The Sisterhood of Avalon

[Morr]

Is anyone part of The Sisterhood of Avalon? (http://www.sisterhoodofavalon.org/)

I have been interested in them for a long while, and it seems like this month I might possibly be able to spare some $ to join this organization as a member.

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this group. I've been feeling a calling for what they stand for a while now, I'm really interested in expanding my knolwdge in that direction. The annual dues aren't outragous, so I have no problem with that.

Anyone?

[staticonthewire]

All I've ever heard about the Sisters of Avalon prior to your weblink was the Cyndi Lauper single, back in the late 1990s...

Similar sort of theme, I think...

[Anubisa]

I never heard of it either. I might look at it. I favorited it so I could look at it later. Seems interesting.

[~Elise~]

I went and looked over the site...personally, I want to stress that this is MY opinion, I have a problem in not working with both sides of Divinty. Yes, there are Women's Mysteries and Men's Mysteries...but that shouldn't preclude work with Divinity as a whole.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[Phoenix Blue]

Does Marion Zimmer Bradley get royalties?

[Caelestis ♥ Raven]

I went and looked over the site...personally, I want to stress that this is MY opinion, I have a problem in not working with both sides of Divinty. Yes, there are Women's Mysteries and Men's Mysteries...but that shouldn't preclude work with Divinity as a whole.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

Why? Each woman needs to walk her own path to find the Divine. If that path means only honoring the Goddess why is that so wrong? Every path is unique to those that follow it.

I only work with the Goddess myself.

Anyways...

I have visited the site before and was even part of their mailing list forever ago lol. It is very interesting and I would have joined but I lean towards the Greek Pantheon myself. I have known a few women who were part of The Sisterhood of Avalon and loved it alot, spoke very highly of it. One of the women in an old group I was in was very involved in that path & with them and she was one of the smartest most inspiring women I ever knew! So that must say something about it lol

They seem very well organized and put together. I would surely check out their entire site and even contact them for more info if you are interested.



Does Marion Zimmer Bradley get royalties?

lol



Q: Is the Sisterhood of Avalon based upon the series of books by Marion Zimmer Bradley?

A: While The Mists of Avalon and its sister books have been a portal into the realms of the Goddess and Avalon for many women, the SOA does not draw any of its traditions from these books; we look to much older sources. Any similarities which may exist are reflections of having taken inspiration from common source materials. Marion Zimmer Bradley herself considered the Goddess religion presented in her books to have been "made up," and she draws heavily from Wiccan materials for the rituals depicted in her books.


http://www.sisterhoodofavalon.org/tradition/faq.html

[Phoenix Blue]

Yeah, that's what they say, but c'mon:


The mists are thinning, sisters. Who knows the way back home -- to Avalon?
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and leaves little land mines in the grass like a duck ...

[RainInanna]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with SoA. If I was going to head down the group feminine spirituality route I'd probably look for something by Z Budapest, or Starhawk. And if I was going down the Celtic myth and spirituality route I'd probably go with one of the major Druidry groups.

[Sage Rainsong]

Hmm, Well I'm all for female empowerment and I have heard of them before (I believe the founder interviewed in the Druidic issue of PanGaia) I do have a couple of bones to pick with them. It's all well and good to work with female energy but this statement bothered me a little. "we work only with female, passive energies, and work only with Goddess energy." I just don't know what they mean by that. They could be saying that goddess energy is passive and that certainly is not the case. I mean how many warrior goddesses are out there? If they mean that they only work with passive goddess type energies then I'm not sure that I can agree with that either. Two of the five goddess that they worship are Ceridwen and Rhiannon. I think that it is quite debatable as to whether or not those goddesses are passive, or any of the others for that matter. It just doesn't make sense to me but hey, to each their own.

[_Banbha_]

They say they honor the Welsh gods but they worship the goddess(es). And that they are separate but equal...opposites even; which sounds like polarity but not exclusion.

I don't share how they frame their beliefs but I've heard only good things about them as a group in the past. :) The annual membership fee sounds reasonable too, which speaks well for them.

[Caelestis ♥ Raven]

Yeah, that's what they say, but c'mon:


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and leaves little land mines in the grass like a duck ...

IDK but really I dont even think it is much of a bad thing if they were inspired by the books (modern myths? :))

They are wonderful books.

And from what they said, they acknowledge that the books are not the best source of information and that the author "herself considered the Goddess religion presented in her books to have been "made up," and she draws heavily from Wiccan materials for the rituals depicted in her books. "

Which is something that least lol.

Maybe they just use some of the beauty of the books as alittle flare. lol The imagery of avalon can be quite moving & inspiring.

[Morr]

I actually was just looking to hear about experiences with the group as an organization, not to debate their beliefs or approaches.

I don't work with the Welsh Gods/Goddesses, this is just something I am interested in on a Spiritual level, to expand my knowledge and experience. I feel it will add to my Spirituality.

I also think that they explore the legend of Avalon as an inner spiritual level one can reach through self and spiritual exploration. In this case, through the 5 Welsh Goddesses. I don't think they take Avalon in the literal sense, not to mention the Zimmer-Bradely sense.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks :)

[_Banbha_]

It seems any Goddess or woman centered system that comes up in discussion leads to a lot of hand-wringing for some reason.

I'm not sure why.

[Son of Goddess]

I attended a Pagan Pride in my area several years ago and a couple presented on the Avalonian Tradition. I don't remember too much about what they spoke about, but I know it was heavily based on history and mythology. They briefly talked about the deities they worshipped. The class/seminar ended in a meditation/journey to Avalon.

From what I got out of it was that Avalon is a spiritual place that one journeys to in meditation to do inner spiritual work, rather than a physical location that one can get to.

I had checked out their website long ago, seems like a very interesting and promising organization. If I was interested in Celtic things, I might have looked into it more, but I'm a Roman at heart. :thumbsup:

[Fiamma]

It seems any Goddess or woman centered system that comes up in discussion leads to a lot of hand-wringing for some reason.

I'm not sure why.

I can only speak of my own experience with a few women-centered groups who only seemed to be concerned with the maiden/mother/crone archetypes and how eeeeeeeverything related to that, and how we're all mothers, we all give birth, even if we don't have children, we birth and nurture and care for ideas and creativity and blah blah blah and men just don't get it and "we all come from the goddess" moon, menstruation, there's no such thing as separate individual deities, they're all aspects of the goddess, even gods are aspects of the goddess...

It all got very tedious. if I said that I'd rather my artistic pursuits not be associated with my uterus, I just wasn't enough in touch with my mother aspect. If I had no interest in discussing the Grande Mystickale Connexion with menstrual cycles and the moon and the goddess, then I just didn't understand and needed to get in touch with the moon and its magyckkal cycles.

It was just another take on "This is the one way for things to be and we're right and you're wrong", with some girly trim and moonlight. Everything I didn't agree with was because I just wasn't in touch with some or other side of me or Teh Goddess or whatever. And at one point the world nearly ended when I told one group that I don't self-identify as a feminist or believe in the idea of ancient monolithic goddess matriarchy. Some, though not all of the folks in these groups, have gotten downright hostile at the idea of a woman who has no interest in having kids. (Why would you not want to experience such a beautiful blessing of the goddess??????? You're a woman!!! *arms flail, heads go 'splodey*)

Sooo....basically, the groups that I've run into all seem to be very obsessed with uteri, and boggled at the idea of a woman who might not be. Rather ironic considering they all would go on and on about how they didn't think that anyone should be able to define their spirituality for them and it's such a personal thing and we should all be free to honor (not worship, never worship, WE DON'T WORSHIP! EVER!) the divine as we see fit. I've run into less of this "We'll define what's correct spirituality for you" business in a conservative Mennonite church.

So...that would be where my personal "hand-wringing" stems from. I've run into others who have experienced the same. I'll take my patriarchal Greek gods, thanks.

[_Banbha_]

I can only speak of my own experience with a few women-centered groups who only seemed to be concerned with the maiden/mother/crone archetypes and how eeeeeeeverything related to that, and how we're all mothers, we all give birth, even if we don't have children, we birth and nurture and care for ideas and creativity and blah blah blah and men just don't get it and "we all come from the goddess" moon, menstruation, there's no such thing as separate individual deities, they're all aspects of the goddess, even gods are aspects of the goddess...

It all got very tedious. if I said that I'd rather my artistic pursuits not be associated with my uterus, I just wasn't enough in touch with my mother aspect. If I had no interest in discussing the Grande Mystickale Connexion with menstrual cycles and the moon and the goddess, then I just didn't understand and needed to get in touch with the moon and its magyckkal cycles.

Does this mean all women's groups are alike though? I can't think that, even though I've never been to one.

It's not my thing either and I found the whole maiden, mother, crone limiting on a number of levels and add the uterus thing too. It is though, a belief system with it's own thealogy, as valid as any other to it's adherents. I respect that as much as other systems that aren't for me.

Now if someone wants to debate aspects of that thealogy on an historical basis, like say that of M-M-C, that's well and good; but not all theologies have or require a solid historical base. Some are quite made up and/or are unverifiable.

There just seems to be a reaction to Goddess religions on a visceral level at times. It makes people react simply on it's mentioning with jokes, anger, debunking, or distancing; and that makes me wonder why. I've had a bad experience or two with Catholicism that I think had a negative effect on my life at that time; but I'd not think what happened with me reflects on everything Catholic religiously or (especially) culturally where I still relate on any number of levels.

It sounds to me like the same thing as when certain Pagans flip at hearing the word Christianity. :weirdsmil

I don't think from what I'm seeing of the Sisterhood of Avalon that it's like you described above. But I'm sure someone else might know better than I on this. I don't think all "Goddess" religions or people involved are the same and surely there must be some growth, just like in the other neo-Pagan religions.


It was just another take on "This is the one way for things to be and we're right and you're wrong", with some girly trim and moonlight. Everything I didn't agree with was because I just wasn't in touch with some or other side of me or Teh Goddess or whatever. And at one point the world nearly ended when I told one group that I don't self-identify as a feminist or believe in the idea of ancient monolithic goddess matriarchy. Some, though not all of the folks in these groups, have gotten downright hostile at the idea of a woman who has no interest in having kids. (Why would you not want to experience such a beautiful blessing of the goddess??????? You're a woman!!! *arms flail, heads go 'splodey*)

Sooo....basically, the groups that I've run into all seem to be very obsessed with uteri, and boggled at the idea of a woman who might not be. Rather ironic considering they all would go on and on about how they didn't think that anyone should be able to define their spirituality for them and it's such a personal thing and we should all be free to honor (not worship, never worship, WE DON'T WORSHIP! EVER!) the divine as we see fit. I've run into less of this "We'll define what's correct spirituality for you" business in a conservative Mennonite church.

So...that would be where my personal "hand-wringing" stems from. I've run into others who have experienced the same. I'll take my patriarchal Greek gods, thanks.

:smile:

Thanks for replying. It's still a bit of a mystery to me why some seem to feel threatened by it.

[Phoenix Blue]

It might not be a matter of "feeling threatened." For me, it's a matter of balance, and the way to establish balance in one's personal belief is not to swing the pendulum all the way in the opposite direction. Far be it from me to dictate someone else's path, but that's how I feel about it.

[_Banbha_]

I did use the word "threatened" on purpose. :hehehehe:

Just considering many threads here where this has come up and continues to, there is usually some mocking or distancing volunteered that aren't part of the questions or discussion. I don't see other belief systems reacted to in quite the same way in sum total. And I'm not saying any faith is above criticism or close examination either; but I do wonder at times at the reactions to this one.

[Phoenix Blue]

Just considering many threads here where this has come up and continues to, there is usually some mocking or distancing volunteered that aren't part of the questions or discussion.
Touché. ;) But I'm prone to mocking anything that pings my BS-O-Meter™, as this did.

[Morr]

Really, honestly, I just wanted to know about anyones experience with this specific group.

And FYI, I am very into the Irish GODS as well as the Irish GODDESSES.

What The Sisterhood of Avalon offers, to me personally, is expanding my spiritual experience. My own PERSONAL spiritual experience. That is all.

It might sound crazy to some, but I think that coming into touch with different paths, or extentions of one own's path leads to understanding, growth, and enlightenment.

/sarcasm.

Oh well.

Again, anyone have any experience with this specific group (not super feminist female groups? I don't agree with those.. Nor do I follow the Maiden Mother Crone thing)?

Thanks!

[Phoenix Blue]

Really, honestly, I just wanted to know about anyones experience with this specific group.
Sorry it didn't go your way, but you don't get to dictate the direction of a conversation.

[Morr]

I thought that the great MW Admins do not like to steer topics of threads off topic.

But then again, the rules may have been changed, I don't really follow this stuff these days.

Anyways, should have known I'd get such a response. Thanks, PB, for never failing me.

[SwordsFlameSong]

If you feel that a post has violated the rules of this site report it. Discussions will naturally flow, and veer away from the initial topic only to meander back. That is the nature when a dynamic group of people take part in a thread.]

As for the "great MW Admins" portion of your post. Admins are members of this site, and are also protected by the Respect rule. If you wish to disagree with what an admin posts as a member you have every right to do so. Deliberately referencing their admin status, in what could well be taken as a denigrating tone is not disagreeing with a stance but targeting the person.

If you have any questions regarding this warning please feel free to contact any member of the admin staff for further discussion.



I thought that the great MW Admins do not like to steer topics of threads off topic.

But then again, the rules may have been changed, I don't really follow this stuff these days.

Anyways, should have known I'd get such a response. Thanks, PB, for never failing me.

[Morr]

It's sad it had to come down to this. But okay.

I'll shut my pretty little mouth. Apologies.

[Phoenix Blue]

It's sad it had to come down to this. But okay.

I'll shut my pretty little mouth.
Knock off the passive-aggressive sarcasm toward other members of this community. You know very well that public responses to admin modes are not allowed -- do not do so again.

[childofbast]

I'm sorry that I can't be more of a help with your question. I did look into the group a long time ago, but went to ADF.

Perhaps you would get a better response if the thread were moved to the Celtic forum? I know that I don't follow every forum on here, so there may be some people who frequent that board but not this one so much. I know that a lot of people have membership in multiple Druidic/ Celtic-inspired groups.

Best of luck,
Melanie

[Fiamma]

Does this mean all women's groups are alike though? I can't think that, even though I've never been to one.

No doubt there are, I do try to be specific that I'm speaking of my own personal experience. I've run into a number of individuals that say it's not like that, but all the groups I've run into have been like that. I gave up even giving it a shot a good while ago because my religion has gone in completely different directions. At best, the opinions, I seem to get are "well that's just not Women's Spirituality, but if it works for you, good luck." but I've gotten plenty of flack about Teh Eevul Patriarchal Gods.



Now if someone wants to debate aspects of that thealogy on an historical basis, like say that of M-M-C, that's well and good; but not all theologies have or require a solid historical base. Some are quite made up and/or are unverifiable.

I see a difference between having religious beliefs without historical basis (I myself hold a good bit of belief that so far as I know has no historical basis, if there is, I've found no record of it), and making claims of supposed historical fact.

So it's one thing to believe in an M-M-C goddess or group of goddesses...another thing to insist that the ancient folks worshipped The Goddess in MMC form, or that any particular group of goddesses was supposed to be representative of the MMC grouping.



There just seems to be a reaction to Goddess religions on a visceral level at times. It makes people react simply on it's mentioning with jokes, anger, debunking, or distancing; and that makes me wonder why. I've had a bad experience or two with Catholicism that I think had a negative effect on my life at that time; but I'd not think what happened with me reflects on everything Catholic religiously or (especially) culturally where I still relate on any number of levels.

It sounds to me like the same thing as when certain Pagans flip at hearing the word Christianity. :weirdsmil

I don't think from what I'm seeing of the Sisterhood of Avalon that it's like you described above. But I'm sure someone else might know better than I on this. I don't think all "Goddess" religions or people involved are the same and surely there must be some growth, just like in the other neo-Pagan religions.



:smile:

[quote=_Banbha_;3717293]
Thanks for replying. It's still a bit of a mystery to me why some seem to feel threatened by it.

Well, for me, it's not being threatened at all. There is a rather high level of frustration with my past experiences of being told "oh, we're so open and welcoming and safe and believe that everyone should be free to honor the divine as it suits them" and on the first surface scratching, suddenly it's "We're open and welcoming and safe and believe that everyone should be free to honor the divine as it suits them as long as we're okay with their view of the divine"...my experiences haven't even been a matter of "Well we think differently so we should just agree to disagree and go our own ways", they've been "OMGoddess! You're brainwashed by the patriarchy! Honor the divine feminine and get in touch with your uterus!" Not in those exact words, but that's what it boils down to.

Seriously, I wish I were joking. Like I said before, the extremely conservative Christian churches I've attended in the past were more open than that. I used to hang out at a fundamentalist Christian Bible college and found the people far more open to discussion than that.

Like I said, I tried it several times and have given up trying because it's completely and utterly irrelevant to me. I do still run into people on occasion who try to tell me that as a woman, I need to go that way though. It might be cool sometimes to just hang out and talk to people of different beliefs, exchange ideas and all that other fun stuff that people do, the women's goddess groups have been the one category that I've consistently been put off by for all the reasons I listed above.

[_Banbha_]

No doubt there are, I do try to be specific that I'm speaking of my own personal experience. I've run into a number of individuals that say it's not like that, but all the groups I've run into have been like that. I gave up even giving it a shot a good while ago because my religion has gone in completely different directions. At best, the opinions, I seem to get are "well that's just not Women's Spirituality, but if it works for you, good luck." but I've gotten plenty of flack about Teh Eevul Patriarchal Gods.

Well, people have different perspectives, this is nothing new. You have comments about their beliefs as well, as do I too, come to think of it.

I've actually never gotten any personal flack from that perspective that is worth mentioning. And while I've not been in a group per say, I've had lots of contacts with Goddess centered women (and men too) IRL mostly and for many years.

I've become annoyed at some of the presumption from one goddess centered group in Glastonbury who said something to the effect that "Britain is named for Bridgid and she was THE Goddess of the British Isles and Ireland needs to get over that political stuff and fall into line as one of the British Isles." [paraphrasing here but pretty godsdamn close. I can probably get the quote if anyone is interested...if I didn't toss the book out the window of a moving train that is]


I see a difference between having religious beliefs without historical basis (I myself hold a good bit of belief that so far as I know has no historical basis, if there is, I've found no record of it), and making claims of supposed historical fact.

Me too personally, it's my distinction that many religionists either don't care that their religion is not verifiable or they just believe their own versions/theories and not yours. Why bang your head against a wall over it? I gave up on teh neo-pagans ages ago. :bigblue:


So it's one thing to believe in an M-M-C goddess or group of goddesses...another thing to insist that the ancient folks worshipped The Goddess in MMC form, or that any particular group of goddesses was supposed to be representative of the MMC grouping.

Absolutely and that one happens to be an easy one to put down to a couple of points as modern creations.


Well, for me, it's not being threatened at all. There is a rather high level of frustration with my past experiences of being told "oh, we're so open and welcoming and safe and believe that everyone should be free to honor the divine as it suits them" and on the first surface scratching, suddenly it's "We're open and welcoming and safe and believe that everyone should be free to honor the divine as it suits them as long as we're okay with their view of the divine"...my experiences haven't even been a matter of "Well we think differently so we should just agree to disagree and go our own ways", they've been "OMGoddess! You're brainwashed by the patriarchy! Honor the divine feminine and get in touch with your uterus!" Not in those exact words, but that's what it boils down to.

You can move on from the experience too.


Seriously, I wish I were joking. Like I said before, the extremely conservative Christian churches I've attended in the past were more open than that. I used to hang out at a fundamentalist Christian Bible college and found the people far more open to discussion than that.

Like I said, I tried it several times and have given up trying because it's completely and utterly irrelevant to me. I do still run into people on occasion who try to tell me that as a woman, I need to go that way though. It might be cool sometimes to just hang out and talk to people of different beliefs, exchange ideas and all that other fun stuff that people do, the women's goddess groups have been the one category that I've consistently been put off by for all the reasons I listed above.

I've never met fundamentalists from any faith who were so open to discussion, at least not without the thought of conversion and I don't consider that a truly open discussion. I've met many Evangelicals who were open and interesting people; but then you don't have to be fundamentalist to be evangelical.

I wouldn't last five minutes in Saudi Arabia without being arrested and Fundamentalist Christians would find me really annoying over time just for expressing myself. I could be arrested in one country where I've helped women leave to get abortions because they are so taboo there. I don't go out of my way to bug Fundi Patriarch types, I'm just not going to sublimate myself to suit them. It's one thing to be a good guest, but there are limits when hospitality has an extreme price.

If some goddess group said I wasn't recognizing my uterus, it would be more high comedy than anything, but that's just me. Try to mess with Ériu and it's another story... but still kind of a funny one all things considered. :smile:

[_Banbha_]

It might sound crazy to some, but I think that coming into touch with different paths, or extentions of one own's path leads to understanding, growth, and enlightenment.

/sarcasm.



I'm not sure why that was part of the sarcasm. I agree with your comment.

I think this group doesn't sound M-M-C or exclusionary in the spiritual sense, just focused in it's own perspective. I think when one is up on the lore and history, branching out for experiences can be wonderful thing... but maybe I'm just spitting in the wind because this is not __exactly__ what you want or need to hear. _tomatoe_

[Darth Brooks]

I've never met fundamentalists from any faith who were so open to discussion, at least not without the thought of conversion and I don't consider that a truly open discussion. I've met many Evangelicals who were open and interesting people; but then you don't have to be fundamentalist to be evangelical.

That's true, though some would say you have to be evangelical to be fundamentalist, at least in the Christian sense. I had the pleasure of meeting a few fundamentalist Christians who weren't so bad, and with whom I eventually became friends.


There just seems to be a reaction to Goddess religions on a visceral level at times. It makes people react simply on it's mentioning with jokes, anger, debunking, or distancing; and that makes me wonder why. I've had a bad experience or two with Catholicism that I think had a negative effect on my life at that time; but I'd not think what happened with me reflects on everything Catholic religiously or (especially) culturally where I still relate on any number of levels. That just shows how remarkable you are. :) Unfortunately, however, there do appear to be a lot of people who have a lot of baggage concerning patriarchy, and embracing a more matriarchal form of spirituality has proven to be quite therapeutic for them, not to mention deeply meaningful. But many of them - like Margot Adler and almost all the people she interviews in Drawing Down The Moon - have really negative things to say about patriarchy. And because Goddess worshipers of this variety seem to have gained quite a bit of influence, to the point of leading some people to assume that one must be a Goddess worshiper if one is a pagan, it is only understandable that the opposite effect has come into play. More pagans who follow either a more balanced view or who just follow a male concept of deity are speaking up and for some of them, saying nasty things about matriarchal spirituality is probably therapeutic for them in the same way that saying nasty things about patriarchal spirituality was therapeutic for the more Goddess-centered folks who came before. In other words it's like a great big pendulum that has swung in one direction, is now swinging in the other direction, and which will hopefully slow down and stop somewhere in the middle.

For my own part it gets old having people assume that when I say "pagan" I necessarily mean "Goddess worship." It's not that I have any real problem with the concept in and of itself (I don't worship any Goddesses myself but I do respect them), it's just that the term has always been much broader than that, and it should be understood as such.


It sounds to me like the same thing as when certain Pagans flip at hearing the word Christianity. :weirdsmil To some extent it is, indeed. I believe it will not be so bad in future years, though. I think it's just the global pagan community's way of balancing itself out, if you will.


Thanks for replying. It's still a bit of a mystery to me why some seem to feel threatened by it.Again I think it is the same thing as when things like Dianic Wicca were brand spankin' new and many pagans felt a need to distance themselves from too much patriarchy. Now many other pagans feel a need to distance themselves from what might be perceived as too much matriarchy within paganism. But, just because they want to distance themselves from it does not necessarily mean they find it threatening. Surely this might be the case with some, but I think most of us who grumble about it are just tired of how the more masculine stuff seemed to be getting the short end of the stick for a while there. And considering that patriarchy originated among the pagan civilizations anyway, it only makes sense that some would want to reclaim it for contemporary paganism as well.


Sooo....basically, the groups that I've run into all seem to be very obsessed with uteri, and boggled at the idea of a woman who might not be. Rather ironic considering they all would go on and on about how they didn't think that anyone should be able to define their spirituality for them and it's such a personal thing and we should all be free to honor (not worship, never worship, WE DON'T WORSHIP! EVER!) the divine as we see fit. I've run into less of this "We'll define what's correct spirituality for you" business in a conservative Mennonite church.

I'm going off on a tangent but I can identify with what you're saying here to a certain extent in my own field. There is, or rather was, a prevalent opinion among the majority of Setians that one is not supposed to worship Set, but to emulate Him - even though khepher (or "Xeper") is supposed to be unique to each individual, and nobody else is really supposed to define it for you. Paradoxically, the idea of a Setian who worships Set was practically anathema. In more recent years this issue seems to have subsided as the number of Setian groups has (only slightly) increased, and the different groups have pretty much lost any interest or concern for what the others are doing. Most still seem to favor the idea of the left hand path being a path of "self-worship," but since more information about the original Eastern implications of the term is generally accessible to us today, the idea of Setians being Kemetic pagans who worship Set has gained much more currency than it did when, say, the Temple of Set folks were the only ones out there calling themselves Setians.

I have not participated in any groups like the Sisterhood of Avalon but I am guessing that more or less the same thing is happening in other areas of paganism pertaining to different dogmas that were once unquestioned (even when mentioned alongside the "No one has a right to define your spirituality for you" mantra in the same breath). It is conceivable to me, for instance, that more groups that are specifically devoted to Goddess worship are perhaps warming up a little to the more patriarchal forms of paganism, if only to tolerate them. Being that this is not my field, however, I cannot say how much or how quickly such change may be occurring.


Does Marion Zimmer Bradley get royalties?

If she does, I hope the Heinlein estate gets royalties from the Church of All Worlds. ;)


All I've ever heard about the Sisters of Avalon prior to your weblink was the Cyndi Lauper single, back in the late 1990s...

I love Cyndi Lauper. What I wouldn't give for that girl to be single and living in Texas. :D

[_Banbha_]

That's true, though some would say you have to be evangelical to be fundamentalist, at least in the Christian sense. I had the pleasure of meeting a few fundamentalist Christians who weren't so bad, and with whom I eventually became friends.

You do have to proselytize to be a fundamentalist but there are many evangelicals who are not fundamentalist...sadly only the Fundies seem to get the press; at least as far as Christian ones in the US go.


That just shows how remarkable you are. :)

Why, thank you Mr. Brooks. :toofless:

(I wrote Mr. Vader first without thinking, lol)


Unfortunately, however, there do appear to be a lot of people who have a lot of baggage concerning patriarchy, and embracing a more matriarchal form of spirituality has proven to be quite therapeutic for them, not to mention deeply meaningful. But many of them - like Margot Adler and almost all the people she interviews in Drawing Down The Moon - have really negative things to say about patriarchy. And because Goddess worshipers of this variety seem to have gained quite a bit of influence, to the point of leading some people to assume that one must be a Goddess worshiper if one is a pagan, it is only understandable that the opposite effect has come into play. More pagans who follow either a more balanced view or who just follow a male concept of deity are speaking up and for some of them, saying nasty things about matriarchal spirituality is probably therapeutic for them in the same way that saying nasty things about patriarchal spirituality was therapeutic for the more Goddess-centered folks who came before. In other words it's like a great big pendulum that has swung in one direction, is now swinging in the other direction, and which will hopefully slow down and stop somewhere in the middle.

Sure anyone can get caught up in the emotion of the issues from both sides but it's a choice at some point if you want to continue riding that pendulum.




For my own part it gets old having people assume that when I say "pagan" I [I]necessarily mean "Goddess worship." It's not that I have any real problem with the concept in and of itself (I don't worship any Goddesses myself but I do respect them), it's just that the term has always been much broader than that, and it should be understood as such

It's the Wiccan confusion that gets to me when people assume, given my particular Recon mindset; so I hear you. And I guess many think all Wicca is Goddess worship too. I don't see how my issue on labels and with the confusion and frustration they bring me, as a license or excuse to go insult some Wiccans who are doing their own thing.


To some extent it is, indeed. I believe it will not be so bad in future years, though. I think it's just the global pagan community's way of balancing itself out, if you will.

I agree about the future but I'm not so sure about the balance part. Some don't want balance and will always seem extreme or wrong-headed to the status quo. :)


Again I think it is the same thing as when things like Dianic Wicca were brand spankin' new and many pagans felt a need to distance themselves from too much patriarchy. Now many other pagans feel a need to distance themselves from what might be perceived as too much matriarchy within paganism. But, just because they want to distance themselves from it does not necessarily mean they find it threatening. Surely this might be the case with some, but I think most of us who grumble about it are just tired of how the more masculine stuff seemed to be getting the short end of the stick for a while there. And considering that patriarchy originated among the pagan civilizations anyway, it only makes sense that some would want to reclaim it for contemporary paganism as well.

I connected distancing, insults, jokes with feeling threatened because that's what some of people do when they are threatened by an idea, not threatened in the immediate sense.

I'm all for wide diversity being recognized within Paganism and that increasing numbers seem more discerning than they did, say 10 years ago. I think established paths are evolving and becoming more nuanced as we speak. :)

[RainInanna]

Sorry Morr, I was hoping to see someone was familiar with that particular group myself since I'm wondering what they're like too. I've thought about joining them too but it's so hard to tell with online groups if it's worthwhile. Maybe if you Google their name you'll find people on another forum who've worked with them.

Although there seems to see a lot of Druidic material available it'd be interesting to see how Goddess spirituality and Welsh/Irish myth can be combined. I find Emma Restall Orr's writing leans more towards how I envision Goddess spirituality in a Druidic context, but YMMV, and really, she doesn't focus on myth very much although she does call herself Druidic. Often I find Celtic myth is balanced or doesn't feel Goddess centered, at least to me. It's so hard to find something that speaks to you just the right way sometimes.

[Fiamma]

You can move on from the experience too.

Sure can, but the annoyance does tend to get renewed each time I run into it.

[Fiamma]

Again I think it is the same thing as when things like Dianic Wicca were brand spankin' new and many pagans felt a need to distance themselves from too much patriarchy. Now many other pagans feel a need to distance themselves from what might be perceived as too much matriarchy within paganism. But, just because they want to distance themselves from it does not necessarily mean they find it threatening. Surely this might be the case with some, but I think most of us who grumble about it are just tired of how the more masculine stuff seemed to be getting the short end of the stick for a while there. And considering that patriarchy originated among the pagan civilizations anyway, it only makes sense that some would want to reclaim it for contemporary paganism as well.


There are also many folks, such as myself for whom gender just doesn't really have a role in our religion. The deities to whom I am closest happen to be gods, but it's not because they are gods instead of goddesses, it's about who they are, what they are, and what influence they have on me. I am about ascertain as I can be that if Apollo were a goddess and all other factors the same, it wouldn't make any difference in my religion at all. My religion isn't about gender, never has been, nor do I ever want it to be. It has nothing to do with patriarchy versus matriarchy and I'd really prefer that society, religion, humanity, whatever be neither patriarchal nor matriarchal and I'd like to keep the gender politics as far from my religion as possible. Thankfully, I've found religious community where that rarely comes in.



It is conceivable to me, for instance, that more groups that are specifically devoted to Goddess worship are perhaps warming up a little to the more patriarchal forms of paganism, if only to tolerate them. Being that this is not my field, however, I cannot say how much or how quickly such change may be occurring.

I'm not even talking about anything even remotely patriarchal. Heck, when I was in the situation where women's groups were about all that was available to me, I was just a general, aimless generic pagan who didn't know a whole heckuvalot who pretty much worshipped Artemis exclusively because she was the one who held influence at the time. Wouldn't imagine that being a big problem for a women's group, eh?

[HallsOfAvalon]

As a male this might come as a suprise... I am all for Goddess worship, and I understand the need for it. I am not for the "passive" part, as you should be able to celebrate every aspect of being a woman in ritual.

I didn't see how much it costs to join, and what that cost gets you.

[Lady Velvet]

Is it typical that these types of conversations steer off like this?

As a new person I am curious.

If you do join them, will you post your experiences here? Or is the taste now bitter?


Best of Luck!

[Anteros]

Does Marion Zimmer Bradley get royalties?

Hahaha! I was thinking something similar :P

It seems like a cash-grab run by some die-hard Mists of Avalon fans.

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings,

I should preface my comments by saying that I am a former SOA member (I was on their first Council of Nine, one of their first Seminary Mentors, and also on their first Bylaws Committee) and I am now the Founding Elder Dreamer of Avalon Druid Order. I've met Kathy Jones, who heads up the Priestess of Avalon School, and am acquainted with Avalonian Druid and author Nicholas Mann, who has written extensively on Avalon's sacred landscape. So I am not unbiased, but I offer my views on this nonetheless...

There is a difference between the Avalon Mystery Tradition, the groups that presently claim to be part of that Tradition, and the modern fiction that derives from Avalon's remaining literature and lore. That a tradition existed is attested in Celtic and Arthurian literature, in folklore, and in extensive place-name evidence, if nowhere else. This information describes a native mysticism andspiritual tradition that centres on the Wasteland story cycles and related material, much of which is pre-Celtic (i.e. preserved by the Celts) or Celtic.

The numerous sites claiming to be "Avalon" all share a sacred landscape characterized by similar features in roughly the same orientation on the landscape (though not always on the same scale). Certain archetypal characters are also common to all Avalonian literature, though their titles change with changing times. These facts are acknowledged by most academics; in fact, Avalonianism has even won adherents in some scholarly quarters (e.g. John and Caitlin Matthews have occasionally self-identified as "Avalonian" in their publications.)

Then there are the modern groups who self-identify as being "Avalonian"... Most of these groups claim that they are the only "real" Avalonians, just as most of the Avalon sites claim that they are the only (or the "real") Isle of Avalon. We can judge whether they are Avalonian by examining their teachings and methods for the academic identifiers listed above. It does not matter where they claim their information comes from, if their teachings and practices centre on Wasteland story cycles and the cultures that originated and/or perpetuated them, and are rooted in Avalon's characteristic sacred landscapes and archetypes, then they are Avalonian. If not, then their claims are suspect.

We may expect that since all of these groups are drawing from the same well, there will be some strong parallels in what they are doing -- and this is so... however, the feeling of what they do is quite different. Each group has its own signature energy, which seems to be tied to its chosen perspective on Avalon. So there's quite a lot of individuality within the same basic framework. None of these groups really resembles the Avalon fiction that has been published in modern times. The practices and feeling of their work is quite different, very real, and very effective.

(To those who complain of the cost)... I can understand people who look at the cost and think it's all a money game for Avalon role players, but then I can also attest that spending years overseas learning traditional healing and bard-craft, and intensively working with ancient sites is not free, even for the self-taught (which I am not). People expecting to reap the benefits of someone else's efforts should be willing to offer something of equal value in exchange. When weighing up a fair exchange, you might also consider the fact that before being allowed to tutor others, Avalonians follow a course of intensive study for between seven and twenty years (depending upon the group); studies which require them to travel extensively at their own expense, even if they are not paying a mentor. Even if you feel it's unfair to pay someone to mentor you locally, you won't become competent by sitting in an armchair "channelling". There are no short cuts; the only way to learn an ancestral way is by adopting an ancestral worldview, and the only way to learn how to work with sacred sites is to spend long periods of time exploring them. You won't be doing it for free no matter who you are or where you live...

As with anything else, there are good deals and bad deals. To me a good deal is being able to learn from people whose knowledge and experience I trust, in an environment where I have access to the resources I need and where I feel safe and comfortable. Everything else is a bad deal -- no matter what the price.

(To those who complain that Avalonian Tradition is not based on "real" history)... Neither is any other native tradition. Indigenous traditions don't have "official histories", they have Dream-time* stories.


We cannot claim to revere ancestral traditions while holding their ways in contempt.


If we believe in the power of ancestral ways, then we must believe that the same possibilities exist for us, today. That means allowing for the possibility that others may have parts of the truth that we do not. Sometimes it means allowing others to tell the truth in whatever way is meaningful for them, even if that is not the way that would be meaningful for us. Those who believe that all the "secrets" are lost beyond recall are merely role-playing, and those who insist that truth can be known only through science must discard the ancestral way as the way of superstition -- for that is how science sees it. Since we are all here, I will assume that this is not what most of us choose to believe...

Before you judge another's belief, consider how much of what you are saying is assumption and how much is based on first-hand knowledge. If your argument is founded on assumptions or here-say, then you really have no knowledge of the subject; you are merely parroting what other people say is true.

We are all products of our society, and modern society loves the "one right answer", the unchanging "fact". We tend to forget that we don't actually have any answers; we've only ever had theories, and theories are just educated guesses. "Facts" change as new information surfaces; even "evidence" is subject to interpretation. There is no fixed, immutable answer to anything. So it's best to remain humble and allow for the possibility that a different view than our own might also be proved true. The ancestors knew this; it's partly why they revered memory over "history". Their memories are recorded in their songs, their dances, their art, and their lore -- which is not gone, but survives all around us in folklore.

Thank you for listening.

Bendithion Afallon
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
[END NOTE: For those who have placed their faith in the "right answers" provided by academia, I suggest you search "pre-Clovis" and "prehistoric Britain" science articles on the "new" prehistory that is emerging. Nearly everything we learned in school has been proved wrong; you name it and mainstream science is rewriting it. So I suggest that before leaping to pronounce judgement we each re-educate ourselves on the evolving "facts". It might be wise to expect that any "answers" provided by modern science will keep changing for as long as mankind keeps searching for truth.]

*The term "Dream-time" is not an indigenous term. It was invented by sociologists studying Australian Aborigines, but describes a phenomenon common to all native cultures and belief systems. I use this term in its broader sense, and not in reference to Australian natives only.

[Dumunzi]

I went and looked over the site...personally, I want to stress that this is MY opinion, I have a problem in not working with both sides of Divinty. Yes, there are Women's Mysteries and Men's Mysteries...but that shouldn't preclude work with Divinity as a whole.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

I am in agreement here. However, this I believe applies to Wiccans and those that practice and openly practice something they believe to be related to Wicca.

If your a polytheist that just follows (Insert deity) and only works with female deities, but doesn't purport at the same time a believe in a completely equal counterpart then their ok.

But if this or another group of like minded Wiccans formed together I'd take issue then.

[Morgaine_cla]

I am in agreement here. However, this I believe applies to Wiccans and those that practice and openly practice something they believe to be related to Wicca.

If your a polytheist that just follows (Insert deity) and only works with female deities, but doesn't purport at the same time a believe in a completely equal counterpart then their ok.

But if this or another group of like minded Wiccans formed together I'd take issue then.

Actually, one of the reasons I left SOA was because Avalonian Tradition originally did incorporate men's, women's, mixed circles,and other deities besides the Welsh. SOA chooses to focus solely on women, Welsh Goddesses, and the site at Glastonbury -- which is their right, of course, but it didn't work for me. I needed the whole shebang.

In any case, not all Avalonian groups are single sex circles and not all focus only on Welsh gods or goddesses. It depends on which group you're looking at. The ADO (Avalon Druid Order (http://www.AvalonDruidOrder.org)) and the British Mystery School of Avalon (http://www.britishmysteries.co.uk) (for example) both routinely work with single sex and mixed circles, feminine and masculine polarities, and all of Avalon's native (ancestral) deities, as do some independent Avalonian Groves in Ireland. Apologies if I didn't make that clear the first time!

Abundant blessings,
Morgaine

[RainInanna]

Is there a group that is NOT site-specific, and DOES have woman only groups

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings,

At present, I know of no groups exclusively for women except those that limit themselves to one site (Glastonbury). ADO and the BMOA both have separate women's and men's circles, but these groups are looking to foster balanced communities, so members are also expected to also participate in some mixed workings as well.

If I understand you correctly, what you are looking for is a Hearth circle (women only) that works with multiple Avalonian sites?... Right?... I'll have to think on this. I don't know of any in the US, but there might be some abroad... You're in Ontario, Canada?... We have one woman who is a member in Ontario, another across the lake in Rochester, and another near Montreal, but again, they're ADO members. You'd have to check out our website to see if it's something that might work for you. There's a link in the post further down the page if you like. Otherwise, I really don't know of anyone in your area. If you come across any, I'd appreciate you letting me know so I can be of more help in future.

Blessings of the journey--

[ffetcher]

Morgaine quite rightly said...


(To those who complain of the cost)... I can understand people who look at the cost and think it's all a money game for Avalon role players, but then I can also attest that spending years overseas learning traditional healing and bard-craft, and intensively working with ancient sites is not free, even for the self-taught (which I am not). People expecting to reap the benefits of someone else's efforts should be willing to offer something of equal value in exchange. When weighing up a fair exchange, you might also consider the fact that before being allowed to tutor others, Avalonians follow a course of intensive study for between seven and twenty years (depending upon the group); studies which require them to travel extensively at their own expense, even if they are not paying a mentor. Even if you feel it's unfair to pay someone to mentor you locally, you won't become competent by sitting in an armchair "channelling". There are no short cuts; the only way to learn an ancestral way is by adopting an ancestral worldview, and the only way to learn how to work with sacred sites is to spend long periods of time exploring them. You won't be doing it for free no matter who you are or where you live...


As with anything else, there are good deals and bad deals. To me a good deal is being able to learn from people whose knowledge and experience I trust, in an environment where I have access to the resources I need and where I feel safe and comfortable. Everything else is a bad deal -- no matter what the price.I completely agree, but the trick is to be able to tell the good deals from the bad ones, and that's not always easy as an outsider without personal recommendations from people you know and trust.

A few years ago I was approached to teach sacred dance as part of a course 'finding the the heart of the sacred landscape' offered by a group based in the west of England. They aren't around any more, and were nothing to do with any of the groups being discussed here, so the name doesn't matter. This course ran once a month for thirteen months and they were offering a large amount of money for one day's work at something for which I'm well qualified. Given who approached me, I assumed that they'd just had some problem - illness or something - within the group and initially expressed interest. I read the course publicity and quickly realised why they could afford to pay what they were offering. So far okay - if people were committing to travel , feed themselves and so on, once a month for the course then the fees, whilst very high by my standards, were probably affordable by the students.

The snag, when I started discussing it with friends, was that other people had been approached to teach other aspects of the syllabus - people I knew were well qualified, but that wasn't the point. There actually wasn't a group as such, just two organisers, at which point the combination of fees and what looked to me like misrepresentation started to look very much like a rip-off (the guy who made the initial approach later apologised profusely).

Three of us ducked the offer and clubbed together to run a weekend at a hotel (also in the sacred landscape, but not quite as famous an area), three two-hour sessions on Saturday, three more on Sunday. Staying over wasn't compulsory but the concessionary room rate was so good that I think everyone did and in lieu of an hour's drumming in a chambered cairn (since we couldn't get permission I doubt the other group had asked) we did an optional walk to an iron-age hilltop site to see the sunrise accompanied by a description of the archaeology and pointing out other sites nearby.

We felt it was fair to charge for our accommodation and travel, and one of us paid the bar bill by selling CDs at shop price. Now okay, if we did it regularly we'd need to make something out of it, but nothing like what amounted to a month's take-home pay for a day's work. We're good. with something like seventy years' experience between us, and I have no doubt that the teachers on the course were equally good, but they were never going to be a coherent teaching group and the way we did it meant you got three of us for quite a lot less than half the price of a single day the other way.

I had a look at all the 'teaching series' and 'sacred landscape tours/retreats' advertised in the shops in Glastonbury last week and there are several day-sessions for a lot less than fifty pounds, weekends for perhaps a hundred plus accomodation, which seems to me affordable given the quality and experience of those facilitators that I know personally. A couple run as structured series, in one case pay-per-day, the other wanting quite a lot of money up front (presumably deterring drop-outs and making planning much easier) but offering a half-day 'taster session' at what must be below cost, so that you can see what you're paying for. These people (the ones I know, anyway) aren't going to be rich anytime soon, but neither are they starving.

That seems fair to me.

blessings
ffetcher

[No More Apologies]

At present, I know of no groups exclusively for women except those that limit themselves to one site (Glastonbury). ADO and the BMOA both have separate women's and men's circles, but these groups are looking to foster balanced communities, so members are also expected to also participate in some mixed workings as well.

Thanks for sharing this, Morgaine. I can completely understand the community specific requirements, that said, I do firmly believe in the value of women-only circles for examining and dealing with some issues. Sometimes though the best thing to do is to stop trying to find new communities and start relying on the women one already can, know what I mean?

Oh well, one can only try to reach out to people so long, then it just becomes too damaging.

[Morgaine_cla]

Dear "No More Apologies" & "Ffetcher,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. Let me see if I can respond to them usefully...

(No More Apologies) I do understand what you're saying... and I'm not sure I made this clear in my previous post(s), but we do have women's only and men's only circles that remain separate -- for precisely the reasons you state. In addition to these, we have a mingled circle of women and men. I know some other groups have a similar arrangement, so what you're hoping for may be out there...

The group I work with now started as you describe. We all knew each other from other Avalonian groups or teachers, really enjoyed working together, and shared the same interest in Avalon's root (native) spirituality. Pursuing this calling meant leaving behind these other Avalonian teachers and groups, without yet having found mentors for the earlier beliefs and practices. So there was a leap of faith involved which, fortunately, paid off -- but it was certainly scary and hard while we were doing it!

I also understand how difficult it is to face continual disappointments with communities, but there are no human gatherings that are free of human failings, and sometimes the disappointments arise because our calling is somewhat different than the vision that defines our present group. We tend to come into community rather starry-eyed, but no community is perfect...

In any case, I really do hope that you find the place that's truly right for you! I don't think the path to Avalon is meant to be walked alone...

(Ffetcher) I agree -- there are a lot of scam artists out there -- on both sides of the equation. Some scammers are offering over-rated or over-priced services, training, or memberships, while others are masquerading as clients and/or members...

As regards the "services scammers", it's true that the best deals in Glaston are rarely the most expensive. In my experience, this is because a lot of the best teachers and services there share a similar ethic about what they are doing; one that places a high value on mutual support, cooperation, and even collaboration across the community, and a dedication to keeping prices reachable for most people. They see it as a spiritual imperative...

Identifying dodgy "membership groups", that can be more complicated. There is no clear pricing standard for these things. Sometimes famous people/groups charge almost nothing (sometimes they know almost nothing as well!); sometimes obscure people/groups charge a lot (and occasionally they actually have something authentic and powerful to offer). It makes no sense, so I agree -- you really do need first-hand information. But it really needs to be first-hand and not hearsay, because there's a plenty of malicious gossip out there too that ends up being repeated by people who likely have only the best of intentions.

Take our group, for example... We started as a small group of acquaintances with similar interests and training (see above). From the outset we agreed not to use any teaching materials created by modern teachers/groups, but to go back to public domain sources and core Tradition beliefs to write our own programmes, and hope for new teachers later on who could take us deeper into the Tradition's past. This came to pass; however, our noble intentions did not stop some past associates getting irate and suspicious... Soon there was talk -- and more to talk about... The "super-consumers" attracted by our offer of free services were demanding, inconsiderate, unappreciative, and were unwilling to give anything back for what they were getting from the community. Core members burnt out and serious students became frustrated. Matters came to a head when the "super-consumers" started plagiarizing, repackaging and reselling our materials as their own, and using our resources to establish and recruit members for their own groups. I can only imagine what outside observers must have thought at the time... So we regrouped, sent a lawyer after the plagiarists, imposed a heftier fee and a nine-month course for a lifetime membership, rewrote our website to make plain that "you get only as much as you're willing to give", and decided we could be very happy being small but productive with real reciprocity... Now, I am told, people think we're a cult because we "have secrets"!...:boing: So you really can't know the truth unless you know someone "inside".

I think it's also good to bear in mind there's also a learning curve with young groups/communities, quite apart from questions of quality or price. Most people are pretty naive and idealistic when starting a community. The first few times conflagrations hit them blindside, and they just react. Over time, as they percolate on the developments leading to these events and the warning signs they missed, they arrive at a plan for how to better resolve similar situations in future. At least, that's how it was for us, when we started. It's taken us a good 8 years to "age" and "mellow".:smileroll

So I've been on both sides of the situation and it's true. It is hard to know the truth about a teacher or a community. But maybe that's part of the journey too...

I hope you both find what best contents your hearts! Thanks for listening...

[ffetcher]

Morgaine, thanks for your thoughtful response. I’d like to make a few comments; where I’ve snipped part of your post in the interests of brevity, it’s because I completely agree with your point and have nothing further to add.


As regards the "services scammers", it's true that the best deals in Glaston are rarely the most expensive. In my experience, this is because a lot of the best teachers and services there share a similar ethic about what they are doing; one that places a high value on mutual support, cooperation, and even collaboration across the community, and a dedication to keeping prices reachable for most people. They see it as a spiritual imperative...

Not just Glaston; it’s been my experience throughout the UK, and in Brittany, and also in my limited experience of the East Coast US scene.



. . .
I agree -- you really do need first-hand information. But it really needs to be first-hand and not hearsay, because there's a plenty of malicious gossip out there too that ends up being repeated by people who likely have only the best of intentions.
Yep, that’s one reason why I didn’t name the organisation in my previous post. Whilst said organisation is no more, some of the people involve are still around. I have no real knowledge about the groups with which they’re now involved, so an internet forum isn’t the place to case aspersions by association. However, if anyone were to approach me personally with questions, I’d feel that it was fair to point out their previous involvement. But, this need for first-hand knowledge does make it difficult to assess what a group has to offer. My wife’s attitude is that you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find the prince; I’m less convinced, but I’ll discuss that later.



Take our group, for example... We started as a small group of acquaintances with similar interests and training (see above). From the outset we agreed not to use any teaching materials created by modern teachers/groups, but to go back to public domain sources and core Tradition beliefs to write our own programmes . . . however, our noble intentions did not stop some past associates getting irate and suspicious
. . .


A well-known precedent for this was before the Second World War when Dion Fortune was accused of oathbreaking and ‘revealing adept secrets’. Her defence was that she wasn’t an initiate at the level involved. She’d used public domain sources and her undoubted talent and experience to construct something so close as to upset the elders. :)



. . .
Core members burnt out and serious students became frustrated

This, too, I understand. For years I’ve given away my work. I now find it necessary to make clear the terms on which I do so. These are: (a) don’t expect the next installment in any given time-frame, you get it when I’ve got time; (b) there may come a time when I have to start charging; (c) just because I give my time, don’t necessarily expect everyone else to be able to do so; and (d) if I’ve arrived by public transport, a lift back to the station is appreciated. I couldn’t work with a formal group on that basis; it would be a race between burn-out and bankruptcy. To keep to schedules I’d need to schedule it into my professional life and charge accordingly.



. . .
So we regrouped, sent a lawyer after the plagiarists, imposed a heftier fee and a nine-month course for a lifetime membership, rewrote our website to make plain that "you get only as much as you're willing to give", and decided we could be very happy being small but productive with real reciprocity... Now, I am told, people think we're a cult because we "have secrets"! . . . So you really can't know the truth unless you know someone "inside".

Yep, you just can’t win.


I think it's also good to bear in mind there's also a learning curve with young groups/communities, quite apart from questions of quality or price.
. . .
So I've been on both sides of the situation and it's true. It is hard to know the truth about a teacher or a community. But maybe that's part of the journey too...


As I’ve already said, my wife would fully agree with you. But this is where I find the group scammers problematical. Not everyone can afford to devote the time or money to successive failures. I’m not saying that it should be easy, but I’ve known genuine seekers who have been so disheartened by being ripped off that they give up. It can be hard enough finding a genuine group that’s right for you, without the charlatans.


I hope you both find what best contents your hearts!

Thank-you, and I wish you the same. I can vouch for the fact that sometimes all comes right when, and in a way, that you least expect.


blessings
ffetcher

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings, Ffetcher,

I'll borrow your habit of quoting only the bits to which I am responding, if I may...


Not just Glaston; it’s been my experience throughout the UK, and in Brittany, and also in my limited experience of the East Coast US scene.

Very true! I've also found this to be the case when we've been other places abroad, though (except for the nearby town of Floyd) I've had a harder time finding it here. I am glad to hear that there are east coast places that are like this.


But, this need for first-hand knowledge does make it difficult to assess what a group has to offer. My wife’s attitude is that you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find the prince; I’m less convinced, but I’ll discuss that later.

It can make it difficult, yes... I guess my own opinions is some place between yours and your wife's. I think there are a lot fewer teachers and groups out there that really know their stuff than we'd like to think, mainly because knowing your stuff takes a lot of disciplined study and practice, and people are conditioned to want what they want now, not later. So a lot of folks rush into offering things they don't really have yet themselves. It still ends up being fraud, but without the ill intent.


A well-known precedent for this was before the Second World War when Dion Fortune was accused of oathbreaking and ‘revealing adept secrets’. Her defence was that she wasn’t an initiate at the level involved. She’d used public domain sources and her undoubted talent and experience to construct something so close as to upset the elders. :)

Interesting you should cite this example... I've actually had this experience before, several times with different people and groups. They all eventually had to retract their accusations when it came out that I'd never had contact with them. One fellow accused me of offending "camry" (whatever that is) and called me an oathbreaker, then had to apologise when his own elders informed him that wherever I'd got what I was doing, it wasn't from them!... Still, it's a weird feeling when it happens.


I couldn’t work with a formal group on that basis; it would be a race between burn-out and bankruptcy. To keep to schedules I’d need to schedule it into my professional life and charge accordingly.

I know... because I tried and we were going bankrupt whilst burning out!


But this is where I find the group scammers problematical. Not everyone can afford to devote the time or money to successive failures. I’m not saying that it should be easy, but I’ve known genuine seekers who have been so disheartened by being ripped off that they give up. It can be hard enough finding a genuine group that’s right for you, without the charlatans.

I agree. And it's a two-fold problem: (1) people who've no idea what they're doing, but have decided to "get in on a good thing" and market themselves as if they did; and (2) people who know they're stuff, but for whatever reason are damaging as teachers. I don't know any Neopagans who would trust a "central authority" (other then themselves) to certify competent metaphysical teachers. Our website hosts a "Hedgerow School" page where we publish coursework and links to other Avalonian teachers and groups whose work and teaching practices we know first-hand and accept within our Order, but this does have a limited value.

Frankly, I'm at a loss for what else can be done. Even were a panel of experts assembled whose overriding authority we all accepted, the very practices and affiliations that made them *experts* would create conflicts of interest. Also, do we want to sacrifice individual and group sovereignty by putting it at the mercy of a body whose very authority is bound to eventually corrupt it? Perhaps we should establish a Pagan "better business bureau" to investigate complaints and publish the results online?...

I don't have the answer, but it's a problem that needs addressing if any of our spiritual paths are to mature. Perhaps people could post their suggestions (and counter-suggestions) here?


I can vouch for the fact that sometimes all comes right when, and in a way, that you least expect.
blessings
ffetcher

I agree. It all comes round right in the end. Truth will out; it's more durable than fiction, as they say.

Be well and be blessed!

[No More Apologies]

(No More Apologies) We tend to come into community rather starry-eyed, but no community is perfect...

In any case, I really do hope that you find the place that's truly right for you! I don't think the path to Avalon is meant to be walked alone...

I think we agree entirely. And I love how you put it too.

The monsters and guides along the way are IMHO specific to the individual rather than the community. With Avalon I have certain symbolic words I feel are essential, yet it is not physically site specific so much as energy and myth specific to me.

One can only heal inward before becoming a strong part of a community. Sometimes it takes awhile, and sometimes it means leaving one community or another behind, just as you mention :) I think for me, I was just spending too much time trying to fit in a community rather than building one from my heart and mind up. Sometimes you learn even though the community hurts because you've changed, you don't anymore. One only has so many apologies :)

YMMV of course.

[Morgaine_cla]

I think we agree entirely. And I love how you put it too. The monsters and guides along the way are IMHO specific to the individual rather than the community. With Avalon I have certain symbolic words I feel are essential, yet it is not physically site specific so much as energy and myth specific to me.

Greetings, once again!...

Yes, I think we do agree, and I thank you for your kind words. I think you have an interesting point about the monsters and guides we meet along the way being specific to the individual (although I would also say that groups evolve their own collective monsters sometimes).


With Avalon I have certain symbolic words I feel are essential, yet it is not physically site specific so much as energy and myth specific to me.

Hmmm... I don't want to seem to be dictating your Avalon practice (and I realise that you may already have thought of this), but have you considered that these symbolic words may be personal "keys"? While it is true that landscape keys are the first that come to my mind, there are also keys for working with specific deities, ancestors, Avalonian ancestral Tribes, etc. that can be used by you as an individual regardless of which group you might eventually work with...


I think for me, I was just spending too much time trying to fit in a community rather than building one from my heart and mind up. Sometimes you learn even though the community hurts because you've changed, you don't anymore. One only has so many apologies :)

I understand and I agree completely. I found leaving past teachers and groups incredibly hard -- harder than it should have been because those I left converted their hurt feelings to anger, and that anger remains a wedge between us -- but I've never regretted doing what was necessary, and ultimately in the highest good of all. It takes strength and courage. But as you also know, the only *right* path is the heart's path.

Thank you once again for your kind reply. I wish you every blessing on your spiritual journey!