'The Odyssey' and 'The Iliad' are giving up new secrets about the ancient world

[Philosophia]

Hidden histories

NEARLY 3,000 YEARS after the death of the Greek poet Homer, his epic tales of the war for Troy and its aftermath remain deeply woven into the fabric of our culture. These stories of pride and rage, massacre and homecoming have been translated and republished over millennia. Even people who have never read a word of "The Iliad" or "The Odyssey" know the phrases they have bequeathed to us - the Trojan horse, the Achilles heel, the face that launched a thousand ships.

Today we still turn to Homer's epics not only as sources of ancient wisdom and wrenchingly powerful poetry, but also as genuinely popular entertainments. Recent translations of "The Iliad" and "Odyssey" have shared the best-seller lists with Grisham and King. "The Odyssey" has inspired works from James Joyce's "Ulysses" to a George Clooney movie, and an adaptation of "The Iliad" recently earned more than $100 million in the form of Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" - a summer blockbuster starring Brad Pitt as an improbable Achilles.

From here (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/09/28/hidden_histories/?page=full).

A good article that goes into detail about the background of 'The Odyssey' and 'The Iliad'.

[David19]

Very cool article, I guess there is more to the Epics than just fiction.

[TygerTyger]

I have never understood how people could believe that Homer's work was a literal description of a world that was ancient even to him! Applying the concerns of his time to a story that was probably an important or aspect of the culture of his day makes a lot of sense.

The only bit I did not understand was the reference to Brad Pitt as"an improbable Achilles"? I thought he made quite a good Achilles myself, he certainly looked the part and fought like a warrior. I wonder who the writer had in mind for a probable Achilles, Truman Capote?

:hehehehe:

[elessar]

I've laways knew that what Homer wasn't just fiction. But the story of the"kidnaping" of Helen still intrigues me. Was she kidnaped or left willingly with Paris ?

[Laisrean]

Very cool article, I guess there is more to the Epics than just fiction.

Who knows, maybe Plato's Atlantis was also more than just fiction. :uhhuhuh: Unfortunately, the Atlantis tale was incomplete and unverified. Many think it is just fiction, but I think it probably refers to somewhere in the New World. Did the ancient Greeks ever make it there? I'd like to think they did.

[David19]

Who knows, maybe Plato's Atlantis was also more than just fiction. :uhhuhuh: Unfortunately, the Atlantis tale was incomplete and unverified. Many think it is just fiction, but I think it probably refers to somewhere in the New World. Did the ancient Greeks ever make it there? I'd like to think they did.

Atlantis may have been in some way real, or maybe it was a real place, but became the stuff of legends even in Plato's day. That said, it also could be some kind of allegory, as Plato seemed to like using those.

Personally, I don't think the ancient Greeks made it to America, 'cause, if they did, there would be some kind of evidence, of settlements, skeletons, etc. The Vikings did make it to America, and, a few may have even made contact with the Incas, but, I don't think the ancient Greeks did.

[Laisrean]

Atlantis may have been in some way real, or maybe it was a real place, but became the stuff of legends even in Plato's day. That said, it also could be some kind of allegory, as Plato seemed to like using those.

Personally, I don't think the ancient Greeks made it to America, 'cause, if they did, there would be some kind of evidence, of settlements, skeletons, etc. The Vikings did make it to America, and, a few may have even made contact with the Incas, but, I don't think the ancient Greeks did.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind, the proof of the Viking settlements in the New World was only discovered in the 1960s. Before then, many people considered it just a legend. The proof that Greeks or other explorers arrived in the new world might actually already have been discovered. I remember they discovered some odd stone structures in New England that couldn't be explained, and it seems there was also some discovery of ancient phoencian or Roman coins...

And even if the evidence hasn't been discovered, that still doesn't mean it didn't happen. Some evidence like skeletons and wooden stuff rots away under most conditions, and leaves no trace behind. And for all we know, there could be some major discoveries yet to be found, but the problem is the Americas are vast and stuff from ancient times is going to be buried deep under ground. We don't know what we're looking for or where we might find it, so its no surprise that we haven't, or if we never do. But even if we never do, that doesn't mean the Greeks didn't visit the new world at one point or another.

BTW, are you familiar with the traces of Cocaine that were discovered in Egyptian mummies? Cocaine only existed in the New World in ancient times, so for it to be present in mummies that means the Egyptians must have sailed to the new world. There is also depictions of what appear to be Corn/Maize in Egyptian temples... so how could that be explained unless there was some contact? Plus, I think there's a lot of similarities between the Egyptians and the Incas and Mayans and so forth. Look at how the Mayans built pyramids similar to the Egyptians, and how the Incas and others liked to mummify their dead. I think there may have been some cultural exchange that took place in the distant past...

And did you know the meso-americans had some legend about bearded white men visiting them from the sea? Centuries later, when Cortez arrived they weren't surprised, because they thought it was their god Quetzalcoatl returning....

All of this on top of mountains of other things still isn't really enough to prove there was a connection, but to me it does seems likely.

[David19]

Not necessarily. Keep in mind, the proof of the Viking settlements in the New World was only discovered in the 1960s. Before then, many people considered it just a legend. The proof that Greeks or other explorers arrived in the new world might actually already have been discovered. I remember they discovered some odd stone structures in New England that couldn't be explained, and it seems there was also some discovery of ancient phoencian or Roman coins...

And even if the evidence hasn't been discovered, that still doesn't mean it didn't happen. Some evidence like skeletons and wooden stuff rots away under most conditions, and leaves no trace behind. And for all we know, there could be some major discoveries yet to be found, but the problem is the Americas are vast and stuff from ancient times is going to be buried deep under ground. We don't know what we're looking for or where we might find it, so its no surprise that we haven't, or if we never do. But even if we never do, that doesn't mean the Greeks didn't visit the new world at one point or another.

BTW, are you familiar with the traces of Cocaine that were discovered in Egyptian mummies? Cocaine only existed in the New World in ancient times, so for it to be present in mummies that means the Egyptians must have sailed to the new world. There is also depictions of what appear to be Corn/Maize in Egyptian temples... so how could that be explained unless there was some contact? Plus, I think there's a lot of similarities between the Egyptians and the Incas and Mayans and so forth. Look at how the Mayans built pyramids similar to the Egyptians, and how the Incas and others liked to mummify their dead. I think there may have been some cultural exchange that took place in the distant past...

And did you know the meso-americans had some legend about bearded white men visiting them from the sea? Centuries later, when Cortez arrived they weren't surprised, because they thought it was their god Quetzalcoatl returning....

All of this on top of mountains of other things still isn't really enough to prove there was a connection, but to me it does seems likely.

I didn't know that, I think I have heard of some amounts of Cocaine being found in ancient Egyptian mummies, it's interesting to think about. Although, personally, I think don't think the Mayans, Aztecs, or the ancient Egyptians copied each other, I think they created each of their monuments due to their own intelligence.

I didn't know about Roman, or Phonecian coins being found in America (do you know where abouts?), that's quite interesting, and I'd love to learn more. Who knows what's buried beneath the Americas, including the U.S..

[Valnorran]

The only bit I did not understand was the reference to Brad Pitt as"an improbable Achilles"? I thought he made quite a good Achilles myself, he certainly looked the part and fought like a warrior. I wonder who the writer had in mind for a probable Achilles, Truman Capote?

:hehehehe:
I always pictured Achilles as a sort of Mediterranean version of the Marlborough Man. Pitt was too much of a pretty boy.

Who knows, maybe Plato's Atlantis was also more than just fiction. Unfortunately, the Atlantis tale was incomplete and unverified. Many think it is just fiction, but I think it probably refers to somewhere in the New World.
Are you familiar with the island of Thera (AKA Santorini)? I think it's very probable it's the basis for the Atlantis story.

[LostSheep]

"At the very core of the tale," Latacz argues, "Homer's 'Iliad' has shed the mantle of fiction commonly attributed to it."

I'm not so sure I'd put it that way; I've always thought of it as historical fiction; the people and the specific events may not have been real, but the setting and the background most probably were. Just like, say 'Casablanca', or "Saving Private Ryan'.

I'm also not so sure I agree with the thrust of the argument;



Scholars agree that the relatively simple and poor culture Homer describes in his epics is quite sharply at odds with the complex and comparatively rich Greek kingdoms of the Late Bronze Age, when the war would have taken place.

Really? Most of the action, from the Greek side, was in the field, where you'd hardly expect luxury; and the scenes in Priam's palace seem quite plausibly what it would be like in a complex and comparatively rich kingdom under siege. So I'm not sure he was that far off the mark historeically, actually.

[*~Amora~*]

We do know the epics were important to the Hellenic people, afterall, the Catalogue of Ships near the beginning of the Iliad is so long because group after group wanted to have their ancestors referenced in the story.


But we can't know what the ancients were thinking or how literally they took the epics.



Oedipa located a full one and seated herself on the grass. "I would like to find out," she presently plunged, "something about the historical Wharfinger. Not so much the verbal one."

"The historical Shakespeare," growled one of the grad students through a full beard, uncapping another bottle. "The historical Marx. The historical Jesus."

"He's right," shrugged Bortz, "they're dead. What's left?" "Words."

"Pick some words," said Bortz. "Them, we can talk about."


- Thomas Pynchon, The Crying of Lot 49

[Laisrean]

I didn't know that, I think I have heard of some amounts of Cocaine being found in ancient Egyptian mummies, it's interesting to think about. Although, personally, I think don't think the Mayans, Aztecs, or the ancient Egyptians copied each other, I think they created each of their monuments due to their own intelligence.

I didn't know about Roman, or Phonecian coins being found in America (do you know where abouts?), that's quite interesting, and I'd love to learn more. Who knows what's buried beneath the Americas, including the U.S..

I can't remember where, but it might have been around Virginia or thereabouts. I'm also aware that off the coast of California, there were discovered some circular stones with holes in the middle. These stones were exactly the sort of thing the Chinese used as anchors for their Junks. And interestingly, there was the Chinese Eunuch adminal Zheng He who went on expeditions and was confirmed to have went as far as Africa. Some also believe he may have went to Australia, and possibly was even the first to circumnavigate the world... but there's not proof of it. But then, there's those weird stones which shouldn't have been there, and they are exactly like what his ships would have used...

BTW, are you familiar with the Norwegian explorer Thor Heyerdahl? He put the possibility of ancient Egyptians making it to the New World to the test. He constructed a raft made of reeds and managed to sail from Africa to South America with it. So that shows that it was certainly possible the ancient Egyptians could have made it to the New World. It doesn't prove that they did, of course, but it proves that its possible at least.

[Laisrean]

Are you familiar with the island of Thera (AKA Santorini)? I think it's very probable it's the basis for the Atlantis story.

Yes, but that couldn't have been what Plato had been referring to. The reason is because Plato very specifically states Atlantis lay beyond the pillars of Herakles (the strait of Gibraltor). Also, he refers to Atlantis as a continent, and he is somewhat detailed in the specifics of it. It seems to correlate pretty well with the area of Bolivia in South America, which actually did have a fairly advanced civilization back around the time of the ancient Greeks.

[David19]

Pitt was too much of a pretty boy.

And, there's nothing wrong with that ;)!.


Are you familiar with the island of Thera (AKA Santorini)? I think it's very probable it's the basis for the Atlantis story.

I'm not, but, I might do a bit of searching on it now.

[David19]

I can't remember where, but it might have been around Virginia or thereabouts. I'm also aware that off the coast of California, there were discovered some circular stones with holes in the middle. These stones were exactly the sort of thing the Chinese used as anchors for their Junks. And interestingly, there was the Chinese Eunuch adminal Zheng He who went on expeditions and was confirmed to have went as far as Africa. Some also believe he may have went to Australia, and possibly was even the first to circumnavigate the world... but there's not proof of it. But then, there's those weird stones which shouldn't have been there, and they are exactly like what his ships would have used...

Thanks or the ino, that's quite interesting, it does make you think what we don't know yet, so, it may have been possible.


BTW, are you familiar with the Norwegian explorer Thor Heyerdahl? He put the possibility of ancient Egyptians making it to the New World to the test. He constructed a raft made of reeds and managed to sail from Africa to South America with it. So that shows that it was certainly possible the ancient Egyptians could have made it to the New World. It doesn't prove that they did, of course, but it proves that its possible at least.

I didn't know that, when did it happen?, I'd love to know if any ancient Egyptians did make it to South America, although, I'm not sure of the possibility of them making it back.

Interestingly, just today, I've read 2 Roman ships were found off the coast of South America, it's likely they were sunk, probably, before they made it to land, but, it does seem to show the ships were capable of travelling that far (it's also likely, they were pushed off course, they weren't, deliberately trying to find it).

Here's where I read it (http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?start=15&t=1641):


In 1982 and then in 1987, the wrecks of two Roman ships (dated to the first century CE) were found off the coasts of Brazil and Venezuela, respectively. They probably reached the shores of South America by accident, but it's altogether possible that Roman ships made successful voyages to South America and back, following Atlantic currents.

I am by no means positing a theory that the Romans hauled back all kinds of tobacco and nose candy, but it proves that people from Europe made it to the Western Hemisphere long before even the Vikings did (in the tenth century CE, I believe). Who knows what may have ended up in their cargos?

Then later in the thread:


Yes, they're the real thing, no doubt about it. But it's neither evidence that the Roman Empire stretched to Mesoamerica nor that their trading routes extended that far. Most likely these ships were blown off course and ended up in the Western Hemisphere. Roman ships were certainly capable of making it that far.

I should add that although the wrecks were found off the coast of South America in the 1980s, there remains no evidence whatsoever of a Roman presence on that continent. It's just as possible that these ships made it that far and sank there, having never made land. But it does lend credibility to the argument that at least the occasional Roman vessel made it to South America.

So, it is quite interesting to think about, IMO.

[Laisrean]

For every ship that you find sunk, you have to wonder how many there were that DIDN'T get sunk. And new sunken ships are being found all the time, so there's probably a lot more out there waiting to be discovered.

[Valnorran]

Yes, but that couldn't have been what Plato had been referring to. The reason is because Plato very specifically states Atlantis lay beyond the pillars of Herakles (the strait of Gibraltor). Also, he refers to Atlantis as a continent, and he is somewhat detailed in the specifics of it. It seems to correlate pretty well with the area of Bolivia in South America, which actually did have a fairly advanced civilization back around the time of the ancient Greeks.
Yeah, but that's not to say Plato didn't get a few things wrong. My memory on this particular topic is hazy, but seems like I read Plato was working from an Egyptian account and, due to the two cultures using different calendars or a mistranslation, he got the date wrong.

And, there's nothing wrong with that !.
True, but I always pictured Achilles as more of a tough guy than a pretty boy, sort of an ancient Terminator. I wonder how the Greeks pictured him.

I'm not, but, I might do a bit of searching on it now.
The shorthand version: the present island of Santorini was once called Thera. It's volcanic and in ancient times it blew big enough to not only take out the Thera civilization but the Minoans, as well, via tsunami. IIRC, the Egyptians mounted relief efforts for the Minoans, but the Minoans were so far gone there really wasn't much to be done. I think the remnants of the Minoans were absorbed into neighboring cultures. At any rate, a cataclysmic geological event wipes out an advanced (compared to its contemporaries) civilization. I could see how over time the story of two island civilizations being wiped out by volcanic explosions and tsunamis could become a continent sinking.

[David19]

For every ship that you find sunk, you have to wonder how many there were that DIDN'T get sunk. And new sunken ships are being found all the time, so there's probably a lot more out there waiting to be discovered.

That may be true, although, if the Romans had made it to land on some occasions in South America, there would be evidence (like bases, military uniforms, tools, maybe inscriptions, etc).


Yeah, but that's not to say Plato didn't get a few things wrong. My memory on this particular topic is hazy, but seems like I read Plato was working from an Egyptian account and, due to the two cultures using different calendars or a mistranslation, he got the date wrong.

That's probably very true, also, wasn't Atlantis a legend even in Plato's time, so, it's unlikely he had all the facts, he may even just been saying what he heard from others.


True, but I always pictured Achilles as more of a tough guy than a pretty boy, sort of an ancient Terminator. I wonder how the Greeks pictured him.

I'm not sure, maybe they pictured him with dark hair (I'm not sure how many blonde's you got in ancient Greece), but, I do know, I love how the movie Troy depicted Achilles!.


The shorthand version: the present island of Santorini was once called Thera. It's volcanic and in ancient times it blew big enough to not only take out the Thera civilization but the Minoans, as well, via tsunami. IIRC, the Egyptians mounted relief efforts for the Minoans, but the Minoans were so far gone there really wasn't much to be done. I think the remnants of the Minoans were absorbed into neighboring cultures. At any rate, a cataclysmic geological event wipes out an advanced (compared to its contemporaries) civilization. I could see how over time the story of two island civilizations being wiped out by volcanic explosions and tsunamis could become a continent sinking.

Thanks for the info, and, it may be that, those events gave rise to the legend of Atlantis, over time anyway.

[elessar]

Yeah, but that's not to say Plato didn't get a few things wrong. My memory on this particular topic is hazy, but seems like I read Plato was working from an Egyptian account and, due to the two cultures using different calendars or a mistranslation, he got the date wrong.

True, but I always pictured Achilles as more of a tough guy than a pretty boy, sort of an ancient Terminator. I wonder how the Greeks pictured him.

The shorthand version: the present island of Santorini was once called Thera. It's volcanic and in ancient times it blew big enough to not only take out the Thera civilization but the Minoans, as well, via tsunami. IIRC, the Egyptians mounted relief efforts for the Minoans, but the Minoans were so far gone there really wasn't much to be done. I think the remnants of the Minoans were absorbed into neighboring cultures. At any rate, a cataclysmic geological event wipes out an advanced (compared to its contemporaries) civilization. I could see how over time the story of two island civilizations being wiped out by volcanic explosions and tsunamis could become a continent sinking.

That's why that region was considered to be one of the possible places where Atlantis used to be. Was actually funny is the Atlantis legend started in Egypt but was later continued by the Greeks.

[Laisrean]

That may be true, although, if the Romans had made it to land on some occasions in South America, there would be evidence (like bases, military uniforms, tools, maybe inscriptions, etc).

That assumes they had a permanent presence in the New World. They probably didn't build military bases and things like that. If they did come, they may have just traded with the natives and left. Or maybe they arrived on accident, because they were blown off course. Maybe some stayed and intermarried with the natives or died out or whatever.

[David19]

That assumes they had a permanent presence in the New World. They probably didn't build military bases and things like that. If they did come, they may have just traded with the natives and left. Or maybe they arrived on accident, because they were blown off course. Maybe some stayed and intermarried with the natives or died out or whatever.

True, but, even then, they'd find artifacts, such as pottery, uniforms, tools, etc. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the Romans didn't land in South America, just that there would probably be more evidence.

[Laisrean]

True, but, even then, they'd find artifacts, such as pottery, uniforms, tools, etc. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the Romans didn't land in South America, just that there would probably be more evidence.

No, not necessarily. New things are being discovered all the time, and there's other things which rotted or rusted away and can't possibly be recovered. Also, the Americas is a vast area, spanning 2 continents. It's likely theres a lot of things deep in the ground that we haven't discovered yet, and many more things we might never discover...

In fact, look at that hedgehog thing just recently dug up near stonehenge. Britain is a small area (compared to all of the Americas, anyway) and yet that remained in the soil undisturbed and undiscovered for thousands of years, and was recently dug up. So don't you think an area covering 2 continents could hide lots of secrets?

I mean, we still haven't found Amelia Earhardt, or the Lindbergh baby, or Natalee Holloway... We may never find any of them, or any trace of them, but they did exist. So my point is, just because you never find proof of something doesn't mean it never happened.

[elessar]

True, but, even then, they'd find artifacts, such as pottery, uniforms, tools, etc. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the Romans didn't land in South America, just that there would probably be more evidence.

It wouldn't be impossible. Have you ever seen that documentary about a Egyptian ship that reached Australia ? There are so many secrets left to discover that anything is possible.

[David19]

No, not necessarily. New things are being discovered all the time, and there's other things which rotted or rusted away and can't possibly be recovered. Also, the Americas is a vast area, spanning 2 continents. It's likely theres a lot of things deep in the ground that we haven't discovered yet, and many more things we might never discover...

In fact, look at that hedgehog thing just recently dug up near stonehenge. Britain is a small area (compared to all of the Americas, anyway) and yet that remained in the soil undisturbed and undiscovered for thousands of years, and was recently dug up. So don't you think an area covering 2 continents could hide lots of secrets?

I mean, we still haven't found Amelia Earhardt, or the Lindbergh baby, or Natalee Holloway... We may never find any of them, or any trace of them, but they did exist. So my point is, just because you never find proof of something doesn't mean it never happened.

I guess those are some good points, it is interesting to think about, BTW, who's the Lindbergh baby?.

[David19]

It wouldn't be impossible. Have you ever seen that documentary about a Egyptian ship that reached Australia ? There are so many secrets left to discover that anything is possible.

I haven't heard of that, I might check that out with some Kemetic Recons I know (on the internet), not that I don't believe you, it's just with most things ancient Egyptian, they'll likely know it.

I agree that there many things we haven't uncovered yet, we probably won't ever uncover them all either.

[Laisrean]

I guess those are some good points, it is interesting to think about, BTW, who's the Lindbergh baby?.

He is/was the infant son of the famous Aviator, Charles Lindbergh. Back in the 30s, the baby disappeared and there was ransom note, and some immigrant was convicted and executed for it, but the baby was never found... even to this day. He probably never will be.

Oh, and another good example would be the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa back in the 1970s. There are all kinds of theories what might have happened to him, such as his body being underneath the foundation of a stadium and so forth, but the mystery remains unsolved to this day.

So considering modern people and things can disappear without a trace, don't you think evidence of ancient people and things also disappear, or at least be very difficult to find? Just keep in mind, not everything that can be discovered has been discovered yet. That stonehenge toy thing is the most recent example, but new stuff is dug up all the time. Who knows what discoveries tomorrow may hold?

Also, if the Romans had a presence in the rainforests, then it wouldn't be surprising that there wouldn't be any trace of that. As I understand it, even bones and clothing and stuff like that rots away very quickly there, because of all the rain and humidity and stuff. In fact, when Columbus arrived down there, he had problems with the wood of one of his ships rotting away and he had to stop for awhile to make repairs. So if we assume there was ever a roman fort or settlement down there, just about everything that wasn't stone would have quickly rotted or rusted away.

[Laisrean]

I haven't heard of that, I might check that out with some Kemetic Recons I know (on the internet), not that I don't believe you, it's just with most things ancient Egyptian, they'll likely know it.

I agree that there many things we haven't uncovered yet, we probably won't ever uncover them all either.

There are many people who believe there are secret rooms/tunnels beneath the paws of the Sphinx, or in and around the pyramids and so forth. Some of them think there's like a library of ancient documents explaining a lot of mysteries, like Atlantis and how the pyramids were built, and so on. I don't know if its true or not, or why they believe it is, but they could be right, and maybe some day these secret chambers will be opened up.

[David19]

He is/was the infant son of the famous Aviator, Charles Lindbergh. Back in the 30s, the baby disappeared and there was ransom note, and some immigrant was convicted and executed for it, but the baby was never found... even to this day. He probably never will be.

Oh, and another good example would be the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa back in the 1970s. There are all kinds of theories what might have happened to him, such as his body being underneath the foundation of a stadium and so forth, but the mystery remains unsolved to this day.

So considering modern people and things can disappear without a trace, don't you think evidence of ancient people and things also disappear, or at least be very difficult to find? Just keep in mind, not everything that can be discovered has been discovered yet. That stonehenge toy thing is the most recent example, but new stuff is dug up all the time. Who knows what discoveries tomorrow may hold?

Also, if the Romans had a presence in the rainforests, then it wouldn't be surprising that there wouldn't be any trace of that. As I understand it, even bones and clothing and stuff like that rots away very quickly there, because of all the rain and humidity and stuff. In fact, when Columbus arrived down there, he had problems with the wood of one of his ships rotting away and he had to stop for awhile to make repairs. So if we assume there was ever a roman fort or settlement down there, just about everything that wasn't stone would have quickly rotted or rusted away.

Thanks for the info, I guess, we might never know.

[David19]

There are many people who believe there are secret rooms/tunnels beneath the paws of the Sphinx, or in and around the pyramids and so forth. Some of them think there's like a library of ancient documents explaining a lot of mysteries, like Atlantis and how the pyramids were built, and so on. I don't know if its true or not, or why they believe it is, but they could be right, and maybe some day these secret chambers will be opened up.

That sounds interesting, and I do wonder what else lies waiting to be discovered (not just in Egypt, but in Iraq, that's what I'd love to learn about, especially since I'm a Sumerian Recon, and worship Ereshkigal).