Duggars expecting 18th child.

[Caitlin.ann]

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. - It's a happy Mother's Day for an Arkansas woman — she's pregnant with her 18th child. Michelle Duggar, 41, is due on New Year's Day, and the latest addition will join seven sisters and 10 brothers. There are two sets of twins.

"We've had three in January, three in December. Those two months are a busy time for us," she said, laughing.

The Duggars' oldest child, Josh, is 20, and the youngest, Jennifer, is nine months old.


Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_re_us/18_kids

Two words: Birth Control.

Honestly I can't imagine how hard it must be to spread equally love and affection to all 18 kids. Personally I think they should invest in birth control, but thats just me.

What do you guys think?

[Caitlin.ann]

They're very religious (Christian). I've heard them quote a verse in the Bible that mentions how precious children are and how they are gifts. They've stated that they'll gladly have every baby god grants them because they view them as blessings from God.

Personally I like to take the practical view point and say that the kids are products of having unprotected sex and religous fundamentalism.

[Chaos Hawk]

Well, my first thought is "dumbasses" but who am I to judge.

[Caitlin.ann]

True..this thread is a bit judgemental. I just like hearing your alls opinions on this. :)

[Philosophia]

As long as they can care for them, provide adequate food, shelter, and clothing, without using government money, then they can have as many children as they like.

[Caitlin.ann]

As long as they can care for them, provide adequate food, shelter, and clothing, without using government money, then they can have as many children as they like.

Of course, I just don't understand how one can spread so much love and attention amongst so many kids. I think it would be hard to comprehend even if I did have my own. And 11 years is a long time to be pregnant..I couldn't imagine.

[Philosophia]

Of course, I just don't understand how one can spread so much love and attention amongst so many kids. I think it would be hard to comprehend even if I did have my own.

Neither can I. But then again I'm not overly fond of children. ;)

[Tabby]

As long as they can care for them, provide adequate food, shelter, and clothing, without using government money, then they can have as many children as they like.

I wholeheartedly agree but I wonder what kind of job or jobs they have to be able to support such a large family.

[Caitlin.ann]

I wholeheartedly agree but I wonder what kind of job or jobs they have to be able to support such a large family.

No clue but they get a lot of attention from Discovery Health and supporters. I know that plays a contributing factor. They just built a new home for themselves within the past few years.

[Toki Wartooth]

Ugh. Having that many childern cannot be healthy for anyone in that bloated family. I think she and her husband are nutters.

Just because kids are gifts doesn't mean they need to keep having children. Plus, with her age, how is that good for her or the children? For one, she's giving birth at a 40+ age, and for another, she is going to get old...and she'll still have young ones running around. I think she's being naive, or idiotic, or something.

[TheWomanMonster]

Just in case anyone wants to read more about them...
link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar_family).

I remember watching one of their specials on Discovery - I was AMAZED at how little they spent to support such a large family, and they seem very functional and happy. Of course every family has their deep dark little secrets... but they seem to provide very well for their little ones.

Michelle looks good for having 17 babies. :giggle:

[Bettie]

I figure, if she wants to turn her uterus into a clown car, that's her decision.

Although I do wonder how much individual, one-on-one attention these kid get from ther parents. I read something about them where it said that each littler kid is paired up with an older kid, and the older one is responsible for looking after that little one.

Seems kinda sad if that's the case - no time to enjoy your ownchildhood, because you're busy helping raise your siblings.

[Caitlin.ann]

I figure, if she wants to turn her uterus into a clown car, that's her decision.

Although I do wonder how much individual, one-on-one attention these kid get from ther parents. I read something about them where it said that each littler kid is paired up with an older kid, and the older one is responsible for looking after that little one.

Seems kinda sad if that's the case - no time to enjoy your ownchildhood, because you're busy helping raise your siblings.

I've heard that as well. Its one of their tips for parents or whatever and they say it quite proudly.

The concept of letting a deity decide if you get pregnant or not is foreign to me which is what they seem to do.

Nice new avatar by the way.

[Sequoia]

I guess that if they want to have children, they can have children...

But with all the kids out there needing loving homes, I have to say that I don't particularly care for their decision. Why not adopt? Does God not recognize adopted children?

[halfwaynowhere]

I can't keep a straight face while reading that article... Her husband is named Jim Bob. Seriously.


The multiple children, names all starting with the same letter, smells like a mormon family to me.

[Sequoia]

I can't keep a straight face while reading that article... Her husband is named Jim Bob. Seriously.


The multiple children, names all starting with the same letter, smells like a mormon family to me.

They're not Mormon, they're another Christian sect, one of those taking "fruitful and multiply" literally sects.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I figure, if she wants to turn her uterus into a clown car, that's her decision.

Although I do wonder how much individual, one-on-one attention these kid get from ther parents. I read something about them where it said that each littler kid is paired up with an older kid, and the older one is responsible for looking after that little one.

Seems kinda sad if that's the case - no time to enjoy your ownchildhood, because you're busy helping raise your siblings.

Yeah, the uterus thing I could see. That's kinda scary.

However, a lot of families have older children responsible for younger even if they are much smaller. Just one of the ways that it works out. I helped raise my younger sisters who are not particularly that much younger than me, being the oldest. I think that we have a better relationship now because of that connection and responsibility, and I don't feel like I missed any of my childhood.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I guess that if they want to have children, they can have children...

But with all the kids out there needing loving homes, I have to say that I don't particularly care for their decision. Why not adopt? Does God not recognize adopted children?

I think that this is what I would agree with as well. I don't necessarily agree with their choice, or believe that it's one that I would make, however if their children are happy, well-adjusted and supported, then bully for them.

[SilverClaw]

As much as I am one who would have loved to have large family I think 18 would be to much, also the thought of Post pardum depression and the effects I think that would do it for me.

But congrats for their family. :)

[WynterWynd]

:eyebrow:

All I can say is, holy shit...that family has had poopy diapers for 20 years already:foh:
I guess if she wants to keep going till her uterus falls out on the floor, thats up to her.
She probably has no clue what its like to live without hormonal mood swings.

[Against The Tide]

She probably has no clue what its like to live without hormonal mood swings.

She's not had a period for 20 years, that could make this worthwhile...

I come from a large (5 other siblings and then there are my scores of step siblings...) family and my Irish pops came from even larger family having 7 brothers and 6 sisters.

Now people will wonder why on earth do we keep pumping children out? Its more than Roman Catholic values my friends. Its more than having extra hands to work on the farm or daughters to marry off. Family is sacred to us, its an extention of ourselves, our partners and by that its an extention of our God(s), a continuation of our line and faith. More children doesn't mean less love. In such familes the threshold of love is higher and I think they probally recieve more love and individual care than single children who get locked up with the TV and computer all day.

In such familes you do share hand me downs, you do have to share bedrooms - but you don't feel left out. You feel like you belong to something great, a loving family. Oh..we argue like the best of them :) Thats entertainment!

[TheWomanMonster]

She's not had a period for 20 years, that could make this worthwhile...

I come from a large (5 other siblings and then there are my scores of step siblings...) family and my Irish pops came from even larger family having 7 brothers and 6 sisters.

Now people will wonder why on earth do we keep pumping children out? Its more than Roman Catholic values my friends. Its more than having extra hands to work on the farm or daughters to marry off. Family is sacred to us, its an extention of ourselves, our partners and by that its an extention of our God(s), a continuation of our line and faith. More children doesn't mean less love. In such familes the threshold of love is higher and I think they probally recieve more love and individual care than single children who get locked up with the TV and computer all day.

In such familes you do share hand me downs, you do have to share bedrooms - but you don't feel left out. You feel like you belong to something great, a loving family. Oh..we argue like the best of them :) Thats entertainment!

I want that family...
mine was small and unextraordinary.

[Toki Wartooth]

I think having such a big family is not taknig into account differences in personality. I'm an introvert. If I were subject to living with such a huge family, I'd go insane. I'd have to move out of that house ASAP. My family is very small--my mom, my dad, and me. I like it this way, and I would never have it any other way.

[Brigid Rowan]

My thoughts are more practical, given my background with high risk pregnancies...and my thoughts go something like this: uterine rupture happens. It is NOT a safe thing to use a urerus like a rented mule, the fact of the matter is after 5 pregnancies, your odds of hemmorhage, uterine rupture, uterine prolapse, placental problems, etc all go way up there. Its a muscle, it can only heal so many times before going kapput.

I'd be terrified to do her OB care.

[Zoritsa_Nepenthe]

My thoughts are more practical, given my background with high risk pregnancies...and my thoughts go something like this: uterine rupture happens. It is NOT a safe thing to use a urerus like a rented mule, the fact of the matter is after 5 pregnancies, your odds of hemmorhage, uterine rupture, uterine prolapse, placental problems, etc all go way up there. Its a muscle, it can only heal so many times before going kapput.

I'd be terrified to do her OB care.


From what I remember,she's had 2 c-sections,and there have been a few Dr.'s that wont take her on as patient because she wants v-bac every time now.So the risk for any of the complications you listed is even higher I would imagine.

Other then that,I don't even know what to say about that family,except that if I was any of their older children,I would be running so fast and far from that home.I couldn't imagine helping to raise that many of my siblings....would probably make me not want children of my own :scream:

[WokeUpDead]

Completely irresponsible even if they all can be provided and cared for.

[Terra Mater]

I think having such a big family is not taknig into account differences in personality. I'm an introvert. If I were subject to living with such a huge family, I'd go insane. I'd have to move out of that house ASAP. My family is very small--my mom, my dad, and me. I like it this way, and I would never have it any other way.
I come from a big family(10 brothers, 2 sisters) and am a loner by nature, didn't drive me nuts. My sibs were there for me when I needed them and let me be otherwise. In a big family there is plenty of room for differences in personality, and there are plenty of personalities.

As for the "taking care of sibs," not a big deal. Didn't turn any of our stomachs for having kids. Only the very oldest kids tended babies, and then only around our schedules. By the time my younger sister was born, I was long moved out of the house; I got lucky, I am 12 of 13, not as many sibs at home when I was growing up. The oldest of us, and oldest daughter as well, married a doctor and has 3 kids, though not all of us do.

Twice a year we get the whole group of us together. Last count there were 28 kids born to me and my 12 sibs. The cousins wish we all lived in the same town, but I can bet that no town would want that many of us in it at one time. :T We are a rowdy bunch.

We have vegans and carnivores and omnivores, we have soldiers and peaceniks, a doctor, couple of lawyers, some musicians, and a whole host of others. We don't agree on what to eat, who to sleep with, how to dress, or where to live; we may be siblings but we aren't the Osmond's, more like the Osbourne's.

[Halstrom]

You're human, you're not rabbits. So stop acting like you were!

[WynterWynd]

My thoughts are more practical, given my background with high risk pregnancies...and my thoughts go something like this: uterine rupture happens. It is NOT a safe thing to use a uterus like a rented mule, the fact of the matter is after 5 pregnancies, your odds of hemmorhage, uterine rupture, uterine prolapse, placental problems, etc all go way up there. Its a muscle, it can only heal so many times before going kapput.

I'd be terrified to do her OB care.

QFT!

[Gwyddyon]

Incredibly irresponsible. Because what the earth needs is that kind of population inflation...

[Autumn]

I'm nuetral, The Duggers are simply the most visible of the lot, they're called Quiverfull families, having just as many children as God allows so that there will be more committed conservative Christians in the world. More arrows in Gods' quiver is how they see it. They ARE trying to take over, have more of them in the world then everyone else and that makes me a little sick. If I had been financially and spousally outfitted I might have considered a bunch of pagan kids...But it wasn't to be.

I'm the same age as Michelle and the thought of having had 18 some odd pregnancies by this point in my life makes me lightheaded to say the least.

[Djiril]

Here is the Quiverfull website for anyone interested:
http://www.quiverfull.com/


We exalt Jesus Christ as Lord, and acknowledge His headship in all areas of our lives, including fertility. We exist to serve those believers who trust the Lord for family size, and to answer the questions of those seeking truth in this critical area of marriage.
Whether your quiver is large or small, you are welcome. Come browse our articles and resources. Also, be sure to check out the QuiverFull Digest, our email discussion group that was started in 1995.
Dedicated to providing encouragement and practical help to those who are striving to raise a large and growing, godly family in today's world!

[Glowy]

Incredibly irresponsible. Because what the earth needs is that kind of population inflation...
This was exactly what I was going to post. Thanks for the large footprint your family is making on the already fragile planet.

As for Mrs. Duggers- get some self respect! You are nothing more than a breeding cow!

[Aidron]

Incredibly irresponsible. Because what the earth needs is that kind of population inflation...


This was exactly what I was going to post. Thanks for the large footprint your family is making on the already fragile planet.

As for Mrs. Duggers- get some self respect! You are nothing more than a breeding cow!

Agreed. This is exactly why mandatory abortions should be implemented. If you do not believe in birth control, that's fine. Stop having sex. Your kids are not a blessing, they are a drain on resources sapping this planet of everything it has left to offer.

However, I will say that I am at least pleased to know they are not dependent on government aid. That in and of itself is my main gripe with polygamists. You can have all the spouses and blah blah blah you want, but when you start expecting the rest of the nation to pay for your chosen lifestyle? Screw you.

[TuathaSidhe]

I say more power to them. I personally wouldnt want that many kids but who am I to judge? They can obvisouly take care of them on their own so I dont see how they are hurting anyone. We can all debate on what we think is responsible or irresponsible in raising a family, in the end though the finger can be pointed at anyone by anyone saying "I dont think that is right in your family"

People think raising pagan children is irresponsible, People think that same sex couples raisng kids is irresponsible, People think that single parents raisng kids is irresponsible (yes, some people out there think people should get married "for the kids") Heck..even some people think its irresponsible to have dogs in the homes with kids.

Really, whats the point in all that judgment? I was a single mom raising my religously open minded children with dogs running around their feets......im sure someone out there would say that its "irresponsible" of me to do that.

I dont see how they are rasing their kids in the Christian faith any different than someone with a smaller family doing the same thing. Heck, growing up I was taught the same thing about the Christian God and seeking his truth and trusting him...blah blah blah blah. And I was ONE child being raised by my grandparents.

There is no guarentee that all of these kids will follow the christian faith in the end, or any faith at all for that matter. Lots and lots of people find different paths as they grow older, I did and so have others. The family may be more heavily influenced in a certain path, but for all we know, some of the now adult children could just do enough stuff "religously" to please the rest of their family so there isnt some big arguement..but honestly, what does THAT even matter to others? That is between them. imo.

They arent hurting ANYONE or doing anything to ANYONE so why not just let them be? How many people of a Pagan path say "let me be"...well, it goes both ways. You cant ask for that and then not give it. So...let them be. And also, its here body, if she wants to risk herself then that is her choice. Others do it everyday only in different ways and aside from doing it illegally, I dont see anyone saying anything to them.

[Autumn]

As for Mrs. Duggers- get some self respect! You are nothing more than a breeding cow!

WOW That is rather harsh! She probably does have a lot of self respect, she's just on a different path than you are!

I'm uncomfortable with the intolerence of some of the replies in this thread...Forced abortion is no better than a complete ban on abortion. Additionally these folks live a much more frugal life than many families with only 1-2 kids. They hand clothes down and are not consuming tons of crap. They probably don't watch much TV and use resources wisely.

I don't know about the FDLS folks but I've met a few conservative christians who'd rather choke than accept welfare. Most of them choose to have only one full time wage earner and frequently garden and such. Of course they also practice ecological breastfeeding and have more widely spaced children than the Duggars do.

[Caitlin.ann]

As for Mrs. Duggers- get some self respect! You are nothing more than a breeding cow!

I second that. :)

[Iris]

Agreed. This is exactly why mandatory abortions should be implemented. If you do not believe in birth control, that's fine. Stop having sex. Your kids are not a blessing, they are a drain on resources sapping this planet of everything it has left to offer.

However, I will say that I am at least pleased to know they are not dependent on government aid. That in and of itself is my main gripe with polygamists. You can have all the spouses and blah blah blah you want, but when you start expecting the rest of the nation to pay for your chosen lifestyle? Screw you.

Mandatory abortions? 0_o

No disrespect, Aidron, but I think that's a pretty damn disgusting concept. I'm pro-choice, but pro-choice means giving women control over their own bodies, not giving someone else that control!

Wow. I can't believe anyone would espouse...I mean what exactly? Like how would this work? You're proposing sedating a woman, forcibly carrying her to a clinic and sucking her baby out against her will?! Wow...just wow.

And what would the limit be before your mandatory abortions come into play? Are you proposing that Western nations follow China and set limits on how many kids someone can have? I don't see how that's any business of anyone but the person having the kids. So in a country where Aidron is king, it's like...what? "You can have three kids, and after that, we'll take you away and abort your babies by force"??

I'm disgusted and dissappointed that anyone on this board thinks this is a good idea.

As for the family themselves...if they're supporting their kids and everything, I don't see a problem. It sure as hell wouldn't be MY choice (I don't think I want kids at all at this stage) but different strokes for different folks. I also don't agree with the statement about the lady in question needing to "get some self respect." I imagine that raising your children in the best way you know how would be pretty good for someone's self esteem actually. To look at a person you helpled create, who didn't turn out so bad...you must be doing something right. And motherhood is one of the harder things to get right, I imagine. If this lady feels fulfilled by bearing and raising children, then surely, more power to her?

Plus I think slating the family for their religious leanings is, on a pagan board, frankly a bit like living in the proverbial glass house and lobbing bricks at your neighbour. Plenty people would say that raising a kid Pagan is irresponsible. They're entitled to raise their kids however they see fit, providing they aren't harming them. I mean, personally I don't believe in raising children with any religion at all, but that's just me. My brother is raising his daughters in his wife's Christian faith, and while I don't agree with it...they're not my kids. So I sit down and have a nice cool glass of STFU.

[Lady Shalymar]

Personally I'm of the midset that I'll have as many children as I like so long as my husband and myself can provide for them. Who is anyone else to tell me I can't have children if I'm not asking them to be involved?
Government has no business interferring in someone's house and with their children provided those children are cared for and not abused. You start letting the goverment decide who can have kids and how many and you're just asking for trouble. You think the christian-based government of the US is going to be thrilled with witches having babies?

[Caitlin.ann]

Who mentioned gov't involvement?

[Lady Shalymar]

Who mentioned gov't involvement?

Someone brought up mandatory abortions. To me that infers gov't involvement.

[Caitlin.ann]

Oh Aidron. He's the only post I've seen regarding such involvement. I don't think anyone else really cares other than they don't agree with the Duggars viewpoint.

[Lady Shalymar]

I know, was just my two cents.

Personally I don't see why anyone feels qualified to make a judgement on the Duggar's viewpoint. They aren't asking for help, or government assistance. They feel that they can serve their God by having children, who are we to say that's wrong?

Plenty of children from Christian homes don't grow up to be "quivers", I'm a personal example of that.

[Caitlin.ann]

I didn't say it was wrong, as in illegal, I just don't agree. I'm strongly under the conviction that the divine helps those who help themselves. For parents to take such risks to themselves and their children to have as many children as "the gods see fit to give them" makes me sick. And its not like they support our existence either since they are having as many kids as god gives them in order to spread more religious zealousness in the world. Just my two cents.

Is it illegal? No. Is it enough to think them monstorous? No? But it is enough for me to frown upon it and to disagree. I know others will disagree with me as well..thats quite alright. But personally I can't agree with this one.

And to follow..they're not dependent on governemnt assistance. Thats wonderful. But what about the other families just like them that do? Also the Duggars get a lot of publicity, so I'm sure that helps out immensely as well.

[Lady Shalymar]

I'll be having as many children as the Blessed Holy One gifts me with. That makes you sick? I'm just curious. What is sick about accepting a gift from the divine?

[Gwenyvier]

Personally, I would not make the same choice. And having that many children can not be healthy for her. But that said it is their choice, not mine. As long as the children are taken care of and the family is not a leech on the economy I don't care either way.

Who are we to judge? How they raise their family isn't a popular way. How most of us raise a family isn't exactly popular either, we teach them a religion that isn't one of the big 3, some of us are GLBT and society just loves that.

We of all people should know that just because something goes against what society agrees with doesn't make it wrong.

To each their own, and thats all I have to say.

[Caitlin.ann]

I'll be having as many children as the Blessed Holy One gifts me with. That makes you sick? I'm just curious. What is sick about accepting a gift from the divine?

Because once you let a supernatural force (the divine) make decisions for you regarding your uterus, your expenses, the rest of your life you no longer take responsibilities for your own actions.

Example: I won't wrap it because I'm putting my life in gods hands.

18 kids later and look where you're at.

Maybe its just me, but I would much rather control my life than let anyone or anything else do it for me.

[Glowy]

WOW That is rather harsh! She probably does have a lot of self respect, she's just on a different path than you are!

I'm uncomfortable with the intolerence of some of the replies in this thread...Forced abortion is no better than a complete ban on abortion. Additionally these folks live a much more frugal life than many families with only 1-2 kids. They hand clothes down and are not consuming tons of crap. They probably don't watch much TV and use resources wisely.

I don't know about the FDLS folks but I've met a few conservative christians who'd rather choke than accept welfare. Most of them choose to have only one full time wage earner and frequently garden and such. Of course they also practice ecological breastfeeding and have more widely spaced children than the Duggars do.

Perhaps I ought to have said bredding mare- a horse that serves no purpose than to produce offspring. Cow insinuates something else. Considering how involved she is.. That her older children need to care for the younger ones. I do not think older children are free labor.

[Lady Shalymar]

I think there's a difference between accepting a gift and giving up control of my life. I realize as a non-Pagan my thought process isn't usually anywhere in the neighborhood of other people on here so I expect we'll disagree.
Personal responsibility for my actions is a major factor in my spiritual path. That goes for having kids as well as anything else. I'm not a "god-told-me-to" fanatic, I'm a responsible woman who views having children as a wonderful gift. Odds are I'm not going to have 18 kids, that's more than my fiance and I could handle or afford. I'm not going to put my life in danger to have kids any more so than it is in a usual pregnancy. When I get too old to feel comfortable having children, or on the advice of a doctor I trust I will take the steps to protect myself from having more children.

[AllAmericanGirl]

Mrs. Dugger has said on her TV show that they do not believe in birth control, and also she doesn't like the way a house feels without a baby in it. :thumbsup:

[Aidron]

I know, was just my two cents.

Personally I don't see why anyone feels qualified to make a judgement on the Duggar's viewpoint. They aren't asking for help, or government assistance. They feel that they can serve their God by having children, who are we to say that's wrong?

Plenty of children from Christian homes don't grow up to be "quivers", I'm a personal example of that.

As I pointed out, I can appreciate that they aren't asking for government help.

However, you live on this planet with me, and are putting an extensive drain on resources - I've seen their TV show a few times and the food alone... they have a bloody warehouse in their home - which affects me and this planet. As such, you need to be stopped. Overpopulation is already a severe problem, one which they are adding to.

[Aidron]

I'll be having as many children as the Blessed Holy One gifts me with. That makes you sick? I'm just curious. What is sick about accepting a gift from the divine?

It does make you sick. You are essentially a child giving birth to children. You have forsaken responsibility in several forms for your faith. Faith is great, it's wonderful, I'm a strong advocate of people having faith in... something, and I myself am very much faithful, but not to the point that I give up all responsibility to a higher power. I'm here and with free will in tact and thus it's I have responsibilities. Giving said responsibilities up to a higher power is lazy and thoughtless, it's your life, you live it and do your own damn part.

[TuathaSidhe]

Personally I am much more concerned with how much food and resources are WASTED by people than I am on people stocking up on food and actually use it.

Not everyone on here is in the United States, and I dont know about other countries, but look at how much stuff is wasted here. Cities/Counties/etc are literly trying to find a place to put alot of this crap. Alot of stuff that could be recycled or reused or just not bought and then thrown away cause it got old or someone got tired of it.

Its not about who uses what, its about how its used and the extent its used in. Live smarter, recycle, reuse, restore.....

[RubyRose]

I was wondering when she'd fall pregnant again.

[Lady Shalymar]

It does make you sick. You are essentially a child giving birth to children. You have forsaken responsibility in several forms for your faith. Faith is great, it's wonderful, I'm a strong advocate of people having faith in... something, and I myself am very much faithful, but not to the point that I give up all responsibility to a higher power. I'm here and with free will in tact and thus it's I have responsibilities. Giving said responsibilities up to a higher power is lazy and thoughtless, it's your life, you live it and do your own damn part.

If you read all of my posts you'd have noticed that I made a point of clarifying that I am a HUGE advocate of personal responsibility. The lack thereof was one of the reasons I left the Christian church.

I am many things, but a child, lazy and thoughtless are not among them.

Believing that every child I have is a gift from God and accepting that gift from him to me as a woman who is capable of having children is very very different from handing over all control of my life to God.

Want to know what makes me sick? The idea of someone forcing me to have an abortion.

[Caitlin.ann]

If you read all of my posts you'd have noticed that I made a point of clarifying that I am a HUGE advocate of personal responsibility. The lack thereof was one of the reasons I left the Christian church.

I am many things, but a child, lazy and thoughtless are not among them.

Believing that every child I have is a gift from God and accepting that gift from him to me as a woman who is capable of having children is very very different from handing over all control of my life to God.

Want to know what makes me sick? The idea of someone forcing me to have an abortion.

There is a huge difference though between seeing a child as a gift/blessing vs. giving all your control to a divine entity, which is the distinction I was trying to make earlier. I am against the latter.

[Lady Shalymar]

There is a huge difference though between seeing a child as a gift/blessing vs. giving all your control to a divine entity, which is the distinction I was trying to make earlier. I am against the latter.

As am I. Giving control of yourself to anything drugs, alcohol, a deity, it's all abusing yourself. I heard a great take on the Wiccan Rede some years back and it's always stuck with me. "Do as you will, know what you do."

[Aidron]

If you read all of my posts you'd have noticed that I made a point of clarifying that I am a HUGE advocate of personal responsibility. The lack thereof was one of the reasons I left the Christian church.

Sorry, I don't have time to read all your posts. Also, I don't really care. Nothing personal. Besides, I never said you weren't an advocate for personal responsibility. The point is, when you start claiming all children are gifts from God and foregoing birth control, you're giving up personal responsibility to some higher power. That's whack.



I am many things, but a child, lazy and thoughtless are not among them.

Good for you. I wasn't referring to you, however.


Believing that every child I have is a gift from God and accepting that gift from him to me as a woman who is capable of having children is very very different from handing over all control of my life to God.

Being proud of your children and thankful for them is one thing. Willingly shunning birth control is another.



Want to know what makes me sick? The idea of someone forcing me to have an abortion.

Want to know what makes me absolutely, positively, want to just throw up in my freakin' boots sick? The fact that you people have the nerve to believe you are entitled to children when the world is busting apart to support all of you. Get off it, you're ruining this planet.

[Caitlin.ann]

Sorry, I don't have time to read all your posts. Also, I don't really care. Nothing personal. Besides, I never said you weren't an advocate for personal responsibility. The point is, when you start claiming all children are gifts from God and foregoing birth control, you're giving up personal responsibility to some higher power. That's whack.



Good for you. I wasn't referring to you, however.



Being proud of your children and thankful for them is one thing. Willingly shunning birth control is another.



Want to know what makes me absolutely, positively, want to just throw up in my freakin' boots sick? The fact that you people have the nerve to believe you are entitled to children when the world is busting apart to support all of you. Get off it, you're ruining this planet.

"You people" referring to who? Everyone who wants to have children?

[Gwyddyon]

I'm sick of this spineless attitude that so many people have adopted, especially in the pagan community. Who am I to judge people? I'm a person with the mental capacity to reason. That makes me eligible to judge whatever I want to. If somebody wants 18 kids, great for them. I'm within my rights to say they are making not only a poor decision, but one that negatively impacts every single person on this planet that has to share resources with them. What's more, I think I'm doing my DUTY in expressing disgust with recklessly irresponsible nutjobs. If they aren't told they're wrong, they'll keep being wrong, and the rest of us will continue to suffer because of people like this. The freedom to do something doesn't insulate you from the freedom of others to point out you're a moron.

If you have more than 2 children, you are part of the problem. Deal with it. Kids are cute, but they don't change facts, and rattling on about blessings and bundles of joy doesn't change them either. That's not being harsh - that's being rational.

[Lady Shalymar]

"You people" referring to who? Everyone who wants to have children?

That's how I read it. I guess we're all supposed to stop having children and then just let the human race die out so everything can be all perfect and clean.

[Aidron]

"You people" referring to who? Everyone who wants to have children?

Everyone who wants to amass a small army with their children.

People want children, I get it. There are plenty of children who have no homes and which are already around. But no, everyone wants their own genetic code passed on (cause you know, it's just so upstanding). They don't want it just to exist, they want it to exist in epic proportions. No, people who want children aren't crazy, cause you know it's perfectly sensible that when you're in your early 50s you decide to have a child because you just found out your brother's only son is gay and will never pass on the family name. Nope, that's not crazy at all. Gods forbid you don't stake your claim at immortality.

Real life example taken from my boyfriend.

[Aidron]

That's how I read it. I guess we're all supposed to stop having children and then just let the human race die out so everything can be all perfect and clean.

Die out? Trust me, we're in no danger of dying out. What part of 'overpopulated' do you not comprehend? If either we do not take care of this problem ourselves or a major natural disaster that wipes out a large portion of us does not occur, this planet is going to crush under our influence and evaporate. Then, all these kids you people are having can have their kids, or their grandkids, or somewhere down the line either die or hop on through the galaxy to some other planet. Call me old fashioned, but if you have kids aren't you supposed to care about their well-being and not want to bring them into a world to further a death sentence of them, their race, and the whole planet? Yeah, that's not selfish at all.

[TuathaSidhe]

I'm sick of this spineless attitude that so many people have adopted, especially in the pagan community. Who am I to judge people? I'm a person with the mental capacity to reason. That makes me eligible to judge whatever I want to. If somebody wants 18 kids, great for them. I'm within my rights to say they are making not only a poor decision, but one that negatively impacts every single person on this planet that has to share resources with them. What's more, I think I'm doing my DUTY in expressing disgust with recklessly irresponsible nutjobs. If they aren't told they're wrong, they'll keep being wrong, and the rest of us will continue to suffer because of people like this. The freedom to do something doesn't insulate you from the freedom of others to point out you're a moron.

If you have more than 2 children, you are part of the problem. Deal with it. Kids are cute, but they don't change facts, and rattling on about blessings and bundles of joy doesn't change them either. That's not being harsh - that's being rational.



I dont see it as harsh...I also dont see it as rational. Sorry but how you feel is just an opinion as everyone elses is. I have 3 kids and would love to possibly have one more and believe me, I am more frugal and nonwasteful alot more than some couples I know who dont have kids at all. If you have *facts* I would love to read them, im sure it would be an interesting read :)

Saying not to judge in certain situations has nothing to do with being spinless, please, give me a break. Not every little single thing in the world needs to be put under a microscope and judged by everyone. Its pointless, time consuming and wastes to much energy.

The problem that I have with it is that by using the *reason* is that someone can *reason* anything and dislike it. We dont all think the same and there is always going to someone out there who disagrees with something.

Its ok to be the finger pointer and say "I disagree and think they should be stopped" until someone else comes along and they point the finger at *you* and say that. Even though you think what your doing is perfectly acceptable.

Its a very very slipper slope, one that I think people should think about more carefully in certain situations....whats good for the goose????

Like I said before, i know there are smaller families out there who waste so much more than this family probably does, so im not really buying into the resource thing.

Its not just families with kids who waste resources on the planet.

:)

[TuathaSidhe]

Die out? Trust me, we're in no danger of dying out. What part of 'overpopulated' do you not comprehend? If either we do not take care of this problem ourselves or a major natural disaster that wipes out a large portion of us does not occur, this planet is going to crush under our influence and evaporate. Then, all these kids you people are having can have their kids, or their grandkids, or somewhere down the line either die or hop on through the galaxy to some other planet. Call me old fashioned, but if you have kids aren't you supposed to care about their well-being and not want to bring them into a world to further a death sentence of them, their race, and the whole planet? Yeah, that's not selfish at all.


I can see where you are comming from, to a point and if thats how you feel about it, then thats how you feel about it.

I think the difference is that not everyone feels that way. Not everyong thinks the world is going to end that way. There are lots different ways the world is going to end according to who you ask, lol. My ex honestly believes that aliens were going to take over...at least he use to I think. Dunno if he changed his mind or not. Hes the worst about changing his mind on everything..LOL.

I just think its kinda..well, crappy to just point the finger and people with kids. Esp. since I believe that in some ways it has nothing to do with that. Not 100%though. A family of 2 can waste as much as a family of 4.

Example: My mother in law. She is probably the most wasteful person in alot of ways. She does at least one small load of cloths every night and uses to much water for the loads, she runs the dishwasher half full and is very much a throw away person. We've talked to her about stuff but she aint gonna listen and I can guarentee she wastes as much, if not a little more than my family of 5.


*shrugs* I can agree to disagree :)

[Gwyddyon]

I dont see it as harsh...I also dont see it as rational. Sorry but how you feel is just an opinion as everyone elses is.

Relativist BS. Some opinions are right, others are wrong. Gravity works, and believing really fervently that your apple will fall up will never make it so. The Earth is overpopulated. We're already seeing massive starvation and shortages of every resource imaginable. If you have more than 2 kids, you and your mate contribute to an increase in population, making the problem worse because there are more people to use already scarce resources. If you are of the opinion this is not the case, you are either lying or are under the illusion that math does not work. Either way, that opinion is wrong, whether it's an opinion or not.


I have 3 kids and would love to possibly have one more and believe me, I am more frugal and nonwasteful alot more than some couples I know who dont have kids at all. If you have *facts* I would love to read them, im sure it would be an interesting read :)

You have 3 kids? Great. You're part of the problem, and you're irresponsible. Your life choices have negatively impacted every human on this planet.

It doesn't matter how frugal you are. More mouths to feed = more resources that have to go around. Or are you more frugal than the millions of people starving in Africa? Guess what - cutting coupons, eating cheap cuts of beef and turning worn out t-shirts into throw pillows isn't going to put food in a dying Malaysian's stomach. Using less gas than Bob down the street when you drive a car 20 year newer than anything a Somali villager has ever seen isn't going to earn you much praise from him since he's too busy killing his neighbor for access to clean water. Stop having kids, THEN teach them to be frugal, and maybe you'll be contributing something to the solution.

[Caitlin.ann]

Since less developed countries (LDC's) have substantially higher birth rates than more developed countries (MDC's) then wouldn't the issues be with those in the LDC's having children? Why then is LadyCanine part of the over population issue and not some farming familiy in a LDC? We need to keep up a fairly stable birthrate so that we can support our economy and our aging population, not the other way around.

[TuathaSidhe]

Relativist BS. Some opinions are right, others are wrong. Gravity works, and believing really fervently that your apple will fall up will never make it so. The Earth is overpopulated. We're already seeing massive starvation and shortages of every resource imaginable. If you have more than 2 kids, you and your mate contribute to an increase in population, making the problem worse because there are more people to use already scarce resources. If you are of the opinion this is not the case, you are either lying or are under the illusion that math does not work. Either way, that opinion is wrong, whether it's an opinion or not.

Opinion - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion)


An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact

Opinion - Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion)




You have 3 kids? Great. You're part of the problem, and you're irresponsible. Your life choices have negatively impacted every human on this planet.

It doesn't matter how frugal you are. More mouths to feed = more resources that have to go around. Or are you more frugal than the millions of people starving in Africa? Guess what - cutting coupons, eating cheap cuts of beef and turning worn out t-shirts into throw pillows isn't going to put food in a dying Malaysian's stomach. Using less gas than Bob down the street when you drive a car 20 year newer than anything a Somali villager has ever seen isn't going to earn you much praise from him since he's too busy killing his neighbor for access to clean water. Stop having kids, THEN teach them to be frugal, and maybe you'll be contributing something to the solution.


States? Studies? I told you I would gladly read them.

[Gwyddyon]

Since less developed countries (LDC's) have substantially higher birth rates than more developed countries (MDC's) then wouldn't the issues be with those in the LDC's having children? Why then is LadyCanine part of the over population issue and not some farming familiy in a LDC? We need to keep up a fairly stable birthrate so that we can support our economy and our aging population, not the other way around.

A woman in Bolivia or Burma having three kids is also part of the problem. Never said otherwise. But I'm not speaking with a woman in Bolivia or Burma, because the women we're talking about are too busy dying to use the Intarwebs. If you'd like to find a starving Burmese woman with five children and let her use your connection, I'd be more than happy to tell her to grow some sense and use a condom next time.

[Caitlin.ann]

A woman in Bolivia or Burma having three kids is also part of the problem. Never said otherwise. But I'm not speaking with a woman in Bolivia or Burma, because the women we're talking about are too busy dying to use the Intarwebs. If you'd like to find a starving Burmese woman with five children and let her use your connection, I'd be more than happy to tell her to grow some sense and use a condom next time.

Oh please.

[Amanda Mitchell]

EIGHTEEN kids... :jawdrop: that's just craziness!!

[TuathaSidhe]

Since less developed countries (LDC's) have substantially higher birth rates than more developed countries (MDC's) then wouldn't the issues be with those in the LDC's having children? Why then is LadyCanine part of the over population issue and not some farming familiy in a LDC? We need to keep up a fairly stable birthrate so that we can support our economy and our aging population, not the other way around.


Thats a good point.

Isnt it in Africa still where there are tribes where when a girl starts her menstrual she is to be wed and start having kids?

I guess that issue doesnt hit as close to home for some people..lol <shrugs>

[Terra Mater]

Die out? Trust me, we're in no danger of dying out. What part of 'overpopulated' do you not comprehend? If either we do not take care of this problem ourselves or a major natural disaster that wipes out a large portion of us does not occur, this planet is going to crush under our influence and evaporate. Then, all these kids you people are having can have their kids, or their grandkids, or somewhere down the line either die or hop on through the galaxy to some other planet. Call me old fashioned, but if you have kids aren't you supposed to care about their well-being and not want to bring them into a world to further a death sentence of them, their race, and the whole planet? Yeah, that's not selfish at all.

Save the "ruining the planet" schtick, what monumental vanity. The planet was here long before humans first dragged their knuckles up off the ground and will be here long after the cockroaches have taken over. Overcrowding puts humans in danger from humans, not from the planet.

Over the spans of their lives, my children and I have planted hundreds of trees, recycled tons of recyclables through various recycling drives, created clothing and homemade blankets for the homeless, and a host of other helping projects. Three of the kids at different stages did reports on the amount we consumed versus the amount we recycled, reused, and/or replaced, and we are ahead of the curve. Can you say the same thing?

You mentioned the kids who have no homes. How many of these homeless children do you plan to selflessly open your home to? If you are not planning on opening your home to any of them, what are your selfless reasons? We have fostered, Big Sistered, and Big Brothered a total of 45 kids so far and we aren't done yet.

Most of the time we wanted to go somewhere, we took the bus. That's right, no big gas guzzling SUV driving soccer mom here, we used the bus. I find it irresponsible to own a car that only pollutes the environment and makes us dependant on a non renewable fuel source.

While most of the one and two kid families were wasting plastic buying cases of bottled water, I bought a filtration system and one water bottle for each member of the family. While most one and two kid families buy brand new clothes for each child, we went to secondhand clothing stores and bought that which others had no use for. We bought secondhand whenever we could, not because it was cheaper, but because it was better for the environment to reuse what still had use in it.

So while you think those of us with several children should get off the planet, we, the "over-breeders" think the same thing about you. We at least are doing our part to not only offset our own consumptions, but some of yours as well. More recycling and replanting programs are done by children in school than singles on their own. Families that have more than one child participate in those programs multiple times and get the whole family involved each time.

I did not want to amass a small army with my children, nor did I care about passing on the family name. In fact, prior to the birth of the first child, I never had planned to have children. However, in the 80's, when I started having my kids, the doctors did not know that antibiotics cancelled out the effectiveness of many BC pills. Four of my six children are "pill babies". The other two were born due to implant failures.

Shame on anyone that wants me to feel guilty for those six wonderful children. Shame on anyone that thinks I should feel ashamed for being the second youngest of 13 kids. Take your sour grapes at not having that much love in your lives and go make some wine with it instead of whining about it.

As for your issues about someone having a child because their brother's only son is gay and will never pass on the family name, never happened in our family. My two gay brothers and my lesbian sister are just as loved and accepted as any of the other kids are. None of the kids carry the "family name", when each of us became adults we changed our names either through marriage or court documents because we wanted the family name to die out.

Definiton of selfish: you telling us how we should live our lives with no real understanding of how we live our lives.

[Gwyddyon]

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact

And if it is proven to be false, it is still an opinion, but it is a wrong opinion. An assessment can be wrong. A judgment can be wrong. If I judge that my door is three feet high, and it is in fact mathematically shown to be six, my judgment is wrong. Calling something an opinion does not insulate it from criticism, nor does it insulate it from being wrong. It just makes it a heartfelt, wishy-washy sort of wrong.


States? Studies? I told you I would gladly read them.

Do you believe in math?

1 person eats X amount of food. We have 100X. We have 110 people. Your friend has two children, she and her mate die, population is still 110. You have four children. You and your mate die. Population is now 112. 100X / 110 is larger than 100X / 112 because 112>110.

Heck, let's even go ahead and say that we're NOT currently overpopulating the planet. Again, 1 person eats X amount of food (let's say X is the base number of calories you need to live). We have 100X. We have 50 people. You again have 4 children and die. Population is 52. If your friends all do the same, we're gonna hit 100+ eventually. So Bad Day is delayed, but Bad Day still happens. My kids may not care in that event, but my great-great-grandchildren might wish to have a word with you about the distinct lack of silly luxuries like grain.

[TuathaSidhe]

Save the "ruining the planet" schtick, what monumental vanity. The planet was here long before humans first dragged their knuckles up off the ground and will be here long after the cockroaches have taken over. Overcrowding puts humans in danger from humans, not from the planet.

Over the spans of their lives, my children and I have planted hundreds of trees, recycled tons of recyclables through various recycling drives, created clothing and homemade blankets for the homeless, and a host of other helping projects. Three of the kids at different stages did reports on the amount we consumed versus the amount we recycled, reused, and/or replaced, and we are ahead of the curve. Can you say the same thing?

You mentioned the kids who have no homes. How many of these homeless children do you plan to selflessly open your home to? If you are not planning on opening your home to any of them, what are your selfless reasons? We have fostered, Big Sistered, and Big Brothered a total of 45 kids so far and we aren't done yet.

Most of the time we wanted to go somewhere, we took the bus. That's right, no big gas guzzling SUV driving soccer mom here, we used the bus. I find it irresponsible to own a car that only pollutes the environment and makes us dependant on a non renewable fuel source.

While most of the one and two kid families were wasting plastic buying cases of bottled water, I bought a filtration system and one water bottle for each member of the family. While most one and two kid families buy brand new clothes for each child, we went to secondhand clothing stores and bought that which others had no use for. We bought secondhand whenever we could, not because it was cheaper, but because it was better for the environment to reuse what still had use in it.

So while you think those of us with several children should get off the planet, we, the "over-breeders" think the same thing about you. We at least are doing our part to not only offset our own consumptions, but some of yours as well. More recycling and replanting programs are done by children in school than singles on their own. Families that have more than one child participate in those programs multiple times and get the whole family involved each time.

I did not want to amass a small army with my children, nor did I care about passing on the family name. In fact, prior to the birth of the first child, I never had planned to have children. However, in the 80's, when I started having my kids, the doctors did not know that antibiotics cancelled out the effectiveness of many BC pills. Four of my six children are "pill babies". The other two were born due to implant failures.

Shame on anyone that wants me to feel guilty for those six wonderful children. Shame on anyone that thinks I should feel ashamed for being the second youngest of 13 kids. Take your sour grapes at not having that much love in your lives and go make some wine with it instead of whining about it.

As for your issues about someone having a child because their brother's only son is gay and will never pass on the family name, never happened in our family. My two gay brothers and my lesbian sister are just as loved and accepted as any of the other kids are. None of the kids carry the "family name", when each of us became adults we changed our names either through marriage or court documents because we wanted the family name to die out.

Definiton of selfish: you telling us how we should live our lives with no real understanding of how we live our lives.

:thumbsup:

[Caitlin.ann]

Thats a good point.

Isnt it in Africa still where there are tribes where when a girl starts her menstrual she is to be wed and start having kids?

I guess that issue doesnt hit as close to home for some people..lol <shrugs>

Yeah tons of LDC's have more kids in order to split up the work, which is lose/lose because more people = more mouths to feed.

[Terra Mater]

Relativist BS. Some opinions are right, others are wrong. Gravity works, and believing really fervently that your apple will fall up will never make it so. The Earth is overpopulated. We're already seeing massive starvation and shortages of every resource imaginable. If you have more than 2 kids, you and your mate contribute to an increase in population, making the problem worse because there are more people to use already scarce resources. If you are of the opinion this is not the case, you are either lying or are under the illusion that math does not work. Either way, that opinion is wrong, whether it's an opinion or not.



You have 3 kids? Great. You're part of the problem, and you're irresponsible. Your life choices have negatively impacted every human on this planet.

It doesn't matter how frugal you are. More mouths to feed = more resources that have to go around. Or are you more frugal than the millions of people starving in Africa? Guess what - cutting coupons, eating cheap cuts of beef and turning worn out t-shirts into throw pillows isn't going to put food in a dying Malaysian's stomach. Using less gas than Bob down the street when you drive a car 20 year newer than anything a Somali villager has ever seen isn't going to earn you much praise from him since he's too busy killing his neighbor for access to clean water. Stop having kids, THEN teach them to be frugal, and maybe you'll be contributing something to the solution.

Nope, but planting victory gardens and sending the harvested veggies to soup kitchens and food banks does a lot to put food in the belly of a starving American and I care more about taking care of the homeless at home than the homeless half a world away. Tell ya what though, since you care so much about the starving Malaysians, you should plant a victory garden or two and send the food you grow to Malaysia.

Let me guess? Not enough room? We grew ours in "window boxes" around the apartment. Not enough time, well I guess we have ya there, six kids and two adults can get a lot more done than one person alone.

As for the car, well Somalian villagers haven't seen anything like the public transportation system we use here in AZ. Maybe you should send them some pictures and some of your disposable income so they can use the same kinds of buses we did to get around. That's right, we use the bus, though my oldest son did save up to buy a diesel car and converted it to veggie oil. He's got a deal worked out with the fast food restaurant he works at taking their used fryer oil which he then strains and dewaters for use in his car. He also converted the cars of his 3 sisters that have them, and they worked out similar deals for them to fuel theirs.

Personally, I think you should take your message to the starving Somalians and Malaysians because they are the ones truly being irresponsible, having children that they cannot care for, since they cannot care for themselves. Save your rage for them, for us it is grossly misplaced, as are many of your assumptions.

[TuathaSidhe]

And if it is proven to be false, it is still an opinion, but it is a wrong opinion. An assessment can be wrong. A judgment can be wrong. If I judge that my door is three feet high, and it is in fact mathematically shown to be six, my judgment is wrong. Calling something an opinion does not insulate it from criticism, nor does it insulate it from being wrong. It just makes it a heartfelt, wishy-washy sort of wrong.



Do you believe in math?

1 person eats X amount of food. We have 100X. We have 110 people. Your friend has two children, she and her mate die, population is still 110. You have four children. You and your mate die. Population is now 112. 100X / 110 is larger than 100X / 112 because 112>110.

Heck, let's even go ahead and say that we're NOT currently overpopulating the planet. Again, 1 person eats X amount of food (let's say X is the base number of calories you need to live). We have 100X. We have 50 people. You again have 4 children and die. Population is 52. If your friends all do the same, we're gonna hit 100+ eventually. So Bad Day is delayed, but Bad Day still happens. My kids may not care in that event, but my great-great-grandchildren might wish to have a word with you about the distinct lack of silly luxuries like grain.



The only think you've proven to me is that you dont like someone going agasint what you believe and think is right in your own world....

<sigh>

I asked for actual states and studies, There is more resources than just food......

Geez, what do you expect us to do, not eat and starve to death? I try my best not to waste any food and we eat left overs. Shoot, if the kids cant eat all the food on their plate it goes to me or DH, if we cant eat it it goes to the dog barring its not harmful to him, the rest goes to lunch or dinner the next day.

If you want to bitch about food, bitch about the people who get a full plate and eat two bites and just throw out the rest of the food to trash.

I tried to agree to disagree but ah well. Your entilted to your opinions all you want to be as I am, even if you dont like it. lol

[Gwyddyon]

Nope, but planting victory gardens and sending the harvested veggies to soup kitchens and food banks does a lot to put food in the belly of a starving American and I care more about taking care of the homeless at home than the homeless half a world away. Tell ya what though, since you care so much about the starving Malaysians, you should plant a victory garden or two and send the food you grow to Malaysia.

This is a completely separate topic, but I've never understood the "Americans first" position on topics like these. Seems nonsensical at best, and at worst...well...


Let me guess? Not enough room? We grew ours in "window boxes" around the apartment. Not enough time, well I guess we have ya there, six kids and two adults can get a lot more done than one person alone.

Yep, not enough room. I'm frantically trying to get as much food for myself growing in my sunroom as I can, so that I can continue to send the money I save to feed people in other countries. I think you said something about assumptions?


As for the car, well Somalian villagers haven't seen anything like the public transportation system we use here in AZ. Maybe you should send them some pictures and some of your disposable income so they can use the same kinds of buses we did to get around. That's right, we use the bus, though my oldest son did save up to buy a diesel car and converted it to veggie oil.

Wow, you ride the bus just like me and most of the people living around me. Would you like a medal?


He's got a deal worked out with the fast food restaurant he works at taking their used fryer oil which he then strains and dewaters for use in his car. He also converted the cars of his 3 sisters that have them, and they worked out similar deals for them to fuel theirs.

Kudos to him, that's very well done. Would still be better if he had fewer than 3 sisters.


Personally, I think you should take your message to the starving Somalians and Malaysians because they are the ones truly being irresponsible, having children that they cannot care for, since they cannot care for themselves. Save your rage for them, for us it is grossly misplaced, as are many of your assumptions.

Pfft. They are being irresponsible. You are being irresponsible. I can disagree with more than one person at a time - I'm a great multitasker like that.


The only think you've proven to me is that you dont like someone going agasint what you believe and think is right in your own world....

<sigh>

I asked for actual states and studies, There is more resources than just food......

So you disagree with math? Or you think food is an unlimited resource?


Geez, what do you expect us to do, not eat and starve to death? I try my best not to waste any food and we eat left overs. Shoot, if the kids cant eat all the food on their plate it goes to me or DH, if we cant eat it it goes to the dog barring its not harmful to him, the rest goes to lunch or dinner the next day.

I thought I was fairly clear, actually. I don't want you to not eat. I want you to stop having kids.


If you want to bitch about food, bitch about the people who get a full plate and eat two bites and just throw out the rest of the food to trash.

I tried to agree to disagree but ah well. Your entilted to your opinions all you want to be as I am, even if you dont like it. lol

Again, I have this magical ability to disagree with more than one person. Just because somebody else does something naughty, that doesn't excuse you.

[Caitlin.ann]

I want you to stop having kids.

.

That would be very inadvisable for this nation and other MDCs. Go talk to the LDCs popping out all the extra kids. We actually need people to have kids here so that we can support our aging population. If people want to have their own kids fine, having more than two is fine, although I find 18 to be a bit extreme.

[Iris]

Wow. And I thought this community was largely pretty tolerant.

I don't want kids myself, but I'm not ragging on the people who do. Surely breeding is a basic human right?

And it's funny how the people who are 'part of the problem' and 'a drain on resources' are never YOU. It's either the beggars, the immigrants, or the people with more than 2 kids

(heaven forbid people have families. How very crass of them.)[/sarcasm.]

I can't believe the sour grapes and vitriol I am seeing.

[Djiril]

Wow. And I thought this community was largely pretty tolerant.

I don't want kids myself, but I'm not ragging on the people who do. Surely breeding is a basic human right?

And it's funny how the people who are 'part of the problem' and 'a drain on resources' are never YOU. It's either the beggars, the immigrants, or the people with more than 2 kids

(heaven forbid people have families. How very crass of them.)[/sarcasm.]

I can't believe the sour grapes and vitriol I am seeing.
I agree, to some extent anyway. I mean, I think not having more than two kids is a good idea for the environment, but that is far from the only issue, and I am becoming more and more skeptical about all this focus on the actions of individuals when it comes to environmentalism in general. It always seems to come down to condemning the people with the least power and influence.

Now the Quiverfull movement does kind of freak me out, because they are encouraging lots of people to have as many kids as possible. Some of whom otherwise would probably prefer to only have a few. I've even seen a website where in the FAQ section it answered the question of the impact on a woman's body by saying that her body belongs to God, not to her.

[Terra Mater]

This is a completely separate topic, but I've never understood the "Americans first" position on topics like these. Seems nonsensical at best, and at worst...well...

Its not an America first mentality. Its just common sense, before you go offering to clean up the neighbor's yard, you first see to your own. Same goes for helping other nations, first you see to your own. Then you progress to your neighbor's, and together the two of you go help out the lady down the way whose yard is overgrown since her husband died.


Yep, not enough room. I'm frantically trying to get as much food for myself growing in my sunroom as I can, so that I can continue to send the money I save to feed people in other countries. I think you said something about assumptions?

Wow, you only use the sunroom, how much space you are wasting. There are plenty of food plants you could be growing in the other rooms of the house, even if they get little to no direct sunlight. We even had windowboxes of mushrooms in the bathroom windows.

Also, you seem to think your attitude toward our larger family is justified, in spite of the fact that we are not only able to provide more for ourselves, but more for those around us, because of our shared efforts and larger numbers. Its not. The bit of money you save to send overseas does nowhere near as much towards feeding the hungry as the combined efforts of a family of 8 donating their grown food to food banks.

You like math, here's some simple math for you. 100% of our efforts goes to feed the hungry here because we take the actual food to the actual people needing it. We take it to them in storage containers and bags that they will use. We also donate growing kits for the families that want them, providing them with the same opportunities for growing food that we have. We waste nothing, not even energy. We even use reclaimed water for growing the food rather than watering them from the drinking taps.

You waste money by sending it to a third party who has overhead that must be paid in addition to the assistance they provide. If you write a check, you are wasting the paper. If you mail it, you are wasting the postage costs. Direct intervention is always more cost effective than outside intervention and always will be.


Wow, you ride the bus just like me and most of the people living around me. Would you like a medal?

The only medal I want is the one I get every year from my kids, it reads "We Love Our Mom". Its not a new medal each year, just each year the kids add a little something extra to it, so you could say its more of a trophy piece than an actual medal thanks to six kids adding to it year after year. It started out as a clay plaque done by the shaky hands of my oldest daughter.


Kudos to him, that's very well done. Would still be better if he had fewer than 3 sisters.

Actually, he probably wouldn't have cared as much had he not had five siblings, four sisters (only 3 driving at this stage) and a younger brother. Only children tend to be more self-centered, less competition leads to less interest in making the extra efforts. Having shown him your reply, he thinks that you would have been better off with a few more siblings yourself. I happen to agree with him.

Mostly what I am hearing from you though is the same sour grapes I am hearing form that other fellow, and I have the same suggestion for you. Take those sour grapes and make them into wine, or jelly if you prefer. If you need a recipe, I can send one of eight different ones (each of us has our own variation of sour grape jelly).

[Gwyddyon]

Its not an America first mentality. Its just common sense, before you go offering to clean up the neighbor's yard, you first see to your own. Same goes for helping other nations, first you see to your own. Then you progress to your neighbor's, and together the two of you go help out the lady down the way whose yard is overgrown since her husband died.

Why? To use your analogy, let's say my lawn is overgrown and your lawn is overgrown. I have a weekend off. I do your lawn on Saturday. I still have time on Sunday for my lawn. Or vice versa. I'm not saying we need to help other countries first. I'm saying we should just help, and nationality be ******.


Wow, you only use the sunroom, how much space you are wasting. There are plenty of food plants you could be growing in the other rooms of the house, even if they get little to no direct sunlight. We even had windowboxes of mushrooms in the bathroom windows.

Given that I've only had the place for a couple months, and that it took time to get the 80-year old windows correctly insulated against a Minnesota winter, I have no problems with my progress.


Also, you seem to think your attitude toward our larger family is justified, in spite of the fact that we are not only able to provide more for ourselves, but more for those around us, because of our shared efforts and larger numbers. Its not. The bit of money you save to send overseas does nowhere near as much towards feeding the hungry as the combined efforts of a family of 8 donating their grown food to food banks.

Yes, you provide more. You also consume more. Not just food, but energy, water, and unless you're really good you're probably still consuming things like plastic even if infrequently. You're doing a great thing donating the food. I'm just not convinced it makes up for the drain.


You like math, here's some simple math for you. 100% of our efforts goes to feed the hungry here because we take the actual food to the actual people needing it. We take it to them in storage containers and bags that they will use. We also donate growing kits for the families that want them, providing them with the same opportunities for growing food that we have. We waste nothing, not even energy. We even use reclaimed water for growing the food rather than watering them from the drinking taps.

Well done. When you look beyond your neighborhood, though, sending food doesn't work so well (tends to spoil). Money rarely goes fuzzy before it reaches its destination.


You waste money by sending it to a third party who has overhead that must be paid in addition to the assistance they provide. If you write a check, you are wasting the paper. If you mail it, you are wasting the postage costs. Direct intervention is always more cost effective than outside intervention and always will be.

See above.


Actually, he probably wouldn't have cared as much had he not had five siblings, four sisters (only 3 driving at this stage) and a younger brother. Only children tend to be more self-centered, less competition leads to less interest in making the extra efforts. Having shown him your reply, he thinks that you would have been better off with a few more siblings yourself. I happen to agree with him.

I've got a brother. That's enough. I've seen only children do extraordinary things and families of 9 leech off of welfare. And the reverse, as well. But the larger family is always going to use more resources than an equally committed but smaller family.


Mostly what I am hearing from you though is the same sour grapes I am hearing form that other fellow, and I have the same suggestion for you. Take those sour grapes and make them into wine, or jelly if you prefer. If you need a recipe, I can send one of eight different ones (each of us has our own variation of sour grape jelly).

I prefer pyment.

[Kailen]

Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_re_us/18_kids

Two words: D!ck Amputation.


:rotfl:

[Caitlin.ann]

:rotfl:

ROFL! I was sitting here thinking "Dick amputation" I didn't write that did I?'

Lol nice edit though. :)

[Kailen]

That would be very inadvisable for this nation and other MDCs. Go talk to the LDCs popping out all the extra kids. We actually need people to have kids here so that we can support our aging population. If people want to have their own kids fine, having more than two is fine, although I find 18 to be a bit extreme.

I'm going to disagree with you and say something that will probably earn mass disapproval. You can all agree or disagree, it really doesn't bother me.

I think people need to die earlier. I think I read somewhere once that over 50% of the western worlds population are over 50. Could be wrong though...my memory ain't so great anymore.

[Caitlin.ann]

I'm going to disagree with you and say something that will probably earn mass disapproval. You can all agree or disagree, it really doesn't bother me.

I think people need to die earlier. I think I read somewhere once that over 50% of the western worlds population are over 50. Could be wrong though...my memory ain't so great anymore.

That has mainly to do with Europe who is approximately ten years ahead of the US when it comes to an aging population. Or in other words where they are at now with their aging population problems is where we will be within a decade. What you're noticing is the baby boom. We have a huge elderly population and not enough youth to support it..thats why we need to provide incentives to have more youth over here (or more reproduction). Europe is already doing this although it differs from country to country. Italy and their "baby bounty" comes to mind.

[Esmella]

I, for one, couldnt care less what they do...
Although that many kids is a little much...

[Meadhbh]

I agree that its a personal choice. But now I almost wonder if this has turned into an attention thing. Raising all those kids can't be cheap and I'm sure by getting all that attention they can get a lot of stuff sent to them by various places.

[bellamandu]

nowadays thats considered pretty crazy, but hey, i bet the sex is good! :giggle:

strange to think that before methods of reliable birth control, this was pretty much the norm.

[Caitlin.ann]

nowadays thats considered pretty crazy, but hey, i bet the sex is good! :giggle:

strange to think that before methods of reliable birth control, this was pretty much the norm.

I bet its horrible. She's probably as loose as a goose by now.

[bellamandu]

I bet its horrible. She's probably as loose as a goose by now.

:hehehe:

[SphinYote]

I bet its horrible. She's probably as loose as a goose by now.

And what would you know about geese in this context?:lol:

[bellamandu]

And what would you know about geese in this context?:lol:


oh boy. keep it pg guys. :lol::lol::lol:

[Caitlin.ann]

And what would you know about geese in this context?:lol:

Lol do you REALLY want to know? Lets just say I've been around the pond a time or two. :heybaby:


oh boy. keep it pg guys. :lol::lol::lol:

Lol okay okay. But really, I can't imagine after 18 wee ones she'd be tight anymore. I bet everything is hanging pretty low by now.

[WynterWynd]

I bet its horrible. She's probably as loose as a goose by now.

:lol: I was thinking the same thing

and she's probably has so many stitches down there....it looks like frankencoochie:giggle:

and I still have to say, having 18 children is shocking to me. I'm glad they aren't on the 'government tit'...thats one thing in their favor.

[Autumn]

It wasn't the norm in the pre-birth control era, most women breastfed for at least a year, perhaps more. That spaced out their kids, they also had a bad luck of having young babies die of sepsis or of doing so themselves from sepsis or bleeding or some such. you might have birthed 17 or 18 but only half survived.

Remember pre birth control also means pre good obstetric care. We've made some amazing advances there in the last 50 years or so, additionally antibiotics have saved scores of mothers and babies.

[Amethyst Rose]

I've really enjoyed reading this conversation. Thanks, Terra and Gwyddyon for the entertainment. :)

For what it's worth, I will only be having the two kids because it is my husband's belief that people should only replace themselves. He believes strongly in population control, to the point of mandatory sterilization. But that's him, not me. I'm on the fence about it myself. I don't really mind how many kids people have, but I tend to look at those with more than 4 as being a little....insane. Heh, it's only because if it was me I really would have to question my own sanity, simply because I only have so much patience to go around and my 4 year old uses the majority of that every day.

Anyway....the Duggers. At this point they've just become a freakshow. I've heard the phrase, 'it's a vagina not a clown car' and in this case, I'm tending to agree with it.

[SphinYote]

I've really enjoyed reading this conversation. Thanks, Terra and Gwyddyon for the entertainment. :)

For what it's worth, I will only be having the two kids because it is my husband's belief that people should only replace themselves. He believes strongly in population control, to the point of mandatory sterilization. But that's him, not me. I'm on the fence about it myself. I don't really mind how many kids people have, but I tend to look at those with more than 4 as being a little....insane. Heh, it's only because if it was me I really would have to question my own sanity, simply because I only have so much patience to go around and my 4 year old uses the majority of that every day.

Anyway....the Duggers. At this point they've just become a freakshow. I've heard the phrase, 'it's a vagina not a clown car' and in this case, I'm tending to agree with it.

In agreement with your post in general. I agree with your husband.

But my question is this, now that you have two...has he followed through with the bolded section? ;)

[Gwyddyon]

Amethyst - glad to be of service.:smile:

[Phoenix Blue]

You have 3 kids? Great. You're part of the problem, and you're irresponsible. Your life choices have negatively impacted every human on this planet.
ADMIN MODE

Comments such as this, directed toward other members of the MW community, are disrespectful and will not be tolerated. Keep the conversation civil.

[Amethyst Rose]

But my question is this, now that you have two...has he followed through with the bolded section? ;)

Heh, not yet but he intends to. He told me that you never know what might happen in life, and that 35 would be the oldest he would want kids, so 5 years from now it will be done. :)

[Iris]

I do wonder how she copes, though. Well, how they both cope. How they both don't strangle their kids in other words :lol: maybe some people have unlimited patience, but I am not one of those people! 18 kids would be enough to test anyone's patience methinks.

ETA: and I thought Shirely Phelps was crazy with 11 kids!

[Glowy]

This is what I would love!! A documentary team filiming the younger children growing up. No birth control, no parents because let us face it- the woman will be so full of osteosperois ( that many births are not good for a woman's bones) she and her husband will have given up. The older children will have moved on. I for one would love to know what becomes of these kids.

[WokeUpDead]

That would be very inadvisable for this nation and other MDCs. Go talk to the LDCs popping out all the extra kids. We actually need people to have kids here so that we can support our aging population. If people want to have their own kids fine, having more than two is fine, although I find 18 to be a bit extreme.Sure. Then later on the youngsters that supported that aging population will need to be supported by even more kids. It just goes on and on. At some point you run out of room to grow and then what do you do?

[Caitlin.ann]

Sure. Then later on the youngsters that supported that aging population will need to be supported by even more kids. It just goes on and on. At some point you run out of room to grow and then what do you do?

I wouldn't say more. More doesn't have to be in the equation. It can be "slightly less" or "about even", but not necessarily "more".

[WokeUpDead]

That all depends on the life expectancy. If it keeps outpacing the retirement age more is the only way to go. The farther along you get the more expensive the medical bills become and someone has to cover it.

[Caitlin.ann]

That all depends on the life expectancy. If it keeps outpacing the retirement age more is the only way to go. The farther along you get the more expensive the medical bills become and someone has to cover it.

People will live longer to work longer to support the old folks longer, etc. Old people will be able to support themselves longer before being put on retirement anyways. Besides, work will get easier. We've moved from industrialization to computer chairs.

[WokeUpDead]

But as the technology gets more and more sophisticated at an ever faster rate will the aging workers be able to keep up with it? Most people under 30 or 40 have no problem at all working most of it for now but I don't know if they'll be able to adapt to whatever else will be coming. My grandpa was an electrical engineer for 40 or 50 years and he barely knows how to work a DVD player. If not keeping up with the technology is just a one time thing because that generation spent so much of their lives without much of it then maybe working longer will be an option. If it's just a function of age then something will have to be done to make it a more graceful process so we can keep working.

[Caitlin.ann]

Well we could gas 'em...

[WokeUpDead]

Not really. Gas is expensive. :p
And then you have to find a place for the bodies.

[Caitlin.ann]

Rofl. Umm well we could bury them alive or use that nifty new chemical distentigrater thingy. Or we could lock them up in a massive hole and let them starve to death. Then use the bodies as fertilizer..that would help the environment somehow me thinks. Lol.

[WokeUpDead]

Or zombify them for a cheap unskilled labor source.

[Caitlin.ann]

Or zombify them for a cheap unskilled labor source.

:hehehehe:

For immigrants and teens.

[Terra Mater]

I've really enjoyed reading this conversation. Thanks, Terra and Gwyddyon for the entertainment. :)
Anytime AR, anytime!

[Teresa]

To each his own. If they are not depending on the government for assistance then I do not care as long as they can take care of and provide for their children.

As for myself I will be having a child at my age because that is my husband's and my desire. He has 2 small children already so this will make 3. IMO, it is a personal decision a couple has to make, as long as they do not depend on others the care for or clothe or feed their offspring, I see not problem.

[Thyrsos]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/249270409_664e6841fa.jpg

[RubyRose]

To each his own. If they are not depending on the government for assistance then I do not care as long as they can take care of and provide for their children.

As for myself I will be having a child at my age because that is my husband's and my desire. He has 2 small children already so this will make 3. IMO, it is a personal decision a couple has to make, as long as they do not depend on others the care for or clothe or feed their offspring, I see not problem.

I agree.

Hubby and I are stopping at 3 because it's all we can afford. Granted family do on occasion buy clothes and things for the kids.