Manipulation vs. Free Will

[Darkest Eve]

I put this here because I was looking for some higher-level input. :) (Not that all input isn't valuable... but I think those of you with more experience might better get where I'm going... I hope. :lol: I'm doing reasearch and opinions, so you may see these type of random questions from me again. )

How often, over the course of your practice of your particular brand paganism would you say that you have magickally or metaphysically manipulated another individual?

Is this manipulation interference with free will, or do you consider it a nudge in the "right" direction, more of a pointing the person in the direction that you want them to go?

In what instance would you not condone or condemn such manipulation... or would you even consider it manipulation?

How would you define manipulation? Free will?

[aranarose]

I have no problem with manipulative magic. At all.

First, understand that I don't view magic as anything special. It's a part of my life, just as much as cooking or breathing is a part of my life. It's completely natural, and it's just one more tool in my arsenal of tools to make my life a bit easier.

Second, we manipulate everyday. It's a part of human interaction to manipulate people for our own personal gain and benefit. Some people see it as negotiation, others as compromise, whatever. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I smile and wink a bit, and you let me out of that ticket...

We're always trying to get the better end of the deal, a bargain, whatever, and that's all manipulation.

So if magic is just an everyday part of life, if using it is a natural thing to do, saying that manipulative magic is wrong would be highly hypocritical.

As far as free will, if there is such a thing, I doubt that I'm powerful enough to truly interfere with it. Particularly seeing as that in multiple myths, even the gods can't interfere in it... people still have choices. Perhaps when it comes to being manipulated magically, their free will choice is to go along for the ride, or to resist it. But there is still free will there.

And if there is no such thing as free will (I'm a determinist, so I'm inclined to believe there isn't really free will), then it really doesn't matter, now does it?

[BlackLili]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I take a similar viewpoint to Aranarose.

I don't have a problem with manipulative magic(k) because I see all acts of Goetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia) as manipulative.

If the magic(k)al practitioner is working towards an end that isn't designed to bring them closer to the Divine (Theurgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgy)), then ultimately it is for a worldly purpose, and classified as Goetia - at least in the simplistic way I see it. I am not a Crowley-ite so some may disagree with this "stub" of information, but that's how I see it.

When we're making magic(k) of any "low"/Goetic type, we're manipulating energy of some sort - maybe not immediately effecting another living being, but ultimately touching something else to achieve our ends. This is an all-encompassing definition, and includes "little" magic(k)s like a candle lit for prosperity, and the "big" debatable workings, like love magic(k) and "darker" tricks.

To me, if a person is uncomfortable with "manipulative" magic(k) like a love spell (most typical example), they should stop and think hard about how they feel about prosperity candles, or healing spells done with or without someone's knowledge. Many people rationalize or justify or try to draw a line, defending one versus the other with statements like, "But I was just doing it for their own good!" or "I added 'And it harm none' at the end so it's alright!" - and maybe in their heads that all makes sense. To me though, manipulation is manipulation.

Like A'Rose said - if I'm out to seduce someone, I'll be lighting some incense and a candle, chanting while I bathe, but then doing the typical girlie perfume-powder-makeup thang and putting on a killer outfit to show off my best assets.

We encourage one another to cover our "mundane" bases before (or alongside) our magic(k)al acts to reinforce their power on this plane - and so manipulation is the same whether it too, is magic(k)al or mundane.

It's all about moderation, as usual. As long as we're in a good head space and feeling solid in our own "world" we should be able to maintain control of our desires and our workings. Magic(k), IMO, shouldn't be done if we have internal issues of our own - too much of those issues can influence our workings. So if we're feeling uncertain or frightened about if we "should" work a trick, we're just as likely to sabotage ourselves or completely cancel out our efforts altogether. The best magic(k) is done with a clear conscience and a steady hand, regardless of the intent. :devil:

[Philosophia]

I find that many people have this weird reaction to the word manipulation and how most find it abhorrent and wrong.

Manipulation is a part of life. We manipulate everything, from people to animals, and even non-living things.

In my opinion, magic is manipulation and even free will is a small form of it. We try to do as we please but our lives tend somewhat manipulated by a lot of different outside forces.

[Darth Brooks]

I'm a firm believer in individualism and in the right of an individual to pick and choose his/her own destiny or whatever. But at the same time I think it's necessary to manipulate one's environment in order to survive. This would include manipulating other people.

I am not a big fan of the "Do what I say or I'll do something nasty!" kind of approach. Too tyrannical for my tastes. I'd rather arrange things so that the person I am trying to manipulate will "discover" for themselves the idea I want them to have, and then go with it entirely by their own volition. That way, they're doing what I want, but they think they're doing it because they want to - and maybe they are. But the point is, manipulation is usually much more successful and fruitful when it is not recognized for what it is. I.e., temptation usually works better than coercion. You can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, or something to that effect. This is what we Setians refer to as "lower black magic."

What aranarose said is correct. Human beings manipulate every day. Part of the reason why we are so highly evolved as we are is because of our skill in manipulating our environments. There is nothing "evil" or "shameful" about it, or at least not in and of itself - it's just another part of survival. And those who put down manipulation as "wrong" might want to analyze their own behavior much more closely - because I'm willing to bet they manipulate people and things in their own little ways, and they might not even realize they are doing it. That is how natural it is. One might ask them:

1) What does the parent do when their child misbehaves and they wish to encourage them to behave more appropriately?

2) What does the pet-owner do when their puppy or their kitten is not housebroken and routinely shits on the living room carpet?

3) What does the politician do when they want to win an election?

These are rhetorical questions.

[Vampiel]

:rollingla

These humans think they still have free will?

:muwaha:

[Sakurako]

I agree with the above posters. I have no problem with manipulations. Alot of people asume that any type of manipulation is a negative thing due to the stigma attached to the word. Everyone performs some type of manipulation every single day wether they want to recognize that fact or not. I personally dont see a distinction between the 'mundane world' and the 'magickal world' it's all so intergrated in my world so manipulation in everyday life is no different to manipulating someone with magick. (I hope I'm making sense i have'nt slept in over 38hrs lol) I also dont see a difference between sending say healing energy and sending not so healing energy lol. While I dont advocate intentionally harming anyone I also have absolutly no problem doing so if I feel a situation requires me to do so. I think to shy away from that is also not living our full potential. People are manipulative by nature, the majority of times its how we get what we want. If I want my son to clean his toys I offer him a reward to do so - I'm manipulating him by offering him an incentive to do something I want him to do.

Interesting topic. I'd like to see if anyone has a differing opinion.

[Darkest Eve]

Thank you everyone for your input so far! :)

[Shanti]

I don't mess with anyone unless they are messing with my reality!
I have the free will to not have another mess with my life.

As long as you are not messing with me, I don't mess with you.

As for healing or other positive manipulations, I only act if asked.

[SphinYote]

Interesting question, and I've reacted strongly to it in the past.

Perhaps one element that needs to be considered is "known" manipulation versus "unknown".

That is, for example in the case of attracting someone, say you talk to them, wearing perfumes, etc. These are things that most people can pick up on, whether or not they pay conscious attention to it.

Whereas performing a spell, they can't. To me, it seems a parallel (though much less powerful, unless the individual casting has a talent greater than anything I'd give most people credit for), to drugging someone's drink at a bar.

Then again, one could also compare it to people having the right"chemistry". that is, the phermones that we all give off without being consciously aware.

Two very different ways of looking at the same phenomena.

We subconsciously manipulate not only others, but ourselves by the phermones we give off, and there are methods of increasing or reducing the effectiveness of said phermones.

Now, I don't like the notion that someone would manipulate me without my awareness. That's not to say I haven't occasionally fantasized about it, or teased with the notion of doing more with people I've felt attracted to.

And given my own discomfort with the notion of it happening to me, I sometimes feel uncomfortable even with the fantasies, the idea that our fantasies can affect reality is one that has been on my mind from time to time, I look at it as a scale from idle fantasy to actually actively focusing that energy and manipulating someone.

I will say that my subjective line is the do unto others as you would have others do unto you....healing is acceptable to me, however my one caveat on any active willed manipulation is that if this isn't the right time for it, if the individual in question is supposed to be learning something that my sending would interfere with, I ask that the universe direct it to where it would be most useful, or direct it back to me to be reused.

Yote

[RainInanna]

I don't have a problem with manipulative magic(k) because I see all acts of Goetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia) as manipulative.

If the magic(k)al practitioner is working towards an end that isn't designed to bring them closer to the Divine (Theurgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgy)), then ultimately it is for a worldly purpose, and classified as Goetia - at least in the simplistic way I see it. I am not a Crowley-ite so some may disagree with this "stub" of information, but that's how I see it.

I love BlackLili's post and feel she's offered the best explanation throughout the entire thing. All magic is manipulation. If you don't want to manipulate, put your wand away and step back from the forum.

Trick is often you're manipulating yourself and surrounding energies. In mainstream positive terms, you call it the Law of Attraction, or refer to any of the Hermetic laws of magic. Or you just call it manipulation.

The point isn't whether you manipulate, it's how, when, and whether you chose the most effective manipulation possible. Most of the time I get better results from manipulating myself ;)

[Teresa]

As stated earlier, to me Magic is manipulation. You manipulate circumstances, people, places, things in order to achieve a desired outcome. Soooooo for the most part I have no issues with manipulation. There are some things that I do not think are wise for a person to undertake though. Such as performing Revenge Spells or Love Spells for Others as an example. ( I feel that the people seeking revenge should do the working or spell. Their energies and emotions will also make it more powerful if they have the skill to raise and direct the raw emotion.)

It is also my personal opinion that I will not perform a Love Spell. I may do a spell or work to help make someone more open to love help them attract it easier, but that is as far as I am willing to take this for someone else. Those are things best done by oneself in my Opinion, Of Course Your Opinion may vary. I only answer for me.:thumbsup:

[Mad_Hexer]

In my opinion, magic is manipulation and even free will is a small form of it. We try to do as we please but our lives tend somewhat manipulated by a lot of different outside forces.


That pretty much sums up what I was going to say..

[RainInanna]

It is also my personal opinion that I will not perform a Love Spell.

I would not perform love spells simply because the nature of love - I don't believe it can injected like a drug or created from thin air. I believe it grows and evolves organically between two people - naturally. If you force a connection to evolve to love too fast, it loses some things it can gain from growing naturally and connections happening as people grow into eachother. Trying to spell love into existence, in my understanding, is over-simplifying a complicated process that needs to develop naturally between people over time. It'd be like forcing a 2 year old to do calculus. There are steps in between that need to be walked for it to work properly.

As to revenge spells, I've seen people's feelings snowball out of control too quickly to do them. Often the nasty feelings arise from fear, and the fear needs to be addressed at its root. Only replying to the nastiness with the same makes more of it. I don't find, when I have feelings of revenge, that doing a spell about it helps ME deal with my negative energy. If anything it just increases the nastiness around me. It's not an ethical problem I have with zapping others so much as the fact that'd be ridiculous to zap myself that way.

There are usually better ways to deal with things, in my experience. YMMV.

[Glowingsun]

The way I believe that Paganism should be, is without manipulation. I have experienced other people trying to manipulate me into christianity and didn't like it. So I try to treat others the way i'd like to be treated.
I try to encourage an interest in paganism with my daughter, though, only because the otherside of her family is very christain. I just want her to experience both ways. But if she's uncomfortable with something I don't make her get involved.
I strongly believe in free-will. I don't get enough freedom in my life and it's hell. I would love to make my own money, have my own career and be my own boss. Have my own house so I can do whatever I want to it. Have total say in all my house rules and have everyone leave me alone.

[Astara Seague]

As stated earlier, to me Magic is manipulation. You manipulate circumstances, people, places, things in order to achieve a desired outcome. Soooooo for the most part I have no issues with manipulation. There are some things that I do not think are wise for a person to undertake though. Such as performing Revenge Spells or Love Spells for Others as an example. ( I feel that the people seeking revenge should do the working or spell. Their energies and emotions will also make it more powerful if they have the skill to raise and direct the raw emotion.)

It is also my personal opinion that I will not perform a Love Spell. I may do a spell or work to help make someone more open to love help them attract it easier, but that is as far as I am willing to take this for someone else. Those are things best done by oneself in my Opinion, Of Course Your Opinion may vary. I only answer for me.:thumbsup:
I agree here :thumbsup:

and for Glowing sun



The way I believe that Paganism should be, is without manipulation. I have experienced other people trying to manipulate me into christianity and didn't like it. So I try to treat others the way i'd like to be treated.

thats a totally different type of manipulation...few pagans at least the ones I have met..... proselite as most Christen sects do..

[Glowingsun]

thats a totally different type of manipulation...few pagans at least the ones I have met..... proselite as most Christen sects do..


:huh:

[Hylomorphic]

Free will is, in any significant sense, any sense that would provide the individual with personal moral responsibility, an incoherent concept. (The argument I have devised showing this to be the case is somewhat long and complicated. Short summary: All judgments ascribing moral responsibility take into account the reasons for an action, but if we have free will, the decision to take an action is logically prior to any reasons for it.)

So free will shouldn't be a factor in analyzing the question.

What should be, then? Yes, it's true that manipulation is something we all do to an extent. Dressing a certain way is an attempt to manipulate others' perceptions of us. All social activity involves some sort of manipulation. Even simply speaking to another is an attempt to influence the thoughts of another.

But is all manipulation ethical? I think that this is clearly not the case. Spreading false rumors, for example, whether to tear down another's character or build up one's own reputation, is clearly unethical.

The issue, then, becomes whether spells influencing others are more similar to the ethical or unethical kinds of manipulation. This can be determined, I think, by asking a few questions about the spell.

The first major question would be whether the spell is harmful to another or not. If it harms another in a situation where causing harm would be unethical--where spreading rumors or even punching them in the nose would be wrong--then the spell would be unethical.

The second question is somewhat related to the first, since it provides one reason why we should or should not harm another. It is: Does this spell treat its object with due respect? Respect for a person minimally implies a recognition of the legitimacy of their way of life, their desires, and their view of the ideal life. Most love spells would fail this test; they show disrespect for the erotic desires of person to be ensorcelled.

The third question I would ask is somewhat broader: would casting this spell show respect to oneself? Answering this question requires a vision of what one's life should look like and what one's chief goals are, and an understanding of how this spell would fit in to that vision. In essence, do I want to be the kind of person who casts this kind of spell?


Such would be my preliminary analysis of the question. There are a host of problems suggested by the question, but I think this framework provides a fairly sound basis of judging manipulative magic.