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MacMorrighan
October 28th, 2008, 04:27 PM
A History of Witchcraft: Sorcerers, Heretics, and Pagans, by J.B. Russell & Brooks Alexander (Second Edn.), Thames & Hudson, 2007.

Wade MacMorrighan [C, 1007-08]

J.B. Russell is Prof. of History at the University of California, Santa Barbara; and this present edition comprises a 1980 text that allegedly served as one of Ronald Hutton's primary consenting sources while writing his foundational polemics—now considered relatively obsolete by the nature of historical quantifications, due to "current" revelations (these subsequent texts are largely in the process of being superseded): The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy[1] [Blackwell, 1996] and The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft [Oxford University Press, 1999]. For what it's worth, Ronald Hutton set the stage (an act intimately fraught with peril when it seemingly sets the standard) and introduced Paganism as an academically respectful religion, thus removing it from the shelves of "New Age non-sense" at your local bookstore. However, many that are opposed to Wicca (specifically) and Paganism (in general) have deliberately pointed to Hutton's texts, empirically, as they sneer, "See, I told you so—it's a made-up, fake, religion!" Be that as it may, and despite Hutton's personal reservation to the contrary, his early work has set new standards of rigor in the present debate concerning the origins of contemporary Paganism and its likely antiquated genesis—even forcing us to raise our standards of evidence, and searching out those scholars which vastly disagree from across the pan-academic stage (particularly from Continental Europe). As an historiography I found this text to be only occassionally even-handed and generally objective as his personal bias is more than evident from the authors' tone; by stark contrast, however, Hutton's polemics should be tendered as extremist and atypical in presentation because Prof. Hutton often does not fairly adjudicate the current scholastic data on the subject with which his work is concerned.[2] As an example, consider that while Ronald Hutton entirely rejects any notion of the Celtic Cult of the Head as discerned by Prof. Anne Ross; Prof. Miranda Green, on the other hand, takes a far more objective middle-of-the-road approach, acknowledging it as a distinct plausibility rather than wholly rejecting it due to some perceived lack of empirically proof-positive evidence; “evidence”, I remind you, that the majority of Iron Age specialists tend to accept as convincing.

In this new publication—almost 30 years since its initial inception—Prof. Russell offers two new chapters concerned with contemporary Paganism written with his present collaborator (and evangelical Christian) Brooks Alexander,[3] as well as a new Introduction and concluding-chapter. However, much has also been omitted from the present edition, such as certain photographs (albeit seemingly “sensational”) that testify to the doctrine of British Traditional Witchcraft, and a fascinating copy of the “oath of secrecy” and vows propounded by the First Church of Wicca in the late 1970s. Even an entire chapter quite eloquently titled, “The Witches’ Religion” has also been omitted, along with many little-known photographs of “Old” Gerald B. Gardner and seemingly macabre British folk-spells involving thorns and a sheep’s heart. So, if this data fascinates you, it might prove worth your while to locate a second-hand copy of the first edn. from any number of second-hand book stores either on-line, or in your local area.

When I first cracked the spine of this text I immediately noticed some astonishing anomalies that troubled me, albeit there is also much to enjoy and mull-over in one's gray matter, as well. However, the latter is staunchly over-shadowed by his seeming lapse in discernment, and his apparent "ignorance" of recent evidence that's generally given only a token nod in the way of the authors' bibliography.

Russell occasionally behaves throughout each controversial treatise of this recent edition almost like a verbally or emotionally abusive loved one who tenderly says, after the fact, "I love you." For example, when writing of Charles Leland's investigation into an Italian witch-cult (Aradia, or The Gospel of the Witches [1899]), he pejoratively regards his methodology by denoting it as "research" within quotation marks replete with sarcasm. However, in the same breath he states that Leland's methods were the scholastic norm of his day. So, why criticize him so harshly and gratuitously at the onset? Like my initial analogy, this bears a rather disingenuous tone.[4] It is important to note that Charles Godfrey Leland was able to gain access into groups and cultures that his peers could not—a fact, and talent, that is frequently overlooked when he is maligned as the victim of duplicitous local inhabitants (a stance more than generally adopted by the present authors). Russell also implies that much of the Aradia MS. presented to Leland may have been written by his informant, Maddelena—I find this grossly unsatisfactory; for this to make any cognitive sense Maddelena would have had to have been a literary prodigy, which is extremely unlikely given her provincial and impoverished stature, as well as educational background. Moreover, these documents are possessed of a substance, just below the thin veneer of their documentable sources, that speak of an older tradition that simply does not fit the imaginings of an entire generation of skeptical (indeed, cynical) scholarship. Furthermore, we note that much of the Aradia material is presented in verse, which we know is a mnemonic device employed by cultures throughout antiquity as a means of preserving lore and local tradition.[5] However, perhaps this, and subsequent anomalies, ought to be forgiven as mere obsolete data that was never amended from the first edition of the present work.[6]

Some other minor, although no less misleading errors are peppered throughout this text, including a caption for a late fifteenth-century woodcut depicting perceived "witches" shape-shifting in an effort to transvex towards a Sabbat. However, he apparently conflates the generic term of "shape-shifting" with the specific denotation, "lycanthropy", which refers to the transmogrification of an individual into a wolf, hence the lycan- root (anyone who has seen the film Underworld will certainly be aware of this fact).[7] While, he subsequently relates that throughout Europe, by the twelfth-century, the entire Continent of Europe had been irrevocably converted to Christianity. This polemic is severely questionable—although, more worrying, it's extremist and simplistic to a fault; it has been advanced that antiquated paganism survived throughout large swaths of Europe easily as late as the eighteenth-century (though the twentieth-century is not entirely off the radar, due to suggestions from other scholars: the Saami nomads of Scandinavia are evidently still extent; and many of the Baltic deities enjoyed continued worship until the early 1920s!). Albeit the presentation Ronald Hutton relates below as a counter-point is also debatable (and proves to be mere opinion, for we note dozens of scholars that present the history of paganism far differently: the pagans actually fought hard for their endemic religions against the Christians to a late date; Hutton does not seem to allow for this), it serves to advance a case contrary to Russell's preferred position:

"During the late twentieth century it gradually became apparent that, all over Europe, the conversion of the rulers of a medieval state to Christianity was followed within a relatively short time by the formal acceptance of the new religion by their subjects. There is no evidence for the of the long-term persistence of paganism as a formal system of religion vanished from Mediterranean Europe after the sixth century, from the western and northern parts of the continent after the eleventh, and from the north-eastern portions after the fourteenth. Among the Saami nomads of Scandinavia, it may have lingered into the seventeenth" [Witches, Druids and King Arthur, 2003: 137].[8]

As a new edition to an antedated text from 1980 it is simply behind the times—at least behind the last decade of subsequent, and ground-breaking, research! Where's the foundational work of Phillip Hesselton, and even Doreen Valiente (more on that momentarily) or Donald Frew's counter-thesis, as well as Ronald Hutton's latest treatise that was briefly quoted above (even though Hutton's latest text is plagued with its own heinous problems, he seems to employ The Triumph of the Moon as a relative "cut-off date" if one is to judge from his bibliographed citations[)? Be that as it may, much recent research, despite remaining un-cited throughout the body of the text, is only given a token nod within the actual Bibliography. Similarly, I was astonished at this same discrepant lack throughout Margot Adler's recent up-date of her highly acclaimed occult classic, Drawing Down the Moon[10] [Penguin Books, 2006]. As a Gardnerian High Priestess, and scholar in her own right, she should have been blatantly aware of these recent paradigm-shifting revelations; neither did she attempt to defend her work from Prof. Hutton’s mitigation of her analysis of witchcraft-history regarding the mendacious tactics of the late Prof. Norman Cohn! As a result, I can only conclude that Russell's and Brook's recent edition has apparently been justified to one side of a polemic that it is presently being re-evaluated (indeed, it is in a process of collapse). Hence, this title does not show the same insight and current for-thought (in this regard) as his previous texts.[11]

Moreover, contemporary Pagans (and general lay-readers) that turn to polemics written by general historians (for polemics are all that seem to exist, these days) need to be taught how to use critical thinking skills to spot clearly unsubstantiated claims when they obstinately appear! While, scholars that make these blatant statements need to be publicly censured for it, rather than given a green light, "just because it's popular and endorsed" or "scholastic suicide" to reach a differing opinion without factually arguing for their case! All too often I see scholars relying not on the evidence, but the opinions of other scholars, because the matter has been (so they claim), “settled”. This is simply a cop-out, not to mention a perfect example of what is known as “special pleading” when a scholar does not often follow those same quantifiable rules of academic protocol that they impose onto others! Indeed, it is probably evidence as to how academia has become ruthlessly politicized within the past several decades. It has even come to my attention that some scholars—because they tend to ignore a lot of evidence—actually make a habit of mischaracterizing other arguments and scholars, as though those writings and scholars really state something contrary to what's actually in print (this is called a “straw man argument” in which an author or thesis is mischaracterized for the express purpose of being attacked).[12]

Another ailment that needs to be remedied is teaching folks how to spot personal opinion when it is advanced as established fact (Ronald Hutton happens to illustrate this remarkably in his book The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles[13]). As an example of this tactic, consider the following: Dr. Hutton states in his The Triumph of the Moon that nowhere throughout antiquity was any goddess worshipped as the source of geographical and human fecundity via the hierós gámos, or "sacred marriage" rite. This is opinion only—eminent Sumerologist, Samuel Noah Kramer comes to an entirely diametric and well-founded conclusion in his book, The Sumerians [University of Chicago Press, 1963]. Moreover, Prof. Rudolf Simek has found unequivocal evidence for this sustained ritual and belief within the Germanic pagan data that appears to advocate the presence of a larger European-wide phenomenon where the Earth (as female) is fertilized by the Sky (the rain identified as his semen); this was enacted physically by local tribesmen in religious rituals, particularly in the rites of Freyr [“Lord”].[14] Even Tacitus implies that the ancient Germans performed the hierós gámos ritual at the time of his writing. While, Prof. Emeritus Fellow (All Souls College, Oxford), Dr. M.L. West, detailed what a homogenous Indo-European religious motif the hierós gámos ultimately proves to be, as a “sacred marriage” between the sky-god and the earth-goddess.[15] Hence, I find that Hutton has not fairly adjudicated the relevant findings from the present academic world. This is a relatively grave example of sweeping over-generalizations that simply proves to be unfounded when the appropriate data is examined in any detail. As a result, I must find that Hutton’s position can only be maintained if one were ignorant of both the necessary hagiographic data and primary source-material.

In the initial edition of this text from 1980, Russell admonishes the existence of "Old" Dorothy Clutterback as a figment of Gerald Gardner's fertile imagination. Incensed by this unfounded accusation, Doreen Valiente (my personal hero) published an account (in Janet & Stewart Farrar's The Witches' Way [1984]) in which she located the marriage- and death-certificate of "Old Dorothy", thus proving her existence! These current revelations in consideration, Prof. Russell has made no attempt to rescind his earlier declamation; rather, "Old Dorothy" is merely portrayed as a leading figure in Gardner's personal assertions (here presented as mythical), with no mention pertaining to her factual existence. This is ultimately misleading, I fear.

Missing also is the ground-breaking work of Professors Carlo Ginzburg (Italy), Éva Pócs (Hungary), Emma Wilby (Britain), Phillipe Walter (France), Wolf Dieter-Storl (Germany), Giuseppe Bonomo (Italy), Bengt Ankarloo (Sweden), Gustav Henningsen (Sweden), Claudia Müller-Ebeling (Germany), Tekla Dömötor (Hungary), Gábor Klaniczay (Hungary), Christian Rätsch (Germany), Katheryn A. Edwards (USA), David Lederer (Ireland), Carmen Blacker (Britain), Gail Kligman (Romania), Claude Lecauteux (France) and an army of other note-worthy scholars with works translated into English. The latter, for what it's worth, is Prof. of Medieval Society, Civilization and Literature at the world-famous academic institution, The Sorbonne (Paris, France). Academia throughout Continental Europe has reached the generally agreed upon academic consensus that at the heart of medieval witchcraft-belief is endemic Indo-European and possibly Eurasian "shamanistic" antecedents to one extent or another that definitely support certain variants of the Murray thesis—a thesis that needs up-dating because she lacked a shamanic language with which to refine her arguments; albeit some of her assertions certainly were incorrect [eg. Jeanne d'Arc]. Anything less, in the words of Emma Wilby, "is untenable". But Russell follows in the footsteps of Ronald Hutton throughout this present edition by failing to acknowledge this unequivocal body of European scholarship. This failure, or relative ignorance, appears during Russell's historiographic account of the four most prominent "interpretations of European witchcraft [that] are current" (though, I'm sure he is referring only to the US and England!). Éva Pócs, for example, drew upon a sample of more than 2,000 witch-trials (by far the largest study to date) and found that medieval witchcraft-belief, and those reported traditions, turned out to be inseparable from local shamanic traditions. Unfortunately, a minority of British general-historians have gone to rather severe lengths to mitigate the enduring contributions of Prof. Pócs, and the wealth of European academia.[16] However, had it not been for her, a great many witchcraft-trial documents would not have been translated into the English language for the explicit use of scholars world-wide!

Pope John Paul II eloquently reminds us that, “in a world without truth, freedom loses its foundations and man is exposed to the violence of passion and to manipulation, both open and hidden”.[17] As a result, I can only describe the constant absence of these major contending-theories from Continental Europe throughout general works by leading American and British scholars on the subject of witchcraft-history as "a conspiracy of silence", perhaps even as a desire for "academic subjugation" (a monopoly, if you will, for they tend to regard this subject-matter as their respective “turf”)![18] If you would like to read some important questions concerned with modern Pagan research, as well as some equally important counter-arguments, please navigate the following well thought-out website.[19] Furthermore, Prof. Carlo Ginzburg is generally mitigated by British academia for his own contributions. It was throughout a subsequent polemic by both J.B. Russell and the late Norman Cohn,[20] where these historians blatantly mischaracterized his astounding work! Be that as it may, one might reasonably argue that such a blatant absence as these presently discussed "values" in the equation of medieval witchcraft-studies is a form of "thought reformation" on behalf of the academic "ruling élite". It should be understood that this will be perpetuated, generation after generation, by scholars and imposed onto the next generation of researchers if they hope to acquire a degree, or to even pass their courses and get published! Ivy League Universities are not even excused from such unscrupulous behavior: as late as the 1970s one was actually rebuked for questioning the status quo, regardless of one’s substantive evidence—they would have been failed, and were told not to question matters that were deemed "settled".[21] This politicization is something worth dear consideration by every reader of academia and subsequent research!

However, Russell (at least in this present text) wisely shows more sensitivity towards the Murray thesis than is usually allowed in academic circles, and distances himself from those that claim it has collapsed entirely with all its plausible variants (a stance for which he was actually rebuked by Norman Cohn at one point); such an unyielding position levied against Murray's work is bunk, pure and simple, for more well-grounded authorities have shown a disdain towards these extremist positions. Hence, it is worth bearing in mind what historian Peter Kingsley once (wisely) said, "Academically, doubt is a virtue. It is wise to be cautious, virtuous to allow for different points of view. The problem arises when this attitude hardens: then doubting becomes a certainty in itself, and we forget the importance of doubting our doubt." (Ah, how soon we forget the contributions of our predecessors, ‘eh?)

As a result, another quibble is that Russell generally endorses, without qualification, the ruthless work of Norman Cohn, who has been thoroughly debunked. His often cited (obsolete) text is usually referred to as that which has "closed the door" on the debate surrounding the Murray thesis.[22] But, is this an accurate appraisal of Cohn's polemic? The late Prof. Cohn, for what it's worth, was extremist and unprofessional in his mendacious pedantry (albeit I use the latter term loosely, because he played fast and loose with precepts of academic protocol). In his polemic, Europe's Inner Demons: The Demonization of Chrstians in Medieval Christendom [University of Chicago Press, 1974], it has been proven[23] that Cohn presented demonstrably false statements about Margaret Murray by simply comparing his allegations alongside what she actually wrote[24] (one would reasonably assume that a scholar, clearly as passionate as he, should have been aware of the differential source-material documented in The Witch-Cult in Western Europe [Oxford University Press, 1921] and The God of the Witches [Oxford University Press, 1981], rather than seeking to knock down his own “straw man” argument!). His conclusions scholars love to talk-up; however, the evidence in question usually gets swept beneath the proverbial "rug". Why? Because one might not believe them, otherwise—that's why! When this is taken into account with his earlier mischaracterization of Carlo Ginzburg (a model tragically followed by a slew of American and British scholars, including Ronald Hutton in his Triumph of the Moon and an article published through the British journal, Folklore)[25] a pattern of behavior begins to emerge that must not go unrecognized! Cohn also portrays blatant ageist and sexist tactics—discriminatory as they are—as a means through which he may entirely disregard a scholar, thesis, or otherwise incontrovertible evidence. He complains that Murray had the audacity to write anything on the subject of witchcraft-history "because she was nearly sixty". While he dismisses entirely uncoerced testimony of several women who freely admitted that they traveled to the Sabbat (generations before the Inquisition was anywhere near its apex) of being senile old women, because he couldn’t be bothered with the facts that question his personal arguments. In so doing, he apparently takes a page directly from The Canon Episcopi that fully denounced such accounts as delusional. This relatively harsh criticism probably arises from Cohn's post-WWII sympathy towards the Holocaust victims and its survivors (being, himself, of Jewish heritage), which he believed to be the result of irrational Nazi fears (for which there is ample suggestion). However, at the time of writing his “classic study” (as Prof. Hutton describes it as late as 2003), Gardnerianism was greatly expanding and making headlines (Murray even wrote the Introduction to Gerald Gardner's moving testament, Witchcraft Today [Citadel, 2004]), and Cohn simply saw it as another form of "the irrational" (a concept he viewed as proto-Nazi) or a superstitious cult (to which he was deeply opposed as a Rationalist). Indeed, he probably viewed it as his duty to prove its claims an impossibility, without which, it would become (he hoped) impotent and not pose any psycho-sociological harm to relevant Western culture. No matter how one slices it, his work constitutes a classic example of “special pleading” and a “straw man argument” (as if the ends somehow justify the means).[26]

As an aside, it is worth noting that Ronald Hutton ruthlessly chastised Margot Adler's account of Norman Cohn in his Pagan Religions, dismissing her appraisal as "fleeting" and "quite inadequate", despite the fact that Adler's presentation of Cohn's main thesis and characterizations went well over three pages in length, alongside numerous contending theorems centered upon the "Great Witch Hunt". Given Hutton's rather petty dismissal, one must wonder why Alder did not defend her position against Hutton when the new (and present) edition of Drawing Down the Moon was released in 2006? Rather, she seemed to bow and scrape at every mention of Prof. Hutton throughout this relative up-date (of course, this is how it appeared to me when I read the new edn. of her book).

However, it is important to point out that Mr. Russell diverges from Hutton on some relatively key issues. For example, while Russell (in the present work, and his earlier monograph The Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Primitive Christianity [Cornell University Press, 1977]) fervently acknowledges that the medieval iconography of the Devil directly stems from known images of Pagan gods, such as Pan. Ronald Hutton, on the other hand (in Triumph of the Moon), rejects such assertions as rubbish for which there is no "evidence" (a firm thesis he would like us to believe), or otherwise no academic literature on the topic has been sufficiently published (though he does not seem to cite Russell as an immediate antithesis to his sweeping generalization when it doesn't seem to suit his preferred agenda). If one has only read Hutton's texts on any given subject, of course he would present an iron-clad argument; but it must be taken into consideration that there is a relative corpus of academia that does—and should—disagree with his (often "narrowly-informed") assumptions.

I say "narrowly-informed", not as a term of abuse, but as a point of fact. In a response Hutton wrote to Asphodel P. Long's analysis of his text The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles (consult footnote #12), he acknowledged that he didn't know enough about the subject before he wrote his infamous book and has been yearning to re-write it for several years; but the publisher will not tender it “out of print” until we (Pagans) cease purchasing it! However, it has recently been brought to my attention by an Alexandrian High Priest from New Zealand (upon checking Hutton's sources), that Ronald has been mendaciously mischaracterizing scholars throughout his presentation of The Triumph of the Moon—it turns out that many of those scholars (at least those published in languages in which my New Zealand informant is fluent) that Hutton claims agree with him (particularly in that there was never any whiff of Pagan survivalism), in reality, staunchly disagree with him (or are not nearly so extremist as he), and directly present evidence to counter Hutton's personal beliefs.[27] So, one must wonder, of course, why he has not been censured for this; or at least why scholars familiar with these cited works have not flooded peer-reviewed Journals and stated that he has not been honest with his readers? Perhaps it was because Paganism was simply not (yet) considered intellectually, or academically, respectable at the time in which The Triumph of the Moon was first published. Be that as it may, Ronald's views are to be regarded as extreme and atypical when compared to the wider breadth of scholarship written on the subject of Paganism and witchcraft. Furthermore, it's a shame that most modern readers do not know what Prof. Morton Smith knew (how liberating it would, otherwise, be), that "...many scholars reject on principle all conjecture except their own" [emphasis mine].

As a new edition (even lavishly illustrated with re-prints and brilliant photographs!), I personally found it to be an inadequate up-date, albeit somewhat even-handed; it was lacking in current revelations and leading research—essentially it was a drastically missed opportunity to present an up-dated historiography concerned with the present revelations regarding the history of Gardnerianism and medieval witchcraft-beliefs. Indeed, this text brings to mind a well-known quote by Upton Sinclair (as do all glib "professional" Historians, for that matter, who lack the courage to see the forest for the trees in their zealous denial): "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Sadly, and to reiterate, there is a double-standard enshrined within academia with which I am phenomenally uncomfortable (for obvious reasons)! Be that as it may, this book still remains a text every Witch ought to posses on his or her personal library shelf (even if you have come to your own conclusions based upon recent evidence and research). However, as I plow my way through this text, I continue to find more to love and recommend within it, such as his fascinating presentation regarding the etymology of the word "witch"—it bears distinct magico-religious denotations, despite the alternative pleas of certain scholars, as well as Pagans! Or the truly ubiquitous nature of the diabolical witch-figure belief throughout antiquity—scholars can apparently reach no firm conclusions about how to best quantify these reoccurring leitmotivs.[28] Unfortunately, regardless that a respective text wisely denotes itself as "A History..." lay-readers and Pagans alike, somehow, seem to intuitively respond as though it actually reads "The History" (assuming the definitive article), simply because it was written by someone with a Ph.D.—a grievous mistake! I hope, one day, to see it remedied; but until then, I must be content to express the leanings of another academic consensus of surpassing weight.

Moreover, this book may ultimately prove to be a valuable stepping-stone in the current debate between differential Traditions of Witches, especially between those Witches that tend to bemoan, “not all Witches are Pagan”! They may find it quite liberating to note Prof. Russell’s functional distinction between the religious and non-religious Witch (or magical practitioner). The latter he brilliantly differentiates from the former by denoting this figure (in anthropological terms) as a “Sorcerer” or “Sorceress”![29] I just hope that such individuals do not attempt to invoke—or “boss around”—the gods when performing their seemingly atheist-centered magic, regarding them as little-more than a mere “correspondence”! Not only would many Witches (including myself) tender it blatantly offensive, but I wouldn’t wish to be in their shoes for anything in this world! For example, tomes abound with love spells gone awry; if one were to invoke Aphrodite in such a spell as a mere “correspondence” (even if they don’t believe in Her), She might ensure that the offending “Witch” would never get laid again!

1 The Suppressed Histories Archive. Dashú, Max [1998]. “A Review of Ronald Hutton’s The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles”: http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/hutton_review.html [Last Accessed: 14 March, 2007]. This is an important critical analysis of Hutton’s early work that acknowledges numerous factual discrepancies and other troubling anomalies.

2 This is all the more concerning when one takes into account that Prof. JB Russell can remain somewhat honest and objective despite the fact that he is an avowed evangelical Christian, while Prof. Ronald Hutton was raised Pagan by his mother and was subsequently initiated into the Gardnerian Priesthood sometime prior to the mid-1990s (in private correspondence he acknowledged that this contemporary Pagan Tradition exemplified a faith that he was already familiar with under his mother’s tutelage); yet Prof. Hutton presents an extremist and atypical view of the data and current research to his impressionable readership.

3 Author of Witchcraft Goes Mainstream: Uncovering its Alarming Impact on You and Your Family [Harvest House Publishers, 2004], and Founder of the Spiritual Counterfeits Project: http://www.scp-inc.org/ckbody.php [Last Accessed: 12 March, 2008], a website propounding anti-Pagan Christian propaganda.

4 Sadly, this is a tactic that has diffused through the ranks of academia, from one generation to the next.

5 Scholars label this orature (orally preserved data, such as folk-songs or mythology), and have found that it is far more capable of retaining information accurately (spanning hundreds of years) than traditionally written documentation to the consternation of General Historians, because their primary bias—their training—tells them something quite the opposite!

6 It is also interesting to note that eminent micro-Historian, Prof. Carlo Ginzburg, has found some relatively substantive evidence whereby the apparently ethnographic account disclosed in the Aradia material is analogous to a local Italian, shamanic, fertility witch-cult known as the Benandanti [“do-gooders”]; furthermore, it is believed that they claim a larger Indo-European shamanic antecedant.

7 A belief in werewolves is a common folk-belief of pagan antiquity throughout Europe and the British Isles. Consult: Werewolves, Witches and Wandering Spirits, ed. by Prof. Katheryn A. Edwards [Truman State University Press, 2002] and Witches, Werewolves and Fairies: Shapeshifters and Astral-Doubles in the Middle Ages, by Prof. Claude Lecouteux .

8 This is a misleading polemic on several grounds: 1.) This statement represents a personal opinion, rather than an actual “argument”, let alone a [I]fact (implying that we must accept him at his word), which subsumes that something that Prof. Hutton does agree with “gradually became apparent”, while “there is no evidence” for something that he does not personally agree with, which makes this passage far worse than the most biased American puff-journalism; 2.) Despite his personal allegations (for which he has shifted the burden of proof and offered not one shred of substantive data for his cause) it has been proven by numerous Historians that Paganism survived long after the ruling élite “officially” adopted Christianity, which was usually only very superficial and politically motivated in order to achieve an alliance with the powerful Roman Catholic Church, while officially recognized Paganism frequently overthrew and banished Christianity and missionaries from their home-countries, Pagan rulers also succeeded the "Christian" the throne according to the Historical Record—but, even after Christianity was meaningfully adopted, and “officially” took hold, Popular Paganism thrived among the peasants [see, for example, the incontrovertible work of Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, A History of Pagan Europe]; and 3.) While Prof. Hutton is aware of the work of G. W. Bowersock—even citing his important text, Hellenism in Late Antiquity [The University of Michigan Press, 1990], within this most recent abd important text—he willfully ignores Prof. Bowersock’s premiere chapter, “Paganism and Greek Culture”, that proves, unequivocally, that Paganism survived throughout the Mediterranean long exceeding the sixth-century, at which point it can hardly be suggested that Paganism was even on the wane! This is a Logical Fallacy (that most scholars, now, disavow) known as "Observational Selectivity". I am personally disgusted when I find that an author is guarding evidence from me, and purposefully disieving one's readership, as a consequence.

9 I have noted similar discrepancies in academic work since the publication of Prof. Ronald Hutton’s The Triumph of the Moon: cf. Leo Ruickbie’s Witchcraft Out of the Shadows: A Complete History [Robert Hale, 2004].

10 I clearly remember reading this book, with fondness, during High School after hours at our community Library!

11 As an example, consult his book, The Devil: Perceptions of Evil from Antiquity to Primitive Christianity [Cornell University Press, 1977] for an example of far more superior historical insights and more balanced conclusions.

12 These mendacious academic élites can't be bothered with the data that questions their opinion; after all, they've made up their collective mind! This arises from blatant cynicism, rather than mere “skepticism”, which can be tempered (two entirely different quantifiable animals). Some victims of “straw man” arguments include (but are not limited to): Professors Marija Gimbutas, Carlo Ginzburg, and Margaret Alice Murray.

13 Long, Asphodel Pauline. Wood and Water [Summer 1992], 39, “A Review of: The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy”: http://asphodel-long.com/html/pagan_religions.html [Last Accessed: 14 March, 2007].

14 Simek, Rudolf [trans. Angela Hall, 1984/1993]. Dictionary of Northern Mythology. Boydell & Brewer: Suffolk, UK.

15 West, M. L. [2007]. Indo-European Poetry and Myth. Oxford University Press: New York, NY.

16 It quite probable that Hutton is glibly dismissive of such a thesis, as will be seen (consult the article in footnote 21), because Norman Cohn (a polemicist Hutton uncritically endorses to this day) has rejected all such conclusions as resulting from the psychedelic 1960s in America and abroad; an allegation with which he attacked anthropologist, Michael Harner, Ph. D. Cohn posits, rather unsuccessfully, that such a thesis is determinant upon this modern data to such an extent that scholars would not have been inclined to reach this conclusion if such a cultural epoch as the psychedelic ‘60s had never occurred; but it must be remembered that Prof. Cohn’s presumptuous hypothesis attempts to shift the burden of proof.

17 Pope John Paul II [1991]. Centesimus Annus.

18 I don't know about you, but I certainly don't like feeling as though I’m being lied to, as though the ends somehow justify the means!

19 Pagan History. http://www.egregores.org [Last Accessed: 14 March, 2007].

20 According to Prof. Ginzburg in the English preface to his important study, I Benandanti [1966].

21 La Monte, Willow (2000). “Max Dashú: The Matrix Societies, Early Origins of the Witch Persecutions, the Suppressed Histories Archive, and Worldwide Goddess Veneration”, Goddessing: An International Journal of Goddess Expression [Winter/Spring, 2004-5], issue #19, pp. 14-20. Max Dashú is a Harvard-educated freelance scholar who attained a full scholarship to this Ivy League University where she studied history, linguistics, and anthropology, etc. But, she subsequently left after experiencing the oppressive and tyrannical academic atmosphere that would not allow any conflicting theories and evidence to break the cognitive surface nor appear within personal research projects if one valued their grades!

22 Prof. Ronald Hutton, in his Witches, Druids, and King Arthur, continues to hail it as “a classic” on the subject, to this day!

23 Farrel-Roberts, Janine. “Margaret Murray and the Distinguished Professor Hutton”, The Cauldron [2002-3]: http://www.vaccines.plus.com/Murray%20and%20the%20Professor.html [Last Accessed: 14 March, 2007]. Cohn’s text is continuously hailed as “a classic in the subject” [consult Ronald Hutton’s Witches, Druids, and King Arthur (Hambledon & London, 2003) for this endorsement]. But, as time passes, it is becoming more and more unreliable; in fact, it’s obsolete by today’s standards! As an example, Historian, Anne Llewelyn Barstow (1994) reported that, despite Cohn’s conclusions to the contrary, there were individuals persecuted for witchcraft in Orthodox areas of continental Europe, citing Russian and German scholars [Witchcraze: A New History of the European Witch Hunts, Harper SanFrancisco: pp. 202n.24].

24 In my personal experience, a great many Pagans are so cynical and unyielding that they sit atop their laurels as they blatantly refuse to so much as question Cohn’s treatment of Murray, let alone perform any actual footwork and compare his allegations with her own writings.

25 Please consult Prof. Ronald Hutton’s ad hominem vitriol, “Paganism and Polemic: The Debate Over the Origins of Modern Pagan Witchcraft” in Folklore [April, 2000]: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_1_111/ai_62685559 [Last Accessed: 14 March, 2007].

26 This is tendered as an unacceptable polemic where one invents a counter-argument by misrepresenting other scholars or ideals for the express purpose of attacking an alternative thesis.

27 The vast majority of them conclude that there was, in fact, Pagan survivals throughout Europe and the British Isles regardless of its superficial Christianization. Moreover, a far more forceful argument can be proposed when Indo-European Studies are analogously brought to bear on the extensive folk-traditions that still color the Isles and Continental Europe [consult: ML West’s formidable study Indo-European Poetry and Myth (Oxford University Press, 2007)]. One brief example consists of a chief discrepancy when Prof. Hutton, compared with Keith Thomas’ primary consenting source, refuses to acknowledge the existence of any evidence pertaining to the worship of the gods of the planets during the Middle Ages [cf. Keith Thomas’ Religion and the Decline of Magic: Studies in Popular Belief in Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century England (Oxford University Press, 1971)].

28 Though, based upon the European data the ubiquitous nature of the witch-figure is believed to have arisen, in part, from early shamanic fertility battles!

29 This term comes to us from the Vulgar Latin noun *sortiarius, which means “one who influences fate or fortune”, and from the Latin noun sors, “lot, fate, or fortune”. It was established in its modern form by the early forteenth-century.

Simply Puzzled
October 28th, 2008, 04:43 PM
wow

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 28th, 2008, 08:29 PM
This post is, in a nutshell, retarded. The pseudo-academic tone in which you write, Wade, is pathetic. I'm beginning to think that 'mendacious' is the only large word you know. And your endless ad-hominem attacks on Mr Hutton and Cohn begin to pall on me and, I'm sure, anyone else who bothered to read through that insane wall of text.

I'm also still waiting for your apology for the incredibly awful accusations you leveled against me in your last thread. Or was the fact that Valnorran and I were tearing you to shreds too much to bear? Oh, and we'd all love to know what your vaunted degree is in.

MacMorrighan
October 28th, 2008, 09:39 PM
This post is, in a nutshell, retarded. The pseudo-academic tone in which you write, Wade, is pathetic. I'm beginning to think that 'mendacious' is the only large word you know. And your endless ad-hominem attacks on Mr Hutton and Cohn begin to pall on me and, I'm sure, anyone else who bothered to read through that insane wall of text.

I'm also still waiting for your apology for the incredibly awful accusations you leveled against me in your last thread. Or was the fact that Valnorran and I were tearing you to shreds too much to bear? Oh, and we'd all love to know what your vaunted degree is in.

How dare you make such offensive ans impudent accusations about me! It is apparent that you are incapable of engaging in a factually-based discussion. Also, if you knew the definition of the term ad hominem, you wouldn't have used it. An ad hominem attack (which means "to the man") is if I charged you, or Hutton, must not be believed because you have blue eyes or brown hair, for example. All that I have charged Hutton and Cohn with, etc. have been to do with simple factually-based arguments (they frequently engage in known Logical Fallacies). If you think I am wrong--and I have levied this charge at you before--than PROVE ME WRONG! So far, you haven't. This, of course, leads me to believe that you are incapable of doing so.

And, the notion that you or Valnorran have "torn me to shreads" is the most laughable thing that I've ever heard; in fact, it's offensive to my intellect (as well as every reasonable individual, here)! Let's please dispence with such pseudo-logic as what is being crually thrown in the direction of my academic views and thesis.

Simply Puzzled
October 28th, 2008, 09:52 PM
Okay, I'll take some of the bait being offered. This article completely fails to meet any academic criteria I'm aware of (for starters, I was interested to read about point 27, only to find out it is so poorly cited as to be worthless. For example, you should cite your friend as a person communique, or at the very least, several examples that go "Prof. Hutton says X about person Y on Z page, but person Y actually says U"), but you keep repeatedly talking about continental Europe's alleged consensus on the matter of witchcraft. Can you cite one peer-reviewed study from a reputable academic journal that clearly states not only your hypothesis on witchcraft as IE shamanism but that scholars on the continent have reached a consensus? Let me be quite clear that language is not a barrier. If it is not in a language I read at an academic level, I know one person or another that can read pretty much every European language living or dead. I'll even make it easier for you and narrow it down to one reference in one journal that scholars in *one country* on the continent have reached a clear consensus on this matter. All I want is the article title, the name of the journal, and the date published and the page on which is appears. Nothing else is required on your part since I'll look it up myself (in the original language).

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 28th, 2008, 10:48 PM
How dare you make such offensive ans impudent accusations about me! It is apparent that you are incapable of engaging in a factually-based discussion. Also, if you knew the definition of the term ad hominem, you wouldn't have used it. An ad hominem attack (which means "to the man") is if I charged you, or Hutton, must not be believed because you have blue eyes or brown hair, for example. All that I have charged Hutton and Cohn with, etc. have been to do with simple factually-based arguments (they frequently engage in known Logical Fallacies). If you think I am wrong--and I have levied this charge at you before--than PROVE ME WRONG! So far, you haven't. This, of course, leads me to believe that you are incapable of doing so.

And, the notion that you or Valnorran have "torn me to shreads" is the most laughable thing that I've ever heard; in fact, it's offensive to my intellect (as well as every reasonable individual, here)! Let's please dispence with such pseudo-logic as what is being crually thrown in the direction of my academic views and thesis.

I need not prove you wrong, as countless historians have done so for me, and you know it. And need I remind you again that you issued a grave insult to Valnorran and I in your last thread, and we still await an apology?

(for those playing at home, Wade here suggested that Valnorran or I would pretend to be academics of standing in order to destroy his reputation at the institute of higher learning he claims to be attending)

Your continued evasiveness over what your degree is in leads me to believe that like Murray's witch-cult, it's fictitious.

Simply Puzzled, you're not going to get a good answer out of Wade here. No-one ever does.

I stumbled across this (http://community.livejournal.com/nonfluffypagans/695359.html) this evening and found the last point hilarious, incidentally. I've got to admit that I partially disagree with that last point, though.

Comparing you to Robin Artisson does a grave disservice to Robin Artisson.

Valnorran
October 29th, 2008, 08:22 AM
And, the notion that you or Valnorran have "torn me to shreads" is the most laughable thing that I've ever heard; in fact, it's offensive to my intellect (as well as every reasonable individual, here)! Let's please dispence with such pseudo-logic as what is being crually thrown in the direction of my academic views and thesis.
Hell, I just want to know what your degree is in. Why is that such a volatile question? I freely laid out the credentials I have and the one I'm working on. Why can't you do the same?

MacMorrighan
October 29th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Okay, I'll take some of the bait being offered. This article completely fails to meet any academic criteria I'm aware of (for starters, I was interested to read about point 27, only to find out it is so poorly cited as to be worthless. For example, you should cite your friend as a person communique, or at the very least, several examples that go "Prof. Hutton says X about person Y on Z page, but person Y actually says U"), but you keep repeatedly talking about continental Europe's alleged consensus on the matter of witchcraft. Can you cite one peer-reviewed study from a reputable academic journal that clearly states not only your hypothesis on witchcraft as IE shamanism but that scholars on the continent have reached a consensus? Let me be quite clear that language is not a barrier. If it is not in a language I read at an academic level, I know one person or another that can read pretty much every European language living or dead. I'll even make it easier for you and narrow it down to one reference in one journal that scholars in *one country* on the continent have reached a clear consensus on this matter. All I want is the article title, the name of the journal, and the date published and the page on which is appears. Nothing else is required on your part since I'll look it up myself (in the original language).

Yes, page numbers have not been cited; but that is primarily that, at the time of writing (quite a long time ago!) it was written for those with a familiarity with those works being discussed. Hell, if scholars are able to use the "Appeal to Authority", why not me? (That was a rhetorical question!) Moreover, it was not written for the review of scholars, but for Pagans (it's been published in a British Pagan magazine), who would not necessarily be interested in such nit-picking. As the for European academic consensus, this is evident only from reading many work by scholars from the Continent that differ markedly for the prosaic views of Britain and American (where they rather choose to ignore such evidence like Silverfire Darkmoon apparently chooses to do). Sadly, it apepars that you don't want to put in the footwork and to actually read many books written by various scholars from the Continent! Though, there is an article by Prof. Gabor Klaniczey that I can't think of the title and journbal, right now... And, that you would even have the ability to look up an academic journal is extremely unlikely, because I know many Europeans and British citizens that cannot uncover academic journals...even here in the US is very difficult, depending upon the whims of thr Univ. Librarian in question.

Valnorran
October 29th, 2008, 12:52 PM
because i know many europeans and british citizens that cannot uncover academic journals...even here in the us is very difficult, depending upon the whims of thr univ. Librarian in question.
jstor.

MacMorrighan
October 29th, 2008, 12:54 PM
I need not prove you wrong, as countless historians have done so for me, and you know it. And need I remind you again that you issued a grave insult to Valnorran and I in your last thread, and we still await an apology?

(for those playing at home, Wade here suggested that Valnorran or I would pretend to be academics of standing in order to destroy his reputation at the institute of higher learning he claims to be attending)

Your continued evasiveness over what your degree is in leads me to believe that like Murray's witch-cult, it's fictitious.

Simply Puzzled, you're not going to get a good answer out of Wade here. No-one ever does.

I stumbled across this (http://community.livejournal.com/nonfluffypagans/695359.html) this evening and found the last point hilarious, incidentally. I've got to admit that I partially disagree with that last point, though.

Comparing you to Robin Artisson does a grave disservice to Robin Artisson.

Your lame innuendos do nothing to advance your disgusting ad hominem assaults at me! And, no, you're wrong...your "scholars" have NOT proven me wrong. Rather, I am still waiting for YOU to prove ME wrong about ANYTHING! For example: PROVE to ME that Cohn DIDN'T lie about and misrepresent Murray by comparing his textual analysis of her documentational quotings with what she actual published. You can''t because he did demonstrably misrepresent her! Either put-up, or shut up! I refuse to allow you to brow beat others into mindlessly accepting your views foir fear of being castigated as a "Fluff Bunny Murrayite" for holding an alternative academic view! ...it's disgusting! You can levy any accusation you like about me--I don't care! I am interested in the FACTS of the history in question, not something politically motivated that you are trying to sell, here.

Furthermore, I don't like being lied about: I *never* claimed that you or what's-his-name were not studying towards any degree in whatever peripherally-related subjects.

I'm still waiting to be PROVEN WRONG! I sincerely doubt that the intelligent people here will allow themselves to be bullied by their disreputible tactics of innuendo and ad hominem character assasinations. They are smarter than that. And, I maintain that what subject I am currently studying in is irrelivent (though I do have the support of my Professors, which is otherwise none of your business), as should yours be to anyone of reasonable intellect. It doesn't mean anything to me; and it shouldn't mean anything to anyone here. It's only an example of one trying to throw their weight around, which is laughible. I have more respect fprmyself and the intellect of others than to fall back on essential "name dropping".

Oh, and I *NEVER* insulted either you or Val-whatever! I am insulted to be accused of such! Rather, if you imagine that I have insulted you, it was unintentional; and, you should, perhaps, grow a thicker skin.

MacMorrighan
October 29th, 2008, 01:05 PM
jstor.

A University with a subscription to JSTR is very difficult to find; also, they don't yield access to every article one might be looking for. That being said, here in my own home state I have had a very dofficult time locating any of our even major Universities that subscribe to this service...even the Univ. I am studying at--despite me and my Professors' pleas--have refused to subscribe.

Valnorran
October 29th, 2008, 01:21 PM
What university is this? University of Louisiana at Lafayette is a public university and has JSTOR, Project Muse, Worldcat, and others.

Simply Puzzled
October 29th, 2008, 08:19 PM
As the for European academic consensus, this is evident only from reading many work by scholars from the Continent that differ markedly for the prosaic views of Britain and American (where they rather choose to ignore such evidence like Silverfire Darkmoon apparently chooses to do). Sadly, it apepars that you don't want to put in the footwork and to actually read many books written by various scholars from the Continent!


This is a cheap shot. You made a claim that was supposed to stand up to academic rigor and then chastise me for not having replicated your results. The point of academic rigor is that we aren't reinventing the wheel.


Though, there is an article by Prof. Gabor Klaniczey that I can't think of the title and journbal, right now... And, that you would even have the ability to look up an academic journal is extremely unlikely, because I know many Europeans and British citizens that cannot uncover academic journals...even here in the US is very difficult, depending upon the whims of thr Univ. Librarian in question.

Let me be quite clear again that I have access to literally every academic journal in the world. I have access to a world-class university library that, if it does not have the work, can get it to me through inter-library loan. I have asked you for what any reasonable scholar would consider to be an entirely reasonable request given your claims. All you have done is dodge the question by claiming I a) don't have access to materials I do, and b) that I should read everything you have read in order to reach your conclusion. Sorry. Not buying. Once more:

article name, title of journal, date of publication, page number

That's all I require.

David19
October 29th, 2008, 10:00 PM
... And, that you would even have the ability to look up an academic journal is extremely unlikely, because I know many Europeans and British citizens that cannot uncover academic journals...even here in the US is very difficult, depending upon the whims of thr Univ. Librarian in question.

Those who have been to uni can, or you can purchase the article. Don't try and make out that people in the UK, or Europe, are being "kept in the dark", or are "too dumb" to access articles.

David19
October 29th, 2008, 10:01 PM
jstor.

qft.

David19
October 29th, 2008, 10:03 PM
A University with a subscription to JSTR is very difficult to find; also, they don't yield access to every article one might be looking for. That being said, here in my own home state I have had a very dofficult time locating any of our even major Universities that subscribe to this service...even the Univ. I am studying at--despite me and my Professors' pleas--have refused to subscribe.

I don't know what uni you go to, but, over here, practically, every uni has a subscription to JSTOR. Again, don't insult Britain, or European countries, by trying to say academic articles are "kept locked up".

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 30th, 2008, 12:20 AM
Furthermore, I don't like being lied about: I *never* claimed that you or what's-his-name were not studying towards any degree in whatever peripherally-related subjects.

Oh, and I *NEVER* insulted either you or Val-whatever! I am insulted to be accused of such! Rather, if you imagine that I have insulted you, it was unintentional; and, you should, perhaps, grow a thicker skin.

Hmmm. Because in your other thread, you said:


I don't trust you (or Silverfire DarkMoon...whom I'm relatively sure would jump at the chance!) enough to imagine that you wouldn't check up on me and warn this UP about your percieved "academic standing" against me (when it's ONLY a difference of academic OPINION!). So, can you REALLY blame me for being so suspicious? I seriously doubt that anyone would be so foolish as to find my suspicious heart somehow unreasonable. My Profs. had informed me that someone they didn't know were spreading rumors of me by contacting them on-line, etc. Rumors that had NO basis in fact.

Translation: Valnorran and I would have no problem with contacting a university press and pretend to be people of academic standing in order to discredit you in some fashion, with the added implication that people similar to us, if not we ourselves, have already done so. That seems like an insult to me. How 'bout you, Valnorran? Feeling insulted?

Two people have piped up with what their degree is in, one of whom holds one which is completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Yet you continue to claim that it's irrelevant. Unless you tell me what your degree is in your next post, I'm going to conclude that you haven't got one. This evasiveness, it is suspicious, you see.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 30th, 2008, 12:22 AM
I don't know what uni you go to, but, over here, practically, every uni has a subscription to JSTOR. Again, don't insult Britain, or European countries, by trying to say academic articles are "kept locked up".

I doubt he goes to a university of any description, to be honest.

P.S. (and pursuant to my above post) I go to Mohawk College of Applied Art and Technology, and am studying Web Applications.

ffetcher
October 30th, 2008, 04:24 AM
The situation may be different in the US, here in the UK I have access to the Uni library as an alumnus, but my reader card specifically excludes access to JSTOR, MUSE, SCI and so on. This means that I end up posting on a private list 'can someone dig up a copy of...' which is okay if I'm chasing a specific article but less satisfactory for all concerned if I'm doing a literature search.

It is of course possible to pay for individual articles, but costs do tend to mount up and in fact some of the foreign language journals don't, for some reason, allow this at all. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people and academic organisations making money from content: I'm just pointing out that JSTOR and MUSE aren't a solution for everyone.

blessings
ffetcher

ffetcher
October 30th, 2008, 05:24 AM
Wade, just getting back to he review for a minute; I'll leave others to discuss pagan survivals, other than to say that I have experience of the 'Saami' and agree that their pagan/shamanic worship-system is still extant though by no means universal. However, to get nit-picking for a minute, when you step into one of my main fields of interest:

In the initial edition of this text from 1980, Russell admonishes the existence of "Old" Dorothy Clutterback as a figment of Gerald Gardner's fertile imagination. Incensed by this unfounded accusation, Doreen Valiente (my personal hero) published an account (in Janet & Stewart Farrar's The Witches' Way [1984]) in which she located the marriage- and death-certificate of "Old Dorothy", thus proving her existence! These current revelations in consideration, Prof. Russell has made no attempt to rescind his earlier declamation; rather, "Old Dorothy" is merely portrayed as a leading figure in Gardner's personal assertions (here presented as mythical), with no mention pertaining to her factual existence. This is ultimately misleading, I fear.
Actually you're conflating two references that shouldn't necessarily be conflated. Gardner identifies "Old Dorothy". Valiente identifies "Dorothy Clutterbuck": she can't have needed to look very far for evidence of the latter's existence, she was very well known in the area. But, there's actually no evidence that Dorothy Clutterbuck is the person Gardner referred to. I think Valente thought she'd proved the point but from published sources it doesn't stand up by modern scholarly standards.

Heselton relies on Dorothy Clutterbuck poetry and writings, intended for visitors to read, to make the link. Hutton has also read them and I side with him when he suggests that they're the product of a classical education of the period. Of course it's possible that Dorothy Clutterbuck was "Old Dorothy", and that many 'hereditary Wiccans' are oathbound on the point, but an understanding of the society in the area at the time makes me feel that this is unlikely.

Whilst I could wish that Russell had inserted a paragraph similar to mine above and left the reader to make their own judgement, it might be easier and fairer to call Russel on his dismissal of Gardner's 'personal assertions'. The weight of current research suggests that a group was indeed working in the area before Gardner's arrival, and an examination of what Gardner actually said, rather than what others say he said, is entirely consistent with this group being much as Heselton describes it. The fact that a number of researchers (including me) think that the group started not long before 1935 is irrelevant to the 'myth vs reality' argument.

blessings
ffetcher

Valnorran
October 30th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Translation: Valnorran and I would have no problem with contacting a university press and pretend to be people of academic standing in order to discredit you in some fashion, with the added implication that people similar to us, if not we ourselves, have already done so. That seems like an insult to me. How 'bout you, Valnorran? Feeling insulted?
I'm insulted he'd think I'd actually buy that explanation. Every other scholar manages to publish work and name names without torpedoing his own career. Plus I've explained how someone with academic credentials would be immune to such shennanigans. I even posted my degrees and school just to make him feel safer. Come on in, Mac, the water's fine.

My university is hardly the most prestigious or well-funded, yet we have JSTOR, Worldcat, Project Muse, and several others. I have a hard time believing his school can't afford them. If, by some bizarre twist of fate, his school doesn't have them, give us the articles and the journals they're in and those of us with access to JSTOR et al. can find them. For that matter, sometimes all it takes is google.

Mac, seriously, man... can you not just say what degree you hold and what university you attend? Come on.

Silverfire Darkmoon
October 30th, 2008, 09:39 AM
Wade, just getting back to he review for a minute; I'll leave others to discuss pagan survivals, other than to say that I have experience of the 'Saami' and agree that their pagan/shamanic worship-system is still extant though by no means universal. However, to get nit-picking for a minute, when you step into one of my main fields of interest:


In the initial edition of this text from 1980, Russell admonishes the existence of "Old" Dorothy Clutterback as a figment of Gerald Gardner's fertile imagination. Incensed by this unfounded accusation, Doreen Valiente (my personal hero) published an account (in Janet & Stewart Farrar's The Witches' Way [1984]) in which she located the marriage- and death-certificate of "Old Dorothy", thus proving her existence! These current revelations in consideration, Prof. Russell has made no attempt to rescind his earlier declamation; rather, "Old Dorothy" is merely portrayed as a leading figure in Gardner's personal assertions (here presented as mythical), with no mention pertaining to her factual existence. This is ultimately misleading, I fear.


Actually you're conflating two references that shouldn't necessarily be conflated. Gardner identifies "Old Dorothy". Valiente identifies "Dorothy Clutterbuck": she can't have needed to look very far for evidence of the latter's existence, she was very well known in the area. But, there's actually no evidence that Dorothy Clutterbuck is the person Gardner referred to. I think Valente thought she'd proved the point but from published sources it doesn't stand up by modern scholarly standards.

Heselton relies on Dorothy Clutterbuck poetry and writings, intended for visitors to read, to make the link. Hutton has also read them and I side with him when he suggests that they're the product of a classical education of the period. Of course it's possible that Dorothy Clutterbuck was "Old Dorothy", and that many 'hereditary Wiccans' are oathbound on the point, but an understanding of the society in the area at the time makes me feel that this is unlikely.

This is actually an extremely good point. I'm very glad to see someone else think that the Clutterbuck diaries are the product of a classical education.

The fact that Heselton takes the fact that her capital Ds looked like crescent moons as evidence that she was some variety of witch does not cause me to suppport his idea in that department either.

David19
October 30th, 2008, 08:36 PM
The situation may be different in the US, here in the UK I have access to the Uni library as an alumnus, but my reader card specifically excludes access to JSTOR, MUSE, SCI and so on. This means that I end up posting on a private list 'can someone dig up a copy of...' which is okay if I'm chasing a specific article but less satisfactory for all concerned if I'm doing a literature search.

It is of course possible to pay for individual articles, but costs do tend to mount up and in fact some of the foreign language journals don't, for some reason, allow this at all. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people and academic organisations making money from content: I'm just pointing out that JSTOR and MUSE aren't a solution for everyone.

blessings
ffetcher

Not sure how long ago you went to uni, but, I can access JSTOR, and other academic, search engines, easily.

~Elise~
October 30th, 2008, 11:04 PM
PLEASE keep to the topic and stop the personal attacks. Attack the post, not the poster. AND don't drag arguments across threads.

ffetcher
October 31st, 2008, 02:47 AM
Not sure how long ago you went to uni, but, I can access JSTOR, and other academic, search engines, easily.

Oh, the Uni library has access, but my alumni reader card (let's just say that I graduated a good few years ago) doesn't entitle me to use quite a range of electronic facilities (actually lack of access to the cafeteria is usually more of a problem, the next nearest coffee being a quarter-mile walk away).

I suspect that these restrictions made sense once and that the number of alumni cards that are regularly used is probably vanishingly small. Eventually they may get fed up of answering my emails and proudly march forward into the twentieth century.

But this is getting off-topic as well, so...

blessings
ffetcher

Toby Stimpson
October 31st, 2008, 02:49 AM
Not sure how long ago you went to uni, but, I can access JSTOR, and other academic, search engines, easily.

Same here. Through my library alone I can easily find peer reviewed journals and scholarly dissertations, all online. That and every Library will have classic texts and books, as well as entire databases filled with texts. I know that in the University library systems, to be a reputable University, the library has to have access to a varied assortment of texts, otherwise well known academics are not going to waste their time there.

Its a good thing for me, because a lot of the databases of peer reviewed journals I have access to at York have now complete articles in PDF format... I mass download a LOT from the uni site. Its a bad habit!

ffetcher
October 31st, 2008, 04:08 AM
earlier (it seems quite a long time ago) I posted:


Heselton relies on Dorothy Clutterbuck poetry and writings, intended for visitors to read, to make the link. Hutton has also read them and I side with him when he suggests that they're the product of a classical education of the period. Of course it's possible that Dorothy Clutterbuck was "Old Dorothy", and that many 'hereditary Wiccans' are oathbound on the point, but an understanding of the society in the area at the time makes me feel that this is unlikely.to which Darkfire Silvermoon responded:


This is actually an extremely good point. I'm very glad to see someone else think that the Clutterbuck diaries are the product of a classical education.

The fact that Heselton takes the fact that her capital Ds looked like crescent moons as evidence that she was some variety of witch does not cause me to suppport his idea in that department either.This was discussed in the "Old Dorothy" thread that petered out in 2005. I've just done a quick skip-read to refresh my memory and it seems to me that a fair number of the points Wade raises in his original post are raised in that thread. It might be good to revisit some of them.

I think that since the involvement of Dorothy Clutterbuck doesn't really affect any argument about the pre-existence of a group in the area, it might be worthwhile just ignoring that aspect and then examining the remaining evidence to see how well it fits together.

blessings
ffetcher

ffetcher
October 31st, 2008, 04:54 AM
"Simply Puzzled" asked for "one reference" (about continental Europe's alleged consensus on the matter of witchcraft); presumably somewhat tongue-in-cheek because Pocs' (with others) series "Demons, Spirits, Witches" appears to me at least to lend some credence to the point Wade was trying to make.

However, my Hungarian is only good enough to order the right size of beer and get around the country without getting lost or starving to death, and my knowledge of other eastern European languages is worse. In this instance, therefore, I have to work in English, making it difficult or often impossible for me to follow the citations, so I can't form an opinion on whether the work at Central European University is a "consensus". However, what I have read I find both fascinating and convincing, so I'd love to know more from those with a better grasp of the topic.

I have commented elsewhere that even if there's not a consensus, there appears to me to be enough credible research out there to make it worth discussing whether such models might also apply to the UK.

blessings
ffetcher

David19
October 31st, 2008, 10:16 AM
Oh, the Uni library has access, but my alumni reader card (let's just say that I graduated a good few years ago) doesn't entitle me to use quite a range of electronic facilities (actually lack of access to the cafeteria is usually more of a problem, the next nearest coffee being a quarter-mile walk away).

I suspect that these restrictions made sense once and that the number of alumni cards that are regularly used is probably vanishingly small. Eventually they may get fed up of answering my emails and proudly march forward into the twentieth century.

But this is getting off-topic as well, so...

blessings
ffetcher


Same here. Through my library alone I can easily find peer reviewed journals and scholarly dissertations, all online. That and every Library will have classic texts and books, as well as entire databases filled with texts. I know that in the University library systems, to be a reputable University, the library has to have access to a varied assortment of texts, otherwise well known academics are not going to waste their time there.

Its a good thing for me, because a lot of the databases of peer reviewed journals I have access to at York have now complete articles in PDF format... I mass download a LOT from the uni site. Its a bad habit!

Hope your uni does allow you access soon, as most other uni's do, like Toby said.

BTW, sorry to get OT.

Simply Puzzled
November 5th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Looks my request for a single source from Wade has gone unanswered since I proved I had the ability to fact-check. It's a shame someone interested in publishing through academic presses dodges such a legitimate request. If his book does get published, I wonder how he will respond to the inevitable critiques of it?

ffetcher
November 6th, 2008, 04:59 AM
Looks my request for a single source from Wade has gone unanswered since I proved I had the ability to fact-check.As has my own comment about Pocs's series in English and my inability to follow the Hungarian citations and thus form my own opinion on whether there's a 'consensus', simply to work out that several scholars support the thesis. This wasn't a troll: if you do have that ability, I'd really like to know more and discuss the matter.

Most western European languages I can manage sufficiently well, and when I get stuck at "Il a des idees au dessus de son gare" one of my friends is a professional translator (since these topics are to say the least unusual, you may imagine the discussions about the precise meanings of some of the terms). Since we are both much more than halfway through the traditrional three-score-years-and-ten, however, we are agreed that life is too short to try to master the vagaries of Hungarian.

So, please help if you can.

blessings
ffetcher

Simply Puzzled
November 6th, 2008, 07:24 PM
So, please help if you can.

blessings
ffetcher

Since you are asking me to read an entire book, and not simply fact-check a citation, I would be willing to do this, but please give me an appropriate time-frame. I'm working full-time, applying to grad school, and I try to maintain something of a social life :-). It looks like an interesting book so I will read it and get back to you.

ffetcher
November 7th, 2008, 04:42 AM
Since you are asking me to read an entire book, and not simply fact-check a citation, I would be willing to do this, but please give me an appropriate time-frame. I'm working full-time, applying to grad school, and I try to maintain something of a social life :-). It looks like an interesting book so I will read it and get back to you.

I know the feeling. Trying to run a firm in the current climate doesn't leave much time for a social life either. :) But, since the work of Pocs and others at UCE is one example Wade cited, I thought I'd pull it out whilst he's busy on the other thread in what I belatedly realise is a very old personal argument. I wasn't expecting a considered view on the material any time soon, just an acknowledgement that a discussion might be fruitful.

For the record, in terms of the importance of Pocs's work to Wade's critique, and thus why reading the book(s) will help form an opinion, I think that the scholarly chain runs roughly thus:

Although Hutton admits that Murray's work on the witch-cult is 'not atypical for the period', Murray 'lost' the academic argument (about an organised witch-cult) some time between the publication of her first and second books on witchcraft. Several authors, including Cohn, have critiqued her work, and Wade is citing Cohn as having somewhat misrepresented her. That such a misrepresentation has occurred is beyond doubt, though whether it's what Wade claims or whether it's just sloppy work depends on a couple of precise points, and specifically whether Cohn states that he's working from the first book or whether he implies that he's critiquing the first two books together.

Hutton is clearly aware that Cohn's criticisms apply to the first book only and he dismisses the second book as never having been accepted in scholarly circles. To an extent Cohn's specific criticism of Murray is peripheral to the argument here. In the same critiques Hutton (and Russell, which is where we came in) toally dismiss the possibility of any survival of an organised witch-cult, and in Hutton's case any survival of paganism at all[1]. I believe that the series in English represents a summary of the work of Pocs and others at UCE, and my reading is that it presents exactly the evidence that Hutton et al say doesn't exist. Hutton simply says that the work is 'controversial', Wade that it represents a consensus.

Since I think I have the high ground in that I read and speak a little Hungarian, I suspect that we are all relying on English sources: Hutton of course has access to the scholarly circuit but I'd feel more confident of his position if he said why the work is controversial, and give his grounds for dismissing it. Admitting the possibility that Pocs's work is valid doesn't mean accepting Murray's thesis, but it does mean re-evaluating whether Cohn's critique, and hence that of everyone else who cites him uncritically, is somewhat over the top.

Wade, if I've misrepresented any part of your argument here, dive in and let me know.

blessings
ffetcher