Does being part of the group impede your growth?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Does being part of the group impede your spiritual growth? Does it in essence stifle the greater call of spirit that may call one into the wilderness to journey or scourge the body? To raise one above the day to day spiritual?

I realize it probably sounds rather strange to think about. That said, if one looks to many great spiritual leaders or prophets it seems that they have elevated themselves above and beyond the grouping from which they sprang. Not only elevated or removed but in many instances experienced some enlightening event brought on by some spiritual journey into the wilderness. Wilderness maybe a true wilderness or a retreat from the mundane or daily calling.

I am not referring to the traditional shamantic type journey. But the journey that touches upon spiritual, physical, dedication and pushing the physical barriers.

In many instances it was only when they grew beyond the grouping and searched did they become their greater self. In Christianity we see retreating into the desert. In many American Indian groups we see the Vision Quest. While there may be a assistant or guide on the journey, most involves a singular retreat and exploration. Simply man / woman and spirit upon the wilderness.

Yet, if one looks at much of the pagan movement and structure it seems the group is acknowledged over and above the individual. In many ways it seems the old order of Family Tradition, Coven, Blot, Congregation, etc is stressed over individual growth. Literally, to the point where one may grow only to a certain extent then growth is halted. Though continuation may seem given by changing the angles upon which a thing is looked upon.

[Faol-chù]

Does being part of the group impede your spiritual growth? Does it in essence stifle the greater call of spirit that may call one into the wilderness to journey or scourge the body? To raise one above the day to day spiritual?
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I think it can, but not all the time.-
I think there are times when we need interaction of those who have SIMILAR ideas in order to "grow".-
I also think that there are times when "the group" needs our influence, in order for themselves to "grow". -
I think we also "grow" by realizing how we can impact others (both for the positive and for the negative), through our own influence.-
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I do not think that "spirituality" is, in any way, all about the INDIVIDUAL.

[BlackMagicalCat]

I realize it probably sounds rather strange to think about. That said, if one looks to many great spiritual leaders or prophets it seems that they have elevated themselves above and beyond the grouping from which they sprang. Not only elevated or removed but in many instances experienced some enlightening event brought on by some spiritual journey into the wilderness. Wilderness maybe a true wilderness or a retreat from the mundane or daily calling.



What you said here doesnt apply to some faiths,,like christianity,,you dont elevate yourself,,you do the oposite,,and humble yourself,,and God lifts you up and calls you when you get your-self-out of his way,,then you can become a vessel which can be used to honor him.

Other faiths are the same somewhat,,you empty yourself.

And for all those great spiritual leaders who have been enlightened,,they need to get together one day,,,,because,,,,,they all say something different to us,,and they cant agree on what is truth.Three people go to the desert to seek the divine,,one returns and declares Allah is God,,and there is no other,,the other declares,,Jehovah is God,,and there is no other,,the third one says,,,they are all the same,,,,,so the other two kill him for insulting thier god.(this is a parable)

So much for man being so enlightened.

I would rather trust the wisdom of a child,,than to put my trust in the so called wisdom of the so called enlightened of our times.

[aluokaloo]

i've never been part of a spiritual group before. but i think it would be alot like all groups, whether we're talking about a group for a school science project, co-workers, or a family get together. i'm sure it all depends on group dynamics, in some cases there may alot of in-fighting, slackers, self-important puffed asses,n those who get shunted aside, etc etc, in other cases ther will be groups who work, they will and can probably shift easily to accomodate growing changes within the group as well as newcomers, allow noone to become more important allow no one to become ignored, take all ideas into consideration, and work in essence much like a wolf pack .it also depends on the individual in some cases people prefer to work alone. i personally feel i would be stifled by a group, so other then mw i personally never felt the need to join a coven or whatever.

[brymble]

I think that being part of a group is a stage of spiritual growth, as is either moving beyond group practice, or into a leadership role.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

brymble wrote:



I think that being part of a group is a stage of spiritual growth


I agree. I think being part of a group is insturmental at certain stages of ones growth. It is really important I think at the stage when one is forming thier concept and idea's of what is and is not in ref to their spiritual and religious foundations.

Not to say the group will create what is correct and right but the multiple opinions and positions can provide the soil upon which it can grow and evolve. Perhaps even provide the counter balance of opinions that help refine our own individual positions.

But I do think it can also get to the point where there is no more growth only stagnation. Basically, when one has reached the point where the group no longer provides for the continued growth of the individual.

Of course it could also mean that the individual has reached the point where they must seek other groupings or inspirations.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

aluokaloo wrote:



... but i think it would be alot like all groups ...


To some extent I agree with what your saying. The working dynamics of the group and the personality of the group can and does have a great impact upon the group workings.

I think if the group is balanced it can provide the support up to a certain point. Yes, the group will still experience the "Group Struggle" that takes place in operation, but then again balance comes into play.

But what happens when the group no longer meets your needs? If one tries to remain part of the group then the group fails them for it does not proved that which they need.

However, that is not exactly what I was speaking of in my initial posting. What I was thinking about was most groups I have been associated with have not had a concept of the individual beyond their imporatance to the group. Yes there is the development of the individual versus their importance to the group and its development but little of the groups support of the indiviudual development.

In many ways the Shamantic groups seem to support the concept of the journey and quest as individuals to seek spirit or religion. The individual turns to nature or journey to find part of themsleves that can not be developed inside the group. Yet the group also realizes the development of the indiviudal is critical to the awareness of the group.

Thus it becomes I am more aware of self and placement so I become more aware of my place in the group and landscape. When I am more aware of self I can be of greater help to the group or society.

Sorry, trying to get this into words that convey what I'm trying to say is not so easy it seems.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

azzeenasman wrote:



What you said here doesnt apply to some faiths,,like christianity,,you dont elevate yourself,,you do the oposite,,and humble yourself,,and God lifts you up and calls you when you get your-self-out of his way,,then you can become a vessel which can be used to honor him.



But elavation becomes dependent upon ones perspective. To some piety is the base form of elevating oneself before the eyes of their creator. But I also see what your getting at as well.

I think part of it boils down to one's desire or motive to "get your self out of the way". I will admit the method is driven by the spiritual pathway one is walking at the time.

Where I think we fail is in our understanding of what is conveyed to us in our journey and or vision quest. Yet perhaps that is one of the advantages of the group when we can speak to them and not trust to our own humanity only.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Faol-chù wrote:



I do not think that "spirituality" is, in any way, all about the INDIVIDUAL


This may sound contrary but I agree yet disagree with this. Our spiritual worth is more than just ourselves and our opinon of that. I think the means and ways in which we interact with others is an intergral part of that Spirituality.

Yet I also think it individual in the manner in which it touches and inspires or changes us. I think it individual in the manner in which it comforts or supports my concept of self worth and importance to the greater scheme of my life and the influences upon it.

But here perhaps my initial question was to narrow for it fails to consider the concept of groups within groups and the dynamic attachments each holds upon us.

[Glowy]

I have been alone for most of my journey. I have made friends here that have helped me along, and I am now part of a long distance group. I am learning a lot of fifferent ways to go about things.

For me it is " Oh, I did not look at this from this perspective"

It is rather refreshing

[aluokaloo]

-
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I think it can, but not all the time.-
I think there are times when we need interaction of those who have SIMILAR ideas in order to "grow".-
I also think that there are times when "the group" needs our influence, in order for themselves to "grow". -
I think we also "grow" by realizing how we can impact others (both for the positive and for the negative), through our own influence.-
-
I do not think that "spirituality" is, in any way, all about the INDIVIDUAL.

I agree and disagree and to this Kipling put it best and I quote:


"As the creeper that girdles the treetrunk
The Law runneth forward and back
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf
and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."

Unquote

[Shawn Cameron]

I think that being part of a group is a stage of spiritual growth, as is either moving beyond group practice, or into a leadership role.

I agree with this completely.

There are two sides to everything and everyone; everyone holds a part of both sides, The Yin Yong theory perhaps. A relevant example of this is the inverted and extraverted personalities. Though one person may be primarily inverted, and therefore be more conferrable learning on their own or with a few very close and conferrable friends, there is a small part of them that is also extraverted. And in my opinion, in order to truly grow and to rise above what you are naturally you must know yourself more completely which often means feeding and going along with this smaller side of you in order to learn its lessons.

Many of these spiritual leaders you speak of did just that. They started in a group, and even the culture of the time was centered around community, being on ones own was simply too dangerous or just unheard of, it was what they knew and where conferrable with. It was only when they moved beyond that a learned on their own did they realize more about themselves and bring out not only their natural strength but the “hidden” one as well. And it was then that they could return to the group and lead and teach it of all they had discovered.

This also works the other way however, people who learn best alone and stay away from groups, should, in my opinion. Try and join a group if only for a time, to learn how they respond, react, and fit into a group situation as well as to learn what ever the group may know that they may not. And the reason we don’t hear of these people except perhaps in stories? They are still loaners at heart and though they may teach a few close friends they do not stay in the group and thus rarely enter the history books.

In conclusion… someone who dose not often journey in the wilderness would learn most from said journey, but someone who often finds him/herself alone in the wild would do best to spend some time in the city.

[cheddarsox]

Excellent discussion. I am pretty used up by another one I've just posted deeply about, so I'll keep it short and sweet here...but I do want to contribute.

One of the ongoing challenges of humanity (or that of any social animal) is that between the individual and the group. We cannot survive without our group. We are not born self sufficient. But we have individual need, desires, talents, etc as well.

Whatever we learn or achieve on our own, must somehow "mesh" with our lives in society. We do "owe" society...our input. We do. So, if we have a mountaintop experience, and cannot integrate it in any way with our life as part of society, what good is it?

How true can it be if it does not "work" when we are part of a group? So I think we need both, because we are both individuals and members of a group. We need our alone experiences and our interactions with other to show us who we are, and to test our spiritual discoveries.

Otherwise, it's like spiritual masturbation, it may feel good, but it's not contributing to society. The point of sexual pleasure is, ultimately to contribute genetic material to the group. The point of spirituality is to contribute a deeper seeing, more functional and informed member to society.

If your spiritual alone times bring you wisdom, find a way to share it. If they bring you patience, then be patient with others, if all they seem to do is make you want to be alone more and more and not serve within society (not just a spiritual group, but society at large) I think it's a red flag.

Sometimes a spiritual group can hold a person back from spiritual growth, there may be dynamics in the group that keep one from moving forward in certain ways. Again, that challenge there, as in all other areas of life is to find a way to work both the individual and societal aspects of it. Sometimes you need to steer the group in a fresh direction, or, if it is serving other, you may need to leave for a different group, or a time away from a spiritual group.

But I think if you get to a point where you are feeling, these people are holding me down, I'm WAY more spiritually adept than the average joe, I'm outta here and I'm not gonna let anyone else hold me down...you should rethink it.

Because even the things that hold you down have much to teach you, and the people in a group have stories to tell that you may need to hear. I learn from things, people, situations that are not as "smart" as I think I am, all the time.

We do need groups. Even the wisest need their peeps, we have so much to learn from one another and from one another's experience. It can be as complex as finding a spiritual mentor to as simple as needing a ride to work when our car breaks down, but we need people and...don't forget the flip side, they need us. To be who we are, contributing as we do, to their lives.

[RainInanna]

Yet, if one looks at much of the pagan movement and structure it seems the group is acknowledged over and above the individual.

Really? The thing I've noticed about so many discussions here, at least as it pertains to Wicca anyway, is that more often than not people refuse to acknowledge the benefits of being in a coven. More often than not, people see "elder" as a term that implies arrogance and a person to be avoided rather than a label for someone who is there to help someone on their journey. And, again in my experience, in a coven invariably people are told to practice alone because it is as necessary as practicing with the group.

I think more often than not being in a group helps one grow. After all, there are experiences you can only have with someone else, in relationships, communication, and connections. In a group there are others to reinforce what you experience, to provide different perspectives, and to help guide you on a path they've already walked.

Spiritual leaders usually have a following and don't work alone. And if they do, my guess is that they just grew before their companions did. I don't think it means being alone is better for growth, simply that they've grown enough that they stand out from others in their group.

[Faol-chù]

by MonSno...-
This may sound contrary but I agree yet disagree with this. Our spiritual worth is more than just ourselves and our opinon of that. I think the means and ways in which we interact with others is an intergral part of that Spirituality.
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by aluokaloo...-
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I agree and disagree and to this Kipling put it best and I quote:


"As the creeper that girdles the treetrunk
The Law runneth forward and back
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf
and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack." -
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Take note that I said...
I do not think that "spirituality" is, in any way, all about the INDIVIDUAL .-
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Notice the "all"...I do think it is PARTIALLY about the individual...:toofless:

[aluokaloo]

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-[/COLOR]
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Take note that I said...-
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Notice the "all"...I do think it is PARTIALLY about the individual...:toofless:

ah. my mistake i read it wrong. i thought you said at all.:weirdsmil

[Jenett]

I think more often than not being in a group helps one grow. After all, there are experiences you can only have with someone else, in relationships, communication, and connections. In a group there are others to reinforce what you experience, to provide different perspectives, and to help guide you on a path they've already walked.

I have to agree with this. I'd also add to it that other people have other directions they're interested in. A lot of what I get out of group work is that I'm challenged to try new approaches and topics and interests that, left to my own devices, I would not explore nearly as often. (I might get around to them, but they'd be further down a long list of interests, often.)

Group work forces those interests higher up the list, and simultaneously provides me with a resource for talking about them and why they're interesting, and what it means for what we're doing together.

[Skatha]

I think it all has to do with the individual. Some people enjoy the freedom of working totally alone. Others take pride and comfort in working with a group. It depends on the direction that the individual is going, how dedicated they are to a specific path, how open they are to group learning, and whether or not they are willing to bend with the changing needs and interests of others. There are pros and cons to both solitary and group work. Both are perfectly valid ways of experiencing Spirituality. It's up to the individual to decide what would be best for her/his soul journey.

[RainInanna]

Yes. What I would value in a group especially is someone who's "been there, done that" for their own path and even in helping others. They might be able to say "you should practice this technique and that technique, and you might want to think about this and that to add to your rituals". They have already seen inter-group communication and conflicts and can help mediate. They can provide not only the benefit of experience but simply a different perspective and idea that I wouldn't think of otherwise.

If I were to stop growing as an individual within a group, IMHO, that would be my own responsibility.

[Windsmith]

When I was first starting out, the situation was exactly the opposite: working on my own was impeding my growth, because I was wandering around undirected and had no idea what I was doing or what to do next. I kept reading book after book that were essentially the same 101 book with different covers. I didn't know how to grow.

The group I've worked with on and off for many years was a true gift to me in those early days. They showed me what was beyond the 101 books; they taught me how to focus and deepen my spirituality. In time, they helped me grow enough to break away.

I work periodically with a different group now. I think, if that was the only work I did, it would be pretty limiting. But I also do my own work on my own time. And I think that if that were my only work, it would also be limiting. The 2 balance each other out well. If I only had the group, I would feel compelled to conform to its needs only and never explore anything new for myself. But without the group to challenge the practices, beliefs, and ideas I come up with on my own, I might think I was growing but really just be so in love with my own cleverness that I couldn't see I was just moving from rut to rut to be stuck in.

[Skatha]

I've come to a place in my path now where I feel comfortable working both with a group and by myself. I seek out knowledge and experience on my own, as well as through the experiences of others. Some lessons are better learned alone. Others need to be learned through eachother. I believe that the Gods decide how each life lesson and experience will be administered, and I've come to trust in that.

[Fencai]

I've come to a place in my path now where I feel comfortable working both with a group and by myself. I seek out knowledge and experience on my own, as well as through the experiences of others. Some lessons are better learned alone. Others need to be learned through eachother. I believe that the Gods decide how each life lesson and experience will be administered, and I've come to trust in that.

I couldnt have said it better!

There have been times when learning in a group worked wonders, and times that it was better for me to learn on my own.
one thing that always worked was listening to the Divine message on which way to turn.

[Zephyrstorm]

Does being part of the group impede your spiritual growth? Does it in essence stifle the greater call of spirit that may call one into the wilderness to journey or scourge the body? To raise one above the day to day spiritual?

I realize it probably sounds rather strange to think about. That said, if one looks to many great spiritual leaders or prophets it seems that they have elevated themselves above and beyond the grouping from which they sprang. Not only elevated or removed but in many instances experienced some enlightening event brought on by some spiritual journey into the wilderness. Wilderness maybe a true wilderness or a retreat from the mundane or daily calling.

I am not referring to the traditional shamantic type journey. But the journey that touches upon spiritual, physical, dedication and pushing the physical barriers.

In many instances it was only when they grew beyond the grouping and searched did they become their greater self. In Christianity we see retreating into the desert. In many American Indian groups we see the Vision Quest. While there may be a assistant or guide on the journey, most involves a singular retreat and exploration. Simply man / woman and spirit upon the wilderness.

Yet, if one looks at much of the pagan movement and structure it seems the group is acknowledged over and above the individual. In many ways it seems the old order of Family Tradition, Coven, Blot, Congregation, etc is stressed over individual growth. Literally, to the point where one may grow only to a certain extent then growth is halted. Though continuation may seem given by changing the angles upon which a thing is looked upon.



Can a group inhibit a person's growth? sure, it can.

Really, it depends on the group in question, the dynamics involved, and the people at hand. I believe that whether in a group or alone, it is our responsibility as individuals to do work on our own that contributes to our growth.

The group can actually do a lot to help a person with that endeavor, as they can serve as a means of grounding their experiences in reality, as a source of other opinions and as a means of getting new insight when, inevitably, one's path feels like it has stalled.

All of those benefits hinge on one major thing - that the group is healthy, which can be a challenge to find.

I think that the emphasis on group work exists in the Pagan community not as a means of keeping the individuals in check so much as because when one first starts off, it helps to have others to show you the ropes, before you go out there without the net, so to speak.

Some of us later find out that we do just fine wandering the circus by ourselves. And others find out that they need a friend or 12 with them, just in case a clown happens by. :weirdsmil

I hope that made sense.

[Rilasciato]

I have never been part of a spiritual group. My Family Tradition was passed onto me by my Grandmother, as my mother died when I was younger.

Grandmother, or "Nonni" as we called her, was a wonderful teacher and when she passed on it left me as the last surviving member of a Family Tradition that dates back several hundred years.

Where I live there exists no Pagan community anywhere near here. Most of the people around here would burn a Witch if they thought they could get away with it. Same goes for hanging a "Negro"

I am in hopes that one of my four children will embrace their heritage, and perhaps that could be the re-birth of our boschetto, which at one time, had upwards of twenty members. That was back in the middle 1800's. By the turn of the century to the 1900's, it was down to about half that. In 1921 there were only four left, including my grandmother. Benito Mussolini took control over Italy and Sicily and my Grandmother was the only one to escape to the United States. The rest were lost.

[David19]

When I was first starting out, the situation was exactly the opposite: working on my own was impeding my growth, because I was wandering around undirected and had no idea what I was doing or what to do next. I kept reading book after book that were essentially the same 101 book with different covers. I didn't know how to grow.

The group I've worked with on and off for many years was a true gift to me in those early days. They showed me what was beyond the 101 books; they taught me how to focus and deepen my spirituality. In time, they helped me grow enough to break away.

I work periodically with a different group now. I think, if that was the only work I did, it would be pretty limiting. But I also do my own work on my own time. And I think that if that were my only work, it would also be limiting. The 2 balance each other out well. If I only had the group, I would feel compelled to conform to its needs only and never explore anything new for myself. But without the group to challenge the practices, beliefs, and ideas I come up with on my own, I might think I was growing but really just be so in love with my own cleverness that I couldn't see I was just moving from rut to rut to be stuck in.

I'm similar to you, although I haven't really joined a group, but, before I was just, basically, wandering around, liking different religions, but, no idea what one to choose, looking at Pagan, occult, etc books in the shops, etc, which were all, basically, the same, etc. Then I managed to get some direction in my life by getting to know, and talking to, the owner of the Temple of Sumer (http://templeofsumer.org/), talking to other recons, etc. That helped give me more direction in my religious life (I still am interested in learning more about different religions, though). Although, magically speaking, I'd say I'm learning more on my own, as different groups (online), etc, don't really help me that much (nothing to do with them, but, I guess, we're just too different).

Hope that made some sense :).

[David19]

I have never been part of a spiritual group. My Family Tradition was passed onto me by my Grandmother, as my mother died when I was younger.

Grandmother, or "Nonni" as we called her, was a wonderful teacher and when she passed on it left me as the last surviving member of a Family Tradition that dates back several hundred years.

Where I live there exists no Pagan community anywhere near here. Most of the people around here would burn a Witch if they thought they could get away with it. Same goes for hanging a "Negro"

I am in hopes that one of my four children will embrace their heritage, and perhaps that could be the re-birth of our boschetto, which at one time, had upwards of twenty members. That was back in the middle 1800's. By the turn of the century to the 1900's, it was down to about half that. In 1921 there were only four left, including my grandmother. Benito Mussolini took control over Italy and Sicily and my Grandmother was the only one to escape to the United States. The rest were lost.

Just wanted to say sorry about what happened to your family, and I hope your tradition lives on :hugz: :).

[Rilasciato]

Just wanted to say sorry about what happened to your family, and I hope your tradition lives on :hugz: :).
Thanks, David. If it is meant to be, it will. I appreciate the sentiment, my friend.

[David19]

Thanks, David. If it is meant to be, it will. I appreciate the sentiment, my friend.

No problem, hopefully, one, or more, of your kids will want to carry on your tradition, or, maybe, even grandchildren (when you get some (unless you have some already?)). Good luck :).

[Solya]

I tend to mix being alone and being part of a group. Usually, I work on my own and also study on my own. It is something I love to do because it allows me to focus on what's really important for me as a person. Yet I also sometimes work in a group setting because I have been asked to teach others certain things about my path. I wouldn't say that it restricts my individual growth, because I learn a lot from it, but I am always pleased when I can go my separate way again. I am still a 'focus point' for quite a few young pagans despite my greater need of being alone and working on my own.

In essence, I focus on a group when I have no idea what I need to do next. Talking and working with others in a group setting helps me regain my balance so I can continue to work individually again. I learn better individually, but there's a lot of value in having someone to bounce ideas off of.