Advanced Paganism?

[PrincessKLS]

What does that mean?

[Louisvillian]

Getting past the basics to more complex issues and aspects of practice and theory in pagan religions as they are practised in modern time.

[RubyRose]

What Louis said.

[~Elise~]

What does that mean?

Funny...I thought the first sentence of the forum description at the top of the every page kinda says it all:


This forum is for advancing Pagans to discuss ways to expand their knowledge beyond the basics.


JMO, however.

[David19]

Getting past the basics to more complex issues and aspects of practice and theory in pagan religions as they are practised in modern time.


What Louis said.


Funny...I thought the first sentence of the forum description at the top of the every page kinda says it all:


JMO, however.

What the others said, going beyond the basics.

[Lunacie]

What does that mean?

If you browse through a few of the threads here, you should be able to get an idea of what this is all about.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think the term "advanced" is often a misnomer for what things are. To me, I think of it in terms of "Am I a jack of all trades or a master of one?" Though to some extent one might even use the concept of a master of none.

One could almost compare it to the structure of schooling in the US. We start out in a grade level that teaches us basic sounds, shapes and word meanings. After we get a good grasp on it new concepts are introduced to us that start showing us how to format our words and thoughs. New descritpions are introduced to help us understand our place in the world and relationship to others as well.

Yet through out all of this we are still basic in nature. Each componet is a critical part of the puzzle to instil a certain amount of knowledge in us. In this concept it takes up to 12 years to finish this development of Basic level knowledge.

At graduation we are jacks of knowledge with no mastery of any of it. Yes we may have a calling to one field of study over another, even an apptitude towards physical over mental, etc.

At that point we chose to begin our intermediate level of training. That choice that will start us upon a given skill or calling. To become better at it we focus upon the broader concept of it that is beyond what we learnt in school. We become teachers, carpenters, fliers, etc.

More schooling and study. Some under the guidance of a group of peers, some individual, some one on one.

Yet this is where the misnomer concept comes in for as we go from intermediate to advanced to master our support groups weaken for they can only guide us so far. I find we also tend to specialize in a given area vice having a more precise global view.

More and more of our learning is harder to deveolpe within the group for it may not align to our particular "Facet" of exploration. Concepts become harder to convey to others for their are fewer and fewer that practice the specific pathway that we have settled on.

Many times the drive to advance comes from within not from without. Think about it, their are millions that can tell you about the Earth, thousands that know about the rocks that made the dirt, hundreds that can you about the three different types of rocks, tens that can speak of the process use to make each type of rock, and just singles that can give the exact chemical process taking place.

The problem with anything advanced is by what guage or meter do you determine what is advanced? I may be a master of music and under stand the power of energy within the music but be a novice when speaking to one who looks to the usuage of some minor facet of it.

To become advanced is to become specialized. To become specialized is to narrow your concentration of study upon a given area of expertise. To become an expert is to have a base knowledge founded in the componets that affect / effect what you do and in many instances the ability to look beyond and see what could possibly happen and what the probale outcomes are and how it affects / effects the results.

But like I said you reach a point where the group can no longer inspire for you are beyond their level of experties and must push forward on your own.

Please don't take this wrong but if you are asking what is advanced then you have not advanced in the broader field to the point where you can see the edges. To the point where 1 plus 1 equals something other than 2.

[RainInanna]

Ok let's expand the discussion

1. Basics of what? Tarot, runes, astrology, mythology, personal practice? Anything? Just choosing specialties, or getting proficient in them?

2. Does advanced depend on the type of Paganism - ie. if it's relating to polytheism, is devotion to specific deities advanced? Aspecting? Drawing down the moon? Where does working with gods fit in basic to advanced, and what about a Pagan who does work with deities versus one who doesn't?

3. Who decides what's basic and what's advanced? How is it decided? Length of time practiced, efficiency with the tools (such as divination and runes), experiences that suggest work with deity is being noticed and responded to (ie. having god return your prayers, acknowledge your worship, or even talk to you?)?

I'm just wondering if advanced can be more complex than "past the basics", and also, how we define what the basics are.

[Solya]

I always saw "advanced" as a way of going more in-depth concerning certain topics of interest. This could be related to specific subjects like divination or celebrations, but also to (worship of/working with) deities and magic. We all seek focal points in our training and 'going advanced' always meant that I would involve myself in something far more challenging. It's like going to college/university after having been to secondary school.

[Xentor]

"Advanced", as in, I've been doing this for years, I know the lore and the traditions, and I want input from others equally experienced to improve or figure things out.

[RainInanna]

I want input from others equally experienced to improve or figure things out.

Ah, what an interesting idea compared to the other advanced thread. I agree. (in the other thread people draw a line from being advanced to being lonely or alone).

I find the more "spiritually mature" I am, the less likely I am to be defensive about others disagreeing, and the more I'm likely to seek out others equally experienced or more experienced to listen to, learn from, or just share experiences with.

[David19]

"Advanced", as in, I've been doing this for years, I know the lore and the traditions, and I want input from others equally experienced to improve or figure things out.


Ah, what an interesting idea compared to the other advanced thread. I agree. (in the other thread people draw a line from being advanced to being lonely or alone).

I find the more "spiritually mature" I am, the less likely I am to be defensive about others disagreeing, and the more I'm likely to seek out others equally experienced or more experienced to listen to, learn from, or just share experiences with.

I like your definitions, I'm definitely not advanced yet, but, I do agree with those definitions.

[Solya]

So, what is 'being advanced'?

I personally gathered it's not about how many years you've spent in practicing and studying pagan and spiritual stuff. Many people seem to think that one's age and the length in time of study and practice means much more than what one does with it. Sure, somebody's age and the amount of time one's spent in pagan and spiritual mindsets have something to do with how 'advanced' somebody seems to be. Yet I hardly think that that's everything.

So, is it then about one's specialities? I've got quite a lot of all-round experience going on, I think, but I focused on specific subjects from about the age of 15 onwards. I'm well-versed in my own 'specialities', but I don't think they make me more advanced as a pagan. Other people have specialised in subjects I know nothing about, so everything's kept in balance for me by adopting the mindset that I need others in order to get the 'full picture' of things.

To me, the basics of paganism are things like knowing the general context and history of something. Basics are about being able to put practices into specific contexts and about being able to see why certain deities behave differently from others. It's about figuring out if divination is your cup of tea or not. And it's about testing your own abilities in whatever field and checking out who you are as a person. In essence, 'the basics' can be described as the period of trial and error before you arrive at a place of more certainty.

Advancement from those basics seems to welcome a 'calmer' period in life. The things I feel I know the basics from are things I no longer intensely focus on for longer periods of time, but choose to deepen my knowledge of from time to time instead. Advancing in my knowledge of the basics also means I'm more inclined to dive into the how/what/why of the way things really work.

And one more thing... I prefer the term 'growth' to the term of 'advancement'. It just seems more natural that way.

[Lalaith]

I often see a lot of talk about becoming more advanced in use of various tools, of becoming more knowledgeable about particular deities, but something I never see (and hope to see more of soon) is a more advanced discussion of Pagan ethics.

...before anyone jumps in and says that a definition of Pagan ethics is impossible because the very understanding of who and what constitutes 'pagan' is so broad...yes, I'm aware of that :) It just seems like a rather neglected topic--it's all very well to have been practicing a given form of, say, divination for the last twenty years, but I always wonder how many people truly explore the ethical questions inherent in what they do and practice.

To sum up: in my hopeful definition of Advanced Paganism, you move beyond "here are the tools and how to use them" into "here are the tools and WHY we use them/what we use them for."

[MonSno_LeeDra]

2. Does advanced depend on the type of Paganism?

I think to some degree it does. What is established for one tradition or pathway as upper level knowledge may just be beginner for another. Yet that structure is the guage upon which advancement is determined in that particular pathway.

To use Wicca as an example one starts out as a non-initiated practioner. After a certain amount of time and training they are initiated into a 1st level degree. Over time and much more study and development they may attain a 2nd or 3rd degree level of initiation.

Even this example is speculative though for each flavor has their own requirements and steps and that may vary from coven to coven as well.
Of course one must look into the particular pathway to determine what is required for each grouping.

When one follows an individual pathway I think it probally lies to the individual practioner to determine what is advanced and what is basic. However, influences from outside may modify or encourage the inclusion or exclusion of certain items or concepts.

For instance I follow a pathway greatly aligned to Shamanistic influences so more knowledge of mother Earth is an advanced concept for me but to another just nice to know information. Advanced items for me are specifics of Geology, Biology, Anthropology, etc.

Saddly, sometimes an advanced concept may also be one developed around a given UPG one may have. It may even be developed about a theory of who a thing works though no physical proof is available to support it.

3. Who decides what's basic and what's advanced?

That one is a little harder to answer. If it is based upon an individual pathwalk then it must be the individual that decides. The individual must decide what knowledge is critical for thier development and what is just nice to know. What knowledge is found to be useful and inspires them to pursue more difficult concepts or theories.

If they follow an established pathwalk then I'd say it was whatever the collective group has decided as advanced knowledge. What requirements the group or founder has made steps to be completed before the group or founder recognizes one as being more than entry level.

I think the gods / goddess may not figure into a specific concept of paganism as much as a specific concept of spirituality within the trappings of a pagan framework.

For instance I would follow the pathwalk I am on regardless of the gods / goddess I believe in. The pathwalk I follow for me is more of a personal choice and direction upon the mortal plane. Yet my beliefs in the gods / goddess I follow is more of a personal connection between me and the greater universe.

Yes the gods / goddess may influence my perspective and outlook. They may even encourage me to become more preceise in how I do certain things. When I see a deer I can not help but think of Artemis, when I come to cross roads I think of Hecate, when the winds blow hot and dry I think of Bast.

Do they guide me, I would say yes for it is clear the places I find most comfort are in the wilds where they are associated.

But in my personal opinion one can not become advanced with regard to their god / goddes, they can only become more aware of them and connect deeper with them. The manner in which this is done may vary from person to person, as would the connection each can or does feel with thier god / goddess.

Basics of what?

This is the most difficult to answer I think.

The basic of my initial pathwalk was built around a family tradition. Those included a concept of cards, a concept of curses, an understanding of the spiritual world and the physical world, and understanding of magic and its use as defined by the family concept of its workings. Granted this is but a glimpse of the total but it gives an idea.

What became considered advanced was anything that grew beyond the initial information and concepts derived from it.

I think to some degree basic must also be seen as any informaiton that is new and is used as a basic to build upon to explore or understand a given theory or practice.

For instance I have a basic level knowledge of Greek art to include statuary, coins, pottery etc. Yet, as I explore the renderings of Artemis and Hecake upon those same items I am gaining in knowledge of those particular facets while staying at a general broader knowledge of the whole practice.

In an nut shell I think the learning of the alphabet is basic level knowledge, the ability to utilize the alphabet to convey idea and though is advanced. To know the concepts of how a things works is basic, to use it is a little higher than basic, to be proficient and confident in it is advanced.

To some extent I think advanced is to have a general working ability for the routine outcome but advanced is to have the understanding and ability to go beyond the expected norm based upon a sound level of knowledge and experience of the basics.

Sorry if this seemed to ramble.

[Shosha]

It looks like there's as many defintitions of Advanced as pagans posting to the question in the first place. :uhhuhuh:

I figure to put in my two bits:
For me, Advanced is testing my knowledge, my beliefs, my ideals and ideas.
Stretching my comfort zone and learning things that once actually scared me is my new "thing." I've discovered that I 'need' to know as much as I can find out. Everything...

Advanced is beyond what I know already.
I'm never actually "advanced"... and I'm always a Newbie at something... I have to be... I have to know...

[RainInanna]

I often see a lot of talk about becoming more advanced in use of various tools, of becoming more knowledgeable about particular deities, but something I never see (and hope to see more of soon) is a more advanced discussion of Pagan ethics.

Just wondered, did you see the thread in Books about Emma Restall-Orr's new book on ethics? There's also one I have on my shelf called The Witch's 10 Commandments that you might be interested in.

I'm also interested in the subject but as you mention, it can be dodgy. Before you know it someone's defending themself saying they don't have to follow anyone else's ethical system etc. I still find it interesting to compare not only ethics but values of different paths - such as noble virtues etc.

[Lalaith]

Just wondered, did you see the thread in Books about Emma Restall-Orr's new book on ethics?

I did! I've ordered the book and should get to read it in a few days :)

I think that, while people will always disagree on the niceties, it would be wonderful if most people could say that, yes, there are a few broad guiding principles that work. Otherwise, there's little common ground for discussion, let along getting along. I'm big on people getting along.

[RainInanna]

I think that, while people will always disagree on the niceties, it would be wonderful if most people could say that, yes, there are a few broad guiding principles that work. Otherwise, there's little common ground for discussion, let along getting along. I'm big on people getting along.

Even before that, if people could discuss them without assuming by doing so we must be insisting they be followed. Just discussing how they are useful and meaningful, know what I mean?

[Fiamma]

Saddly, sometimes an advanced concept may also be one developed around a given UPG one may have. It may even be developed about a theory of who a thing works though no physical proof is available to support it.


Why is this sad? Perhaps a bit more of a challenge to present to others as an advanced concept, but I don't see it as sad...

[CzechWoods]

to me advanced paganism/spirituality etc is not defined by the ammount of books or time you have "consumed" to the opic, but how much you LIVE the faith, how much it is incorporated in your every breath, thought, action and feelings

[Fire's Shadow]

Getting past the basics to more complex issues and aspects of practice and theory in pagan religions as they are practised in modern time.

Quick question, what are these complex issues, btw? Not picking on you, just curious. Love the avatar, btw.

[~Belladonna~]

What does that mean?

It basically means what it says, Advanced Paganism :smileroll