There's no such critter called a "Male Witch"

[Amythyst]

Click Here (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=129214290&blogID=376453809).

[Rudas Starblaze]

:rotfl: why do i call myself a witch? cause i practice witchcraft and cant stand people who use fancy titles for themselves. "witch" is a simple term that needs no explaination. simple as. :lol:

[Aidron]

A.) I don't call myself a 'male witch', I call myself a Witch. Period.

B.) I am not a 'critter'. I am a human being (much to my displeasure due to people such as yourself for points I will illuminate below) and all attempts to refer to me as otherwise will be met with disregard.

C.) The complete lack of proof to which you provide in support of your claim leaves me to view your post as nothing more than "This is what I think and I'm right. I'll hear no more on the matter!", which for the laymen reads as drivel. Provide evidence to your claim or do not expect anyone with half a brain to take you seriously.

D.) If you are going to finish a post with 'case closed', how about you keep it closed? You know, as opposed to re-opening this 'case' of yours by making a post such as this on a public forum which will of course garner some level of response. Apparently you want to shove your opinion down everyone's throat in order to invalidate who they are or find those whom share a similar opinion so that you feel justified in your closed-minded conclusion. After all, if it was a topic you felt was open for further intellectual discussion as opposed to either of the aforementioned you would not end such a post with 'case closed'.

E.) This screams of neo-nazi feminism which gives Dianics a bad name.

F.) I feel happier knowing I am living my life in direct opposition to the viewpoint of someone such as yourself.

[Xentor]

they can never be a Witch, not in my mind anyway

What a limiting mind this person puts forth.

[Merrilyn]

It's her own opinion. So be it.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous.

He is what he is, however he shall call himself.

[Chaos Hawk]

What a limiting mind this person puts forth.

Quoted for truth.

[Dark_Tezcatlipoca]

Some woman on there commented that "Witch is a wicked term that men gave women years and years ago. That very wickedness is part of what gives us our power today. They can't have the word "witch" back."

Yet it wasn't only women that were accused of being witches, it was also less frequently, men.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Yet it wasn't only women that were accused of being witches, it was also less frequently, men.

thats cause we were seldom ever got caught! :rollingla

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Amythyst :

There are times I have agreed with your posts...many ,
for the record...on this one...you are wrong...case closed...

( Oh , however...I will open the case , if you open a closed mind...)

Do remember...a closed mind , nor having a vagina , doth not a witch , wytch , or wietch , make...

Oh , do bring all your girls over here...I am sure...both women , and men here...would more than be their match...I know I would...

And SHE is with me 100%...do you dare ?

[Philosophia]

Even though this is your opinion and you are entitled to it:


Click Here (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=129214290&blogID=376453809).

As a Dianic, I find this comment silly. "Witch" isn't a gender specific word.

[Garnet Heart]

I've never understood the obsession with "owning" words.

If language isn't free and if people aren't free to define themselves in their own terms, we're all in trouble.

[Know Your Rights]

Let him style himself the way he chooses, be it witch, warlock, sorcerer or otherwise, I personally don't care. In my opinion a male can be a witch, if that's what he chooses to style himself...
And to this I pose a question... "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" (Thanks to Shakespeare). From what I understood by those postings, it was said that a male of the particular faith in which a female may call themselves which (thereby, practicing the same things) may not style themselves which, yet any other title is approriate, but it is still the same thing, a sorcerer /is/ the same thing as a male witch, so what does it matter?
The only reason to deny men the right to use 'witch' would be gender discrimination.

Of course, that is strictly my opinion, you may choose to read and agree, read and pelt me with rotten tomatoes, or opt not to read at all, that is your own choice.

[TheWomanMonster]

This thread seriously made me laugh,
who really gives a crap what anyone calls themselves!?

My husband is a witch, I'm a witch... what's the big deal?

(I'm also a bit of a bitch in case no one noticed!! :cutie:)

[Wukong de erzi]

You know, for a post so attached to the meaning of a specific word, the original post is rather ignorant in suggesting any male magic user or pagan could call himself a druid or shaman. Those are specific words with specific definitions, far moreso than witch is.

Also, all the people in that thread should go read The Crucible. John Proctor would be very surprised to learn he was a woman! XD

[Theres]

*yawns a witchy yawn*

much ado about nothing. :rolleyes:

[Aidron]

You know, for a post so attached to the meaning of a specific word, the original post is rather ignorant in suggesting any male magic user or pagan could call himself a druid or shaman. Those are specific words with specific definitions, far moreso than witch is.

Actually, I find that Witch carries with it a very specific definition, regardless of whether the rest of my species wishes to accept that. Witch entails a person who practices magic based on European lore and practice, as opposed to say the magic of the native people of Africa or South America for example. Furthermore, it carries with it a heavier focus on folk or low magic rather than ceremonial or high magic, but does not necessarily reject or ignore the latter.

I also feel that each words like Witch, Sorcerer, Wizard, and so on carry with them a specific aura or feel to them that is unique to each word.

[Shaman7]

It's really a lot of semantics. There are a lot of words throughout the world to describe the people that are healers, seers, casters, diviners, etc. It's sad that we have to argue over labels that came from here vs. there...

I'm "Shaman7" because I liked the sound of it. I know about shamanism, wicca, druidism and a plethora of modern organized religions. I can recognize that different labels came from different regions, but it is our closed mindedness assuming that ancient cultures would be offended if we use their words, especially if we seek to understand and respect the cultures of origin.

People get way too worked up about "don't call yourself this", "call yourself that", etc. Wake up people, words are what they are, spiritualities are what they are. It is a shame that we need one to explain the other...

[RivaWitch]

E.) This screams of neo-nazi feminism which gives Dianics a bad name.

Well said. I see people like this are ones who were "wronged" by men in someway so they feel they must down every part of them.

We go one then my dear. If it makes you feel good to be a Bytchy Wytchy Womyn!!

Riva

[RubyRose]

I think males in this religion can call themselves whatever they wish. Personally it's history that has defined a female to be a witch and a male to be a warlock.

I think charmed redefined it again, by having warlocks be the bad guys, whether they be male or female. The good guys were witches, again, whether they be male or female.

[Gwyddyon]

Given the title, I stopped when I got to "Dianic". And from the responses, I'm guessing I didn't miss much.

Now excuse me while I take my oh-so-masculine "wizarding" energies and do the dishes left over from the breakfast and lunch I made my fiance before she went to work.

[Xander67]

I'm not just a witch, I am a Jedi Witch Baby! :farmerjoe

yep, yer playin with the big boys now buckaroo lol

[IvyWitch]

So....who exactly decided that one has to have a vagina to be a witch? Because, nobody sent me that memo.

[acdb]

What about someone who is transgender? Where do they fit in?

Also, what about someone who was born with both sets of organs?

In any case, I think that this idea is a bit silly.

[SphinYote]

So, can an aesexual bisexual biological female still be considered a witch?

Biologically speaking I'm female (and have the heavy periods and PMS issues to prove it), but I've never been able to make sense of other members of my own gender...at least not the supposedly gender-specific interests.

PMS aside, mentally I tend to be more male than female, if I tend toward any gender specificity at all.

Does that mean I can't consider myself a witch?

Not that I do at this point anyway, only terms that apply right now are agnostic semi-animist.

Still learning.

[SphinYote]

Besides, like every reliion in existance, contemporary witchcraft is an invented religion. There is nothing innate about it, it is just another path to the divine.

Personally, I don't think that divinity is possible when excluding half the population comes into play. To me that goes in the opposite direction.

[Ben Gruagach]

I've encountered Dianic witches who manifested male energy way more than a lot of guys do. Even though they have vaginas, do they still get to call themselves Witches then?

(By the way, if you're a Dianic purist you should be absolutely sure to dissociate yourself from the term Wicca while you're at it. After all, Wicca is the word for a male witch! Wicce is the term for a female witch.)

[RivaWitch]

Also, what about someone who was born with both sets of organs?


Warwitch? Witchlock?

[Lunacie]

Actually, I find that Witch carries with it a very specific definition, regardless of whether the rest of my species wishes to accept that. Witch entails a person who practices magic based on European lore and practice, as opposed to say the magic of the native people of Africa or South America for example. Furthermore, it carries with it a heavier focus on folk or low magic rather than ceremonial or high magic, but does not necessarily reject or ignore the latter.

I also feel that each words like Witch, Sorcerer, Wizard, and so on carry with them a specific aura or feel to them that is unique to each word.

This goes along with what I was thinking as I read through the link and the subsequent posts here - that Witch has more to do with the kind of magic involved than with gender, just as Sorcerer and Wizard are people who do different kinds of magic than a Witch does.

Why is it necessary to say "female Wizard" or "female Sorcerer" or "male Witch" when anyone with the proper training can do or use any of these forms of magic. These are certainly different kinds of magic, but they are not gender specific. In my opinion.

[RivaWitch]

In some African countries they do use the word witch for both male and female.

Riva

[patch]

Instead of echoing what every other person here has said (which I agree with wholeheartedly) I'm going to ask you to provide a source of somekind, or at least explain what on earth leads you to this opinion?

[SphinYote]

Instead of echoing what every other person here has said (which I agree with wholeheartedly) I'm going to ask you to provide a source of somekind, or at least explain what on earth leads you to this opinion?

I'd actually be interested, too, since I don't know of any historical documents that would support such a claim. It seems to be at best, as near as I can tell, date back to the 1980s in some of the more extreme forms of feminist pagan politics.

I say more extreme forms because "feminist" can encompass a lot, and by some definitions of the term I most cerainly am one, but in terms of the more extreme political agenda espoused by some, b those definitions I'm not....

Edit: Note that I've not reached this conclusion thru research on my own, but just a general half-sense of what ideas become prominent when, and I could be very mistaken, I'd be interested to know either way.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

As regards getting an answer to that , from the OP...

Not sure...Ahem...I did just happen to notice...

The OP was looking at the thread this morning...

Then disappeared , rather quickly...perhaps gathering the
information some are requesting ?

Or not...

[LostSheep]

Click Here (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=129214290&blogID=376453809).


Why men would fight and squabble to be called a word that is in many minds associated so strongly with the feminine is beyond me.

I can only presume, then, that you're unfamiliar with either Gerald Gardner or Alex Sanders.

:hrmm:

[SphinYote]

Not sure...Ahem...I did just happen to notice...
The OP was looking at the thread this morning...
Then disappeared , rather quickly...

Yes, I noticed the same thing.

[Infinite Grey]

People can call themselves what ever they want, the only true effect it has on me personally is some form of superficial emotion: usually amusement or irritation. In any case, titles offer ample opportunities for sardonic and snide remarks... which makes me happy.


they can never be a Witch, not in my mind anyway.

On this note, when ever any one uses the phrase "in my mind " I can't help but wonder why that person would labour under the illusion that I or anyone of any significance would be truly interested what is in their mind -- well, maybe their credit card numbers -- If someone has to resort to this ingenuously incorporeal assertion they are demonstrating a distinctly unsubstantial presupposition.

[Russ]

I do believe we are victims of a post and run...

[Amythyst]

As regards getting an answer to that , from the OP...

Not sure...Ahem...I did just happen to notice...

The OP was looking at the thread this morning...

Then disappeared , rather quickly...perhaps gathering the
information some are requesting ?

Or not...





Why, my dear man, I"ve been off and on here ever since I placed this post. It's been interesting and most amusing to drop this little stone upon this pond and then sit back and watch the ripples.

First...

1. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion.

2. I am entitled to voice my own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority.

3. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.

Two psychological aspects of this little endeavor stand out for me: Approval and Opposition.

"Approval"-- I noticed that several of the males that responded were outraged and offended by my opinion. Interesting. Each male that responded in this temperament was incredibly upset that I (one female) did not consider him a witch. Does this mean that we all need Approval to validate our existence? It seems that this need for approval begins very early in life-- first with our parents-- then with teachers, employers, peers, partners, etc. I thought this was most interesting.

"Opposition"-- When confronted by someone with a viewpoint completely counter to their own, people seem to react almost with an adrenalin rush of "flight or fight". It appears that the human psyche grates at the thought of Opposition, as though someone with a viewpoint opposite to their own is a threat in some way. This I'd like to think on some more.

By the way, my opinion still stands.

[LostSheep]

Bored, then, were we?

[BlackLili]

My word... what an unnecessary, poorly-written, and intentionally inflammatory post.


It's been interesting and most amusing to drop this little stone upon this pond and then sit back and watch the ripples.


Someone looking to start trouble because their own life isn't interesting enough. So be it then, May You Have A More Interesting Life, Amythyst.


It never ceases to amuse me when these small-minded posts pop up and are given rational reasonable arguments - and then the OP turns around and says "I can say anything I want so nyeah :-P " - I mean really. Why do folks give a rat's ass about what someone else practices or calls themself while doing so? And must the posts be so very poorly-written?

[Ben Gruagach]

Having the right to voice one's opinion does not also mean being immune from others voicing their own opposing opinions.

Everyone is entitled to redefine words in whatever way they want. And everyone else is entitled to laugh at how shortsighted (or closeminded) that redefinition might be.

Redefining the word "witch" to try and exclude men brings up a big question for me: how does one truly defeat sexism by practicing reverse sexism?

[Amythyst]

My word... what an unnecessary, poorly-written, and intentionally inflammatory post.



Someone looking to start trouble because their own life isn't interesting enough. So be it then, May You Have A More Interesting Life, Amythyst.


It never ceases to amuse me when these small-minded posts pop up and are given rational reasonable arguments - and then the OP turns around and says "I can say anything I want so nyeah :-P " - I mean really. Why do folks give a rat's ass about what someone else practices or calls themself while doing so? And must the posts be so very poorly-written?




1. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion.

2. I am entitled to voice my own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority.

3. I am entitle to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.

I am presuming-- and maybe being presumptuous-- to assume that people come on sites like this to voice their opinions on a variety of topics. I've seen many a post that has been nothing but drivel, flirting back and forth, etc. I've also seen posts that have been constructive arguments, informative classes, etc.

I am exercising my right as a member of this community to post my thoughts-- it is not required that you read them.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Why my dear woman , I have been observing , as I go between new posts , and Who's online...and that is so interesting...we must have missed one another...now...

Asa far as your points , 1 , 2 , 3 ...I have no problem with that...

However , I did state you were wrong , just as emphatically as you
stated you were right...as many others here , have the same rights
and have stated their viewpoints , many of them women , still
disagreeing with you...personally , I don't give a badger's buttocks
about your approval , or anyone else's...

I was raised not to give a **** what other people thought...but to
care about other people...let alone , I am a Wietch , not a witch...

And emotional , and mental manipulation , again , doth not a witch make...

You still have not supplied a shred of any evidence , which members
here have requested...personally , again , I don't care if you do...

I have nothing invested here , other than to tell you your opinion
is full of it...it is you who started this...I do believe you should be
addressing others on the issues they asked you to respond to...

Again , if you dare...IMO , a witch by any name...has integrity...

Manipulation , for purposes of observance...does not show that ,
and I am sure there must be some substance behind your claim...

Perhaps you should show your real hand ?






Why, my dear man, I"ve been off and on here ever since I placed this post. It's been interesting and most amusing to drop this little stone upon this pond and then sit back and watch the ripples.

First...

1. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion.

2. I am entitled to voice my own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority.

3. I am entitle to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.

Two psychological aspects of this little endeavor stand out for me: Approval and Opposition.

"Approval"-- I noticed that several of the males that responded were outraged and offended by my opinion. Interesting. Each male that responded in this temperament was incredibly upset that I (one female) did not consider him a witch. Does this mean that we all need Approval to validate our existence? It seems that this need for approval begins very early in life-- first with our parents-- then with teachers, employers, peers, partners, etc. I thought this was most interesting.

"Opposition"-- When confronted by someone with a viewpoint completely counter to their own, people seem to react almost with an adrenalin rush of "flight or fight". It appears that the human psyche grates at the thought of Opposition, as though someone with a viewpoint opposite to their own is a threat in some way. This I'd like to think on some more.

By the way, my opinion still stands.

[Gwyddyon]

3. I am entitle to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.

I sincerely hope that is only in reference to MW terms of use. Because anybody who honestly believes that they are ENTITLED to not be insulted in everyday life is begging for whatever they get and more.

[Aidron]

Why, my dear man, I"ve been off and on here ever since I placed this post. It's been interesting and most amusing to drop this little stone upon this pond and then sit back and watch the ripples.

So, apparently the life of your almighty Witchiness is not interesting or multi-dimensional enough to keep you captivated and thus you are forced to create a thread containing nothing more than an example of what a snob you are on a public forum for your own amusement? Why, that's not childish or immature in the least. What are you, like 40-something? Have you considered that it's maybe time to grow up?



First...

1. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion.


Why bother? As I said, you obviously must want some form of validation from others who share your narrow-minded view point, an outlet to be heard because in reality you feel you rarely are in life, or because you are validating yourself by attempting to invalidate others. Yes, you are entitled to voice your opinion, but you have no logical reason to do so here under these circumstances. This is not your website or myspace page. This is a public forum, and by its nature it is a place for discussion, so why would you post an opinion when you believe the matter to be 'closed'? If this was your site those who disagreed or were offended could simply leave, as that's your space after all. This is a public space, share by a community of individuals, and you think you have the right to come in here and professing your bigotry without any consequence? Yeah, how dare we strike back at you with a vengeance. I mean, we have some kind of nerve.



2. I am entitled to voice my own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority.

See my above response. Also, there's a good reason your opinion differs from the majority - because it's not rooted in common sense.



3. I am entitle to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.

Your opinion, by its very nature, is a personal attack. You are attempting to put forth an idea that invalidates a good majority of this community. I guess your own medicine tastes pretty bitter. Poor you.



Two psychological aspects of this little endeavor stand out for me: Approval and Opposition.

"Approval"-- I noticed that several of the males that responded were outraged and offended by my opinion. Interesting. Each male that responded in this temperament was incredibly upset that I (one female) did not consider him a witch. Does this mean that we all need Approval to validate our existence? It seems that this need for approval begins very early in life-- first with our parents-- then with teachers, employers, peers, partners, etc. I thought this was most interesting.

I am neither outraged or offended. I am, however, amused that you, like most of my species, even exist.

Also, please spare me your attempts to shove your hypocritical approval psycho-babble on me. I'm not the one who posted and opinion on a bloody myspace blog, ended the entry with 'case closed', and then posted a link to said entry on a public forum. If anyone is looking for validation, it's you.



"Opposition"-- When confronted by someone with a viewpoint completely counter to their own, people seem to react almost with an adrenalin rush of "flight or fight". It appears that the human psyche grates at the thought of Opposition, as though someone with a viewpoint opposite to their own is a threat in some way. This I'd like to think on some more.

You mean a viewpoint that claims I am invalid? Oh my, now why would I have any reason to be bothered by that? I mean, you're certainly not in opposition of who I am or anything.


By the way, my opinion still stands.

Huzzahs for you. My opinion of you still stands, and let me tell you, if you're supposed to be a fine, upstanding example of womahood it's no wonder I'm a bloody fag.

[LostSheep]

Would you, perhaps, care to offer any furtherance to your argument, considering that many people have endeavoured to offer counter-arguments to your own, and were not merely "outraged and offended"? I'm sure that many would be interested.

[RivaWitch]

Why, my dear man, I"ve been off and on here ever since I placed this post. It's been interesting and most amusing to drop this little stone upon this pond and then sit back and watch the ripples.

First...

1. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion.

2. I am entitled to voice my own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority.

3. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.

Two psychological aspects of this little endeavor stand out for me: Approval and Opposition.

"Approval"-- I noticed that several of the males that responded were outraged and offended by my opinion. Interesting. Each male that responded in this temperament was incredibly upset that I (one female) did not consider him a witch. Does this mean that we all need Approval to validate our existence? It seems that this need for approval begins very early in life-- first with our parents-- then with teachers, employers, peers, partners, etc. I thought this was most interesting.

"Opposition"-- When confronted by someone with a viewpoint completely counter to their own, people seem to react almost with an adrenalin rush of "flight or fight". It appears that the human psyche grates at the thought of Opposition, as though someone with a viewpoint opposite to their own is a threat in some way. This I'd like to think on some more.

By the way, my opinion still stands.


Ahh stating that Male's can not be Witches IS a personal attack on someone!!

[RivaWitch]

Huzzahs for you. My opinion of you still stands, and let me tell you, if you're supposed to be a fine, upstanding example of womahood it's no wonder I'm a bloody fag.


The best response!!!!!:rotfl::fpraise:

Riva

[Amythyst]

Ahh stating that Male's can not be Witches IS a personal attack on someone!!


That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

[Lunacie]

Would you, perhaps, care to offer any furtherance to your argument, considering that many people have endeavoured to offer counter-arguments to your own, and were not merely "outraged and offended"? I'm sure that many would be interested.

Indeed. While it has been "interesting and amusing" to see the reaction of Amethyst to logical and well-written responses, it has been somewhat disappointing that her only reaction was to lump all the responses as defensive counter-attacks.

But, frankly I have better things to do with my time than engage in a debate over something as silly as this. I have done what I could to correct the misinformation and anything further would be pointless.

However, if I have any free time tomorrow I'll check back and see how things are going. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that the thread has been closed.

[RivaWitch]

That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

No, just stating my opinion. Is that OK? BTW viewing your wesite you sound awfully Wiccan (my opinion) Also it's hoodoo Not HooDoo (Not my opinion but fact)

Good~day :spinnysmi

Riva

[Shawn Blackwolf]

That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

Nah...the stake has better things to do...just like me...

I'm off to run errands...maybe talk to a brick wall ,
and have a better conversation...:lol:

[TheWomanMonster]

That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

I don't think anyone wants you to change your mind on this statement my dear, but merely to elaborate on the sources of your information and what basis you have formed this opinion on.

Just because the majority is disagreeing with you on this point doesn't mean that there is a reason not to try and discuss this in an intellectual manner.

[Lunacie]

That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

Oooh, rhetoric and victimhood - even though you have probably never been tortured in your life you belong to some secret sisterhood of witches who were tortured in the past. I'm so impressed now . . .

. . . not.

[SphinYote]

I didn't see any outrage.

Interesting that people see only what they want to see. (I'm guilty of that too from time to time, admittedly).

The outrage she perceives, that doesn't actually exist here, is her mind's way of validating her opinion.

Which she's welcome to.

But, opinions are absolutely meaningless to anyone else without factual validation to back them up.

My question still stands.

Historical validation?

None?

Then what was your purpose in posting?

My question was intended to generate meaningful conversation, as were others.

Just stating an opinion and going "nyanya its my opinion" was never intended to start meaningful discussion.

There is a slight sense of irritation right now, because posts like this that don't have validation behind them beyond "Its my opinion" really demean the spirituality she claims to be supporting, if someone comes along and reads it who isn't familiar with the movements. An ingnorant person might read it as an opinion representative of the movements, which it is not, except her movement of one.

Yote

[Caitlin.ann]

I'm hoping if we ignore it it will go away.

[RivaWitch]

Just one more thing I would like to say.
You posted a so-called fact about who can and cannot be a Witch.
Then you repeatedly made the statement that it was your opinion. Now WITCH is it (get it! lol) Anyway, I personally do not see Witchcraft as a religion but a craft. That is my opinion. But however unlike you I would never just jump in here post "Witchcraft is not and never was a religion" and go.
I hold nothing against and have nothing against anyone practicing Witchcraft as a religion.

So instead of repeating your I stand by my statement back up your claim. That is all we are asking for.

You say you are fifty but act like you're five.

[SphinYote]

I'm hoping if we ignore it it will go away.

So why are you here? :D

For that matter, why am I, when I know my post, if she deigns to respond to it, will probably be twisted around into something completely different than its intended spirit, as all of the rest of the posts have been already.

Though given what she's said, I highly suspect that this is just a hoax meant to rattle people. I sincerely doubt anyone who actually knew anything about witchcraft and its history would be making the claims she's making...if she's even a "she", I've known at least one guy who got a kick out of undermining alternative spiritual movments in this way...that you Steve?

Or one of the discordians in disguise....

Though I have to admit, if it is a hoax, they certainly have too much free time on their hands, having made a site and everything--Steve did this, too, though. Don't know whether to applaud that or tell them to get a hobby....

[Aidron]

That is my opinion and it still stands.

Yes, we all get it. You're not changing your opinion. Are you familiar with the term 'broken record'?

Besides, who said anyone was trying to change your opinion? You posted in a public forum, yet refuse to discuss the matter as to which you posted about. What are you trying to do here, act as a martyr for all the poor, oppressed women of the world? Wake up , there are a lot more dire issues women face than this. How about you go try your hand at one of those as opposed to this nonsense?



What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

Or at least until I'm sufficiently amused.

Seriously, are you trying to bait people to attack you or something? You keep insisting that your opinion is blah blah blah, you're not changing it blah blah blah, and that anyone who disagrees with you is blah blah blah. Is this some self-righteous "I will stand up against those who do not accept my reality and not be persecuted!" bullshit? As the son of a self-admitted flora fanatic I assure you, I am quite familiar with the robust aroma of manure, and you are rank with it.

[Caitlin.ann]

So why are you here? :D

For that matter, why am I, when I know my post, if she deigns to respond to it, will probably be twisted around into something completely different than its intended spirit, as all of the rest of the posts have been already.



True true..just saying.

[Infinite Grey]

witch /wɪtʃ/
–noun
1. a person, now esp. a woman, who professes or is supposed to practice magic, esp. black magic or the black art; sorceress. Compare warlock.
2. an ugly or mean old woman; hag: the old witch who used to own this building.
3. a person who uses a divining rod; dowser.
–verb (used with object)
4. to bring by or as by witchcraft (often fol. by into, to, etc.): She witched him into going.
5. Archaic. to affect as if by witchcraft; bewitch; charm.
–verb (used without object)
6. to prospect with a divining rod; dowse.
–adjective
7. of, pertaining to, or designed as protection against witches.



Online Etymology Dictionary
witch
O.E. wicce "female magician, sorceress," in later use esp. "a woman supposed to have dealings with the devil or evil spirits and to be able by their cooperation to perform supernatural acts," fem. of O.E. wicca "sorcerer, wizard, man who practices witchcraft or magic," from verb wiccian "to practice witchcraft" (cf. Low Ger. wikken, wicken "to use witchcraft," wikker, wicker "soothsayer"). OED says of uncertain origin. Klein suggests connection with O.E. wigle "divination," and wig, wih "idol." Watkins says the nouns represent a P.Gmc. *wikkjaz "necromancer" (one who wakes the dead), from PIE *weg-yo-, from *weg- "to be strong, be lively." That wicce once had a more specific sense than the later general one of "female magician, sorceress" perhaps is suggested by the presence of other words in O.E. describing more specific kinds of magical craft. In the Laws of Ælfred (c.890), witchcraft was specifically singled out as a woman's craft, whose practitioners were not to be suffered to live among the W. Saxons:

"Ða fæmnan þe gewuniað onfon gealdorcræftigan & scinlæcan & wiccan, ne læt þu ða libban."

The other two words combined with it here are gealdricge, a woman who practices "incantations," and scinlæce "female wizard, woman magician," from a root meaning "phantom, evil spirit." Another word that appears in the Anglo-Saxon laws is lyblæca "wizard, sorcerer," but with suggestions of skill in the use of drugs, since the root of the word is lybb "drug, poison, charm." Lybbestre was a fem. word meaning "sorceress," and lybcorn was the name of a certain medicinal seed (perhaps wild saffron). Weekly notes possible connection to Gothic weihs "holy" and Ger. weihan "consecrate," and writes, "the priests of a suppressed religion naturally become magicians to its successors or opponents." In Anglo-Saxon glossaries, wicca renders L. augur (c.1100), and wicce stands for "pythoness, divinatricem." In the "Three Kings of Cologne" (c.1400) wicca translates Magi:

"Þe paynyms ... cleped þe iij kyngis Magos, þat is to seye wicchis."

The glossary translates L. necromantia ("demonum invocatio") with galdre, wiccecræft. The Anglo-Saxon poem called "Men's Crafts" has wiccræft, which appears to be the same word, and by its context means "skill with horses." In a c.1250 translation of "Exodus," witches is used of the Egyptian midwives who save the newborn sons of the Hebrews: "Ðe wicches hidden hem for-ðan, Biforen pharaun nolden he ben." Witch in ref. to a man survived in dialect into 20c., but the fem. form was so dominant by 1601 that men-witches or he-witch began to be used. Extended sense of "young woman or girl of bewitching aspect or manners" is first recorded 1740. Witch doctor is from 1718; applied to African magicians from 1836.

"At this day it is indifferent to say in the English tongue


Case closed.

Now make the world just a little more of a better place and cut out the victim feminazi routine - it does you no favours anyways.

[skilly-nilly]

Click Here (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=129214290&blogID=376453809).

This is just silly and deliberately provocative in a very obvious way; the only thing that can't be done "unless they have a vagina" is vaginal delivery of a baby--for everything else there are other choices. As a feminist, I find the idea that having a vagina qualifies or disqualifies you in any way as per identity very narrow-minded.


Instead of echoing what every other person here has said (which I agree with wholeheartedly) I'm going to ask you to provide a source of somekind, or at least explain what on earth leads you to this opinion?

This post, however, made me think. Obviously there can be no source because it's an inherantly ridiculous opinion (not that everyone's not perfectly justified in holding whatever opinion they wish to) but what does define witchness?

Using Magic, I think, and further using it at the behest of or directed towards others. And differently than a Ceremonial Magician. And of European heritage, magically if not ethnically.

Historically, 'Cunning People' and 'Yarb' or 'Root Doctors' were of both sexes.

[MidnightFire]

That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride

I'm afraid it has come to the point where nothing we say is going to sway her on her "opinion". Along with the fact that she seems to refuse to provide any evidence supporting her opinion.

I agree this is her opinion and she has the right to state it. What she doesn't have the right to is posting it into a public forum where she knows it will cause a debate and when she clearly has no intention of discussing it logically. And after reading her post, it was obviously meant to cause turmoil.


Why, my dear man, I"ve been off and on here ever since I placed this post. It's been interesting and most amusing to drop this little stone upon this pond and then sit back and watch the ripples.


And it is quite refreshing to see her admit that she has nothing better to do with her day than to cause drama where none existed or was needed.

Forgive me for saying this, as I'm sure some will take it harshly, but is this really the example you would want to set for your children? If you have an opinion it doesn't matter if there is anything to support it, forget about debating it with someone, just tell them it is your opinion and your sticking to it.

Before claiming you're being "attacked" for your opinion, maybe you should reconsider posting it for all to see and then using the sad excuse of it's your opinion and you're sticking to it.

[SphinYote]

This post, however, made me think. Obviously there can be no source because it's an inherantly ridiculous opinion (not that everyone's not perfectly justified in holding whatever opinion they wish to) but what does define witchness?


Yet she, if she really does hold the opinion she claims to, isn't the only one. I have encountered a few, very few, and I know that it isn't the opinion of most witches, nor the historical reality.

However if I were just starting to ask questions, that kind of blatant sexist attitude would certainly make me run away as far and fast as I could. Its unfortunate that the few who hod her opinion are so vocal, as it DOES alter people's perception of witchcraft, and I know several people who have a negative opinion, who would certainly quote her site to support their claims that all witches are man-hating devil worshipers (at least the man-hating part).

She really really helps those who oppose witchcraft find more excuses to persecute, as sites like hers only feed the fears of other ignorant people.

And that right there is enough to make me believe "her" site might well be a hoax, designed to inspire fear and prejudice and certainly to alienate people from the craft/alternate spiritual movements in general...

[Phoenix Blue]

3. I am entitle to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.
Someone disagreed with you. That doesn't equate to a personal attack. Frankly, no one here has attacked you -- and if you can't deal with people strongly disagreeing with your opinion, that's no one's problem but yours.

[~Elise~]

*sniff, sniff* Hmmm...I smell a Troll.

JMO and YMMV

[Philosophia]

So, can an asexual bisexual biological female still be considered a witch?

I know I do and I'm an asexual bisexual biological female.

Edit: Just a friendly note...Amethyst's opinion of male "witches" isn't common in Dianic circles. I only know 3-4 other witches (2 that don't call themselves Dianics) that have that same opinion.

[Moonlight's Daughter]

So....who exactly decided that one has to have a vagina to be a witch? Because, nobody sent me that memo.


Me either. Witch is NOT gender specific. And men are people. I am a woman and I took offence that she called men "Critters"

[RivaWitch]

Amethyst keep it on the board. I deleted your PM.

[aluokaloo]

says who amethyst? since when were you the top authority on the matter? They can be a druid? But a Druid is not gender specific, it is specific to a certain faith. A Shaman is a specific title I believe mainly in tribal cultures., so does that mean that anyone without a penis is unable to be one of those? That is an incredibly close minded post you have there. Many guys who practice in the craft often call themselves witches.

[Aidron]

says who amethyst? since when were you the top authority on the matter? They can be a druid? But a Druid is not gender specific, it is specific to a certain faith. A Shaman is a specific title I believe mainly in tribal cultures., so does that mean that anyone without a penis is unable to be one of those? That is an incredibly close minded post you have there. Many guys who practice in the craft often call themselves witches.

Oh no, I'm sure how this works is that a woman can be anything, but if you don't have ovaries and a womb, you're restricted to who you can be and what you can do. After all, I'm completely unworthy since I do not bleed for days at a time once a month, get bloated, suffer from mood swings, and experience terrible cramps.

[Phoenix Blue]

Oh no, I'm sure how this works is that a woman can be anything, but if you don't have ovaries and a womb, you're restricted to who you can be and what you can do. After all, I'm completely unworthy since I do not bleed for days at a time once a month, get bloated, suffer from mood swings, and experience terrible cramps.
ADMIN MODE

Awright, that's enough of that. Sexism is not respectful.

[Aidron]

ADMIN MODE

Awright, that's enough of that. Sexism is not respectful.

That wasn't sexism. That was satire with the careful use of a hyperbole.

[EvieLee]

I know I do and I'm an asexual bisexual biological female.

Edit: Just a friendly note...Amethyst's opinion of male "witches" isn't common in Dianic circles. I only know 3-4 other witches (2 that don't call themselves Dianics) that have that same opinion.

I'd hope MW-er's would try not to paint us all with the same brush that Amethyst is earning for herself. 8O

[Glowy]

I've never understood the obsession with "owning" words.

If language isn't free and if people aren't free to define themselves in their own terms, we're all in trouble.
lots of words in different languages are gender specific,


Witch- tends to be viewed as female specific due to folk lore and trendy holiday decorations.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Witch- tends to be viewed as female specific due to folk lore and trendy holiday decorations.

Agreed...

However , this is the view of mundanes , indoctrinated by
mundanes , via mind pablum for the masses...

We are on a website , where there are not only some initiates ,
yet also those well researched , and / or well educated...we may
not all agree on anything , but there is general concensus on
certain things...

I have had to deal with attempting , successfully , or not , to
substantiate , as best I could...not to everyone's satisfaction ,
I am aware...things I have stated...

That is all anyone here was asking for...not folk tales...not
holiday decor...but some type of backup to the OP...

I would accept...Oral Tradition...wouldn't agree...but I
would accept that as her Tradition...but nothing , other
than empty words...

That is where the problem is occurring...

[SilverClaw]

Originally Posted by Amythyst [original] (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3494157#post3494157)

That is my opinion and it still stands.

What do you think you're going to do, tie me to a wooden stake and torture me until you get me to change my mind?

:broomride
Well howdy Amythyst long time no see, and (no I would not tie you to a stake :nyah: ) :) I have to ask why do you have such a view? What happened to have you come to such a conclusion?

[Wukong de erzi]

ADMIN MODE

Awright, that's enough of that. Sexism is not respectful.
The original post about how men cannot be witches is allowed, and apparently considered not sexist, but a little sarcasm in response is not?

Anyway, Amythyst, if you want to be a martyr so badly I'm sure there are other places you could post that would love your flame bait. LiveJournal might be a more receptive audience for you. Try the community "nonfluffypagans". :)

[Rudas Starblaze]

wicca needs a martyr. it is the only religion that i recall thats never had one after all. :lol:

[BlackMagicalCat]

What do I know.
Men and women are different,,I cant know the Goddess like a woman can,,I can be blessed with her magick,,and it may work,,but the Goddess made me a man.

My job is to serve and know the Goddess as a man,who cares what anyone else calls me.A mans function if it is apointed to him is to serve,,bless,protect ,and assist the HPss in her service to the Goddess.

I suspect a woman has a personal connection to the Goddess I may never experience. I dont have cycles,,I cant have a baby,,I cant give birth,,nor feel the pain of giving birth.

I dont know what its like being a woman,,so I will serve the Goddess as a man.
The sun cant be the moon,,and the moon cant be the sun.The sun cant be the earth,,nor can it bring forth the grass,,and trees,,and forests,,it cant feed the birds,,the animals with its green herbs,,only the earth can do that.

The sun gives the earth its energy,,and the earth gives birth to life.The sun cant do what the earth does,,and the earth cant do what the sun does.

But they both need each other to bring forth life.

[BlackMagicalCat]

wicca needs a martyr. it is the only religion that i recall thats never had one after all. :lol:

Well,,,speaking of wicca needing martyrs,,what about satanist?

Who are your martyrs?

How ancient is your religion?

Where is your diety whom some satanist declare doesnt exist,,where is he found?

In the bible of course.

[aluokaloo]

What do I know.
Men and women are different,,I cant know the Goddess like a woman can,,I can be blessed with her magick,,and it may work,,but the Goddess made me a man.

My job is to serve and know the Goddess as a man,who cares what anyone else calls me.A mans function if it is apointed to him is to serve,,bless,protect ,and assist the HPss in her service to the Goddess.

I suspect a woman has a personal connection to the Goddess I may never experience. I dont have cycles,,I cant have a baby,,I cant give birth,,nor feel the pain of giving birth.

I dont know what its like being a woman,,so I will serve the Goddess as a man.
The sun cant be the moon,,and the moon cant be the sun.The sun cant be the earth,,nor can it bring forth the grass,,and trees,,and forests,,it cant feed the birds,,the animals with its green herbs,,only the earth can do that.

The sun gives the earth its energy,,and the earth gives birth to life.The sun cant do what the earth does,,and the earth cant do what the sun does.

But they both need each other to bring forth life.

beautifully spoken azzy

[aluokaloo]

Well,,,speaking of wicca needing martyrs,,what about satanist?

Who are your martyrs?

How ancient is your religion?

Where is your diety whom some satanist declare doesnt exist,,where is he found?

In the bible of course.

that was tad unnecessary though

[Rudas Starblaze]

Well,,,speaking of wicca needing martyrs,,what about satanist?

Who are your martyrs?

How ancient is your religion?

Where is your diety whom some satanist declare doesnt exist,,where is he found?

In the bible of course.

lmfao!!! who said i was a satanist!!?? :rotfl:
just because i know the satanic bible inside and out and upside down and was the forum guide for a while doesnt make me a satanist. and to accuse me of it is well..... ignorant.

but then again, what can i expect from someone who was telling someone very close to me that i wasnt who i said i was? :lol:

[BlackMagicalCat]

Hey,,its raining outside,,lol

And Tabitha is curled up inside a drawer.

Well,,off to bed..see ya.

(I have to shut off my computer while it is lightning outside)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

This may be your path , Azzeenasman...

Blessings on it...sure isn't mine...so please refrain from telling
me , or for that matter , other men , what our function is...

In my Tradition , and IMO , to serve is for slaves...

I am the consort of the Faery Queen...by her choosing...

You are speaking of a very limited view of a Witch , and the
tradition...I don't need a High Priestess , for my connection...

And my path , is very different...I am a Wietch , not witch...

And I may be male on the outer...but my inner feminine is just as potent ,
if not more so , as my outer male...that is the androgynous
balance , necessary , for the solitary practitioner...IMO...and my
experience...

My High Priestess , and I , when I choose one , practice my only
religion...SEX...practice , practice , practice...:lol:



What do I know.
Men and women are different,,I cant know the Goddess like a woman can,,I can be blessed with her magick,,and it may work,,but the Goddess made me a man.

My job is to serve and know the Goddess as a man,who cares what anyone else calls me.A mans function if it is apointed to him is to serve,,bless,protect ,and assist the HPss in her service to the Goddess.

I suspect a woman has a personal connection to the Goddess I may never experience. I dont have cycles,,I cant have a baby,,I cant give birth,,nor feel the pain of giving birth.

I dont know what its like being a woman,,so I will serve the Goddess as a man.
The sun cant be the moon,,and the moon cant be the sun.The sun cant be the earth,,nor can it bring forth the grass,,and trees,,and forests,,it cant feed the birds,,the animals with its green herbs,,only the earth can do that.

The sun gives the earth its energy,,and the earth gives birth to life.The sun cant do what the earth does,,and the earth cant do what the sun does.

But they both need each other to bring forth life.

[LostSheep]

Would you, perhaps, care to offer any furtherance to your argument, considering that many people have endeavoured to offer counter-arguments to your own, and were not merely "outraged and offended"? I'm sure that many would be interested.

Has there been any endeavour to answer this, and similar questions, yet?

[LostSheep]

It appears not.

*wonders if this was a campaign to increase the number of hits on site linked to*


*cynical, yes*

[Shawn Blackwolf]

You made a truly respectful , and nice try , Lost Sheep...

But...no...no answer forthcoming...not on the thread , but
other methods of attack were persued , under the scenes...

But that is another story , and I be a good boy...:lol:

[aluokaloo]

You made a truly respectful , and nice try , Lost Sheep...

But...no...no answer forthcoming...not on the thread , but
other methods of attack were persued , under the scenes...

But that is another story , and I be a good boy...:lol:

*discreetly tosses shawn a biscuit*

[MoonlightShadow]

Warwitch? Witchlock?

Warwitch..hmm..I like it. I like it a lot.

[BlackMagicalCat]

This may be your path , Azzeenasman...

Blessings on it...sure isn't mine...so please refrain from telling
me , or for that matter , other men , what our function is...

In my Tradition , and IMO , to serve is for slaves...

I am the consort of the Faery Queen...by her choosing...

You are speaking of a very limited view of a Witch , and the
tradition...I don't need a High Priestess , for my connection...

And my path , is very different...I am a Wietch , not witch...

And I may be male on the outer...but my inner feminine is just as potent ,
if not more so , as my outer male...that is the androgynous
balance , necessary , for the solitary practitioner...IMO...and my
experience...

My High Priestess , and I , when I choose one , practice my only
religion...SEX...practice , practice , practice...:lol:
You popped your little head into this world from the womb of a woman,if you cant have a baby,,you dont know what its like to be a woman. And who are you to tell me what to refrain from saying?

Who made you my mother?

[Infinite Grey]

You popped your little head into this world from the womb of a woman,if you cant have a baby,,you dont know what its like to be a woman.

1> So what? Women do not know what it's like to be a man
2> You can know what it is like to be a woman, just bump up your estrogen and hang around a very pregnant woman or one that is menstruating.
3> or, there is surgery.

[Sage Rainsong]

First...

1. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion.

2. I am entitled to voice my own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority.

3. I am entitled to voice own viewpoint/opinion even if it differs from the majority without being subject to any personal attacks.


The only thing that I have for you is a simple quote:

"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." Hubert Humphrey

[Xander67]

Some tribe around the world have "Witch Doctors" that perform healing and other spiritual works. It is usually a male who does this although some tribes use a woman.


In some African countries they do use the word witch for both male and female.

Riva

[Xander67]

1> So what? Women do not know what it's like to be a man
2> You can know what it is like to be a woman, just bump up your estrogen and hang around a very pregnant woman or one that is menstruating.
3> or, there is surgery.

I will disagree with this. For two reasons. :nicetie:

First, a man can never feel the intensity and the complexity of the female psyche. Women have their own genetical makeup, complex emotional and astral bodies as well. Men can sympathize with a woman but never emphasize.

Second, even with a transgendered male to female the dna and emotional structure well be male at the core. The opposite polarity on the cosmic circuit.

Those born with both sets or organs. I would say that it may be possible for this person to know what it is like to be both a male and a female if they have male and female hormones and genetic makeups.

[Infinite Grey]

I will disagree with this. For two reasons. :nicetie:

It is your right and priviledge to disagree with me, it's healthy and welcome... doesn't make you right though. :smileroll


First, a man can never feel the intensity and the complexity of the female psyche. Women have their own genetical makeup, complex emotional and astral bodies as well. Men can sympathize with a woman but never emphasize.

Everyone starts out as female, it isn't until a certain stage of development that you're ovaries drop and become testicles. Genetically male and females are not that dissimilar.

The emotions are hormonally driven, chemical reactions in the brain. Easy enough to simulate in a male; as we both have the same basic chemicals, just in different dosages.

Astral bodies are completely irrelevant as they are not falsifiable or observable. In my opinion they are flights of fancy, but again, that is my opinion.


Second, even with a transgendered male to female the dna and emotional structure well be male at the core. The opposite polarity on the cosmic circuit.


Irrelevant as it is the chemicals that dictate emotions. Sure there are genetic markers that regulate these chemicals, but these markers can be monitored and controlled. Bipolor, borderline, depression, ect.


Those born with both sets or organs. I would say that it may be possible for this person to know what it is like to be both a male and a female if they have male and female hormones and genetic makeups.


Not really, they are usually more one of the other. Check out male pseudohermaphroditism, very cool stuff.

[Phoenix Blue]

The original post about how men cannot be witches is allowed, and apparently considered not sexist, but a little sarcasm in response is not?
Not when the sarcasm is disrespectful toward a member of this forum, no.

And neither are public responses to admin modes.


Anyway, Amythyst, if you want to be a martyr so badly I'm sure there are other places you could post that would love your flame bait.
Comments such as this are also not allowed. If you have difficulty understanding the respect rule, maybe MysticWicks isn't the community for you.