Linguistics in Ritual (or) "Why does Latin make my spell sound so cool?"

[BlackLili]

I'm opening this question to all you learned minds here at MW. Maybe then I won't feel so alone in my fixation.

For some folks, its colors, or candles, or smells, or gestures that help them focus their intent and desire in a spell. Everyone has something that helps them drop into the appropriate brain waves to build and release energy.

Does anyone else feel this way about using languages other than your native tongue in spells and ritual?

Linguistics is a subject dear to my heart, but long before I knew what a complex topic it was, I knew that I love how other languages sound to my ears. In high school, I took 5 years worth of French lessons in 4 years, and then took another 2 years of instruction while at University. I also taught myself the basics of Irish Gaelic in high school and took several years of instruction in Russian along with my French in college.

I have Latin and Gaelige both tattooed to my back, and am considering another tattoo in Sanskirt or Arabic.

To me, there are languages that have a certain resonance to them. It could be related to the aural resonance that Ceremonial Magicians talk about. I believe Crowley had theories about languages and certain words holding power in their tone and resonance, didn't he? I have to assume others have, as well.

To me, there is more malevolence in a hissed curse in Italian than in my mother tongue - but why is that?

I "un-translate" my foreign language spells and rituals and have tried them in English, and inevitably I end up feeling something lacking. Its distracting, the words don't have the same kick or oomph.

Has anyone else experienced this, with what languages if any specifically, and what are your thoughts?

[~Elise~]

While I like other languages, I would only use something like that for a personal ritual, not a group one.

for a group ritual...music and lighting is a great way to set mood and make things go smoother.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[watersprite]

Usually, it is because the "translated" versions lose their true meaning. Maybe it waters down your spell.
It is a VERY good thing to have many languages under your belt. Latin is a difficult language to learn. It is rarely taught any more. I have lost my Latin, but I think I might be able to exercise my brain by relearning it.

[~Elise~]

I'm with you, watersprite. I've lost my languages by not using them. I read French and Spanish now better than I speak them. I took Latin as well, but that was 30 years ago in HS. If I practiced I could probably get them back...I could understand a bit of Italian and Portguese, as well, but it was because they were all Romance languages and had the same base.

Elise

[BlackLili]

Part of the reason I love Latin and the other Romance languages is that they are so easy for me to understand, considering my background in languages.

But really, I mean, Di te traditore te maledico! just doesn't have the same vicious bite it has if I say, "Curse you, traitor!!!!" (At least, not to my ears.)

The Italian sounds menacing, like the words the Witch in my head says first. The English? It sounds like something The Tick would say in a comic.

http://images.tvrage.net/shows/7/6238.jpg

I agree with you on the topic of using alternate languages with group rituals though. I think the last time I tried that, it was high school and we used French and the 4 of us were all 5th year French students, and we still stumbled and ended up doing it in English. Blew the whole flow of the rite.

But then again, its been proven to me anyway over and over again that my magic(k) does NOT "play well with others." Perhaps for me, this is just another symptom of that?

Another odd note - when I was a little girl (meaning like, 4yo and younger) my mother relates how I used to "Latinbabble" when I played with my toy cooking pots and whatnot. Some of my first memories are of attempting rituals and spells - I cut up orange construction paper and tore it into pieces as a substitute for moss gathered at midnight when I was 5. She said that the root words I was using seemed to have a Latin sound, but they were still an infant's babbling. (We spent a lot of time in Catholic masses that still used the Latin, so its not so odd that I might imitate those sounds specifically.) I don't necessarily think that part means anything, but I do find it amusing. :thumbsup:

[RainInanna]

I suspect using an alternate language taps into the more creative side of your brain than the logical, which opens you up to more intuitive and spiritual feelings. At least, that's how it works for me. Same reason why I speak to the Ancient Egyptian Gods in their own language where possible, or read poetry and prayer.

[CzechWoods]

it is about sounds. how labguage sounds.

Kyrie Eleison (greek) Lord have mercy has its on special sound. saying it out loud already sets the mood

however, a skilled person, can always come up with by-pass in translations

as for groups, if you want to speak a language no-one understands, translate an dexplain before hand, in my example:

we will be singing Kyrie eleison. Kyrie, from House meaning the lord. Eleyson. have mercy with us, be mercifull. lets try it together Ky rie El eis on

all: Kyrie eleison.

you get me, dont you

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I speak in Obri , and Runic...Faery tongue , of my Tradition...

If I say...

"Seal Os - Mann Os Sdar An - Is Sdar - Torc An"

It sounds , and feels , much more potent , than...

"So Mote It Be"

Eventually , I shall again be doing ritual , with others , in the
language...been awhile , now...:thumbsup:

[Artiste-LiLi]

In my birth tradition there is some use of languages other than English (my heritage is Irish, Scottish, French, Welsh, German, English)...but then my birth tradition is an amalgamation of many cultures (Appalachian Mountain Tradition).

In my adoptive family tradition (New Orleans style VooDoo/HooDoo) there is quite a bit of "other language" use.....predominately French, Creole, Cajun. There are a few bits of Native American and some Latin here and there in it too.

I too love languages.....I am fluent in Latin (yes, in Latin; no, I don't know why, other than I just like it. lol), American Sign Language and with a bit of practice I could be fully fluent in French again in a short time. I have a few bits of German left from my childhood and I have some Spanish (used to be fluent...but desperately need work), Italian, Greek, Turkish, Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese..........not much..but enough to get by if need be..stuff like asking for a restroom, the airport, hotel, train station, menu and then be able to order from it, hello/goodbye, thank you and a few others...and of course...I have curse words and phrases in all of them. LOL! Why is it we learn all the bad words and phrases first and they stick with us the longest and best? lol

I like the alternate language use as I feel it makes me focus more strongly upon what I am saying/asking.

[cheddarsox]

I have a couple of theories about why you might feel this way.

Languages say the same thing, but differently. The general translation is the same, but each has their own spin on it, the roots the words come from, the other words they are related to, the idiom, the inflection. Those differences can add up to a lot, and a certain "spin" may feel just right for certain times.

Conditioning, in some cultures, certain languages are considered romantic, magical, harsh, lyrical, educated, etc, and we pick up on that. It may just be stuck in your mind that Latin is the language of magic or spiritual practice, maybe because it was considered so in your culture, or because the ancestors in your tradition used it that way.

Sound. I have a really neat book about how your name influences your personality due to the sound of it, and the facial experessions and voice tones it brings out in other people when they say your name. Those constant subtle influences will affect how you understand yourself. And that is true of all language, phrasing, some tonations make us grimace when we speak them, others make our faces and voice smooth and welcoming. So, you might be choosing to use the language that "sounds" and "feels" right for various work.
The same phrase may sound like a curse in one language and a blessing in another...at least to your ears, based on how you've been conditioned to react.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

The same phrase may sound like a curse in one language and a blessing in another...at least to your ears, based on how you've been conditioned to react.

Conditioning , or vibrational interface , Cheddarsox ?

Does our system find certain languages harmonic , or disharmonic ,
due to our operating frequencies , our personal tone , or song ?

"I sing the body electric"

[BlackLili]

I have a couple of theories about why you might feel this way.

Languages say the same thing, but differently. The general translation is the same, but each has their own spin on it, the roots the words come from, the other words they are related to, the idiom, the inflection. Those differences can add up to a lot, and a certain "spin" may feel just right for certain times.

Conditioning, in some cultures, certain languages are considered romantic, magical, harsh, lyrical, educated, etc, and we pick up on that. It may just be stuck in your mind that Latin is the language of magic or spiritual practice, maybe because it was considered so in your culture, or because the ancestors in your tradition used it that way.

Sound. I have a really neat book about how your name influences your personality due to the sound of it, and the facial experessions and voice tones it brings out in other people when they say your name. Those constant subtle influences will affect how you understand yourself. And that is true of all language, phrasing, some tonations make us grimace when we speak them, others make our faces and voice smooth and welcoming. So, you might be choosing to use the language that "sounds" and "feels" right for various work.
The same phrase may sound like a curse in one language and a blessing in another...at least to your ears, based on how you've been conditioned to react.
...I'm pretty sure the sound of my voice means "Bite my face" to animals. Srsly.

But the rest of what you said makes perfect sense. :thumbsup:

[Artiste-LiLi]

I have a couple of theories about why you might feel this way.

Languages say the same thing, but differently. The general translation is the same, but each has their own spin on it, the roots the words come from, the other words they are related to, the idiom, the inflection. Those differences can add up to a lot, and a certain "spin" may feel just right for certain times.

Conditioning, in some cultures, certain languages are considered romantic, magical, harsh, lyrical, educated, etc, and we pick up on that. It may just be stuck in your mind that Latin is the language of magic or spiritual practice, maybe because it was considered so in your culture, or because the ancestors in your tradition used it that way.

Sound. I have a really neat book about how your name influences your personality due to the sound of it, and the facial experessions and voice tones it brings out in other people when they say your name. Those constant subtle influences will affect how you understand yourself. And that is true of all language, phrasing, some tonations make us grimace when we speak them, others make our faces and voice smooth and welcoming. So, you might be choosing to use the language that "sounds" and "feels" right for various work.
The same phrase may sound like a curse in one language and a blessing in another...at least to your ears, based on how you've been conditioned to react.

And that is why I prefer the name "LiLi" (say "Lee-Lee" with a light French accent)...it makes your mouth feel as if it is smiling......well that and: 1) Its mah name, 2) I use a fair bit of French in one of my practices so it fits well with that, and 3) I have French heritage.

[Genocon]

For me, personally, using a different language is almost required if I want to be even comfortable in a ritual (and I don't really know any, so I... don't do rituals, lol). That's how wrong using English feels to me. It makes me feel incredibly awkward and uncomfortable.

[cheddarsox]

Conditioning , or vibrational interface , Cheddarsox ?

Does our system find certain languages harmonic , or disharmonic ,
due to our operating frequencies , our personal tone , or song ?

"I sing the body electric"

Probably hard wiring...like we all know what a growl means, or a laugh, or a moan of pleasure...so...vibrational interface!

funny how we get to the same place from different directions.

[Invidosa]

at least for me it comes down to two things.

1. resonance. liken it if you will to sounding the Elder Futhark. vibrational energy to empisize the intenet.

2. obscurity. there are times when i feel a spell needs to be couched or shrouded to protect it's content and intenet from being tainted, not to mention that some things are just not for others to know or comprehend. to this end i will sometimes use a privately designed language that my circle sisters and i have developed for work.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Probably hard wiring...like we all know what a growl means, or a laugh, or a moan of pleasure...so...vibrational interface!

funny how we get to the same place from different directions.

Hmmm...hard wiring , and vibrational interface...

Sounds like the territory of this gentleman...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

Of course there are other views , on universal language...

My point here , in this thread , would be...

"If we grow up speaking one , or more languages...is there
something which activates subconscious processes ,
when we speak in a language not commonly utilized
by us , in everyday life...especially a fluid , or guttural
vibratory language ?

Further...what part(s) of the brain would this involve ?

Are we dealing with the wholistic brain , or is this possible
effect more localized ?

Just some thoughts...:bigredgri

[cheddarsox]

Hmmm...hard wiring , and vibrational interface...

Sounds like the territory of this gentleman...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

Of course there are other views , on universal language...

My point here , in this thread , would be...

"If we grow up speaking one , or more languages...is there
something which activates subconscious processes ,
when we speak in a language not commonly utilized
by us , in everyday life...especially a fluid , or guttural
vibratory language ?

Further...what part(s) of the brain would this involve ?

Are we dealing with the wholistic brain , or is this possible
effect more localized ?

Just some thoughts...:bigredgri


I sometimes "speak in tongues". I know the gist of what I am saying , but there is no literal translation, if there were, I don't suppose the tongue would be neccessary. It is like my soul opening up and speaking it's deepest truths.

I have only ever done this since I began to practice my pantheist faith. I never belonged to any Christian church or organization that did this. So it's not something I learned somewhere from someone and carried over.

It's a very powerful experience, and I do it outloud, the vocalizations have something to do with it, to both hear and FEEL them coming out of my throat.

seems pertinent to the discussion.

if you don't know another language consciously, that needn't keep you from vocalizing in the one that best suits the situation! It's in you.

[picaboo]

Saying something in another language is a way of saying to your brain "hey, this isn't my normal day to day stuff. Pay attention, this is important". It's the same reason I don't wear jeans and a T-shirt to do any kind of witchy workings- it doesn't put me in the right place mentally. For me it has nothing to do with the sound of the words, it's all about my mental state, and when I'm not speaking English, it's harder to get distracted.

[Artiste-LiLi]

Saying something in another language is a way of saying to your brain "hey, this isn't my normal day to day stuff. Pay attention, this is important". It's the same reason I don't wear jeans and a T-shirt to do any kind of witchy workings- it doesn't put me in the right place mentally. For me it has nothing to do with the sound of the words, it's all about my mental state, and when I'm not speaking English, it's harder to get distracted.


Yep, that's why I said it helps me to focus better.

[elfmage]

I will occasionally write something in Latin, because I find it focuses my intent much better, though I think that this is only the case if you're really concentrating on accurate expression, rather than a Google-style rendering (the likes of which make me cringe).

I agree with what others have said, in many ways ritual language is a psychopomp, in the same manner as casting the circle or lighting a candle; it indicates to the subconscious a shift into sacred space.

ETA: Oh yeah, I also used to experience glossolalia as a child, but I'm pretty sure that was actually as a result of a form of childhood epilepsy. There're some interesting studies out there on the phenomenon, such as this one (http://neurocritic.blogspot.com/2006/11/glossolalia.html).

[ainecrea]

Saying something in another language is a way of saying to your brain "hey, this isn't my normal day to day stuff. Pay attention, this is important". It's the same reason I don't wear jeans and a T-shirt to do any kind of witchy workings- it doesn't put me in the right place mentally. For me it has nothing to do with the sound of the words, it's all about my mental state, and when I'm not speaking English, it's harder to get distracted.

I totally agree with that. When I use English in my rituals I feel embarrased almost, but if I'm doing it in another language I feel like I can put my whole soul into what I'm saying because I'm totally concentrating on speaking. I used English for every day things, magickal workings are just that, magickal and there should be different, non-everyday things used for them.

[Spectral_Harlequin]

I haven't, as of yet, done anything that I'd call a spell. But I do know that ancient languages make me feel closer to the origins of civilization, and in so doing make me also feel more in touch with the particular tradition depending on the language.

EDIT: *make a lot of these* I know I'm not meant to be here...I just wanted to give a different viewpoint on language in general...

~ S.A.

[Scott Hill]

I don't think there is anything wrong with using a non-native language for ritual. In fact, it can really enhance ritual. For one thing, a change from the language you speak in daily life signals that what you are doing is set apart from what you do in the mundane world. Also, I find that some languages resonate better with deities from the pantheons where they would be used; for instance, it can be very effective to address Odin in a Germanic language or Juno in a Latinate language or Baba Yaga in a Slavic language.

Also, some literary and phonetic devices have properties of their own that can be very useful to rituals. For instance, repetition of a phrase or word can focus your ritual on a specific goal or ideal. And alliteration can help enable a trance state - I find that open vowels and sibilants work quite well for this.

I've also found that meter can have a decided impact on poetry or chant that you write for your rituals. I'll give a couple of examples. Rhymed couplets can be used to exemplify the male and female aspects of deity, while also showing that these aspects are complimentary. Or terzets can evoke the triple aspects embodied by many gods and goddesses. A favorite of mine is to use tetrameter in five-line stanzas (or pentameter in four-line stanzas) in elemental poetry - this allows the rhythm to describe five elements arising from the presence of four.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

Blessings,
Scott H.

[Spectral_Harlequin]

"Also, I find that some languages resonate better with deities from the pantheons where they would be used"

Yeah...maybe I was a little ambiguous... When I said it depended on what kind of language, things like compatibility came to mind. It might be more respectful to the dieties you're working with to speak in their language. But, on the other hand, I don't see why something like language would keep a person from simply expressing feelings and energies to a particular god/goddess. It might be a very useful tool though.

I agree also with what you say about open vowels. In choir, I was/am taught that it is actually easier on the voice to sing open vowels and to avoid sustaining a note on a consonant. It's one of the reasons why Italian operas are preferable, at least that's what my soprano/alto choir teacher said. Singing "ahhh" instead of "a" as in "tractor" is much more pleasant. The same goes with singing the vowel 'i' as "eee" instead of "ih"...

~ S.A.

[Scott Hill]

So true. I grew up singing a lot of opera and art songs. High notes on tight vowels like closed "e" are tough! In magic, I find open vowels are better for raising energy and closed vowels are better for sending or honing energy. Ok, maybe a little off topic, but you had an interesting comment.

Blessings,
S.H.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I haven't, as of yet, done anything that I'd call a spell. But I do know that ancient languages make me feel closer to the origins of civilization, and in so doing make me also feel more in touch with the particular tradition depending on the language.

EDIT: *make a lot of these* I know I'm not meant to be here...I just wanted to give a different viewpoint on language in general...

~ S.A.

Highlighted your statement...

There are no rules regarding where you may be on MW...

Other than any boundaries set by administration...

Regardless...good observation above...

Primordial consciousness...subconscious programs , are
activated , by sonic resonance of a language...this is a
point held by my Tradition , at the least , though there
are a number which hold this belief...:uhhuhuh:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I don't think there is anything wrong with using a non-native language for ritual. In fact, it can really enhance ritual. For one thing, a change from the language you speak in daily life signals that what you are doing is set apart from what you do in the mundane world. Also, I find that some languages resonate better with deities from the pantheons where they would be used; for instance, it can be very effective to address Odin in a Germanic language or Juno in a Latinate language or Baba Yaga in a Slavic language.

Also, some literary and phonetic devices have properties of their own that can be very useful to rituals. For instance, repetition of a phrase or word can focus your ritual on a specific goal or ideal. And alliteration can help enable a trance state - I find that open vowels and sibilants work quite well for this.

I've also found that meter can have a decided impact on poetry or chant that you write for your rituals. I'll give a couple of examples. Rhymed couplets can be used to exemplify the male and female aspects of deity, while also showing that these aspects are complimentary. Or terzets can evoke the triple aspects embodied by many gods and goddesses. A favorite of mine is to use tetrameter in five-line stanzas (or pentameter in four-line stanzas) in elemental poetry - this allows the rhythm to describe five elements arising from the presence of four.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

Blessings,
Scott H.

Excellent post , Scott...and all great techniques...I utilize them almost all myself , though what I highlighted , is something new ,
I thank you for , and shall put into usage...:thumbsup:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

"Also, I find that some languages resonate better with deities from the pantheons where they would be used"

Yeah...maybe I was a little ambiguous... When I said it depended on what kind of language, things like compatibility came to mind. It might be more respectful to the dieties you're working with to speak in their language. But, on the other hand, I don't see why something like language would keep a person from simply expressing feelings and energies to a particular god/goddess. It might be a very useful tool though.

I agree also with what you say about open vowels. In choir, I was/am taught that it is actually easier on the voice to sing open vowels and to avoid sustaining a note on a consonant. It's one of the reasons why Italian operas are preferable, at least that's what my soprano/alto choir teacher said. Singing "ahhh" instead of "a" as in "tractor" is much more pleasant. The same goes with singing the vowel 'i' as "eee" instead of "ih"...

~ S.A.

Excellent as well , Spectral Harlequin...

Now , as far as what I highlighted...

Go to France...speak French...get better service...:uhhuhuh:

Apply to deities , or spirit realms...yet not only
language , but all qualities of voice come into play...:thumbsup:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

So true. I grew up singing a lot of opera and art songs. High notes on tight vowels like closed "e" are tough! In magic, I find open vowels are better for raising energy and closed vowels are better for sending or honing energy. Ok, maybe a little off topic, but you had an interesting comment.

Blessings,
S.H.

Agreed...good point...and not off topic !

[Dumunzi]

Language will not change the outcome or effect of rituals and spells.

However, it can get you into the mental state. This is part of the reason people cleanse themselves before ritual. The simple religious sense, in cleaning yourself off of things, and the sense of getting your gears oiled up and ready to go.

By all means if you find this is what it takes to get your Wiggy flowing, then speak in Latin!!

- Dumunzi

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Language will not change the outcome or effect of rituals and spells.


Language , and the qualities of voice affect consciousness...

Mind , affects matter , on subtle , at the least , levels...

Therefore...language , which affects consciousness , can
and I believe does change the effect of a spell...:uhhuhuh:

[Teresa]

To me its the feeling of the words that flow thru my mouth like weaving a tapestry to hang on the wall of life. I was always taught that pronunciation was very important with spell work, that it equaled the intent and desire as it helped with raising the energies. I am a bit rusty in some of the languages that I was taught growing up. Creole, French, Kituwah, Italian, and Latin used to be second nature for me to speak and understand. Now a days I speak much more Spanish in my daily mundane and I am learning it pretty easily because I can relate it to these other languages in some weird way.

I have always Loved Languages and felt that they were likened to music to my ears. Music is also something that I love and use for raising energies. I do not have a "ceremonial magician" background.

Perhaps Voudou may have taught me to revere the power of pronunciation. It is just like sacred rhythms and dance movements are all important parts of the whole.

When I chant I do find myself using those other languages at times depending on what my needs are. At this moment I am studying the Yoruban language and taking lessons.

Maybe one day I will be able to afford to go back to school and learn Russian, German, and some Middle East languages. I can hold my own with self taught sign language. Languages I guess, are a passion of mine.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

To me its the feeling of the words that flow thru my mouth like weaving a tapestry to hang on the wall of life. I was always taught that pronunciation was very important with spell work, that it equaled the intent and desire as it helped with raising the energies. I am a bit rusty in some of the languages that I was taught growing up. Creole, French, Kituwah, Italian, and Latin used to be second nature for me to speak and understand. Now a days I speak much more Spanish in my daily mundane and I am learning it pretty easily because I can relate it to these other languages in some weird way.

I have always Loved Languages and felt that they were likened to music to my ears. Music is also something that I love and use for raising energies. I do not have a "ceremonial magician" background.

Perhaps Voudou may have taught me to revere the power of pronunciation. It is just like sacred rhythms and dance movements are all important parts of the whole.

When I chant I do find myself using those other languages at times depending on what my needs are. At this moment I am studying the Yoruban language and taking lessons.

Maybe one day I will be able to afford to go back to school and learn Russian, German, and some Middle East languages. I can hold my own with self taught sign language. Languages I guess, are a passion of mine.

You are quite something , Lady Teresa...and you are one of the very few ,
on MW who has actually heard me speak , and chant Faery Tongue...
one day...I still would love to meet you...we might just
kick up quite a storm...:bigredgri

[Dumunzi]

You are quite something , Lady Teresa...and you are one of the very few ,
on MW who has actually heard me speak , and chant Faery Tongue...
one day...I still would love to meet you...we might just
kick up quite a storm...:bigredgri


Chant faery tongue? Is this like glossolia? O_o

[aluokaloo]

to me it doesn't really matter what language a spell is said in, which goes both ways. if latin works for you then it's all good!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Chant faery tongue? Is this like glossolia? O_o

Good question , Dumunzi...:uhhuhuh:

I know it to be the source of glossolia...

A true , underlying , language program , running the
associative cortices of the brain...now , admittedly ,
there are many here on MW , and elsewhere , who
have , do , or would disagree...

Yet , I have had many confirmations , from tribal elders ,
and some in "secret societies" , let alone a limited few clergy...

So...though I cannot , nor am I interested in , empirically
proving it , I know it , from my Tradition , to be true...

So...is it *like* glossolia ?

No...IMO , IMK , and IME , it *is* glossolia...:thumbsup:

[Dumunzi]

Good question , Dumunzi...:uhhuhuh:

I know it to be the source of glossolia...

A true , underlying , language program , running the
associative cortices of the brain...now , admittedly ,
there are many here on MW , and elsewhere , who
have , do , or would disagree...

Yet , I have had many confirmations , from tribal elders ,
and some in "secret societies" , let alone a limited few clergy...

So...though I cannot , nor am I interested in , empirically
proving it , I know it , from my Tradition , to be true...

So...is it *like* glossolia ?

No...IMO , IMK , and IME , it *is* glossolia...:thumbsup:



O_O

Kewl.

[Teresa]

Quite some time back " Whippersnapper" Beloved Niece, Shawn and I had a very interesting conversation about the vibrational pronunciations of words and the power there of. I was allowed to hear him speak the vibrational words over the phone. It was a very enlightening conversation in which some of my own personal thoughts were confirmed and I gained new insight on other things from that conversation. :thumbsup:

My feeling is that some words hold more power spoken in one language over different languages due to the vibrational tones as they are pronounced.

[BlackLili]

Quite some time back " Whippersnapper" Beloved Niece, Shawn and I had a very interesting conversation about the vibrational pronunciations of words and the power there of. I was allowed to hear him speak the vibrational words over the phone. It was a very enlightening conversation in which some of my own personal thoughts were confirmed and I gained new insight on other things from that conversation. :thumbsup:

My feeling is that some words hold more power spoken in one language over different languages due to the vibrational tones as they are pronounced.
Makes sense to me.

This thread, by and large, was to confirm my thoughts on the matter - which you've all done so thoroughly!

And to have a nifty thread to my name. ;)

[wyrdmage]

Connecting somewhere in many paths and religions is the idea that there is some all-encompassing language that when spoken, can create reality or things thereof in reality. I surmise that because language itself is such a vehicle of change in many cultures that it must indeed have some resonance value we cannot at present grasp in its entirety- that it manifests itself in thought and action and magic and ritual are brought about in an attempt to harness this potential. Everyday language therefore would not be as effective simply because we use in in such mediocre fashion. Protracted, altered or dead languages would take special study, special significance, and ultimately special focus. Perhaps also certain languages "sound" better to different people as the resonance more closely matches there own.

[ffetcher]

There's a difference between a (foreign) language making something sound cool, and the language adding something to the spell, ritual or whatever. Working in, say, Latin, because it can express something that's not available in your native language is one thing; working in a language you maybe don't understand so well, because it's 'cool' is something else entirely.

A few times in my life I've had to memorise something phonetically, one mundane case being when our school choir did a concert in Cardiff. Our material was in English, but here was no way round doing the Welsh national anthem, in Welsh. Th choirmaster, correctly supposing that the audience would drown us out, taught us the first two lines syllable by syllable, using deliberately ludicrous imagery so that we'd remember it. I now know the whole thing in Welsh, but I still have to dig my nails into the palm of my hand to stop myself irreverently bursting out laughing on those first two lines. I wouldn't want to risk that with a ritual that could fry my psyche.

A different effect was when one of my American friends sent me a scrying charm in Gaelic. When I translated it back into English, sure enough it was expressing stuff that's hard to do in English, and it clearly worked for her. Not for me, though, because it mixes two different forms of Gaelic and thus sounds pretty much like gibberish. I never dared point this out and I think the charm is now part of the coven's standard liturgy. I guess if it works... :)

blessings
ffetcher

[Scott Hill]

When I read over this thread before, I knew there was something I was forgetting to say, but wasn't sure what it was. Now I remember....

I think that, when language is either spoken or thought with intent in spells and rituals, it really helps to facilitate and direct the energy if it comes from the third chakra. Sometimes it can help to focus especially on that chakra and feel the words coming not just from the vocal chords, diaphragm, etc., but from that center of energy.

Blessings,
S.H.

[Scott Hill]

Ugh....


My bad....

That's only third if you count from the crown down - I mean the throat chakra.

S.H.

[HetHert]

There is nothing like an adoration to the gods when done in the tongue it was written.

It's Egyptian all the way for me. The ancient Egyptians believed heavily in hekau (words of power). And I subscribe to the belief that Egyptian words were formulas for invoking the power in the word itsself.

:thumbsup:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

In my Tradition's language , HetHert , there are two symbols ,
one above the other...

One has a letter value of "H"...the other is pronounced "Eck"...

( Letter value "A" )

( And in the same column of symbols is the "U" letter value )

The symbol for "H" , means spin , yet also wind , or breath...

The symbol , with the "Eck" pronunciation , means charge...

If we look at the word "Heka" , in Khem , it meant to instill
a type of charge...( magic )

"Eck" , also means ancestral memory...

Now , with the "U" , meaning added , we have strength , and
magnetism in the equation...

As charge , in our Tradition , is also electricity , we attain an
understanding of electromagnetism , and spin , or breath...

Here is a link , on Heka , for those who do not know of it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heka_(god)

Edit : The link did not work , when I just checked it...

But here is what I got when I googled the word , from Wikipedia ...hmmm...LOL...

In Egyptian mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_mythology), Heka (also spelt Hike) was the deification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism) of magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(paranormal)), his name being the Egyptian word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language) for magic. Heka literally means activating the Ka, which Egyptians thought was how magic worked, the Ka being an aspect of the soul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_soul) which embodied personality, but more significantly also power and influence, particularly in the case of the Ka of gods.
The hieroglyph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs) for his name featured a twist of flax within a pair of raised arms, however, it also vaguely resembles a pair of entwined snakes within someone's arms. Consequently, Heka was said to have battled and conquered two serpents, and was usually depicted as a man choking two entwined serpents. Medicine and doctors was thought to be a form of magic, and so Heka's priesthood performed these activities.
As the one who activates Ka, Heka was also said to be the son of Atum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum), the creator of things in general, or occasionally the son of Chnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chnum), who created specific individual Ba (another aspect of the soul). As the son of Chnum, his mother was said to be Menhit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhit)

[HetHert]

In my Tradition's language , HetHert , there are two symbols ,
one above the other...

One has a letter value of "H"...the other is pronounced "Eck"...

( Letter value "A" )

( And in the same column of symbols is the "U" letter value )

The symbol for "H" , means spin , yet also wind , or breath...

The symbol , with the "Eck" pronunciation , means charge...

If we look at the word "Heka" , in Khem , it meant to instill
a type of charge...( magic )

"Eck" , also means ancestral memory...

Now , with the "U" , meaning added , we have strength , and
magnetism in the equation...

As charge , in our Tradition , is also electricity , we attain an
understanding of electromagnetism , and spin , or breath...

Here is a link , on Heka , for those who do not know of it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heka_(god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heka_%28god))

Edit : The link did not work , when I just checked it...

But here is what I got when I googled the word , from Wikipedia ...hmmm...LOL...

In Egyptian mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_mythology), Heka (also spelt Hike) was the deification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism) of magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28paranormal%29), his name being the Egyptian word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language) for magic. Heka literally means activating the Ka, which Egyptians thought was how magic worked, the Ka being an aspect of the soul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_soul) which embodied personality, but more significantly also power and influence, particularly in the case of the Ka of gods.
The hieroglyph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs) for his name featured a twist of flax within a pair of raised arms, however, it also vaguely resembles a pair of entwined snakes within someone's arms. Consequently, Heka was said to have battled and conquered two serpents, and was usually depicted as a man choking two entwined serpents. Medicine and doctors was thought to be a form of magic, and so Heka's priesthood performed these activities.
As the one who activates Ka, Heka was also said to be the son of Atum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum), the creator of things in general, or occasionally the son of Chnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chnum), who created specific individual Ba (another aspect of the soul). As the son of Chnum, his mother was said to be Menhit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhit)

That's an awesome breakdown! Thanks for that! :thumbsup:

[Silvan]

It's an interesting topic. I've thought about this a lot. The "charm of making" from Excalibur is really Welsh, I think, but there's something weird and magical about saying something ordinary in an extraordinary language.

I theory, I'm all about using Latin or something even more obscure in ritual workings, but in practice, I've used Spanish a few times (not as romantic, but it's the only foreign tongue I've mastered to something getting quite close to true fluency) and English has always predominated. Just plain ol' ordinary 21st century modern American English too.

When the chips are down, I express myself in my mother tongue, because I'm really good at wielding my mother tongue. I'm a lot better at working in the medium of English than the vast majority of its speakers for sure.

I don't really know what it all means in the grand scheme of things. It's not nearly as romantic or cool as using a foreign language, or a conlang, but in the end, all languages are just a vehicle for expressing intent, and I can express intent with the most clarity and the least room for ambiguity using the tool I wield best.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Let's see if I can do this...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

And a second ritual chant...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Now , even in English , I "intone" , rather than just speak...

This is my "Comb And Mirror Chant" , I personally wrote...

( All Rights Reserved ) ... for all my chants...sorry...:uhhuhuh:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

One last one for now...

One saying well used in closing rituals...

In the Faery Tongue I use...

"Merry Meet , Merry Part , Merry Meet Again"

[~Audra~]

wow...awesome, shawn...could you translate the first two?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

wow...awesome, shawn...could you translate the first two?

The first part of the first one , I "spoke" more than I normally
do...that is , as we know it in our Tradition , the "original"
Cone of Power chant...sixteen sonics , blended...

Note , one sound , is "Sinasdar"...now known as "sinister" ,
or left hand...when we call the Cone up , from the earth , it
is similar to a screw coming out...to the left , it spins...

The second part of the first...is me saying "So Mote It Be"

"Seal Os , Mann Os Sdar An , Is Sdar , Torc An"

The second chant , is what we use , for among other things...

What we call the "Ashe" chant...for securing the gift of power ,
from the Spirit World , and Ancestors...:uhhuhuh:

[~Audra~]

the comb and mirror chant is quite beautiful...where does your inspiration come from? did it take a while to write it or did it come naturally...or was it a "gift"

[Shawn Blackwolf]

the comb and mirror chant is quite beautiful...where does your inspiration come from? did it take a while to write it or did it come naturally...or was it a "gift"

Well...

I am a natural poet...it is a blessed gift...and...I am Irish...:bigredgri

[~Audra~]

i noticed ;) genuine poets nowdays are few and far between...

where does one begin when learning and studying the language?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Give me a very short phrase...a few words , or short sentence...

We shall translate...letter by letter...English , back into the Old
Tongue...



i noticed ;) genuine poets nowdays are few and far between...

where does one begin when learning and studying the language?

[~Audra~]

Magic is afoot.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Magic is afoot.

Okay...interesting choice...

Here we go...

M = Mann

A = Eck / Och

G = Yar

I = Is

C = Kaen


I = Is

S = Seal


A = Eck / Och

F = Fayoh

O = Os

O = Os

T = Sdar

Thus :

Mann Och Yar Is Kaen , Is Seal , Eck Fayoh Os Os Sdar...

Let me say it for you...

[~Audra~]

cool...i think i see how it's done now...

how do you know whether or not to use "eck" or "och" for the letter "A"

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I am editing that voice file , Chthonic Rose...

It is Is Seal , not Is Sdar...

Here you go...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

cool...i think i see how it's done now...

how do you know whether or not to use "eck" or "och" for the letter "A"

First by "feeling"...

Then checked by Gematria , in the code system...

[~Audra~]

hmm...gematria? tell me all you know! lol, if you have time for me, of course... :fpraise:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

hmm...gematria? tell me all you know! lol, if you have time for me, of course... :fpraise:

There is a message waiting for you...that is for a different thread...

But...I will post this here...anyone is welcome to check my class
archives , to understand...

Mann = 109

Och = 95

Yar = 207

Is = 67

Kaen = 111


Is = 67

Seal = 131


Eck = 80

Fayoh = 162

Os = 130

Os = 130

Sdar = 265

+

It Will Be = 30

Magic = 39

Is = 310

Afoot = 230

In = 190

Runic = 283

= 2636

( For any who want to see how I check usage of words )