Paganism Corruptable?

[fadedpent]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did. When christianity started out it was the underdog, a small up and coming faith with a lot of really good people with good ideas, who generally wanted to help. As it grew it evolved and as it got larger, stronger, more powerfull, the men at the top became twisted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my question is does anyone think they could see this happening to our people especially with some of our large formal tradtions like the Correllian tradition (please note that im using this as an example because of the the size and history of this tradtion and do not seek to insult anyone).

[Grey Wolf]

first of all i don't think "pagan" is an -ism. to me, it's not a religion, it's simply a category that describes all spiritual paths that are not eastern or abrahamic.

but to get back on topic, every human on this planet is corruptible. you run into power struggles and infighting in any group of any people of any size. covens, open circles, study groups, and others on the small scale, local and isolated, do not worry me. that "corruptibility" is simply interpersonal drama. i also don't worry about corruption within "traditions" as you mentioned, the varied spiritual pathways that fall under the pagan umbrella. many of these traditions have risen and fallen, been born and disappeared, completely of their own accord without major impact to the overreaching neopagan movement.

i do worry about the worldwide pagan-centric religious organizations that can effect policy change in entire countries. the big three (that i'm aware of) are covenant of the goddess, circle sanctuary, and sacred well congregation. (anyone who is not familiar with all three of these names needs to pause mysticwicks and change the channel to google, right now, and get cracking.)

the reason i worry about these three and any others like them is that when you attain the power to effect such widespread change, your "corruptibility" is public, in the viewing eye of the lawmakers and the voters. mistakes or discredit to these large organizations has ripple effects on the entire community of pagan spiritual paths, regardless of whether or not you're a member. the other danger is that the way you get the power to effect policy change is by working closely within the systems by which those policies are made, ie. the government. all of us know that the government is probably the largest seat and center of corruption, and it's an unfortunate aspect of humanity that what or whom you associate with or work with, you begin to become, or become like. so there's a trade off... if you refuse to allow unscrupulous people and practices in or around your life, you make yourself unable to work within (and cause change within) the resultingly unscrupulous systems that govern your life.

the awareness of these imminent dangers does not paralyze me, or drive me into solitary practice. i'm an active member of SWC, and plan to either join or be well known and trusted by members of CoG and CS and any other major organizations that spring up. all have major assets, strengths, and networking opportunities, and many other individual traits that i can benefit from. and hopefully they benefit from my membership in return.

but while i participate i also watch, and if i can stop or prevent what i percieve as corruption in the top ranks, i will. and i desperately hope that if i attain some organizational power or status someday, i have a whole group of people watching me with equal vigilance, prepared to call me out privately or publicly if i begin to show signs of corruption.

[Grey Wolf]

sorry, i've been editing that post for about thirty minutes. apologies to anyone trying to reply so far... i think i've got it where i want it now. :D

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I have got to say, I take issue with your notion that Christianity is wholly corrupted.

[SphinYote]

If christianity is corrupted, one can only say that paganism is equally corrupted already. I think that people are corruptable, and I've met just as many nasty pagans as I have Christians, and just as many good pagans as good christians.

A lot of people use whatever religion they feel like, whether christianity, Islam, Paganism, or even atheism to justify just about any perverse and twisted vision of reality they can think up. All religions have their hypocritical bigots who hide behind the term.

[ignescentphoenix]

Anything that involves people, has the potential to be corrupted.

[Vampiel]

Well I can't say there have been many Wiccan crusades but im not a history major.

[ignescentphoenix]

Well I can't say there have been many Wiccan crusades but im not a history major.


I dont think there were any Wiccan televangelists that swindled millions of dollars either.:hahugh:

[Vampiel]

I dont there were any Wiccan televangelists that swindled millions of dollars either.:hahugh:

:veryweird

Because of rules on the forum I will refrain from commenting further. :thumbsup:

[LostSheep]

Considering that Wicca, as an organsied religion, is about at the same stage now in terms of time as Christianity was when the gospels began to be wirtten, I'd say there's plenty of time yet. Will Wicca need a Council of Nicaea to decide on an official doctrine?

[Vampiel]

Considering that Wicca, as an organsied religion, is about at the same stage now in terms of time as Christianity was when the gospels began to be wirtten, I'd say there's plenty of time yet. Will Wicca need a Council of Nicaea to decide on an official doctrine?

Actually paganism used to be the primary religion and was larger than Christianity (though its hard to say 'paganism' as one religion as pointed out but the same goes for christianity).

[banondraig]

Considering that Wicca, as an organsied religion, is about at the same stage now in terms of time as Christianity was when the gospels began to be wirtten, I'd say there's plenty of time yet. Will Wicca need a Council of Nicaea to decide on an official doctrine?

Likely so; it's very ill-defined at the moment.

[LostSheep]

Actually paganism used to be the primary religion and was larger than Christianity (though its hard to say 'paganism' as one religion as pointed out but the same goes for christianity).

Oh yes, that's why I said Wicca to distinguish it from pre-Christian religions. Neo-paganism, i meant, of course. (Not that i'm saying that Wicca is the only form of neo-paganism, either, of course.)

[Phoenix Blue]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did.
No. I can't do anything about what Paganism will be 2,000 years from now, so why should I worry about it?

[Lunacie]

Likely so; it's very ill-defined at the moment.

Wicca is actually rather well defined, in my opinion. However, there are a lot of groups and solitaries who call their path "Wicca" when what they are doing isn't very much like the common definition of Wicca at all and cannot honestly be labeled Wicca. Follow the link in my siggie to the Paths: Wicca forum and look for a sticky thread called "Core Beliefs of Wicca." That is the common definition, and fairly well defined.

As has been mentioned, Paganism is varied enough among different beliefs and practices that it's simply not possible to come up with one definition or one set of values that covers everything. Each of the individual paths within the broad spectrum of Paganism is certainly as likely as any other set of religious beliefs of being corrupted. Although I'm not a student of history, it seems unlikely and rare for any belief system to become so corrupt that there aren't at least a few people still holding true to the core of it.

[fadedpent]

I appologize if i put forth the notion that christianity is wholly corrupted. I meant no trespass. I was only useing it as an example for the corruptabilty of a religion as it starts to grow and build a hierarchy

[SphinYote]

I appologize if i put forth the notion that christianity is wholly corrupted. I meant no trespass. I was only useing it as an example for the corruptabilty of a religion as it starts to grow and build a hierarchy

Eh, no offense taken. Its actually, I hate to admit, how I started out in my own at the time oversimplified view of things....my transition was for what I consider now wrong reasons, but I think regardless of the original reasons the personal growth has been for the best.

[SphinYote]

I dont think there were any Wiccan televangelists that swindled millions of dollars either.:hahugh:

Hmm, maybe not, but there are enough self-proclaimed wiccan, pagan, or new age tarot and aura readers who swindle individuals out of hundreds and in some cases thousands of dollars by playing on their fears and insecurities. We have our share of nasty swindlers and bullshitters.

I consider those people absolutely corrupt, particularly given that I'm a reader myself....

[watersprite]

I think that as long as we follow our own paths and don't get caught up in "big covens," organized paths with a single leader, etc, we will be OK. I strayed far from Organized religion of any kind all my life, because there was always SOMEBODY telling EVERYBODY what to do and taking all their money to build a big building to live in and a big church to run while the children outside the gates were barefoot and hungry. I will not give up my own ideals and personal morals to follow one person. Not ever.

[ignescentphoenix]

Considering that Wicca, as an organsied religion, is about at the same stage now in terms of time as Christianity was when the gospels began to be wirtten, I'd say there's plenty of time yet. Will Wicca need a Council of Nicaea to decide on an official doctrine?


I think Neo-paganism isn't going to be like christianity in 2000 years. We are in the age of information now, not the age of superstition. Things will be very different.

[PaganLibrarian]

I dont think there were any Wiccan televangelists that swindled millions of dollars either.

Maybe not, but I know at least a dozen people right now who are ripping people off in the name of Wicca (anyone else know a Wiccan "Priest" or "Priestess" who started practicing Wicca less than a year ago, and are now teaching new "initiates" all about it for money).

[ignescentphoenix]

Maybe not, but I know at least a dozen people right now who are ripping people off in the name of Wicca (anyone else know a Wiccan "Priest" or "Priestess" who started practicing Wicca less than a year ago, and are now teaching new "initiates" all about it for money).


Someone already beat you to it. But I'd like to add, that I don't think the psuedo wiccans extorted more money from people than crooked televangelists. Although it does reflect very badly on us.

[Philosophia]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did. When christianity started out it was the underdog, a small up and coming faith with a lot of really good people with good ideas, who generally wanted to help. As it grew it evolved and as it got larger, stronger, more powerfull, the men at the top became twisted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my question is does anyone think they could see this happening to our people especially with some of our large formal tradtions like the Correllian tradition (please note that im using this as an example because of the the size and history of this tradtion and do not seek to insult anyone).

All paths, spiritualities, religions, etc. have the ability to be corrupted.

[Eldric_Dragonsblood]

Amounts are irrelivant. The simple act of swindling people makes it just as bad.

Swindle a single old lady out of $2000 and you're not as bad as swindling 2000 old ladies? I don't buy it.

And yes, there are multipule instances of Crusade-like, or inquisition-type, religious wars in the pre-Christian period. The number of "my god is better than your god" wars in the ancient world is remarkable.

[ignescentphoenix]

Amounts are irrelivant. The simple act of swindling people makes it just as bad.

Swindle a single old lady out of $2000 and you're not as bad as swindling 2000 old ladies? I don't buy it.

And yes, there are multipule instances of Crusade-like, or inquisition-type, religious wars in the pre-Christian period. The number of "my god is better than your god" wars in the ancient world is remarkable.


I am by no means saying swindling anyone is ok. But 2000 people, to 1 people. Someone is definitely a little worse than the other. You are right, Battles were fought before christianity because pagans were trying to conquer other pagans.

I doubt we will ever by like any of the abrahamic religions. Unless a Wiccan Jesus arrives. That would be interesting.

[Terra Mater]

Pre Christian religions aside, how many people knpw of sex scandals involving their local OTO temples? How many Pagan goups engage in shoddy bookkeeping methods? How many Tantra classes are more about group sex than group spirituality? That is happens under a lot of individual titles rather than one large communal title means little.

Locally I have seen examples of all this and worse. There are a greater number of bad Pagan groups than there are good ones here. Will we ever get as large as the Christian groups? Not in the next three lifetimes. The information age just means we have better educated scoundrels, but they have a shorter life because there are also a whole host of places around the Web where people talk about their bad experiences with these groups. The scandals splinter groups and some of the splinter groups are just as bad, if not worse than the groups they splintered from.

How many people remember Y Tylwyth Teg and the controversy that surrounded them which included accusations of plagiarism? Or the Frosts who were accused of advocating child sexual initiations? There is the rampant Fraud, Misappropriation, and/or Exploitation in the Faux Indian community. The "conviction" of Orren Whiddon for animal cruelty. Oddly enough, one of the people who is claimed to be responsible for airing the Y Tylwyth Teg controversy also claimed to have been the one to have Orren Whiddon arrested for the animal cruelty charges he was "convicted" of.

Are any of the controversies true? Who knows, aside from the people that were actually there, and much of the "truth" has been long buried in a sea of Internet innuendo and supposition. For all I honestly know, they all could be true, they all could be witch wars gone too far, or they could all be both. I offer them only to show that even the post Christian Pagans have their own scandals, controversy, and corruption.

Our lack of organization has not kept us any safer from scandal and controversy than the mainstream churches no matter how different we claim to be.

[Caitlin.ann]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did. When christianity started out it was the underdog, a small up and coming faith with a lot of really good people with good ideas, who generally wanted to help. As it grew it evolved and as it got larger, stronger, more powerfull, the men at the top became twisted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my question is does anyone think they could see this happening to our people especially with some of our large formal tradtions like the Correllian tradition (please note that im using this as an example because of the the size and history of this tradtion and do not seek to insult anyone).

Umm no. Remember why Christianity was the underdog? Because of Paganism..Paganism is not some new "underdog concept". "Our people"..we are not unified for one and for two good luck trying to unify all pagans so there can even be an "our people". Paganism is an umbrella term for every religions out there except for Abrahams three.

[Little Billy]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did.

"Eventually"?

Already has, in many cases.

[ignescentphoenix]

Pre Christian religions aside, how many people knpw of sex scandals involving their local OTO temples? How many Pagan goups engage in shoddy bookkeeping methods? How many Tantra classes are more about group sex than group spirituality? That is happens under a lot of individual titles rather than one large communal title means little.

Locally I have seen examples of all this and worse. There are a greater number of bad Pagan groups than there are good ones here. Will we ever get as large as the Christian groups? Not in the next three lifetimes. The information age just means we have better educated scoundrels, but they have a shorter life because there are also a whole host of places around the Web where people talk about their bad experiences with these groups. The scandals splinter groups and some of the splinter groups are just as bad, if not worse than the groups they splintered from.

How many people remember Y Tylwyth Teg and the controversy that surrounded them which included accusations of plagiarism? Or the Frosts who were accused of advocating child sexual initiations? There is the rampant Fraud, Misappropriation, and/or Exploitation in the Faux Indian community. The "conviction" of Orren Whiddon for animal cruelty. Oddly enough, one of the people who is claimed to be responsible for airing the Y Tylwyth Teg controversy also claimed to have been the one to have Orren Whiddon arrested for the animal cruelty charges he was "convicted" of.

Are any of the controversies true? Who knows, aside from the people that were actually there, and much of the "truth" has been long buried in a sea of Internet innuendo and supposition. For all I honestly know, they all could be true, they all could be witch wars gone too far, or they could all be both. I offer them only to show that even the post Christian Pagans have their own scandals, controversy, and corruption.

Our lack of organization has not kept us any safer from scandal and controversy than the mainstream churches no matter how different we claim to be.

You usually only hear about the bad groups. Because thats only news worthy. I think there are way more good groups than bad groups. I count covens as groups.

[Garm]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did. When christianity started out it was the underdog, a small up and coming faith with a lot of really good people with good ideas, who generally wanted to help. As it grew it evolved and as it got larger, stronger, more powerfull, the men at the top became twisted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my question is does anyone think they could see this happening to our people especially with some of our large formal tradtions like the Correllian tradition (please note that im using this as an example because of the the size and history of this tradtion and do not seek to insult anyone).

Nothing to worry about if the separation of the church and state still hold

While, for instance, the Orthodox trads of Christianity have some points you can criticize them for, ie cultural chauvinism and antisemitic tendencies, they never got up to anything like the mischief that the Catholic church did, if only because never had and don't seem to have sought the same kind of political power.

[raistlin]

Based off of my own research, Christianity has so many flaws in it that I'm simply disgusted by the religion itself. However, I know people who call themselves Christian who don't follow the Bible's every word and are open-minded (supporting of homosexuality, for example). So, I don't hate all Christians, although I hold little respect for the religion itself.

I think all religions have the potential to become corrupted, because people will make it that way. People are power-hungry.

Let me ask you; have you ever told anyone about your religion? How did you feel when (if) that person (or people) "converted" or took an interest in it? Because, really, getting someone to follow you and join your religion is an interesting experience, it in a way gives you power over that person.

I've known extremist Christians and extremist pagans, and I can honestly say, it isn't entirely the religions themselves that become corrupted, so much as the people who support it. If that makes any sense. >_<

-brainfartmoment-

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I've met just as many nasty pagans as I have Christians

I've got to say that in my own personal experience, I've had a LOT more pagans try to ruin, backstab, break, and emotionally or socially wound me than I have ever had Christians. Some of these people are people who I have in the past viewed as family.

It's a damned good thing that I'm close to Isis, as She protects against snakes and all.

One of the things at play in pagan groups is that people are stupid. People in pagan groups often get a small taste of power, and can be a big fish in a small pond in they play their cards right. Occasionally, if they feel that people are paying more attention to someone else, and they want to be in the spotlight, they may stir up shit and drama (often one and the same) in order to shuffle things in their favour, so they're the centre of attention. I've found it useful to sit back, be quiet, and watch what happens. Often there will be one person who has put her/himself at the epicenter of conflicts and debates and is perhaps ferrying information to each side. That person is a snake.

Do not trust the snake, and do not tell the snake anything that you don't want to be passed on to people who may wish to see your life made interesting. It may not overtly act like a snake, or look like a snake, but it is still a snake, and it thrives on conflict.

[Sequoia]

Umm no. Remember why Christianity was the underdog? Because of Paganism..Paganism is not some new "underdog concept". "Our people"..we are not unified for one and for two good luck trying to unify all pagans so there can even be an "our people". Paganism is an umbrella term for every religions out there except for Abrahams three.

QFT.

Gathering pagans together as a single religion is not only unlikely, considering that "paganism" is an umbrella term, but getting people to agree on what exactly their religion specifically is would be like herding cats in the rain.

Wicca has the potential to be a centralized religion, however, this phenomenon of "McWicca" really detracts from that potential. You'd have to define and standardize Wicca much more than it currently is in order to bring about a specific religious path that multitudes of people follow.

"Wicca" is about as specific as calling yourself "Christian". You may hold one or two core beliefs together, but you'll all end up arguing yourselves blue in the face over the specifics and variables. And you'll get people saying, "THAT's not Wicca!" to eachother... and on it goes.

But as to the original question about corruption... I've known more corrupt Pagans than I have corrupt Christians. And considering the population statistics of how many Pagans there are versus how many Christians there are... that's kind of sad.

[ignescentphoenix]

Wow, you guys must hang with the wrong crowd. I normally see not-so-nice christians, rather than pagans.

[Sequoia]

Wow, you guys must hang with the wrong crowd. I normally see not-so-nice christians, rather than pagans.

Oh, I'm aware that there's plenty of not-so-nice Christians out there. But there are also an aweful lot of nice, charitable *Christians* out there.

I've met WAY too many crazy pagans. :lol:

[ignescentphoenix]

Oh, I'm aware that there's plenty of not-so-nice Christians out there. But there are also an aweful lot of nice, charitable *Christians* out there.

I've met WAY too many crazy pagans. :lol:


I rarely meet crazy pagans, two or three maybe. I almost always meet a crazy new age person. Seriously :hehehehe:

[LostSheep]

Wow, you guys must hang with the wrong crowd. I normally see not-so-nice christians, rather than pagans.

Normally see not-so-nice Christians? how many Christians do you actually know? And all, or most of them, are not-so-nice?

[ignescentphoenix]

Normally see not-so-nice Christians? how many Christians do you actually know? And all, or most of them, are not-so-nice?


Well, thier reaction to me is different from a normal pagan. See, im a gay pagan, im like doubly going to hell. Sure, I talk to them, say hi. But I have very few christian friends. I wont be friends with someone if they can't except my gayness. Why am I gonna chill with someone who in the back of thier mind thinks im going to hell. No thanks.

[LostSheep]

yeah, i can see what you mean there. It's just a shame that it's always those who talk the loudest (and who usually talk the loudest because they're the most bigoted) that put themselves up as representing their religion, when i bet they know less about it than those who don't go around shouting how "righteous" they are.

[cheddarsox]

I've seen corruption in pagan groups and by pagans in other groups I've belonged to with them. I'm not going to try to figure out if it is greater or equal to that I've seen by Christians or in Christian groups, but it looks, smells, feels, pretty much the same.

People are people and people, no matter what they profess to believe, and some of us are greedy, insecure, lustful, or have revenge in mind.

And if a person is using faith to rip someone off, they are just as bad as the next person doing the same, the fact that they were less successful (one old woman, as opposed to 20) really tells us nothing except they are not as adept at their trade.

I'm not sure how much of the scamming that goes on in ANY religion is by the true believers and how much by the posers. That is always an issue, maybe most of the mischief is done by posers...fake psychics, people who go into ministry with the idea of the sexual access it will give them to others, people who skim money, con artist, those who prey on others superstitions, etc. Most of that may be done by people who only profess belief, but don't really take it to heart. There is no way to tell. But I've seen ads for phychic reading, talismans, prayer rags, etc my entire life, in the back of magazines, etc. I'm pretty sure that is not ALL legit.

I've seen sexual sickos leading pagan groups...and Christian groups. The local Christian bookstore was on the front page of the paper two days ago, an employee had embezzeled $750,000!

so...is it that corrupt people smell opportunity among people who can fall prey to having their own beliefs twisted against them...or is it that true believers simply stuff their ethics when they see the opportunity?

In the end it doesn't matter, we know this stuff happens wherever two or more are gathered and we have to keep our wits about us.

I don't think it should keep us from organizing, because it happens even among the UN-organized groups. I've seen pagans prey on on other pagans on-line, who have no more association than one another's screen names.

It's a people problem.

[Eleisawolf]

Well, thier reaction to me is different from a normal pagan. See, im a gay pagan, im like doubly going to hell. Sure, I talk to them, say hi. But I have very few christian friends. I wont be friends with someone if they can't except my gayness. Why am I gonna chill with someone who in the back of thier mind thinks im going to hell. No thanks.

Interestingly, as a straight pantheistic pagan, I attend a Christian church that has membership including straight pantheists, humanists, gay pagans, gay Christians, and a wide variety of other people.

I have to agree with what the majority of folks are saying, hereh. It's not a Christian or pagan or humanist or pantheist or otherwise thing to be corrupt or compassionate. It's a human thing.

Peace

[patch]

Well, thier reaction to me is different from a normal pagan. See, im a gay pagan, im like doubly going to hell. Sure, I talk to them, say hi. But I have very few christian friends. I wont be friends with someone if they can't except my gayness. Why am I gonna chill with someone who in the back of thier mind thinks im going to hell. No thanks.

I certainly do not believe that all christians think that in the back of their minds.
My best friend is a devout christian (as I speak she is in france at a christian event) and 2 of our other best friends are totally gay.
Figure.

[CzechWoods]

if a person sticks on christian believes and lives the rules accordingly they cannot be corrupted.

if a person chooses pagan paths and sticks to the rules, meaning LIVES as pagan, they cannot be corrupted.

the trouble is, that most people would seek faults in the outside, in other peples ways of life, in holier than you rather than establishing a faith systm in such a manner into their ives, that they become one with the path and live in utmost inner peace.

people, who are at inner peace are not corrptable. people in fear are.

when starting a pagan path, you should do an innitiation. the innitiation should be thorough, profound and thereforre is often viewed as hard to even harmful. yet it is a birth process, and pain comes along with it. its a fact of life.

most pagans i have met, wiccans included, as most of the christians i have met or jews for that matter try to skip the painful processes. they stick to their fears rather than becominfg free of them. they stick to their hierarchies rather than become part of the web/net. they stick to their limitatios, because a limitation you know is far more attractive than the feedom and responsibility you dont know.

most of the eple i mentioned above therefor by definition are neither christians, jews , pagans or whatever they claim to be. they are a crowed of corrupted, manipulatable and often also manipulative people.

therefore, i have to say, it is not only a corruptable path, it is in wide parts just the same medal, only from a different point of view.

[Lunacie]

Cheddarsox, I agree that most of the scamming and corruption within any religion is done by the Posers, those who don't have a religious feeling of any kind in their bodies.

Paganism, without a heirarchy or authority of any kind, is simply easier for those Posers to prey upon, eh?

[cheddarsox]

Cheddarsox, I agree that most of the scamming and corruption within any religion is done by the Posers, those who don't have a religious feeling of any kind in their bodies.

Paganism, without a heirarchy or authority of any kind, is simply easier for those Posers to prey upon, eh?

From what I've seen, heirarchy and "authority" don't seem to be able to keep out the posers either, in fact, most people seem so eager for a leader, they'll allow even the most obvious liar/greedy scum to take the position, rather than be called to service themselves. Our own distaste for confrontation, our unwillingness to judge the actions of another, and our unwillingness to call people on their poor behavior allows such to thrive.

No one likes to be the one to say "no, the shaninigans stop here and now."

we like to give the benefit of the doubt, say "who am I to judge", or hope that karma will take care of it.

It's hard to stand up, especially in a community that takes pride in being non-judgemental, open, accepting, and "not like them" to say "that is wrong and won't be tolerated"

I've run head on into this in Liberal Christian groups, UUgroups, pagan groups. We don't want to "judge" because that is what we were running from, but then we come to the ugly realization that without someone making a stand, there will always be people who do not choose ethical behavior. And if the group does not enforce standards, there will soon be none.

And because many good people don't want the responsibility and spotlight of a leadership position, the less ethical are glad to take the role.

Then the good people leave in frustration and the corrupt have it all to themselves.

I've lived through this cycle over and over again.

No amount of heirarchy or organization can prevent it, look at the Catholic church or most governments.

The only thing that can prevent it is people refusing to tolerate it at ANY level. and that means having to not only make a judgement of others behaviors, but be willing to confront people AND be willing to serve in a leadership role oneself.

hard but true.

[Lunacie]

From what I've seen, heirarchy and "authority" don't seem to be able to keep out the posers either, in fact, most people seem so eager for a leader, they'll allow even the most obvious liar/greedy scum to take the position, rather than be called to service themselves. Our own distaste for confrontation, our unwillingness to judge the actions of another, and our unwillingness to call people on their poor behavior allows such to thrive.

No one likes to be the one to say "no, the shaninigans stop here and now."

we like to give the benefit of the doubt, say "who am I to judge", or hope that karma will take care of it.

It's hard to stand up, especially in a community that takes pride in being non-judgemental, open, accepting, and "not like them" to say "that is wrong and won't be tolerated"

I've run head on into this in Liberal Christian groups, UUgroups, pagan groups. We don't want to "judge" because that is what we were running from, but then we come to the ugly realization that without someone making a stand, there will always be people who do not choose ethical behavior. And if the group does not enforce standards, there will soon be none.

And because many good people don't want the responsibility and spotlight of a leadership position, the less ethical are glad to take the role.

Then the good people leave in frustration and the corrupt have it all to themselves.

I've lived through this cycle over and over again.

No amount of heirarchy or organization can prevent it, look at the Catholic church or most governments.

The only thing that can prevent it is people refusing to tolerate it at ANY level. and that means having to not only make a judgement of others behaviors, but be willing to confront people AND be willing to serve in a leadership role oneself.

hard but true.

I faced that same kind of scenario in my own small group at the beginning of this year. Without the support and encouragement of the majority of the group I don't know how long I would have allowed the internal struggle to continue - because I didn't want to impose my "authority" on anyone else. But that's not a Pagan issue, it's more to do with my own struggle with self-esteem.

However, now that I've been through it once and lost a valued friendship because my friend was convinced that the instigator was "the victim", I will hopefully be wiser and quicker to take the appropriate steps if there is another time.

[watersprite]

As long as there are human beings, there will be corruption. The few that take from the many. There will be overthrows and battles and power struggles. This happens within the "nuclear" family. There is a dominant and several submissives, that carry on to form a family government, then it goes higher until the main government is totally a house of cards. Find that single entity, the most corrupt, not the figure head. Take it out and the house falls.

[ignescentphoenix]

yeah, i can see what you mean there. It's just a shame that it's always those who talk the loudest (and who usually talk the loudest because they're the most bigoted) that put themselves up as representing their religion, when i bet they know less about it than those who don't go around shouting how "righteous" they are.

meh, It doesn't mean I don't like christianity as a whole. Its just we have different Political ideals and goals, so we probably just dont 'click'.




I certainly do not believe that all christians think that in the back of their minds.
My best friend is a devout christian (as I speak she is in france at a christian event) and 2 of our other best friends are totally gay.
Figure.

Of course I know that not all christians feel that way. But usually its because they aren't practicing christians(don't go to church, dont read the bible.) There is enough christians though, who think the opposite. Those ones are standing in my way for equal rights. I normally click with the first kind of christian.

[Solya]

Of course we, and our beliefs, are able to be corrupted. This usually happens when somebody thinks they've got all the correct answers to the big questions in life... and tries to shove all of that down somebody else's throat. We've managed to avoid most of that in Paganism due to the fact that everybody's so varied in beliefs and practices, but I can't help but think that the moment we will start to unite more is the moment we're also more susceptible to corruption.

Yet, corruption is very much a human thing. We can't avoid it, because it's inherent in our systems or something like that. I have my own little circle, but if my circle gets taken up into a bigger circle there's no telling what might happen.

[CzechWoods]

off topic: Paganism Corruptable sounds like a good band name

[Xentor]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did. When christianity started out it was the underdog, a small up and coming faith with a lot of really good people with good ideas, who generally wanted to help. As it grew it evolved and as it got larger, stronger, more powerfull, the men at the top became twisted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my question is does anyone think they could see this happening to our people especially with some of our large formal tradtions like the Correllian tradition (please note that im using this as an example because of the the size and history of this tradtion and do not seek to insult anyone).

That's odd. I thought only humans to be corruptable. Are you sure we are humans yet?

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=199258

[childofbast]

Someone else mentioned the point that many people are so eager to find leaders. In the Pagan community, it seems that many are eager to find teachers. Just look at how many people get swindled by harmful cults. There are a large number of people out there who feel that they have holes that need filling and they want a "quick-fix" religion. It's unfortunate that much of the corruption is fueled by such willing victims.

Luckily, I've not encountered much corruption at all. I've heard of it in other groups in the area, but most of the Pagans I know are willing to put aside differences to learn. We get into some pretty heated debates, but it's never a power struggle - at least not the way I see it. I hope that doesn't happen.

Otherwise, I agree with many others - it's a human thing. There'll always be one (or hundreds) of bad apples ready to spoil the bunch.

~Melanie

[SphinYote]

You usually only hear about the bad groups. Because thats only news worthy. I think there are way more good groups than bad groups. I count covens as groups.

Heh, not at all news. Personal experience.

[fadedpent]

I think Neo-paganism isn't going to be like christianity in 2000 years. We are in the age of information now, not the age of superstition. Things will be very different.

History always repeats. Their were always be those who seek to control the populace and there will always be that populace provideing the means to do so. Its true that we are in an age of information but this is the cycle of purity and corruption, anything is possible for the future.

[Suezie]

Any human being has the capability of corruption. It doesn't matter if it's religiouse, spiritual, or theist (whetever the belief). Many of "Christians" are corrupt, as well as many "neo-pagan" or "wiccans" are corrupt, as well as many "jews" are corrupt as well as many "hindus" are corrupt, as well as many "muslims" are corrupt..... ETC.....
I think the longer any religion or faith is around, the more corruptness there will be. The wider spread knowladge, the more chance of corruptness. The more people we have, the more chance of corruptness.
Paganism has undoubtebly already forgone a corruption stage, and will undoubtedly see another (if not already being seen still in this current time).
Faith is what holds the actual belief together. Ignorance, is only a cross to bear, it isn't always a way of life, and not all humans will choose bias over faith in order to better themselves materialistically, or legendary.
That is how faith survives from generation to generation.

[cydira]

The question is where does the difference lie between corruption and necessary growth?

Socrates was executed for the crime of corrupting the youth of Athens. Was it the case or was it a situation of people in a position of power resisting necessary change for fear of seeing their power wane?

Add to this particular bit of information the fact that paganism is as diverse as a field of wildflowers, where can you point to corruption, necessary adaptation, or hybridization of the different belief systems?

[kaosxmage]

While corruption runs riot in the hearts and souls of individuals, and I'll never be a fan of the Christian machine, let's not forget they remain the leaders in social service.

You'll find more food drives, homeless shelters, home building programs, financial crisis help, counseling, and more programs from Christian institutions. Sure, corruption exists in these areas, and it's easy to point them out. However, don't forget what they do for communities. As I understand our own various histories, it seems Pagan priesthoods of lore specifically served their communities.

It would go a long way toward to spirit of larger Pagan groups or organizations to put effort toward social service. Public rituals don't count.

Yeah, that was a bit of a tangent. :smile: I'm good at that.

Twas just a thought. Keep debating. Carry on. :thumbsup:

--Kaos

[Cunae]

Christianity always gets a black eye when a professed Christian is busted doing corrupt or perverted stuff simply because our faith is so high profile. I also think it's pure bias when someone points at us and sneers about a Christian's downfall, for the same reason. One does not millions make, however. Most of us try to be good and honest people, just like most pagans and atheists do.

It's my guess that there are just as many pagans and atheists out there, in terms of ratio, who are doing nasty things. If it's a priest, the media screams about it. If it's a regular joe-schmoe who doesn't live any faith at all, he's just one among many who have committed a particular crime.

[Lunacie]

While corruption runs riot in the hearts and souls of individuals, and I'll never be a fan of the Christian machine, let's not forget they remain the leaders in social service.

You'll find more food drives, homeless shelters, home building programs, financial crisis help, counseling, and more programs from Christian institutions. Sure, corruption exists in these areas, and it's easy to point them out. However, don't forget what they do for communities. As I understand our own various histories, it seems Pagan priesthoods of lore specifically served their communities.

It would go a long way toward to spirit of larger Pagan groups or organizations to put effort toward social service. Public rituals don't count.

Yeah, that was a bit of a tangent. :smile: I'm good at that.

Twas just a thought. Keep debating. Carry on. :thumbsup:

--Kaos

Trouble with that notion is that most folks wouldn't accept help from a Pagan organization - unless they were Pagan themselves. However, maybe we could make more of an effort to offer some services to the Pagan community, so that Pagans wouldn't feel uncomfortable turning to mainstream organizations when they need some help.

[kaosxmage]

Trouble with that notion is that most folks wouldn't accept help from a Pagan organization - unless they were Pagan themselves. However, maybe we could make more of an effort to offer some services to the Pagan community, so that Pagans wouldn't feel uncomfortable turning to mainstream organizations when they need some help.

Many people would accept help from a Pagan organization. I'm quite sure of that, as long as it's not so over the top. There's no reason to cover the cause with Pentagrams and fairies. Believe it or not, many Christian social causes refrain from the barrage of symbolism. Once upon a time I helped in a soup kitchen that was run by a baptist church. I wanted to do something more, and it was literally the only gig in town at the time. The only Christian propoganda used was a simple "God Bless You" when the hungry folks came through the line. I promise you that most of those people were interested in one thing: food. They didn't care where it came from.

I have the idea that more social service for our communities at large will go miles in improving image, prejudice, and might even wind up recruiting quality minds that want to help.

However, I've now taken the thread completely off track. My apologies.

To all a good evening! :hahugh:

--Kaos

[Lunacie]

Many people would accept help from a Pagan organization. I'm quite sure of that, as long as it's not so over the top. There's no reason to cover the cause with Pentagrams and fairies. Believe it or not, many Christian social causes refrain from the barrage of symbolism. Once upon a time I helped in a soup kitchen that was run by a baptist church. I wanted to do something more, and it was literally the only gig in town at the time. The only Christian propoganda used was a simple "God Bless You" when the hungry folks came through the line. I promise you that most of those people were interested in one thing: food. They didn't care where it came from.

I have the idea that more social service for our communities at large will go miles in improving image, prejudice, and might even wind up recruiting quality minds that want to help.

However, I've now taken the thread completely off track. My apologies.

To all a good evening! :hahugh:

--Kaos

I'm just going off the instances I've seen where Pagan groups donating to something like the Food Bank were rejected because of who was giving the money or items. Although I wasn't there and don't know whether the giver was "over the top" in expecting recognition for the donation. However, unless we somehow make it known who is making the donation or providing the social service, then it really doesn't help to improve our image with the general public, eh?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I really do not see why people would even have to ask that question for when viewed against a back drop of just a few decades one can see corruption. The Pagan / Heathen concept and structure today is already different than what existed in the 1980's, even as that differed from the 1950's.

If one thinks of corruption as any change that moves it away from the base notion and concept then corruption must occur for it to evolve. I think the problem lies in one's defination of what is corruption and what is positive versus negative corruption.

However, even that is perspective driven. To some hard core Wiccan's I new, Wicca has been greatly corrupted. The very ties that bound it and held it together corrupted in light of a more softer concept of what is or is not. One might say a more user friendly version that required less structure.

The notion of power corruption has also occured and continues. Silver Ravenwolf comes to mind for me with regards of what her pre-publishing days are referenced to have been like versus her success. A corruption of values and beliefs one can see in a number of published writers if viewed against their works and the evolution of those works.

Every time some one speaks to take what you like and meld it to form a new and unique pathwalk for each individual results in corruption. Yes, it makes one feel better, perhaps even important. However, it is still a corruption of some ideal they were introducted to that inspired them or was the foundation upon which they built thier beliefs.

The old calling it corruption the younger calling it evolution. The cycle in constant flux as the old become gone and the young become old.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

You know, as I sit and think of the public image and relationship we have it's not hard to understand why things might be refused or viewed wrongly. Look at some of our most public images:

Let's see we have the woman who was crying foul because she couldn't burn her cooler in the middle of the night.
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/9170932.html

We have the woman who stabbed herself in the foot with her sword while performing a good luck ritual in a cemetery.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25803777/

Granted that is just a small sample but for every right or correct thing done, it only takes one item to undo a lot of the good. A few bad items will far outlive the good items in the memory of the people.

kaosxmage wrote:


Many people would accept help from a Pagan organization. I'm quite sure of that, as long as it's not so over the top. There's no reason to cover the cause with Pentagrams and fairies. Believe it or not, many Christian social causes refrain from the barrage of symbolism.


I think that hits a lot of it on the head.

[AJwins]

I'm not sure where I read it, but someone once said that they wish Wicca had Christianity's problems: One of the most popular religions in the world, thath influences the behavior of some of the world's most powerful people.

Wouldn' that be nice?

I actually don't see Wicca going down the path that Christianity did; I see the potential to destroy itself from the inside due to infighting and the orthodox/tradtionalist vs. non-traditionalist/unorthodox long before it ever reaches the power that Christianity has; and that level of power is necessary for wide-scale badness to begin.

That being said, I think that even if we get our act together and stop fighting with each other, we're a bit far back in the line for world-dominating empire. Islam's up next.

[Woodwose]

I think that the inherent nature of the Neo-Pagan movement - be it Wicca, Asatru, Druidism, or whatever - being the sort of make it up as you go along, and believe whatever you want to believe type of spiritual movement will prevent Neo-Pagans from ever being able to organize into any kind of authoritarian force to be reckoned with. Neo-Pagans are, by nature, non-conformists, and it is rare when you can find any two individuals in the Pagan community who believe in exactly the same things. Neo-Paganism and the religions that fall under its umbrella lack anything approaching a universal doctrine that all members agree upon as being a divine and unquestionable truth. We are a very diverse group whose members are reluctant to relinquish their personal interpretations of their spiritual belief system and place their faith in some guru who has all the answers.

[Glowingsun]

I think it will end up the same way it did before. It's going to continue to be misunderstood because of a few bad apples and another witch hunt will be attempted. Whether successfully or not, i don't know. Then some one will come along and revive it once more.

[AJwins]

I think it will end up the same way it did before. It's going to continue to be misunderstood because of a few bad apples and another witch hunt will be attempted. Whether successfully or not, i don't know. Then some one will come along and revive it once more.

I don't think the neopagan movement is misunderstood due to bad apples, I think its the fact that many of us flaunt being pagans and witches in a largely Ambrahamic society.

Also, what do you mean by "another" witch hunt? I mean, there's never been a vast, Wicca-targeting holocaust.

As they say "Never in the first place the burning times".

[aluokaloo]

of course. all religions are corruptable and don't forget that pagans way back in the past weren't white and shiny saints. neither power nor religion corrupts, people corrupt and as long as there are greedy, power-hungry, bigoted etc. etc people in the world theres bound to be corruption.

[AJwins]

of course. all religions are corruptable and don't forget that pagans way back in the past weren't white and shiny saints. neither power nor religion corrupts, people corrupt and as long as there are greedy, power-hungry, bigoted etc. etc people in the world theres bound to be corruption.

I think you bring up a really good point. We neopagans have a tendancy to idolize ancient pagans as being pure, shiny children of the earth, and forget all the sexism, intolerance, rape, murder, pillaging, human sacrifice and such that our enlightened ancestors loved to engage in.

Folks is still folks, after all.

[Dewduster]

I don't think the neopagan movement is misunderstood due to bad apples, I think its the fact that many of us flaunt being pagans and witches in a largely Ambrahamic society.

Also, what do you mean by "another" witch hunt? I mean, there's never been a vast, Wicca-targeting holocaust.

As they say "Never in the first place the burning times".

Are you joking? I am very new to MysticWicks Online Pagan Community (http://mysticwicks.com/index.php)and I never understood the reason for such a believe. Please explain to a newbe why you believe as you seem to believe. You can be brief just the basics.

[Lunacie]

I think you bring up a really good point. We neopagans have a tendancy to idolize ancient pagans as being pure, shiny children of the earth, and forget all the sexism, intolerance, rape, murder, pillaging, human sacrifice and such that our enlightened ancestors loved to engage in.

Folks is still folks, after all.

This, I can agree with.

Although I think that all cultures tend to revere their ancestors whether deserving or not. Show me any culture or religion that didn't indulge in those kinds of things in the past.




I don't think the neopagan movement is misunderstood due to bad apples, I think its the fact that many of us flaunt being pagans and witches in a largely Ambrahamic society.

Also, what do you mean by "another" witch hunt? I mean, there's never been a vast, Wicca-targeting holocaust.

As they say "Never in the first place the burning times".

Are you joking? I am very new to MysticWicks Online Pagan Community (http://mysticwicks.com/index.php)and I never understood the reason for such a believe. Please explain to a newbe why you believe as you seem to believe. You can be brief just the basics.

Here, I will agree with Dewduster. I think in any culture or religion it's the loudmouth jerks who draw the most negative kind of attention, not the simply flamboyant ones.

But I do agree that there has never been a real Witch (much less Wiccan) hunt, that was just a handy label to use for the real agenda.

[Sionnach le Fey]

anything that involves people, has the potential to be corrupted.

qft.

[Dewduster]

Originally Posted by AJwins http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3822072#post3822072)
I don't think the neopagan movement is misunderstood due to bad apples, I think its the fact that many of us flaunt being pagans and witches in a largely Ambrahamic society.


Dewduster...As a retired History teacher in Texas, I want to point out that I never felt that I could even hint that I was a witch who very seriously and devoutly worshiped The Goddess. I think that it is ignorance, that is the very definition of prejudice, that is the obvious cause of misunderstandings.





But I do agree that there has never been a real Witch (much less Wiccan) hunt, that was just a handy label to use for the real agenda.


. Because of Etymology, the study of the history of words, serious and accredited, scholars and historiansare able to trace the words Wiccan(a verb that could mean either male or female Witch or both, plural) Wicca ( male Witch) and Wicce (female Witch) back to old English. Not only were these words in use, they were used in a positive way; as in wise. Wiccan were wise ones in rural medieval England. They were healers, herbalists, midwifes and political leaders (read the English Magna Carta of Chester called judices de wich/Judges who were Witches). Because these words existed and were used we know these people existed in the times of old English. These same Wiccan were Priest and Priestess of rural areas of old England, where the authority of Catholic influence had yet to reach, country people still worshiped the old/very old religions, and were rightly called PAGAN. [ ) Pagans, as in Webster’s New World College Dictionary. Fourth Edition“ pagan…a person who worships nature or the earth…”,


The Inquisition may have started as a way to keep Catholics who had strayed from the Church but soon spread like wildfire to include Jews and later the religious leaders of existing Older Pagan religious leaders who were wise who were Wiccan.
As the Inquisition spread it became out of control or rather in control of by the local authorities who saw the advantage to take control and use the Inquisition for their own gain, both personal an economically.

Wiccan were killed off to such a degree that NO single group is know to have survived the Inquisition times that went from the 13th century to the 18th century. Not ONE.


Please forgive me if this seems a rant. I’m reacting to a horror able claim that ALL these wise people didn’t exist, were not killed in mass. The same as a Jewish person would react to a KKK claim that the Holocaust in Germany did not exist. I am Wicca/male Witch. I have been embraced by our Holly Mother. I will soon die with my spirit longing for my Holy Mothers touch. Blessed BE.

[Lunacie]

Originally Posted by AJwins http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3822072#post3822072)
I don't think the neopagan movement is misunderstood due to bad apples, I think its the fact that many of us flaunt being pagans and witches in a largely Ambrahamic society.


Dewduster...As a retired History teacher in Texas, I want to point out that I never felt that I could even hint that I was a witch who very seriously and devoutly worshiped The Goddess. I think that it is ignorance, that is the very definition of prejudice, that is the obvious cause of misunderstandings.





. Because of Etymology, the study of the history of words, serious and accredited, scholars and historiansare able to trace the words Wiccan(a verb that could mean either male or female Witch or both, plural) Wicca ( male Witch) and Wicce (female Witch) back to old English. Not only were these words in use, they were used in a positive way; as in wise. Wiccan were wise ones in rural medieval England. They were healers, herbalists, midwifes and political leaders (read the English Magna Carta of Chester called judices de wich/Judges who were Witches). Because these words existed and were used we know these people existed in the times of old English. These same Wiccan were Priest and Priestess of rural areas of old England, where the authority of Catholic influence had yet to reach, country people still worshiped the old/very old religions, and were rightly called PAGAN. [ ) Pagans, as in Webster’s New World College Dictionary. Fourth Edition“ pagan…a person who worships nature or the earth…”,


The Inquisition may have started as a way to keep Catholics who had strayed from the Church but soon spread like wildfire to include Jews and later the religious leaders of existing Older Pagan religious leaders who were wise who were Wiccan.
As the Inquisition spread it became out of control or rather in control of by the local authorities who saw the advantage to take control and use the Inquisition for their own gain, both personal an economically.

Wiccan were killed off to such a degree that NO single group is know to have survived the Inquisition times that went from the 13th century to the 18th century. Not ONE.


Please forgive me if this seems a rant. I’m reacting to a horror able claim that ALL these wise people didn’t exist, were not killed in mass. The same as a Jewish person would react to a KKK claim that the Holocaust in Germany did not exist. I am Wicca/male Witch. I have been embraced by our Holly Mother. I will soon die with my spirit longing for my Holy Mothers touch. Blessed BE.

I thought all that had been pretty much disproved. If you have some evidence of a "Witch Holocaust" I'm sure we'd all appreciate having a chance to look it over.

[Darth Brooks]

Everything corrupts, including our very own bodies. It is the way of things. If it weren't for decay, there would never be any fresh fruit.

[Dio]

Anything and everything is corruptible. Anytime you get a group of humans together, it is succeptible to corruption. We humans can't help ourselves.

[Dewduster]

I thought all that had been pretty much disproved. If you have some evidence of a "Witch Holocaust" I'm sure we'd all appreciate having a chance to look it over.


Who disproved our Holocaust? Did any one inform our accredited, scholars and historian. I'm only a retired history teacher with degrees in History, Political Science and Education. I took my last class in advance history last 1998 at UTEP and we talked about the ""Witch Holocaust".
I have spent my life studying our History and was not aware that our history had been disproved out side of the acadimic world. I'll admit that the last time I was in an "Occult" shop was in the 60s so I really don't know what’s been going on out side my little world.

You ask for evidence??? I just gave you a boat load.

Seriously, did you read my last post January 15th, 2009 03:43 PM?

Let us start with the Etymology evidence. You statedOriginally: Posted by LunacieBut I do agree that there has never been a real Witch (much less Wiccan) hunt, that was just a handy label to use for the real agenda.

Has not the very language of ye old English prove that we existed? What do think happen to all those pre Christen/Catholic Pagans and their Preist/Prestess? Please reread what I’ve written.

You appeal for evidence. Start with the word Wiccan...you stated that their never was a witch, much less Wiccan, hunt. What do you think happen to all these Pagans and Wiccan who lived before the Catholic ? Please start with the simple word Wiccan, Look it up in any accredited book of Etymology.

[Lunacie]

Mmkay, I believe I should have asked you to present your evidence for a "witch holocaust" in a whole new thread as I can't see what revelance it has for the topic of this thread.

Although I believe it has already been discussed many times perhaps you have something different to add, so please feel free to start a new thread for this discussion. Or perhaps I shall.

And so I return you to the scheduled topic.

[Twinkle]

Gods Thomas....quit with the facts already.:toofless:

In any event....to go back to the original topic, I'd have to agee with what most have said here...that any time anything has humans involved in it...it can be corrupted.

[Dewduster]

And so I return you to the scheduled topic.

Paganism Corruptable? . ... Future tense? Pagans are not even Pagan today.
) Pagans, as in Webster’s New World College Dictionary. Fourth Edition“ pagan…a person who worships nature or the earth…”,

Many call themselves "pagan" but don't worship nature or (Mother) earth.

Corruption: Webster’s New World College Dictionary. Fourth Edition “Corruption...as an improperly altered word..."

See above. I'm just saying Paganism is already corrupted by some people who have changed the basic word to suite their immediate needs.

[Philosophia]

From http://dictionary.reference.com/

Pagan

pa⋅gan
   /ˈpeɪgən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pey-guhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.
–adjective
4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.
6. irreligious or hedonistic.
Origin:
1325–75; ME < ML, LL pāgānus worshiper of false gods, orig. civilian (i.e., not a soldier of Christ), L: peasant, n. use of pāgānus rural, civilian, deriv. of pāgus village, rural district (akin to pangere to fix, make fast); see -an1

(from Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.)

pa·gan (pā'gən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially an adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity.
2. A Neo-Pagan.
3. Offensive
1. One who has no religion.
2. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.


[Middle English, from Late Latin pāgānus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pāgus, country, rural district; see pag- in Indo-European roots.]
pa'gan adj., pa'gan·dom (-dəm) n., pa'gan·ish adj., pa'gan·ism n.

(from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)

Paganism

pa⋅gan⋅ism
   /ˈpeɪgəˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pey-guh-niz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. pagan spirit or attitude in religious or moral questions.
2. the beliefs or practices of pagans.
3. the state of being a pagan.
Origin:
1400–50; late ME pāgānysme < LL pāgānismus, equiv. to L pāgān(us) pagan + -ismus -ism

(Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.)

pa·gan (pā'gən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially an adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity.
2. A Neo-Pagan.
3. Offensive
1. One who has no religion.
2. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.


[Middle English, from Late Latin pāgānus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pāgus, country, rural district; see pag- in Indo-European roots.]
pa'gan adj., pa'gan·dom (-dəm) n., pa'gan·ish adj., pa'gan·ism n.

(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. )

In other words, if we're going by dictionary definitions, you don't have to worship nature or the earth to be classed as Pagan.

[Darth Brooks]

In other words, if we're going by dictionary definitions, you don't have to worship nature or the earth to be classed as Pagan.

QFT. I might also add that the idea of "worshiping Nature" is a very interesting concept to me. Some people who talk about "worshiping Nature" seem to be talking about recycling their trash and throwing themselves in front of bulldozers or something along those lines. But Nature ain't all Ferngully, now. Like it or not, but computers, toxic waste, serial killers, nuclear holocausts, and rape are just as much a part of Nature as trees and meadows and bunny rabbits. One can start the whole argument that these things come from human beings, not from Nature itself - but where does one think human beings come from? (And how does one explain all the nasty things that dolphins do?)

So, if a pagan is expected to be a person who worships Nature...Well, that does not always paint the hippy-go-lucky utopian picture in my mind that it apparently does in the minds of others. As a matter of fact, I think it can be taken to mean almost anything. In which case, the argument that "Most pagans aren't really pagan" completely disintegrates into subatomic chaos.

[Dewduster]

From http://dictionary.reference.com/

Pagan

In other words, if we're going by dictionary definitions, you don't have to worship nature or the earth to be classed as Pagan.

HA! Ye new internet…http://dictionary.reference.com/ has the latest, modern definition of what today’s people want to call pagan.

Note that I said the definition has changed. Just like many,many other words.
Words like Priest, changed from their old English meaning from Latin presbter” elder”. In old English the word sacerd was usually applied to a heathen …elder/priest “The Catholic Church picked up the respected name for elder religious leaders because the Church wanted the elders' respect! (Ha again, Elder don’t get so much to day) , to give credibility to newer institution. And what do you think happen to those old respected religious heathen leaders after their very name was stolen?... Back to topic… Similar to today’s pagans I think.

Pagan referred to country dwellers, who lived outside the Church’s influence, who had not accepted the new State Religion. They were Pagan, they worshiped the old gods of nature of Mother Earth.( and again, what happen to these pagans?)

Of topic for a moment…

Note here that most so called cuss words that demean the status of women were once Holy, sacred words of high honor. Pick a few and look them up for your self. I don’t know if the internet can do it but ye old library has a section called Etymology that can blow my little mind. Look up the once sacred word Whore and you will understand.

[ffetcher]

Dewduster said


Note that I said the definition has changed. Just like many,many other words.

...

Pagan referred to country dwellers, who lived outside the Church’s influence, who had not accepted the new State Religion. They were Pagan, they worshiped the old gods of nature of Mother Earth.( and again, what happen to these pagans?) Yes, they were referred to in Roman-dominated areas as 'pagan' because they had not adopted the official state religion and later yes, the meaning changed to be anyone who wasn't Christian when that became the official state religion. But it's a great leap, and thus a gross over-simplification, to go from there to the idea that all the myriad cults that weren't part of the state religion worshipped old gods of nature.

Granted, most did, because fertility, rocks. ponds, trees etc are probably the most obvious and therefore probably the oldest things to worship, and presumably you include sun, moon and stars, which I see as being part of nature but distinct from Mother Earth. But I find Mars difficult to reconcile there, for example, nor any of the minor deities that protected a city from nature.

I was going to say that they all revered nature, but even that's not strictly true: I'd suggest that they all respected nature but that's not the same as worshipping it. In my opinion...


They were Pagan, and in the main they worshiped the old gods of nature of Mother Earth....is probably a better representation of what the term meant in Roman times.

blessings
ffetcher

[Lunacie]

Paganism Corruptable? . ... Future tense? Pagans are not even Pagan today.
) Pagans, as in Webster’s New World College Dictionary. Fourth Edition“ pagan…a person who worships nature or the earth…”,

Many call themselves "pagan" but don't worship nature or (Mother) earth.

Corruption: Webster’s New World College Dictionary. Fourth Edition “Corruption...as an improperly altered word..."

See above. I'm just saying Paganism is already corrupted by some people who have changed the basic word to suite their immediate needs.

I'm going to agree with the others here who say that Pagans of old worshipped the GODS of Nature, not necessarily Nature itself. As we became more of an industrial society rather than an agricultural one, we lost that connection with and dependence on Nature, and therefore lost our fear/reverence/awe of the Gods of Nature as well. Can't blame it all on "the State Religion."

Everything changes, even religions. Change does not necessarily indicate corruption though, except in the minds of fundamentalists.

[Lunacie]

QFT. I might also add that the idea of "worshiping Nature" is a very interesting concept to me. Some people who talk about "worshiping Nature" seem to be talking about recycling their trash and throwing themselves in front of bulldozers or something along those lines. But Nature ain't all Ferngully, now. Like it or not, but computers, toxic waste, serial killers, nuclear holocausts, and rape are just as much a part of Nature as trees and meadows and bunny rabbits. One can start the whole argument that these things come from human beings, not from Nature itself - but where does one think human beings come from? (And how does one explain all the nasty things that dolphins do?)

So, if a pagan is expected to be a person who worships Nature...Well, that does not always paint the hippy-go-lucky utopian picture in my mind that it apparently does in the minds of others. As a matter of fact, I think it can be taken to mean almost anything. In which case, the argument that "Most pagans aren't really pagan" completely disintegrates into subatomic chaos.

Yes, indeed. Nature isn't just lovely growing things. It's also the destruction and corruption that takes place in order for new things to grow. Sometimes it takes a forest fire to clear out the undergrowth that is choking out the life of the forest itself, eh?

As above, so below. As within, so without. Those who honor Nature in all it's glory (i.e. Pagans) understand that we cannot create something without destroying something else first. As a seamstress I know that the cloth first comes from a plant that is harvested (killed), then broken down into thread, then woven into cloth, then CUT into shapes which are then sewn together to make a garment. Wow! I created something. But first something had to be 'destroyed.'

[Phoenix Blue]

Who disproved our Holocaust? Did any one inform our accredited, scholars and historian. I'm only a retired history teacher with degrees in History, Political Science and Education. I took my last class in advance history last 1998 at UTEP and we talked about the ""Witch Holocaust".
Who disproved it? That would be Ronald Hutton. Maybe you've heard of him.

Wicca is approximately 60 years old. I don't know why people feel a need to make a case for it being older than that. It's not like religions become any more credible with age.


Pagan referred to country dwellers, who lived outside the Church’s influence, who had not accepted the new State Religion. They were Pagan, they worshiped the old gods of nature of Mother Earth.( and again, what happen to these pagans?)
They started attending church when Christianity adapted their practices and gods -- the former into new Christian traditions, the latter into saints. Hate to tell you, man, but ideological purity didn't mean much to most folks back then, and it doesn't mean a whole lot to people today.

[Dewduster]

Yes, indeed. Nature isn't just lovely growing things. It's also the destruction and corruption that takes place in order for new things to grow. Sometimes it takes a forest fire to clear out the undergrowth that is choking out the life of the forest itself, eh?

As above, so below. As within, so without. Those who honor Nature in all it's glory (i.e. Pagans) understand that we cannot create something without destroying something else first. As a seamstress I know that the cloth first comes from a plant that is harvested (killed), then broken down into thread, then woven into cloth, then CUT into shapes which are then sewn together to make a garment. Wow! I created something. But first something had to be 'destroyed.'


+1, yes indeed, There are many aspects of nature. Pagans did worship the moon and were aware that the moon changed from new moon, to full, to the dark of the moon. I believe that pagans understood that our creator had many many aspects.

Instead of believing in one god who represented all that was good and blaming the devil for all that is seen as evil.

The one aspect of the moon that is not fully honored today is the dark of the moon. Example; It is difficult to find a calendar that depicts the dark of the moon. The new moon is usually placed were the dark should be. More to the point, I’ve observed that some witches and many other pagans are hesitant to embrace the dark Goddess for whom the dark of the moon represents

In cultures’ today that wait for the first sighting of the new moon to start a religious holiday young men will climb to the highest height to be the first to observe the first slice of light reflected from the moon.

[Dewduster]

Who disproved it? That would be Ronald Hutton. Maybe you've heard of him.

Wicca is approximately 60 years old. I don't know why people feel a need to make a case for it being older than that. It's not like religions become any more credible with age.


They started attending church when Christianity adapted their practices and gods -- the former into new Christian traditions, the latter into saints. Hate to tell you, man, but ideological purity didn't mean much to most folks back then, and it doesn't mean a whole lot to people today.

I agree with Ronald Hutton and other historians who write of “…The period of witch trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials) in Early Modern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_Europe) ... The theory notably gave rise to several neopagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) religions, such as Wicca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca) and Stregheria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stregheria) in the 20th century.”
(Wikipeda)

The “witch” trails of the 15th century were a terrible miscarriage of justice. An elder women would stop by or even try to help with a birth ( midwife?) and if the baby died then the elder midwife might be accused of witchcraft, whether she was a witch or not made no different. etc.

Part of our difficulty in understanding each other (What we have here…is …a …Failure…to commutate!) is the psycholinguist altering of the key words witch and wicca (I am Wiccan and I am Wicca, and I’m 65). The word Wicca is part of the language of old English, Hundreds of years before any neopagan lay claim to the word.

1st the word witch before the witch trails of the 15th century was defined in old English as wise.

2nd during the trails of the 15th century the word seems to mean (no pun intended) some one that we can blame our troubles on.

“Hate to tell you, man, but ideological purity didn't mean much to most folks back then…” Please don’t talk to me in a condescending tone. You are insulting the truly great number of humans who have given their lives for all there religious and/or political believes.

[Lunacie]

I agree with Ronald Hutton and other historians who write of “…The period of witch trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials) in Early Modern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_Europe) ... The theory notably gave rise to several neopagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) religions, such as Wicca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca) and Stregheria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stregheria) in the 20th century.”
(Wikipeda)

The “witch” trails of the 15th century were a terrible miscarriage of justice. An elder women would stop by or even try to help with a birth ( midwife?) and if the baby died then the elder midwife might be accused of witchcraft, whether she was a witch or not made no different. etc.

Part of our difficulty in understanding each other (What we have here…is …a …Failure…to commutate!) is the psycholinguist altering of the key words witch and wicca (I am Wiccan and I am Wicca, and I’m 65). The word Wicca is part of the language of old English, Hundreds of years before any neopagan lay claim to the word.

1st the word witch before the witch trails of the 15th century was defined in old English as wise.

2nd during the trails of the 15th century the word seems to mean (no pun intended) some one that we can blame our troubles on.

“Hate to tell you, man, but ideological purity didn't mean much to most folks back then…” Please don’t talk to me in a condescending tone. You are insulting the truly great number of humans who have given their lives for all there religious and/or political believes.

See... you really need to start a whole new thread for this as it's :fofftopic

[Phoenix Blue]

See... you really need to start a whole new thread for this as it's :fofftopic
If you want to start a thread on it, you do it. Complaining about it here is even more off-topic.

[Dewduster]

See... you really need to start a whole new thread for this as it's :fofftopic



I ans. your statement..."Who disproved it? That would be Ronald Hutton. Maybe you've heard of him" The topic is Paganism Corruptable? . ... and I am on topic as stated ...I'm just saying Paganism is already corrupted by some people who have changed the basic word to suite their immediate needs." How can I be off topic. I just ans. your statment about Ronald Hutton and said"I agree with Ronald Hutton ". We are talking about the psycholinguist altering of the key words witch and wicca, in fact a corruption of pagan words and believe of Paganism. Are you not interested in an honest discussion of the truth?

[Darth Brooks]

+1, yes indeed, There are many aspects of nature. Pagans did worship the moon and were aware that the moon changed from new moon, to full, to the dark of the moon. I believe that pagans understood that our creator had many many aspects.

Instead of believing in one god who represented all that was good and blaming the devil for all that is seen as evil.

I have to disagree here. Contrary to what you might think, Christianity did not just pull the idea of a "good god" and an "evil devil" out of a black hole. In actuality, this theological motif shows up in a few pagan religions long before Christianity - or even Judaism, as it is recognized today - even developed. Set, for instance, originally started out as a positive deity who just happened to represent the dark side of nature, and who was the brother and equal of Horus. Set was also identified with anything that was foreign to the Egyptian state and culture. But after the re-unification of Egypt by the solar cults, and the subsequent invasions of Egypt by foreign powers, Set became a scapegoat for practically anything the Egyptians were afraid of - from earthquakes droughts and lunar/solar eclipses to the presence of foreigners in Egypt (e.g., the Hyksos, the Hebrews, etc.). Set's equality with Horus was downplayed and later forgotten, and Set was later re-cast in Egyptian theology as the "evil uncle" of Horus who is the supreme enemy of all that is "good" and "pure." Here we have one of the very oldest cases of a god who was turned into a devil by the Powers That Were, and it happened long before "Christianity" was ever a word.

I might also point out Zoroastrianism as an example; here we have a dualistic religion which was among the first to posit that all of creation is caught in an eternal war between the Good God and the Evil Devil. Zoroastrianism has been around much longer than Christianity, and many historians even recognize it as having had a great deal of influence on Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Yet Zoroastrianism is not one of the three Abrahamic religions, and in some cases it has even been considered a pagan religion. It is proof positive, however, that the dualistic notion of a good god versus an evil devil predates the appearance of such ideas in Judaism, and it also predates Christianity and Islam. So you can't really blame the monotheists for having come up with this idea. Like it or not, but the "God versus Devil" idea is just about as pagan as anything else.

And monotheism is not exactly non-pagan either. Case in point: Akhenaten and the cult of the Aten.


The one aspect of the moon that is not fully honored today is the dark of the moon. Example; It is difficult to find a calendar that depicts the dark of the moon. The new moon is usually placed were the dark should be. More to the point, I’ve observed that some witches and many other pagans are hesitant to embrace the dark Goddess for whom the dark of the moon represents


In cultures’ today that wait for the first sighting of the new moon to start a religious holiday young men will climb to the highest height to be the first to observe the first slice of light reflected from the moon. I dare say that more people know about the dark of the moon and the dark Goddess than they do about the Constellation of the Thigh or its calendar. And what about those pagan cultures that viewed the moon as masculine? I hardly ever hear anybody praise Thoth or Osiris when they see the moon.

[Lunacie]

I ans. your statement..."Who disproved it? That would be Ronald Hutton. Maybe you've heard of him" The topic is Paganism Corruptable? . ... and I am on topic as stated ...I'm just saying Paganism is already corrupted by some people who have changed the basic word to suite their immediate needs." How can I be off topic. I just ans. your statment about Ronald Hutton and said"I agree with Ronald Hutton ". We are talking about the psycholinguist altering of the key words witch and wicca, in fact a corruption of pagan words and believe of Paganism. Are you not interested in an honest discussion of the truth?

I didn't ask you to disprove anything, and I didn't say anything about Hutton, you seem to be getting a little bit confused. :weirdsmil

I understand that the words "pagan", "witch" and "wica" have been around for a long time. I also understand that those words don't mean exactly the same things in general usage now that they did back when you say people were being burned - because of what those labels meant at that time.

I believe the original purpose of the Inquisition became perverted and much broader than it was intended to be - that's what happens with hate speech and condemning those who have different beliefs.

I don't agree that the natural changes in the meaning of words and phrases over a long period of time is the same thing as "corruption" of what those words are used to label. Therefore I don't agree that you're talking about "corruption" as it was addressed in the OP.

I could be wrong, your mileage may vary, yadda yadda yadda ...

[Lunacie]

If you want to start a thread on it, you do it. Complaining about it here is even more off-topic.

Addressing my complaint within the thread is just as off-topic.
TAG.

[SphinYote]

*Giggles*

Has the thread become corrupted?

All religions and spiritualities change.

Does that mean that change is the equivalent corruption?

Likewise differing interpretations in general?

There are constant debates on Christianity (and every religion for that matter), on what is the true meaning and what is corrupted and heretical.

All religions have always been corrupted as soon as there was more than one person practicing said religion (or spiritual path).

[*~Amora~*]

Does anyone else worry bout the pagan movement eventually following the same corruptable path as the christians did. When christianity started out it was the underdog, a small up and coming faith with a lot of really good people with good ideas, who generally wanted to help. As it grew it evolved and as it got larger, stronger, more powerfull, the men at the top became twisted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So my question is does anyone think they could see this happening to our people especially with some of our large formal tradtions like the Correllian tradition (please note that im using this as an example because of the the size and history of this tradtion and do not seek to insult anyone).

You need to define the term "corrupt" before we can really talk about this.

[Dewduster]

.

I don't agree that the natural changes in the meaning of words and phrases over a long period of time is the same thing as "corruption" of what those words are used to label. Therefore I don't agree that you're talking about "corruption" as it was addressed in the OP.
...

Of course, "natural" changes over long periods are not the same as corruption. I agree. :thumbsup: Neopagans claimed they were "wicca" overnight. For reasons that seemed adventitious to them. That is corruption.

[Philosophia]

HA! Ye new internet…http://dictionary.reference.com/ has the latest, modern definition of what today’s people want to call pagan.

Which is what I showed.


Note that I said the definition has changed. Just like many,many other words.
Words like Priest, changed from their old English meaning from Latin presbter” elder”. In old English the word sacerd was usually applied to a heathen …elder/priest “The Catholic Church picked up the respected name for elder religious leaders because the Church wanted the elders' respect! (Ha again, Elder don’t get so much to day) , to give credibility to newer institution. And what do you think happen to those old respected religious heathen leaders after their very name was stolen?... Back to topic… Similar to today’s pagans I think.

Language is rarely ever solid but fluid to fit with the ever changing society that surrounds us. You're described the original meaning of a word (which, btw, is Paganus, meaning "country dweller, rustic" where it was considered an insult). Whether it happened as you described it via the Catholic Church really depends upon your perspective of history. Rarely do things happen within a vacuum so I would put forward that there were a lot of different factors involved in it.


Pagan referred to country dwellers, who lived outside the Church’s influence, who had not accepted the new State Religion. They were Pagan, they worshiped the old gods of nature of Mother Earth.( and again, what happen to
these pagans?)

While I agree that Paganus means country dweller, I disagree with the rest. They didn't just worship only the gods of nature. They worshiped a lot of different deities that may or may not have anything to do with nature. In the past, a lot of Pagans didn't care much about it except for how it would impact on it's farming and growth (which is why the changing seasons were openly celebrated). They didn't know of "mother earth" (which they named differently).


Note here that most so called cuss words that demean the status of women were once Holy, sacred words of high honor. Pick a few and look them up for your self. I don’t know if the internet can do it but ye old library has a section called Etymology that can blow my little mind. Look up the once sacred word Whore and you will understand.

Since I love etymology, I do know about those cuss words but thank you for reminding me.

[Dewduster]

[quote=Philosophia;3834230]
... In the past, a lot of Pagans didn't care much about it except for how it would impact on it's farming and growth (which is why the changing seasons were openly celebrated). They didn't know of "mother earth" (which they named differently).

[ If they named her differently they still knew her]

People of most religions care very much indeed about the gods they hold in esteem even when they might appear to have little to do with farming. Why would they be different prier to Christianity? The gods may personify aspects of life other than simple farming such as love, war or even travel.


Seasonal change effects farming more than most aspects of nature.( what was your point?) Nature is life. And life is part of nature. I think you have fallen into the same trap that you have pointed out that I may fallen into when you wrote that there are many points of view and change may be related to things you or I have not considered. Of course, ALL this goes back to the original thread which is asking if Paganism is subject to corruption.

[Dewduster]

Topic Alert!!!

The Correllian Crack-Up (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

Last week, the ever press-hungry WitchSchool (http://www.witchschool.com/) sent out yet another press release. (http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2006/10/emw445171.htm) It announced that Don Lewis (http://www.correllian.com/donlewis.htm) (head of the Correllian Tradition (http://www.correllian.com/)) was the new President of Witch School. I didn’t think this internal shift was a newsworthy item and went about my daily blogging duties. But then I found out that this seemingly innocuous personnel change was the result of a much deeper schism within the Correllian Tradition. A tale that involves financial issues, power struggles, looming litigation, and Satanism!
http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

See original OP!!! Now we Know. The ans. is YES!!!

[Modesty]

Everything corrupts. It's just how each person takes it.

[Phoenix Blue]

Topic Alert!!!

The Correllian Crack-Up (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

Last week, the ever press-hungry WitchSchool (http://www.witchschool.com/) sent out yet another press release. (http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2006/10/emw445171.htm) It announced that Don Lewis (http://www.correllian.com/donlewis.htm) (head of the Correllian Tradition (http://www.correllian.com/)) was the new President of Witch School. I didn’t think this internal shift was a newsworthy item and went about my daily blogging duties. But then I found out that this seemingly innocuous personnel change was the result of a much deeper schism within the Correllian Tradition. A tale that involves financial issues, power struggles, looming litigation, and Satanism!
http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

See original OP!!! Now we Know. The ans. is YES!!!
That's odd. I don't feel like it's corrupted my Paganism any.

[Dewduster]

That's odd. I don't feel like it's corrupted my Paganism any.

Good for you! :boing: See OP.

[Darth Brooks]

Topic Alert!!!

The Correllian Crack-Up (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

Last week, the ever press-hungry WitchSchool (http://www.witchschool.com/) sent out yet another press release. (http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2006/10/emw445171.htm) It announced that Don Lewis (http://www.correllian.com/donlewis.htm) (head of the Correllian Tradition (http://www.correllian.com/)) was the new President of Witch School. I didn’t think this internal shift was a newsworthy item and went about my daily blogging duties. But then I found out that this seemingly innocuous personnel change was the result of a much deeper schism within the Correllian Tradition. A tale that involves financial issues, power struggles, looming litigation, and Satanism!
http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

See original OP!!! Now we Know. The ans. is YES!!!

Firstly, I don't find anything surprising about schisms within traditions and churches and what-not. This is an entirely natural occurrence and is merely a part of how religions mutate and evolve over time. In fact, sometimes schisms can even be a good thing in that they make it harder for the authoritarians in a religion to control how their fellow believers can believe and/or practice. For instance, although I respect both Catholics and Protestants alike, I do believe the Protestant Reformation was a good thing, in that it helped to take Christianity out of the hands of a single group of leaders and into the hands of every Joe Blow across Western Europe. If it hadn't been for such schisms, Christianity might not have calmed down and matured as much as it has. (And anyone who says that it hasn't has one hell of a thesis to prove.)

Secondly, in the article you posted, it says in one breath that Correllians don't condemn Satanism, and in the next breath it says they "condemn any real or apparent connection between Satanism and any group calling itself Correllian." Well it is every group's prerogative to decide how they're going to run things for themselves, but it doesn't make sense to say that you don't condemn another group of people, you only condemn having any "connections" with them. That's pretty much saying the exact same thing as far as I'm concerned, just with different words. The tone of your post would seem to indicate that you feel any involvement in Correllianism by Satanists is a sign of corruption, but I think it's actually the other way around. What I find corrupt about this is that they want to be a "No Satanists Club" while turning around and pretending to be respectful to the other party. Something smells real bad about that to me; perhaps the Correllians are in need of a good, healthy schism. Or, perhaps I am misinterpreting the language that was used in the article.

Thirdly, the only Correllian I've ever known is Han Solo, so that should give you some idea of how much I actually know about Correllianism. :)

[NefertSatSekhmet]

Topic Alert!!!

The Correllian Crack-Up (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

Last week, the ever press-hungry WitchSchool (http://www.witchschool.com/) sent out yet another press release. (http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2006/10/emw445171.htm) It announced that Don Lewis (http://www.correllian.com/donlewis.htm) (head of the Correllian Tradition (http://www.correllian.com/)) was the new President of Witch School. I didn’t think this internal shift was a newsworthy item and went about my daily blogging duties. But then I found out that this seemingly innocuous personnel change was the result of a much deeper schism within the Correllian Tradition. A tale that involves financial issues, power struggles, looming litigation, and Satanism!
http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html (http://wildhunt.org/blog/2006/10/correllian-crack-up.html)

See original OP!!! Now we Know. The ans. is YES!!!

Did anyone else notice that the reference to "last week" was actually made in October 2006? Many organizations go through growing pains. Why bring up this old news again?

[Lunacie]

Of course, "natural" changes over long periods are not the same as corruption. I agree. :thumbsup: Neopagans claimed they were "wicca" overnight. For reasons that seemed adventitious to them. That is corruption.

I don't see that as corrupting Wicca in any way. It's just people who are too lazy to find out what Wicca really is and to practice it in the way it was meant to be practiced. That doesn't affect those of us who do know what Wicca really is and practice it properly. Wicca itself has not been corrupted, the public view of Wicca has been tainted.

Not that the public view of Wicca has ever been entirely positive, eh?