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MacMorrighan
October 21st, 2008, 09:05 PM
Author’s Note: This review constitutes my own opinion based upon several years of research and study; so it goes without saying that your mileage may vary!

A Critique and Review of Werewolves, Witches, and Wandering Spirits: Traditional Belief & Folklore in Early-Modern Europe, ed. by Kathryne A. Edwards. Sixteenth-Century Essays & Studies, Vol. 62. [Truman State University Press, 2002].

Wade MacMorrighan © 2007-08

When I first became aware of this book, I grew increasingly concerned that it might bear an over-riding agenda, due to the glowing reviews bestowed upon it by numerous Catholic Journals excerpted upon the Truman State University web-site;[1] a fear that is well-founded when considering the fact that it has been proven that the Catholic Church has had a hand in editing the Encyclopedia Britannica (among other academic works of reference) in an effort to mitigate their culpability during the Inquisition and suppression of paganism, as well as redacting several further works that were thought to present a “counter-Christian” thesis. For more on this, please consult the following resources by an important early twentieth-century atheist scholar, Joseph McCabe: "Lies & Fallacies of the Encyclopedia Britannica: How Powerful and Shameless Clerical Forces Castrated a Famous Work of Reference";[2] “The Columbia Encyclopedia's Crimes Against the Truth: How a Popular Reference Work is being used as a Weapon Against Free Culture and Twisted to fit the Purposes of Lying Obscurantists";[3] and "Rome's Syllabus of Condemned Opinion: The Last Blast of the Catholic Church’s Medieval Trumpet”.[4]

Joseph McCabe found that the Catholic Church was actively lobbying for, and succeeding in changing encyclopedias to reduce or omit any information controversial to the Catholic Church [eg. Dying-and-Rising deities]; in some cases with out-and-out censorship or even deceptive material; though, in most cases they employed a specious "softening" approach. It is believed that these mendacious tactics are still quite extensive in many contemporary reference works, and that they are continuing to go on unchecked, and unwatched!

Thankfully, however, I can rest assured that my initial fears noted for this particular review were unwarranted. What follows constitutes an appraisal and examination of each subsequent chapter-length article:

"Introduction: Expanding the Analysis of Traditional Belief", by Prof. Kathryn A. Edwards.

What a brilliant Introduction! (If only certain en vogue scholars would write similar introductions, and place their academic methodological quantifications into a proper perspective for their impressionable readership.) While the Ed. maintains that this book strives to be a work of general Historical-Anthropology (representing only one discipline, such as the work by Prof. Lederer, within this collection), she acknowledges that many diverse disciplines were incorporated to give the reader a general feel for the diverse applications often applied in historical quantification (when compared with the contributions by both Robin Briggs and H. C. Erik Midelfort, noted below, for example); so one may judge the veracity of a thesis for himself or herself based upon an author’s own substantiated or corroborated argument (even if a lack thereof).

Be that as it may, she favors the burgeoning academic discipline (as applied to medieval witchcraft-studies) of Historical-Anthropology, and even rallies the following plea to General Historians writing and teaching on the subject: "...this collection aspires to motivate scholars and other readers to reexamine the categories through which early-modern beliefs and perspectives are commonly approached." Let's hope that such scholars adopting either a psycho-analytical model (in terms of pathology) or a more prosaic approach will take her words to heart! Further on, in her Introduction, Prof. Edwards continues as she briefly address the extensive other-world beliefs of the era with which this work is concerned, as well as a few of the prevailing contemporaneous academic beliefs about the subject in general.

"Dangerous Spirits: Shapeshifting, Apparitions, and Fantasy in Lorraine Witchcraft Trials", by Prof. Robin Briggs.[5]

Lorraine denotes a specific region of northeastern France whose capitols (modern and antiquated, respectively) are: Metz and Nancy. It embraces a total of 5 counties, which in itself, is a relatively small demographic for any singular study of a more broad socio-historical event that seeks to extrapolate a synthesis which Prof. Briggs attempts to yield. However, the author rather strangely seeks out differentiations between British and French witchcraft-beliefs when his working thesis is an examination of the popular "beliefs" (ie. psychosis, in this instance) of medieval Lorraine, France! Albeit, in this district, it is worth noting that there remained nearly 400 men and women who were tried as witches between 1580 and 1630 ce (a span of only 50 years).

But, the over-riding agenda of this respective contribution is evident by its secondary-title, whereby all seemingly “fantastical” beliefs that are recounted in trial testimony are relegated to the status of mere fantasies, or as being purely imaginary. As a result, he has adopted a psycho-analytical methodological application (as per some of his scholastic coevals: Norman Cohn[6] and H. C. Erik Midelfort) with which to dismiss popular or folk belief-systems as a figment of the medieval imagination. Moreover, in adopting such a staunch, pathological (indeed Freudian) lens through which to view the testimony at hand he has interpreted the evidence as emerging from sexual repression: that is, accounts of Flying Ointment allude to (he concludes) a desire for masturbatory release;[7] shape-shifting and Familiar-encounters (despite the identical characters of these ubiquitous folk-beliefs, also found in native Japanese witchcraft-beliefs, for example[8]) is interpreted as signifying the libido; and the evidence for animal-witches slipping through small openings (such as key holes or window-cracks) are unequivocally accepted as archetypal metaphors for sexual intercourse because the home, Briggs alleges, was identified with the human body—a claim that is blatantly unsubstantiated throughout the present contribution!

However, if one were to supplant his use of the terms "fantasy" and "imaginary" with "visionary-experience" one would glean the current popular-thesis being advocated by scholars and research-groups today.[9] Due to Prof. Brigg's preferred methodological-system, he is able to virtually eliminate the mere plausibility for pagan survivals, whether in folk-belief or folk-traditions, despite evidence to the contrary in the existence of relatively "pagan" (or non-Christian) folk-spells for healing, as well as common peasant belief-systems centered upon shape-shifting, folk-deities, and soul-journeys, etc. By sharp contrast the vast majority of scholars writing available works (translated into English) from Continental Europe have since proven the existence of many pagan-themes or strands extent within early-modern beliefs and practices.

Be that as it may, many Anglo-American scholars tend to posit that an entire region or culture was irrevocably Christian at the moment that the King or ruling élite had been “converted”.[10] It has been otherwise proven that this is a relatively untenable position—such a thesis presumes that the mind of medieval peasantry constitutes a sort of blank “slate-board” onto which the ruling élite and clerics could freely write.[11] However the outstanding work of Prof. Carlo Ginzburg[12] (among many other specialists) has proven that authentic non-Christian belief-systems and practices did survive throughout the early-modern period in spite of Christianity’s attempted hold on European and British consciousness.[13]

Similarly to Briggs and other prosaic researchers, Norman Cohn also makes a habit of dismissing perfectly acceptable, and entirely uncoerced testimony from a variety of women who maintained that they underwent a visionary-experience and transvexed to a Sabbat; Cohn rejects such testimony, labeling them as senile old women (as if he has an insight into their mental-status and age that we cannot)![14] Sadly, the discriminatory tactics employed by Prof. Norman Cohn (chiefly ageism, sexism and mendacity, which he has also levied against Dr. Margaret Murray) has been largely adopted by Anglo-American academe in particular, and has seemingly gone unchallenged;[15] be that as it may, the late Prof. Cohn has had his prosaic thesis roundly questioned by only one brave scholar of note (immediately discounting, of course, contemporary Pagan researchers, and other freelance-scholars): Prof. Carlo Ginzburg, who was also a target of Cohn's mendacity.[16]

As a result of this forthcoming research now vindicating Margaret Murray's sullied credibility (see the applicable footnotes below), the hypothesis posited by contemporary Anglo-American scholars (eg. Ronald Hutton, Chas Clifton, and J.B. Russell, et al) pertaining to direct diffusion as the impetus for contemporary Pagan Witchcraft through Murray becomes more and more untenable as evidence for the New Forest Coven that indoctrinated Gerald B. Gardner (albeit circumstantial) is made available.[17] Even though Prof. Briggs favors a rather problematic psycho-analytical approach that has had an enduring impact upon modern British and American academia, it should be remembered that is only one of many applications that scholars have employed, as will be seen by the next contribution.[18]

"Living With the Dead: Ghosts in Early-Modern Bavaria", by Prof. David Lederer.

This is by far my favorite article in the book (constituting the three most “juicy” contributions in this collection), as it exemplifies the discipline of Historical-Anthropology at its best! Many Professors and scholars have long-since believed that an Anthropological approach to the witch-hunts have been long overdue, such as one Dr. J. H. Raichyk. Be that as it may, it is a discipline that is often maligned as irrelevant (at best!) throughout those "hallowed halls" of academia, despite the countless scholars who have been performing research on the topic since the very late 1980s (though, one will most likely not have heard about any of this, I'm afraid, if the only works one is familiar with have been written by contemporary Anglo-American scholars writing and teaching on the subject, such as Prof. Ronald Hutton of Bristol University, Chas Clifton of the University of Colorado, and Prof. JB Russell of the University of California, to name but a few of the more popular and presently en vogue writers).

Rather, like most eminent European scholars, Prof. Lederer (who is Lecturer in History at the prestigious National University of Ireland) contends that there existed strong pagan-themes and traditions coursing throughout the medieval witch-trials and popular-beliefs and practices of the native villagers. Instead of castigating the accounts of popular-beliefs as mere superstitions or invented hallucinations (as Cohn and Briggs, et. al. have done) he more aptly defines them as visionary-experiences.

Moreover, he raises Professors Carlo Ginzburg, Claude Lecouteux and Éva Pócs to standards of acclaim that they have generally not known throughout either Britain or the United States! As a result, he (along with the Editor, Kathryn A. Edwards) synthesize their material (noting Ginzburg, in particular) and relates that they have "analyzed the circulation and production of traditional religion in early-modern Europe on an even broader communal scale, as a religion that reflects the continuation of pre-Christian, Indo-European shamanistic belief-systems and its principles."[19] Sadly, Claude Lecouteux (Prof. of medieval civilization and literature at the world-renowned academic institution: The Sorbonne [Paris, France]) laments that Carlo's material has not made the impact that it should have.[20] But, how could it when certain prominent scholars tend to disregard its importance? Even Ronald Hutton is glibly dismissive of this material; however I suspect that this probably results from a knee-jerk reaction on Hutton's behalf, because Ginzburg blatantly acknowledges the methodological flaws, and other problematic habitual behavior (such as relative quantification) employed by some of the most often referenced British Historians that have written on this subject.[21] Even Prof. Éva Pócs has found unequivocal evidence for shamanic antecedents at the heart of European medieval witchcraft-beliefs, such as "soul-trips" and "journeys"; shape-shifting; Familiar-encounters; Sabbats held atop an axis mundi (usually a hill or mountain deemed entrances to the Other World or Faery Land);[22] belief in mediators between the living and the dead (the usual role of the priest-shaman); and the concept of European fate-goddesses preserved as spectral witch-figures, amid other data.[23]

Prof. Lederer also shows how extensive Éva Pócs’ findings ultimately prove to be by noting the analogous evidence between German-speaking Bavaria (an area that constitutes southern Germany and the Swiss Alps) with Hungary, whose people stem from a branch of the Finno-Urgian shamanic descendents.[24] While in the course of her own research Prof. Pócs has also found how ultimately extensive this Germanic evidence is in accord with the Hungarian data she has disclosed; data that also bears clear Nordic parallels between seiðr (“shamanism”) and the “Saint Lucy’s stool”[25] phenomenon, a stool or platform where one would sit in order to identify witches through an act of divination—these constitute a form of ecstatic practice that yields direct Indo-European antecedents with a form of European and Mediterranean initiatory or visionary-techniques that are chiefly predominated by women (eg. the Oracle at Delphi, Greece, sat upon a tripod/stool in order to prophecy[26]). Indeed, this relative method may be cognate with an earlier Indo-European shamanic visionary-technique whereby the Shaman would sit upon a stool or tower in order to engage in a state of trance, or to enter into the Other World.[27] This ubiquitous Indo-European technique (cf. the “thinking stool” of Irish folk-tradition where one’s daughter might be placed to locate lost items) may also be found in northern pagan ecstatic cults where Oðinn was believed to sit upon his throne (Hliðskjálf) and supernaturally survey the world—a visionary-tool that has been connected with the seiðhjallr platform[28] employed by the seiðkona (“shamaness”) in order to prophecy.[29] While, the Nordic sibyl (a seer-Priestess) was believed to prophecy while sitting upon a raised seat or platform.[30] Moreover, much like the St. Lucy’s Stool, Oðinn is philologically identified with his own visionary-platform or throne.[31] Even Saxo Grammaticus, commenting upon Denmark during his own life-time [around 1200 CE, during the High Middle Ages], noted that pagans (who were still extent) wishing to know the future destiny of their children would regularly consult three Priestesses (each serving as an oracle to the local fate-goddesses, respectively) which were found sitting upon a stool or platform.[32]

However, Prof. Ronald Hutton balks at the usage of any scholastic research as counter-evidence to his own preferred thesis, unless he first pre-approves it (despite the fact that he usually does not bother to test the veracity of his own assumed polemic).[33] So, as a result, he is forced to publicly censure both Professors Éva Pócs and Carlo Ginzburg as "generalizing too much" and for using the understood nomenclature of "shamanistic" or "shamanic" as quantifiable-relative terms.[34] According to Hutton, any term with the root-word "shaman-" can only be applied to the indigenous religious practices of Siberia and the areas of the Arctic north, or the outlying regions of Asia.[35] Philologically speaking, this is correct, because “shaman” is derived from the Tungusic term šaman, a noun and verb meaning “one who knows”.[36] But, this remains a relatively superficial polemic worth quibbling about. Be that as it may, this represents his sole reason for discounting such formidable research by the brunt of European academia (which almost seems racist, considering the fact that British academia has apparently isolated itself from the larger academic world encompassing, among others, Europe, Asia, Africa, and even India).

Indeed, upon even a cursory reading of Pócs' work, it must be asked if Hutton has read her material properly, or if he was merely accepting what a colleague may have told him and passed it off as established fact (which he's previously done in a misleading foot-note contained within his book The Stations of the Sun [Oxford, 1996]); of course, it has also been brought to my attention that Prof. Hutton has frequently pronounced judgments upon research based upon what he thought it would show, without first reviewing the data for himself.[37] After all, Prof. Pócs can hardly be accused of misusing the term "shamanism", nor of "generalizing too much", when her book (Between the Living and the Dead [Central European University Press, 1999]) does not veer from the confines of eastern Europe (specifically Hungary) upon translating more than 2000 witch-trials into English (by far the largest study to-date) in order to reach her synthesis alongside an established research-group; while it is within her Introduction where she makes it unequivocally clear that the term "shamanism" bears both a strict (Siberian) denotation and a generally understood connotation. Perhaps her only potential shortcoming is in failing to note the extremist and skeptical backlash imposed by American and (in particular) British academia, as her fellow European academic coevals have also not (for the most part) taken this level of skepticism into account.

Considering the corpus of European data on this topic, and his own book Shamanism: Siberian Spirituality and the Western Imagination [Continuum International Publishing Group, 2001], one wonders how Prof. Hutton can remain so unyielding in his position. In his Shamanism he contends that one of the few popular shamanic-beliefs that he will allow for (as authentic) is the multiplicity of the soul.[38] This identical motif is also found within medieval witchcraft-beliefs, such as those encountered within the Germanic trials, as well as within the various medieval Sagas and other related literature preserving antiquated pagan belief-systems—this hypothesis has been proven by the research of the esteemed Prof. Claude Lecouteux.[39]

However, another facet of shamanism has often been over-looked: the shamanic crisis, where one undergoes either a near-death experience, or recovers from a long illness only to experience a shift in consciousness which is usually determinant of the Shaman’s vocation, allowing him or her to see spirits and traverse the axis mundi.[40] This experience was still extent in Britain as late as the early twelfth-century, for it was Saxo Grammaticus who noted in his The History of the Danes that one was regarded as most propitious in prophecy and of viewing spirits if one had undergone some long illness. Indeed, when we look at the medieval witch trials we note the theme of great illness preceding a visionary-encounter with great frequency. Two examples will serve to exemplify this thesis: In 1588 CE, during a strange fit of sickness, Alison Pearson was introduced to the faerie-folk by an Otherworldly “green man” (actually her dead cousin robed in the color of the fey), who requested that she be faithful to him; but, after her cousin vanishes from sight, he reappears with other men and women engaging in a Sabbat-experience of merry making, and persuades Alison to take part in their grand mirth. She also testified that the spectral countenance of her cousin taught her how to use herbal remedies to heal the sick before she was executed by order of the magistrates.[41] And, perhaps even more telling is the case of Scottish witch Isobel Haldane (from Perth), whom, in 1623 CE, testified that while she was sick in bed she was taken to a fairy hill where she learned how to heal the sick from the faeries or spirits which reside there.

So, it is apparent that Prof. Hutton’s present reservation and polemic to the contrary is currently in the process of collapse. However, one should bear in mind that European and Anglo-American academia is vastly different from a quantifiable vantage point. Consequently, Prof. Hutton sadly does not seem to fairly adjudicate his sources (for I note numerous discrepancies within his secondary-source citations that have essentially been ignored by him, and other data that directly counters his actual arguments when this omitted material is honestly taken into account), nor does he generally acknowledge the wider breadth of scholarship being performed on this subject throughout Continental Europe, thus misrepresenting history and the present nature of academia (which operates on a sliding scale) to his impressionable readership.[42]

"Reformed or Recycled? Possession and Exorcism in the Sacramental Life of Early-Modern France", by Prof. Sarah Ferber.

Describes, in detail, the folk-beliefs surrounding the Eucharist as an object not of reverence, but an innate charm of Ritual Magic; she also analyzes the ambiguous nature between the early-modern concept of death and possession throughout medieval France.

"Revisiting El Encubierto: Navigating Between Visions of Heaven and Hell on Earth", by Prof. Sara T. Nalle.

Here the author stresses the folkloric antecedents of this Spanish messianic leader—during early-modern Millennialism—as an aspect of his followers' own folkloric identities, but his own claims were quite modest by comparison.

"Worms and the Jews: Jews, Magic, and Community in Seventeenth-Century Worms", by Prof. Dean Phillip Bell.

Here the author argues that ritual magic was an important aspect of Jewish folk-life in medieval Worms [Germany], because it was a binomial differentiation between the Judaism and Christianity. As a result, Magic is thus conceptualized as a communal event, and ideally possessed of communal "values".

"Asmodea: A Nun-Witch in Eighteenth-Century Tuscany", by Prof. Anna Jacobson Schutte.

The fascinating story of a Nun who freely claimed that she was a witch!

"When Witches Became False: Séducteurs and Crédules Confront the Paris Police at the beginning of the Eighteenth-Century", by Prof. Ulrike Krample.

Here Prof. Krample notes the change of the “witch” from sorceriers to that of a seducteur, and the allegedly credulous people that were thought to be ensnared by the concept of wielding such "power". This, of course, was because—Krample argues—the "Initiate", if you will, now became part of a "gang", or a system of politically subversive social equality.

"God Killed Saul: Heinrich Bullringer and Jacob Ruef on the Power of the Devil", by Prof. Bruce Gordon.

An account of two German Ecclesiastes who believed that the Christian devil, during seventeenth-century Zurich might prove to be a better minister than they, and thus be a threat to their respective "flock".

"Such an Impure, Cruel, and Savage Beast... Images of the Werewolf in Demonological Works", by Prof. Nicole Jacques-Lefèvre.

Raises some important demonological (and even theological) questions regarding the role of the Devil in early-modern European ideology. For example, how can witches circumvent the will of God by using his "creation" to engage in acts of malifica—that is, the use of herbs and other "props" in spells, being that these herbs, etc. were the purported "creation" of the Christian creator-deity?

"Charcot, Freud, and the Demons", by Prof. H. C. Erik Midelfort.

Here the psychoanalytical method is again underscored, as the author attempts to codify early-modern witchcraft/village belief-systems with a contemporary analysis, rather than seeking out earlier beliefs as the logical root for their more plausible impetus. Midelfort also poses the question as to how witch-beliefs may have ultimately influenced the constructs and evolution of contemporary psychoanalytical methods.

END NOTES:

1 http://tsup.truman.edu/

2 http://www.reformation.org/lies-of-encyclopeida-britannica.html

3 http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/encyclopedia_crime.html

4 http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/condemned_opinions.html

5 Consult the fascinating website of Prof. Robin Briggs that attempts to document the witch-trials documents of Lorraine, France: http://www.history.ox.ac.uk/staff/robinbriggs/

6 Norman Cohn (author of the obsolete text, Europe’s Inner Demons) concludes that the documentation preserved by the Inquisitors retains nothing more than an elaborate fantasy or mass-hallucination, going so far as to dismiss with specious analyses the academic thesis that the records of the age preserve anything of pagan or shamanic antiquity, because what was recorded—according to Cohn—cannot be accepted as anything other than fictitious and delusional ramblings. Moreover, he was harsh with any scholar who found corroborative evidence that might counter his questionable polemic, at which point he would engage in an ad hominem attack, and other apparent Logical Fallacies—tactics that the vast majority of reputable scholars fervently disavow, going so far as to strongly urge Editors to cease publishing any material of an ad hominem (or alternatively fallacious) nature, etc. What I hope to present throughout this critique is just the sort of unequivocal substantiation that Cohn and his academic coevals would have preferred to dismiss out of hand, jealously guarding this data from their respective readership.

7 Of all these accounts this interpretation is the most improbable when one considers that Dr. Andre de Laguna—a Spanish physician from the sixteenth-century—found a jar of “Flying Ointment” that he employed on his own wife only to find that, after daubing the unguent on the woman, she immediately fell into a stupor where her dreams substantiated many of the non-diabolical accounts from the “witches’” confessions, or relative folk-religious experiences. While other pots containing a “Flying Ointment” have also been discovered scattered throughout the historical record, such as the ointment found amid the possessions of accused witch, Dame Alice Kyteler from Co. Kilkenny, Ireland, during the early fourteenth-century [Kuklin, Alexander (1999). How Do Witches Fly? A Practical Approach to Nocturnal Flights. AceN Press: pp. 8-9]. Moreover, the use of an “ointment” or a “potion” to “fly”—that is, engage in an “out of body experience”—is a ubiquitous shamanic motif extent the world over [Johnson, Kenneth (1996/1998). Witchcraft and the Shamanic Journey: Pagan Folkways from the Burning Times. Llewellyn: pp. 131]!

8 For more information on the wide-ranging evidence for this belief-system, please consult the excellent study by Prof. Carmen Blacker (then-Lecturer in Japanese Studies at Cambridge University): “Animal Witchcraft in Japan” in The Witch Figure [Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1973] ed. by Venetia Newall. Here Dr. Blacker is able to trace the existence of the Familiar in Japan prior to the year 1500 BCE through ancient Japanese I Ching documents, as well as through an indigenous form of shamanism known as Ku! While the classic study of Prof. William Howells has found an identical Familiar-motif within extent Siberian shamanism (like their medieval witch and Germanic pagan coevals) as an alter-Ego or doppelganger [see his chap.: “The Shaman: A Ritual Spiritualist” in The Heathens, reproduced in Lehmann, Arthur C., James Meyers and Pamela A. Moro (2005). Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion: An Anthropological Study of the Supernatural (6th Edn.). McGraw-Hill Higher Education: pp. 160-7; and Prof. Claude Lecouteux (2003). Witches, Werewolves, and Fairies: Shapeshifters & Astral-Doubles in the Middle Ages. Inner Traditions]. Among the ubiquitous motives found in association with the witch’s Familiar—or “spirit-helper”—throughout England, France, Hungary and Japan (to name but a few countries) are: anthropomorphic and theriomorphic characteristics; the housing of a Familiar in a vessel (usually a bowl, kettle, or cauldron); the capacity for a Familiar to perform its master’s or mistress’s bidding (often causing harm or illness, healing the sick, diving the future, and locating lost goods, etc.); visionary-journeys to meet one’s Familiar (usually at a Sabbat or Fairyland ); the belief that Familiars were often of a hereditary nature; and the feeding of one’s Familiar (bread, milk, or blood are common), though breast-feeding one’s Familiar (often through a superfluous nipple, or some other “mark”) came to be a popular myth modeled, primarily, after women’s anatomy due to their perceived diabolical condition as a vessel for “sin” within the early-modern ecclesiastical imagination [on this latter conclusion, please consult the work of Historian, Anne Llewellyn Barstow, [I]Witchcraze: A New History of the European Witch Hunts. HarperSanFrancisco: pp. 141], etc. Moreover, Familiars, in the guise of so-called “spirit-helpers” are frequently observed in northern mythology when in the company of an evident shamanic-figure [Jøn, Asbjørn. “Shamanism and the Image of the Teutonic Deity, Óðinn”, Folklore, vol. 10 (April, 1999). Institute of the Estonian Language. <http://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol10/teuton.htm> (Last Accessed: 7 August, 2008).]. But, shamanic Familiar-encounters throughout the mythology encompassing Continental Europe and the British Isles is also evident. This ubiquitous evidence can hardly be dismissed as coincidental or irrelevant!

9 On this current popular-thesis, consult: "Living with the Dead", in this collection; Between The Living and the Dead: A Perspective on Witches and Seers in the Early-Modern Age, by Prof. Éva Pócs [Central European University Press, 1999]; Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath [Penguin Books, 1992] and The Night Battles: Witchcraft and Agrarian Cults in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century [The John Hopkins University Press, 1983], both by Prof. Carlo Ginzburg; Witches, Werewolves, and Fairies: Shapeshifters & Astral-Doubles in the Middle Ages , by Prof. Claude Lecouteux; and [I]Cunning Folk and Familiar Encounters: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions in Early Modern British Witchcraft and Magic [Sussex Academic Press, 2006], by Dr. Emma Wilby (to name only five prominent authorities on early-modern witchcraft-studies).

10 Consult Prof. Ronald Hutton’s Witches, Druids, and King Arthur [Hambledon & London, 2003]: pp. 137 for this specious analysis.

11 For example, historians Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick (A History of Pagan Europe) show that the initial—and even the late—conversion of the European and British ruling élite was essentially of a political nature so that they could claim an alliance with Europe and the last vestiges of the powerful Roman Catholic Church. Moreover, even when the Christian conversion of the ruling élite was meaningfully adopted, it usually ended by new comers to the throne, and Paganism was joyfully reinstated over several centuries.

12 Prof. Briggs has dismissed the formidable work of eminent micro-Historian Prof. Carlo Ginzburg, marginalizing him relative to the bureaucratic notion of an alleged academic consensus, which charges that Ginzburg has "wildly overstated his position", as if brilliant, leading scholars must submit to the majority-rule of far more conservative and extremist colleagues [Robin Briggs, pers. comm.: 4 January, 2008].

13 For more on this consult Ginzburg’s, The Night Battles and Ecstasies. However, other scholars throughout Continental Europe have codified a similar argument to Ginzburg’s—taking it further—where numerous local sects have been located that were believed to: travel at night engaging in trance-fertility battles with witches or the dead, whom often represented the formers’ stand-ins (a ubiquitous leitmotiv found in Siberian shamanism and its adjacent or cognate religious systems throughout Europe and elsewhere [see: Asbjørn Jøn, Ibid.; and Howells, Ibid.]); trance-fertility battles that commence around the four Ember Days—days that are analogous in date to the so-called “Greater Sabbats” (or seasonal portals) of Dr. Margaret Murray’s schema; attending a Sabbat or banqueting with a Queen or goddess-figure; practicing magic (either removing or infrequently causing malificarum); existence of a “double” or alter-ego (usually appearing in an animal-guise, commonly known as a “Familiar” of “Power Animal”); trance or visionary-experiences are frequently reported; and most are thought to be born with an extra set of teeth, a sixth finger, perhaps a tail, or often a caul (a fetal membrane) that was believed to give them the ability to travel at night on soul-journeys, to shape-shift or to otherwise attain membership into these local ecstatic cults. Among those sects presently known to us that generally follow this ubiquitous pattern of behavior are: the Benandanti (Italy), Táltos (Hungary), Căluşari (Romania), Armiers (Pyrenees Mts. dominating northern Spain and southern France), Kresniki (Croatia and Slovenia), and the Burkudzäutä (Caucasus Mts., Iran), etc. These sects ultimately stem from an Indo-European expression of belief and ecstatic practice rooted in shamanism. In the case of the Căluşari, they are frequently noted for swearing an oath of secrecy and fealty to the cult; drawing a “magic circle” around a gathering of practitioners with a ritual-sword; out-of-body travel; oral teaching passed from the sect-leader on to new “Initiates”; members intercede between humans and faeries (ie. ancestral spirits, or clearly demoted folk-deities); ecstatic dancing; magical healing and fertility rites; and the ritual employment of herbs with magical properties. (This bears—in accordance with this author’s examination of the data—more than a striking resemblance to contemporary “Wica”!) The Căluşari also performed initiations in forests; but more importantly they literally invoked the Queen of the Faeries as their leader, who was usually named Arada or Irodada (the former being applied—at least phonetically—in a Gardnerian chant by Patricia Crowther, HPs.). This Romanian data, of course, may bear distinct parallels between this shamanic witch-cult and the traditional Italian witch-cult material subsequently disclosed by Charles Godfrey Leland in, Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches [1899]. But, it was Prof. Carlo Ginzburg who found relatively substantive evidence for the codification of the Kresniki, Táltos, and Burkudzäutä, with (indeed noting especial emphasis on) the Italian Benandanti and the Romanian Căluşari, etc. [Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches’ Sabbath, pp. 159 and 165-6; see, also, Barstowe’s monograph: Witchcraze, which greatly supports this data]. For more information on the medieval Căluşari sect please consult Dr. Gail Kligman’s important book, Calus, Symbolic Transformation in Romanian Religion [University of Chicago Press]. Due to the fact that contemporary [I]Căluş dancers engage in spring fertility dances and dress remarkably similar to British Morris dancers during their Mumming Plays, they are thought to be culturally cognate with their presumptive British coevals. While, an exhaustive study of the Hungarian Táltos may be found in Prof. Éva Pócs’ important (albeit seldom cited) study, Between the Living and the Dead [Central European University Press]. Furthermore, while werewolves were also an established Indo-European fertility-cult throughout medieval Europe, it was not uncommon for members of these former ecstatic sects to invoke or conjure the aid of a benevolent spectral werewolf-figure (the werewolf was regarded as beneficial, and with admiration, up until the middle of the fifteenth-century CE).

14 For an overview on the problematic approach and research levied by contemporaneous British academe regarding witchcraft-studies, please consult the following brilliant article, “Collars and Scholars”, available at: http://esoterica.bichaunt.org/

15 This approach has had an enduring impact upon such scholars as Ronald Hutton and his obsolete—indeed, obscurantist—vitriol, The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy [Blackwell, 1996] and The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft [Oxford University Press, 1999]. Moreover, he continues to yield his unequivocal support to Prof. Cohn as late as 2003 despite full knowledge of the overwhelming counter-evidence to his extremist and atypical positions (cf. footnote 16, immediately below). For this final reference consult Prof. Hutton’s: Witches, Druids, and King Arthur [Hambledon & London], pp. 274, and 346 n.15.

16 For further evidence detailing Cohn's heinously flawed polemic and unmitigated slander directed towards Dr. Margaret Murray’s work, please consult the following sources: “Collars and Scholars” (cf. footnote #14); Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture [Fag Rag Books, 1978], by Arthur Evans; Drawing Down the Moon [Penguin Books, 2006], by Margot Adler; Wicca: The Old Religion in a New Millennium [Element Books, 1996], by Vivienne Crowley and an article by investigative freelance-journalist, Janine Farrell-Robert in subsequent issues of The Cauldron [2002], "The Great Debate: Margaret Murray and the Distinguished Professor Hutton", available on-line at the following web-site: http://www.vaccines.plus.com/Murray%20and%20the%20Professor.html.

17 For this evidence, consult: Wiccan Roots [Capall Bann, 2000] and Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration [Capall Bann, 2003], both by Philipe Hesselton. I am also grateful to Donald H. Frew for bringing to my attention the fact that there is no evidence that Murray’s writings (as well as those of Charles Godfrey Leland and Robert Graves) played any substantive role in the documented and doctrinal origins for contemporary (Gardnerian) Pagan Witchcraft as is generally assumed by both contemporary Pagans and scholars (eg. JB Russell, A History Of Witchcraft [Thames & Hudson, 1980/2007] and Ronald Hutton, The Triumph of the Moon). For this citation, consult his important article: “Methodological Flaws in Recent Studies of Historical and Modern Witchcraft”, Enthologies, 1 [1998], pp. 33-65. Moreover, aside from Cohn’s mendacity, Frew has found substantive evidence for the sustained practice of misrepresenting Margaret Murray’s writings and thesis for the express purpose of attacking it without justification (a tactic known as a “straw man argument”), such as in Ronald Hutton’s The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, and Dr. Jacqueline Simpson’s article, “Margaret Murray: Who Believed Her, and Why?”, Folklore, 105 [1994], pp. 89-96 . To read a copy of Frew’s article, please consult my web-site, where I have reproduced it with Donald Frew’s permission, in an effort to make it more widely available to the Pagan community: (Not yet available--I'm still setting up my site!).

18 For more information on Briggs’ problematic research, and approach, please consult this contemporary review of his work by Harvard-educated freelance-scholar, Max Dashú: http://www.suppressedhistories.net/secrethistory/briggs.html

19 Anne Llewellyn Barstow has come to an [I]identical conclusion, when she writes of this unequivocally analogous data (identified in the above footnotes)—even encompassing locally extent shamanism from Slovenia and Estonia—that we are “at the edge of a vast stratum of folk religion [paganism], ancient and possibly Europe wide, that underlies the trials of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. They are only the signals to alert us to what has been going on for centuries” [pp. 88]. I take her final sentence as another plea for the more extremist fringe of academia to take this data more seriously than what they have, and to ensure that it achieves a much wider notice and acceptance than the seeming conspiracy of silence that has unfortunately tendered it disposable by blatantly ignoring this wider-breadth of European academia, to the detriment of the discipline of History.

20 For this citation, please consult Prof. Lecauteux’s Witches, Werewolves, and Fairies: Shapeshifters & Astral-Doubles in the Middle Age.

21 Consult Ginzburg’s Ecstasies: Decipering the Witches’ Sabbath for this citation.

22 On the mountain as axis mundi (or “world pivot”) consult Dr. Carmen Blacker’s article, “Two Kinds of Japanese Shamans: The Medium and the Ascetic” [1975] in Shamans Through Time: 500 Years on the Path to Knowledge, ed. by Jeremy Narby and Francis Huxley. Jeremy P. Tarcher/Penguin: pp. 207-11. Of course, one is also reminded of the ancient Greek (Indo-European, as well as ubiquitous) tripartite cosmology that acknowledged not only an Underworld (Hades) and a material plain (or “Middle Earth”), but also an “Upper World” situated atop Mt. Olympus inhabited by the gods. While the Mayans of Mesoamerica sustained an identical cosmological belief-system where caverns were deemed entrances to the Underworld, with mountains representing the “Upper World” (a fact edified by numerous pyramid-like Temples that were believed to intimate the surrounding mountains). For further evidence on this ubiquitous shamanic-theme consult Prof. David Lewis-Williams’ and Dr. David Pearce’s brilliant work, Inside the Neolithic Mind: Consciousness, Cosmos and the Realm of the Gods [Thames and Hudson, 2005]. On witches gathering atop mountains to attend the Sabbat, consult German anthropologist Wolf-Dieter Storl’s contribution, “The Witch As Shaman” [1998] in Witchcraft Medicine: Healing Arts, Shamanic Practices, and Forbidden Plants [trans. Annabel Lee, 2003], by Claudia Müller-Ebeling, Christian Rätsch, and Wolf-Dieter Storl. Inner Traditions: pp. 40-58. It is also germane to the discussion that one must recall the common European folk-belief denoting a hill as an entrance to the Other World—usually to some “Fairy Land”—where witches were believed to gather at each Sabbat; and many pagan deities are known to have been demoted as Faeries, and residing in hills, such as the Tuatha de Dannan of Ireland.

23 For more on this incontrovertible data please consult her highly acclaimed academic work, Between the Living and the Dead: A Perspective on Witches and Seers in the Early-Modern Age [Central European University Press, 1999].

24 Evidence has also been found which seems to support an Indo-European codification between Germanic, as well as Finno-Baltic shamanic expression of belief and practice [see: Asbjørn Jøn, 1999].

25 Consult: Pócs [1999]; cf. “Természetfeletti Képességű Emberk—Tudósok És Közvetítők”. Folklór, 3. Magyar Néprajz VII. http://vmek.niif.hu/02100/02152/html/07/397.html [Last Accessed: 24 January, 2008]. Trans. by the present author: Wade MacMorrighan.

26 Consult: Broad, William J. [2006]. The Oracle: The Lost Secrets and Hidden Message of Ancient Delphi. The Penguin Press: pp. 36.

27 Simek, Rudolf [trans. Angela Hall, 1984/1993]. Dictionary of Northern Mythology. Boydell & Brewer: pp. 281. Accounts of authentic shamans surmounting a respective “stool” may be found in Siberia where the shaman is suspended from a tree trunk while journeying to the Other World (sometimes this is for the practical desire to protect the Shaman while he or she is engaged in a trance, and not in control of their normal faculties), and the Machi shamaness of Chile who surmounts a tree trunk in order to prophecy [Diana Paxson, pers. comm.: 12 March, 2008]. This, of course, recalls the Greek practice at Delphi where the Oracle’s tripod would be situated atop a pillar that had been erected to the height of forty feet, or twelve meters [William Broad, The Oracle: pp. 62].

28 An important fixture in early Nordic divination; the term is generally translated as “shaman’s stool” [Dictionary of Northern Mythology, pp. 279].

29 Op. cit., pp. 152.

30 Jones, Prudence and Nigel Pennick [1995/1999]. A History of Pagan Europe. Barnes & Noble: pp. 151.

31 Dictionary of Northern Mythology, pp 152.

32 A History of Pagan Europe, pp: 150.

33 On this pedantry, see how he downplays the importance of Ginzburg’s material (as if Ginzburg’s material cannot stand on its own merit!), even going so far as to blatantly re-define what can and cannot constitute a “trance” or ecstatic-visionary experience, by labeling Italian Medieval accounts of individuals falling into a trance as “unusually intense dreams” when their witnesses frequently distinguished that they were not, in fact, merely dreaming or sleeping when they suddenly became “lethargic” and were unable to be roused into waking consciousness; however, Prof. Hutton does not usually bother to argue for his own specific counter-position upon rejecting a given thesis as, perhaps, unconvincing—a tactic that is known as “special pleading” throughout this ad hominem article he wrote castigating Don Frew’s own academic counter-point, in “Paganism and Polemic: The Debate Over the Origins of Modern Pagan Witchcraft” in Folklore [April, 2000]: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_1_111/ai_62685559 [Last Accessed: 5 December, 2007]. Frew was not extended the courtesy of a response. Upon examining both articles in question, Prof. Hutton was hardly arguing on the same grounds as Mr. Frew!

34 Consult Farrell-Roberts' discourse with Hutton for this citation.

35 However, it is evident within Prof. Hutton’s book The Shamans of Siberia that, despite his pretence to the contrary, he allows for a far more liberal definition of “shaman”; rather, this polemic remains only his [I]personal preference [Daniel Cohen (1996). “Review: The Shamans of Siberia, by Ronald Hutton and The Shaman, by Piers Vitebsky” in Wood and Water, Autumn 1996, no. 56. Available on-line, at: http://www.decohen.com/reviews/shamans_of_siberia.htm <Last Accessed: 2 June, 2008>]. Indeed, both Daniel Cohen and myself, yield to the same trepidation whereby Ronald Hutton’s extremist and atypical connotation may be adopted as the only viable definition by contemporaneous Pagans [Ibid.].

36 Eliade, Mircea [trans. Willard R. Trask, 1964]. Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. Bollingen Series LXXVI. Princeton Univesity Press: pp. 4, and 495; Reid, Anna [2002]. The Shaman’s Coat: A Native History of Siberia. Walker & Company: pp. 5.

37 Donald H. Frew, pers. comm.: 29 February, 2008.

38 For a review of R. Hutton’s Shamanism, consult: “Hutton on Shamanism” [2006], by John C. Durham, http://bytrentplus.co.uk/hutton00.html [Last Accessed: 21 April, 2007]; and Timothy White’s critique, “Recapitulating Siberian Shamanisms: A Review of Ronald Hutton's Shamanism” in Shaman’s Drum, No. 75 [2007]. Throughout this present text Hutton apparently attempts to debunk the late Prof. Mercea Eliadé’s notion of the Shaman (here, he employs Sir James Frazer as his usual “whipping boy” when chastising a contemporary scholar for what he perceives as flawed methodology drawn from comparative methods). However, a valuable rebuttal is to be found in Bryan S. Rennie’s Reconstructing Eliade: Making Sense of Religion [State University of New York Press, 1996]. Moreover, Timothy White has found that Hutton habitually castigates other authorities (with whom Prof. Hutton is in personal disagreement) for certain “transgressions” of which he [Hutton] is also guilty within the same polemical treatise [pers. comm.]. Indeed, I have noted, with astonishing frequency, identical behavior throughout his relatively premature and obsolete study, The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles. This practice is a known Logical Fallacy (of which Prof. Hutton is evidently aware), which bears the name: Special Pleading. In so doing, we find that when one tenders an argument, he or she does not apply their principles consistently (frequently exempting himself or herself from having to follow the “rules” that they have imposed onto others). On “Special Pleading”, and other Logical Fallacies of note, navigate to the following website, which constitutes a professionally peer-reviewed academic resource, thanks to the outstanding work of Dr. J. Fieser and Dr. B. Dowden: “Fallacies: The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy”. http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm <Last Accessed: 8 August, 2008>.

39 Consult Prof. Lecouteux’s aforementioned book.

40 Eliade, Mircea [1964/1992]. Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. Bollingen Series LXXVI. Priceton University Press: pp. 25; 33-5; 38-43.

41 The Internet Sacred Text Archive. “Letters on Demonology & Witchcraft”, by Sir Walter Scott. Letter V: http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/scott/lodw05.htm

42 Consult the following article by Harvard-educated freelance-scholar, Max Dashú, for more information about the politicization of early-modern and medieval witchcraft-research in "Witchcraft Politics: Another View of the Witch-Hunts. (Response to Jenny Gibbons, Pomegranate, #5)"; it was initially published in the peer-reviewed journal, The Pomegranate: www.suppressedhistories.net/secrethistory/witchpolitics.html; also consult the article, “Collars and Scholars”, linked in footnote #14; while, Dr. Emma Wilby laments that “British historians have not taken seriously” the consensus of early-modern witchcraft-belief as a visionary-tradition (ie. shamanism) drawn by Continental academia in her article, “British Shamanism: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions in Early Modern British Witchcraft”, Circle, issue 98 [Spring, 2007], pp. 42-3. As an example of Dr. Wilby’s charge, consult Prof. Owen Davies’ mitigation of her analyses in his article: “Cunning-Folk: Recent Research”, Pentacle, issue 21 [Beltane/Summer, 2007], pp. 28-30. The reader is also urged to consult Dr. Wilby’s highly acclaimed book: Cunning Folk and Familiar Encounters: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions in Early Modern British Witchcraft and Magic [Sussex Academic Press, 2006].

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 21st, 2008, 09:44 PM
Do Cohn and Hutton dwell under your bed and make attempts to tear off your feet at night, or something?

Your syntax has improved tremendously, but you're still writing things that are patently ridiculous.

MacMorrighan
October 21st, 2008, 11:54 PM
Do Cohn and Hutton dwell under your bed and make attempts to tear off your feet at night, or something?

Your syntax has improved tremendously, but you're still writing things that are patently ridiculous.

Would you care to defend your clearly peripherally based (ie. emotionally unsubstantiated) personal opinions using logical deductive reasoning, rather than blatantly ignoring European academia (sadly, like Anglo-American academia has done, as though it's non-existent!). It must also be mentioned that you haven't contributed anything to the subject at hand; you have merely attempted to invoke a number of quantifiable Logical Fallacies--these are usually employed to otherwise confuse an impressionable readership (say, MysticWicks members, for example). But, before you comment, you are in essence, duty bound to look up and familiarize yourself very well with my own position and those scholars whom I cite. Otherwise, you have no footing on which to stand in calling any views you may not agree with "patently ridiculous"!

Now, as for Cohn and Hutton, neither engage in logical reasoning (in fact, both engage in numeroius Logical Fallacies that any reputible scholar writing toiday staunchly disavow, even going to far as to expect editors from academic publishers to stop publishing such works!). Such behavior on behalf of Cohn, Briggs and Hutton is intellectually dishonest, and I take it VERY personally--it offends me to the very core of my being! It tells me that he does respect the intellect of his audience.

I'm sure you can imagine my personal outrage when Hutton pulled another well known LF, known as "Observational Selectivity" (an academic no-no!) when writing his Witches, Druids and King Arthur. He wrote, rather authoritatively, that Paganism throughout the Med. was dead and had been completely replaced in the popular consciousness of the peasants fully by Christianity by the end of the sixth-century. Now, he would like us to believe this. But, do his sources support him, or is there any evidence that this is the case? Actually, one book that Hutton cites at length presents quite a contradictory case, employing primary source-material that proved that Paganism throughout the Med. was still thriving; in fact, it wasn't even on the wane by the end of the sixth-century: Prof. Bowersock's Hellenism in Late Antiquity (by "hellenism" he means "Paganism"). But, of all he chapters Hutton cited in their entirity, the ONE chapter that Hutton refused to cite is that which contained this unequivocal data! This counter-data deserved at least a footnote! But, it didn't get even that! I loathe feeling like I'm being deliberately mislead and lied to. Nothing pisses me off more! :o)

'Fraid to say it, but your bias is showin'! ;o)

MacMorrighan
October 22nd, 2008, 01:58 AM
Of course, it is also worth bearing in mind the position that the late, mendacious, Norman Cohn comes from. He is of Jewish heritage and came to view anything he deemed as "irrational" as being "proto-Nazi". This is why he set his proverbial sights onto Margaret Murray, who wrote the Intro. to GBG's "Witchcraft Today" (which was making headlines at the time). Hence, his view re: the Witchcraft Trials was that nothing with seeming "fantastical" elements can be accepted (and anyone whom would try was, in his view, a fool!); so, when it was brought to his attention by numerous scholars (such as Michael Harner, for instance) that the trials bear an unmistakible IE shamanic impetus, Cohn began to peddle backwards and claim that such a thesis cannot be allowed for, because (again, in his view), it was dependant upon the psychadellic 1960s as an impetus--that is, he "argued" that, without this decade, such a thesis would have never even been suggested by any scholar, EVER! I'm sure you can see what faulty logic such a conclusion really is (talk about "patently ridiculous"!). In so doing, this is classic reductionism where one attempts to (as I've already said) peddle backwards and forces (well, he hopes to, anyway) the data to fit his personal opinions and beliefs! This is a grivous academic cardinal sin!

Now, let us tuern to Margaret Murray (whether one want to hear it or not, it only makes one appear foolish by ignoring the facts that follow): Norman Cohn demonstrably lied about Prof. Murray. The allegations he charged her with--that she ommitted germane data that would have otherwise discredited her thesis--when one compares his mendacious polemic with her actual writings can be seen to be pure bunk. In other words, she, in fact, considered in great detail all but one passage (and it's a minor one at that!), that Cohn claims she purposefully ommitted from her books. Still, this hasn't stopped authors from absolving themselves from actually reading Murray's material, and then comparing them with what Cohn said about her. And, no, Cohn isn't the only scholar to misrepresent her: Ronald Hutton and Jacquelinbe Simpson have both done so, too.

Now, I don't know about you, but I do not, and cannot, respect someone that publishes bold-faced lies (especially when anyone with half a brain cell can look them up for themself to find the honest truth in the matter!). This is that man that Hutton continues to yield unwavering and unqualified support to--heralding his work as "a classic"?! I am interested in HONEST history, rather than something more politically-based or "made-up", and even misleading! If I catch someone lying to me, or misleading me, I want them to know that I'm going to remember that; and I'll take it very personally! This is not unreasonable.

And, furthermore, I defy any intelligent individuals, anywhere, to defend the ommission of data by Hutton as "the strength of his academic rigour"; when this is actually a sign of academic weakness, should that demonstrable counter-data be included or disclosed in his writings (as a Historian he's duty-bound to include them before drawing any conclusions, or at the very least show a knowledge of this data). Oh, and the irony of this is: by making a case through knowing ommission of germane data--as in his Witches, Druids and King Arthur--Hutton has done that which Cohn claimed Murray did...though, in this case, Hutton really did do it, unlike Murray! And, it's also ironic that Cohn lied about Murray, because one of the 10 Commandments adhered to by the Jews is, "Though shalt not bear false witness...".

David19
October 22nd, 2008, 07:52 AM
Of course, it is also worth bearing in mind the position that the late, mendacious, Norman Cohn comes from. He is of Jewish heritage and came to view anything he deemed as "irrational" as being "proto-Nazi".

I don't think being of Jewish ancestry has anything to do with the works he has done. I know you don't seem to like him, but, I don't think you should critique someone based on their culture/ethnicity/religion.

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but, have you already reviewed this book in previous threads?(here (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=181883) and here (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=176189)).

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 22nd, 2008, 09:01 AM
Wait a minute, did you just accuse Cohn of Godwinning Murray? :falloffch:

MacMorrighan
October 22nd, 2008, 10:18 AM
I don't think being of Jewish ancestry has anything to do with the works he has done. I know you don't seem to like him, but, I don't think you should critique someone based on their culture/ethnicity/religion.

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but, have you already reviewed this book in previous threads?(here (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=181883) and here (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=176189)).

Thank you, David. The one thing I do not want to be viewed as is being an anti-semite, or even a biggot of any kind. However, when someone's religious or cultural heritage may very well be coloring their calculated views, I feel that itm is germane to the discussion. Especially when an argument can be made to that effect. Similarly, I am convinced (and nothing will convince me otherwise) that the reason Hutton has come to such (ridiculous) extremist conclusions as he has is because he is Pagan. Of coiurse, he won't admit to that.

And, yes, I have posted a VERY early edn. of this review. However, this one is far greatly explanded, with copious footnotes. (I somehow suspect that some readers haven't actually read my endnotes.)

MacMorrighan
October 22nd, 2008, 10:29 AM
Wait a minute, did you just accuse Cohn of Godwinning Murray? :falloffch:

It has been demonstrably proven that Norman Cohn LIED about Margaret Murray (as have Hutton and Simpson, et al.)! Don't believe me? Just look it up yourself--I dare you. Get ahold of Cohn's book, Europe's Inner Demons, and both of Murray's books, The Witch-Cult in Western Europe and The God of the Witches. Then, compare what Cohn says of Murray with what she actually wrote. You will find--if you want to--that the two do not match up as Cohn has presented them. Because, I am under the severe impression that you haven't actually read her works before. In fact, it sounds like you have merely accepted as factual what has been said about her from biased secondary sources with demonstrably underhanded motives. Until then, I sincerely believe that you shouldn't speak out against Murray with such vitriol as you are. It's only fair, after all. I would expect nothing less from anyone else, on any other issue. :bow: Are you, may I ask, even interested in honest history?

Valnorran
October 22nd, 2008, 11:31 AM
But, before you comment, you are in essence, duty bound to look up and familiarize yourself very well with my own position and those scholars whom I cite.
In an effort to understand your position, could you tell us what your scholarly/academic credentials are?

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 22nd, 2008, 12:19 PM
It has been demonstrably proven that Norman Cohn LIED about Margaret Murray (as have Hutton and Simpson, et al.)! Don't believe me? Just look it up yourself--I dare you. Get ahold of Cohn's book, Europe's Inner Demons, and both of Murray's books, The Witch-Cult in Western Europe and The God of the Witches. Then, compare what Cohn says of Murray with what she actually wrote. You will find--if you want to--that the two do not match up as Cohn has presented them. Because, I am under the severe impression that you haven't actually read her works before. In fact, it sounds like you have merely accepted as factual what has been said about her from biased secondary sources with demonstrably underhanded motives. Until then, I sincerely believe that you shouldn't speak out against Murray with such vitriol as you are. It's only fair, after all. I would expect nothing less from anyone else, on any other issue. :bow: Are you, may I ask, even interested in honest history?

I think this is the third or fourth time you've accused me of not actually reading the authors in question, and the third or fourth time I've said that yes, as a matter of fact, I have read Murray, Cohn, Levack, Hutton, Rose, Roper, and Briggs, and have found in each and every case that everyone but Murray makes worlds more of sense.

At least this time you're not saying I'm simply too young to have read the books in question, which is, I suppose, an improvement.

I am interested in something called the truth, where I need not rely on lies, myths, obfuscation and storytelling to validate my faith.

Valnorran, macMorrighan hasn't got any credentials. He actually hates and reviles the academic establishment, if you go and have a look at his other long-winded, rambling, and demented postings. And yet he seems to earnestly desire their approval. How very strange.

Hey Wade, how's that incestuous little Yahoo group that you, Carla, Eran and Raven Grimassi have? I poke my head in every now and then to see how the Magic Circle-jerk is going.

David19
October 22nd, 2008, 01:14 PM
Thank you, David. The one thing I do not want to be viewed as is being an anti-semite, or even a biggot of any kind. However, when someone's religious or cultural heritage may very well be coloring their calculated views, I feel that itm is germane to the discussion. Especially when an argument can be made to that effect. Similarly, I am convinced (and nothing will convince me otherwise) that the reason Hutton has come to such (ridiculous) extremist conclusions as he has is because he is Pagan. Of coiurse, he won't admit to that.

And, yes, I have posted a VERY early edn. of this review. However, this one is far greatly explanded, with copious footnotes. (I somehow suspect that some readers haven't actually read my endnotes.)

I'm still a bit confused about how Cohn's Jewish ancestry makes him biased towards Murray, was Murray some kind of anti-Semite or something?, if she was, maybe, there'd be case for his bias, but other than that, I just don't see it.

Kaylara
October 22nd, 2008, 02:50 PM
Valnorran, macMorrighan hasn't got any credentials. He actually hates and reviles the academic establishment, if you go and have a look at his other long-winded, rambling, and demented postings. And yet he seems to earnestly desire their approval. How very strange.
Hey Wade, how's that incestuous little Yahoo group that you, Carla, Eran and Raven Grimassi have? I poke my head in every now and then to see how the Magic Circle-jerk is going.

This is a personal attack against more than one member of this site. Please refrain from making personal attacks, as it against the respect rule. If you have any question regarding this Admin mode, please feel free to pm me.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 22nd, 2008, 03:20 PM
I'm still a bit confused about how Cohn's Jewish ancestry makes him biased towards Murray, was Murray some kind of anti-Semite or something?, if she was, maybe, there'd be case for his bias, but other than that, I just don't see it.

Murray was not, to my knowledge, an anti-Semite. Nor was she an anthropologist. She was, in fact, an Egyptologist, trained under Flinders Petrie himself. She never received a formal education in the subject and yet her writing on Egyptology is still fairly respected in the field. Her later work on witchcraft, however, was never accepted as anything close to fact by academia and it's quite possibly Gerald Gardner's fault that her crackpot and carefully cherry-picked theories are remembered today.

Given another twenty years, Murray's theories will be one hundred years old and hopefully consigned to the trash-bin of history where they can join other such lunacy as Gimbutas' Kurgan hypothesis.

Remember, the entire academic establishment all over the world is conspiring to crush the validity of Murray's hypothesis, because they know it will blow their carefully constructed ivory tower to smithereens, or something. They know that she's dangerous, of course. And since she wasn't really a member of their society, they hate and fear what she and her supporters want to say.

Hell, it makes about as much sense as anything the Murrayites come up with. But then again, I'm a mindless Huttonite who wants to crush BTW Wiccans beneath my iron-shod boots, or something.

David19
October 22nd, 2008, 07:54 PM
Murray was not, to my knowledge, an anti-Semite. Nor was she an anthropologist. She was, in fact, an Egyptologist, trained under Flinders Petrie himself. She never received a formal education in the subject and yet her writing on Egyptology is still fairly respected in the field. Her later work on witchcraft, however, was never accepted as anything close to fact by academia and it's quite possibly Gerald Gardner's fault that her crackpot and carefully cherry-picked theories are remembered today.

Given another twenty years, Murray's theories will be one hundred years old and hopefully consigned to the trash-bin of history where they can join other such lunacy as Gimbutas' Kurgan hypothesis.

Remember, the entire academic establishment all over the world is conspiring to crush the validity of Murray's hypothesis, because they know it will blow their carefully constructed ivory tower to smithereens, or something. They know that she's dangerous, of course. And since she wasn't really a member of their society, they hate and fear what she and her supporters want to say.

Hell, it makes about as much sense as anything the Murrayites come up with. But then again, I'm a mindless Huttonite who wants to crush BTW Wiccans beneath my iron-shod boots, or something.

:lol:, and thanks for the info, it's just I'm not sure why Cohn's Jewish ancestry has anything to do why he's critical of Murray. That's like saying, if you're Jewish, or have Jewish ancestry, you can't be investigate a European Witch cult, which is totally bogus, IMO.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 23rd, 2008, 12:01 PM
:lol:, and thanks for the info, it's just I'm not sure why Cohn's Jewish ancestry has anything to do why he's critical of Murray. That's like saying, if you're Jewish, or have Jewish ancestry, you can't be investigate a European Witch cult, which is totally bogus, IMO.

I believe that to MacMorrighan, Norman Cohn is the Great Satan. I'm not sure which one the Little Satan is, but since he seems to believe that Ronald Hutton depends on Cohn's arguments, I'm going to guess that Hutton is the Little Satan.

I don't understand this ridiculous emphasis on Cohn as the source of all evil - I mean, Levack, Briggs, and Roper all come to the same conclusions - that were was no witch-cult, and social reasons, economic factors, and tension between Catholics and Protestants were actually to blame - but no, they're always accused of deriving their arguments from Cohn.

The Murray hypothesis is like an extremely tattered, torn, and ragged bit of lace - there's more holes there than substance, some of them are extremely large and unrepairable, and sooner or later the entire thing is going to fall apart, regardless of what you do - you can try to delay it all you like, but its decay is inevitable.

MacMorrighan
October 23rd, 2008, 03:28 PM
I think this is the third or fourth time you've accused me of not actually reading the authors in question, and the third or fourth time I've said that yes, as a matter of fact, I have read Murray, Cohn, Levack, Hutton, Rose, Roper, and Briggs, and have found in each and every case that everyone but Murray makes worlds more of sense.

These are not "the books in question" that I was refering to; in fact, if we were engaging in any sort of an academic discussion, I would suggest that, before you speak on an issue, you ought to to familiarize yourself with academic counter-points that have reached a far differing conclusion. More to the point, having not read the works of countless scholars and professional historians from Continental Europe, I might personally argue that this nullifies you from engaging in any sort of debate, or even speaking about Medieval Witchcraft. Of course, I would say the exact same thing of anyone. Is there a reason why you refuse to acknowledge the European academic consensus on the subject?

What you are relying upon is only one school of thought, at the detriment of another highly respected school of thought. This is a tragic logical fallacy at the onset. In so doing, one effectively claim that no proof is proof enough... So, of course, we know how little rationale such a pressumption actually holds.

I have been able to trace many fascets of IE shamanism (recounted within the Witch Trials)--such as the St. Lucy Stool phenomenon--back to their circum-polar impetus amid the Shamans of Siberia, Mongolia and even China and Japan. Moreover, I have been able to trace IE hearth-goddesses (such as the Medieval Brigit) back to their circum-polar antecedants: such examples are virginal attendees; the hearth-fire being the province of purity itself; and that, when a clan moves, theyn establish their new home by carrying with them a token flame or coal from their ancestral hearth, etc. I am also developing a thesis for a Eurasian seasonal calendar that proximately align with the Irish-Gaelic seasonal portals.


I am interested in something called the truth, where I need not rely on lies, myths, obfuscation and storytelling to validate my faith.

Any professor of pghilosophy will tell you that "the truth" is a relative and entirely subjective; one man's "truth" is nmot amnothers. Rather, I am interested in HONEST history, instead of something that's "made-up", or otherwise purposefully misleading! Answer me something: Do you regard the consensus drawn by European academia--hence, do you regard European academia [eg. Henningsen or Pocs]--to be "lies, myths, obfuscation and storytelling"?

I don't know about you, but whern I find a scholar--ANY scholar, demonstrably lying to my face, and I can prove it: I take that VERY personally--it sorely offends me more than anything (I don't like feeling as though someone's lying to me, or otherwise withholding relatively germane data from me, as if the means somehow justify the ends). Does it not bother you that Cohn, Simpson and Hutton demonstrablied lied and misrepresented what Murray actually wrote in order to perpetuate a lie? That straw man argument of theirs should bother you deeply. I have even found several examples where Hutton has knowingly misrepresented his sources (both primary and secondary-academic); even Ben (an Alexandrian HP from new Zealand and Wikipedia editor) checked up on Hutton's sources, only to find that his source's views are not acurately reflected by Hutton...in fact, Hutton claims hey take the opposite position to what these scholars actually make. You can read his research for yourself in the Files section of WiccaApollogia. I dare you to read it! Whether you are interested in the facts , I don't know--but, it doesn't seem too likely, from my perspective. otherwise, you wouldn't be so unwilling to question the authors whom you endorse; and you would also take other scholastic views into account, as well.


Valnorran, macMorrighan hasn't got any credentials. He actually hates and reviles the academic establishment, if you go and have a look at his other long-winded, rambling, and demented postings. And yet he seems to earnestly desire their approval. How very strange.

Actually, I am writing a MS. on the history of the Sabbats; and a local academic/university press has shown great interest in publishiung the complete work! Moreover, I have gotten the aid of many specialist scholars (rather than mere general historians) to read my MS. and check up on it in matters of fact.

And, I am sad that you would engage to sucy emotionally-based peripheral arguments that seek to side-step any factual evidence at hand. If you were reallyminterested in honest and accurate history, I gather that you would also have read many European scholars by know, and call out ANY scholar (yes, even Hutton) when you have found that he is actually misleading=his readers!

Now, as the so-called "academic establishment": What a fascist comment to make! There is no "established" academic authority on any issues. To have such would, indeed, be very frightning and totaliterian! Rather, as far as academics, there is NO "establishment" (as you seem to imagine), but a variety of theories and personal opinions on any given matter. "Establishment" indeed! *snort*


Wade, how's that incestuous little Yahoo group that you, Carla, Eran and Raven Grimassi have? I poke my head in every now and then to see how the Magic Circle-jerk is going.

Just remember: Empty vessels make the most noise. (One snide comment deserves another!) However, why not post something to WiccaApollogia and engage in thoughtful and factually-based discussion with us? Often, members have discussed the factual basis of Hutton's material, which I have found very misleading--perhaps you might find that useful in your own understanding of medieval Witchcraft-belief of the peasant populations and the academia in the issue?

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 23rd, 2008, 06:01 PM
And I suppose Murray's lies, omissions, obfuscations and over-assumptions are just fine, then? The playing with numbers, the creative use of ellipsis, these are acceptable to you?

Good job on calling me a fascist, by the way.

MacMorrighan
October 23rd, 2008, 11:01 PM
I'm still a bit confused about how Cohn's Jewish ancestry makes him biased towards Murray, was Murray some kind of anti-Semite or something?, if she was, maybe, there'd be case for his bias, but other than that, I just don't see it.

Please nte that I didn't directly implicate Margaret Murray, though she was a by proxy victim of what Cohn viewed as "irrational" (a concept he regarded as proto-Nazi). Though, it probably did effect him, ultimately, more than it ought to have when he aimed his guns directly towards Murray--engaging in an ad hominem attack against her, as well as misrepresenting her writings. It is only natural, of course, for his views re: of the Nazis (whom he deemed "irrational") to color his views and subsequent "conclusions". That's the nut-shell version.

MacMorrighan
October 23rd, 2008, 11:24 PM
And I suppose Murray's lies, omissions, obfuscations and over-assumptions are just fine, then? The playing with numbers, the creative use of ellipsis, these are acceptable to you?

I am not saying that Murray is perfect; indeed, some of her beliefs clearly are untenable--for example, her views re: Jeanne d'Arc. But, her elipses really cannot be fodder for an antithetical debate directed against her. After all, Cohn *also* engaged in--as you say--creative use of elipses"! This is a disavowed Logical Fallacy known as (say it with me, now): "special pleading" (I've already discussed this in my critique); so, it was foolish for Cohn to even broach this "topic" as an excuse for "debunking" Murray. And, when you call her a "lier"--this is a massive over-simplification of her work. Little is as black-and-white as you might wish it to be. Nor did she ommit what Cohn claims she did! What about that do you NOT understand, 'eh? You can compare her writings alongside his claims of her suppsed "ommissions", only to find that Cohn is misrepresenting her. Why are you consistently supporting a lie that has now been laid to rest with no excuses to defend it?

However, much of her beliefs and writers do seem supported by the current European academic consensus. It's that she lacked a shamanic language with which to speak and refine her arguments.

MacMorrighan
October 23rd, 2008, 11:39 PM
...Murray's theories will be one hundred years old and hopefully consigned to the trash-bin of history where they can join other such lunacy as Gimbutas' Kurgan hypothesis.

What, in your PERSONAL opinion, makes Gimbutas highly respected Kurgan theory (respected by Indo-Europeanists and other scholars!) "lunacy"? Don't buy into Cynthia Eller's straw man argument where she tries to re-define what Murray said by extremist feminazis, thus portraying Gimgutas (incorrectly) through those lenses! Rather, there is a great deal of proof for it: I strongly suggest you read the writings of Prof. Miriam Robbins Dexter, for instance. Even my own original research tracing Indo-European deities and cultural practices back to their circum-polar antecedants at the Russian Steppes cannot hep but further substantiate this thesis.


Remember, the entire academic establishment all over the world is conspiring to crush the validity of Murray's hypothesis, because they know it will blow their carefully constructed ivory tower to smithereens, or something. They know that she's dangerous, of course. And since she wasn't really a member of their society, they hate and fear what she and her supporters want to say.

What a load of bunk; and,d are I say, this smacks of a raving conspiracy theory!


...I'm a mindless Huttonite who wants to crush BTW Wiccans beneath my iron-shod boots, or something.

And, it's that which causes me such great concern, because you seem to refuse to take seriously the writings of ANY other scholar writing ands teaching on the subject. Er go, you cannot call yourself in anyway objective; nor should you, as a consequence, speak on the subject for that reason alone. And I say this, because, this is like me talking crap about cats being horrid animals, when I'm a dog-person, and don't know a damned thing about felines! If you're not going to educate yourself on the European consensus, than you really ought not speak about the present debate re: medieval Witchcraft-studies--it's only fair and germane to the discussion at hand., After all, how can you claim to have any but a one-sided and extremist subjected view?

Also, remember, I (and many others) have caught Hutton misrepresenting his sources!

MacMorrighan
October 23rd, 2008, 11:54 PM
I don't understand this ridiculous emphasis on Cohn as the source of all evil - I mean, Levack, Briggs, and Roper all come to the same conclusions - that were was no witch-cult, and social reasons, economic factors, and tension between Catholics and Protestants were actually to blame - but no, they're always accused of deriving their arguments from Cohn.

Cohn needs little discussion, given that he demonstrably lied about Murray in order advocate his mendacious "polemic" (given this [and it's been PROVEN!], how can you still support him so drastically?); and I have successfully deconstructed and torn to shreads (without a possibility of hope!) for Briggs' extremist, prosaic, and pathological "arguments" in my review above; while Roper claims there was not Paganism within the Germanic triles--but, Prof. Claude Lecauteux has found just what she alleges didn't exist! Also remember: If I were not Pagan, I would still be just as critical of writers such as Cohn!

Moreover, you purely view the Witch Hunt through such societal perameters is to reject the cultural implications: Why did the Church go after "witches"? They had plenty of other scape-goats, such as the Cathars. None of the scholars whom you site take this highly germane question into account. The cultural iplications make the European consensus far more tenable and satisfying as a logical answer to the issues at hand. They cannot be so easily dismissed as you would rather--and, they demand your respect. Why haven't you read their works, or familiarized yourself with each and every English trans. available to you if you are REALLY interested in the subject to such an extent?! If you were REALLY interested (and objectively so) I would think that you would jump at the chance to draw upon ALL the research and the European consensus, rather than just one very extremist school of thought. That you haven't only shows me the relative weakness of your argument. After all, you haven't attempted to defend your prefered position against any counter- or alternative-theories that are extent.

Valnorran
October 24th, 2008, 08:12 AM
Actually, I am writing a MS. on the history of the Sabbats; and a local academic/university press has shown great interest in publishiung the complete work! Moreover, I have gotten the aid of many specialist scholars (rather than mere general historians) to read my MS. and check up on it in matters of fact.
Do you have a degree in history? What university is this? Who are some of these scholars?

Editted to add: I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "general historian." They all specialize in certain fields.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 24th, 2008, 12:20 PM
Do you have a degree in history? What university is this? Who are some of these scholars?

Editted to add: I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "general historian." They all specialize in certain fields.

I'm not sure if this would be a personal attack or not, but the quality of his posting and spelling leads me to suspect that academia is not MacMorrighan's purview.

I do not rely on Hutton, as I have made clear countless times in the past. I rely on this absolutely astonishing thing called thought and reason, which leads me to conclude that there were no pagans killed in the witch-hysteria; nor was the target of the witch-hysteria paganism - had it been, it would, surprise surprise, be called the pagan hunts or something similar.

Gimbutas' work is a seamy patchwork quilt of subjective, imaginative, and questionable interpretations. I haven't even read Eller's work, although I know if it. Reading Gimbutas was more than ample to prove that she was pulling it out of her ass.

I don't even know why I'm debating this with you. I'm not going to educate you and you're not going to drag me into your delusion, so why do I persist in this?

Oh, and you of all people calling 'Europe's Inner Demons' a mendacious polemic is hilarious.


Why are you consistently supporting a lie that has now been laid to rest with no excuses to defend it?

I think you just broke my funny fuse.

MacMorrighan
October 24th, 2008, 01:29 PM
Do you have a degree in history? What university is this? Who are some of these scholars?

I would normaly be more than happy to tell you whom the Univ. is, but until my MS. is finished, and until the subsequent massive book is published, I don't want to "jinx it".

MacMorrighan
October 24th, 2008, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure if this would be a personal attack or not, but the quality of his posting and spelling leads me to suspect that academia is not MacMorrighan's purview.

Another ad hominem (personal) attack? You ought to be ashamed of yourself!!! And, not that it matters to you, but 99% of my misspellings and typos are the result of my current poorly functioning PC; and, they will remain until I can purchase a new Tower in a month or so. Ugh...you do know what they say about "assuming", don't you?!


I do not rely on Hutton, as I have made clear countless times in the past. I rely on this absolutely astonishing thing called thought and reason, which leads me to conclude that there were no pagans killed in the witch-hysteria; nor was the target of the witch-hysteria paganism - had it been, it would, surprise surprise, be called the pagan hunts or something similar.

But, you do rely on Hutton, as you've made it blatantly clear! You rely on him to an extremnist extent that refuses to allow for other academic points of view!

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the shamanic fertility cults and sects that permeate IE Europe; many of which I have discussed, in the footnotes of my Review.


Gimbutas' work is a seamy patchwork quilt of subjective, imaginative, and questionable interpretations. I haven't even read Eller's work, although I know if it. Reading Gimbutas was more than ample to prove that she was pulling it out of her ass.

Actually, that you seem to reject the Kurgan hypothesis proves to me that you are familiar with Elelr's straw man argument (it's been discussed here enough, so that you are naive to re: it's "evidence" seems blatantly unlikely), rather than the academic support that Gimbutas' thesis presently holds. I would strongly suggest you read Prof. JP Mallory's book: "In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth" and "The OIxford Introductoiry to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World". He is the Ed. of the academic peer-reviewed Journal of Indo-European Studies.

Sadly, Eller thought t was okay to deliberately quoted out of context (a known Logical Fallacy) Mallory's ISO the IEs in order to ditrace her flimsy straw man argument. She claimed that Mallory rejects the Kurgan Expansion thsis on the grounds that, "almost all of the arguments for invasion and cultural transformations are far better explained without reference to Kurgan expansions" [Eller, pp. 165]. However, he actually believes quite the opposite! In this essential "misquote" he was explaining what some other scholars (oftren in the minority) happen to believe: "One might at first imagine that the economy of argument involved with the Kurgan solution should oblige us to accept it outright. But critics do exist and their objections can be summarized quite simply--almost all of the arguments for invasion and cultural transformations are far better explained without reference to Kurgan expansions..." [Mallory, pp. 185]


I'm not going to educate you and you're not going to drag me into your delusion, so why do I persist in this?

"Educate" me?! Of all the impudence!!! My thesis (accepted by a vast and formiddible European academic consensis) is hardly a "delusion"! I honestly challenge you to read, and then perhaps critique the work of these formiddible scholars! Dare to take up my challenge? Or, are you too scared?

Though, I somhow doubt you're up to the challenge--it's damn near impossible to get someone who's set in their ways to even admit that there are equally valid interpretations. Did you even READ my analysis of your "hero" Prof. Briggs? Why do you, then, for example, continue to thoughtlessly reject my views re: his personal opinions (not facts)?


Oh, and you of all people calling 'Europe's Inner Demons' a mendacious polemic is hilarious. I think you just broke my funny fuse.

Prove me wrong!!! I dare you!!! Here, let's define "mendacious", shall we:

MENDACIOUS. adj. not truthful; lying [Webster's New World Dictionary].

Fact: Normah Cohn, when writing his polemical vitriol, declared that Margaret Murray ommitted documentational evidence that she, in fact, did not! He used his elipses just as "creatively" as she, for which he castigated her. Even Margot Adler mentioned this last bit, as I seem to recall. Now, don't even get me started on his ad hominem assault of any scholar (including Murray) with whom he disagreed, or otherwise presented well-established evidence that contradicted his pseudo-logic. The shamanic thesis (which scholars such as eminent micro-Historian Carlo Ginzburg and Cultural Anthropologist, Michael harner both accept--both targets of Cohn's mendacity!) is a prime example of this. Of course, I could list countless European scholars that have written about this popular shamanic thesis, as well as two from the UK (Prof. Lederer and Dr. Emma Wilby); but, I doubt you;d know of them, nor would you (I suspect) be inclined to pour through their research with an objective eye!

You do realize, don't you, that just ignoring any counter-academic opinions won't make them go away. Right? More and more scholars (especially throughout Britian and the US) are turning to this thesis--adopting it--and writing about it! The academic tides are drastically turning. Recently I just heard that a scholar from either the US or the UK (I wasn't told who, despite asking, because the book hasn't been published, yet) is nearly ready to release a book about the shamanic antecedants of the Witch Hunts that will forever lay to rest the prosaic work of scholars such as those whom you have been citing, employing unquivocal documentation and reasoning beyond reproach! As soon as I know the author and book/publisher, I'll immediately let you know!!! Personally, I'm excited, and can't wait to read it, myself.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 24th, 2008, 03:03 PM
I suggest trying a new keyboard prior to shelling out the money for a new computer, if you think that's what the problem is. It's very cute that you try to use that as an excuse, though - a computer problem that causes the keyboard to produce an 'a' instead of an 'e' is an unknown to me. Is English your first language? I shan't hold it against you if it isn't.

Robin Briggs is not my hero - I've mentioned Briggs what, twice? You go far in your assumption that I have actually read Eller but lied about it. No, I haven't. I know about her book, and would like to read it (and many others) but as I am currently unemployed and in school I can't afford to do that or many other things.

I really wish you would stop accusing me of not reading books that I've read, and of reading books I haven't. Clearly you think that the flaws in the Gimbutas theory can only be pointed out to someone, and cannot be seen by themselves.

So I ask this: Have you read 'The Language of the Goddess' or 'The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe'? If so than you would surely be familiar with the incredibly subjective interpretations she puts on the artifacts found at the sites she describes, or the fact that many figurines that may have been male were also found at those sites, but ignored by her. This is a classic case of an author seeing what she wanted to see, much like Philip Heselton seeing paganism in the poetry of Dorothy Clutterbuck - a subjective interpretation which, I'm fairly certain, you've swallowed as fact.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you haven't actually read Murray, or her detractors, and merely cherry-pick quotations to support your untenable, crackpot theories in the same fashion that Murray herself did. And surely if Murray did it, and you do it, it is acceptable for Cohn to do it, yes?

I will lower myself to your level and suggest that you're not writing a manuscript at all, and if you actually are - which I will believe when I see it, and no earlier - then I propose that it will bear a shocking resemblance to Time Cube. Your reluctance to name the institution at which you are studying is damning. In all honesty I'm starting to wonder if you're one of Carla o'Harris' sock-puppets, or if she's yours, given the ranting qualities of your posts and the disturbing similarities in the claims of a book soon to be published.

I suggest that you refrain from posting until you can compose something free of accusations of lies on my part.

PS I didn't say your thesis was a delusion. I meant that the credibility of the Murray hypothesis and that the witch hysteria was about paganism was a delusion.

Valnorran
October 24th, 2008, 03:05 PM
I would normaly be more than happy to tell you whom the Univ. is, but until my MS. is finished, and until the subsequent massive book is published, I don't want to "jinx it".

Actually, that pretty much tells me what I need to know.

Garm
October 24th, 2008, 09:29 PM
Medieval Witchcraft as IE Shamanic Continuation

I can't even agree with the title

The IE bit bothers me

What is specifically IE about it?

This is a European manifestation of a near global phenonema, the IE is incidental and does not strike me as espescially revelant

MacMorrighan
October 25th, 2008, 01:09 AM
I suggest trying a new keyboard prior to shelling out the money for a new computer, if you think that's what the problem is. It's very cute that you try to use that as an excuse, though - a computer problem that causes the keyboard to produce an 'a' instead of an 'e' is an unknown to me. Is English your first language? I shan't hold it against you if it isn't.

Again, you are making a rather grand assumption. The facts are these: my PC is several years old, and is very slow...it is (even more so as of last weekend) so slow that it takes several minutes for what I have actually typed (yes, often with typos) to appear on my screen. But, it is so insufferably and infurriatingly slow that I generally cease correcting my typos--it doesn't take a genius to comprehend my meaning (or does it?). I have tried taking the time to correct each error, but that requires several minuites, each, for my PC to "catch up"!


Robin Briggs is not my hero - I've mentioned Briggs what, twice?

Ah...but you reference him as one of your primary consenting sources! His conclusions have been, for years, relatively untenable, as I have proven above.


I really wish you would stop accusing me of not reading books that I've read, and of reading books I haven't.

Then, please show at least something that passes for objectivity and cease drawing obdurate conclusions based on only very limited knowledge on a given subject from one relatively extremist school of thought, ignoring any others!


Clearly you think that the flaws in the Gimbutas theory can only be pointed out to someone, and cannot be seen by themselves.

So I ask this: Have you read 'The Language of the Goddess' or 'The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe'? If so than you would surely be familiar with the incredibly subjective interpretations she puts on the artifacts found at the sites she describes, or the fact that many figurines that may have been male were also found at those sites, but ignored by her. This is a classic case of an author seeing what she wanted to see...

There is nothing inherrantly "evil" or academiucally sinfuol in this--many of the scholars whom you faun over pull the exact same punches! And, yes, I have read all of Prof. Gimbutas' beautiful books. Still, you have not spoken to her advocation of the Kurgan Expansion. And, dont give me that Femin views that scholars such as Eller purposefully impose upon her, as though they were her views, when they were not (this is s straw man argument; you should be familiar with this, because it is what the late Norman Cohn did you Murray!).


...much like Philip Heselton seeing paganism in the poetry of Dorothy Clutterbuck - a subjective interpretation which, I'm fairly certain, you've swallowed as fact.

First of all: Don't you dare conclude a damned thing about me! I know full well what you are attempting via your ulterior innuendos, and it won't work, here.

And, secondly, remaining objective, you take his writings to extremes that he never intended! He did not overtly state that the writings of her poetry represent paganism as proof positive; rather, he felt that her poetry may have possessed something of a pagan friendly spirit or sense.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you haven't actually read Murray, or her detractors, and merely cherry-pick quotations to support your untenable, crackpot theories in the same fashion that Murray herself did. And surely if Murray did it, and you do it, it is acceptable for Cohn to do it, yes?

Well, your bough would break, because I have read Murray, and her generally mendacious detractors! And, what the F*** are you talking about: "...and merely cherry-pick quotations to support your untenable, crackpot theories". I certainly do NOT "cherry pick", nor are my theories "crack pot" (they are, in fact, held in high regard by European academia and their consensus!).


I will lower myself to your level and suggest that you're not writing a manuscript at all...

Oh, puh-leeze! I have had several articles published in the US and abroad; and I have several manuscripts in the works as we speak!


I suggest that you refrain from posting until you can compose something free of accusations of lies on my part.

I've never said anything that is demonstrably false and deliberately misleading.


PS I didn't say your thesis was a delusion. I meant that the credibility of the Murray hypothesis and that the witch hysteria was about paganism was a delusion.

Actually, you're back-tracking, now; you made it blatantly clear that you regard the European academic consensus with disdain! If this was not your intention, than maybve you should have rephrased your assaults with far more decorum and a more logical "follow through" so that one doesn't have to fill in the blanks on their own. Still, one is generally unlikely to misrepresent a declaration one makes when they regard their writings and research (posted) as "a delusion"--research that is based upon leading European authorities in the Witch Trials!

You, my friend, seriously need to practice a little more empathy, I believe.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 25th, 2008, 09:51 AM
Again, you are making a rather grand assumption. The facts are these: my PC is several years old, and is very slow...it is (even more so as of last weekend) so slow that it takes several minutes for what I have actually typed (yes, often with typos) to appear on my screen. But, it is so insufferably and infurriatingly slow that I generally cease correcting my typos--it doesn't take a genius to comprehend my meaning (or does it?). I have tried taking the time to correct each error, but that requires several minuites, each, for my PC to "catch up"!

I don't have the time to reply to the rest of your wild allegations at the moment, but if the above is the case, you might want to try shutting down any programs running in the background - look in the system tray where the clock is and see if there's anything running that you don't actually need running - RealPlayer, CPU-usage monitors, that sort of thing. Background processes can really slow a computer down and make it hard to use. You may also try running system cleanup if you haven't already, and defragging it. If you don't know how to do these things, let me know.

David19
October 25th, 2008, 12:13 PM
I would normaly be more than happy to tell you whom the Univ. is, but until my MS. is finished, and until the subsequent massive book is published, I don't want to "jinx it".

This may be OT, but, I'm generally curious, what's an MS?, I thought it might stand for Masters, but, I'm not too sure. Also, when you say "massive book", how massive will it be (like pages wise, 300, 400, 500, etc)?.

Valnorran
October 26th, 2008, 08:03 AM
MS = manuscript, though without a history degree or any other professional credentials, I have a hard time believing a university press would even glance at it. Moreover, I find it incredible that historians, busy with their own research and their teaching duties, would spare any time for an amateur.

David19
October 26th, 2008, 09:51 AM
MS = manuscript, though without a history degree or any other professional credentials, I have a hard time believing a university press would even glance at it. Moreover, I find it incredible that historians, busy with their own research and their teaching duties, would spare any time for an amateur.

Thanks for telling me :) :thumbsup:.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 26th, 2008, 05:49 PM
MS = manuscript, though without a history degree or any other professional credentials, I have a hard time believing a university press would even glance at it. Moreover, I find it incredible that historians, busy with their own research and their teaching duties, would spare any time for an amateur.

If I were to say this I'll bet someone would give me a Warning :P

It's OK Valnorran, we can both wallow in our willful ignorance. MacMorrighan will always know the truth.

Valnorran
October 27th, 2008, 08:15 AM
I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I'm currently pursuing my Master's in history (I'm in my second semester and I expect I'll be finished after three more), so I've some idea of how the history profession works. I've also submitted a fiction manuscript to numerous publishers - and been rejected - so I've some idea of how the publishing world works, too. Sorry, but I just don't see a university press even considering publishing a book by someone who hasn't even written an undergrad level research paper. And I personally see how busy historians are. I see no reason why they'd take time out of their hectic schedules to help out an amatuer with an entire manuscript when he doesn't even have a bachelor's degree in history. An essay or paper, okay, but a whole book? Unlikely. They already have a snootful of stuff to read from their own students as well as their research and keeping up with developments in their field.

I'm trying to word this as diplomatically as I can, but I'm very skeptical of macMorrigan's claim.

MacMorrighan
October 27th, 2008, 05:27 PM
I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I'm currently pursuing my Master's in history (I'm in my second semester and I expect I'll be finished after three more), so I've some idea of how the history profession works. I've also submitted a fiction manuscript to numerous publishers - and been rejected - so I've some idea of how the publishing world works, too. Sorry, but I just don't see a university press even considering publishing a book by someone who hasn't even written an undergrad level research paper. And I personally see how busy historians are. I see no reason why they'd take time out of their hectic schedules to help out an amatuer with an entire manuscript when he doesn't even have a bachelor's degree in history. An essay or paper, okay, but a whole book? Unlikely. They already have a snootful of stuff to read from their own students as well as their research and keeping up with developments in their field.

I'm trying to word this as diplomatically as I can, but I'm very skeptical of macMorrigan's claim.

I have known several Univ. Press's here in the US. that have published books by non-Historians, etc. In fact, Oxford UP has definately poublished some turkies! While the Lousiana UP has even published cookbooks, for example; while other UP's (New Mexico, I believe) have published both non-fiction, and works of poetry. So, to declare being skeptical about a UP ever publishing anything allegedly "non-academic" is a red herring argument (a known Logical Fallacy). And, that my thesis is somehow non-academic (despite being upheld by the European academic ESTABLISHMENT) is outlandish!

I also happen to write a semi-regular column for the local Gay community state-wide newspaper which it published by this UP; so I am well acquainted with the eds. and even some professors of history that work, there.

I am also not so naive at how blatantly cruel Pagans can be. I have told people where I was metriculated, on;y to have them deliberately make trouble with me with former professors! So, I keep a lot of data private--and for good reason! I don't trust you (or Silverfire DarkMoon...whom I'm relatively sure would jump at the chance!) enough to imagine that you wouldn't check up on me and warn this UP about your percieved "academic standing" against me (when it's ONLY a difference of academic OPINION!). So, can you REALLY blame me for being so suspicious? I seriously doubt that anyone would be so foolish as to find my suspicious heart somehow unreasonable. My Profs. had informed me that someone they didn't know were spreading rumors of me by contacting them on-line, etc. Rumors that had NO basis in fact.

MacMorrighan
October 27th, 2008, 05:37 PM
And I personally see how busy historians are. I see no reason why they'd take time out of their hectic schedules to help out an amatuer with an entire manuscript when he doesn't even have a bachelor's degree in history. An essay or paper, okay, but a whole book? Unlikely. They already have a snootful of stuff to read from their own students as well as their research and keeping up with developments in their field.

Well, I suggest you poise the same question to Silver RavenWolf, of all people, whom had Ronald Hutton review her WHOLE massive--and uber-hoakey--MS. for The Ultimate Book of Shadows! Then there was historians Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick whom each had numerous specialists review their MS. for A History of Pagan Europe (published by the academic Routledge Press); even the general historian, Ronald Hutton reviewed their MS. (he even recommended it to me, once, many years ago...despite the fact that he cannot be seen to Professionally Agree with it, or endorse it. Also, you don't know WHAT my degree is in; so, how you can declare that I don't have a degree is Field X is illogical and must be redacted on your behalf.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 27th, 2008, 08:37 PM
Well, I suggest you poise the same question to Silver RavenWolf, of all people, whom had Ronald Hutton review her WHOLE massive--and uber-hoakey--MS. for The Ultimate Book of Shadows! Then there was historians Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick whom each had numerous specialists review their MS. for A History of Pagan Europe (published by the academic Routledge Press); even the general historian, Ronald Hutton reviewed their MS. (he even recommended it to me, once, many years ago...despite the fact that he cannot be seen to Professionally Agree with it, or endorse it. Also, you don't know WHAT my degree is in; so, how you can declare that I don't have a degree is Field X is illogical and must be redacted on your behalf.

Produce evidence of this communication between you and Mr. Hutton and I might begin to believe that it actually happened.

Tell us what your degree is in, then. It's a perfectly reasonable request.


I am also not so naive at how blatantly cruel Pagans can be. I have told people where I was metriculated, on;y to have them deliberately make trouble with me with former professors! So, I keep a lot of data private--and for good reason! I don't trust you (or Silverfire DarkMoon...whom I'm relatively sure would jump at the chance!) enough to imagine that you wouldn't check up on me and warn this UP about your percieved "academic standing" against me (when it's ONLY a difference of academic OPINION!). So, can you REALLY blame me for being so suspicious? I seriously doubt that anyone would be so foolish as to find my suspicious heart somehow unreasonable. My Profs. had informed me that someone they didn't know were spreading rumors of me by contacting them on-line, etc. Rumors that had NO basis in fact.

Ah, so now you're insinuating that I'd contact whatever school you claim to be at and somehow try to ruin your reputation by falsely claiming to have some variety of academic standing?

Kindly eat shit and die.

Valnorran
October 28th, 2008, 08:38 AM
So, to declare being skeptical about a UP ever publishing anything allegedly "non-academic" is a red herring argument (a known Logical Fallacy).
Except that's not what I said. I said a university press isn't likely to publish a history book by someone who does not have so much as a bachelor's degree in history. A red herring argument is addressing a point that was never made.

And, that my thesis is somehow non-academic (despite being upheld by the European academic ESTABLISHMENT) is outlandish!
Again, I never said this. I made no remark about your thesis at all. I asked what degee(s) you held and you never told. From this I conclude you don't have a degree, at least not in history.

I also happen to write a semi-regular column for the local Gay community state-wide newspaper which it published by this UP; so I am well acquainted with the eds. and even some professors of history that work, there.
So what? And I'd have an easier time believing this assertion if your posts weren't so riddled with errors.

I am also not so naive at how blatantly cruel Pagans can be. I have told people where I was metriculated, on;y to have them deliberately make trouble with me with former professors! So, I keep a lot of data private--and for good reason! I don't trust you (or Silverfire DarkMoon...whom I'm relatively sure would jump at the chance!) enough to imagine that you wouldn't check up on me and warn this UP about your percieved "academic standing" against me (when it's ONLY a difference of academic OPINION!). So, can you REALLY blame me for being so suspicious? I seriously doubt that anyone would be so foolish as to find my suspicious heart somehow unreasonable. My Profs. had informed me that someone they didn't know were spreading rumors of me by contacting them on-line, etc. Rumors that had NO basis in fact.
All I asked was what university was it. I got my bachelor's in social studies education and am pursuing my Master's in history at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. Prudence is one thing, but there should be no resistance to naming the institution you attend. Moreover, if you publish this I should think you'd want to at least acknowledge those professors who helped you. How is it you could mention their names in a published book but not the internet? Surely someone as cautious as yourself can understand that when somebody on the internet offers up anonymous universities and professors as his credentials we can't just take his word for it.

I have no interest in undermining your publishing efforts, but what I find interesting is how you rail so mightily against dishonest scholars who lie to you, yet you're so resistant to someone applying the very same standard to you. Of course one should question what people say, which is what I'm doing here. If your research is solid, you have nothing to fear, least of all from a mere historian-in-training. If you can't cope with my simple questions, wait until actual professional scholars get ahold of your work. Moreover, if you have scholarly credentials, no internet rumor will undermine them. A professor simply has to look up your transcripts and verify your qualifications. Some goon on the web saying you have none will not stand in the face of that, so again you have nothing to fear.

Well, I suggest you poise the same question to Silver RavenWolf, of all people, whom had Ronald Hutton review her WHOLE massive--and uber-hoakey--MS. for The Ultimate Book of Shadows!
Source, please.

Then there was historians Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick whom each had numerous specialists review their MS. for A History of Pagan Europe (published by the academic Routledge Press);
Notice how these two authors are historians. In other words, they have professional credentials, so other historians would be happy to help them.

Also, you don't know WHAT my degree is in;
Because you've never told me, despite my asking you. Twice.

so, how you can declare that I don't have a degree is Field X is illogical and must be redacted on your behalf.
I've asked twice what degree you hold. You have responded with virtually everything except what degree you hold. This strikes me as unusual because most people undertaking a project of this size are all too willing to enumerate their credentials. They will - usually with some pride - readily tell what degrees they hold. You haven't. The most likely reason I can think of is you don't have a history degree (relevent when one seeks to publish a historical work) or perhaps no degree at all. Your defensiveness reinforces this impression. Indeed, your refusal to answer a simple, standard question coupled with vigorously bringing up irrelevent or tangential points strikes me as a huge red flag.

So, what degree do you hold and what insitution awarded it to you?

ffetcher
October 29th, 2008, 05:36 AM
I completely missed this thread until now, so I may have missed things in catching up with seven days worth of posts: I apologise if so and trust that someone will point out my errors.

It seems to me that there are several aspects to the thread. Firstly Wade's review, which I'd seen in an earlier form and which is much improved in this version. From that, he develops arguments about whether Murray was misrepresented, whether there is evidence for the witch-cult as a shamanic survival (I-E or not) whether the European model applies to the UK and whether some authors are ignoring that evidence, if it exists.

Since there's been some questioning of Wade's credentials (and I consider myself included in one of the ad hominem attacks), I'd better justify myself before I continue. I have a degree - it's in Engineering, but my extended project was on the epidemiology of Cholera and my dissertation was a hundred page history of air pollution legislation from 1370 to 1949. I've been an amateur folklorist for overt thirty years and I've done some postgraduate work on rare books and manuscripts at three university libraries. I've also written a few lay articles on neuroscience, which fact may become germane if we ever get back to shamanism. My current research on the Crotona Fellowship is summarised on my web site, there was some sucking of teeth over whether I'd broken the terms of my NDA, and I've also signed an NDA on my work on mediaeval Flanders until my collaborators have got published.

I've never, as an amateur, had difficulty finding scholars to discuss my findings - more often the problem is getting a word in edgeways. That applies to neuroscience, folklore, history, anthropology and religious studies. Perhaps the scene is different in the US. Access to materials is a real problem for amateurs over here, but not discussion or review.

sooo...

Margaret Murray is the obvious place to start. Wade is aware that I'm entirely unconvinced by her work on the wich-cults and I've pointed out in the past that she does indeed play fast and loose with her data. However, it's also true that much has been said about her research tactics that is untrue. Cohn is certainly guilty at times, as are others. It's true that little or nothing from Murray makes it into Gardner's and Valiente's writings, but it's also true that the very existence of the books affected the development of the Crotona Fellowship and thus the "New Forest Coven". My take on that is on my web-site, so I won't repeat it here.

There's certainly good evidence for the existence of witch cults in certain areas of mainland Europe, and a number of scholars have made good cases for the interpretation of some aspects of the descriptions as shamanic experiences. Some aspects of these described experiences tally well with modern neuroscience, and for me the smart money is on the techniques having evolvedas htings that 'worked' were retained and things that didn't were discarded.

Does this mean that all descriptions are 'real'? Palpably not; many are obvious fabrications. Does this mean that there was necessarily direct transmission of the material between the laity? Also palpably not. The material could have been preserved and re-emerged at various times and places. I've seen this happen in the course of my work on the Crotona Fellowship, both in the mid 1930s when the group was active and over the last eighteen months when one of my collaborators, having no previous experience of paganism or Wicca, produced a wonderful sacred marriage ritual from some of the Crotona material. This isn't the 'lineage' that's so valued in some circles, but it is 'survival' in my book and I see no reason why the same model shouldn't apply to Flanders. The experiences are echoed both in heretical writings and in mainstream Christian mysticism as well: they're pretty much perrennial.

Now to the nub of the matter: can European moidels be applied to the UK? I'm not so sure about this. There's good evidence for early belief in witches in England, but no hard and fast evidence for their existence before the witch-craze, at which point most of the descriptions seem to be fabrications. An author confining their work to the British Isles, then, is to some extent justified in playing down the evidence from mainland Europe: what they're not justified in saying is that there's no evidence. My own opinion is that it's unlikely, given the evidence from parts of mainland Europe, that there were no genuine witchcraft events in England, and that British and American scholars should accept that possibility.

It's also absolutely untrue that paganism had died out in Europe and the UK by the end of the sixth century. Hungary didn't espouse Christianity until 1001, and Cnut (Canute) was still publishing edicts against well-worship, reverence for trees and stones, etc. In England as late as the early eleventh century. However, Prof Hutton is much less extreme on such matters when talking, than he is in print.

blessings
ffetcher

Valnorran
October 29th, 2008, 08:13 AM
I've never, as an amateur, had difficulty finding scholars to discuss my findings - more often the problem is getting a word in edgeways. That applies to neuroscience, folklore, history, anthropology and religious studies. Perhaps the scene is different in the US. Access to materials is a real problem for amateurs over here, but not discussion or review.
Yeah, but you at least have a degree, so while you might be an amateur in history, you are not a scholarly amateur. You know how to research, how to structure an argument and a paper, etc. That's very different from someone who has no degree at all. I'd wager most scholars wouldn't bother with checking a "massive manuscript" for someone with no academic credentials at all.

ffetcher
October 30th, 2008, 03:54 AM
I don't think that my degree has made much difference, other than getting me my first job and getting access to the manuscripts department at UC many years ago. Since then, my ability to do my first job got me the next, and the fact that I didn't destroy anything got (albeit grudging because I'm not a 'proper' academic) access to other places.

I don't recall anyone with whom I've discussed my research asking whether I have a degree and I'd guess that most know perfectly well that I have no formal credentials in their own field: with very very few exceptions people have just treated me with the same politeness they'd extend to their fellows. This has happened in circumstances varying from a chat in the bar after listening to papers on neuroscience to approaching someone to ask them to review something, or for permission to excerpt.

What probably has made a difference is the ability to write for length and to match a 'house style' that was drummed into me from about age fourteen to when I graduated. Whether commentating on pagan issues or in my day job, it's much easier to get into print if, when the editor comes back and says 'nice, but I need it 200 shorter', you can turn it around before the print deadline. Another thing is that despite sometimes being awfully tempted, I've never broken the terms of an NDA.

...but the degree - I really don't think it's made a great deal of difference.

blessings
ffetcher

MacMorrighan
November 1st, 2008, 03:14 PM
From this I conclude you don't have a degree, at least not in history.

Please don't dare to pressume about me.


Moreover, if you publish this I should think you'd want to at least acknowledge those professors who helped you. How is it you could mention their names in a published book but not the internet? Surely someone as cautious as yourself can understand that when somebody on the internet offers up anonymous universities and professors as his credentials we can't just take his word for it.

I'm not asking you to take me on faith re: the books I am working on; and those views you tend not to understand in my reviews are all cited fairly well. However, as for the Professors and other academics with whom I work, why would I want to give anyone the opportunity to contact them and impress upon them that it would be a mistake to aid me anymore? It's a perfectly acceptibl;e concern. Anyway, the issue here is NOT my MS.; it's my views re: history and the two reviews printed here. Again, it's not germane to this discussion thread.


...but what I find interesting is how you rail so mightily against dishonest scholars who lie to you, yet you're so resistant to someone applying the very same standard to you.

No, you're not aplyinmg those same standards to me, because I have not published anything, yet! And, those scholars have not lied only to me, but to anyone reading their books.


A professor simply has to look up your transcripts and verify your qualifications. Some goon on the web saying you have none will not stand in the face of that, so again you have nothing to fear.

This may be how it opperates where you live; but not here. Even a Professor would not be able to glean access to my transcripts unless I fill out a form for each person so-interested. Even at that each application form costs me a rather steep fee. That being said, it's otherwise illegal for anyone (other than myself) to acquire access to my transcripts (my former University actually made ther habitual mistake of giving my transcripts to a nosey Great Aunt whenever she'd call them up, requesting them!).


Source, please.

Just crack open her massive, and laughible tome: The Ultimate Book Of Shadows--it's there inn her Acknowledgements' section. Now, I've never been able tor ecommend her books; so, whenever I notice that she comes out with something else, I like to at the very least thumb through it to see what crap she's come up with with this time.


Notice how these two authors are historians. In other words, they have professional credentials, so other historians would be happy to help them.

Well, don't forget: *I* may re: them as historians (pedantry don't fly with me, bub!); but, you probably wouldn't. Neither, so far as I know, is an accredited historian, senso stricto. According to a friend of mine that knows Nigel very well, most historians (despite that his A History of Pagan Europe is FAR better than Hutton's Pagan Religions) regard him, at least, as an "amateur". Still, Hutton generally seems antagonistic towards freelance scholars, regarless of the factual basis of their arguments, such as Max Dashu (who was metriculated at Harvard Univ. thanks to a full scholarship) and Donald Frew.


So, what degree do you hold and what insitution awarded it to you?

Again, neither of these is germane to either this discussion, nor the factually-based merrit of my own MS. A MS or thesis should stand on its own merrits, not upon either one's degree or where they were educated (sadly, most Pagans cannot accept this).

ffetcher
November 2nd, 2008, 05:56 AM
earlier I posted:


It's also absolutely untrue that paganism had died out in Europe and the UK by the end of the sixth century. Hungary didn't espouse Christianity until 1001,I apologise. Those dates actually do correspond with what Hutton says in "Pagan Religions", as pointed out to me off-list. I won't quote the page numbers, which seem to vary by edition, but it's the beginning of the section "Legacy of Shadows" whilst he is building up his counter-argument to Murray's work.

I was simply going to post the above apology, but...

Having re-read the entire section to find the references, I still don't think that he's correct in being so forthright that paganism completely disappeared at that time, even in England. Describing various later practices he says "...they were the work of Christians who had detached them from any previous religious context." He cannot know what these people actually believed, yet he states this as outright fact.
In a similar case I encountered in the Tirol a few years ago, as late as the eighteenth century the (Catholic) church sanctioned 'local customs' as part of the church calendar. This is certainly true because it is recorded that a city priest assigned to a rural parish had to be replaced after trying to suppress said customs. Now it could be that the locals "had detached them from any previous religious context", but if so, why suppress them? The present-day locals certainly believe that although the church identified the practitioners as Christian, the practitioners themselves would have self-identified as something else.[1]
Having stated as fact that any continuation of practices that were originally pagan into the Christian period is actually Christian, he then goes on to address the continuation of assigning powers to trees in folklore "...may be an echo of their status in pre-Christian worship, or they may have been part of a magical tradition independent of the old cults", neglecting to mention that there is even an outside possibility that they indicate a survival of 'pagan' beliefs well into the Christian era.

Now having raised the thorny topic of magic, he has to justify a clear distinction between magic and religion. The first part of this section is actually a discussion of the differences he sees between English and Celtic magic, which he follows up with two examples, one classical and one modern folklore, which are simple to demolish. He finishes with "So, while both these examples could, with different degrees of likelihood, be described as possible 'relics of paganism', no positive assertion should be based on eiether. To repeat, no act of magic can be used to prove the continued existence of the old religions of the Britih Isles unless there is firm evidence that it involved a belief in those religions."

I think this is a case of 'appeal to authority',[2] and some fairly clever wording. Firstly, he's not 'repeating' his assertion, and he's stating the assertion as fact. Secondly, although I'm well aware that Hutton sees magic as something completely separate from religion and thus feels able to dismiss any evidence falling into that class, he completely fails to mention that there's another viewpoint espoused by other equally well-respected academics.

Consider what difference it would have made if the concluding sentence (the one lay readers will remember) was worded: "Whilst no act of magic can be used to prove the continued existence of the old religions of the British Isles unless there is firm evidence that it involved a belief in those religions, both these examples could, with different degrees of likelihood, be described as possible 'relics of paganism'."

I feel it important to note this, because he uses the argument from this section to add weight to his critique of Murray. It so happens that I mostly agree with his assessment of her work, but implying that "I can't find any evidence for Britain that I can't dismiss by my rules, therefore her work is fundamentally flawed" is a bit of a cheap shot for a tenured academic[3].

blessings
ffetcher

[1] sadly, despite using a native Viennese friend to help, I've been unable to find any written references, even in German. The second part of the tale should therefore be treated as unverified oral testimony: I had it from several sources including some in Salzburg, but that doesn't preclude a single origin. The first part is documented in the Salzburg seminary records for the period.

[2] this basic tactic is used, wittingly or unwittingly, by other authors on both sides of the pro- and anti- survivals argument. I've called other people on it, including Frew and Heselton, and will continue to do so, but this just caught my eye since I was already re-reading the section and it did seem pertinent to this discussion (if that's what it is).

[3] actually, he wasn't tenured when he wrote this, which may have affected some of his assessments of others' work. This is sufficiently commonplace that I'm not going to bother criticising Hutton for it.

Valnorran
November 3rd, 2008, 09:45 AM
Please don't dare to pressume about me.
Of course, if you'd just answer the question all presumptions would be undone. Come on, it's not like I'm asking for your social security number here.

However, as for the Professors and other academics with whom I work, why would I want to give anyone the opportunity to contact them and impress upon them that it would be a mistake to aid me anymore? It's a perfectly acceptibl;e concern.
If you hold a degree from an accreditted institution, it would pose no problem at all. And your fears can easily happen if you cite them in your work. So, are you planning to not cite them, thus taking credit for their contributions, or are you going to cite them and open them up for attack from conspirators on the internet?

Anyway, the issue here is NOT my MS.; it's my views re: history and the two reviews printed here. Again, it's not germane to this discussion thread.
You cited your manuscript as a credential, so it's a germane issue. And how can I possibly take a review of historical research seriously when that review is from someone who doesn't have the credentials those he'd reviewing has? This from a guy who asks others not to make presumptions.

And, those scholars have not lied only to me, but to anyone reading their books.
Ah. But passing yourself off as a scholar despite the total absence of scholarly credentials is perfectly honest. Right.

This may be how it opperates where you live; but not here. Even a Professor would not be able to glean access to my transcripts unless I fill out a form for each person so-interested. Even at that each application form costs me a rather steep fee. That being said, it's otherwise illegal for anyone (other than myself) to acquire access to my transcripts (my former University actually made ther habitual mistake of giving my transcripts to a nosey Great Aunt whenever she'd call them up, requesting them!).
Where do you go to school? For some reason you're every bit as reticent about this question as you are about what degree you hold. They charge you a steep fee for your own transcipts while handing them out to other people? They can't afford JSTOR? What is this place? Are you sure it's a university? The community college I work at has JSTOR, for heaven's sake.

Of course, if you held a degree you could dispense with the need for transcripts entirely.

Again, neither of these is germane to either this discussion, nor the factually-based merrit of my own MS.
It will be should that manuscript ever get published. Best to have all your ducks in a row before that happens. If you can't handle informal questions from a history student, what do you think will happen when actual professional historians review your work?

"Factually-based." That phrase is every bit as meaningless as saying a movie is "based on a true story."

A MS or thesis should stand on its own merrits, not upon either one's degree or where they were educated
In other words, you don't have a degree and you don't go to school.

(sadly, most Pagans cannot accept this).
Well, them and the academic community. Actually having credentials in order to be taken seriously - what were they thinking?

By this logic credentials shouldn't matter for any job. Mechanic, accountant, lawyer, doctor, architect - their degrees or certifications and where they got them should be totally irrelevent, right?

ffetcher
November 3rd, 2008, 10:58 AM
Well, them and the academic community. Actually having credentials in order to be taken seriously - what were they thinking?Some, and in my experience many, don't actually think that way. I'll quote Professor Hutton, in The Cauldron, from the debate between him and Jani Farrell-Roberts cited either on this thread or the other to which this increasingly personal debate has spread:
"Until the 1970s, most history was written outside universities, and written equally well. I believe firmly that people who are themselves practitioners of ritual magic and Cunning Craft are going to have insights into early modern witchcraft and magic that are impossible to those who are not, and that includes almost all academic experts.

---


"Philip Heselton has proved how much excellent research can be carried out by somebody operating outside of a university."
I think it might be fair to call Hutton an academic: in his opinion it's the work that matters, not anyone's credentials (or indeed access to JSTOR), and I tend to agree, which is why I revealed how thin my credentials are before starting out here. Matters may of course be different in the US, and I'd see that as a disadvantage although you're welcome to disagree.


I'm watching these two threads because the subject matter in the original posts interests me and I'd like to discuss it. If that ain't going to happen, just tell me and I'll take the watches off. I came home this afternoon after a blisteringly bad day to see that there was a new post. Stupidly I thought it might be a response to mine, so made a cup of tea and was looking forward to reading it, but it turns out that it was just more of the same sniping. Wake me up when something interesting happens.


blessings
ffetcher

MacMorrighan
November 3rd, 2008, 07:12 PM
You cited your manuscript as a credential, so it's a germane issue. And how can I possibly take a review of historical research seriously when that review is from someone who doesn't have the credentials those he'd reviewing has?

You take my critique and review to extremes that they were never intended to.

I have never made my MS. and subsequent research germane to this critique, senso stricto. Rather, I used it to further enforce a belief I now have, from several years of further research, pertaining to Eurasian pagan/shamanic belief-systems and seasonal calendars. I still stand by the fact that this review and critique can stand alone without any mention of my MS.--it [my MS.] was just sprinkles or whipped cream by comperison.


Ah. But passing yourself off as a scholar despite the total absence of scholarly credentials is perfectly honest.

That's a rather grand pressumption that deserves no discussion.


They charge you a steep fee for your own transcipts while handing them out to other people? They can't afford JSTOR? What is this place? Are you sure it's a university? The community college I work at has JSTOR, for heaven's sake.

Actually, only one far out-of-the-way University in my state has access to JSTR (I checked into this earlier this year); no Comm. College does, either (not even the one where I began my initial education before JSTOR was commonplace on-line).


Of course, if you held a degree you could dispense with the need for transcripts entirely.

Again, this is entirely a peripheral argument that is not germane to publishing (let alone WRITING accurate history!). Unlike many Professional scholars of note, I am unbiased, objective, and interested in intellectually honest history and research.


"Factually-based." That phrase is every bit as meaningless as saying a movie is "based on a true story."

Ahhh...apparently you don't seem--at least from this phrase--to be interested in honest history.


By this logic credentials shouldn't matter for any job. Mechanic, accountant, lawyer, doctor, architect - their degrees or certifications and where they got them should be totally irrelevent, right?

This is a superfluous Logical Fallacy. I strongly suggest that you verse yourself in them before engaging in forming your own arguments (should you come to that).

Again, you have hijacked this thread from its initial, and factually-based discussion pertaining to my Review and Critique of "Werewolves, WItches and Wandering Spirits".

Valnorran
November 4th, 2008, 10:23 AM
You take my critique and review to extremes that they were never intended to.

I have never made my MS. and subsequent research germane to this critique, senso stricto. Rather, I used it to further enforce a belief I now have, from several years of further research, pertaining to Eurasian pagan/shamanic belief-systems and seasonal calendars. I still stand by the fact that this review and critique can stand alone without any mention of my MS.--it [my MS.] was just sprinkles or whipped cream by comperison.
Fine. Forget the manuscript. What degree do you hold and what university do you attend?

That's a rather grand pressumption that deserves no discussion.
It's a conclusion based on your total refusal to name your scholarly credentials, a conclusion that is easily refuted.

Actually, only one far out-of-the-way University in my state has access to JSTR (I checked into this earlier this year); no Comm. College does, either (not even the one where I began my initial education before JSTOR was commonplace on-line).
None of which answers the question: what university do you attend?

Unlike many Professional scholars of note, I am unbiased, objective, and interested in intellectually honest history and research.
This statement alone tells me you're out of your league. No historian is totally objective or unbiased. The better ones know this, recognize their biases, and try to compensate for them. Even if you did somehow achieve a state of total objectivity, most of the sources you use won't. Historians work mostly with documents, documents that were written by people who were biased and unobjective, and their biases will work their way into what they write and record.

Ahhh...apparently you don't seem--at least from this phrase--to be interested in honest history.
Anybody can call their work fact-based, but how they define "fact-based" can vary enormously. Add that to your total refusal to name your credentials and your belief in your objectivity and, well, I'm guessing your idea of fact-based and my idea of fact-based are two very different things.

Again, you have hijacked this thread from its initial, and factually-based discussion pertaining to my Review and Critique of "Werewolves, WItches and Wandering Spirits".
All I did was ask for your credentials. Saying, "I got my degree in ___________ at the University of ___________," would've ended it right there. Instead, you have danced around and done everything except give a simple answer to a simple question, a simple, basic, standard question. The fact that you refuse to leads me to conclude you have no degree and you do not attend a university.