The importance of believing in 'magic'

[cheddarsox]

This might be an offshoot of the "prayer" thread, but it seemed different enough that I didn't want it to get lost in there.

I have an ongoing issue in my life of not getting what I want, but helping others get what they want. Yesterday, while working and wondering WHY that is, and turning to my faith for some insight, it dawned on me.

Part of my "problem" is that I don't believe in magic. I don't dream big, hope for wonderful things to happen, etc. I am so much a realist, on my own behalf, that I probably pass up opportunities for my own dreams coming true, because I don't believe in long shots...magic.

On the other hand, being such a die hard realist, and knowing how much I long for something wonderful to happen in my own life, I go out of my way to try to create "magic" for others. To help others realize their dreams and goals and fantasies.

I make happen for them what I won't dare to make happen for me, because I don't "believe in magic".

On some level, the very faith that calms me and gets me through dissappointments (it's the way the Universe is...it's not personal) is also holding me back, psychologically from dreaming big and making big things come true for me. I just take what comes, accept what happens, without making things happen for myself.

just thought I'd throw that out there.

It may have nothing to do with a pantheist outlook at all, it may just be my personal hangups that I am projecting onto my pantheism, but I thought it was worth taking a look at.

It seems that to a certain degree, a belief in "magic" (prayer, spells, that something out there can be addressed on our behalf) helps people do what they would not do if they didn't believe. A little magic seems to be a good thing.

cheddar

[TygerTyger]

I’m not too sure what you mean by “magic” so I’m making a presumption that it is anything that seems to have occurred without an obvious cause and has worked in your favour? Working on that premise I do believe in magic, I think things do come to you if you want it badly enough, but not necessarily everything.

I have personal examples of things not working out, I’ve been promoted 3 times, won a HM Treasury Bursary for disabled people who demonstrated the potential to reach the top, accepted a demotion to keep my job and have been selected for promotion again but there’s no post for me to take up! I earn well below the national average and qualify for income support benefits. I impress all of my bosses but I’ve never had the actual break to prove my full potential whereas others seemingly less suited (but friends of friends) seem to progress without a problem; it doesn’t figure!

On the other side of the coin, my wife is both a beautiful woman (and I’m not just saying that, she looks like Kylie Minogue) and a beautiful person, she had her pick of admirers. I fell in love with her the first time I met her but I never thought that she would ever see me as anything but a friend. I wished and I prayed and I was patient and she eventually fell in love with me; that was magic!

I’ve given up on the career path now, but only after a lot of introspection. I think that it is not a question of me not being capable of doing well in my profession; it’s that it’s not necessary for me as a person. Having the love of my wife is definitely good for me, it has changed me for the better and I value my home life far more than my career now. I have two healthy, intelligent children. My daughter is going to university in September and my son has been selected for recommendation by his current school for entry in a very over-subscribed senior school next year.

Since turning away from what I thought I wanted and looking for the things I knew but did not consciously acknowledge that I wanted I’ve become more contented. I’ve started writing and painting again and considering spiritual matters in much more depth.

Perhaps the point is that you can make the magic happen where you really need it, but you have to identify what you really need first?

[cesara]

Interesting post!

I felt the same way as you for a very long time. It becomes (at least it did for me) very boring, and depressing most of the time.

The thing I didn't realize is, reality includes magic. There are so many things about the world, the universe, and humanity that we know nothing about. If you believe that nothing falls outside the rules of natural law, you may, on a cursory view, eliminate the reality of magic. But, what is magic but the explanation of the mysteries of reality? Magic fills in the gaps even if we understand how it works. Is electricity magic? From my perspective yes, it is.

Magic doesn't have to work against any natural laws to be useful, or even real.

I think this entire conversation hinges on what your definition of magic/k is.

[cheddarsox]

Interesting post!

I felt the same way as you for a very long time. It becomes (at least it did for me) very boring, and depressing most of the time.

The thing I didn't realize is, reality includes magic. There are so many things about the world, the universe, and humanity that we know nothing about. If you believe that nothing falls outside the rules of natural law, you may, on a cursory view, eliminate the reality of magic. But, what is magic but the explanation of the mysteries of reality? Magic fills in the gaps even if we understand how it works. Is electricity magic? From my perspective yes, it is.

Magic doesn't have to work against any natural laws to be useful, or even real.

I think this entire conversation hinges on what your definition of magic/k is.

There are so many things in the Universe I don't have a clue about, and I can see how people have in the past and continue to label these things as magic. I guess my personal definition of "magic" has something to do with intent on its own, having some kind of energy that works in the Universe to produce results, or intent with action that is not related to gaining the end, can work with the universe to produce results. Like a spell might include action...but not action that has a clear link to the desired outcome. To me that is magic.

Doing a spell, mixing herbs and oils, chanting words...to get a job, is magic. Taking continuing ed, a course on interviewing skills and getting professional help putting together a resume to get a job, is not magic.

That is the definition I am working with.

I agree that there is so much at work in the complex system that is the Universe that indeed we cannot really understand how many things work, and all the levels of connection.

I am not arguing the existence of magic. Because many people I know and respect have experienced it, but it seems oddly absent from my life. I expect that might be because I don't believe it works FOR ME. Maybe all I have to do is reach into the hat and pull out the rabbit, but because I don't expect a rabbit to be there, I never reach in. Maybe the rabbit is waiting. Maybe my dreams are just a spell away from coming true, but I can't muster the hope/confidence to do the spell.

Maybe the Universe is waiting to cooperate with me and I refuse to play.

I will be beyond p*ssed if I get to the end of my life and find out all I had to do to "get home" was click my heels three times and say the magic words.
Every once in a while I wish life came with a "user's guide".

[Windsmith]

Wow, cheddar. This is a really dense and chewy post, as always (hey! You're like a bagel!).

I may come back later with further thoughts, but here's what I'm thinking right off: it can work in the other direction, too. A lot of people who do believe in magic don't get what they want because all they do is "dream big." They do an elaborate spell to "make it so," and then go right back to sitting on their arses. If the amazing thing they did the spell for doesn't come through, they say it's because they weren't focusing hard enough on the spell, or the gods have some reason for denying their request. They never take responsibility for the fact that they didn't act on what they dreamed up.

It takes balance. You have to believe that big, crazy, amazing things are possible, and then you have to be able to go out there and make them happen. I don't think you have to believe in magic to believe that big things are possible. Mostly, you have to believe in yourself (easier said than done, I know. Believe me, I know!).

Willing to try a little experiment? Sit down, get comfy, and take a little trance journey to the life you would be living if you did believe in magic and believed that magic could get you all of these big, crazy amazing, things. Sit with that for a while, then pick one of those things you saw in your journey and see what you can do to make it happen. No fancy spells, no "magic" as it's commonly defined: just hard work, high hopes, and maybe a little bit of being in the right place at the right time. Just you.

If anybody I know can do it, it's you!

[cesara]

Wow, cheddar. This is a really dense and chewy post, as always (hey! You're like a bagel!).

I may come back later with further thoughts, but here's what I'm thinking right off: it can work in the other direction, too. A lot of people who do believe in magic don't get what they want because all they do is "dream big." They do an elaborate spell to "make it so," and then go right back to sitting on their arses. If the amazing thing they did the spell for doesn't come through, they say it's because they weren't focusing hard enough on the spell, or the gods have some reason for denying their request. They never take responsibility for the fact that they didn't act on what they dreamed up.

It takes balance. You have to believe that big, crazy, amazing things are possible, and then you have to be able to go out there and make them happen. I don't think you have to believe in magic to believe that big things are possible. Mostly, you have to believe in yourself (easier said than done, I know. Believe me, I know!).

Willing to try a little experiment? Sit down, get comfy, and take a little trance journey to the life you would be living if you did believe in magic and believed that magic could get you all of these big, crazy amazing, things. Sit with that for a while, then pick one of those things you saw in your journey and see what you can do to make it happen. No fancy spells, no "magic" as it's commonly defined: just hard work, high hopes, and maybe a little bit of being in the right place at the right time. Just you.

If anybody I know can do it, it's you!

Great post! Very well said.

Cheddarsox... *huggs* I know exactly what it's like.

I just finished reading The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. (I mean just..like less than an hour ago) Have you read it? It's about the wisdom of knowing what your dreams are and going after them -- it's about listening to, and speaking with the Soul of the World. It's a good book and right in line with your posts.. I would be more than happy to mail it out to you if you think you may want to read it. It certainly doesn't give those coveted answers, but, it most definitely gives you a unique perspective of the questions. PM me if you are interested.

[RavenStars]

I agree with TygerTyger in one important respect: knowing what you truly need.

Magic is frosting. The cake is the hard work of doing everything possible to make it work. In the case of a prayer, I try to do everything I can for the other person, but distance and circumstances may prevent this, so all I can do is light a candle. It may just be a bowl of frosting, but when the very real intention is there it's possible for something to happen. They are the cake in this situation because the recipient and family/friends are doing the hard work.

Magic is a mystery in my opinion. It is gnothi seauton, or know thyself. The Wiccan mystery of not being able to know the Goddess until you find the the divine/answers within yourself. This mystery not only extends within but without. There are undiscovered natural laws. Count on it. In fact, I believe in this. And I don’t believe in a whole lot. Whether they end up calling them magic or not, doesn’t matter to me.

And something that’s been discussed here before, is the supposition of the humyn need of ritual, mystery, and I include magic as well. I need the ritual of the candle and oil, of the carefully worded incantation. I need the darkened room to remind me that there are things I don’t understand. I also need to hear myself state with certainty that something is going to change.

Sure, change is a universal constant. Is is probable that my sister was going to get a job? Yes. Is a candle going to get it for her? No. But when she lit that candle everyday as she started her job hunt, she had a ritual that reminded her to do everything she can and to give up the inevitable depression in order to let something wonderful happen. It did happen. She got salary above what the initial jo description listed. She’s got a great boss and an exciting future for career development.

Please note that my sister doesn’t believe in magic. She just believes that she’ll take whatever help she can get. When you define magic the way I do, it’s doesn’t matter whether you believe or not. The ritual of magic speak to the deeper mind, and illicit the awe and wonder of something far greater then one’s self.

[TygerTyger]

Cheddarsox,

I think you’ve quite clearly indicated what your problem is and it’s got nothing to do with any concept of magic, please don’t take this too much to heart but the problem is yourself; you don’t seem to have any faith in “you” as a person!

Curiously you seem to understand this as you’ve made several direct references to it. I suppose the next step is take the bull by the horns and summon up the courage to discover why you lack faith in yourself?

[cheddarsox]

Cheddarsox,

I think you’ve quite clearly indicated what your problem is and it’s got nothing to do with any concept of magic, please don’t take this too much to heart but the problem is yourself; you don’t seem to have any faith in “you” as a person!

Curiously you seem to understand this as you’ve made several direct references to it. I suppose the next step is take the bull by the horns and summon up the courage to discover why you lack faith in yourself?


Yes, Tyger Tyger, you are right, and I do know why I lack faith in myself, that courage has long ago been summoned! LoL.

thank you for being forthright.

cheddar...off to work

[cheddarsox]

Ok, folks, even though I own up to my issues, I don't think that the issue of "magic", or "intention" or "prayer" or whatever we want to call it has been exhausted!

Yes, I have a personal issue that keeps me from claiming these things or using them on my behalf...but the question on the table is not "what's up with cheddar?"...it is "how does belief affect magic/spellwork/intention/prayer....from a pantheist point of view?"

From my own experience, it seems to have a great deal of affect. I see that I don't get things, because of my lack of belief. (why I don't believe is a related, but separate issue)

I have at times speculated that magic is just another form of hope, a fairy tale that keeps people upbeat while they wade through sh*t, but perhaps there is more to it, and indeed intention alone can affect outcome.

If so...is intention something one can control? Can I do a spell for something, when inside I am very doubtful, and have it be effective, or is my doubt stronger than my outward intent?

Am I projecting what I feel, or what I want?

So far, in my life, elbow grease and sacrifice have been the most effective spellwork. When I believe it is possible, I make it happen. When I don't, I don't bother, even if I want the thing. Am I missing something? Or is that magic in a nutshell?

cheddar

[Xentor]

Intent is the key. As Crowley would say: love is the law, love under will. Without intent you can achieve nothing. How to gain intent? Some would suggest to learn to trust yourself. But how do you do that when you have no faith in yourself? That, at least according to Crowley, can be done by learning your true will. If you act in accordance to your true will, you will succeed. So how do you learn what your true will is? I'd start out by keeping a diary.

Is that magic? To Crowley and his followers (like Israel Regardie), it is. Optimise yourself, and you will optimise your world. This path of magic seems to employ quite a bit of psychology. For me, it worked, and not once during my transitions did I think that I was using magic. If I had known Crowley's writings before attempting my changes, it'd probably been easier. Helas, I learned about him afterwards, and found some of it fitting my situation.

This is why I speak out now. Learning about it afterwards is a nice confirmation, but not really helpful while you're going through it. Calling it magic stops you from using it? Call it something else, call it psychology.

So here's my advise:
- find out who you are
- find out who you want to be
- make it happen

How do you make it happen? I'll give an example. I wanted to be happy. I started very simple, at dressing like those people I thought were happy. Look nice, feel nice. The same is true for music: nice sound, nice feel. It's a tool, nothing more. Later I learned that those people were paid to dress like that and not nearly as happy as I thought, but it already had the desired effect and I was happier. Maybe something as simple as that will do for you, too.

Good luck!

[Eleisawolf]

I'm very similar to Windsmith in the way I believe in magic, but I also believe in a deeper level of it as well. What I mean by a deeper level is "things that seem to resonate in and change my way of being, without me understanding necessarily how or why."

I have cast spells that seem to work on people who don't know they've been cast or even know me. I don't know how that happened. I cast the spells to protect someone else I cared about, but the people I was protecting them from were also affected, in a way that helped my original intent come about, and through no other action of my own or those I was protecting. Do I know how that happened? No. Am I certain that it was coincidence? No. Am I certain that it wasn't? No. That, to me, is magic, and I don't know how it works, or even if it's really just a lucky break, but I believe in the possibility that it's something more, and I work with that.

Then there are the coincidences that occur as if in response to something going on in my life. The most recent, though relatively weak, example is that I was pondering what to do with my Lenten meditation this year. I came up with two things--learning and appreciating the difference between enough and plenty, and trying to reduce my judgmental tendencies. Not five minutes after I posed the first one to myself, I received an email from a friend showing the different levels of "enough" for different people in the world through showing various families from various countries and the amount of food they consume in a week. It was coincidence, but what a perfectly timed coincidence. A few similar issues came up in other places, and that confirmed, for me, that I had made the "right" choice for myself about the enough/plenty lesson. At the same time, and extending further, I saw that reducing judgment was another "right" choice. And not long into Lent, and after not doing very well for some of that time, my dearest friends came to visit, and I witnessed in them what I saw as the kind of judgment that I was trying to limit in myself. And I saw how, when they talked about their judgments, I became defensive, or sad, or even angry, but ultimately uninterested in the conversation. And it woke me up to realize that, without knowing it, they were showing me exactly why I didn't want to be that judgmental person, but instead a person of compassion. And I started listening to them with compassion and letting go of my judgment... since then, I've been improving in my task.

Now, psychologists say that when we learn a new concept, or make a conscious decision about a philosophy or idea, our human, pattern-seeking brain picks up on that and begins to see the same idea where it occurs elsewhere. And I do agree with that. However, what makes me believe in magic is asking--why? Why is our brain programmed to notice these coincidences, however coincidental they may be, converging around a moment when we are truly awake about something? The primitive, concrete brain categorized in order to better survive. But the modern, conceptualizing brain does, too. How does noticing coincidences about spiritual or philisophical matters regarding one's self-actualization help us to better survive? And why did we evolve that way? It's an amazing trait, and I'm constantly in awe of it. Whether the answer is as simple as "it was the easiest path for our evolution to take" or has any further complexities thrown in, I'm not going to judge. I'm just going to take it all in and use it to learn about what it means to be in this universe, to be alive, to be human...

That's magic, to me.

Peace

[RavenStars]

Xentor and Eleisawolf, I just learned somethings from your posts. Thank you.

[cheddarsox]

Thanks all, it helps so much to learn how these things work and are applied in a real person's life. Lots for me to think about...and I think a new six week focus for after the equinox!

[Windsmith]

If so...is intention something one can control? Can I do a spell for something, when inside I am very doubtful, and have it be effective, or is my doubt stronger than my outward intent?Strangely enough, stress reduction is a huge part of magic for me. I tend to overthink everything, and if I dream up something big for myself and don't get it, 9 times out of 10 it's because before I fully finish envisioning it, my brain chucked out 10 reasons it's a bad idea, 10 reasons I won't get it, and 10 things that'll go wrong if I do get it. Magic, if I do it right (right for me, that is), puts me into a relaxed, self-confident state. It engages my senses and my mind and lets me envision the way I want my life to be, while bypassing that inner critic that says it'll never be that way.

My spells always culminate in some sort of physical manifestation. It could be a talisman or magically charged piece of clothing or jewelry that I wear or carry. It could be a phrase to say, accompanied by a gesture. It could be a piece of paper I burn or bury. It could be a dish I eat or a beverage I drink. That creates a trigger in my mind and body that can link me back to the serene, assured state of being I attained during the spell. That way, whenever I need to access that state, I have a tangible object or motion that acts as a shortcut to it.

For instance, I did a job spell about a month ago. I filled my favorite mug with milk, added honey and cinammon, and warmed the concoction in the microwave. I lit some incense and made 2 lists: what I want from a job, and what I have to offer an employer. I sat and sipped my drink and smelled my incense and meditated on my lists - without judgment about myself or the jobs; just considering. I was so relaxed that the Inner Critic never realized it had an opening for sowing seeds of doubt.

A couple weeks later, I had a very important job interview. Before I went into the office, I stopped in to the bathroom and put on chap stick. That's a standard pre-meeting act for me. But since this was Burt's Bees Lip Balm with honey, which was in my spell drink, that simple act instantly connected me to the relaxed state of the spell. No, I didn't get that job, ultimately, but I can't remember when I last felt that good about a job interview, and I don't know that I would've been called back for a second interview without that little bit of magic.

That's what makes magic + elbow grease, for me, a better choice than elbow grease on its own. With stubborn determination and relentless effort alone, I feel responsible for everything that happens. If something goes other than the way I want it to, I spend a lot of time beating myself up. Magic opens me up to accepting the unexpectable. It allows me to acknowledge that, no matter how determined I am, some things are out of my control (I gave the best interview I could, but I didn't have exactly the experience they were looking for. That wasn't up to me). It's one more way to bypass the Inner Critic who always thinks I should be doing more - even when there's nothing more I can do.

That's what magic is to me. I don't have to believe in anything for it to work. It's just about what I observe about myself as I do it.

[Mogget]

I have at times speculated that magic is just another form of hope, a fairy tale that keeps people upbeat while they wade through sh*t, but perhaps there is more to it, and indeed intention alone can affect outcome.

If so...is intention something one can control? Can I do a spell for something, when inside I am very doubtful, and have it be effective, or is my doubt stronger than my outward intent?

Am I projecting what I feel, or what I want?

So far, in my life, elbow grease and sacrifice have been the most effective spellwork. When I believe it is possible, I make it happen. When I don't, I don't bother, even if I want the thing. Am I missing something? Or is that magic in a nutshell?

cheddar

Part of it, from my perspective, is not "belief" but congruence.

Belief that magick will work will get the spell cast and will encourage you to interpet all favorable outcomes as a positive result.

However true congruence in a working will also impel you to take real everyday action (be it ever so slight and unnoticanle), it will stop you from any little acts of self sabotage, it cancels out second guessing and misgivings, it imbues you with itself, fils you with congruence, which is extremely compelling and gets results from other people.

Most people are a little incongruent a lot of the time, when someone comes along and is completely congruent about whatever their thing is, it is damn near irrisistable - especially when couple with rapport and a little ritual the person can hang their hat on.

Rapport, Congruence and Ritual - not a magick ritual necessarily but if you are working with just yourself then maybe you will use magick - but any riutal, whether it is the ritual of going o a date, or the ritual of the job interiew - it gives the person a framework where they can mentally tick boxes "she was polite and punctual" to give themselves the justification for the fact that the pure CONGRUENCE they encountered "had them at hello"

So if someone is congruent about doing magick aand congruent about their outcome they are gonna get better results form someone icongruent about magick, and much better results than someone incongruent about their outcome.