relationship with G!D, we have to be able to envision it in a way that is comprehensible to us. Therefore, we created many gods and goddesses, each which represents a certain aspect or face of G!D.

This is what makes me a monotheist, however, I still believe that the individual aspects of G!D are important for us as people. As one aspect of the Divine, Lilith has spoken to me. About ayear ago, She decided to torture me 8O . she came to me in dreams, in shadows, when i least expected her. She made sex compeltely sterile, all consuming, voracious, but never fulfilling. Its a long story, but suffice it to say as a result, I came to understand her and have a realtionship with her.

this does not mean that I think that Lilith is an actual being with a mind, form, consciousness of her own. I dont. I think she is but one face of the Almighty--and that G!D has many, many faces.

Does that at all answer your question?

[adrian]

I just finished that book a few days ago, The Book of Lilith - by Barbara Black Koltuv, Ph. D. pretty deep book! But what's important here is that it is a book about woman written by man, it is suppose to be a warning to men about women but i found it to be much more than that, maybe because this one was written by a woman...did that make sence??? maybe i should get some sleep.

[Fawn]

Wow What a great discussion and the link to Lilith was awesome !!

[Celtic_Angel]

http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/

http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/l/lilith.html

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shoke1/950206_Lilith.html

I don't know why, but the last link isn't showing up right. The last part is supposed to go

~elsegal/Shoke1/950206_Lilith.html

Maybe it's too long. I don't know.

[December7]

@Amberlaine

Yeah, thanks, I think I do understand. Though this idea of God is still a lil confusing for me...

[Earth Walker]

Lilith is an original Hebrew Goddess, mentioned only brielfly in
Judeo-Christian sacred texts and later written out completely.
Lilith is the Female Principle of the Universe Whom the Jews had
to overcome. Generally a religion which is superseded by
another religion, through military might rather than conversion,
suffers a reversal. The first thing that happened to the original
religion was that it became totally masculinized.
The religious names were changed; then the functions of the
deities were subverted or completely eliminated. This is
particularly obvious in the case of Lilith.
She is accompanied by the owl, whom She shares with Athena.
She is winged Herself because She too is a spirit. On Her head
are snakes, a familiar Goddess symbol of regeneration and
wisdom. Lilith was originally associated with life, the birth process
and children. She was protector of all pregnant women, mothers
and children

You gotta give it to Lilith,
she was a hell of a woman.

Said she'd rather
**** demons on the beach
than lie under the belly
of that whiner Adam

and flew from Paradise...
--Jonelle Maison

I will do a thread on Lilith in the G & G Forum. :)

For those who love, time is eternity....

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Mystique
I will do a thread on Lilith in the G & G Forum. :)


No, please don't. This thread originated in the Gods and Goddesses Forum, but was moved here because of difficulty which arose.

Thank you.

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Vinga
I dunno...I'm not too educated on the topic but I think the whole demonic 1st wife of Adam thing (although as a 2nd wife I know 1st wives can seem somewhat demonic at times :p ), kind of requires one to believe Adam actually was the first man and that the Christian God actually singlehandedly created the world. If you remove all Christian elements from the myth of Lilith, what have you? It just seems to me that most of Liliths supposed features and characteristics have come from her alledged involvment with the Christian deity and the Christian creation myth. I would be more interested to know who she was originally and what pantheon she really belongs to?

Not actually. Lilith was most likely a popular goddess that was being worshipped by Pagans and was written into the Talmud to demonize her and knock her and her followers down a peg. She is not actually associated with Christianity, just Judaism. She appears in the Talmud and the Qabala, but in no Christian texts.

Yahweh and/or Jahovah do not make it onto the scene until somewhere after 1,600 BCE. The name of Yahweh/Jahovah is conspicuously absent from archeology and know human history until about 1,000 years before Christ. In fact, the Aten is the only known deity to be worshipped as a single deity, and that was very short lived. The religous revolution in Egypt only lasted a mere 16 years, and then it was back to the multiple gods/goddesses until Yahweh burst onto the scene some centuries later.

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
It is also believed that when babies die, it is because of Lilith.... she stands over their beds and steals their breath

Isn't that along the same line as the old wives tale about cats?

Dria El

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Dria El


Isn't that along the same line as the old wives tale about cats?

Dria El



Yes, it is.

Blue

[Dria El]

Originally posted by bluecat


Yes, it is.

Blue

Kinda makes ya think, eh?

Dria El

[amberlaine]

Lilith was most likely a popular goddess that was being worshipped by Pagans and was written into the Talmud to demonize her and knock her and her followers down a peg.

Ah. THe point here is well taken--it is possible that there was *some* intention of turning a pagan Goddess into a demon at some point. However, its unfair to say that Lilith herself was ever anything otherwise. Lilith, as the being and egregore as we know her today, is a child of Judaism. I think its kind of a stretch to take her out of her natural pantheon on the supposition that she may have been someone's Goddess. *shrug* We just don't have proof of that, and in truth, that other deity wouldn't have been the same Lilith we speak of today. THe Lilith that we know, her history, her temperament, her "baggage"--all of that stuff comes from Jewish allegorial texts. We should be careful not to take that away from them.

[Kaylara]

Yes, but you also have to take into account how the jewish people moved around. Everywhere they went, they assimilated the local religious beliefs into their traditions to help the non-jewish people cope, etc. etc. Just like the Catholics in England, Ireland, and Scotland. And just like the goddess Athena, who is thought of as a mother goddess because that is where she appeared in her original form. She was changed to suit the religious, political, and social needs as time went on, and became a goddess of Wisdom and Warfare, not to mention a Tomboy.

Along the same line of thought, you can't prove anything by looking at the books of one religion. That is like say that because the Kama Sutra lists a lot a sexual positions, all Indian people are sex freaks... You have to look to the other peoples who are in the same area. You will find other Goddesses with similar attributes, and maybe even similar names, that can help you piece together what the Goddess may have actually been. All religions have their biases, and all religious texts reflect those biases: The Koran, The Bible, The Talmud, etc.

If you live in America, you hate Iran and they are wrong. If you live in Iran, you hate Americans and they are wrong. It is all perspective, and in order to get a better picture of the Goddess Lillith, we cannot simply look from one point of view.

Kaylara

[amberlaine]

Along the same line of thought, you can't prove anything by looking at the books of one religion. That is like say that because the Kama Sutra lists a lot a sexual positions, all Indian people are sex freaks...

*chuckle* Err, interesting argument there, but that's completely non-sequiter.


It is all perspective, and in order to get a better picture of the Goddess Lillith, we cannot simply look from one point of view.

I see what you are saying, Kaylara, but I disagree, at least with regard to what she is and where she comes from. To me, saying you have to look outside Judaism to understand Lilith is like saying you have to look outside Hinduism to understand Kali or outside the Celtic myths to understand Brgid. You don't. Kali is a child of Hinuism, Brigid a child of Celtic lore--Lilith a child of Judaism.

Now. If you're tlaking about understanding the motives and notions behind why the rabbis wrote about Lilith in the first place--well that's a whole different can of worms. What other tribes had the Hebrws encountered that went into the view of deity and how supernatural entities should be depicted--that's the subject of a whole different topic, and ultimately, not related to Lilith, really. That's more a of a study on historical theological development. A very valuable study, and one I"d certianly be interested in exploring. But if we're talking about the being that we currently know as Lilith, we don't have to look outside of her pantheon any more than we would any other Goddess.

[Kaylara]

But you do have to look at her roots. Look at the social, economic, and political climate of the time in which Lillith came into Jewish myth. To just say that Lillith was always a Jewish creation is in my opinion not getting the whole story on who she was, and how she became what she is known as now. When discussing a goddess, one cannot dismiss the influences that formed the myth surrounding the goddess.

You can look to the older myths of cultures, and then the more recent ones, and see a noticeable shift depending on how that culture evolved. If you don't disect a myth, you cannot find the nugget of truth that is the heart of that myth.

I think that unless research is done as to the pre-jewish myth of this goddess, there really is no point in debating the issue anymore. We will not be getting the whole story, because we have not looked at all of the information that is available.

Kaylara

[amberlaine]

You can look to the older myths of cultures, and then the more recent ones, and see a noticeable shift depending on how that culture evolved. If you don't disect a myth, you cannot find the nugget of truth that is the heart of that myth.

Ok well in your own opinion, what's the truth at the heart of the Lilith myth? Exactly what are the "pre-Jewish" roots of this Hebrew demon?

[Kaylara]

I will answer that after I have researched it... I'm going to have to do this after work...
;)

Kaylara

[Kaylara]

Ok... After a little research... this is what I found:

A female demon of the night who supposedly flies around searching for newborn children either to kidnap or strangle them. Also, she sleeps with men to seduce them into propagating demon sons. Legends told about Lilith are ancient. The rabbinical myths of Lilith being Adam’s first wife seem to relate to the Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Belit-ili, or Belili. To the Canaanites, Lilith was Baalat, the "Divine Lady." On a tablet from Ur, ca. 2000 BCE, she was addressed as Lillake.
One story is that God created Adam and Lilith as twins joined together at the back. She demanded equality with Adam, failing to achieve it, she left him in anger. This is sometimes accompanied by a Muslim legend that after leaving Adam Lilith slept with Satan, thus creating the demonic Djinn.

In another version of the myth of Lilith, she was Adam’s first wife before Eve. Adam married her because he became tired of coupling with animals, a common Middle-Eastern herdsmen practice, though the Old Testament declared it a sin (Deuteronomy 27:21). Adam tried to make Lilith lie beneath him during sexual intercourse. Lilith would not meet this demand of male dominance. She cursed Adam and hurried to her home by the Red Sea.

Adam complained to God who then sent three angels, Sanvi, Sansanvi and Semangelaf, to bring Lilith back to Eden. Lilith rebuffed the angels by cursing them. While by the Red Sea Lilith became a lover to demons and producing 100 babies a day. The angels said that God would take these demon children away from her unless she returned to Adam. When she did not return, she was punished accordingly. And, God also gave Adam the docile Eve.

According to some Lilith’s fecundity and sexual preferences showed she was a Great Mother of settled agricultural tribes, who resisted the invasions of the nomadic herdsmen, represented by Adam. It is felt the early Hebrews disliked the Great Mother who drank the blood of Abel, the herdsman, after being slain by the elder god of agriculture and smithcraft, Cain (Genesis 4:11). Lilith’s Red Sea is but another version of Kali Ma's Ocean of Blood, which gave birth to all things but needed periodic sacrificial replenishment.

Speculation is that perhaps there was a connection between Lilith and the Etruscan divinity Lenith, who possessed no face and waited at the gate of the underworld along with Eita and Persipnei (Hecate and Persephone) to receive the souls of the dead. The underworld gate was a yoni, and also a lily, which had "no face." Admission into the underworld was frequently mythologized as a sexual union. (see Tantrism) The lily or lilu (lotus) was the Great Mother’s flower-yoni, whose title formed Lilith’s name.

Even though the story of Lilith disappeared from the canonical Bible, her daughters the lilim haunted men for over a thousand years. It was well into that Middle Ages that Jews still manufactured amulets to keep away the lilim. Supposedly they were lusty she-demons who copulated with men in all their dreams, causing nocturnal emissions.

The Greeks adopted the belief of the lilim, calling them Lamiae, Empusae (Forcers-In), or Daughters of Hecate. Likewise the Christians adopted the belief, calling them harlots of hell, or succubi, the counterpart of the incubi. Celebrant monks attempted to fend them off by sleeping with their hands over their genitals, clutching a crucifix.

Even though most of the Lilith legend is derived from Jewish folklore, descriptions of the Lilith demon appear in Iranian, Babylonian, Mexican, Greek, Arab, English, German, Oriental and Native American legends. Also, she sometimes has been associated with legendary and mythological characters such as the Queen of Sheba and Helen of Troy. In medieval Europe she was proclaimed to be the wife, concubine or grandmother of Satan.

Men who experienced nocturnal emissions during their sleep believed they had been seduced by Lilith and said certain incantations to prevent the offspring from becoming demons. It was thought each time a pious Christian had a wet dream, Lilith laughed. It was believed that Lilith was assisted in her bloodthirsty nocturnal quests by succubi, who gathered with her near the "mountains of darkness" to frolic with her demon lover Samael, whole name means "poison of God" (sam-el). The Zohar, the principal work of the Kabbalah, describes Lilith’s powers at their height during the waning of the moon.

According to legend Lilith’s attraction for children comes from the belief that God took her demon children from her when she did not return to Adam. It was believed that she launched a reign of terror against women in childbirth and newborn infants, especially boys. However, it also was believed that the three angels who were sent to fetch her by the Red Sea forced her to swear that whenever she saw their names or images on amulets that she would leave the infants and mothers alone.

These beliefs continued for centuries. As late as the 18th century, it was a common practice in many cultures to protect new mothers and their infants with amulets against Lilith. Males were most vulnerable during the first week of life, girls during the first three weeks. Sometimes a magic circle was drawn around the lying-in-bed, with a charm inscribed with the names of the three angels, Adam and Eve and the words "barring Lilith" or "protect this newborn child from all harm." Frequently amulets were place in the four corners and throughout the bedchamber. If a child laughed while sleeping, it was taken as a sign that Lilith was present. Tapping the child on the nose, it was believed, made her go away.

Found at
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lilith.html

Kaylara

[amberlaine]

Ok Kaylara, but what's the truth at the heart of the myth? I thought that's where we were going with this. And does looking beyond Judaism help you find that truth?

[Kaylara]

Yes it does... I was looking for the roots of the Myth... The goddess appears to have been originally from Mesopotamia... Now that I have other names that she was known by, I can find the underlying myth of Lilith, and why the myth was changed the way it was... More research is needed... I will post again here when I have compiled enough to make a conclusion... ;)

Kaylara

[amberlaine]

Ok. I look forward to hearing your conclusion.

[bananabrain]

Originally posted by amberlaine
Lilith, as the being and egregore as we know her today, is a child of Judaism. I think its kind of a stretch to take her out of her natural pantheon on the supposition that she may have been someone's Goddess. *shrug* We just don't have proof of that, and in truth, that other deity wouldn't have been the same Lilith we speak of today. THe Lilith that we know, her history, her temperament, her "baggage"--all of that stuff comes from Jewish allegorial texts. We should be careful not to take that away from them.

word, amber.

i wish people would just leave our stuff alone. the Talmud and the Torah are COMPLICATED. they require TRAINING to understand, let alone use. to use an analogy, no matter how many times you read a cardiology textbook cover-to-cover, it would not qualify you to perform open-heart surgery without the aid of generalised medical training, clinical knowledge and proper teaching. why people think it is possible to discuss midrash and kabbalah without any knowledge of the Written and Oral Torah is just beyond me. even jews require education (and a catholic theology college will not necessarily help)

look - lilith in judaism, ESPECIALLY in midrash and kabbalah, fulfils a specific function for jews, namely to help us be aware of our tendency to misuse our sexuality for selfish or evil ends. obviously, our conception of what is selfish or evil is determined by our tradition. i can assure you that we are not in the least bit interested in what some archaeologist has to say about babylonian or sumerian fossils, intriguing and interesting though they are. historical hypothesis is NOT proof - and certainly has no bearing on Torah.

furthermore, unless you actually know anything about the attitude of jewish law towards sex, stay out of it, or ask someone who has studied it properly. reading an english translation of the old testament will help you NOT AT ALL. you will find nowhere in your king james bible any reference to a man's duty to satisfy his wife sexually on pain of her ability to divorce him (which is not a reciprocal law), nor will you find any condemnation of rape within marriage, both of which are discussed in the Talmud, which, lest we forget, was only written down for the first time 2000 years ago. without the Oral Law, (ie the Talmud) the Written Law (ie the Torah, or pentateuch if you like) is incomprehensible. you have no grounds whatsoever on which to accuse *judaism* of being anti-women, even if it is possible to find jews who are less than blameless on this subject (saul/paul of tarsus being a striking example). and don't confuse it with christianity either. the two are quite distinct from each other. if you want to know the difference, ask before you shoot from the lip.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tigerwallah]

Jewish texts are not the only source for information about Lilith. She has a rich Babylonian history. She does not appear in Hebrew texts until the Middle Ages, therefor, was a pagan goddess long before she was a Hebrew demoness.

"A female demon of the night who supposedly flies around searching for newborn children either to kidnap or strangle them. Also, she sleeps with men to seduce them into propagating demon sons. Legends told about Lilith are ancient. The rabbinical myths of Lilith being Adam’s first wife seem to relate to the Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Belit-ili, or Belili. To the Canaanites, Lilith was Baalat, the "Divine Lady." On a tablet from Ur, ca. 2000 BCE, she was addressed as Lillake."
This is from "Lilith" by Alan G. Hefner Here is a link - http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/l/lilith.html

[Arkana]

Thread is dead now??:weirdsmil

[RoseKitten]

Jewish texts are not the only source for information about Lilith. She has a rich Babylonian history. She does not appear in Hebrew texts until the Middle Ages, therefor, was a pagan goddess long before she was a Hebrew demoness.

"A female demon of the night who supposedly flies around searching for newborn children either to kidnap or strangle them. Also, she sleeps with men to seduce them into propagating demon sons. Legends told about Lilith are ancient. The rabbinical myths of Lilith being Adam’s first wife seem to relate to the Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Belit-ili, or Belili. To the Canaanites, Lilith was Baalat, the "Divine Lady." On a tablet from Ur, ca. 2000 BCE, she was addressed as Lillake."
This is from "Lilith" by Alan G. Hefner Here is a link - http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/l/lilith.html

She wasn't a goddess until current times. She was a demon in Sumerian culture, one that, as you already mentioned, killing children and seducing men, sometimes at the will of Inanna, and sometimes of her own desires. I'll have to dig around in my books tonight and see what more I can pull for you.

[HetHert]

I don't know if this has been offered up yet but:

http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/The_Legend_of_Lilith.html

It's a beautiful poem about Lilitu a Sumerian fertility/agricultural Goddess.

I hardly think she was a demon first Goddess later. One cultural trend is to demonize the Gods/esses of other cultures that have been encountered or overtaken as a way of forcing submission and negating the power of those Gods/esses.

Or more simply put: One religion's demon is another's God.

[RoseKitten]

I don't know if this has been offered up yet but:

http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/The_Legend_of_Lilith.html

It's a beautiful poem about Lilitu a Sumerian fertility/agricultural Goddess.

I hardly think she was a demon first Goddess later. One cultural trend is to demonize the Gods/esses of other cultures that have been encountered or overtaken as a way of forcing submission and negating the power of those Gods/esses.

Or more simply put: One religion's demon is another's God.

There aren't many Sumerian myths that mention Lilith, let alone one dedicated to her. She was not a goddess in their culture, however due to some bad translations a number of years back, that's where people got the idea.

One of the only myths I know of that mentions her is that of Inanna's Huluppu-Tree.


When Ereskigal was given the Great Below for her domain
The god of Wisdon, Gather Enki, set sail for the underworld
The the underworld rose up and attacked him.
At that time, a tree, a single tree, a huluppu-tree
Was planted by the banks of the Euphrates.
The South Wind pulled at its roots and ripped at its branches
Until the waters of the Euphrates carried it away.
I plucked the tree from the river; I brought it to my holy garden.
I tended the tree, waiting for my shining throne and bed.

Then a serpent who could not be charmed
Made its nest in the roots of the tree,
The Anzu-bird set his young in the brances of the tree,
And the dark maid Lilith built her home in the trunk.
I wept.
How I wept!
(Yet they would not leave my tree.)"

The myth continues with Gilgamesh attacking the serpent, and Lilith smashed her home and fled to the wild. This myth was found in the book Inanna, Queen of Heaven and Earth By Diane Wolkstein and Samuel Noah Kramer (he's one of the top authorities on Sumerian history.

Lilith did not start as a Goddess, but time has made her one. I have to go to an interview, I'll bring back more info in a bit.

[David19]

She wasn't a goddess until current times. She was a demon in Sumerian culture, one that, as you already mentioned, killing children and seducing men, sometimes at the will of Inanna, and sometimes of her own desires. I'll have to dig around in my books tonight and see what more I can pull for you.


I don't know if this has been offered up yet but:

http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/The_Legend_of_Lilith.html

It's a beautiful poem about Lilitu a Sumerian fertility/agricultural Goddess.

I hardly think she was a demon first Goddess later. One cultural trend is to demonize the Gods/esses of other cultures that have been encountered or overtaken as a way of forcing submission and negating the power of those Gods/esses.

Or more simply put: One religion's demon is another's God.

RoseKitten is right, Lilith, or any of the Lilitu demons, were never fertility, or agricultural, Gods, Lilith is the only one that's become a God, but, she didn't start off that way. Lilith isn't the "loving, motherly" type either, that's not to say, I view her as "evil", she is an interesting God, but, she never started out as a Goddess, she wasn't "demonized by the patriarchy", or another culture, etc.

One good article, that I've linked too loads of times on MW, is:

'Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html) by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexaol.html)

[David19]

There aren't many Sumerian myths that mention Lilith, let alone one dedicated to her. She was not a goddess in their culture, however due to some bad translations a number of years back, that's where people got the idea.

One of the only myths I know of that mentions her is that of Inanna's Huluppu-Tree.



The myth continues with Gilgamesh attacking the serpent, and Lilith smashed her home and fled to the wild. This myth was found in the book Inanna, Queen of Heaven and Earth By Diane Wolkstein and Samuel Noah Kramer (he's one of the top authorities on Sumerian history.

Lilith did not start as a Goddess, but time has made her one. I have to go to an interview, I'll bring back more info in a bit.

QFT and great post, you said it better than I did.

BTW, good luck with your interview :) :cheers:.

[BlackLili]

So what exactly is meant by "dark maid Lilith"? I understand the mythology of the Judaic Midrash texts, describing her as the first wife of Adam, and her flight into the wilderness; and I understand the story in Gilgamesh, with her home's destruction and her flight again into the wilderness - but what does it all mean??

Oftentimes, I've found that when multiple cultures refer to an entity or an event with any specificity there tends to be a real event somewhere in the sands of time that became entrenched in (for lack of a better term) the "public consciousness." (Example would be the Great Flood mentioned also in biblical texts, Gilgamesh's tale in the Upanishads, the Puranas of Hindu origin, and the Greek Deucalion.)

Is it possible that there was a queen, or some other real figure who inspired the story of the "dark maid" - and if so, does anyone have resources?

Secondarily, lacking historical reference since we're talking about someone who potentially lived far before history was ever recorded in a sense that we know it, what sociological purpose would the archetypal figure of a dark maid or demon(ess) have provided for those cultures who recognized her existence? For the most part, figures in multiple tales aren't created just as "filler" - they serve a purpose. Either as a warning to be avoided or as inspiration to emulate.

Often though, it appears that Lilith is relegated to a secondary role in the tales that provide us with her origins - so why is she in there at all?

[David19]

So what exactly is meant by "dark maid Lilith"? I understand the mythology of the Judaic Midrash texts, describing her as the first wife of Adam, and her flight into the wilderness; and I understand the story in Gilgamesh, with her home's destruction and her flight again into the wilderness - but what does it all mean??

Oftentimes, I've found that when multiple cultures refer to an entity or an event with any specificity there tends to be a real event somewhere in the sands of time that became entrenched in (for lack of a better term) the "public consciousness." (Example would be the Great Flood mentioned also in biblical texts, Gilgamesh's tale in the Upanishads, the Puranas of Hindu origin, and the Greek Deucalion.)

Is it possible that there was a queen, or some other real figure who inspired the story of the "dark maid" - and if so, does anyone have resources?

Secondarily, lacking historical reference since we're talking about someone who potentially lived far before history was ever recorded in a sense that we know it, what sociological purpose would the archetypal figure of a dark maid or demon(ess) have provided for those cultures who recognized her existence? For the most part, figures in multiple tales aren't created just as "filler" - they serve a purpose. Either as a warning to be avoided or as inspiration to emulate.

Often though, it appears that Lilith is relegated to a secondary role in the tales that provide us with her origins - so why is she in there at all?

I don't know what the term "Dark Maid" means, maybe RoseKitten will know more. Speaking about the Flood, it's, likely, there was some type of flood, as some areas of Sumer/Mesopotamia were (maybe still are?) prone to flooding, and, it's a bit more violent than the Nile (which is why the Sumerians feared it, saw it as a punishment, compared to the Egyptians, who needed it, welcomed it, etc).

As for looking for Lilith, or any of the Gods, etc, in history, I don't think you'll find it, they're not, IMO, historical figures, they exist in the supernatural realms/planes, etc. I'm not sure why Lilith was included in that Myth, maybe, it was just needed to bring in Gilgamesh. In Sumer, and other Mesopotamian cultures, demons were quite common, and, so exorcisms, driving demons out of people, places, etc was done quite a bit.

Not sure if that helps :).

[Arkana]

I am sorry, Black Lili,
you are just repeating a Christian Myth - Lilith was, in fact, a Goddess who was demonized by history forging christian monks.
The link of Hefner does not really help, because Hefner never did own field research but only copying/quoting fundamentalist books. Again, sorry.

[David19]

I am sorry, Black Lili,
you are just repeating a Christian Myth - Lilith was, in fact, a Goddess who was demonized by history forging christian monks.
The link of Hefner does not really help, because Hefner never did own field research but only copying/quoting fundamentalist books. Again, sorry.

Actually, Lilith was never a Goddess to begin with, she was, barely, mentioned in Sumer, as an individual anyway, she belonged to a group called the Lilitu demons, and they were, kind of, like the Succusbus demons, they appeared to men in erotic dreams, and were sexually predatory towards men, the Lillu demon is the male of the species, and is, kind of, like the incubus demon, who:

From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith):


said to disturb women in their sleep and had functions of an incubus

Apparantly, the Lilitu demons also possessed teenage girls. Now, the Jewish Lilith was an individual among the Lilitu demons, and she rose up, IMO, to becoe a God (although, not a "motherly, loving fluffy and light" God). Here's a good article (I've posted this loads of times, even on the previous page) on Lilith:

'Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html) (Aaron Leitch is the author of 'Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires' (http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Magickal-Grimoires-Classical-Deciphered/dp/0738703036), and you can see more of his articles here (http://kheph777.tripod.com/indexaol.html), he's a good author, IMO, and isn't fluffy, etc).

Lilith was not "demonized" by the Christians, 'cause, she already was a demon.

[Windygo]

So, if there happens to be a godess, and the enemies of the culture which she's from decide to change her name, appearance, role, history, background, abilities, etc etc., have they really demonized that goddess or, I dunno, made up their own character?

[David19]

So, if there happens to be a godess, and the enemies of the culture which she's from decide to change her name, appearance, role, history, background, abilities, etc etc., have they really demonized that goddess or, I dunno, made up their own character?

Well, hypothetically, I'd say, that it would be new being, a demon, 'cause, I don't believe Gods and demons are the same, they'd be related, but, not the same being (for example, Ba'al, the demon, is, IMO, different from the many different Ba'al Gods you had in Canaan (of which, there are many, as Ba'al was just a name, that meant something like God, or Lord, etc), etc). Hope that made some sense. However, in the case of Lilith, that didn't happen, 'cause, she was always a demon, now, she's not "evil", but, she didn't start off as a Goddess, IMO.

[BlackLili]

I am sorry, Black Lili,
you are just repeating a Christian Myth - Lilith was, in fact, a Goddess who was demonized by history forging christian monks.
The link of Hefner does not really help, because Hefner never did own field research but only copying/quoting fundamentalist books. Again, sorry.
Um, I believe you are mistaken.

Nowhere did I mention Christian myths in regards to Lilith in the entirety of my previous post.

The Jewish Midrash that I mentioned is traditionally a collection of commentaries and mythologies surrounding the scripture of the Tanakh (the Talmudic portions of the Old testament,) dating from about circa 11 cen BCE-16 cen BCE. Specifically, I was referring to the myth of Lilith that comes from more aggadic midrashism, which discusses non-legal discourses of rabbinical literature.

I believe the venerable rabbis who compiled, argued, and maintained those collections would very much disagree with your assertion that their work is part of "repeating a Christian myth."

What I was pointing out was the parallels drawn between the story of Innana's tree in which Lilith lived in the trunk, a story from Gilgamesh as referred to in RoseKitten's post, and the story of Lilith's escape/expulsion from the Garden of Eden as told in those aggadic texts.

When I see parallels of that nature in two very different but significant sources, it makes me question if there is an even further original source material that informed both tales, or if they developed alongside one another, as separate but parallel cultures sometimes do?

As to those pesky Christian monks - they were not the end-all, be-all of literature, but they did pretty much preserve what of written records were left to the world during a very otherwise-uneducated period of history. Fundamentalists though they may have been, I find that we benefit more from learning from their lives and productions than deriding them.

[David19]

Um, I believe you are mistaken.

Nowhere did I mention Christian myths in regards to Lilith in the entirety of my previous post.

The Jewish Midrash that I mentioned is traditionally a collection of commentaries and mythologies surrounding the scripture of the Tanakh (the Talmudic portions of the Old testament,) dating from about circa 11 cen BCE-16 cen BCE. Specifically, I was referring to the myth of Lilith that comes from more aggadic midrashism, which discusses non-legal discourses of rabbinical literature.

I believe the venerable rabbis who compiled, argued, and maintained those collections would very much disagree with your assertion that their work is part of "repeating a Christian myth."

What I was pointing out was the parallels drawn between the story of Innana's tree in which Lilith lived in the trunk, a story from Gilgamesh as referred to in RoseKitten's post, and the story of Lilith's escape/expulsion from the Garden of Eden as told in those aggadic texts.

When I see parallels of that nature in two very different but significant sources, it makes me question if there is an even further original source material that informed both tales, or if they developed alongside one another, as separate but parallel cultures sometimes do?

As to those pesky Christian monks - they were not the end-all, be-all of literature, but they did pretty much preserve what of written records were left to the world during a very otherwise-uneducated period of history. Fundamentalists though they may have been, I find that we benefit more from learning from their lives and productions than deriding them.

QFT, especially the last part :thumbsup: :).

[Windygo]

Well, hypothetically, I'd say, that it would be new being, a demon, 'cause, I don't believe Gods and demons are the same, they'd be related, but, not the same being (for example, Ba'al, the demon, is, IMO, different from the many different Ba'al Gods you had in Canaan (of which, there are many, as Ba'al was just a name, that meant something like God, or Lord, etc), etc). Hope that made some sense. However, in the case of Lilith, that didn't happen, 'cause, she was always a demon, now, she's not "evil", but, she didn't start off as a Goddess, IMO.

To be honest I was ignoring the history a bit and just going by some of the logic being tossed around in this thread, which I found to be flawed. I do agree with you.

[Arkana]

Quote by Black Lili: "As to those pesky Christian monks - they were not the end-all, be-all of literature, but they did pretty much preserve what of written records were left to the world during a very otherwise-uneducated period of history. Fundamentalists though they may have been, I find that we benefit more from learning from their lives and productions than deriding them."

Yes, you can even learn from the yellow press - that is, how to use partial truth, eloquently mixed with inventions, to create new myths. And if you use those parts of the truth with talent, most of the people will agree, because they might experienced even these parts. And because they then see that these parts are true, they automatically assume that the rest of it is true as well... and drop into that trap.
To be honest, when I shortened (with the be best intentions, because I feared too long answers would bore the readers!) the forgery of the Lilith myth as 'christian myths', then I have to state that the christians are not the first in applying forgeries to parts of the truth. Christian belief is, culturally and per definition (etymologically and scientifically) a successor of the Jewish belief, quasi a 'sect', and methods to manipulate and to make it 'fit' to the own belief were tradited as well. In order to find the truth (and I don't think I own the one truth - but I highly doubt what I have read here because almost anything fits too well into the pattern of religious 'slandery'!!), you have to dig very deep - and, if you have the time to learn Sumeran language, or, get copies of the original text and walk with this to an independent (i.e. non-religious) expert of Sumeran and let it translate anew. Then you are much nearer to the truth.
What bothers me a bit was, that you said "rabbis... would disagree". Who are you, that you are speaking for THEM? Did you factually talk to rabbis (at least two or three) about this topic?? And - if you did - DID they disagree? Well, I once spoke to ONE rabbi and got to myths the careful answer: "Well, I know that our books are books, and books are written by men and men do mistakes, willingly or unintentional. Considered, how many men were working at our books, it is highly probable that there are a number of mistakes in it".
But to - as you did (with "rabbis...would disagree") - to generalize in this way, puts you - sorry to say that - in exactly the tradition of the 'yellow press'. I only hope you did not use this term intentionally and assume to your relief it was only an unintended mistake...:weirdsmil

[BlackLili]

What bothers me a bit was, that you said "rabbis... would disagree". Who are you, that you are speaking for THEM? Did you factually talk to rabbis (at least two or three) about this topic?? And - if you did - DID they disagree? Well, I once spoke to ONE rabbi and got to myths the careful answer: "Well, I know that our books are books, and books are written by men and men do mistakes, willingly or unintentional. Considered, how many men were working at our books, it is highly probable that there are a number of mistakes in it".
But to - as you did (with "rabbis...would disagree") - to generalize in this way, puts you - sorry to say that - in exactly the tradition of the 'yellow press'. I only hope you did not use this term intentionally and assume to your relief it was only an unintended mistake...:weirdsmil

Actually, yes. I have discussed the Lilith stories with members of various clergy over time. It was a story that was first introduced to me by a Benedictine monk, a dear friend and teacher of mine. In college, I entertained the idea of entering a seminary college for a while, and spoke to those clergy members whom I grew up around, and trusted in their scholastic, academic, and spiritual opinions. This included a rabbi, a man in school to become a rabbi, a different Benedictine brother, a Jesuit priest, several Notre Dame nuns, and further more Ursuline nuns. I spent more than 12 years of my life attending theological-based schools, and feel confidant in my sources and experiences.

But thanks for attempting to deride my position based on an assumption about me, whom you do not know and have no personal familiarity with. :thumbsup:

The rabbi and student I spoke to would most certainly have disagreed with your paraphrasing of the Lilith story as a "Christian myth," as they were acutely aware of the differences between the version in the midrash, and other legendary/mythological versions of the Lilith tale.

But really - I'm not here to debate about who has the "better" story about Lilith. As to your assertion about her having been a goddess - unless you have some peer-reviewed proof to source here, then I will have to say I doubt your assessment.

I myself do not "speak" ancient Sumerian, and know precious few who actually do outside of those folks who make wild claims that are nearly-impossible to prove or back up. You, for example, could claim to speak nearly-perfect Sumerian, and then proceed to rattle off line after line of gibberish, and I would be none the wiser, knowing no one who at this time, or on this messageboard, that has the ability to proofread or fact-check the claim. (If anyone does have this ability and wants to help us out, I'd be ever so grateful.)

Unfortunately though, I believe that leaves us at an impasse as to your statement that reading the original Sumerian tablets that contained the tales and mentioned Lilith directly - because of course I couldn't trust anyone else to translate them for me, as men are fallible and their translation might not contain the "truth" - maybe you could volunteer your copies of your translations for Aghila to add to the library? Those would be some lovely additions, coming from "an independent (i.e. non-religious) expert of Sumeran." [sic]

I await your resources with baited breath.

[David19]

To be honest I was ignoring the history a bit and just going by some of the logic being tossed around in this thread, which I found to be flawed. I do agree with you.

Thanks :).

[David19]

Quote by Black Lili: "As to those pesky Christian monks - they were not the end-all, be-all of literature, but they did pretty much preserve what of written records were left to the world during a very otherwise-uneducated period of history. Fundamentalists though they may have been, I find that we benefit more from learning from their lives and productions than deriding them."

Yes, you can even learn from the yellow press - that is, how to use partial truth, eloquently mixed with inventions, to create new myths. And if you use those parts of the truth with talent, most of the people will agree, because they might experienced even these parts. And because they then see that these parts are true, they automatically assume that the rest of it is true as well... and drop into that trap.
To be honest, when I shortened (with the be best intentions, because I feared too long answers would bore the readers!) the forgery of the Lilith myth as 'christian myths', then I have to state that the christians are not the first in applying forgeries to parts of the truth. Christian belief is, culturally and per definition (etymologically and scientifically) a successor of the Jewish belief, quasi a 'sect', and methods to manipulate and to make it 'fit' to the own belief were tradited as well. In order to find the truth (and I don't think I own the one truth - but I highly doubt what I have read here because almost anything fits too well into the pattern of religious 'slandery'!!), you have to dig very deep - and, if you have the time to learn Sumeran language, or, get copies of the original text and walk with this to an independent (i.e. non-religious) expert of Sumeran and let it translate anew. Then you are much nearer to the truth.
What bothers me a bit was, that you said "rabbis... would disagree". Who are you, that you are speaking for THEM? Did you factually talk to rabbis (at least two or three) about this topic?? And - if you did - DID they disagree? Well, I once spoke to ONE rabbi and got to myths the careful answer: "Well, I know that our books are books, and books are written by men and men do mistakes, willingly or unintentional. Considered, how many men were working at our books, it is highly probable that there are a number of mistakes in it".
But to - as you did (with "rabbis...would disagree") - to generalize in this way, puts you - sorry to say that - in exactly the tradition of the 'yellow press'. I only hope you did not use this term intentionally and assume to your relief it was only an unintended mistake...:weirdsmil

I want to reply, but, I really don't know what you're trying to say _inabox_.

[RoseKitten]

So what exactly is meant by "dark maid Lilith"?

Is it possible that there was a queen, or some other real figure who inspired the story of the "dark maid" - and if so, does anyone have resources?

Secondarily, lacking historical reference since we're talking about someone who potentially lived far before history was ever recorded in a sense that we know it, what sociological purpose would the archetypal figure of a dark maid or demon(ess) have provided for those cultures who recognized her existence? For the most part, figures in multiple tales aren't created just as "filler" - they serve a purpose. Either as a warning to be avoided or as inspiration to emulate.

Often though, it appears that Lilith is relegated to a secondary role in the tales that provide us with her origins - so why is she in there at all?


OMG! I thought I'd gotten back to this a long time ago. O.o My bad!

Dark maid refers to the fact that after harassing Inanna and refusing to leave her tree, she eventually became a "maid" to the Goddess. She would seduce men and kill/capture babies and children. She is secondary, possibly because she didn't want to accept the fact that she was infact, secondary. She was not, and in my opinion, will never be as powerful as the goddess that controlled her, but I suppose that's just an argument away on this forum. lol She is there because she was important, but the times that she is mentioned, at least in Sumerian history, it's because she's being a... brat (to put it in PG terms lol) to Inanna. ^_^

[hikarilove]

She was not, and in my opinion, will never be as powerful as the goddess that controlled her, but I suppose that's just an argument away on this forum. lol She is there because she was important, but the times that she is mentioned, at least in Sumerian history, it's because she's being a... brat (to put it in PG terms lol) to Inanna. ^_^

Hahaha. While admittedly suppress a little bit of ire... ;) I can see your point. I, personally, have never paid much attention to Lilith's place in Sumerian mythology as it seems, to me, that she doesn't quite fit in there. Her story is made up of fragments which span the ages and the globe. She's an ancient fear, a nameless creature... she's more of a part of the human psyche and the coldness of space than anything we might title a "goddess".

On a side note, I think it's probably an unwise idea to refer to one god as being "more powerful" to another. I'm sure you meant it in the context of the myth... it just seems like an easy way to step on toes.

I'm sure no offense was intended and none was perceived. ;)

[BlackLili]

OMG! I thought I'd gotten back to this a long time ago. O.o My bad!

Dark maid refers to the fact that after harassing Inanna and refusing to leave her tree, she eventually became a "maid" to the Goddess. She would seduce men and kill/capture babies and children. She is secondary, possibly because she didn't want to accept the fact that she was infact, secondary. She was not, and in my opinion, will never be as powerful as the goddess that controlled her, but I suppose that's just an argument away on this forum. lol She is there because she was important, but the times that she is mentioned, at least in Sumerian history, it's because she's being a... brat (to put it in PG terms lol) to Inanna. ^_^
What you're describing sounds to me like the literary concept of a "foil." In the Sumerian myths to which you're referring, Lilith proves as Inanna's foil - dark to her light, "brat" to her "goddess".

While that makes sense objectively, it still makes me return to the conglomerate legends behind Lilith. In the Sumerian myths, she is a foil for the symbolic "good" in Sumerian culture - destroyer and devourer where creation and divinity are aspirations and ideologies. In the Jewish Midrash, she is a foil again - a foil for Eve, in that she refuses to submit, and a foil for motherhood again in her position as child-eater and seductress.

This interests me, as it leans towards some of my original theories that Lilith exists specifically because she is a foil. She's a classic antagonist - no matter which way you slice her, she's always there to contradict. She even gets away with contradicting Yahweh and his angels! To the point of making deals with them even!

(Just thinking out loud here...)
Could it be that she has gained such popularity now, in this time, as a protagonist in the minds of some, because our values as a culture reflect her as such?

Strength - strength to a fault at times, could also be called stubbornness. Had she just submitted to Adam, had she just submitted herself to Inanna's wishes, had she just submitted herself to Yahweh's angels when they told her to return - she might have saved herself a long and possibly lonely eternity wandering the Wilderness if she had just once submitted.

In the past, that might have served as a warning. To threaten a woman with disownment, the rejection of her family and possibly her whole culture - that was a death sentence in generations past. Not even so long ago as we might think - and carries on even today in some parts of the world.

But its not so much of a warning in industrialized nations anymore. Places where women fight and even sometimes win rights of equality - the right to say "No" is held as sacred. The right to not submit, to not "be a good girl" and do as we're told, and to still have the right to go to our own homes, on our own terms, day in and out - that is something prized in these cultures.

Maybe that's why the resurgence of interest in the Lilith stories has grown alongside of feminist movements and alternate spiritual paths. Instead of being reviled as a foil for our culture, there are those of us who revere her as a paragon.

Its not that the myths have changed, just our understanding of them. And our understanding seems to have come full circle in terms of interpretation of her.

Goddess, Foil, Jungian Construct - She's important to know, I believe. For me, anyway.

[RoseKitten]

What you're describing sounds to me like the literary concept of a "foil." In the Sumerian myths to which you're referring, Lilith proves as Inanna's foil - dark to her light, "brat" to her "goddess".

While that makes sense objectively, it still makes me return to the conglomerate legends behind Lilith. In the Sumerian myths, she is a foil for the symbolic "good" in Sumerian culture - destroyer and devourer where creation and divinity are aspirations and ideologies. In the Jewish Midrash, she is a foil again - a foil for Eve, in that she refuses to submit, and a foil for motherhood again in her position as child-eater and seductress.



I'd just like to point out that Inanna was hardly "good" by any means. :lol: Lillith seems to me more like her shadow than her opposit.




This interests me, as it leans towards some of my original theories that Lilith exists specifically because she is a foil. She's a classic antagonist - no matter which way you slice her, she's always there to contradict. She even gets away with contradicting Yahweh and his angels! To the point of making deals with them even!

(Just thinking out loud here...)
Could it be that she has gained such popularity now, in this time, as a protagonist in the minds of some, because our values as a culture reflect her as such?



The first part I can't really say because I don't know much about Lillith, and what I do know is only referenced a few times in Sumerian myth. However, to the popularity, (and please, don't take my word for it, I'm going off what my mentor told me, and with as much as he knows, I'm going to believe him. I'll research it if I have the time and try to find more info for you), it seems to be that back in I believe the... 80's? some bad translations came out. People didn't know as much about the language then (it may have been earlier than that, I don't remember lol), and it was believed that Lillith and Inanna were the same, and that they didn't understand the sublte differences in the language. But, as with other things in the pagan community, when a mis-truth comes out, sometimes it spreads like wild-fire; like how we all have wild orgies under the moon and such. :) I'm not sure though, I'll have to look into it more.




Strength - strength to a fault at times, could also be called stubbornness. Had she just submitted to Adam, had she just submitted herself to Inanna's wishes, had she just submitted herself to Yahweh's angels when they told her to return - she might have saved herself a long and possibly lonely eternity wandering the Wilderness if she had just once submitted.

In the past, that might have served as a warning. To threaten a woman with disownment, the rejection of her family and possibly her whole culture - that was a death sentence in generations past. Not even so long ago as we might think - and carries on even today in some parts of the world.

But its not so much of a warning in industrialized nations anymore. Places where women fight and even sometimes win rights of equality - the right to say "No" is held as sacred. The right to not submit, to not "be a good girl" and do as we're told, and to still have the right to go to our own homes, on our own terms, day in and out - that is something prized in these cultures.

Maybe that's why the resurgence of interest in the Lilith stories has grown alongside of feminist movements and alternate spiritual paths. Instead of being reviled as a foil for our culture, there are those of us who revere her as a paragon.

Its not that the myths have changed, just our understanding of them. And our understanding seems to have come full circle in terms of interpretation of her.

Goddess, Foil, Jungian Construct - She's important to know, I believe. For me, anyway.

Perhaps, but like I said before, I don't really view her that way. I do view Inanna in that light, but I'm biased on that one. :)

[RoseKitten]

On a side note, I think it's probably an unwise idea to refer to one god as being "more powerful" to another. I'm sure you meant it in the context of the myth... it just seems like an easy way to step on toes.

I'm sure no offense was intended and none was perceived. ;)

To that, I don't think of Lillith as a "god" so it's kind of a moot point. While I wouldn't compare gods to each other in terms of strength, I will compre lesser beings to them. The Lillth that I know of is a lesser being, what others worship may not be, I can't say, but that's my opinion.