believing vs. knowing

[bellamandu]

i dont really know where this is coming from, but i feel like i should express it. be forewarned that it might be long, as i am currently not in control of my fingers...


This is it. This is what I've been waiting for; a culmination of why's and what if's has suddenly surged into... nothing.

But you see, this isn't a bad thing. I have finally figured out what I have been doing wrong all this time. All of those self-help gurus, classes, books, tv shows, spiritual faith........

well see, thats just the problem: faith.

You see, the word faith itself is a touchy subject for me. Faith. Just saying it gives me the shudders. Simply because faith, in and of itself, is a word that means that yes, if you believe hard enough, it might be there. it might happen. but herein lies another problem. the word Might........

that means that no matter how hard you believe, no matter how much faith you have, no matter how much you wish upon a star, despite the fact that yes it increases your chances, there is still that possibility. It might not.

And I can't deal with that. I cannot simply wish. I cannot simply believe. I cannot have faith in something that i know might not happen.

I must KNOW.

And some of you might look at what I am writing and say, well you cant simply just know unless it actually happens. or maybe, wow this sounds so self-involved, etc. But I implore you, if you have read this far, at least hear me out.

Do you remember what so many people have told you about the power of the spoken word? How a simple word can change so many things in your life... well how about changing this word. Stop saying "I believe" and begin saying "I know."

Take a spell for instance... in most scenarios, when you cast a spell, spoken word is involved. You might pray to the god or goddess or whoever fits the situation best. You ask for their help, their blessings, their good will, knowing that there is a chance that it might not work, that your prayers might not be answered.

At which point you say to yourself, well.. maybe it wasnt meant to be.

Well, you are wrong.

Instead of simply asking for the help you need, claim it. Know that it will be given to you. In fact, if you are daring enough.. give this a try...

Stop praying to someone else. Even pray to yourself. No. Dont simply pray. Know.

Instead of saying, Goddess, please help me in my endeavors to become financially stable, I have faith that you will bless me and my family; say...

I focus all of my energy and willpower into this one simple endeavor. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that i will become financially stable. I claim this, and I thank you for it, and I thank myself for being willing to accept this. I know that I am blessed.


Know that you are capable of doing whatever you want to do, be wherever you want to be. You must know it, and you must do it.

Stop waiting around, in hopes that one day you will be blessed.

Simply KNOW.


I have been pondering this for several days now. I have been wondering where i will be in 1 year, 5 years, 20 years. That type of thing does no good. Wondering. Hoping. Believing. Now I know where i will be. Don't ask me how, I just do.

and to be honest, this is the first time in my life where i have felt completely calm, serene, peaceful, happy. This is the first time that i havent been so overwhelmed with everything that was going on around me, with me, to me, to those i loved, that i actually have had time to stop and just.... think.

It just hit me in an instant. All of a sudden the madness that is my thought-process, all of the noise and choas inside my brain, it was all gone.

I just knew. Everything is going to be ok. In fact, everything IS ok.

[Agaliha]

First, I just wanted to ask you: do you mind if I move this thread to a more appropriate forum? This area is for more MySpace-y social aspects, not topics like this-- Just Pagan or Advanced Paganism would fit better ;)

Interesting thoughts! I'll probably be back with a comment of my own :)

[bellamandu]

First, I just wanted to ask you: do you mind if I move this thread to a more appropriate forum? This area is for more MySpace-y social aspects, not topics like this-- Just Pagan or Advanced Paganism would fit better ;)

Interesting thoughts! I'll probably be back with a comment of my own :)

thats fine :) i wasnt really sure where to post it anyway.

[Convallaria]

If it works for you, do it. For me, belief is knowledge. I wouldn't believe something was real unless I knew it was.

[cheddarsox]

It just hit me in an instant. All of a sudden the madness that is my thought-process, all of the noise and choas inside my brain, it was all gone.

I just knew. Everything is going to be ok. In fact, everything IS ok.

Interesting...

I've had the same "wake up" as you...sorta. Yes, everything is OK.

Knowing...sometimes I know...that a thing will come to pass, and then it does. I guess it was already in the process when the knowing filled me.

But some things, though I desire them to come to pass...I don't know. But I posit that sometimes the not knowing...is because it ain't happening...it is not always something I can do by changing my attitude or the wording I use in my head and heart.

What I am saying is that if I simply say "I know, and thankyou in advance"...it won't make it so. I have to really know...and the only times I really know is when the thing is destined to be anyway.

I can tune into what is going on and know ahead of time about some things, but I can't alter the course of the Universe because I claim to know...when I don't.

I've tried. I've changed the wording of "prayer" and intention in my head, I've written claiming spells, affirmations, etc about certain things. I wrote them out many times a day to solidify them, etc. They still don't necessarily come to pass.

but other things that I just "know"...come to pass without me claiming them, thanking anything for them, etc.

My original lack of knowing, is because something in me is tuned into the Universe and senses that the thing isn't coming to pass...so I can't "know" that it is or will.

Maybe this works differently for others, maybe when other people commit to knowing rather than believing it really changes the course of things, but several decades of "personal research" in my own life have shown me how it works in mine.

But...maybe you know that this is true for you, and so it is!

cheddar

[bellamandu]

Interesting...

I've had the same "wake up" as you...sorta. Yes, everything is OK.

Knowing...sometimes I know...that a thing will come to pass, and then it does. I guess it was already in the process when the knowing filled me.

But some things, though I desire them to come to pass...I don't know. But I posit that sometimes the not knowing...is because it ain't happening...it is not always something I can do by changing my attitude or the wording I use in my head and heart.

What I am saying is that if I simply say "I know, and thankyou in advance"...it won't make it so. I have to really know...and the only times I really know is when the thing is destined to be anyway.

I can tune into what is going on and know ahead of time about some things, but I can't alter the course of the Universe because I claim to know...when I don't.

I've tried. I've changed the wording of "prayer" and intention in my head, I've written claiming spells, affirmations, etc about certain things. I wrote them out many times a day to solidify them, etc. They still don't necessarily come to pass.

but other things that I just "know"...come to pass without me claiming them, thanking anything for them, etc.

My original lack of knowing, is because something in me is tuned into the Universe and senses that the thing isn't coming to pass...so I can't "know" that it is or will.

Maybe this works differently for others, maybe when other people commit to knowing rather than believing it really changes the course of things, but several decades of "personal research" in my own life have shown me how it works in mine.

But...maybe you know that this is true for you, and so it is!

cheddar


well yes, of course, im not going to be able to say, i know i can get a bmw for free and it magically appear.

im speaking more along the lines of an attitude change, change your attitude to change your life sort of like..


like for instance, if everyone if your life tells you that you are white trash and you will never amount to anything, you will eventually start to believe it, whether consciously or not. and so if some part of your brain believes that you are white trash, no matter how hard you dont want to be, whether you believe it consciously or not, you will never try to change it.

see what im getting at?

its basically me reprogramming my brain. if i keep saying "i know i will become financially stable" subconsciously whether i believe this or not, i will begin to work harder to achieve those goals.

its also sort of an energy manipulation.

in this case, when i am casting a spell, my words become stronger thus the positive energy i create becomes stronger.

[Rudas Starblaze]

congrats Bellamandu! :thumbsup: youve just taken your first step towards the real old school world of witchcraft past the new age BS fairy tale concepts of withcraft that says one must have a deity, path, religion/faith to be a witch. very well done! :woot:

[bellamandu]

congrats Bellamandu! :thumbsup: youve just taken your first step towards the real old school world of witchcraft past the new age BS fairy tale concepts of withcraft that says one must have a deity, path, religion/faith to be a witch. very well done! :woot:

is this really what you would consider it? i know pretty much nothing about old ways of witchcraft

edit: i do know that i have been a witch (or similar) in several past lives but i hardly remember any of it.

[Malcolm]

"is this really what you would consider it? i know pretty much nothing about old ways of witchcraft"


Nope, I'd call it something more along the lines of self-hypnosis. Then again, I don't really believe in magic.I just trust it.

[Rudas Starblaze]

is this really what you would consider it? i know pretty much nothing about old ways of witchcraft

edit: i do know that i have been a witch (or similar) in several past lives but i hardly remember any of it.

basically once ye get past the point of believing its necessary to have a religion/faith in some greater power in order to practice witchcraft and start believing in yourself.... you all set. whats the use in saying a prayer in hopes of it making a spell work? hell, if you have to pray for it and hope a deity answers, its not a spell IMO. prayers are wishful hoping, spells are taking action and doing things yourself. where people came up with the insane idea that witchcraft must have a religion is totally beyond me and its completely absurd. the basics of the old ways, take wicca, remove the wicca and wiccan rede, remove the religious/ceremonial aspects, remove the 3 fold law and karma hopes, and add in not fearing slaughtering your enemies as well as healing your allies and there, you pretty much have it. i never even heard of wicca until i was around 23, 24, 25 maybe, hell, ive been practicing witchcraft for darn near as long as i can remember. started researching wicca and honestly thought, "what a joke, they took an old practice, tied christianic/jewish practices to it to add a moral system, then out of spite of christianity, they say 'Goddess' instead of 'God'..." what was the purpose of that other than to make witchcraft more appealing and more acceptable? *shrugs*

[brymble]

I'm not really sure I'd draw a solid line between magick and hypnosis. They both have to do with altering consciousness in accordance with Will.

I think I'd take it a step further than what you've said, bellamandu, and say that it goes beyond an attitude change into a shift in consciousness. When I reached that point myself, that's what is was about, anyway: discovering the nature of consciousness. And that's the next step, discovering consciousness is that which does the knowing. Everything else is ego, and the letting go, the state of non-attachment or whatever you want to call it, begins there, centered in that zero-point. And then you stop fighting shit, and that's what Grace is.

[Dragon Moon]

Well, thank you for the smack upside my head :D

I have a lot of problems with faith myself, I have to know. Would you mind if I printed this out?

[bellamandu]

Well, thank you for the smack upside my head :D

I have a lot of problems with faith myself, I have to know. Would you mind if I printed this out?

go right ahead

[RainInanna]

As an aside, while using mantras, affirmations, and self hypnosis, you may wish to word your statements in the present - I notice you mention a statement relating to "I know I will". It is said that using statements in the future tense like that cement the idea that you will one day have X, which means you always "will" have it in the future, rather than having it right now in the present. So you should act as if you are already celebrating and enjoying that state you live in right now, to cement your intention that it exists right now in your life, and so it will exist right now in your life.

FWIW a short, easy to use guide on this technique, with several practical ideas and suggestions on how to use it, is Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain. That said, you can also find the concepts in a lot of the popular books out now such as The Secret. It's all the rage right now.

[bellamandu]

As an aside, while using mantras, affirmations, and self hypnosis, you may wish to word your statements in the present - I notice you mention a statement relating to "I know I will". It is said that using statements in the future tense like that cement the idea that you will one day have X, which means you always "will" have it in the future, rather than having it right now in the present. So you should act as if you are already celebrating and enjoying that state you live in right now, to cement your intention that it exists right now in your life, and so it will exist right now in your life.

FWIW a short, easy to use guide on this technique, with several practical ideas and suggestions on how to use it, is Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain. That said, you can also find the concepts in a lot of the popular books out now such as The Secret. It's all the rage right now.


the only problem i have with that is this...

lets again use the "financially stable" idea.

if i say "i know i will be financially stable" i claim it and work for it, and eventually achieve it.

but if i say "i know i am financially stable" i then have nothing to work for, thus i dont work for it, it never happens and i end up in a worse situation than i am. i start spending money i dont have, etc etc.

or maybe im just being too literal.

[RainInanna]

Well at least for me, being financially strong is an ongoing practice of monitoring debt and spending while improving income sources. So I would be always monitoring those lines and making sure things are working smoothly. It wouldn't be a one off for me, but something I'm always working on, even as I am financially strong. KWIM?

[bellamandu]

Well at least for me, being financially strong is an ongoing practice of monitoring debt and spending while improving income sources. So I would be always monitoring those lines and making sure things are working smoothly. It wouldn't be a one off for me, but something I'm always working on, even as I am financially strong. KWIM?


forgive me, but i have no idea what KWIM means, and seeing as you put a question mark behind it im assuming its a rather important question. 8O

[RainInanna]

haha no it's just "know what I mean" :) Sorry, shouldn't net speak here.

[bellamandu]

haha no it's just "know what I mean" :) Sorry, shouldn't net speak here.


no biggie :thumbsup:

[Tobias]

the only problem i have with that is this...

lets again use the "financially stable" idea.

if i say "i know i will be financially stable" i claim it and work for it, and eventually achieve it.

but if i say "i know i am financially stable" i then have nothing to work for, thus i dont work for it, it never happens and i end up in a worse situation than i am. i start spending money i dont have, etc etc.

or maybe im just being too literal.


To be financially stable, you have to will for it to happen. :) You have to take more pleasure in your financial stability than you do in spending your money.

Many people make loads of money, but spend it faster then they make it. Obviously that's not being very stable. You have to think like an investor rather than like a young rich person with lots of extra money to burn.

Unless that's what you're really shooting for instead? More money so you can have some fun without it taking away from your day to day needs? It's important to know exactly what it is you want so you can focus your efforts.

"Belief" can be used as an excuse for the moment to spend money you can't afford to spend. "Belief" can also be used as an attempt to work magick that will never actually happen. It just doesn't work that way. For it to work, you have to decide exactly what it is that you want, and then will for it to happen. And when it comes to finances the principles of magick work best to teach us how to get off our butts and make it happen in the real world, without casting spells and then sitting around waiting for gold and/or gems to suddenly appear in front of us!


Consider this too; some of the richest people in the world are also the most miserable. While at the same time some of the poorest are the happiest. What's the difference? I think it's that contentment is not tied in directly to finances. A Buddhist monk can sit in the dirt owning nothing but his clothes and a bowl to eat out of; and be one of the happiest persons on Earth. But some of the stars can own everything there is to buy, be young, popular, and have good looks; yet be totally miserable. What's the difference? Being able to "count your blessings"? Knowing that it's all "just an illusion"? Different philosophies can help to bring you to the same conclusion; that we don't always need what we think we need.


Just, I would say you need to be sure to make happiness and contentment your goal, higher than a more temporary desire/need for more finances.

Hope something I said here helps! :thumbsup:

[RainInanna]

Just, I would say you need to be sure to make happiness and contentment your goal, higher than a more temporary desire/need for more finances.

Ah true, good point. I realized when I sat down to think about why I wanted money, I truly wanted some of the feelings I associate with it - security, ability to provide, comfort. Those things may not require making a lot of money at all. We may be able to find other ways to satisfy those desires, thereby making ourselves happier, not just richer.

That's part of the idea in Creative Visualization too - visualizing how something makes you feel as if it is currently present. Then you get that feeling, not just dollars and cents, which is really what you're after anyway.

[Garm]

Faith

Knowledge

I find I don't need those personally

I only started dabbling in magic because I was interested in altered states of consciousness and wanted to explore the "shamanic" mindset

Needless to say I set myself up for a very rude awakening

[brymble]

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Garm. Good luck with that mindset, then. I hope you find your happiness.



Regarding techniques such as those in The Secret (is it just me, or is that the most well-marketed "secret" ever?) the main problem I have with them is that they focus mainly on material gain, and not on the desired state. Tobias was spot on when he suggested concentrating on happiness, rather than money. In Phil's prosperity workshop, he defines prosperity as the ability to do whatever it is you truly want to do. Dollars and cents are just content. And regarding making affirmations in the present tense rather than in the future ("I have" vs. "I will") remember, affirmations speak to the subconscious, not the conscious mind, which has a very different way of understanding. I would go one step further and not even bother with the affirmation, but give it a visualized image, a sound, and/or a feeling instead or in addition to the verbalized statement.

[Garm]

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Garm. Good luck with that mindset, then.

I should have emphasized the past tense to make myself clear

I have found that contrary to what I keep hearing I neither had to know or believe in order to do magic, my attitude was one of "OK, lets throw this switch and push the big red button just to see what happens."

That mindset, in fact, proved to be an asset for learning because it caused me to be a lot braver than was warranted by the circumstances.

Still, though, I try not to take anything for granted.

At the end of the day magic is only an illusion, it "works" because this intersubjective reality is just another and slightly different category of illusion.

But when you are up to your ass in alligators it is hard to remember that your original objective was to drain the swamp.

[Xander67]

I am so happy you have decided to share this Bellamandu. It is a clear and well channeled elaboration on the common "Knowledge is Power"

To know something, to manifest it, to have the faith and courage to apply it..

Oh, this is going to be one hell of a summer indeed! :)

[Philosophia]

Stop praying to someone else. Even pray to yourself. No. Dont simply pray. Know.

Instead of saying, Goddess, please help me in my endeavors to become financially stable, I have faith that you will bless me and my family; say...

I focus all of my energy and willpower into this one simple endeavor. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that i will become financially stable. I claim this, and I thank you for it, and I thank myself for being willing to accept this. I know that I am blessed.

Praying isn't necessarily asking a deity or spirit for help. It can be simple way of expressing ones feelings and thoughts into a simple declaration (which is what your last paragraph is).

Knowing yourself is a life goal because humans tend to be complicated little critters. :smile: Knowing that you will become financially secure is one thing, actually implementing the changes is another.

[Twinkle]

Interesting. I believe because I can reason it to be true...Once I know it to be true, I believe.

[AliceJ]

Interesting. I believe because I can reason it to be true...Once I know it to be true, I believe.
So can faith be decribed as the things you know to be true but at times defy reason?:smile:
Alice

[Twinkle]

Not really...at least, not for me. Faith doesn't really come into play. For me, nothing goes against natural law....so nothing I believe would really go against reason.:)

[plumedsnake]

There's this passage of Plato's Timaeus that I've been throwing about the www and seeing what people think. He talks about the different between knowledge and Opinion, or Truth and what he calls 'the likely story' which basically is probabilistic rather than definate. According to him our worldly way of thinking can only tell us 'the likely story'.


We must in my opinion begin by distinguishing between that which always is and never becomes (ie. the eternal) from that which is always becoming but never is (the temporal).* The one is apprehensible by INTELLIGENCE with the aid of REASONING, being eternally the same, the other is the object of opinion and irrational sensation, coming to be and ceasing to be, but never fully real.* . . . . Thus a description of what is changeless, fixed and clearly intelligible will be changeless and fixed - will be, that is, as irrefutable and incontrovertible as a description in words can be; but analogously a description of a likeness of the changeless, being a description of a mere likeness will be merely likely; for being has to becoming the same relation as truth to belief.* Don't therefore be surprised, Socrates, if on many matters concerning the gods and the world of change we are unable in every respect and on every occasion to render consistent and accurate account.* You must be satisfied if your account is as likely as any, remembering that both I and you who are sitting in judgement on it are merely human, and should not look for anything more than a likely story in such matters.

[therumpypumpyfaery]

I'm slightly confused by the orignal post as to me to have Faith means to know deep in your heart without need for proof.

The phrase I believe or I have faith means to me not that "I think it might be true" it says to me instead that "I KNOW it's true, but I acknowledge that not everyone agrees with my truth"

To me, when I'm saying I have my faith, and that I believe I'm saying "This is my truth, this is what I know in my heart to be true and nothing you can say can change that. But I know you won't necessarily agree with me. I don't care, but I still acknowledge it"

I suppose if you use the word faith depends on how you define faith.

I connect Faith with the spiritual beliefs I've had since I was a child. As far as I'm concerned that is the truth. It is an immovable fact, but I also believe that other people have their own truths, but that their truth, doesn't change my truth. That's actually part of my belief. Nothing can change it, I have tried to push it and move and shove it into so many little boxes but it never fit because I can't change what I know to be true.

So to me Faith, is what I have no choice but to believe, because I know it's true.

It's kinda like, I believe that my husband is a good man, I have faith in him. That's because I KNOW he's a good man, and that I can trust him. That's why I have faith.

That's just my take though.

[Shosha]

Yes! that's EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell folks!

Thank you...

My I have your permission to print that post for my BoS?

[clearing]

Reality is Divinity. It is the context which all things arise. We can only prove what arises, because it is limited. We cannot prove Reality, however, because that is unlimited. But I think reality is self-evident. :D

I suggest you hold onto faith with your life, you do not know where or how it will take you, but you do not need to. That is up to God, beyond your reasoning.


Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling—
even the LORD, who is my refuge-
10 then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him
and show him my salvation."

[plumedsnake]

Is what most of us call Faith in actual fact just conviction? Shouldn't we be saying I have a conviction of the existence of God. I'd rather use conviction than faith because faith carries connotations of irrationality and religious bigotry.

[Karri Morgan]

I dont know if I should be in the advanced paganism section, but this topic really is one I care about.

People who state unproven things as facts annoy me to some degree, variable to the situation. When they judge the world, and other people, after their own religious views.
It should be forbidden. (:P)

I mean, I dont mind someone saying that, for eksample, because of my belief I dont accept Shemales as moral people. Or, I dont agree with the muslims, or their doctrines.
That is quite alright.

But, to use the classic, a hardcore christian who tells me, I am going to hell, because I call the divine force "Her, and She", and because I like other females. It pisses me off. People that are so arrogant, that they believe the whole world, and every other human should think and feel, as they do, or at least accept that they are less moral and good, because they dont believe "right".

I dont think faith and belief has anything to do with facts. We cannot prove what we believe in. Not to other people.

My opinion is that we choose our belief, either conciously or unconsiously, and that is a choice everyone has the right to make.

I cannot fysically prove, or know, exactly in what form the divine excists, or even if it excists. If I cant prove it, I cannot know it. We can choose to believe, though, and wish to believe, and make ourselves believe we know for ourselves. But I cant say that what I believe is the truth.

For example, I dont believe in reincarnation. But that does not mean I am right, and that there is no such thing. I dont want to be reincarnated, so I dont believe in it.

We are human beings, if we were supposed to know, then we would have, and if there is nothing there to know, then we never will :P

I dont understand that people have to know the truth about everything. It wont happen. You`ll know if people are reincarnated the day you die. Or you might not. The new body may not remember it, or might not want to remember, or never get the chance to remember.

I just have a problem the term faith, being translated to fact. Because that is not in the definition of the word. And if you dont know that it is a fact, then you cannot force it upon others.

Edit:

PlumedSnake:

I dont think it matters what you call it, I am more concerned about the way you define the term. Does your conviction mean that you believe it should be a written fact, for everyone to know, or is it about a commitment to a faith, that you have for yourself. I like the second one.

I think faith is, or at least should be, a commitment. A way a person determines to look upon life and death, for themselves. Not for others.

[Darth Brooks]

I'm slightly confused by the orignal post as to me to have Faith means to know deep in your heart without need for proof.

The phrase I believe or I have faith means to me not that "I think it might be true" it says to me instead that "I KNOW it's true, but I acknowledge that not everyone agrees with my truth"

I am in 100% agreement with you here. For some people, "faith" seems to have connotations of bigotry and irrationality, but that has never been the way I see it. And I've never understood the point in dichotomizing between "faith" and "knowledge," either. Faith damn well is a form of knowledge, it's just knowledge in an area that transcends proof. I think it's something of an oxymoron that some people who believe in magic choose to deride faith as something for the ignorant. Even if you don't believe in a god, surely all practicing magicians have some kind of faith in their own rituals, which means surely they know there is something true about them - otherwise, why are they wasting their time?

Furthermore, the word "prayer" is often misused in everyday discussion. Most people think that when you "pray" you're supposed to grovel before a deity and beg them to send you a check in the mail or something. That isn't prayer in the truest sense. Prayer is, quite simply, a means of communing with a higher power or powers, which can be done through the recitation of certain "words of power" (like, "In Jesus' name we pray, Amen"), or through silent meditation. The point is not to give your deity a grocery list of wishes and wants, but to open yourself up to the deity and bask in its presence. It is similar, if not identical, to what is called bhakti yoga in the Eastern traditions.

[bellamandu]

this comes to mind with the discussion some of you brought up about whether or not these things can be proven as a fact to someone else.

to me, its all a matter of perception. i remember reading an autobiography on this guy in school, forgot who his name was but thats not really relevant. he had this whole theory about fact and belief. he stated that facts, other than mathematical truths, we merely a matter of perception. what one person sees, might not be what another person sees, and even though guy a knows for a "fact" that said scenario happened, guy b might have seen something completely different, hence a completely different fact. in their minds it has been proven to them without a doubt but it would be impossible to "prove" it to another person unless they saw it themselves, in which case the perception of it still might be an entirely different scenario.

now follow me here, he uses the concept of time as a very strange but strangely coherent example.

it brings to mind a book i read once that explains it perfectly. the title is on the tip of my tounge but im pretty sure it was written by albert camus, if you remember which one it would be greatly appreciated.

anyway, the plot of the book is a total mindf--k on perception. the story is about an older gentleman who was in ww2. but unfortunately, he has problems distinguishing between past and future. one minute he was back in the war, the next minute he was an old senile man constantly being nagged by his daughter.

in the middle of all this, one day he is abducted by aliens and lives in this space zoo for many years being studied by said aliens. yeah i know, it sounds off the wall but by the time you finish the book it doesnt sound so kooky.

anyway, one day on this alien planet there is a large crowd surrounding him. he decides to humor them. he asks the aliens, "you guys must think we humans are so brutal and nieve. we live our lives surrounded by war and murder, yet you being of obviously higher intelligence live a life of peace and multitude."

he gets in return an awkward silence and strange looks and confusion.

one of the aliens reply, "no, see you dont understand. time is not liner as you humans see it. it is merely a perception your minds have created because your inferior minds wouldn't be able to comprehend time in its true form. you see time happens all at once, it is always happening, and it is always repeating. we simply choose to focus on the happier moments in our existance."

anyway, i kinda lost where i was going with this, but im sure you get my point. :lol:

[Darth Brooks]

bellamandu, the book you are thinking of is called Slaughterhouse-Five, and it was written by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. There's an excellent film version of it as well. It's also a perfect example of the point you made. :)

[bellamandu]

bellamandu, the book you are thinking of is called Slaughterhouse-Five, and it was written by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. There's an excellent film version of it as well. It's also a perfect example of the point you made. :)


wow, i was way off wasnt i? :hahugh:

btw, i effing love you!

[Darth Brooks]

LOL, give yourself some credit. At least you were able to describe what the book is about. I can't stand it when people just say, "What was the name of that book by that guy?" :bigredgri