Theurgy - ie. magic that isn't mundane

[RainInanna]

Ok, we have our thread on mundane/folk magic/low magic/thaumaturgy, what magic do you do that isn't tied into daily life and mundane needs, but related to perfecting the self/achieving gnosis?

[RainInanna]

I've read that this type of magic was called "high" in reference to the idea that only the upper class had time for it - those "high in their castles", ie. the barons etc. The suggestion was that others, in the heaths etc., needed to focus on mundane magic to ensure food was found and shelter was kept in order, and didn't have time for the "high" magic related to self-development and achieving gnosis.

(Again I'm assuming here everyone realizes I don't mean "higher" is better than "lower" or any of that, and that we've already had such arguments outside of Advanced Paganism.)

[childofbast]

I generally consider high magic to be ritual to honor the Gods.

~Melanie

[Theres]

I generally consider high magic to be ritual to honor the Gods.

~Melanie
i more or less agree with this statement.

i would say that most, if not all of my magical practice these days is focussed through my goddess. i practice almost no 'low' magic anymore.
once i realized that any magical ability i may have is from Her i saw very little point in trying to circumvent that reality.

[RainInanna]

Ok. Care to describe your practices then, as to when, how often, and how?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I've been dancing about this one since I first saw and read it.

I tend to agree that most high level magics I do now days are angled towards my relationship with the gods and more specifically my goddess. Yet in that it is also not so much magic as it is the means I ask and communicate with her.

To a great extent it is the discoveries and challenges that are placed before me in my search and discovery of her. It is the internal observations and questions I have raised in me and the pursuit of those answers. It is things that challenege me to be more than a closed minded me and look to the greater spiritual and what things I can do or should do.

In many ways it is a matter of discovering who she is vice just who history has painted her as. It is also a discovery of who is not her but an influence in my life and what the total picture is.

For instance I feel a great pull towards Hecate and she looms large upon my spiritual horizion but that does not diminsh the facets of Artemis that hold me or the duality that Hecate and Artemis appear to hold as historically traits from one where ascribed to the other.

Those are the higher magics I see and use now. In my learning to know that do I learn the truth of myself. In honoring them do I learn to honor myself and understand my relationship between the world of the living, the world of the spritual and the world of the mundane.

[Xentor]

I'd say my personal growth and change over the past 2 decades are a good example of high magic. Twice I set out to change, and twice I succeeded. Today, I'm a fairly happy man, married to a wonderful, loving, caring woman. That wouldn't have been the case without those changes.

[childofbast]

I approach my Gods and high magic through rituals on the holidays and through my daily devotionals. I make offerings and give thanks. I sometimes ask for things and make pacts with the Gods.

~Melanie

[Tanya]

my low magic is completely focused on self awareness and approaching my partron.. Maybe because my patron is very earthy.. I'm really questiong for a wholistic approach to my entire life's activities

[RainInanna]

Personally almost any magic I do is related to personal development and achieving gnosis. I find this works better for me - the more I work on these things, the less I have the need to do low magic. Things seem to fall into place in my life. I trust that the things I need settle into place and they do.

I don't get into the very ceremonial methods of high magic, although I find them interesting. Spiritual cleansing and correspondences are certainly applicable anywhere, not just when used as carefully and fully as in CM. I find the techniques and surrounding mythology fascinating, although it doesn't "feel" right for me (ie. JCI, or "Wallis Budge Ancient Egyptian"). For me however, the methods are still simple - meditation, contemplation, energy work, chakra balancing, etc.

(edited since my son came by and hit post mid thought earlier)

[AugustoSilvanoCato]

Hello,

High magick Arts are very different from low magick, What we practice as witches, rituals and spell craft is a form of low magick. Low magick has to do with higher beings like our Goddess but with high magick the Magus deals not only with higher beings but with legions of entities and very Demanding ones if you do not know what you are doing. So As witches we practice low magick because we deal with the higher divine. High magick has nothing to do with a higher divinity. I can tell you this because I'm a Ceremonial Magus. I work on that for my Magick skills and I worship my Goddess for my religion. Why? because to practice high magick or Ceremonial magick you do not need a Religion. High magick or Ceremonial magick is not a path but an Art.
Bless be

[parallax]

Hello,

High magick has nothing to do with a higher divinity.


Maybe terms are an issue here because the OP did ask about theurgy which is most definitely rituals and/or magic that has to do with divinity and gods. The other option being thaumaturgy, I guess (I risk using D&D terms, I know).

Anyway, to answer the OP, I do very little in the way of spells or basic magic myself. I do devotions and give sacrifice to the gods and it is through those actions that I feel I am coming closer to gnosis. In the rare event that I do more mundane magic it is usually something to strengthen my self or my discipline in order to push my practice with the gods further - like candle magic to increase my time spent meditating or something.
I guess I've generally found that I can accomplish my more mundane tasks by more mundane actions. I prefer to spend my time and energy working with the gods or other spirits important to me.

[Zephyrstorm]

A lot of my practice is about communing with the Divine. I'm not so interested in building egregores or in doing spellwork for mundane purposes as I am into getting to know and connect with the Gods.

I also try to improve myself in the process.

[GEBS]

Personally almost any magic I do is related to personal development and achieving gnosis. I find this works better for me - the more I work on these things, the less I have the need to do low magic. Things seem to fall into place in my life. I trust that the things I need settle into place and they do.


This is very true for me. The more I work on my higher self the less I need to worry about things in my everyday life. Things fall into place naturally. I trust that things will go according to my will as long as I am properly aligned and aware.

Part of being aware is continuous study. For me, it's more necessary than formal rituals. If I stop questioning and learning I am not going to progress. Progression is my goal. Spiritual evolution.

[brymble]

My understanding of high magick is that it works higher on the tree of life than so-called lower magicks. I'm neither a ceremonialist nor a kabbalist, so don't quote me on that one.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, speaking as a sculptor/folk magician who works with "higher" consciousness and development: has anyone considered the so-called "lower magicks" (Hoodoo and other folk magics) as doorways or paths to so-called "higher" magicks? Must a working intended to meet needs necessarily ignore higher consciousness? Must a "higher" working necessarily consider mundane needs beneath its concern? Might not the meeting of needs be a sort of bridge along which consciousness descends into matter, and again transcends the material form?

Personally I feel this sort of divided thinking is symptomatic of the classic upper/lower chakra split that is a common problem in the West. As a child of the God and Goddess, I don't want to come from a broken home. The material and subtle are not in conflict, indeed, it's a joyful dance between the worlds, not a guilty struggle.

[Zephyrstorm]

Interesting, Brymble. I'm not a big fan of considering it a case of high vs. low or theurgy vs. thaumaturgy - But that said, in my life, when I work on improving my relationship with the Gods and on improving myself, I also find that a lot of the "mundane" aspects of my day-to-day just kind of fall into place. I don't know if that's a matter of good fortune or the way it should be.

I'm not saying that I don't do "low" magic - I do. I just don't find the need to do it very often, and don't really emphasize it in my practice. This doesn't make my way of doing any better or worse than anyone elses, though - just because that's how its worked for me doesn't mean that it has application for others.

And I am of the opinion that there's very little in life that is divorced from the divine. Perhaps, almost every aspect of experience and life could be looked upon as an avenue for working with the divine. I don't always manage to keep that in mind though.

[Tobias]

While high magick (at least in the context of this thread) does have it's benifits of introducing us to the gods and undertaking a lot of inner transformation; I'm not sure if it's neccessarily the "higher" step in the spiritual ladder. I mean, it sure would be nice if it is, because it definitely is the path I've taken. I found out very early on that trust and faith were much more powerful methods to obtain my mundane needs than any sort of willing them into being on my part.

But really though, why is it that we are expected to depend upon "faith" or our gods to take care of us? Is that a sign of being advanced; or the other way around? I have always wanted to "do magick"; which in my opinion means to take some of the action into my own hands and see results in the physical plane. Spiritual stuff is great, mind you; and if I couldn't connect with my Deity or know the next step on my spiritually transformative journey it would really suck. But when do I get to do the cool stuff like blow something up ( ;) ) or get something I want without having to ask for it first?

It seems that on the "high" magick road trust is at an all time low. "Low" magicians get to do whatever they want; while I'm stuck on a very specific path that doesn't leave much room for personal freedom. I don't know if that's because They care for us more than the others, or because They know what we are like and don't trust us with any real power...

I'm probably just in a mood and complaining because the grass looks greener on the other side (again). :)

Thanks so much for this thread, btw. :thumbsup:

[RainInanna]

Some very interesting thoughts here for me to ponder, thank you for responding.

As to faith of the gods taking care of us, that caused me to stop and think. I guess my faith is not in the gods, but in knowing I am satisfied. I celebrate it, I give thanks for it, and I know it as a point of fact. I don't have faith that gods will keep me, I have faith in myself - I focus more on the higher self, the Divine manifested within, and spend more time working on confidence in my own abilities. I have learned not to assume the gods will make it happen, but that it comes, even when it means I must make it come. A lot of my work is based on self reliance.

It all seems rather arrogant when I type it out here though ;)

[Zephyrstorm]

Some very interesting thoughts here for me to ponder, thank you for responding.

As to faith of the gods taking care of us, that caused me to stop and think. I guess my faith is not in the gods, but in knowing I am satisfied. I celebrate it, I give thanks for it, and I know it as a point of fact. I don't have faith that gods will keep me, I have faith in myself - I focus more on the higher self, the Divine manifested within, and spend more time working on confidence in my own abilities. I have learned not to assume the gods will make it happen, but that it comes, even when it means I must make it come. A lot of my work is based on self reliance.

It all seems rather arrogant when I type it out here though ;)

Yeah - the same thing made me pause.

Its not that I have faith that the Gods will sort it out for me - or having faith that they have my best interest in mind (in fact, what they want often feels like its the opposite of what I want.) Its just that the important stuff - the really important stuff - seems to fall into place when I'm busy being thankful and taking care of what is important to me.
I don't know how to say it where it doesn't come off as arrogant.

At this point in my life, I'm very fortunate, and despite having some "bad" things happen to me this year, I'm still very lucky.

[RainInanna]

You know what I was thinking yesterday? What would be so bad about being a bit arrogant? I mean, I realize we don't want to assume if we step off a cliff we'll fly, and there is a level where safety comes into play. But I do think I could use more arrogance (self reliance, self confidence, self assurance) in my life. I do realize suddenly that I spend too much time worrying about this big ol' scary "being too arrogant" thing. Why are we so afraid of being arrogant, and does that fear serve us, or slow us down from getting what we want?

[RainInanna]

Sorry, this is awkward, but a good example - Tobias, we're talking about doing magic to get money in the other thread, and I think you made a really good point as to why personal development can be more successful then other forms of magic. In my case, I realized sometimes the magic shouldn't be focused on getting "things", but that when my magic changed my perspective, I gained more value from the "things" I had. In other words, I understood my desires better and refocused - not aiming to make money, even though I recognize having enough is necessary. Instead my viewpoint changed; I learned what was really important to me (security, comfort) and my needs were met, even if I wasn't any richer.

I think we'd often do a lot better to know ourselves and meet our real goals then achieve prosperity, health, love, etc. Often I found what I thought I wanted wasn't what I needed, and insisting on finding happiness that one way only lead to conflict. If I focused on what I needed, what I wanted fell into line rather naturally.

[RainInanna]

In other words, I kept thinking if I just got X I would be happy.

This way instead of striving for X to make me happy, I am happy. I focus on happiness and self-development, on reaching the Sacred, and any "X" that can make that happen comes along naturally.

[Tobias]

It comes down to the proverb, that "Wisdom is mightier than strength." Changing our desires often times is the quickest way to happiness.

Imagine falling off of a dock into a river. Our first instinct is to try to swim back to the dock, trying to summon the power and strength to go against the current. Wisdom though would tell us to not try to fight the current, but to cut across it, swim to the shore, and walk back to the dock (if being back on the dock is really what you want.)

With magick, we can try to move heaven and hell to get the things we think we want. Apply a little bit of wisdom, and you might just find that what you think you want is just an illusion of what your true desires really are.

Getting to "Know Thyself" is the quickest means to an end. It might take a while and be rather fustrating at times, but it's still quicker. The alternative is to spend a lot of effort getting the "next" thing you want; waiting till the realization evenually hits you that all these things you've accumulated do not achieve the "goal" that you thought they would.

Granted, some things are easier to get ahold of than others; and I would recomend taking whatever is readily available. We aren't just spirits floating around out there for a reason. We have attatched ourselves (or have been attatched) to these physical bodies to gain something from the experience; so owning things, having relationships, and exerting control over our environment all come with the territory, imo.

[~Elise~]

There is nothing out there that can make you happy...it has to come from within YOU.

I'm reminded of the Charge of the Goddess...all your seeking will avail you not, for if that which you seek you do not find within you, you will never find it without.

Is is arrogant to be self-confident and self-assured...some seem to think so, but I think that is it because they are NOT that they have to say you're arrogant to bring you down to their level so they feel better about themselves.

I don't care if they say I'm arrogant and I may well be...but I don't care what they think. I've taken that time to Know MySelf...I've worked through most of that angst of what others think about me and I don't care. I KNOW what I can do, I KNOW what I want and I do it. I don't ask others what they think. The only one that matters in matters of our household is my husband...We see to our care and support, not on others opinions.
The majority of my kids are Christian...but I don't hide who or what I am from them. They were all here this weekend for myBday...not ONE thing was put up or hidden.

My magic is for us, it is for the group we lead (those are our 'family', as well) It is to help us all. I have no qualms doing whatever it is that is needed to help and or protect those I consider mine. I also, though, let them make their own decisions. Let them make their own mistakes...because it is through that experience that they will come to know themselves, as well. I give the tools needed, but it is up to them to use them, or not, their choice.
Do I always do the 'right' thing...no, I'm human, I make mistakes..but sometimes those mistakes are necessary to keep on the right path, or track.
I do high as well as low magic...I honor the God/dess that I work with. I honor the Ancestors, I honor the other realms I work with.
It is all part and parcel of who and what I am...there is no seperation.

Elise

[Philosophia]

In other words, I kept thinking if I just got X I would be happy.

This way instead of striving for X to make me happy, I am happy. I focus on happiness and self-development, on reaching the Sacred, and any "X" that can make that happen comes along naturally.

QFT

I know this sounds strange but I'm reminded of a Maeve Binchy book (I went through a period where I read a lot of her books) called "Evening class". The teacher of the class was a woman who struggled with money yet was content with her life. The book actually reminded me that I could be financially stable yet incredibly unhappy (like the main male character of the book) or I could find the happiness I need within and everything else should fall into place.

[Twinkle]

This is very true for me. The more I work on my higher self the less I need to worry about things in my everyday life. Things fall into place naturally. I trust that things will go according to my will as long as I am properly aligned and aware.

Part of being aware is continuous study. For me, it's more necessary than formal rituals. If I stop questioning and learning I am not going to progress. Progression is my goal. Spiritual evolution.


This is very similar to my beliefs. The more I work on being virtuous and ethical, the less I have to worry about things in my life...if I live well, then good things will come to me...without the use of magick.

[Theres]

In other words, I kept thinking if I just got X I would be happy.

This way instead of striving for X to make me happy, I am happy. I focus on happiness and self-development, on reaching the Sacred, and any "X" that can make that happen comes along naturally.
very true.

there are two ways to have enough...
one is to aquire more, the other is to desire less.

[Theres]

This is very true for me. The more I work on my higher self the less I need to worry about things in my everyday life. Things fall into place naturally. I trust that things will go according to my will as long as I am properly aligned and aware.

Part of being aware is continuous study. For me, it's more necessary than formal rituals. If I stop questioning and learning I am not going to progress. Progression is my goal. Spiritual evolution.
very well said GEBS!

this works for me also, and this has been the main focus of all my spiritual 'workings' for some time now.

[Xentor]

In other words, I kept thinking if I just got X I would be happy.

This way instead of striving for X to make me happy, I am happy. I focus on happiness and self-development, on reaching the Sacred, and any "X" that can make that happen comes along naturally.

Sorry 'bout that... K's already got me. ;)

[Twinkle]

Ugh. There you go again.:hehehehe:

[Xentor]

Ugh. There you go again.:hehehehe:

Oh, it was too easy to pass up on.