Psuedo-History and religious bigotry amongst Hellenic Recons?

[David19]

I haven't really been around much 'cause of doing my dissertation, but, recently I was just doing an interner search (randomly Googling Pagan stuff), and I found this thread on a Hellenic Recon forum (http://hellenismos.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=121&p=629&hilit=Yahweh#p629), and, one of the posters is just anti-Christian, to an almost ridiculous point, but, that's not the thing that really bothers me (I've come to accept, unfortunely, some Pagans will always be assholes, no matter what their religion, or tradition), he (or she, I'm not quite sure of their gender), basically, uses psuedo-history, to say that the ancient Greeks, and Greece, is the "best", and "started" civilization (I know, ancient Greece contributed a lot to the western world, but, there are many other contributions).

Here's just some of the BS he/she states, BTW, the person's username is EARBLUESMAN:


Archeology tells us that the Hellenic world is the cradle of civilization. Do you know, for example, that in Greece we have pyramides older than the egyptian?

Really?, I want to see some major evidence backing that up, 'cause, I'd say the Sumerian Ziggurat, Egyptian Pyramids, and Ethiopian monuments are the oldest (in fact, I've been told that the Sumerians and the Egyptians got the designs/idea from the Ethiopians).

Maybe this person just doesn't think people with darker skin, or from the Middle East, or Africa, are "intelligent" enough.


Well, the Sumerians are Minoans!!!

15 years ago archeologists found greek letters from 5260 b.c. in a place called Dispilio in Macedonia - Kastoria:

Where's the evidence?, I'm a Sumerian Recon, and I have not once read the Sumerians are "Minoans", in fact, the Sumerians origins are shrounded in mystery, so, has this person now suddenly got the ability to see far, far back into the mists of time? :rolleyes:. Also, I may not be as well-read on Sumerian or Mesopotamian history yet, but, I know several people who are (one on another board is a professional scholar/academic), and not once has this been mentioned.

There's other stuff on the page, but, a lot of what this person says is, IMO, just BS.

I'm not denying the ancient Greeks didn't contribute a lot, but, it's not the be-all-and-end-all of the world, there are many other impressive cultures and civilizations, ancient and modern. Also, while it can be said, the ancient Greeks gave the western world democracy, other concepts and ideas, etc, it should be remembered, the Sumerians gave us cities, laws, writing, mathmatics, astrology, the first forms of democracy were found in what is now Basra, Iraq, you want to get into religion, then, the Sumerians also influenced (or if you're a soft polytheist, who believes the Gods are the same), gave, a lot of the Greeks their Gods (the Sumerian Utu - influenced the Greek Apollo, Inanna, it's been said Nergal influenced the development of Aries, and Herculies, etc).

Like I said, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to say Sumer, or the Sumerians, are "better", or trying to downplay the achievements, accomplishments, and gifts, the ancient Greeks gave us, but, I just don't like how this person seems to think the entire world revolves around ancient Greece, or the Greeks.

Anyway, I hope you don't mind me posting this, and I would be interested in hearing your thoughts :).




Jack M. Sasson - Civilizations of the Ancient Near East Zeus Hypsitos

[Halstrom]

EARBLUESMAN is from Greece, and those that follow the ancient Gods of Greece, face a lot of hostility from the Christians in Greece. They have no freedom of religion there, and the Greek Orthodox church is basically the state religion. So of course theres going to be a lot of hostility towards Christians.

After I get home from class tonight, I'll over the rest of the thread that you linked to.

[David19]

EARBLUESMAN is from Greece, and those that follow the ancient Gods of Greece, face a lot of hostility from the Christians in Greece. They have no freedom of religion there, and the Greek Orthodox church is basically the state religion. So of course theres going to be a lot of hostility towards Christians.

After I get home from class tonight, I'll over the rest of the thread that you linked to.

I didn't know that, but, thanks for telling me, although, IMO, I don't think that's any excuse for psuedo-history ('cause, if the Sumerians origins were revealed to be Minoans, I would have heard about it, the fact is they are a non-Indo-European people).

[Halstrom]

Well, the last two items that you quoted were actually said by STEPHANOS: here (http://hellenismos.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=121&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20#p638) and here (http://hellenismos.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=121&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20#p646).

I don't know what his statements were about, because to be quite frank a lot of that discussion went so far over my head that it ain't funny. In fact, a lot of the discussions that they were involved in went over my head,

[YoungSoulRebel]

EARBLUESMAN is from Greece, and those that follow the ancient Gods of Greece, face a lot of hostility from the Christians in Greece. They have no freedom of religion there, and the Greek Orthodox church is basically the state religion. So of course theres going to be a lot of hostility towards Christians.

After I get home from class tonight, I'll over the rest of the thread that you linked to.

I don't totally see how that excuses the proliferation of bullpucky, though. I went to high school in a sub-rural area where, frankly, if you weren't Catholic or Quaker or Assembly of God, you were a "devil worshipper" and that wreaked havoc on yours and your entire family's social life, to say the least. I know it's not the exact same as the situation in Greece, but gawd, if that experience didn't wind up driving *me* to making shit up just cos I was outnumbered by a dominating Christian presence, then I don't really see why it's an excuse for anybody else.

Being a Greek National should not be a "get out of jail free" card when the facts speak against one.

[David19]

I don't totally see how that excuses the proliferation of bullpucky, though. I went to high school in a sub-rural area where, frankly, if you weren't Catholic or Quaker or Assembly of God, you were a "devil worshipper" and that wreaked havoc on yours and your entire family's social life, to say the least. I know it's not the exact same as the situation in Greece, but gawd, if that experience didn't wind up driving *me* to making shit up just cos I was outnumbered by a dominating Christian presence, then I don't really see why it's an excuse for anybody else.

Being a Greek National should not be a "get out of jail free" card when the facts speak against one.

QFT, I can feel for them, and, like I said, I do support them, and hope they get legal recognition for their religion, I actually had no idea about how what religious freedom was like in Greece. That doesn't mean, it gives someone a right to bash another religion, I mean, does the Holocaust give every Jew a right to bash the German people?, I think not.

Also, it doesn't excuse psuedo-scholarship, like stating "the Sumerians are Minoans", now, if they have some serious archeological evidence to back that up, I want to see it, I'd also imagine every other Sumerian Recon, and every Sumerian scholar would love to see it too.

This is just my opinion, and I've no idea how others feel, but, I'm not that impressed with this group, or YSEE (http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php) as they're also called. I'm more impressed with the Hellenic Recons I've seen on MW, and other Recon boards. I'm sure there are some very cool people in YSEE, it's a shame they don't get out much on the internet (or, on English-speaking sites, like this).

[YoungSoulRebel]

QFT, I can feel for them, and, like I said, I do support them, and hope they get legal recognition for their religion, I actually had no idea about how what religious freedom was like in Greece. That doesn't mean, it gives someone a right to bash another religion, I mean, does the Holocaust give every Jew a right to bash the German people?, I think not.

Also, it doesn't excuse psuedo-scholarship, like stating "the Sumerians are Minoans", now, if they have some serious archeological evidence to back that up, I want to see it, I'd also imagine every other Sumerian Recon, and every Sumerian scholar would love to see it too.

This is just my opinion, and I've no idea how others feel, but, I'm not that impressed with this group, or YSEE (http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php) as they're also called. I'm more impressed with the Hellenic Recons I've seen on MW, and other Recon boards. I'm sure there are some very cool people in YSEE, it's a shame they don't get out much on the internet (or, on English-speaking sites, like this).
Ah, I love these responses that tread the thin line between Godwin and making a clear point -- this, though, very obviously makes a clear point. You'd be invoking Godwin's law if, on the other hand, you conpared this pseudo-scholarship to the Third Reich. ;-)

As one of the Greek nationals on, I think it was the Kyklos Apollon list, maybe they're on Hellenic_Recons, too, once said: "[somewhat paraphrased] YSEE is very far from the end-all/be-all of Hellenic polytheism/reconstruction within Greece herself. YSEE is just the most media-savvy HP group who has thus earned the loudest voices."

As much as I appreciate what YSEE does (they *have* made great strides in getting polytheists the legal right to practise), but sometimes I just shake my head -- like how with every interview and/or press release, somehow according to their numbers, Greece gains another 7,000-12,000 polytheists in sometimes mere days (and according to YSEE, the whole of Europe seems to have gone from about 10K to 150K Hellenic polytheists in a mere five years! astounding! :eyeroll: ). They have a bad habit of inflating their head-count for the press and that just makes them look... morally sketchy, to me.

[Halstrom]

I don't totally see how that excuses the proliferation of bullpucky, though. I went to high school in a sub-rural area where, frankly, if you weren't Catholic or Quaker or Assembly of God, you were a "devil worshipper" and that wreaked havoc on yours and your entire family's social life, to say the least. I know it's not the exact same as the situation in Greece, but gawd, if that experience didn't wind up driving *me* to making shit up just cos I was outnumbered by a dominating Christian presence, then I don't really see why it's an excuse for anybody else.

Being a Greek National should not be a "get out of jail free" card when the facts speak against one.

I never said it was. I was explaining the anti-Christian statements, not the historical inaccuracies. If either STEPHANOS or EARBLUESMAN posted on Hellenismos.us anymore, I would ask them to come here and defend themselves, but they don't and I'm not a member of the YSEE forums.


This is just my opinion, and I've no idea how others feel, but, I'm not that impressed with this group, or YSEE (http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php) as they're also called.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel this way. I find that the Hellenismos.us website is a great resource for information.

[Kadynas]

They can be quite informative, but too often they seem to think that their way is the only correct way. Their definition of what is and isn't Hellenismos is a bit too narrow for the reality of the religion's practitioners, and dissent is not encouraged: one can be Hellenismos and not agree with them on everything but good luck making that point. LOL I still read there occasionally but I take most things with a healthy spoonful of salt, especially the characterizations of those who dare disagree with those running the site.

[YoungSoulRebel]

They can be quite informative, but too often they seem to think that their way is the only correct way. Their definition of what is and isn't Hellenismos is a bit too narrow for the reality of the religion's practitioners, and dissent is not encouraged: one can be Hellenismos and not agree with them on everything but good luck making that point. LOL I still read there occasionally but I take most things with a healthy spoonful of salt, especially the characterizations of those who dare disagree with those running the site.

Well-said and quoted for truth.

I'm now taking bets for how long it'll be until Tim comes to tell everybody that anything but "Classical Athenian" ritual combined Platonic theology is doing Hellenismos WRONG!

I call dibs on four-and-a-half hours from now.

[*~Amora~*]

I'd agree that good scholarship (intellectual honesty, avoiding plagiarism, checking and citing sources, etc.) is the cornerstone of a good argument, whatever point one is trying to make. An argument is weak without it.

But, if I am sensing correctly, the underlying question in this thread is "does this person in question represent Hellenic Recon.s as a whole"? And I would say that the answer is firmly no. I think it's important to criticize actions, not condemn the person or group, be it this EARBLUESMAN or one species of Christian or another.

[YoungSoulRebel]

I'd agree that good scholarship (intellectual honesty, avoiding plagiarism, checking and citing sources, etc.) is the cornerstone of a good argument, whatever point one is trying to make. An argument is weak without it.

But, if I am sensing correctly, the underlying question in this thread is "does this person in question represent Hellenic Recon.s as a whole"? And I would say that the answer is firmly no. I think it's important to criticize actions, not condemn the person or group, be it this EARBLUESMAN or one species of Christian or another.

Oh, I don't necessarily think that's the underlying tone -- and if I somehow aided in giving that impression, I whole-heartedly apologise.

Other than that, I generally agree with you: Ultimately, a person's actions should be judged before they themselves, m uch less any group that they're associated with, and the individual actions and/or thoughts of one person or group are hardly representative of the whole of the worldwide population of Hellenistai.

[*~Amora~*]

Oh, I don't necessarily think that's the underlying tone -- and if I somehow aided in giving that impression, I whole-heartedly apologise.

Other than that, I generally agree with you: Ultimately, a person's actions should be judged before they themselves, m uch less any group that they're associated with, and the individual actions and/or thoughts of one person or group are hardly representative of the whole of the worldwide population of Hellenistai.

No worries. My reply wasn't targeted at a specific person, but just stating my opinion in general on the matter. No need to appologize. :)

[patch]

This is just my opinion, and I've no idea how others feel, but, I'm not that impressed with this group, or YSEE (http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php) as they're also called. I'm more impressed with the Hellenic Recons I've seen on MW, and other Recon boards. I'm sure there are some very cool people in YSEE, it's a shame they don't get out much on the internet (or, on English-speaking sites, like this).

That group and YSEE aren't the same. Unless I misinterpreted, and you werent talking about hellenismos.us anymore?

YSEE is massive and do LOADS in greece, but I disagree with a couple of their bylaws.

[David19]

Ah, I love these responses that tread the thin line between Godwin and making a clear point -- this, though, very obviously makes a clear point. You'd be invoking Godwin's law if, on the other hand, you conpared this pseudo-scholarship to the Third Reich. ;-)

As one of the Greek nationals on, I think it was the Kyklos Apollon list, maybe they're on Hellenic_Recons, too, once said: "[somewhat paraphrased] YSEE is very far from the end-all/be-all of Hellenic polytheism/reconstruction within Greece herself. YSEE is just the most media-savvy HP group who has thus earned the loudest voices."

As much as I appreciate what YSEE does (they *have* made great strides in getting polytheists the legal right to practise), but sometimes I just shake my head -- like how with every interview and/or press release, somehow according to their numbers, Greece gains another 7,000-12,000 polytheists in sometimes mere days (and according to YSEE, the whole of Europe seems to have gone from about 10K to 150K Hellenic polytheists in a mere five years! astounding! :eyeroll: ). They have a bad habit of inflating their head-count for the press and that just makes them look... morally sketchy, to me.

I have no doubt they've done some good for Hellenic Recons, and the Hellenic religion, but, it seems they are also don't know when to shut their mouths. I'm glad there are other Hellenic Recon organisations within Greece, it's a shame the others aren't well-known like this one (I think I've also seen someone from YSEE say there's thousands of Hellenic Recons within Europe, now, I don't know about Greece, but, if you were to go out to the average person in the UK, or any other European country, it's very doubtful they'd have any clue what Hellenic Reconstructionism was).

[David19]

I never said it was. I was explaining the anti-Christian statements, not the historical inaccuracies. If either STEPHANOS or EARBLUESMAN posted on Hellenismos.us anymore, I would ask them to come here and defend themselves, but they don't and I'm not a member of the YSEE forums.

I think, if they really wanted to impress people, they could be the "bigger man", and not result to bashing another religion (and, BTW, does anyone know why they have the word "gentile" in their name, I mean, gentile means non-Jew).



I'm sorry to hear that you feel this way. I find that the Hellenismos.us website is a great resource for information.

It does have some good posts, and I've learnt quite a bit about the Hellenic religion there (that said, I'm not a Hellenic Pagan or Recon).

[David19]

They can be quite informative, but too often they seem to think that their way is the only correct way. Their definition of what is and isn't Hellenismos is a bit too narrow for the reality of the religion's practitioners, and dissent is not encouraged: one can be Hellenismos and not agree with them on everything but good luck making that point. LOL I still read there occasionally but I take most things with a healthy spoonful of salt, especially the characterizations of those who dare disagree with those running the site.


Well-said and quoted for truth.

I'm now taking bets for how long it'll be until Tim comes to tell everybody that anything but "Classical Athenian" ritual combined Platonic theology is doing Hellenismos WRONG!

I call dibs on four-and-a-half hours from now.

QFT :thumbsup:, or, how believing the Gods to be distinct (i.e. the Sumerian, Egyptian, Canaanite, etc Gods are not just different "forms" of the Greek Gods) is somehow "inferior"!.

[YoungSoulRebel]

...(and, BTW, does anyone know why they have the word "gentile" in their name, I mean, gentile means non-Jew).

Yeah, it's because some time earlier this year, Tim Alexander looked at the etymology of "gentile" and apparently the original Hebrew form was used to refer to the ancient polytheistic Greeks and Romans, but considering that the ancient Jews in Hellas and Roma had little contact with anybody else, it just begs to reason that colloquial use of the word to encompass *all* non-Jews hasn't really changed much -- and this is the same guy who will then contradict himself and say that etymology and dictionary definitions don't matter when somebody is self-applying the term "pagan" because to the greater world at large, "Pagan" means "fluff-bunny sweetness-and-light New Age hippy", never mind that "gentile", colloquially and by dictionary definition, means something completely different from what Tim Alexander thinks it does.



It does have some good posts, and I've learnt quite a bit about the Hellenic religion there (that said, I'm not a Hellenic Pagan or Recon).

Well, that forum came along quite some time *after* I had re-discovered Hellenic polytheism, but I really can't say that there is anything on that site as a whole that can't be learned better, elsewhere. Even Tim Alexander's book are about half filled (sometimes more) by appendixes of (presumably public domain -- I hope for his sake that it's all public domain) translated primary sources (he's admitted on one list or another that both a. he can't speak or read any form of Greek and b. he's pretty much against the idea of learning it), id est, Plato, Hesiod, Homer, etc..., and when a guy who wants to be a if not the primary (or only?) voice for hellenismos in the English-speaking world can't even run a spell-check and Grammar-check in MS-Word 2K just to make sure his Lulu Press books are all readable by people who've actually retained their fourth grade educations, that doesn't tell me that he actually *thinks* about what he says.

See, the thing about text-based communication, be it a message board or a book, is that your intellect is *judged* based on how you write and how much thought and effort that you've apparently put into writing it. Tim Alexander is all about stream-of-consciousness more than the "reason" he purports to espouse over illogic. He says one thing, but his actions scream the exact opposite. He's also been banned from the Hellenic_Recons list for his temper and belligerence and the woman currently leading hellenion has expressed in so many words that he just isn't welcome on even their public "Hellenion_Chat" list for just those reasons. He's basically a pariah in the English-speaking Hellenic community and a total brown-noser of YSEE, and he's very proud of that.

Personally? I agree with some of what he says, but obviously not all of it (for starters, he purports a "pure Hellenismos" is all about Classical-period Athenian practise, and most of my practise is Boeotian/Thespian in origin, especially the Cult of Eros practise and influence). I've been very patient with him numerous times and it just typically does not end well -- he's not good at argueing with people because he's very quick to drawing slippery-slope fallacies, appeal to tradition fallacies (id est: the older it is, the better, simply because it's old), and he's a HUGE fan of putting words in people's mouths and taking little things that they said weeks or months or *years* ago out of context and calling you a "liar" if you've since changed your mind or said the thing in jest. I sort of want to like him, but it's rather hard when he puts so much effort into being unlikeable.

[Halstrom]

(and, BTW, does anyone know why they have the word "gentile" in their name, I mean, gentile means non-Jew).

I'm going to assume that you're talking about the use of the word Ethnikoi in their name. Here's the official reason that they give for using the term Ethnikoi:


In general, the term Ethnikos refers to those who live and conduct themselves in accordance with their native identity and values

Judaism ... refers to all non-Jews as Goyim (beasts). This term was mistranslated by the Alexandrian interpreters of the Septuagint as 'ta Ethnoi' (nations) or 'hoi Ethnikoi', in Greek and 'Gentiles' in Latin. We elevate and purify the term by 'returning' it to its original meaning. Hence, maintaining the differences it implies between us and the followers of the Abrahamic faiths and their associated values.

[Halstrom]

and when a guy who wants to be a if not the primary (or only?) voice for hellenismos in the English-speaking world can't even run a spell-check and Grammar-check in MS-Word 2K just to make sure his Lulu Press books are all readable by people who've actually retained their fourth grade educations, that doesn't tell me that he actually *thinks* about what he says.

When I read his book A Beginner's Guide to Hellenismos, I had absolutely no trouble understanding it. Any errors that might have been in there were so far and in-between that they had absolutely no impact on my ability to read and understand his book.

And for not being published by a mainstream , and having to do the whole proofreading himself, (I think that Twinkle might have helped with the proof reading, but I may be wrong on this) of course there's going to be mistakes no ones perfect.

[YoungSoulRebel]

When I read his book A Beginner's Guide to Hellenismos, I had absolutely no trouble understanding it. Any errors that might have been in there were so far and in-between that they had absolutely no impact on my ability to read and understand his book.

Might have been? Oh, L-O-huging-L! You make me laugh, sweetie, you really do. Even just the preview on Google Books is enough to display the fact that Tim's skills at written English are dubious, at best. The only people who wouldn't be able to tell are people who skills are also severely lacking.



And for not being published by a mainstream , and having to do the whole proofreading himself, (I think that Twinkle might have helped with the proof reading, but I may be wrong on this) of course there's going to be mistakes no ones perfect.

Honey, even in books published through professional houses, there are occasional errors here and there, but you know what? Looking at Sarah Winter's equally self-published book, her quality control is comparatively immaculate to Tim (and possibly Lisa) giving it a once-over in WordPad. You know what self-publishing means? I means you have to work two to three times as hard to make the finished work look respectable. Tim's editing job and lack of original content alone are the reasons so many people think self-published works are a joke -- so many wanna-be's have such a lacking sense of professionalism that it's pretty laughable.

[David19]

Yeah, it's because some time earlier this year, Tim Alexander looked at the etymology of "gentile" and apparently the original Hebrew form was used to refer to the ancient polytheistic Greeks and Romans, but considering that the ancient Jews in Hellas and Roma had little contact with anybody else, it just begs to reason that colloquial use of the word to encompass *all* non-Jews hasn't really changed much -- and this is the same guy who will then contradict himself and say that etymology and dictionary definitions don't matter when somebody is self-applying the term "pagan" because to the greater world at large, "Pagan" means "fluff-bunny sweetness-and-light New Age hippy", never mind that "gentile", colloquially and by dictionary definition, means something completely different from what Tim Alexander thinks it does.

Great points, you'd think a group that wanted to gain positive publicity, and as media savvy as YSSE seem to be, they'd realise calling themselves a non-Jewish group isn't going to win them any favours, or friends, allies, etc.



Well, that forum came along quite some time *after* I had re-discovered Hellenic polytheism, but I really can't say that there is anything on that site as a whole that can't be learned better, elsewhere. Even Tim Alexander's book are about half filled (sometimes more) by appendixes of (presumably public domain -- I hope for his sake that it's all public domain) translated primary sources (he's admitted on one list or another that both a. he can't speak or read any form of Greek and b. he's pretty much against the idea of learning it), id est, Plato, Hesiod, Homer, etc..., and when a guy who wants to be a if not the primary (or only?) voice for hellenismos in the English-speaking world can't even run a spell-check and Grammar-check in MS-Word 2K just to make sure his Lulu Press books are all readable by people who've actually retained their fourth grade educations, that doesn't tell me that he actually *thinks* about what he says.

See, the thing about text-based communication, be it a message board or a book, is that your intellect is *judged* based on how you write and how much thought and effort that you've apparently put into writing it. Tim Alexander is all about stream-of-consciousness more than the "reason" he purports to espouse over illogic. He says one thing, but his actions scream the exact opposite. He's also been banned from the Hellenic_Recons list for his temper and belligerence and the woman currently leading hellenion has expressed in so many words that he just isn't welcome on even their public "Hellenion_Chat" list for just those reasons. He's basically a pariah in the English-speaking Hellenic community and a total brown-noser of YSEE, and he's very proud of that.

Personally? I agree with some of what he says, but obviously not all of it (for starters, he purports a "pure Hellenismos" is all about Classical-period Athenian practise, and most of my practise is Boeotian/Thespian in origin, especially the Cult of Eros practise and influence). I've been very patient with him numerous times and it just typically does not end well -- he's not good at argueing with people because he's very quick to drawing slippery-slope fallacies, appeal to tradition fallacies (id est: the older it is, the better, simply because it's old), and he's a HUGE fan of putting words in people's mouths and taking little things that they said weeks or months or *years* ago out of context and calling you a "liar" if you've since changed your mind or said the thing in jest. I sort of want to like him, but it's rather hard when he puts so much effort into being unlikeable.

I've never read his book (only browsed them on Google Books), so, I can't comment about the content of them, although, I'm wondering why he's self-published, I mean, there are plenty of non-fluffy, non-Llewellyn publishers out there, why make things harder on yourself, didn't that guy who wrote 'Old Stones, New Temples' have his book published by a professional publisher?, that should so that there's at least some market for Hellenic Recon books.

Also, if he thinks "older means better", why then, I guess I'm practicing the best religion in the world - as the Sumerian religion is the oldest we know anything about (there are older paths out there, but, we don't know anything about them, and they are, probably, African (being that, that's where humanity came from)!.

[David19]

I'm going to assume that you're talking about the use of the word Ethnikoi in their name. Here's the official reason that they give for using the term Ethnikoi:


In general, the term Ethnikos refers to those who live and conduct themselves in accordance with their native identity and values

Judaism ... refers to all non-Jews as Goyim (beasts). This term was mistranslated by the Alexandrian interpreters of the Septuagint as 'ta Ethnoi' (nations) or 'hoi Ethnikoi', in Greek and 'Gentiles' in Latin. We elevate and purify the term by 'returning' it to its original meaning. Hence, maintaining the differences it implies between us and the followers of the Abrahamic faiths and their associated values.

I'm still unsure why they use the word?, they want to make out they're non-Jewish?, I think, most people will get that (people aren't dumb, they know that if you're worshipping Zeus, etc, and not HaShem/YHWH, it's not Judaism).

You would think they could just come up with a better name, or how about just Hellenismos(sp?).


When I read his book A Beginner's Guide to Hellenismos, I had absolutely no trouble understanding it. Any errors that might have been in there were so far and in-between that they had absolutely no impact on my ability to read and understand his book.

And for not being published by a mainstream , and having to do the whole proofreading himself, (I think that Twinkle might have helped with the proof reading, but I may be wrong on this) of course there's going to be mistakes no ones perfect.

Again, I haven't read his books, but, you are right no one's perfect, so, I wouldn't hold mistakes against him, but, why self-publish?, why not go to a academic, or professional publisher?.

[Fiamma]

Again, I haven't read his books, but, you are right no one's perfect, so, I wouldn't hold mistakes against him, but, why self-publish?, why not go to a academic, or professional publisher?.

Publishing houses and academic presses won't just take any manuscript that comes their way (Even Llewelyn turns people away) Anyone with a computer and a credit card can self-publish.

[Halstrom]

Again, I haven't read his books, but, you are right no one's perfect, so, I wouldn't hold mistakes against him, but, why self-publish?, why not go to a academic, or professional publisher?.

Because going with a professional publisher requires a lot of money, and with a book on a subject that isn't guarenteed to reach a large number of people, it would be cost prohibitive to go with professional publishers. At least that is my understanding.

[Twinkle]

I'm just curious how the topic turned from something regarding historical accuracy to a personal bashing of Tim Alexander occurred.


Yeah...you don't like the guy, that's nothing new. Why don't you talk about the issue instead of Tim...who didn't write the offensive post in the first place?

I find this feuding across boards reprehensible, and ultimately cowardice.

Tim has better things to do with his time than fight with you all. If you don't like what he says or how he runs his board, then don't go there.

To come here and bash him on a personal level, imo, is not only inappropriate, but completely against what it is to be a Hellene.

Those of you claiming to be Hellenes should be ashamed of yourselves.


He is still a member here, and though he doesn't post with any regularity, is still deserving of the Respect Rule here...just as any other member here is.

[Halstrom]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing Twinkle.

[Phoenix Blue]

He is still a member here, and though he doesn't post with any regularity, is still deserving of the Respect Rule here...just as any other member here is.
Except that calling someone out on his behavior isn't disrespectful, nor is critiquing his work.

[Twinkle]

What behavior? He hasn't even posted here in months...And how does that apply to Historical accuracy on a post that he didn't make?

How does any of it have to do with anything in regard to *this* thread and the original post?

And how is it respectful to *call out* another member on behavior that doesn't even apply to this board? Or the post in question that was linked?

I don't care about critiquing. Free publicity is free publicity. What I do care about is that his character is being called into question over what? People not liking how he runs his board? That's how it started with Kadynas' first post on the subject.

ETA: I can't tell if you're in Admin mode or not. If you are, I'm sorry. If you're not, I'm assuming that it's OK to respond.

[Twinkle]

In any event....one post on one forum board by one member of a very large organization is hardly a justification for discounting YSEE.

Here is a blog regarding YSEE and the various things they have been accused of, and how it really is bogus. You'll see that an Officer of the Organization did respond.

http://hellenismos.us/?p=120

If anyone truly cares to know their stance, instead of making an uneducated opinion based on one post, you can easily join...they have an English Speaking Forum. Or, you could simply go to their FAQ page. There you will get the facts.

Instead of criticizing an organization that you have never been a part of, or have spoken to any of the leadership of...it may behoove you to go straight to the source and then give your opinion. Anything else is based on an outside perception that really has no basis, other than "you just feel that way." At least then you would have something with some substance to back you up. I'm using "you" in the general sense, not calling anyone out in particular.


http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=english&f=faq


In regard to Timothy Alexander, I know him. The rest of you think you do. He is open to honest conversation, he can and will back up what he says. He is abrasive, he is to the point, he pulls no punches. Some people respect that...others think he's an asshole.

That's fine, think what you want.

You may not like his books. You don't have to. There is one written by Sarah Kate Istra Winter that I personally think is horrendous...and I suppose I was being polite by not saying so earlier. Bad Twinkle. Won't do that again.

If the majority of your problem with Tim's books is that they were poorly edited, then lessoned learned. Professional editing can't be beat. Are ya happy?

The Gods of Reason? Anyone read it? Patch? You did...and you liked it. Funny how you didn't speak up here in your defense of it.

Let's see, what else....oh yeah...you don't like how he runs his board. You don't have to. It's his board. When you start paying for the server then you can tell him how to run it. Not.

If you don't like it...don't go there. No board is for everyone. We are not trying to win a popularity contest. We are who we are, and for those that want to participate there...we have drawn our line in the sand.

There are plenty of other places for you to go...and I'm sure most of you are already there....eagerly typing away about what a big asshole he is. Guess what? He doesn't care.

I care. And obviously I care too much about what any of you have to say about him.

He is who he is. Love him, hate him, whatever. It won't change anything. He's still going to be writing books, running his site, and calling out crap. It's what he does to protect the integrity of Hellenismos, to educate, and dispense accurate information, and he is not alone in doing it. If you'd like to debate him, feel free to do so. It makes me smile to see you all scatter here to post your criticisms...a board he doesn't even come to with any amount of frequency. Scared much?

Discredit YSEE if you like, but the fact remains that they are the largest Hellenic Recon organization out there with real numbers, doing real things for their religion, putting out videos and information on their ethnic religion, and expanding into the United States. They are now in New York, in addition to Canada and Australia.

[YoungSoulRebel]

Great points, you'd think a group that wanted to gain positive publicity, and as media savvy as YSSE seem to be, they'd realise calling themselves a non-Jewish group isn't going to win them any favours, or friends, allies, etc.

Well, they're "purifying" the term by paltry attempts at making it "exclusive" to Greek polytheists! :eyeroll Basically, I agree -- their logic simply does not compute. English is a *living* language -- that means the meanings of words become altered over time and while "reclaiming" words (such as feminists reclaiming "b i t c h" and "c u n t" -- check out the magazine and the book of named such, respectively) can be a noble thing, in some cases, it can be very confusing and problematic. This is one of those times when I think that "gentile" can come off as either over-intellectualising things (something Tim Alexander likes to chastise certain other people for, but apparently has no problem doing, himself, or allowing for others to do) *or* possibly as, well, anti-Semetic. In English, "gentile" and "ethnic" have very specific usage and connotation, and trying to subvert those definitions can still rub people the wrong way.



I've never read his book (only browsed them on Google Books), so, I can't comment about the content of them, although, I'm wondering why he's self-published, I mean, there are plenty of non-fluffy, non-Llewellyn publishers out there, why make things harder on yourself, didn't that guy who wrote 'Old Stones, New Temples' have his book published by a professional publisher?, that should so that there's at least some market for Hellenic Recon books.

Well... At least as it is now, Xlibris Books, the publisher for Old Stones, New Temples, is currently another print-on-demand service, like Lulu.com or CreateSpace (the service Sarah Winter, author of KHARIS: Hellenic Polytheism Explored uses). I don't know if it was at the time it was published, but it was really well-done, if it was print-on-demand.



Also, if he thinks "older means better", why then, I guess I'm practicing the best religion in the world - as the Sumerian religion is the oldest we know anything about (there are older paths out there, but, we don't know anything about them, and they are, probably, African (being that, that's where humanity came from)!.

Indeed! Obviously, you're our better. ;)



Publishing houses and academic presses won't just take any manuscript that comes their way (Even Llewelyn turns people away) Anyone with a computer and a credit card can self-publish.

Hell, you don't even need a credit card -- this is coming from somebody who published his first novel via Lulu with just a PayPal account and a chequing account (it was another year before my bank let me have a MasterCard/debit/cheque-card).



Because going with a professional publisher requires a lot of money, and with a book on a subject that isn't guarenteed to reach a large number of people, it would be cost prohibitive to go with professional publishers. At least that is my understanding.

Then you don't understand much: What you describe is the difference between a "vanity press" and "print on demand" self-publishing.

The basic process for getting a book to a regular publisher (and I should know, I've been proposing novels left and right lately) is thus:

1) Find a publishers and send them a one- to five-page description, an excerpt (if requested), a page of information about yourself, and any other material they request for your proposal.

2) If your book is accepted, then contracts are arranged; some contracts (like some record labels) require that the author pays all or part of the print cost, but this is usually deducted from royalties.

3) With the better or at least more famous and thus "richer" houses, you may be offered a cash advance upon the finished manustript -- this amount of money typically does not exceed the first year's worth of expected royalties on the book, and the publishing house may request any unearned portion be payed back, but usually as long as the book is selling, this almost never happens.

As you can see, typically speaking, going with a publishing house costs a writer virtually nothing, out of pocket, no counting time and postage stamps (most publishing houses still prefer documents be snail-mailed and not e-mailed, an prefer printed over burned-to-disc, in fact, every publisher I've looked into or dealt with said they don't even look at e-mailed proposals). Sending the docs registered mail and not media is suggested, but not required -- registered mail rarely costs more than $15 and media mail for the amount of stuff I've sent out to publishers costs less than $5.

Now, going with a real publishing house can also be more cost-effective in the long run, because they distribute, promote, advertise, and basically sell the book for you. Basically, even mailing a proposal to every Pagan publishing house in North America will wind up making back all that money spent if the book was deemed good enough to publish. Obviously, there's a market for this stuff, so there's no reason that there wouldn't be at least one reputable house interested.



Those of you claiming to be Hellenes should be ashamed of yourselves.

Does that count for everybody who ever disagreed with Plato, Atistotle, Socrates, Eurypides, Plutarch, Hesiod, Xenophantes, Homer, Herodotus, and... I could go on?

Being Hellenistai doesn't necessarily mean keeping one's mouth shut over a dispute -- and historically, it never did. I have a case of books just packed with primary sources and secondary ones as well that effectively state as much.



What behavior? He hasn't even posted here in months...And how does that apply to Historical accuracy on a post that he didn't make?

Uh... Points other than that one were addressed and asked about.



If anyone truly cares to know their stance, instead of making an uneducated opinion based on one post, you can easily join...they have an English Speaking Forum. Or, you could simply go to their FAQ page. There you will get the facts.

An English-speaking forum that apparently very few people are allowed to be a part of (I've attempted to join at least a *dozen* times over the last year, all to no avail) and where, the last several times I've perused what's public, seems to be all about you and Tim spreading dirt about Sannion and Sarah Winter. I'm not the fondest of either Sannion or Sarah Winter, but you know what? The fact that such seemed to be all that the English-language YSEE board was about on at least four of the times I've perused those boards says a LOT more about Tim, yourself, and YSEE than it does about Sannion and Sarah Winter -- for starters, it sys you're really petty.



In regard to Timothy Alexander, I know him. The rest of you think you do. He is open to honest conversation, he can and will back up what he says. He is abrasive, he is to the point, he pulls no punches. Some people respect that...others think he's an asshole.

Uh, yeah, whatever. I've got about a dozen liks from the m-n-m forum and elsewhere (including MySpace) where he's very obviously praised Sannion -- praise which seemed to suddenly end around the time of some petty disagreement in a third person's LJ. I think that evidence alone speaks for itself.



That's fine, think what you want.

And I'm sure that you'll do the same.



You may not like his books. You don't have to. There is one written by Sarah Kate Istra Winter that I personally think is horrendous...and I suppose I was being polite by not saying so earlier. Bad Twinkle. Won't do that again.

...and yet Amazon dares to suggest that it be purchased with Tim's.... Gee, I wonder how that happened.



There are plenty of other places for you to go...and I'm sure most of you are already there....eagerly typing away about what a big asshole he is. Guess what? He doesn't care.

Actually, a lot of people are now eagerly typing away about what an ass-hole I apparently am. And my friends seem to be under the impression that I'm a big boy who can speak for himself, if so desired.



It's what he does to protect the integrity of Hellenismos,....

Hellenismos has plenty enough integrity on its own, thanks.



.... to educate, and dispense accurate information, and he is not alone in doing it. If you'd like to debate him, feel free to do so. It makes me smile to see you all scatter here to post your criticisms...a board he doesn't even come to with any amount of frequency. Scared much?

No. I'd be "scared" if I still had any respect for him. And if that was the case, I sure as hell wouldn't be saying it publicly. I for one just see no point in going to a forum where dissent can be easily silenced just because the moderator and his Lollipop Guild are suffering from a bad case of Big Dog and Me-Too (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/bigdogmetoo.htm) -- there's no huging point, and I've simply been on-line long enough to know and understand that. "Scared"? Oh, haha, oh hahahaha!

Let me draw an analogy (cos I like doing that):

Alice (A) and Beatrice (B) are siblings. A tries to explain something to B. A tries many times to explain things to B, but B just won't listen and always ends up clasping her hands over her ears, and then stomping out the room shouting "LALALALA!!! I'M NOT LIST-EN-ING!!!! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! LALALALA!!!!" A eventually gives up trying to even talk to B, but simply can't help any chance she gets to go on to others about how pig-headed B can be.



Discredit YSEE if you like, but the fact remains that they are the largest Hellenic Recon organization out there with real numbers, doing real things for their religion, putting out videos and information on their ethnic religion, and expanding into the United States. They are now in New York, in addition to Canada and Australia.

And that's wonderful, but I still think that wildly inflating one's "real numbers" with every press release would be morally dubious if it wasn't so unbelievable.

[Phoenix Blue]

If the majority of your problem with Tim's books is that they were poorly edited, then lessoned learned. Professional editing can't be beat. Are ya happy?
From the sound of things, it's more than just lack of professional editing. It's lack of basic fact-checking.


In regard to Timothy Alexander, I know him. The rest of you think you do. He is open to honest conversation, he can and will back up what he says. He is abrasive, he is to the point, he pulls no punches. Some people respect that...others think he's an asshole.

That's fine, think what you want.
If you really wanted people to "think what (they) want," why are you here to defend him? And did it occur that you're making more of an issue about him than he would actually be if you'd left well enough alone?

[patch]

The Gods of Reason? Anyone read it? Patch? You did...and you liked it. Funny how you didn't speak up here in your defense of it.


I'm not getting involved in the argument, thanks.

I posted my opinion of YSEE and left.

[Twinkle]

Couple of things:

1. You've never defended a friend, PhoenixBlue? I've seen you defend Mol more than once. Did it make more of an issue? Maybe. Was it the honorable thing to do? You betcha.

2. If Tim is so insignificant, such an ass, so....*incorrect*....then why did the people here make such an issue of him? Wouldn't it have been better if *they* just left it alone? Two pages worth of how insignificant he is, and YSEE. We have pretty much decided that it wasn't worth fighting about and have been largely silent. What you're seeing now is people getting pissy because he wouldn't (couldn't, in good conscience) endorse a book on his website.

3. Tim has put people in the ground over this whole "fact checking" thing, Phoenix Blue. At first the accusation was that 90% of the material was taken from another book....Winter's book. When that didn't work, they decided to say it wasn't factual. When they found they couldn't actually prove that assertion, it became about the book being poorly edited. Now it's about how Tim runs his board.


What this really is about is people not liking what he says, how he says it, and the fact that he can actually back it up with facts.

This thing has been going on for years...and if you want to see some of the absolute filth about him being written, you'll see why I'm so quick to defend. Young Soul Rebel knows exactly what I'm talking about.

YSR....I've never said one nasty thing about Winter. I've never attacked her personally, nothing. What I have said is that she is not practicing Hellenic Polytheism. Ooh! The Dirt!! In fact, she herself said that when she stepped down from leadership of Neokoroi....she no longer was a "mainstream" Hellenic Polytheist and wanted to be able to devote more time to her "Spirit Work".

But Sannion has been the pillar of civility? Please. Do you really want to go there with me? And besides, Sannion isn't even a Hellenic Recon. He runs an interfaith group and embraces neopagan concepts on his NeosAlexandria website. We don't need to talk about him....he is no longer relevant.

[YoungSoulRebel]

What you're seeing now is people getting pissy because he wouldn't (couldn't, in good conscience) endorse a book on his website.

I really couldn't care less about whether or not he endorses KHARIS. Sarah's not one of my on-line buddies.



3. Tim has put people in the ground over this whole "fact checking" thing, Phoenix Blue. At first the accusation was that 90% of the material was taken from another book....Winter's book. When that didn't work, they decided to say it wasn't factual. When they found they couldn't actually prove that assertion, it became about the book being poorly edited. Now it's about how Tim runs his board.

No.... It's about all of the above.



What this really is about is people not liking what he says, how he says it, and the fact that he can actually back it up with facts.

I've never seen him back up anything with facts. I've seen him defend himself by making sweeping generalisations that he attempts to masquerade as "fact", though.



This thing has been going on for years...and if you want to see some of the absolute filth about him being written, you'll see why I'm so quick to defend. Young Soul Rebel knows exactly what I'm talking about.

I do?



YSR....I've never said one nasty thing about Winter. I've never attacked her personally, nothing. What I have said is that she is not practicing Hellenic Polytheism. Ooh! The Dirt!! In fact, she herself said that when she stepped down from leadership of Neokoroi....she no longer was a "mainstream" Hellenic Polytheist and wanted to be able to devote more time to her "Spirit Work".

Actually, she said she no longer identified as "Hellenic recon" and that the deities she worshipped were no longer wholly Hellenic -- that's a big difference from saying one is no longer and Hellenic polytheist. I can get you that LiveJournal entry. Hell, depending on whether one considers Adonis an Hellenic or Phonecian deitiy, even *my* practise may not be considered "wholly Hellenic" -- it still wouldn't be accurate to say that my Adonis worship means I'm not an Hellenic polytheist, and it would be doubly inaccurate to say that such implies that I "no longer identify as an Hellenic polytheist", cos it doesn't. I don't know all of what Sarah practises or believes in, but if her primary cultus is to Hellenic deities and the nymphai, and she still calls herself an Hellenic polytheist (albeit with the addendum that her practise includes non-Hellenic deities and spirits, as well), then I'd say that's acceptable. There is plenty of historical evidence that many people honoured in foreign cultus -- but then again, that seemed to be most popular during the Hellenistic and Roman eras, so maybe by Tim's definition, being "post-Classical Athens", that's "not really pure Hellenismos", anyway, so of course you'll disagree and we'll just be argueing in circles. Heavens forbid the ancients practised anything slightly differently after 500BCE -- didn't their oracles tell them that it wouldn't be considered "real Hellenismos" by some poor guy with an axe to grind on the Interwebz 2,500 years later?



But Sannion has been the pillar of civility? Please. Do you really want to go there with me? And besides, Sannion isn't even a Hellenic Recon. He runs an interfaith group and embraces neopagan concepts on his NeosAlexandria website. We don't need to talk about him....he is no longer relevant.

He was still relavent enough to be a hot topic on the YSEE public fora in June of '08, I know that for a fact. Well, maybe not a hot topic, but looking through the archives, it's really hard to find a thread from June or earlier where you guys just can't help but get some digs in -- even in threads where it's not really relavent. That's pettiness. I don't care what Sannion does, what he calls himself, whatever. He's not the one being so beligerrant that people who used to be a-OK with him (oh, like how I used to be fine with Timmy) just can't be anymore. I'm not the one with people still e-mailing him about how being so patient with Sannion on Hellenic_Recons made me a "saint" -- no, I think people are doing that cos of how I had to keep clarifying things to Tim, over and over again, until it got to the point where it was very clear that he didn't want me or anybody else "on his side" unless they were willing to agree with him 100% -- and I don't even agree with my best friends 100%, about everything. Of course, if you ask me, Robert Clark is the one deserving of that praise over how he dealt with Tim (and he does get it, he's just not on here, nor as loud as I am).

Yeah, I know, you "don't agree with Tim 100%" and you and he "disagree all the time" -- unfortunately, it must all be on IM or phone or "irl" convo, cos the only thing that google is coming up with is a long line is threads and such where you say X, then Tim says "no, it's Y" and then you suddenly see everything his way, no arguments. That's not a disagreement -- that's being a yes-man.

[Phoenix Blue]

2. If Tim is so insignificant, such an ass, so....*incorrect*....then why did the people here make such an issue of him? Wouldn't it have been better if *they* just left it alone? Two pages worth of how insignificant he is, and YSEE. We have pretty much decided that it wasn't worth fighting about and have been largely silent. What you're seeing now is people getting pissy because he wouldn't (couldn't, in good conscience) endorse a book on his website.
I've read through this thread, and until you brought this up, I saw all of one comment from someone that could be in any way considered derogatory toward Tim. If people are asserting that he plagiarized, then they need to prove that -- but it's not, in and of itself, derogatory. If people are asserting that the book's not fact, that's easy to handle, too: check his sources and determine whether he's done his homework. So again, in and of itself, not derogatory.

As to how Tim conducts his board, *shrugs* that's his business, I s'pose. If someone else doesn't like it, my advice to them would be to start their own.


This thing has been going on for years...and if you want to see some of the absolute filth about him being written, you'll see why I'm so quick to defend. Young Soul Rebel knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Heh. I've seen some of the filth that people have written about me, and that's gone on for years, too. So what? Let people be haters.

[Halstrom]

ϒΠΑΤΟ ΣϒΜΒΟϒΙΟ ΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ ΕΘΝΙΚΩΝ, can be translated as The Supreme Council of Greek Nationals. In the name the word ΕΘΝΙΚΩΝ can be directly translated as meaning: National.

[YoungSoulRebel]

ϒΠΑΤΟ ΣϒΜΒΟϒΙΟ ΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ ΕΘΝΙΚΩΝ, can be translated as The Supreme Council of Greek Nationals. In the name the word ΕΘΝΙΚΩΝ can be directly translated as meaning: National.

Are you trying to imply that's not problematic? If you are, then you fail.

Being a "National of [region]" means something very broad in the modern socio-political climate. It typically means that one was either born in said region, obtained citizenship of said region or possibly that one's parents were immigrants from said region and one so one identifies more strongly with being of that culture (typically this is seen more in the $tates, but I've seen similar with UK people). And since Tim is one of YSEE's big-time brown nosers, doesn't that contradict his insistence in the introduction of Hellenismos Today that he is very proudly Amerikan and chooses not to identify culturally as Greek based on his region of origin?

If that's what he wants to do, then fine, but he should at least acknowledge that a) it contradicts the definitions of a group he very actively supports and b) if he's changed his mind about the nation-of-identity, then he should make that very clear, or, by the same standards he holds others to, he's dishonest.

[Halstrom]

Are you trying to imply that's not problematic? If you are, then you fail.

No, someone made the claim that the YSEE is using gentile in their name. I was simply giving the proper translation of the word Ethnikoi.


Being a "National of [region]" means something very broad in the modern socio-political climate. It typically means that one was either born in said region, obtained citizenship of said region or possibly that one's parents were immigrants from said region and one so one identifies more strongly with being of that culture (typically this is seen more in the $tates(sic), but I've seen similar with UK people). And since Tim is one of YSEE's big-time brown nosers, doesn't that contradict his insistence in the introduction of Hellenismos Today that he is very proudly Amerikan(sic) and chooses not to identify culturally as Greek based on his region of origin?

If that's what he wants to do, then fine, but he should at least acknowledge that a) it contradicts the definitions of a group he very actively supports and b) if he's changed his mind about the nation-of-identity, then he should make that very clear, or, by the same standards he holds others to, he's dishonest.

On page 10 in Hellenismos Today, Tim says

Learning the ancient Greek language is very important to many practitioners of Hellenismos. It's not to me, and as you read through this book I have limited my use of Greek words to the bare essentials. I thoroughly understand many of the reasons my colleagues give for finding it an essential part of their practice. I accept completely that it is a devotional act that has great meaning to them. As I studied the ancient Greek religion there is one glaring fact that jumped out at me, and that is all religion is local. I am an American, living in Pennsylvania, and I speak English. Its not that I don't see value in it for those that do it, it just doesn't hold the same value for me.

He mentions being American, but where does insist that he is not Greek? Can you show me where he says this 'cause I'm not seeing it, here.

[Twinkle]

This is the typical behavior of those who have been exposed for being charlatans, players, and pretenders. It is only the making of vague accusations and harsh personal attacks in an attempt to blackball and disenfranchise Tim and the YSEE because they know their shortcomings. It is the very definition of hubris.

[Son of Goddess]

Seriously...if everyone takes up so much issue with various things in Tim Alexander's writings...why not put up then?

Some of you make vague remarks about how this or that isn't factual or its plagiarized or what have you, but lets see some fact behind those claims. Bring in the quotes and sources, if his books are going to be ripped apart, at least be able to prove your point of view. That's like basic Reconstructionism 101...

[YoungSoulRebel]

He mentions being American, but where does insist that he is not Greek? Can you show me where he says this 'cause I'm not seeing it, here.

Oh, for the love of all that is sacred, that makes no cotton-pickin' sense.

Why would somebody who supposedly identifies with a culture *not* want to at least have basic familiarity with the most easily-identifiable tenants of a culture, including language? An ambivalence toward a language is an ambivalence to the culture(s) said language is identified with; while some cultures share similar languages, the old adage that what separates Amerikans from the British is a language barrier alone speaks volumes of how U$ English is easily identifiable from UK English.



Seriously...if everyone takes up so much issue with various things in Tim Alexander's writings...why not put up then?

Some of you make vague remarks about how this or that isn't factual or its plagiarized or what have you, but lets see some fact behind those claims. Bring in the quotes and sources, if his books are going to be ripped apart, at least be able to prove your point of view. That's like basic Reconstructionism 101...

OK, I want to make it quite clear that there is a big ding-dang difference between plagiarism and (presumably) public domain filler that constitutes 1/2 to 2/3 of a book's content. Just peruse the Table of contents for his books on Google and you'll see that a substantial portion of his books are Appendixes of primary sources (and hopefully, for his sake, the translations he used are either public domain or at least used with permission). Christos bastardo, if you don't understand the difference between plagiarism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=plagiarism) and filler (media & entertainment, bullet #5) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler) by now, then perhaps these links could help you.

Regardless, you gotta admit that filling space with Plato and Hesiod is hardly providing original content -- it's not "plagiarism" in any sense, but it's not original content, either, now is it?

[Son of Goddess]

I do know the difference between 'plagiarism' and 'filler', thank you very much.

Primary sources are a must when it comes to Reconstructionism, providing those to the Recon-newbie is like getting a well needed gift. It allows the reader to get a sense of what Reconstructionism is about, and more essentially it gives the reader an idea of what ancient Hellenic religion was about and how said ancient writer thought and believed in regards to it.

I've seen too many Pop-Pagan 101 how-to guides that give the reader everything but a brain to practice. I really think that is detrimental to various Pagan religions, as it gives the reader the idea that they have and know everything they will ever need to know. Tim Alexander's books don't give you ritual after ritual after ritual giving you direct line by line, action by action instructions on what to do. It allows the reader to learn, to explore more and actually forces them to dig deeper, which is a good thing.

[David19]

Because going with a professional publisher requires a lot of money, and with a book on a subject that isn't guarenteed to reach a large number of people, it would be cost prohibitive to go with professional publishers. At least that is my understanding.

Really?, I didn't actually know you needed to pay a publisher to have books published, I thought, if you found a publisher, they liked your work, saw the potential in it, etc, they'd take it on.

[David19]

Well, they're "purifying" the term by paltry attempts at making it "exclusive" to Greek polytheists! :eyeroll Basically, I agree -- their logic simply does not compute. English is a *living* language -- that means the meanings of words become altered over time and while "reclaiming" words (such as feminists reclaiming "b i t c h" and "c u n t" -- check out the magazine and the book of named such, respectively) can be a noble thing, in some cases, it can be very confusing and problematic. This is one of those times when I think that "gentile" can come off as either over-intellectualising things (something Tim Alexander likes to chastise certain other people for, but apparently has no problem doing, himself, or allowing for others to do) *or* possibly as, well, anti-Semetic. In English, "gentile" and "ethnic" have very specific usage and connotation, and trying to subvert those definitions can still rub people the wrong way.

I have no problem with reclaiming words, like what some feminists do with the word "bitch", or that some gay people do with "fag", etc, it's just the people who do that are people the word is traditionally applied too, YSEE, as far as I'm aware, are not from a Jewish background, so, I'm just not sure why they want to use a specific word that means non-Jewish, especially in the modern world, where referring to yourself as "gentiles" is likely to make people think you're anti-Semitic, or have a problem with Jews (although, judging by some of the comments from members, some of them seem do seem to have a problem, by their bodering-on-racist comments referring to the Christians as "shepherds", etc). I'm just not sure why, in the post-Holocaust world, they would want to do that.





Well... At least as it is now, Xlibris Books, the publisher for Old Stones, New Temples, is currently another print-on-demand service, like Lulu.com or CreateSpace (the service Sarah Winter, author of KHARIS: Hellenic Polytheism Explored uses). I don't know if it was at the time it was published, but it was really well-done, if it was print-on-demand.

It must have been well done, 'cause, I've always assumed 'Old Stones, New Temples' was published by a professional publisher.



Indeed! Obviously, you're our better. ;)

Clearly, I am ;)!.

[Halstrom]

Really?, I didn't actually know you needed to pay a publisher to have books published, I thought, if you found a publisher, they liked your work, saw the potential in it, etc, they'd take it on.

You should read this (http://www.sciencehumanitiespress.com/pubeco.htm)

[David19]

You should read this (http://www.sciencehumanitiespress.com/pubeco.htm)

Thanks for the link :).

[Kadynas]

If Tim is so insignificant, such an ass, so....*incorrect*....then why did the people here make such an issue of him?

Why does his name always come up in discussions such as this? Honestly? Because those of us who do not agree with him - and still ARE Hellenes, thank you very much - don't feel that he is "protecting the integrity of Hellenismos" one iota by arbitrarily deciding who or what is or is not a "real Hellene," "Hellenic" or even a "Hellenic Polytheist," usually on the basis of who agrees with him at that particular moment. *sigh* His more narrow definition of those terms is fine /for him/ if it floats his boat, but it is not the end-all, be-all of what these terms actually encompass, and outsiders have a right to know that. For as much as he says there is "no central authority" on Hellenismos, he certainly tries to portray himself as such (recent case in point: rewriting Wikipedia), and the rest of us have the same rights to express our opinions and make ourselves heard.

As for his books? I didn't start on that topic if you read back, but I actually did like them, editing errors aside. His books don't have the same "attitude" permeating them as his internet postings do.

I wasn't trying to start yet another war here... I was just providing an FYI, which was closely related to the topic of the thread: I was talking about the overall attitude of the site on which the post in question appeared. But I forgot... the owner of that site is the only one who gets to critique websites, books and/or groups and tell us all whether they're approved for Hellenic Polytheists or not. Sorry, my bad... :lol:

[Fiamma]

Why does his name always come up in discussions such as this? Honestly? Because those of us who do not agree with him - and still ARE Hellenes, thank you very much - don't feel that he is "protecting the integrity of Hellenismos" one iota by arbitrarily deciding who or what is or is not a "real Hellene," "Hellenic" or even a "Hellenic Polytheist," usually on the basis of who agrees with him at that particular moment.


Not to mention that Hellenismos (or any other religion you can think of) doesn't need its integrity protected. Its integrity remains. Even if someone claims to be practicing the religion, but is in fact doing something so far off that it doesn't even begin to resemble the original religion anymore, that original religion still exists. It's like taking a file of a photo, copying it and editing the photo so drastically that it's no longer the photo. The original remains intact, on another spot in the hard drive, the copied file has become something completely different.

[Halstrom]

(recent case in point: rewriting Wikipedia),

Do you have any actual proof that Tim was the one who making the changes or is this just another baseless accusation against him?

[Son of Goddess]

Because those of us who do not agree with him - and still ARE Hellenes, thank you very much - don't feel that he is "protecting the integrity of Hellenismos" one iota by arbitrarily deciding who or what is or is not a "real Hellene," "Hellenic" or even a "Hellenic Polytheist," usually on the basis of who agrees with him at that particular moment. *sigh* His more narrow definition of those terms is fine /for him/ if it floats his boat, but it is not the end-all, be-all of what these terms actually encompass, and outsiders have a right to know that.

More of an aside, perhaps even worthy of a new topic itself, I am wondering what what exactly the "popular" (read: according to everybody who doesn't agree with Tim) definitions are of "Hellenismos", "Hellenic Polytheism", "Hellenic Reconstructionism", and so on. I see this come up a lot in Hellenic discussions, and am just wondering...

...so glad the Religio Romana doesn't have these issues, LOL!

[Son of Goddess]

Nothing???

...wow, I guess that speaks volumes in itself doesn't it. :kooky:

[*~Amora~*]

More of an aside, perhaps even worthy of a new topic itself, I am wondering what what exactly the "popular" (read: according to everybody who doesn't agree with Tim) definitions are of "Hellenismos", "Hellenic Polytheism", "Hellenic Reconstructionism", and so on. I see this come up a lot in Hellenic discussions, and am just wondering...

...so glad the Religio Romana doesn't have these issues, LOL!

I think that deserves it's own thread.

[YoungSoulRebel]

For as much as he says there is "no central authority" on Hellenismos, he certainly tries to portray himself as such (recent case in point: rewriting Wikipedia), and the rest of us have the same rights to express our opinions and make ourselves heard.

Oh, I'm totally with you there -- LAFFO! I'm recently come to understand Hellenismos, and the definition of the religion if open, publicly-practised, unbroken traditions had survived since antiquity, as more like "Hinduism" than a certain contingent would like to think:

Basically, Hinduism is a sort of umbrella for many religions that have only a few things in common -- mainly just Deities and certain "basic" practises. This is as it's been explained to be my a good friend of mine who is a Shivite Hindu. Ergo, if the Hellenic religion survived openly and unbroken since antiquity, there would be at least a dozen or so sects or denominations within the umbrella as there are within the umbrella of Hinduism. No, Eclectic Wicca that incorporates Hindu deities isn't Hinduism, so therefore such that utilises Hellenic deities wouldn't be Hellenismos, but the odd thing about Hellenic traditions is that much of what has become colloquially known as "Eclectic Wicca" or "Folk magic" has either Hellenic folk ritual origins or rural-pan-European origins that are common all over Europe. While I agree with Tim that "there is that which is and that which is not Hellenismos", my definition of "what which is" is far broader because, well, I see the fact of the evolution of the religion from "Classical period Athens" to the Hellenistic era, and basic logic thus dictates that the religion in even ancient times bore evolutions, so evolutions should thus continue -- otherwise, it becomes stagnant and the religious and spiritual equivalent of Obsessive Compulsion ("I must do it this way, I must only do it this way", et ad nauseum, a'la Rainman).



I was talking about the overall attitude of the site on which the post in question appeared. But I forgot... the owner of that site is the only one who gets to critique websites, books and/or groups and tell us all whether they're approved for Hellenic Polytheists or not. Sorry, my bad... :lol:

LOL, indeed!

[YoungSoulRebel]

Not to mention that Hellenismos (or any other religion you can think of) doesn't need its integrity protected. Its integrity remains. Even if someone claims to be practicing the religion, but is in fact doing something so far off that it doesn't even begin to resemble the original religion anymore, that original religion still exists. It's like taking a file of a photo, copying it and editing the photo so drastically that it's no longer the photo. The original remains intact, on another spot in the hard drive, the copied file has become something completely different.

Quoted for truth. (I hate just doing that, but this is one of those things that needed to be said twice.)



Do you have any actual proof that Tim was the one who making the changes or is this just another baseless accusation against him?

Oh, you mean besides his IP number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_number)? What more "proof" does one really need?



Nothing???

...wow, I guess that speaks volumes in itself doesn't it. :kooky:

Yes. How dare anybody have a fecking life, eh? When will the whole of all Internet fora everywhere learn that there is nothing more important than the forum in question!? Ingrates, I say!

Go knit socks that smell.

[Son of Goddess]

Yes. How dare anybody have a fecking life, eh? When will the whole of all Internet fora everywhere learn that there is nothing more important than the forum in question!? Ingrates, I say!

Go knit socks that smell.

Well considering the amount of consistent action this thread was having, it would have seemed as if everybody just decided to pass on this one.

And knitting? Sorry, 'fraid not. You can have a throw at it though, I'm sure you do anyways. This fashion-friendly Pagan prefers high end shopping. :crown:

[Halstrom]

Oh, you mean besides his IP number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_number)? What more "proof" does one really need?

Can you prove that the IP address belongs to Tim? Cause unless you can concretely connect the IP address to Tim, then you don't have any proof.

[YoungSoulRebel]

Well considering the amount of consistent action this thread was having, it would have seemed as if everybody just decided to pass on this one.

That still doesn't make any sense. For starters, you posed your, uh, "question" on a weekday and followed up with your taunt on a weekday -- a mere two days later. Most people work on weekdays, and most people on fora spend a lot of their time on-line at work. If important work projects come up, that means that work is going to take precedent over the fora, plain and simple.

Again, go knit socks that smell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070047/movieconnections). :-D

[Twinkle]

What doesn't make any sense is that you decided to just whine and complain, YSR. Sorry, but that's how I see it based on your posting here on this thread. I know you well enough to know that this is not you all the time...but here, on this thread...it's an honest and accurate assessment.

There have been more than just you adding their two cents, and it is also interesting that ~Amora~, the claimed Hellenic Reconstructionist and the one who split this thread, has not provided her own definition or sources. Actually, no one has but me. The other replies to her post has just been peevish sniveling or complaining.

It seems to me that everyone had a lot to say until they were pushed to actually provide something concrete for us to look at. Then the thread went dead.

[*~Amora~*]

There have been more than just you adding their two cents, and it is also interesting that ~Amora~, the claimed Hellenic Reconstructionist and the one who split this thread, has not provided her own definition or sources. Actually, no one has but me. The other replies to her post has just been peevish sniveling or complaining.


Once I checked in again, the thread had already veered off topic to criticizing the posters. I'm not interested in taking sides in the midst of personal attacks. It's a waste of my time.

[~Elise~]

Get back ON TOPIC and quit sniping at each other.

one more personal attack and this thread WILL be closed.

You know the old saying, if you don't have anything nice to say...

Elise

[YoungSoulRebel]

Can you prove that the IP address belongs to Tim? Cause unless you can concretely connect the IP address to Tim, then you don't have any proof.

Yes, I can. See, that's what happens when one spends any amount of time on e-mail lists -- IP's get sent out, things like this can be very easily proved.

See, just saying "You can't prove it!" over and over again doesn't make it true. Truth is not made by repetition of statements; truth is made by observable facts. I've observed said IP# in various manners attributable to Timmy, having it appear "anonymously" on Wikipaedia will draw anybody with the knowledge of how IP's work to the logical conclusion that the editor in question is, in fact, Tim (or, at the very least, someone with near-constant access to the computer Tim's ISP has assigned to that IP and which Tim regularly-enough sends e-mails from, which is almost definitely Tim).



What doesn't make any sense is that you decided to just whine and complain, YSR. Sorry, but that's how I see it based on your posting here on this thread. I know you well enough to know that this is not you all the time...but here, on this thread...it's an honest and accurate assessment.

Lisa, disliking the answer given doesn't make it something it's not. Your appeal to ridicule (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html) does not negate my answer.

[Twinkle]

Appeal to ridicule? That makes me smile. Thanks, I needed that. :)

The thing of it is, you still have not given us some fact behind those claims, which seem to be nothing more than baseless venom and an attempt to be vindictive cause you just don't like Tim. Even IF he did edit the wikipedia article, which just you saying so doesn't make it so, what edits are you stating are erroneous? What did he write in that article, if he did write any of it, that is causing you to twitch?

Be specific, please.

So far no one has anything about the books, which was the first attack. Let's talk about the wikipedia article, since that's now been brought to the table. I don't even know if he edited it...but I did read it, and I'm not seeing the problem.

[Halstrom]

Twinkle, you have to go to the talk page to see what this crap is about. They're saying that it's Tim because the user with the IP address 151.201.147.161, doesn't agree that Kharis: Hellenic Polytheism Explored by Sarah Kate Winter and A Temple of Words: Essays culled from five years of "Sannion's Sanctuary" by H. Jeremiah Lewis are credible sources. And because the same user removed the template "Neopaganism2".

[Twinkle]

So ultimately, there is no issue with anything that Tim supposedly wrote for the article, it is only an issue that Tim may have been the one making the edits. There was nothing erroneous written, it is just hate and anger toward Tim.

Gotcha.

[~Elise~]

Can we PLEASE get this back on topic???

[Son of Goddess]

Seems on topic to me, the thread is about religious bigotry in the Hellenic Recon community.

People are making claims about individuals being Hellenic bigots and sources are being asked for.

...or you can split the thread altogether.

[YoungSoulRebel]

Once I checked in again, the thread had already veered off topic to criticizing the posters. I'm not interested in taking sides in the midst of personal attacks. It's a waste of my time.

That's what she and the group she's affiliated do. They throw around baseless accusations and allusions, personal attacks, ad hominems, other fallacious "logic" toward anybody else, but the second anybody dares to criticise them oh, well, how dare them!

And if you just don't feel like argueing with thm? Well, that's just as bad as disagreing with them. You're not the first person they've pulled this crap with, very far from it.

[Son of Goddess]

Throw around baseless accusations? Sorry but I've seen that all come from everyone here, particularly you YSR. Criticism is a good thing, but when its based off of personal feelings and nothing more its fruitless. Sources have been asked for and nothing has been brought forward except further accusations that have no solid base of truth to them, only more speculation.

So perhaps the question should be asked once more. People disagree with Tim's opinions, ideas, etc... about Hellenismos and what not. Can you properly cite and reference those things and then supply your opinion why with evidence that counters those aforementioned things?

[~Elise~]

That's what she and the group she's affiliated do. They throw around baseless accusations and allusions, personal attacks, ad hominems, other fallacious "logic" toward anybody else, but the second anybody dares to criticise them oh, well, how dare them!

And if you just don't feel like argueing with thm? Well, that's just as bad as disagreing with them. You're not the first person they've pulled this crap with, very far from it.


Congratulations...you managed to get the thread closed with this personal attack