Hey Gods! It's feedin time!

[Sage Rainsong]

OK, so I was two timing MW and looking at another forum and I cam across a rather rude and yet thought provoking post. This person was into a Celtic tradition and then made her way to an African based path (I'm not sure which one) She said that all of the talented pagan magical practitioners are moving away from Paganism to more African based paths because they are supposedly more powerful. The reasoning behind this is that the African spirits where continuously fed where as the Pagan ones where not so hence they are less able to interact with the world. I realize that this is rather rude and it may produce some angry responses (for the record I didn't write it lol) but do you think that she has a point? Are the Gods massive thought forms? Are offerings more than a way for one to gain a spirits attention? Do offerings give the spirits the strength and the ability to interact in our world in any way? So what are your thoughts?

[Brightshores]

My personal opinion, and I'm not trying to knock anyone else's path, is that the Gods are more powerful than we are. I think the Gods are able to interact with anything and anyone they wish, at any time, regardless of what offerings are given to them and how many people perform X ritual, Y prayer or Z sacrifice. I think Gods exist separately from humans and are not created by human religious or spiritual activity. Only my opinion though - I fully understand that a lot of people disagree.

[Lunacie]

OK, so I was two timing MW and looking at another forum and I cam across a rather rude and yet thought provoking post. This person was into a Celtic tradition and then made her way to an African based path (I'm not sure which one) She said that all of the talented pagan magical practitioners are moving away from Paganism to more African based paths because they are supposedly more powerful. The reasoning behind this is that the African spirits where continuously fed where as the Pagan ones where not so hence they are less able to interact with the world. I realize that this is rather rude and it may produce some angry responses (for the record I didn't write it lol) but do you think that she has a point? Are the Gods massive thought forms? Are offerings more than a way for one to gain a spirits attention? Do offerings give the spirits the strength and the ability to interact in our world in any way? So what are your thoughts?

I'd like to know where that person got the idea that "all" talented Pagan magical practicioners were switching to African based paths? Apparently s/he feels that anyone who isn't making the switch isn't really all that talented, eh? I'd be asking for something to back up that particular claim as I find it quite ridiculous. :giggle:

[Shawn Cameron]

My personal opinion, and I'm not trying to knock anyone else's path, is that the Gods are more powerful than we are. I think the Gods are able to interact with anything and anyone they wish, at any time, regardless of what offerings are given to them and how many people perform X ritual, Y prayer or Z sacrifice. I think Gods exist separately from humans and are not created by human religious or spiritual activity. Only my opinion though - I fully understand that a lot of people disagree.

Took the words right out of my mouth :thumbsup:

[Brightshores]

Just thinking about this some more.. I liken it to a parent-child relationship in some ways. A parent will absolutely love it when their child makes a big construction paper drawing that says "I love you Mommy/Daddy." That doesn't mean that the parent needs that drawing to exist, or needs it to maintain his or her parental role.

[Artiste-LiLi]

OK, so I was two timing MW and looking at another forum and I cam across a rather rude and yet thought provoking post. This person was into a Celtic tradition and then made her way to an African based path (I'm not sure which one) She said that all of the talented pagan magical practitioners are moving away from Paganism to more African based paths because they are supposedly more powerful. The reasoning behind this is that the African spirits where continuously fed where as the Pagan ones where not so hence they are less able to interact with the world. I realize that this is rather rude and it may produce some angry responses (for the record I didn't write it lol) but do you think that she has a point? Are the Gods massive thought forms? Are offerings more than a way for one to gain a spirits attention? Do offerings give the spirits the strength and the ability to interact in our world in any way? So what are your thoughts?

Well, I don't know 'bout all that. Like someone else said...I'd like to see what data they are basing their claims upon. And just for the record....I am a member of an African based family tradition, I consider myself to be talented in a number of areas and I don't think that way.

[aluokaloo]

Just thinking about this some more.. I liken it to a parent-child relationship in some ways. A parent will absolutely love it when their child makes a big construction paper drawing that says "I love you Mommy/Daddy." That doesn't mean that the parent needs that drawing to exist, or needs it to maintain his or her parental role.

I love this answer it's great!

[Toby Stimpson]

Well its an interesting idea.

Its kind of like the idea of... the Ori from Stargate. The Ori feed on the energy sent to them by their worshippers, thats what drives their need to have more worshippers and spread the religion... so they can have more energy.

Now if we were to take this idea that this person presents... and put it to something. Then we would see that not all Pantheons would be weak, and not all members of certain pantheons would be weak. We know that some Gods from celtic cultures were absorbed and became saints, and recieve veneration in a similar way that they would have done as Gods. St. Bride for example. If that is the case, then Brigit would be very powerful because she would have receieved energy all along.

So I disagree with this individuals assumption that this is the case. And either way, even if that were the case... more and more Pagans I see on this board and on others are branching out from the five major Pantheons that seemed doomed to be the cliches of Pagan reconstruction (Celtic, Roman, Greek, Egytian, Norse and Hellenic influenced)... and are looking at Gods from very diverse cultures. So those gods would begin to be fed again, and become stronger.

That is, if we believe this person's idea... which I dont :)

[childofbast]

This is a very interesting topic and I'm inclined to agree with what everyone else has said so far.

I do, like Toby, think that the Gods become more powerful based on the energy/belief we put into them. But I don't think that any one tradition is the all powerful gas station for the Gods. And heck, some Pagans don't even think they need Gods to perform magic. I think the person making this statement is just being an elitist.

~Melanie

[Sequoia]

I think the idea is kind of silly - no, very silly. "These gods over here aren't as powerful, so people (who are interested only in power, not in spirituality) are moving to African paths. Because African = Win and Celtic = Fail, don't you know?"

There does seem to have been a rise in interest of African paths... not sure why. Maybe there's been a surge of popularity amongst groups interested in their cultural roots, or perhaps there's been a book or TV show about it, who really knows?

I don't think that gods lose power. Certainly the more that people believe, the more strongly that entity is going to exist to them. And the more energy directed at something, the more energy it's going to have. But I don't think that gods went dormant and withered away over time. Perhaps they slumbered? But who really knows what gods and other spirits do on their own time? We are but mere humans. How do we know what the gods are up to on their own planes of existence? And they DO have their own levels of existence apart from our own... they are independent life forms, after all. Sort of.

[coeur]

I've studied various magical paradigms for close to ten years; I am less interested in magic as a personal practice than as a mode of thinking since I find doing things the normal way quicker. My interest in modes of thinking led me to Phil Hine's work. Hine, an author popular among chaos magician circles, frequently deals with paradigms or ways of seeing the Universe. Hine lays a number of paradigms out for examination, including paradigms that take deities as autonomous entities and deities as psychological manifestations of practitioners. His analysis concludes that no one paradigm is ever capable of explaining the total functions and occurrences of the Universe. In other words, there is no correct way to view the Universe since all views ultimately fail to account for everything that occurs.

As a result, chaos magicians depend on paradigm shifting so they will be more ready to pick up the blind spots of, say, the psychological model.

Of course, this is all an elaborate way of saying, 'There is no answer to the question of what are deities and how do they operate'--at least not one we can arrive at through observations and thorough logical discourse. The fact remains there is no reliable way to observe a deity and its effect on the physical world--for the simple reason that, while some of us believe in magic, most of us also believe in the possibility of delusion or hallucination or exaggeration or just plain coincidence.

Goetic magic does have similar elements of sacrifice, offering, and ultimately bargaining and it has been hailed throughout several communities as one of the more effective means of magic--it's also been considered one of the more terrifying. I think the process of bargaining or 'doing business' with deities is much more reassuring than simply 'leaving it in God/gods' hands.' The process of magic becomes a transaction and, in our consumeristic society, that sounds a lot more dependable.

The original poster has assumed that the factor that has changed with 'bargaining' is the gods' strength, however, he or she neglects to consider 'bargaining' increases the magician's confidence as well. After all, the deities are bound to do whatever it is they are asked if the magician carries out his or her end of the deal--theoretically--and that helps some magicians trust in their own magic more.

Ultimately, I do not believe deities exist as completely autonomous entities, nor do I believe deities exist as completely dependent entities. I believe the nature of deities is complex, which is just another fancy way of saying I don't really know how a deity operates, though I suspect a deity exists in several parts and may be part autonomous and part dependent on its worshipers.

[Toby Stimpson]

This is a very interesting topic and I'm inclined to agree with what everyone else has said so far.

I do, like Toby, think that the Gods become more powerful based on the energy/belief we put into them. But I don't think that any one tradition is the all powerful gas station for the Gods. And heck, some Pagans don't even think they need Gods to perform magic. I think the person making this statement is just being an elitist.

~Melanie

Just as a clarification... I don't believe that. I was making arguments based on an assumed belief from this individual... and making counter arguments based upon his/her logic.

[cheddarsox]

There is a school of thought that believes that the gods do need honor, sacrifice, etc to retain their powers. Apparently that woman is of that school of belief. It makes sense to her, based on how she understands the cosmos to be ordered.

It can be tricky NOT to take offense at such, but sometimes, if we realize the person is coming from a different school of thought, we can see it in THEIR context and see where they are coming from, their motivations.

She may have just been explaining why she made the move she made and why others she knows did the same, with no intention of dissing your gods or magic.

I come from a non-theistic school of thought, so I am used to having to "switch gears" in my mind from the way I understand the cosmos, to what a person is saying to me according to the way THEY understand the cosmos. They are not insulting me, they are not even thinking about me, they are just explaining themselves. Usually, sometimes they are trying to insult me.

I try to return the favor by explaining how I understand things, and then we both walk away with some food for thought.

I think that there is a lot of her sort of thinking in the history of many pagan faiths, not all, but many. Many people felt that in order to maintain the order of things they needed to "feed" their gods. This isn't new thought, it's very old thought.

The idea that gods are independently powerful, I suspect, is probably a later innovation in most cultures, from the history of religions that I've studied over the years (sorry, can't produce sources at this moment)

Monotheism has had a huge effect on the philosophical underpinnings of the Western world, and how people view the role of deity and our relationship to them. A lot of their philosophy has been absorbed, as has a lot of techonological "philosophy" as well. Modern paganism, even some that claims to be recon, has been influenced by modern culture.

That's not a good or bad thing, it's just the simple truth.

so, I'd say, slow down, take a breath. Do some reading and see how what she is proposing IS part of the rich heritage of modern paganism, and then see how it feels to you.

We may choose not to embrace some aspects of pagan faiths from earlier times, (human sacrafice, animal sacrifice, etc) but it doesn't hurt us to acknowledge them, try to understand their origins and importance, etc before deciding whether to hang on to them or move on.

Pagan religions stem from a very different experience of life than the global, technological one most of us now live in, that's part of what we love about them, but can also make us uncomfortable with some of the issues in our past.

[RainInanna]

I wonder, does the idea of feeding them help build a close relationship with them, inviting them closer to our plane and specifically our lives? Does it help them feel connected to us and vice versa? Is it maybe not a matter of power at all, but a matter of building a strong, ongoing relationship that pulls the gods close to us and us close to them?

And also, does anyone else feel some deities *are* stronger than others? If so, why do you suppose that is?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Perhaps I am looking sat this from a different slant but I can see how one might think the African influenced religions are stronger and growing. From a continuation facet those are really the only "Paganish" religions that can be said to have continued unabated. While outlawed they continued to be practiced, some in plain seight.

They have not been infected with the happy happy joyful joyful all is love and white light that has plagued the European inspired pagan paths. If anything, they are seen more in a dark and forboding manner. I am not aware of any groups that claim to have been founded upon some book or created something so it fit thier ideal of what religion is. No take this drop that because it makes one feel better. No it is a take the good with the bad, the right with the wrong, etc.

While some books talk of thier (collectively) formats and beliefs, very few have flooded the market or picked up by teens like the Wiccan versions have. Few of thier practices were made public. None that I am aware of permit a "I am, there for I can" attitude to take root. One does not become a priest or priestess in a few months or make themselves such.

I can see how one might see those gods / goddess or Spirits as stronger for they survived and continued into the present day. Many were combined with saints of the new religion, making them even stronger for they where honored within and without of the group.

All my encounters with the 'Carribean" religions have been in tightly nit groups, that seldom allowed outsiders to enter. Was tightly drawn about older practices and adherance to those practices. In many instances passed down from blood line to blood line and only allowed change from within.

Many groups arose out of harsh conditions and thier gods / goddesses tough that harshness was part of life. Good was good but evil was not wrong. Sacrifice and blood letting was honor to their gods / goddess or spirits. In some ways one might suggest they have kept many of the darker facets that once prevailed amongst the European religions of old.

I think some might even see the Caribbean practices as more pure and honor bound than the European or Asian inspired Pagan pathways. In some ways one might think that the old gods / goddess are being re-discovered by European inspired Pagan / Heathen beliefs, and they would be right. However, to many African inspired belief systems they don't need that, they never let theirs go!

[~Elise~]

Perhaps I am looking sat this from a different slant but I can see how one might think the African influenced religions are stronger and growing. From a continuation facet those are really the only "Paganish" religions that can be said to have continued unabated.

Ummm, no...they are not the only religion that has continued unabated...Heathen has continued...Odin/Thor/Freyja and company are alive and doing well. The only point of debate in that one is whether you consider them Paganish.

Elise

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Not trying to start an argument but please show me any indicaton that a heathen religion has continued unabated. It has only been in the last few years that any Nordic country has even recognized any of the Heathen religions.

Christanity pretty much over ruled all the Heathen religons as it did the Pagan religons of Southern Europe. Most holy sites usupered and rebuilt as Christian holy sites with churchs.

That the gods existed is not in doubt but most were relagated to the realm of mythology not religion.

The Carribean religions and slave influences carried their spirits all along the way. Show me any Nordic religions that took the saints and religious icons of Christanity and blended their powers and influences in the totality that the Pan American relgions have done.

[David19]

My personal opinion, and I'm not trying to knock anyone else's path, is that the Gods are more powerful than we are. I think the Gods are able to interact with anything and anyone they wish, at any time, regardless of what offerings are given to them and how many people perform X ritual, Y prayer or Z sacrifice. I think Gods exist separately from humans and are not created by human religious or spiritual activity. Only my opinion though - I fully understand that a lot of people disagree.

QFT, that's, pretty much, what I believe. The Gods are a lot more powerful than humans, the Gods can, pretty much, appear to whoever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want, etc. They don't need offerings to "live", they might like certain offerings, but they don't need them, also, even if the Gods did, somehow, need the offerings, they are Gods, they could just make them appear, when humans weren't giving them to them, etc. If the Gods did need "belief to live", or "offerings to live", etc, then, a lot of the Gods would have "died off" by now, wouldn't they?, I mean, the Sumerian Gods haven't been worshipped in thousands of years (some of them lost a lot of their worshippers, even before the rise of Christianity), but, I can tell you, they are still very, very powerful, and a big force in the world/universe/multiverse (in fact, it's likely, they've been behind some of the advances that have come about, even though they weren't being worshipped).

I definitely agree the Gods are seperate from humans, and don't need our beliefs, offerings, etc "to live", etc.



Well its an interesting idea.

Its kind of like the idea of... the Ori from Stargate. The Ori feed on the energy sent to them by their worshippers, thats what drives their need to have more worshippers and spread the religion... so they can have more energy.

Now if we were to take this idea that this person presents... and put it to something. Then we would see that not all Pantheons would be weak, and not all members of certain pantheons would be weak. We know that some Gods from celtic cultures were absorbed and became saints, and recieve veneration in a similar way that they would have done as Gods. St. Bride for example. If that is the case, then Brigit would be very powerful because she would have receieved energy all along.

So I disagree with this individuals assumption that this is the case. And either way, even if that were the case... more and more Pagans I see on this board and on others are branching out from the five major Pantheons that seemed doomed to be the cliches of Pagan reconstruction (Celtic, Roman, Greek, Egytian, Norse and Hellenic influenced)... and are looking at Gods from very diverse cultures. So those gods would begin to be fed again, and become stronger.

That is, if we believe this person's idea... which I dont :)

QFT, again good post :).

[David19]

I think the idea is kind of silly - no, very silly. "These gods over here aren't as powerful, so people (who are interested only in power, not in spirituality) are moving to African paths. Because African = Win and Celtic = Fail, don't you know?"

There does seem to have been a rise in interest of African paths... not sure why. Maybe there's been a surge of popularity amongst groups interested in their cultural roots, or perhaps there's been a book or TV show about it, who really knows?

I don't think that gods lose power. Certainly the more that people believe, the more strongly that entity is going to exist to them. And the more energy directed at something, the more energy it's going to have. But I don't think that gods went dormant and withered away over time. Perhaps they slumbered? But who really knows what gods and other spirits do on their own time? We are but mere humans. How do we know what the gods are up to on their own planes of existence? And they DO have their own levels of existence apart from our own... they are independent life forms, after all. Sort of.

Again, QFT, and very true, the Gods do have their own lives, in their own realms and planes, they don't just sit around "waiting for humans to worship them", they have their own relationships, lives, etc, and that goes for other beings too, from ghosts, to other spirits, demons, angels, Fae, whatever, etc.

[David19]

I wonder, does the idea of feeding them help build a close relationship with them, inviting them closer to our plane and specifically our lives? Does it help them feel connected to us and vice versa? Is it maybe not a matter of power at all, but a matter of building a strong, ongoing relationship that pulls the gods close to us and us close to them?

And also, does anyone else feel some deities *are* stronger than others? If so, why do you suppose that is?

I do believe that some Gods may be more powerful, and stronger, than other Gods, but, not in the sense that a God, or Gods, have more worshippers "& draws power from them, etc, but, in the same way, that some humans are more powerful, and stronger, than some other humans. Humans don't "draw power, and strength", from people's belief in them, do they?, so, it wouldn't be any different for Gods, spirits, demons, angels, Fae, whatever, etc.

[Toby Stimpson]

I think it's a chicken and the egg scenario.

Do people worship Gods becasue they are powerful, or are they Powerful because a lot of people worship them? Lets take a well known God vs. a lesser known God. The more well known gods are and seem to be more powerful than lesser known Gods. Are the lesser known Gods...known for their power? Well, not really because it seems all the most powerful Gods are worshipped over them. Take...Osiris vs. Seker. Osiris is the more well known God and has more worshippers... it doesnt speak to seker's power though but one could draw the conclusion more people follow Osiris becasue he is more powerful?

This is all conjecture after all, as everyone in this thread have different beliefs and different opinions... whether they are based on facts or not.

[Teresa]

I come from an African Based Tradition, and while I do think that some deities are more powerful than others, I DO NOT Think that one set of Gods are more powerful than another set from a different tradition.


This is just some information and I may or may not personally believe all of it. I am writing it to help give some background.

Where I come from we give offerings on a regular basis as we form a bond with these deities. We make a promise to them and have to keep it or suffer the consequences. As time goes on our relationship with the deity grows and we promise to do more but we have to be careful to only promise something that we can carry through on. Some people believe that by forming that relationship and maintaining it when times of trouble come along for you the deity will come to your aid or that you can petition them for help. There are others that will tell you that they serve a certain deity because their life depends on it and also more that will say because it is a family tradition to do so. You can get a multitude of answers which can be legitimate. I do believe that ATR Gods are powerful but I do not think they are more powerful than someone else's Gods.

As far as this being the new cool fad to do, I was not aware of that. I know many people who have been searching their Ancestory and have felt a pull to investigate or felt called by them.

[Garm]

[QUOTE=Sage Rainsong;3630051She said that all of the talented pagan magical practitioners are moving away from Paganism to more African based paths because they are supposedly more powerful. [/QUOTE]

Not if my IRL experience is to serve as any guide post

Although, to be fair, I don't know how representative the F--- ups I have had to deal with are to be taken as practitioners of African based paths

[~Elise~]

Not trying to start an argument but please show me any indicaton that a heathen religion has continued unabated. It has only been in the last few years that any Nordic country has even recognized any of the Heathen religions.

Christanity pretty much over ruled all the Heathen religons as it did the Pagan religons of Southern Europe. Most holy sites usupered and rebuilt as Christian holy sites with churchs.

That the gods existed is not in doubt but most were relagated to the realm of mythology not religion.

The Carribean religions and slave influences carried their spirits all along the way. Show me any Nordic religions that took the saints and religious icons of Christanity and blended their powers and influences in the totality that the Pan American relgions have done.

Heathen folkway has been in existance since pre-Christian times and has been practiced in essentially the same form since those times. They have a written lore in the Sagas and the Eddas that goes back more than 2K years. The difference between mythology and religion is who is doing the writing, and you should know that.
Dude, I don't have time to do your research for you, but start with www.northvegr.org (http://www.northvegr.org) . Or, you don't even have to leave MW - go to the Asatru forum and look through there, but if I were you, I wouldn't make the statement you just did in there.

Elise

[Nitefalle]

The reason I disagree with this is because I have had interaction with a Gallic goddess that was obscure even in Gallic times. I was able to only find two historic references about her, which were merely a blurb and could possibly have been talking about another Gallic goddess that was much more popular and had a similarly spelled name. But through meditation and ritual, I was able to interact with Her and she's not exactly anemic or weak. She comes through very strongly, but by the logic of the "without worshippers gods waste away" theory, this goddess would be nonexistent.

[David19]

The reason I disagree with this is because I have had interaction with a Gallic goddess that was obscure even in Gallic times. I was able to only find two historic references about her, which were merely a blurb and could possibly have been talking about another Gallic goddess that was much more popular and had a similarly spelled name. But through meditation and ritual, I was able to interact with Her and she's not exactly anemic or weak. She comes through very strongly, but by the logic of the "without worshippers gods waste away" theory, this goddess would be nonexistent.

Very true, if the belief that the Gods "disappear, or "go to sleep", etc, when they don't have worshippers" were true, a lot of the Sumerian Gods wouldn't be here, or wouldn't be as strong, powerful, etc, but they definitely are.

I think, some humans can't understand that the Gods aren't just concerned with humans, they do have lives, like I said before, in their own realms, planes, etc, when humans weren't worshipping them, they still carried on with their own lives, maybe they influenced certain things in this realm/plane (like, I think, the Sumerian Gods, probably, did), etc.

[childofbast]

Just as a clarification... I don't believe that. I was making arguments based on an assumed belief from this individual... and making counter arguments based upon his/her logic.

Sorry Toby. I apologize. :)

And just to clarify myself - I didn't say that I thought the Gods depended on our worship to exist, just that it helped to make them stronger.

In regards to what keeps the Gods alive or awake - I'm more agnostic about that. I've had no spiritual experiences to cause me to believe one way or the other.

~Melanie

[Philosophia]

My opinion on this...

Deities are whatever you want them to be. Everybody has their own viewpoint of what they are and, in my opinion, they are valid. People experience things differently, they experience deities the way they want to. However, that doesn't mean they experience them wrong or that they don't "understand".

I don't see my deities as human forms, with distant lands in their own realms and planes of existence. They are here, in this world, with us but they don't exist in what we define as "lives". For me, they are representations of energy that exists around us and only come in forms that we can understand.

Do they lose power if we don't believe in them? In a way but they don't "die" (since, in my belief, energy can't die). They go into a hibernation of sorts, where they can be "switched" back on by somebody who they take an interest in.

[Xentor]

In Ceremonial Magic, a magician will invoke or evoke a more powerful being, usually gods and demons, to have some wish granted. The idea there is, that one has to familiarize themselves with the deities enough to understand who does what, and how powerful one has to be to control them. They use deities from lots of pantheons: they are practical like that, using what they need. Does that make Ceremonial Magic more powerful than African types of magic? (Then again, a Ceremonial Magician might not like being lumped in with Pagans... ;) )

[David19]

In Ceremonial Magic, a magician will invoke or evoke a more powerful being, usually gods and demons, to have some wish granted. The idea there is, that one has to familiarize themselves with the deities enough to understand who does what, and how powerful one has to be to control them. They use deities from lots of pantheons: they are practical like that, using what they need. Does that make Ceremonial Magic more powerful than African types of magic? (Then again, a Ceremonial Magician might not like being lumped in with Pagans... ;) )

Unless they are a Pagan ;).

[Terra Mater]

I gain power from my Sims worshipping me. Does that make me deluded? A god? A deluded god? :hehehe:

My bad joke demonstrates my views on this. I see the gods much as I see my fellow Simmers. Each of us has our own idea for Simming, some create entire nations of Sims, others create a few favored Sims, and still others create their Sims strictly to abuse them.

Also makes me wonder, are the gods with the most worshippers like my fellow Simmers in that those with the most really need to get a life outside of Simming? Would that make Jehovah the cosmological equivalent of a 35 year old that still lives in his widowed mother's basement?

These are just some of the things I think about since Carlin died.:hehehe:

[evergreen]

I gain power from my Sims worshipping me. Does that make me deluded? A god? A deluded god? :hehehe:

:lol:

Joking aside, I don't believe the gods need offerings to be powerful. I do wonder whether there are other... energies or spirits, I guess I would call them, that will latch onto you if you give them sacrifices. Its hard for me to describe, because I personally have never sacrificed anything and never will.

I do sometimes give offerings to house spirits and such but I don't feel it gives them power.

[David19]

I gain power from my Sims worshipping me. Does that make me deluded? A god? A deluded god? :hehehe:

My bad joke demonstrates my views on this. I see the gods much as I see my fellow Simmers. Each of us has our own idea for Simming, some create entire nations of Sims, others create a few favored Sims, and still others create their Sims strictly to abuse them.

Also makes me wonder, are the gods with the most worshippers like my fellow Simmers in that those with the most really need to get a life outside of Simming? Would that make Jehovah the cosmological equivalent of a 35 year old that still lives in his widowed mother's basement?

These are just some of the things I think about since Carlin died.:hehehe:

:lol:, although, I don't think YHWH fits the 35 year old virgin profile, he seems quite a player (he's been with Lilith, Asherah, Khnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khnum) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Khnum&meta=)), a male Egyptian God!, Anat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anat) (& here (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Canaanite+Goddess+-+Anat&meta=)), a Canaanite teenage war God, the Shekinah, Mary, etc). So, I think it's safe to say he's moved out of his mother's place ;)!.

Cool post, though, it has given me some things to think about :).

[David19]

:lol:

Joking aside, I don't believe the gods need offerings to be powerful. I do wonder whether there are other... energies or spirits, I guess I would call them, that will latch onto you if you give them sacrifices. Its hard for me to describe, because I personally have never sacrificed anything and never will.

I do sometimes give offerings to house spirits and such but I don't feel it gives them power.

I don't think Gods "need" offerings, sacrifices, etc to be powerful, but, some do like them, for different reasons.

For example, the Aztec Gods do expect blood, they don't "need" it, like they won't "die off" without blood (otherwise, they'd all be "starving", or "dead" since the Conquest of Mesoamerica), but, they do expect it.

Here's an article by an Aztec Recon on it:

Gods and the Experience of Blood (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/nectar.html)

Teyolia and Xochiyaoyotl: The Meaning and Purpose of Sacrifice (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/blood.html)

From the 2nd article:


To the Aztecs, the idea of sacrifice most often embodied a conscious action taken on the part of the one sacrificed. Sacrifice showed that a culture's people were willing to give of themselves for the greater good. The gods were willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of mankind. Thus, to show true devotion to the gods, the cultures of Mesoamerica were willing to sacrifice and be sacrificed to show gratitude, dedication, and love to the gods. Death on the sacrificial altar was called a "flowery death," and considered the highest honor.

From the first article:


The Aztec gods do get a rush from blood, they get a "high" from it. The "high" they get is often one of warrior aggression and intensity, though this may differ somewhat depending on the mood the deity is in and the individual deity them self. Some may mistake this aggression for anger, but it is not. However, I do find it best to offer the blood at the very end of a ritual (the blood may be let at any time, however), because they tend to want to be left alone to enjoy the rush of it. This experience of their apparent desire for and intense pleasure in blood may initially intimidate people, but it also seems to impress upon the participants the reality of the entire activity and the reality of the gods. The experience seems to be more real than the common mentality that all rituals should end with something like a cosmic hug from the gods.

So, the Aztec Gods like blood, but, they don't "need" it, and, IMO, it goes for any sacrifice, or most/any Gods, IMO, some Gods might like certain sacrifices (whether it's human blood, animals, flowers, artwork, jewelry, etc), but, IMO, they don't "need" them.

Maybe there are some entities that do feed off sacrifices, blood, etc, and/or draw power from them, I don't know. Maybe there are entities that feed off energy, like misery, anger, sadness, etc, and, maybe, the help organise some of things that go on in the world, so they can have more "food"/energy, but, IMO, I don't think Gods need sacrifices, or "feed off energy", etc.

Hope that made some sense :).

[Heart of All]

My sister (who is a Mayan expert of sorts. As much of an expert as one can be and still be 21), says that blood for the Mayan gods is like water for us. We need water and the gods give it to us. The gods need blood, so we (by that I mean the Mayans) give it to them.

I think that's an interesting way of looking at it, and does suggest that the gods need sacrifice in order to remain powerful. Perhaps some gods are reliant on the sacrifices of humans and other simply like them?

[David19]

My sister (who is a Mayan expert of sorts. As much of an expert as one can be and still be 21), says that blood for the Mayan gods is like water for us. We need water and the gods give it to us. The gods need blood, so we (by that I mean the Mayans) give it to them.

I think that's an interesting way of looking at it, and does suggest that the gods need sacrifice in order to remain powerful. Perhaps some gods are reliant on the sacrifices of humans and other simply like them?

That's interesting, I don't know too much about the Mayan Gods, so I can't say whether they need blood, like we need water. There is a book that's at my uni library called 'The Blood of Kings: Dynasty and Ritual in Maya Art' by Linda Schele, Mary Ellen Miller and Justin Kerr (http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Kings-Dynasty-Ritual-Maya/dp/0807612782), which, IMO, is very cool, and, from what some Aztec Recons tell me, the author(s) know their stuff, I had it out but had to return it 'cause I had some fines at my uni library to pay off, but, I'll, probably, get it out again, maybe this week, so I'll see if that says anything.

Or, I'll ask some Aztec Recons I know (online), they're usually pretty knowledgable about some things relating to the Mayan religion and Gods (not everything, as the Mayan religion and Gods are quite different to the Aztec religion and Gods). I'll post the reply I get :).

It could be that some Gods, and/or beings, do need blood, while other Gods, and/or beings, just like them, and could live without them. It's interesting to think about.

[Heart of All]

Everything by Linda Schele is very outdated in terms of Mayan study. Her scholarship is not particularly honest because she made too much out of her assumption that the ancient Maya were much like the modern Maya.

Plus the Mayan written language was only cracked VERY recently, so with the Mayans, you want to read things that were published as recently as possible.

[Crysiira]

My personal beliefs on gods are very different than most, so I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but here's my take on it.

Gods are a human construct. I believe there may have once been an ultimate creator spirit(s), that poked and prodded here and there to convice the world to develop the way that it did. Whether that god is still around, or in any way involved in our daily lives, I have my doubts. If it is around, its movements are so subtle that I don't think we could ever really know it in the way that, say, Christians claim to have a relationship with their god.

BUT... I do believe in natural spirits that have developed along with the world. I believe that when mankind had need for gods, those natural spirits filled that need. I believe that they are changeable. When the majority of people stopped worshipping a specific god, the spirit that filled that need went on to do something else - filled a need elsewhere. That's not to say they won't answer if they hear their old name called somewhere.

Spirits, Gods, what's the difference, right? A god, though, from what I can tell, is something locked into place. YHWH, Odin, Brighid - they all have specific personality traits assigned to them by groups of people. A spirit is more shifting and flowing, malleable. It can change depending on its own needs.

I'm an animist of a sort as well. I think there are spirits everywhere, in everything. Not only in nature, but in some man-made things as well. It depends on the energy put into it, really. Think about the energies we put into our computers. We plead when they don't work, make offerings, get on our knees in extreme cases! We may not think of a God of Computers, but with all that devotion put towards them, I have no doubt there is a spirit filling that need.

It's a symbiotic relationship, really. We need them (at least those of us who do feel the need for gods, I know not all do) and they need us, to an extent. If we stop needing them, they'll eventually go where they ARE needed. Do they die if they can't find a place? I don't think so; at least not in the way we think of "death." And not all spirits find interactions with humans a necessity, either, I think, maybe. I'm still not completely decided on this train of thought, but it seems to me that there are some minor spirits who do their own thing independently of humans. But will they turn down offerings? Certainly not.

And that's my long, rambling insert to this conversation.

[Phoenix Blue]

She said that all of the talented pagan magical practitioners are moving away from Paganism to more African based paths because they are supposedly more powerful.
Yeah, she's full of it.

[David19]

Everything by Linda Schele is very outdated in terms of Mayan study. Her scholarship is not particularly honest because she made too much out of her assumption that the ancient Maya were much like the modern Maya.

Plus the Mayan written language was only cracked VERY recently, so with the Mayans, you want to read things that were published as recently as possible.

Thanks, although, one Aztec Recon seemed to recommend it, I'll have to ask again. Although, I still might get the book out anyway, it has some quite cool pics, and, that's the reason I like it.

If you don't mind, do you, or even your sister, know of any good books on the Mayans (religion, culture, beliefs, etc), I'd really love to know? :).

[Heart of All]

This is what she says:

"The Maya" by Robert Sharer is a good book.
Michael Koe is a good author.
"Scribes, Warriors, and Kings" by William L. Fash is a good book, but it's only about Copan, not the Maya in general--she studied at Copan.

[David19]

This is what she says:

"The Maya" by Robert Sharer is a good book.
Michael Koe is a good author.
"Scribes, Warriors, and Kings" by William L. Fash is a good book, but it's only about Copan, not the Maya in general--she studied at Copan.

Thanks for those :).

[notluad666]

i agree wit the guy who said that the gods have their own life living in seperate realms.:crown:

[cliffcozzens]

as pagans we tend to bash the christian faith by calling there god feeble or lesser than our own right? and by doing so we take away the power that deity has in our life. any god goddess you worship you give power to. it dose not matter how old the deity is and how long it has gone without "food" when you give attributes to a deity you are assigning it power over yourself. the more energy you give it the more present it is in your mind and so it would appear that it is making a larger impact in your daily life. many people who practice ceremonial magic create deities and work with them. there deities are just as powerful as any other god/goddess. but yes the more people who respond to a deity image with cretin thought forms attached to them do create a more powerful godhead. and when two people argue about what a cretin god can and can not do they weaken there own image of the god and therefor weaken the god respectively. we as pagans,witches, shamans,etc. control our world and our realities and as such masters we can choose to be the supreme force or not. what god you worship and where its from and how much energy is all your choice.

[phathead]

Well, I don't know about the talented moving to African based paths.....there are some untalented and unscrupulous people in African paths just like every other group humans participate in. Of course,there are some awesomely talented people who are all about helping their community too. What I can offer, as my entire immediate family is living in the Lukumi tradition (Afro-Cuban), is that it is really about energy as much as sacrifice. The Eje, or blood, that is offered is viewed as sacrificing up the vital life force back to the spirits, whether they be Loas, Orishas or ancestors, which is why it is the most powerful, reserved as a last resort or initiation,etc. They sustain us and provide what we need in life; health, offspring,wisdom,prosperity,etc. We strengthen that connection by offerings of prayer and respect, fruits and foods,drink, blood,etc. It doesn't really matter what path you are talking about, but it does need to be based on ritual procedures, the intent must be right, divination to make sure all is coorect, washing, consecrating, feeding, presenting,etc. It is just as much for our side of the energy transferrance equation as theirs.

[aluokaloo]

My personal opinion, and I'm not trying to knock anyone else's path, is that the Gods are more powerful than we are. I think the Gods are able to interact with anything and anyone they wish, at any time, regardless of what offerings are given to them and how many people perform X ritual, Y prayer or Z sacrifice. I think Gods exist separately from humans and are not created by human religious or spiritual activity. Only my opinion though - I fully understand that a lot of people disagree.

i agree with this interpretation.


i also wouldn't worry about her, or where she's getting her sources. however, i don't feel it's disrespectful to see deities as enormous thougtforms. we all have a right to view the divine or lack of in our own ways.:uhhuhuh:

[IanCorrigan]

...do you think that she has a point? Are the Gods massive thought forms? Are offerings more than a way for one to gain a spirits attention? Do offerings give the spirits the strength and the ability to interact in our world in any way? So what are your thoughts?

In the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, where the story of Hades and Persephone is told, we hear that when Demeter, in her sorrow, caused crops to fail that humans were unable to sacrifice, and so the Gods became weak and hungry. I think the ancients plainly said that the Gods depend on our sacrifices (until certain spiritualizing Greek philosophers began to find that too 'polluted' by material existence...). This has little to do with 'thoughtforms' and more to do with understanding the Gods as limited, specific beings with real needs - you know, real things. Infinite, all-powerful things don't, to my knowledge, exist.

Fortunately, a number of modern Pagans have returned to sacrificing to the European gods, setting meals for them, etc. As long as the gods don't mind being mainly vegetarian this time, they're getting more to eat than previously. I expect to continue to see their presence and power grow, as it has since magicians first began 'invoking' them again in the late 19th century.

I think the world is built on relationships, and relationship only happens when two parties have something to offer. We offer to the Gods, and the Gods bless us. That's how Pagan religion worked in the old days, and how it still works in tribal polytheisms today.

[IndigoRising]

what a lovely topic!!

okay, I am a practicing pagan and I am VERY ecclectic. I draw from and worship deities of many varied Pantheons and Traditions.. I too have felt the Draw to study more into some of the African based faiths.. I do not attribute this to a waxing or Waning of power in any particular pantheon. but more to the Fact that sometimes the Deities just reach out and smack you.. as was my recent case and the start of my recent studies.. This has in NO WAY supperceded my worshipping of the other Deities that are part of my life. Instead I find it a diverisifcation that adds freedom.. Often we contrain oursleves with notions that we have to follow a specific group or path completely.. my personal opinion is to do such when other things Call you as well is akin to putting on blinders and earmuffs. I do not nessacarily beleive that the Power of the Deities is related to how many worshippers there are.. I think that the more worshippers they have the more attention they might pay however. They have their own existances and Games of chess going on after all.. But think.. if you had one tiny voice calling you for attention while you were busy would it catch your attentions more or would 3000 voices calling?