Spirituality through Norse Paganism

[d_vela_dum]

I'm sorry if this is hard to follow, I'm doing this as a way to get my ideas down, so if anyone doesn't get ANYTHING, please post about it. It'll help me understand my own processing as much as it'll help you understand. With that said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the statement that "spirituality from religion is the spirit transcending religion." Or, as I like to put it, religion is the guide to "happiness" (or nirvana, or enlightenment, or whatever life changing experience) and spirituality is what happens when you actually have the moment or experience.

Now, I identify as Eclectic Asatru. True to the Gods, hail Them. I am having difficulties with my spiritual identity and my religious identity, for lack of better terms. I want to follow my religious path as closely as possible, after all "True to the Gods." True, honest, respectful, and sincere to Them in ALL my beliefs. Yet, if I am to transcend my religion to reach a greater under of both Them and the universe around me, what am I to do? Do I risk dishonoring myself and the sacrifice of my intimate connection with the Gods, or do I risk spiritual unfulfillment for religious dogma?

Now, I know there's not going to be a concrete answer, but ideas are welcome. Ideas, experiences, sympathies even.

Thanks!

[Heart of All]

I'll give this question a go. I'm not entirely sure I understood, but so it goes.

I was really into being Asatru about a year ago. I wanted to do it historically and everything. And I lost the spirituality. It took reading a book that was completely not about the Norse gods, but that was intensely spiritual for me to awaken me from that.

I still worship the Norse gods, but now in a much less traditional way, and I'm much happier. They are pretty happy with me as well. What it took for me was a bit of a paradigm shift that I think is really important. I needed to realize that I couldn't worry all the time about doing it right, but that I just had to do it. And I had to do it in a way that worked. And what worked for me was to create a pantheistic framework for my polytheism. Sure, I'm not a straight up polytheist (though I am a hard polytheist), but I have a really good place to get at the spiritual part of my religion.

Right. So to sum up: dogma was my problem.

[~Elise~]

I don't understand how the dogma is undermining your spirituality? Could you please explain that a bit better...that may help us to be able to answer your question better.

Elise

[Nuadu]

I would guess that Asatru as a traditional religion of a specific culture requires you to follow the cultures traditions. If you vary from that you arent practicing Asatru.

I personally dont like seeing Irelands native religion misrepresented but I cant argue with people who say they have this great relationship with irish gods even though they exist outside our culture and worship our gods in their cultures way not ours. All I can say to them is what they do is not Traditional Irish Paganism.

Unless loosing the label bothers you I wouoldnt sweat it.

[d_vela_dum]

I don't understand how the dogma is undermining your spirituality? Could you please explain that a bit better...that may help us to be able to answer your question better.

Elise


Well, spirituality is a personal experience. I have had several spiritual experiences and would like to continue to do so and to even enhance those experiences. However, religion, any religion, while not repressing spirituality, is a religion because it is about group understanding of core beliefs. Religion is the trail guide and spiritual experiences is the climbing of the mountain. My religion, Asatru, represents what I already believed in, and pushes me to be a better person and to have better relationships (with the Gods, with other people, with spirits, etc.) My spirituality is separate from that, and I think everyone's spirituality is.
My problem is that if I have an experience that is so profound I may question everything (an "enlightenment"), I would be betraying my religion. My religion is very important to me, but my spirituality is also. I'm wrestling with the idea of "is it okay to question my beliefs should a better opportunity arise?" On the one hand, I'd feel like I'd be dishonorable to my Gods and my religion and myself. Yet on the other hand I feel I'd be shutting the door of knowledge, as it were.

[Fiamma]

Well, spirituality is a personal experience. I have had several spiritual experiences and would like to continue to do so and to even enhance those experiences. However, religion, any religion, while not repressing spirituality, is a religion because it is about group understanding of core beliefs. Religion is the trail guide and spiritual experiences is the climbing of the mountain. My religion, Asatru, represents what I already believed in, and pushes me to be a better person and to have better relationships (with the Gods, with other people, with spirits, etc.) My spirituality is separate from that, and I think everyone's spirituality is.
My problem is that if I have an experience that is so profound I may question everything (an "enlightenment"), I would be betraying my religion. My religion is very important to me, but my spirituality is also. I'm wrestling with the idea of "is it okay to question my beliefs should a better opportunity arise?" On the one hand, I'd feel like I'd be dishonorable to my Gods and my religion and myself. Yet on the other hand I feel I'd be shutting the door of knowledge, as it were.

Where is it written that religion has to involve a group?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Out of nine definitions, only two of them mention groups, and none of them
indicate a group requirement.

That aside, as it's already been mentioned, it seems that you're already practicing something that isn't Asatru.

Yes, it's perfectly okay to question your beliefs if something comes up. There's just the possibility of reaching a point where you're practicing a different religion. If that's problematic to you, you have to decide if it's more important that you stuck to what you believe and prefer to practice, or if you stick to a specific belief and practice that is commonly agreed to be "Asatru".

[d_vela_dum]

Where is it written that religion has to involve a group?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Out of nine definitions, only two of them mention groups, and none of them
indicate a group requirement.

That aside, as it's already been mentioned, it seems that you're already practicing something that isn't Asatru.

Yes, it's perfectly okay to question your beliefs if something comes up. There's just the possibility of reaching a point where you're practicing a different religion. If that's problematic to you, you have to decide if it's more important that you stuck to what you believe and prefer to practice, or if you stick to a specific belief and practice that is commonly agreed to be "Asatru".

I guess I worded myself poorly. I still think that in order to achieve a spiritual awakening, you need to transcend your own religion and that they are separate.

I am Eclectic Asatru, because I still follow the practices and beliefs of Asatru as closely as I can and to the best of my ability. Like you said though, I have to decide if it's more important to stick to the dogma I've come to accept as the truth or risk it all for something that could be better or worse.

Now that I have a better idea of what I want,thank you to all, has anyone else been faced with this same problem and how did you deal with it?

[Malcolm]

I guess I worded myself poorly. I still think that in order to achieve a spiritual awakening, you need to transcend your own religion and that they are separate.

I am Eclectic Asatru, because I still follow the practices and beliefs of Asatru as closely as I can and to the best of my ability. Like you said though, I have to decide if it's more important to stick to the dogma I've come to accept as the truth or risk it all for something that could be better or worse.

Now that I have a better idea of what I want,thank you to all, has anyone else been faced with this same problem and how did you deal with it?

I'm curious as to what Dogma you are refering to? When it really comes down to it, all Asatru really has is stories and words of advice.

[Fiamma]

I guess I worded myself poorly. I still think that in order to achieve a spiritual awakening, you need to transcend your own religion and that they are separate. [quote]

Why do you need to transcend your own religion? Why can't you have a spiritual awakening within your religion? Why do they have to be separate? I'd be curious to know how you arrived at this conclusion. (And, for the record, based on my own personal experiences, completely disagree with this. I believe that one can have a spiritual awakening and stay within the same religion, I beleive that a spiritual awakening can lead one to religion. I believe that religion and spirituality are only separate if you're in the wrong religion, or if you choose not to engage spiritually in religion.)

[quote=d_vela_dum;3774827]I am Eclectic Asatru, because I still follow the practices and beliefs of Asatru as closely as I can and to the best of my ability. Like you said though, I have to decide if it's more important to stick to the dogma I've come to accept as the truth or risk it all for something that could be better or worse.

If you're following as closely as you can and to the best of your ability, how is that eclectic? Are you purposely sticking other thigns in there? Could you clarify?

Other than that, well...what Malcolm said.

[~Elise~]

I'm with Fiamma...if, by your defination, you have to transcend religion to be spiritual you're not going to accomplish anything on any path that you choose.

In my personal experience, one is not better than the other, in fact my spirituality enhances my religion. (and I find the opposite true, as well)

Elise

[Dumunzi]

Without trying to be rude... I honestly have no idea what your asking.

<_^

[Fiamma]

I'm with Fiamma...if, by your defination, you have to transcend religion to be spiritual you're not going to accomplish anything on any path that you choose.

In my personal experience, one is not better than the other, in fact my spirituality enhances my religion. (and I find the opposite true, as well)

Elise


For me, the two are inextricable. I can't have one without the other.

[d_vela_dum]

I'm curious as to what Dogma you are refering to? When it really comes down to it, all Asatru really has is stories and words of advice.

I guess it's because of my area. Here, we have an Asatru Assembly, which is organized. Whenever there is organization of a religion, you all agree on something, which basically becomes Dogma. For example:
I could interpret, I don't know, a passage on drinking ( I think it goes something like "Drink not to excess but to merriment" don't quote me on it) to mean drinking is okay, but don't let it control you. Yet the Assembly here could agree that it means, in context with everything else, drink only on days of ceremony or at celebrations.

[d_vela_dum]

Why do you need to transcend your own religion? Why can't you have a spiritual awakening within your religion? Why do they have to be separate? I'd be curious to know how you arrived at this conclusion. (And, for the record, based on my own personal experiences, completely disagree with this. I believe that one can have a spiritual awakening and stay within the same religion, I beleive that a spiritual awakening can lead one to religion. I believe that religion and spirituality are only separate if you're in the wrong religion, or if you choose not to engage spiritually in religion.)

I have just always felt that my religious side was how to live my life and my spiritual side was how to, as put by Black Elk, "find [my]self standing in the middle of the universe and watch as it revolves." Not in an egocentric way, but in a completely objective way, like if you were taken out of the picture and saw it in its entirety. I just don't know how the two can be related, at this point in time. I may find that they are very much one and the same, but right now I feel like they're not and I observe from others that they're not.




If you're following as closely as you can and to the best of your ability, how is that eclectic? Are you purposely sticking other thigns in there? Could you clarify?

Other than that, well...what Malcolm said.

Well, and I mean this in the least derogatory way possible, I don't try to live like I'm Germanic living in Northern Europe. I am not a soldier, I am a pacifist really. I associate more with the Vanir, but I would not consider myself Vanatru because the Aesir are my main Guys. Again, I can only relate this back to my feeling of rejection from the Assembly in my town, because my ideas were kind of strange to them, I guess. I am basing everything I say based on my understanding of what I learned from one of the Godi's there. So if it's not what everyone else everywhere else is thinking, I apologize.

[~Elise~]

well, that explains quite a bit...if you're feeling trapped by the Dogma of Asatru Assembly...then find yourself a different group. Not all groups are as Folkish as AA. Find a different kindred. TALK to them beforehand and see their views on the Lore, that'll tell you if you're interested in joining or not.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[d_vela_dum]

well, that explains quite a bit...if you're feeling trapped by the Dogma of Asatru Assembly...then find yourself a different group. Not all groups are as Folkish as AA. Find a different kindred. TALK to them beforehand and see their views on the Lore, that'll tell you if you're interested in joining or not.

JMO and YMMV

Elise


You know, honestly, after I posted about I actually thought about it. It seems so obvious but it didn't hit me until I wrote it out: maybe I should not be so concerned with being part of a group, yet. I think I'm going to go back to when I was first learning. I'll re-read the Eddas and try to connect that with my spirituality now. Honestly, when I first was interested and began to identify as Asatru, I hadn't had a spiritual experience. So I think I just need to step back for a bit, re-evaluate, find out why Asatru seems to make so much sense to me given my other views.

But I will talk to them too. I'll tell them what I think and I'll talk with them about how I just might not be ready to join a group yet.

[~Elise~]

I'm talking about finding a different Heathen group, BTW. Just wanted to clarify that.

Elise

[Morgaine_cla]

Whenever there is organization of a religion, you all agree on something, which basically becomes Dogma.

I think it's important to make a distinction here... There is a difference between the structure necessary to identify, understand, and follow a path and an ossified, rigid, unyielding codification of every act and expression.

One way to understand this difference is through music... A song has a specific structure that supports it and allows people to play it ensemble. Within this structure one can improvise endlessly, but every improvisation will retain recognisable ('key') elements of the song's main themes. The structure of a spiritual path works in the same way; it should be able to support the shape and form without strangling its expression.

Another way to look at this is to look at the human body. Structure serves spiritual paths the way bones serve the body; it provides support, shape, form, strength, and allows them to move. Dogma is what happens when you get arthritis and your joints won't bend anymore... Unlike the body, spiritual paths are not mortal. They can endure for as long as they continue to find nourishment and life in the present moment. Structure becomes dogma when we yield to fear and the need to control every aspect of something. Dogma stifles expression, but it also starves the structure of nourishment. Ultimately, it's a destructive force whereas structure is not.

Some spiritual traditions and paths are more structured than others. Some groups are more structured than others. That's part of what makes some groups right for some people and not for others. These differences are part of what makes the tapestry of world spiritualities so fascinating!... But these different kinds of structures are distinctly different from dogma in at least one, easy to identify way: dogma doesn't allow things to grow (growth requires movement), and whatever is not growing is dying. A structure that has succumbed to dogma can only diminish, shrinking inside its own ossified shell.

No doubt this is old news to most people here, but new seekers often confuse structure with dogma. They feel constrained by the need to learn a new structure and try to break free of it and improvise before they know and understand the main themes. As a result, they lose the original form. Individuals often argue that this is fine because the individual will make whatever they need from the pieces that are left... however, it's not a very positive thing for the people trying to carry on with the original path. One of the main complaints of native traditions about Neopagans is that they 'borrow' things without understanding them and use them in ways that diffuse the power of the original.

Whether or not we agree that this could happen isn't the point. If we're to interact with real tolerance and respect for one another's beliefs, we need to know what we're doing and why. In that sense, understanding the difference between structure and dogma is vital for those new seekers -- who will inevitably find their ways here to read this fascinating thread. This post is for them.

Thanks for hearing me out, and for providing so much food for thought!

Blessings,
Morgaine

[Hangatyr 13]

I think the term "ecclectic Asatru" is a bit oxymoronic, but you probably mean something a bit different than what I'm thinking. There are core principles inherent to all religions, Asatru included. Then there is dogma. Dogma's basically just an interpretation based on the core princibles of a given religion. Don't worry about other people's dogma.

As far as your "Asatru Assembly" goes (I assume you're not talking about the Asatru Folk Assembly), if they want to control your behavior, then you don't need them. When an organization starts coming up with more ways to govern people's behavior, that's usually when I leave it (this is why I left the AFA). BTW, if they want to tell you that you can only drink during sumble or whatever, then they sound about as Heathen as a Baptist to me.

I don't think spirtuality is about transcending religion. It could be just delving deeper into a given religion. Left Hand Path Runology or Odianism, is one example of this is Heathenry. In LHP Runology, you're emulating Odin, sacrificing self to self to transcend yourself. You're destroying your ego to reveal your inner self and its power. That's my interpretation of it anyway. Call it dogma if you like. You'll develop your own. There are plenty of other ways of delving deeper into Heathenry, like Seidh or developing a personal relationship with the Gods. If you want to be a Heathen and delve deeper into your spirituality, there's no reason why you can't do both and even find your own unique way to delve deeper.

[Kraheera]

I think I understand what you're saying. I've been attracted to the Norse pantheon for quite some time, but I haven't really stepped over that line into Heathenism yet, because I'm frankly unsure of applying any label other than pagan to my name.

I'm more animist than a lot of people are, I believe everything has spirit. So I have to discover whether that meshes with Asatru or not.

But should Odin and his pantheon ever speak to me, I may decide to dedicate myself to them. I will learn through the Edda and the other myths, and I will make of it ... well, as it comes to me.

I'm not much for structuring, and frankly, I don't think it is necessary. Many religions have those that believe in the core principles, but not necessarily the ritualistic details. my grandfather is catholic, for instance... but he doesn't believe he will go to hell if he doesn't confess every week, or if he can't make it to mass. He believes the relationship between god and person is individual.

Same with the Norse pantheon, I suppose. If you feel Called to Odin and his Kin, then you are Called. That does not mean you must force yourself into the structure of a group that doesn't fit right.

It's like trying to fit a size 14 girl into size 8 pants. It just won't be comfortable.

[Rick]

I'm more animist than a lot of people are, I believe everything has spirit. So I have to discover whether that meshes with Asatru or not.

Then Heathenism may be for you. We call those spirits Landvaeter, Land Wights. There are also House Wights, and lotsa other wights.


I'm not much for structuring, and frankly, I don't think it is necessary.

Then Heathenism may not be for you. Heathenism is one of the most structured religions around, the "religion with homework."


It's like trying to fit a size 14 girl into size 8 pants. It just won't be comfortable.

One can always make the effort to get to the desired size... or maybe just look on another hanger... :hahugh:

[Kraheera]

LOL, Rick. I honestly have to say int he postings I've seen of yours, you have one good sense of humor. ^_^

I am seriously looking into heathenism. It is merely how structured it is that kind of... puts me off a bit. Perhaps it is a reaction from how structured living with my dad was. Him and religion was a bit... eh... sticky.

I know I still have some baggage to get rid of, though I'm quite comfortable with acknowledging that I am "different" from the rest of my family. It is the thought process that is taking a while, and I'm not in any large rush. Rushing achieves nothing.

Like many, I once considered myself Wiccan. That is still on my dog tags, because the Military won't put pagan, for some reason. *shrugs* But I identify as an Animist right now, because while Heathenism intrigues me, and perhaps even calls a bit, I'm not quite sure if I'm ready for structuring just yet.

Or perhaps it is that there are no heathens near me, and I have only books and what I read to go off of. I often get more comfortable when I can SEE how others live with structure, rather than trying to read it on a page.

[Rick]

LOL, Rick. I honestly have to say int he postings I've seen of yours, you have one good sense of humor. ^_^

I am seriously looking into heathenism. It is merely how structured it is that kind of... puts me off a bit. Perhaps it is a reaction from how structured living with my dad was. Him and religion was a bit... eh... sticky.

I know I still have some baggage to get rid of, though I'm quite comfortable with acknowledging that I am "different" from the rest of my family. It is the thought process that is taking a while, and I'm not in any large rush. Rushing achieves nothing.

Like many, I once considered myself Wiccan. That is still on my dog tags, because the Military won't put pagan, for some reason. *shrugs* But I identify as an Animist right now, because while Heathenism intrigues me, and perhaps even calls a bit, I'm not quite sure if I'm ready for structuring just yet.

Or perhaps it is that there are no heathens near me, and I have only books and what I read to go off of. I often get more comfortable when I can SEE how others live with structure, rather than trying to read it on a page.

First, thank you for your service.

Heathenism is structured... but it's not rigid. That structure mostly just serves to give ya a solid foundation on which to build.

Let me know you're general location (PM me, if you're not comfortable posting it in the thread), and we'll see if we can find a local group somewhere nearby.

[Kraheera]

I don't mind people knowing. It's Mountain Home AFB, Idaho.

*gags* I hate it here. Weather's awful. LOL. Anyways, I did a bit of research again last night on Heathenism, and it's looking a lot more attractive than it did a month or three ago.

Still, I'd like to talk to active heathens, just to get a feel for it.

[Rick]

Lemme do my hoodoo, and see what I can find.

[Hangatyr 13]

I couldn't find any Heathens in Idaho, but I found some in your closest bordering states, Oregon and Nevada. Do you have a Myspace?:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=184965300

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=349186804

I also found two Heathen meetup groups in Oregon, but they're both near Portland. I hope you like driving:

http://www.meetup.com/Westside-Runes-Meetup/

http://asatru.meetup.com/248/

[Kraheera]

I do have a myspace, I try to check it every few weeks. LOL.

Unfortunately, due to work, I'm not allowed to travel more than about 300 miles. And that's if we have an unrestricted weekend. :(

I'm afraid I'll probably be a solitary for quite a bit, even when I do end up crossing that line into actual heathenism.

I'm really leaning towards it after the past few days. Been having some interesting self-conversations, you could say.

[Hangatyr 13]

Also, since you're in the military, you might want to check out www.odinist.net. It's a Folkish forum ran by the Odinic Rite. It has a military sub-forum which is a great way to meet other military Heathens. They're mostly Army of course, but then again, the Army is the biggest branch. I'm Army myself now after having done eight years in the Navy. Good luck meeting other Heathens and finding your way.:)

[Rick]

I couldn't find any Heathens in Idaho, but I found some in your closest bordering states, Oregon and Nevada. Do you have a Myspace?:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=184965300

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=349186804

I also found two Heathen meetup groups in Oregon, but they're both near Portland. I hope you like driving:

http://www.meetup.com/Westside-Runes-Meetup/

http://asatru.meetup.com/248/

Let me add to that...

Specifically Idaho (don't know how many, if any, of these are current contacts):

http://www.irminsul.org/aw/awwusa.html#USID (http://www.irminsul.org/aw/awwusa.html#USID)

Some national organizations that might have more info:

http://www.irminsul.org/ir/ir.html (http://www.irminsul.org/ir/ir.html)

http://www.freyasfolk.org/ (http://www.freyasfolk.org/)

http://www.odinic-rite.org/ (http://www.odinic-rite.org/)

troth-contact@thetroth.org (troth-contact@thetroth.org)

Good luck!