African blood and inclusion into the path?

[LithiumViolets]

I know we've had this discussion a thousand times to various different threads relating to different Paths/Pantheons but I was reading this comment on a forum where they were discussion the Orishas and it was implied that if you weren't of African descent, you couldn't claim an Orisha as your head...I don't necessarily agree with this. My view is, I feel that through bloodlines and cultural upbringing, we may have a certain EASE with certain blood-specific paths (for example, a person of Irish descent may find it easier to appropriate the ideals and work more readily with the elements of a Druidic path or the Celtic gods or even Celtic forms of divination may come easier to them than, say, cowrie shell divination in the African paths or I Ching) BUT if we choose or feel a drawing to a path that is not in our bloodline, that's fine too.


Anyway, the comment the person made is here:


My mother is Oya but my head Orisa is Sango. Oya is definitely one for Afrikan people to stay in good with and it seems as if you are in favor with her. If you have any direct questions you would like to ask me concerning Oya or your dream please feel free to pm me.

It was Oya who ushered in the degrees of change and revolution whereas Afrikans freed themselves from the yoke of white/crakkka oppression. I am honored to be her son. I am also honored that she states clearly to me that true freedom of Afrikan people from ALL WHITES can only come from HER revolutionary spirit. She also states that there are NO white people from no place on this globe that have an Afrikan deity, a relationship with an Afrikan deity, or can even worship an Afrikan deity.

the thread is here: link removed

note: I am not a member of this thread, I just found it googling Oya...



What are your thoughts?

[patch]

I think it depends on a number of things.
Some pantheons are oathbound to their people, so without blood ties to genuinely have no connection to the deities.

But for others it's purely opinion. I'm afraid I don't know enough to comment in this instance.

[aranarose]

Well, if you take an evolutionary view of life, we ALL have African blood in our veins :) Which means that everyone has claim to the traditions!

I think that our culture can make it easier to connect to certain deities, as can our genetic heritage, but ultimately, it's our souls that make the connection a yes or a no.

[LithiumViolets]

Well, if you take an evolutionary view of life, we ALL have African blood in our veins :) Which means that everyone has claim to the traditions!

I think that our culture can make it easier to connect to certain deities, as can our genetic heritage, but ultimately, it's our souls that make the connection a yes or a no.


yes! I totally agree :)

[Garm]

It was Oya who ushered in the degrees of change and revolution whereas Afrikans freed themselves from the yoke of white/crakkka oppression.

Uh "crakkka?"

This is not the name of some obscure deity

Like seriously why even give politically driven UPG this much regard?

You don't have to be white to think like a Nazi

[~Elise~]

I think it is complete and utter BS...and doesn't deserve discussion.

Elise

[Brightshores]

I agree with Garm. Though I can't speak as to the importance of having recent African ancestry to the African paths... I would certainly question the validity of any source where the author actually used the word "crakkka" to bolster his argument.

[Teresa]

It is bull crap and does not deserve to be discussed. I am sorry that you stumbled upon one of the Supremest person! My friend from Nigeria who is teaching me says it is untrue too. He states that many Americans come there to be initiated every year and they are all different colors and backgrounds. The spirits call whom they wish regardless of skin color.


That is most likely written by someone who lives here in America. I went and checked that thread and it is just like Olashile and I thought. The person is from Atlanta Georgia. I would not call that person an expert at all.

[LithiumViolets]

lol yes, that's what I thought. I knew that person wasn't right but I wanted to share that ignorance with you all, interesting because it's coming from the "other side" so to speak-- sometimes we forget Black people with enough anger that's vented in ignorance and not used (as in "righteous anger") to bring about good change can sound just as hateful and exclude others as white Supremacists

[David19]

Uh "crakkka?"

This is not the name of some obscure deity

Like seriously why even give politically driven UPG this much regard?

You don't have to be white to think like a Nazi


I agree with Garm. Though I can't speak as to the importance of having recent African ancestry to the African paths... I would certainly question the validity of any source where the author actually used the word "crakkka" to bolster his argument.

QFT, I'd say anyone who uses made-up words, 'cause of their bigotry doesn't deserve attention, like Garm said, you don't have to be white to be a Nazi.

[MoonBreath]

hmm, i definitely do not agree with him, considering how i had a significant experience with Oya a few years back.

I agree with aranarose's response in regards to the evolutionary view of life/all having african connections.

[banondraig]

Uh "crakkka?"

This is not the name of some obscure deity

Like seriously why even give politically driven UPG this much regard?

You don't have to be white to think like a Nazi

Seconded. This is the exact same kind of crap that some people think Heathen paths are all about.

[Saggitario]

I pretty much agree with everything that's been said here.

My take on it is two-fold.

1.) If you have wisdom or a way of acquiring it, It is (in my opinion) wrong to disallow someone else who genuinely seeks said wisdom for their own personal development, from acquiring it.

2.) Olodumare and Orisha created the entire world, not just Africa. While we should never forget where and how the traditions originated, to say that only people from a certain geographical area are able to practice a religious tradition, is kind of silly. A candle in my room burns the same as a candle in Ile Ife. The river in a neighboring town flows the same as the Osun river. The wind blows across this country the same as it does in Nigeria or Benin. I guess my point is that the forces at work in the world are the same no matter where you are.

Using that same logic, only people of Middle Eastern descent should be allowed to practice Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

Unfortunately, I have seen white Orisha devotees get so caught up in things like what the person on that forum said, that they start to believe that they are somehow less-than-whole. I even saw one person who decided not to have children because she viewed her race as a disease, and did not want it to continue. Personally, I find that kind of brainwashing very dangerous.


And when was the last time you saw a White Supremacist become interested in African Traditional Religion? Doesn't make sense to me...

[LithiumViolets]

And when was the last time you saw a White Supremacist become interested in African Traditional Religion? Doesn't make sense to me...


so true :) though, since I am Black, I do know what they were trying to say about white supremacist society's oppression (moreso than one particular white person, in general, that may have wanted to discover the Religion) though their whole statement and warped viewpoint was wrong...

While it is good and true that Oya's strength and that of the other orishas and the continuation of the traditions across the waters (through strictly memory and oral perpetuation) HAS allowed us to endure the white supremacist oppression and hold on to a PIECE of our culture when we have been given a new country, new names, new tongues--- THAT part was true but to succumb to ignorance in the form of reverse racism (and thus becoming no better than the Klansman or politician who you oppose) and to try to justify exclusion of other colors/races from the African traditions is in NO WAY correct or even inspired or commanded by Oya or any other orishas/gods.

[Ruben]

yes I believe that in Santeria you should be able to practice the path if you have a calling to it and the Orishas want to claim you - there are plenty of different backgrounds practicing this tradition so not sure why anyone would say that - I do know that there are plenty of folks who believe what they want to believe but to each their own....

There are traditions of a vodou where things are a bit different in those tradition you have to be born with the blood of your descendants to serve specific lwas of that tradition....but Haitian Vodou I believe is open to folks who want to service and practice as long as the lwas grant permission...

[Gypsywytch]

its all about whats in your heart and soul not what your DNA is made up of and if you are white/latino/middle eastern/asian/native american and you feel connected with the orishas then by all means follow that path the orishas will not look down on you because of race.

[KenazFilan]

In my experience with Haitian Vodou, the question is not "are you Black/African" but "are you Haitian?" I have encountered houses and priests who will only initiate native-born Haitians: they feel Vodou is an intrinsic part of Haitian culture and one must be Haitian born and raised to understand and practice it. I have encountered other houses which will initiate non-Haitians. But I've never encountered a Haitian Vodou house that will initiate black non-Haitians but not white non-Haitians.

I've gathered there are many Cubans who feel the same way about las Reglas de Ocha and las Reglas de Congo. Either they will initiate Cubans only or they will initiate anyone of any color. (Although I have heard of Cuban houses which will not initiate Cubans who are too dark-skinned... apparently they don't want overly African folks practicing their African-derived religion ;) ).

The American "black/white" model of race and culture is not the only one and doesn't hold a lot of weight outside American society. In the Caribbean it's more about ancestry, which is a very different question. If your mother was a priestess, you may be called to be a priestess: if not, the spirits may or may not be interested in working with you. And there are certain spirits which will only work with people of a certain ancestry. But there's no idea that being black gives you special claim to working with certain deities, or that being white shuts you out.

[LithiumViolets]

In my experience with Haitian Vodou, the question is not "are you Black/African" but "are you Haitian?" I have encountered houses and priests who will only initiate native-born Haitians: they feel Vodou is an intrinsic part of Haitian culture and one must be Haitian born and raised to understand and practice it. I have encountered other houses which will initiate non-Haitians. But I've never encountered a Haitian Vodou house that will initiate black non-Haitians but not white non-Haitians.

I've gathered there are many Cubans who feel the same way about las Reglas de Ocha and las Reglas de Congo. Either they will initiate Cubans only or they will initiate anyone of any color. (Although I have heard of Cuban houses which will not initiate Cubans who are too dark-skinned... apparently they don't want overly African folks practicing their African-derived religion ;) ).

The American "black/white" model of race and culture is not the only one and doesn't hold a lot of weight outside American society. In the Caribbean it's more about ancestry, which is a very different question. If your mother was a priestess, you may be called to be a priestess: if not, the spirits may or may not be interested in working with you. And there are certain spirits which will only work with people of a certain ancestry. But there's no idea that being black gives you special claim to working with certain deities, or that being white shuts you out.

Very well said. And, yes, I've recently spoken with a few vodoun priests who confirmed many non-Haitians are denied initiation or even given half-initiations or flat out deceived and given misinformation about practices to keep the secrets between pure-bred Haitians. In some ways, I can understand wanting to keep something for yourself when everything has been taken away so violently and what was stolen then made to look as if the thief (whites) invented it...

[Shanti]

For me blood lines do not matter as spirit has no blood and no blood lines!
I follow my spirit's paths not my bloods.

Blood is just biological temporary nothing. Thats not what we are!
We are our spirit and its not a human species, its just spirit.
:smile:

[KenazFilan]

For me blood lines do not matter as spirit has no blood and no blood lines!
I follow my spirit's paths not my bloods.

Blood is just biological temporary nothing. Thats not what we are!
We are our spirit and its not a human species, its just spirit.
:smile:

That is not always the case: there are certain spirits who will only work with people of a certain lineage. The God of the Jews, for instance, would only accept people who could claim direct patrilinear descent from Aaron, the brother of Moses. (They were called the "Kohanim," or in English the "Cohens"). In Africa there were many spirits who were served by ancestral priesthoods: in India we have the Brahmanic caste. In fact, I'd say that ancestral priesthoods, much like the idea of "royal blood," was the norm rather than the exception throughout most of history.

The problem is that "ancestry" and "race" are two different concepts which are often conflated. YHVH doesn't care whether or not you are black or white: there are black Kohanim in Ethiopia, for example, and the Eurasian son of Gertrude Cohen is still a Cohen despite his Chinese heritage. It's not about your skin color or your visible physical features but about your bloodlines. If you don't have the right ancestors, you may not be able to work with some spirits. (That being said, there are many others who don't seem to care about this).

This idea really irks many in our egalitarian culture, since our myths and morals place a premium on equal opportunity and freedom from discrimination. It also gets badly misinterpreted by people who want to use it to justify their political nationalist/racist goals. But it is one of those inconvenient historical facts we have to address for better or worse.

[Torey]

That is not always the case: there are certain spirits who will only work with people of a certain lineage. The God of the Jews, for instance, would only accept people who could claim direct patrilinear descent from Aaron, the brother of Moses. (They were called the "Kohanim," or in English the "Cohens"). In Africa there were many spirits who were served by ancestral priesthoods: in India we have the Brahmanic caste. In fact, I'd say that ancestral priesthoods, much like the idea of "royal blood," was the norm rather than the exception throughout most of history.

The problem is that "ancestry" and "race" are two different concepts which are often conflated. YHVH doesn't care whether or not you are black or white: there are black Kohanim in Ethiopia, for example, and the Eurasian son of Gertrude Cohen is still a Cohen despite his Chinese heritage. It's not about your skin color or your visible physical features but about your bloodlines. If you don't have the right ancestors, you may not be able to work with some spirits. (That being said, there are many others who don't seem to care about this).

This idea really irks many in our egalitarian culture, since our myths and morals place a premium on equal opportunity and freedom from discrimination. It also gets badly misinterpreted by people who want to use it to justify their political nationalist/racist goals. But it is one of those inconvenient historical facts we have to address for better or worse.

I agree. I also acknowledge the fact that particular deities and entities will not work with other particular deities and entities - it exists within recorded mythologies, as well as subjective experiences, that (like it or not) certain Otherworldly beings will only work with a particular race, culture, bloodline or set of other entities.