Submission to deity

[Cassie]

I started thinking about this as a result of something that came up on MWDark and thought it might be an interesting topic here.

To what extent are you willing to submit to the deity you work with? What form does that take? What reservations do you have about it?

I'll come back and add my thoughts if anyone else bites.

[Rudas Starblaze]

for the right amount of money (*cough cough* im a non-profit *cough* organization) ill do just about anything for my loyal subjects. :nyah:

[*~Amora~*]

It depends on the deity. Asklepios is well reputed as a kind and gentle god who takes an unusual amount of interest in the well-being of mortals. As the god of doctors, Hellenes often pray to Him to guide the hands of doctors and surgeons. So in that sense, I would be honored to submit to Him, because it would be to improve the health of the patients who come to our clinic.

[Teresa]

I would not call my relationship with deities a submissive role it is more like a partnership of a friendship. There is give and take on both sides and either can say no. Respect goes along way working in the spirit world just like dealing with the living and the loa are no exception.

I do adhere to dietary restrictions as per custom in my Religion and I also adhere to the offering agreements I personally made with these Loa.

[Astara Seague]

I would not call my relationship with deities a submissive role it is more like a partnership of a friendship. There is give and take on both sides and either can say no. Respect goes along way working in the spirit world just like dealing with the living and the loa are no exception.

.

So True..
its the same with me:uhhuhuh:

[Darth Brooks]

I started thinking about this as a result of something that came up on MWDark and thought it might be an interesting topic here.

To what extent are you willing to submit to the deity you work with? What form does that take? What reservations do you have about it?

I'll come back and add my thoughts if anyone else bites.

Some Setians, and probably most LHPers, would say that I'm doing a terrible job of being a Setian because I take the approach of worshiping Set, rather than worshiping myself. And they would, of course, be entitled to that opinion. But in my opinion, if one worships oneself, then in a way one is deifying oneself, and one is in effect worshiping a deity. On the other hand, if one worships a deity and seeks to become one with it, then in a way one is also deifying and worshiping oneself, for by becoming one with the godhead, one becomes the godhead. For this reason I tend to see the "deity worship versus self worship" dichotomy as false, at least in my own case. Since this dichotomy had nothing to do with how the RHP and the LHP were originally defined in Tantrism anyway (the difference is between methodologies, not between goals), I believe there is ample room in the LHP for my interpretation.

So yes, I do consider myself submissive to Set in a way. But what does this really mean? Set does not exactly show up and give me a list of orders that I am expected to follow. He has no need for rulebooks or commandments. If He wants me to do something, it is easy enough for Him to make me do it, whether I consciously realize I am doing what He wants or not. The idea of being submissive to a deity, for me, does not mean that one becomes a slave who is whipped and bossed around; instead, it means that I try to live my life according to what that deity represents as much as possible, that I simultaneously surrender my identity to it and thereby strengthen my true identity, and that I accept the Will of that deity and my own Will as being one and the same Will, at a divine level. ("As above, so below" - and I am using the term "Will" here in the same way that Aleister Crowley did.)

I hope this makes sense (Set knows it's a lot to digest!), and I hope it does not come across as presumptuous to anyone.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think the concept of submissive is one that implies that we as a collective or individual see ourselves as less than to begin with. As if admitting that we have a reason from the outset to think of ourselves as lessor beings or creatures in the confines of Spirits embrace.

I do not see myself as lessor though I do admit I am not as enlightened or all knownging as those I recognize as god / goddess figures within the scope of my realility. Yet that is not a failing in me simply an impass upon the road I travel to gain that knowledge or enseight that I seek in my spiritual and personal devlopment.

That there are lessons that I believe can be taught to me by those figures does not make me lessor. That in that task there are certain conditions I must adhear to does as much to show them my commitment to thier purpose is strong and my desire is real. Yet in that commitment I also realize that any teacher must first establish the rules under which thier lesson and instruction is to be given in order for the student to progress or trully come to understand the importance and impact of each lesson.

I am not submissive for I see my relationship as one of growth and uprising. I place them upon a higher plane in the sense that I am inspired by them, I am called to them, I am part of them and they part of me, I am a part of a greater whole.

Yes there are things I do that honor them and recognize them above all others for in truth they hold a position in my spiritual world that places them above all others. But that placement does not make them master to my slavehood, nor does it make me lessor to their greater. It does not make me inhumane to their humanity.

It simply shows I recognize them as teacher and greater influence to me. It shows I recognize values they hold or represent that I align to and place great value upon. It shows they are the wellspring from which much of my belief and motivation springs from and overflows upon the course of my life path.

[Cunae]

I always check MY motives, though not always successfully. I ask myself the bracelet question: WWJD? Honestly! I try to do that if I have a sense, from the scripture, what it is. Otherwise, I listen. Most often the Holy Spirit guides me through my conscience if my heart is open to it.

I TRY, though not always successfully...that's important to understand. Sometimes my will gets the best of me. That happens when I don't stop and check my immediate emotion. Like when I get baited... I force myself to walk away and not banter back and forth with someone. It might look chicken but it works very well for me.

Peace with myself and with God is more important. I love my inner peace!

[David19]

Some Setians, and probably most LHPers, would say that I'm doing a terrible job of being a Setian because I take the approach of worshiping Set, rather than worshiping myself. And they would, of course, be entitled to that opinion. But in my opinion, if one worships oneself, then in a way one is deifying oneself, and one is in effect worshiping a deity. On the other hand, if one worships a deity and seeks to become one with it, then in a way one is also deifying and worshiping oneself, for by becoming one with the godhead, one becomes the godhead. For this reason I tend to see the "deity worship versus self worship" dichotomy as false, at least in my own case. Since this dichotomy had nothing to do with how the RHP and the LHP were originally defined in Tantrism anyway (the difference is between methodologies, not between goals), I believe there is ample room in the LHP for my interpretation.

So yes, I do consider myself submissive to Set in a way. But what does this really mean? Set does not exactly show up and give me a list of orders that I am expected to follow. He has no need for rulebooks or commandments. If He wants me to do something, it is easy enough for Him to make me do it, whether I consciously realize I am doing what He wants or not. The idea of being submissive to a deity, for me, does not mean that one becomes a slave who is whipped and bossed around; instead, it means that I try to live my life according to what that deity represents as much as possible, that I simultaneously surrender my identity to it and thereby strengthen my true identity, and that I accept the Will of that deity and my own Will as being one and the same Will, at a divine level. ("As above, so below" - and I am using the term "Will" here in the same way that Aleister Crowley did.)

I hope this makes sense (Set knows it's a lot to digest!), and I hope it does not come across as presumptuous to anyone.

That makes perfect sense, to me anyway :). Anyway, back to the OP, I have no trouble submitting to the Will of Ereshkigal, being that, from a Sumerian POV, humans are the slaves of the Gods (BTW, that doesn't mean Sumerians were, or are, pushovers, it just means they submit to their God(s), but, are quite individual, and know what they want, in real, day-to-day, life). I want to try and live my life according to what Ereshkigal represents too, much like what Darth Brooks said. I haven't looked much into mysticism yet, but, I do like what Darth Brooks said.

Hope that made some sense.

[KenazFilan]

The idea that Deity requires our permission before making changes in our lives, or that the Gods won't order us around if it suits Their needs, is a modern one. Historical and mythological records suggest that submission to the Divine was the norm: while a bit of bargaining and complaining was acceptable in many cultures, there was generally a fine line between that and hubris... which was bad for your health and the health of your family, fellow villagers, and anyone around you.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I hope this makes sense.

What would help make sense , for me , Darth , is you not abbreviating things , such as RHP , and LHP...

I have no idea WTF those are...Thank you...

( Though , I do figure , most here , know WTF means...:bigredgri )

[Agaliha]

What would help make sense , for me , Darth , is you not abbreviating things , such as RHP , and LHP...
I have no idea WTF those are...Thank you...
( Though , I do figure , most here , know WTF means...:bigredgri )

RHP = Right Handed Path(s)
LHP = Left Handed Path(s)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path

Satanism, for example would be a LHP.
Christianity would be a RHP.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

RHP = Right Handed Path(s)
LHP = Left Handed Path(s)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path

Satanism, for example would be a LHP.
Christianity would be a RHP.

Thank you Agaliha...

This is where I am a fan of Philosophia's signature :

"I am anti text talk...spell out your damn words"

( No insult , Darth ! )

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hmmm...do I submit ?

I submit , only when I press the post submit reply button...

Therefore , if it is to be considered as such...I only "submit"
to the MW site god and goddess...:bigredgri

All others I co - work with , by mutual arrangement...

[Darth Brooks]

( No insult , Darth ! )

None taken. :)

[HetHert]

I submit, on certain levels, to the current that resides in the Universe...the biorhythems of life...the Osiris. And I do submit to the forces/Dieties as they6 reside within and outside of myself. I submit so I may know them intimately. I submit so I can learn to harmonize them within myself. Without a submission to "them" can one truely receive what they are teaching?

The receptive principle accepts and receives the active...reception in a way is submission.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Without a submission to "them" can one truely receive what they are teaching?

The receptive principle accepts and receives the active...reception in a way is submission.


Hmmm...no weirdness , HetHert...you have every
right to that view for yourself...but I do not agree , for myself...

I would call it a unifying act...not submission...

And the information known , thru integration...

Slot A does not submit to Tab B...it cojoins...:bigredgri

[Æon Flux]

submission - the act of submitting; usually surrendering power to another
submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness
submission - an agreement between parties in a dispute to abide by the decision of an arbiter

so many meanings, so many answers.

In my opinion deities do what they want to do, and submission is usually something that is dependent on the deity itself and the relationship you have with it.
Me, for one, would "submit" to live with the whimsical nature of a deity, or the deity's "suggestions" if I was inclined to find my patron deity.

[Thunder]

Submit to my deity? I do not believe in deities at all. Satanism, Christianity, Buddhism, Gods, Goddesses….RHPs, LHPs, As far as I am concerned they are all WHPs. I have never seen substantive evidence that any such gods exist or ever did. Our reliance upon such constructs is a function of our own inability to accept the fact that we are a cosmic accident and that we are all alone out here. Submit to something that doesn’t exist??? I pee myself laughing … shit, ever try to get pee out of feathers?

[Infinite Grey]

Evidence of his/her/its/their existence for starters... a reason to submit would be the next step.

[HetHert]

Hmmm...no weirdness , HetHert...you have every
right to that view for yourself...but I do not agree , for myself...

I would call it a unifying act...not submission...

And the information known , thru integration...

Slot A does not submit to Tab B...it cojoins...:bigredgri

Lets look at the definition of submission...

sub·mit (shttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifb-mhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits
v.tr. 1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.
3. To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at propose (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/propose).
4. To offer as a proposition or contention: I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.

v.intr. 1. To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/yield).
2. To allow oneself to be subjected to something.

Njorum said it very well. #2 and in some respects #3 (to be judged Ma'at) in the definition of submission are the energy of the word I'm aligning with.

Alchemy of the spirit is a process I submit to freely. I engage it and I yield to what it must do to turn this lead to gold. I freely admit I'm still a work in process and as with all mediums, it submits to the force and the will of the artist. In this case the artist is the Universe and all it's forces and I am its clay. I submit to the higher in myself when my ego begins to get in the way. It is still not an inherant harmony within myself.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Terminology differences...perhaps also conceptual...

I do not subject , nor allow myself to be subjected to a process...

I create , and involve myself in process...

And for me , ego is the most powerful tool we have , on the
physical plane , for grounding currents of energy...

I am a Lexophilian , and meme artist , and metaprogrammer
of my consciousness , utilizing language...

Therefore , myself , I would never choose to use the word submit ,
in reference to my consciousness state...

We are differing in this , perhaps...no problem...:thumbsup:

[HetHert]

Terminology differences...perhaps also conceptual...

I do not subject , nor allow myself to be subjected to a process...

I create , and involve myself in process...

And for me , ego is the most powerful tool we have , on the
physical plane , for grounding currents of energy...

I am a Lexophilian , and meme artist , and metaprogrammer
of my consciousness , utilizing language...

Therefore , myself , I would never choose to use the word submit ,
in reference to my consciousness state...

We are differing in this , perhaps...no problem...:thumbsup:

Absolutely!! I agree that without ego power is lost.

When you began your path were you always in control of your ego? How do you view Ego in the grand scheme of self and it's relation to the Diety? I have encountered many a philosophy on the presence and uses of Ego. It's still an aspect I thrive to reconcile, if that makes sense. I don't know if this pertains to the thread and I certainly don't want to derail but I would love to hear your input.

Also was there ever a time you did submit to Diety in your pathworking?

Are there any positive actions that are derived from submission in your understanding and use of the word?

I don't mind the differing...it's the expounding I'm after. I think you have very powerful methods and some are right in line with my own views. It's the one's that we differ on that intrigue me most. :mmm:

[~Audra~]

i don't submit...i listen to advice and learn what i can through trial and error and out of personal interest...this is one of the first things i learned and loved about my tradition/path: you are ONE with deity, being taught by them, you work WITH them, not they IN you, who ever they are....deity resides within, so being submissive would be, IMO, submitting to ones self...

they who are wiser/older/smarter than i am have earned my ears and my respect, as they have "been there, done that" and i would be a fool not to take heed when they are speaking to me...this doesn't mean that i have to agree...i think that's why there are so many to listen to, learn from...so many different aspects for all the different people in the world...when we study deity, do we not see that they were once VERY human and made awful (or not so awful) mistakes...we have much to learn before our spiral completes...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hmmm...

Control...interesting word , as that brings in Gematria , and
metaprogramming for me...in direct relation to the thread topic...

In the code system I utilize , Control has a number value of 449...

So does the word Respect , equal 449...

So that brings me back to the word Submit...:bigredgri

It is a form of Control...I choose Respect , not Control...

Example...even here...on MW...no Respect , there is Control...

In answer to your question...I was always , from a very young
age Aware of my ego...and it always felt right...asserting myself ,
no self deprecation , no submission...

Did not make it easy with family , religion , school...

Yet I refused to "submit"...

I knew , in my soul , it was not right for me...there was another way...
there had to be...just had to , in my consciousness...

Ego , and Deity ?

The path of Devotion...ego is dissolved into deity...becomes deity

The path of Knowledge...ego is deity...remembers itself...

I am sure you can figure out which path I choose...:uhhuhuh:

Now...interestingly , in Gematria...

Ego = 113

Stone Wall = 112

Current = 113

The Same As , Alike = 113

God ( Runic ) + God ( Hebrew ) = 113

So...How does one pass through the Stone Wall ?

By becoming the same vibration as the stone wall...:bigredgri



quote=HetHert;3810262]Absolutely!! I agree that without ego power is lost.

When you began your path were you always in control of your ego? How do you view Ego in the grand scheme of self and it's relation to the Diety? I have encountered many a philosophy on the presence and uses of Ego. It's still an aspect I thrive to reconcile, if that makes sense. I don't know if this pertains to the thread and I certainly don't want to derail but I would love to hear your input.

Also was there ever a time you did submit to Diety in your pathworking?

Are there any positive actions that are derived from submission in your understanding and use of the word?

I don't mind the differing...it's the expounding I'm after. I think you have very powerful methods and some are right in line with my own views. It's the one's that we differ on that intrigue me most. :mmm:[/quote]

[Deerwoman]

I've found the Gods are generally not so subtle. If I'm directed to do something I do it - it's served me very well. I'm a strong believer in fate and The Fates. There's no point fighting them as they always win out in the end, or maybe they'll abandon your thread, which is worse in my beliefs.

How far am I willing to submit? Would I give my body, soul, and life over to a deity? Yes I would, there is power and strength in surrendering yourself, being an instrument of the Gods.


Translation of "The Witches' Charm" from the Orkney Islands:

O' Master King of all that's ill,
Come fill me with the witch's Skill,
And I shall serve with all my will.
Trow take me if I sin!
Trow take me if I fly!
Trow take me when I cannot!
Come take me now, and take me all,
Take lights and liver, organs and feet,
Take me, take me, now I say,
From the brow of the head, to the tip of the toe.
Take all that's out and in of me.
Take hair and hide and all to thee.
Take heart, and horns, flesh, blood and bones,
Take all between the seven stones,
In the name of the great dark witch!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Actually , I remember from my very young years , reading some myths ,
where some battled the will of the gods , and won ...

They are only there as quantum boundary constraints , and
servitors for the universal forces...IMO , IME , and IMK...

( IMO = in my opinion , IME = in my experience ,
IMK = in my knowledge , for translation purposes )

However , if you choose to believe , or have experienced them
always winning...I cannot argue , nor would I want to , your
experience...

When I have fought the gods will , I have won the respect to blaze
my path as I will...not as they would choose for me...:bigredgri



I've found the Gods are generally not so subtle. If I'm directed to do something I do it - it's served me very well. I'm a strong believer in fate and The Fates. There's no point fighting them as they always win out in the end, or maybe they'll abandon your thread, which is worse in my beliefs.

How far am I willing to submit? Would I give my body, soul, and life over to a deity? Yes I would, there is power and strength in surrendering yourself, being an instrument of the Gods.


Translation of "The Witches' Charm" from the Orkney Islands:

O' Master King of all that's ill,
Come fill me with the witch's Skill,
And I shall serve with all my will.
Trow take me if I sin!
Trow take me if I fly!
Trow take me when I cannot!
Come take me now, and take me all,
Take lights and liver, organs and feet,
Take me, take me, now I say,
From the brow of the head, to the tip of the toe.
Take all that's out and in of me.
Take hair and hide and all to thee.
Take heart, and horns, flesh, blood and bones,
Take all between the seven stones,
In the name of the great dark witch!

[Deerwoman]

Actually , I remember from my very young years , reading some myths ,
where some battled the will of the gods , and won ...It was a play by an ancient Greek author, not a myth. In the play the mortals stopped making burnt offerings to the gods and they starved - the mortals won out - what the reason was they were upset for I have forgotten.

Winning? Are we at war with the Gods? I am not.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

It was a play by an ancient Greek author, not a myth. In the play the mortals stopped making burnt offerings to the gods and they starved - the mortals won out - what the reason was they were upset for I have forgotten.

Winning? Are we at war with the Gods? I am not.

Nope...that was not it...never read plays...when I was 6 , until
I was 12...I read 10 books a week...every week...read three sets
of encyclopedias...mythology books , bigger than my schoolbag ,
I lugged home...there was more than one story...can't remember
where...but I read them...and dedicated myself to the path of
refusal to serve...

In that way...yes , if the gods want me to do something , and I
do not agree...and they will not back down...

Let it be war !

Otherwise...I shall just proceed on my path...

As far as the Fates...you are supposed to Weave your own Web...

But until you do...they shall weave it for slackers...IMO , IMK , IME...

( You were the one who brought up it is useless to fight them...)
as per your statement :

(quote )
( There's no point fighting them as they always win out in the end )

[Cassie]

There are some very interesting repies here which I will read through again in more detail.

Long ago, when I used to go to a catholic church, I really hated the idea of submitting to God. That was probably because I was already full of doubts about Christianity, and the Catholic Church isn't the best place for someone who dislikes authority figures in general!

The Goddess I now reguard as my matron deity doesn't really reqire submission, in fact in many ways she embodies personal empowerment. The odd thing is that there are sometimes moments in my rituals, prayers and meditations where I get a sort of emotional feeling that if she wanted me to submit to her will (presuming mine was different) I would do. It is just an emotional thing and I don't honestly know how I would react if a situation came up where I felt my will was different to what she would wish me to do.

[cydira]

Hmm... Submission. It's such an interesting word. It can be used in so many different ways and contexts, even with respect to deities. I suppose I should address this in as complete of a way as I can, because I may manage to bungle what I'm trying to express if I leave something out. Please bear with me as I put my thoughts to paper (electrons??), because this is being written as the thoughts occur to me.

Submission is something that can not happen with out one choosing that position, in my opinion. When one is forced into a position that could be described as submissive, one is subjugated, which is an act of violence and one is then held in thralldom. Submission, on the other hand, one chooses it and can choose to leave the position as well. The distinction is made in the mind. Sure, a submissive may be in some form of bondage, but their bonds rest far lighter then those of a thrall because the submissive accepts their bonds. A thrall will resist them and when tired out from the active resistance will resent them, which is a passive resistance.

Now, putting this into the context of dealing with gods, it is my opinion that when ever one chooses to act as a vessel to convey a portion of the godhead into the world, one is submitting to the god in question. Each time a Wiccan High Priestess Draws Down the Moon or a Wiccan High Priest Draws Down the Sun, they are submitting to the associated gods. The same can be held true for any oracle who consents to serve as a mouthpiece for a deity.

I think that the popular opinion that when one subsumes their will in the face of divine will is an accurate description for submission to the divine, as well. I don't believe, however, that this is the entirety of it. When one is dealing with a person who is clearly under the influence of a deity to the extent that their personality is subsumed (I call that state god-ridden.) then choosing to place yourself into a position of subservience to the person who is god-ridden is also submission to a deity.

I believe that this last form of submission to a god is the most challenging because of the fact that it requires for the person who is engaged in submitting to the god-ridden person to have a high amount of knowledge about the person who is god-ridden and a high amount of knowledge of the deity in question. Also, it requires an enormous amount of trust.

While I am willing to engage in the first two forms as I feel appropriate, I have to say that I've only encountered a handful of occurrences that I am willing to engage in the third form of submission. I don't generally trust people enough not to fake being god-ridden for the sake of a quick power-trip. I've also encountered quite a few people who will do just that.

Now, all of this is coming from the perspective of someone who is a BDSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM) aficionado, preferring the Sub role most of the time.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Just a question , Cydira...

Not a challenge , not disagreeing , with your view , though
I have my own I shall share...

Do you think there are ways you could draw down the power
of those spheres , without attendant , or related deity ?

[Deerwoman]

You were the one who brought up it is useless to fight them...
as per your statement :

(quote )
( There's no point fighting them as they always win out in the end )
Ah I meant fight their suggestions or directions, I see how you got confused. I believe we have some free will, that many choices are laid before us, but I also believe there are certain paths we are meant to walk and the gods help nudge us on to them in not so subtle ways. We have our own choices to make while walking the chosen path, but the path is still there - these are just my personal beliefs in fate however.

I love your reply Cydira, and I too would rather be the one evoking a deity into myself than to trust and submit to someone else who may or may not be possessed. However it of course would depend on the person. If it were one of my teachers I would trust and submit, but a member of my local community - probably not. I too am usually a sub, I love to serve and I do get upset when people don't think that submitting can be empowering too. One of my favorite quotes: "that which submits is not always weak."

[cydira]

Just a question , Cydira...

Not a challenge , not disagreeing , with your view , though
I have my own I shall share...

I recognize that you're not challenging, disagreeing, or other wise taking an aggressive posture towards me. :) Thank you for stating this, however, as it was kind of you to do so. :) I'm interested in learning what your perspective on this is. :)




Do you think there are ways you could draw down the power
of those spheres , without attendant , or related deity ?

Yes, I do think there is. I believe it requires focusing upon those spheres as the physical bodies rather then as representations or embodiments of deities. All things have energy, as such it is possible to align oneself with that energy upon the level of the thing rather then the deities associated with it.

I'm sorry if I phrased that poorly. Let me know and I'll try again. :)

[cydira]

Ah I meant fight their suggestions or directions, I see how you got confused. I believe we have some free will, that many choices are laid before us, but I also believe there are certain paths we are meant to walk and the gods help nudge us on to them in not so subtle ways. We have our own choices to make while walking the chosen path, but the path is still there - these are just my personal beliefs in fate however.


That sounds kinda similar to what I've learned also between my teachers and my own studies.



I love your reply Cydira, and I too would rather be the one evoking a deity into myself than to trust and submit to someone else who may or may not be possessed. However it of course would depend on the person. If it were one of my teachers I would trust and submit, but a member of my local community - probably not. I too am usually a sub, I love to serve and I do get upset when people don't think that submitting can be empowering too. One of my favorite quotes: "that which submits is not always weak."

Thank you!

I've found that the sub aspect of my personality tends to color quite a few different elements of my life. In my case, I've found the entire experience can be summarized by stating that I'm striving to imitate water. Water penetrates gently in some situations and in others it is a truly fearsome force to be faced with. It yeilds to our attempts to enter it under many conditions but throw a man out of an airplane onto it, it'll kill him as surely as if he hit concrete. The trick is knowing when to yield and when not to, I think. *shrugs*

**End Thred Hijack**

:D

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Thank you for your graciousness , Cydira...

Actually , in my Tradition , we have a chant , to achieve
harmonic resonance , with the spheres...different ones ,
for each sphere...

Interestingly...observe the chant , if you will , and see
where a tradition got other levels of meaning from it...

M'Dea

Aerr

Oinn

An

Aniz ( Anis )

Yar

D'hoarnn ( or Horn )

See where Medea , was inferred ?

Interestingly , this sequence , known as our "Mother's Column" ,
has a sum value of the eight symbols that comprise it , of 603...

And it is our chant for "Calling Down The Moon"...

And 604 , in Hebrew Gematria , equals "Blood" , or the word DAM , as Daleth - Mem...and thus , the blood dam...

As we know , Medea , was associated , with "wise blood"...

Now , chanting this sequence , I could focus upon that idea , or
the many layers of each symbol , shape , sonic , or any other
possible multi layered concept , inherently embedded , in the
symbols of the chant...

As our Tradition claims has been done , worldwide...

As we know the symbol with the sonic Dhoarnn...it can
mean white virgin , or regeneration...but it's shape , can
become the crescent moon headress of the High Priestess...

And the symbol with the letter value "M" , can be pronounced
as Monn ( Moon)...( Thus Horn + Moon )

Let alone , by number value...the column also equals , by number
value...

Blood = 44 / 604

Retual = 246

Renewal / New Moon = 312

= 602

So , 602 , 603 , 604...Medea , Crescent Headress , Blood , Moon...

Hmmm...maybe our old key , was a chant , to create harmonic
resonance ? Regardless of the focus on Goddess ?

Perhaps the same with chant to the Sun ?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I can appreciate your view of the gods...it most definitely is
not mine...I know I chose my path , before incarnation...

Nothing to do with gods , nor their nudging...me , and me
alone , chose my path...

As far as this :

"I too am usually a sub, I love to serve and I do get upset when people don't think that submitting can be empowering too."

Most interesting , via perspective , if you , and Cydira can see it ,
as I am an alpha male , of wolf clan...

And both born naturally dominant , and a leader , as well taking
the dominant role , in BDSM...:bigredgri

Funny how it works , isn't it ?




Ah I meant fight their suggestions or directions, I see how you got confused. I believe we have some free will, that many choices are laid before us, but I also believe there are certain paths we are meant to walk and the gods help nudge us on to them in not so subtle ways. We have our own choices to make while walking the chosen path, but the path is still there - these are just my personal beliefs in fate however.

I love your reply Cydira, and I too would rather be the one evoking a deity into myself than to trust and submit to someone else who may or may not be possessed. However it of course would depend on the person. If it were one of my teachers I would trust and submit, but a member of my local community - probably not. I too am usually a sub, I love to serve and I do get upset when people don't think that submitting can be empowering too. One of my favorite quotes: "that which submits is not always weak."

[Whitewolf]

I would not call my relationship with deities a submissive role it is more like a partnership of a friendship. There is give and take on both sides and either can say no. Respect goes along way working in the spirit world just like dealing with the living. Very well said. I totally agree. I feel the same way. It is like a partnership and a friendship with the deities to me.

[RainInanna]

I started thinking about this as a result of something that came up on MWDark and thought it might be an interesting topic here.

To what extent are you willing to submit to the deity you work with? What form does that take? What reservations do you have about it?

Given that I believe the Divine is both immanent and transcendant (as Dianne Sylvan says, "manifest", if I remember correctly), and that our every incarnation is simply our way of bringing the Sacred into the world and dancing it's magic, I would have to say every step we take is "submission" to what the Gods need and want.

[Solya]

Submission is a strange thing. I see my relationships with the deities that are important to me as friendships and sometimes as teacher-student relationships. In this light, I only directly submit to them when I am studying and listening closely to what they tell me. However, my whole life is committed to what they ask of me and in that sense there's a certain kind of submission going on. I feel, however, that they and I understand each other perfectly well... with submission comes a responsibility from the one you submit yourself to...

[cydira]

I can appreciate your view of the gods...it most definitely is
not mine...I know I chose my path , before incarnation...

Nothing to do with gods , nor their nudging...me , and me
alone , chose my path...


I'm of the mind that we all choose our paths, possibly before incarnation or possibly during. I'm of a mind that when we choose our path before we incarnate, there are certain major events that we plan and we'll be pulled towards them, be it consciously or unconsciously. Kinda like having major check points on a map to make sure you're going the correct way when you're orienteering. We can choose to view that pull as either the influence of the gods, or some stirring deep within our souls. *shrugs* That may clarify my perspective on that particular point a bit more. :)



As far as this :

"I too am usually a sub, I love to serve and I do get upset when people don't think that submitting can be empowering too."

Most interesting , via perspective , if you , and Cydira can see it ,
as I am an alpha male , of wolf clan...

And both born naturally dominant , and a leader , as well taking
the dominant role , in BDSM...:bigredgri

Funny how it works , isn't it ?


Yep. I've always thought that the people who have a 'Switch' personality have the easiest time of it all, though. They're comfortable with being in the dominant position or the submissive, which I think helps to make them more responsive. I'd add more but then this would become a full fledged thread hijack rather then a side comment. :hahugh:

[cydira]

Thank you for your graciousness , Cydira...

Actually , in my Tradition , we have a chant , to achieve
harmonic resonance , with the spheres...different ones ,
for each sphere...

Interestingly...observe the chant , if you will , and see
where a tradition got other levels of meaning from it...

M'Dea

Aerr

Oinn

An

Aniz ( Anis )

Yar

D'hoarnn ( or Horn )

See where Medea , was inferred ?

Interestingly , this sequence , known as our "Mother's Column" ,
has a sum value of the eight symbols that comprise it , of 603...

And it is our chant for "Calling Down The Moon"...

And 604 , in Hebrew Gematria , equals "Blood" , or the word DAM , as Daleth - Mem...and thus , the blood dam...

As we know , Medea , was associated , with "wise blood"...

Now , chanting this sequence , I could focus upon that idea , or
the many layers of each symbol , shape , sonic , or any other
possible multi layered concept , inherently embedded , in the
symbols of the chant...

As our Tradition claims has been done , worldwide...

As we know the symbol with the sonic Dhoarnn...it can
mean white virgin , or regeneration...but it's shape , can
become the crescent moon headress of the High Priestess...

And the symbol with the letter value "M" , can be pronounced
as Monn ( Moon)...( Thus Horn + Moon )

Let alone , by number value...the column also equals , by number
value...

Blood = 44 / 604

Retual = 246

Renewal / New Moon = 312

= 602

So , 602 , 603 , 604...Medea , Crescent Headress , Blood , Moon...

Hmmm...maybe our old key , was a chant , to create harmonic
resonance ? Regardless of the focus on Goddess ?


I'd be inclined to agree that it was designed to create that resonance. Any good invocation should do that, in my opinion, because otherwise it's empty words with out context. Context and connection (which can be manifest in resonance) is what makes stuff like magic work, in my opinion. I've found that certain sounds can create the same effect with out spoken word involved at all. *shrugs*



Perhaps the same with chant to the Sun ?

Probably if it's structured the same way. While I don't do much with numerology, the structure of your chant to the Moon does clearly have that quality of resonance.

[9-2-2]

I don't like to call myself "submissive" about anything. I prefer to be a friend to the gods, not another servant.

[Mogget]

Given that I believe the Divine is both immanent and transcendant (as Dianne Sylvan says, "manifest", if I remember correctly), and that our every incarnation is simply our way of bringing the Sacred into the world and dancing it's magic, I would have to say every step we take is "submission" to what the Gods need and want.

Ooooh that says it well enough for me...

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I don't like to call myself "submissive" about anything. I prefer to be a friend to the gods, not another servant.

Holy Shades of Eris !

I agree with this statement , wholeheartedly !

...:bigredgri...

[9-2-2]

Holy Shades of Eris !

I agree with this statement , wholeheartedly !

...:bigredgri...

Indeed! Would you rather be a servant to your best friend and do nothing but clean their whole house and run their errands, or just be their pal, to share your joys, bullshit, and sorrows?

[cydira]

Indeed! Would you rather be a servant to your best friend and do nothing but clean their whole house and run their errands, or just be their pal, to share your joys, bullshit, and sorrows?

if you're married to 'em and happen to be the one that stays home with the rug rat, does that count? :hahugh:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

if you're married to 'em and happen to be the one that stays home with the rug rat, does that count? :hahugh:

Hmmm...Is he a worthy Horned God ?...:fpraise:

Neither the Path of Devotion , nor the Path of Knowledge ,
is for dummies...I am sure you are smart enough to know
whether your God , is deserving...:uhhuhuh:...LOL...

[gillian_greenleaf]

It is surprising to me how strong my emotional reaction was to the title of this forum. It immediately made me angry. That's something I need to think more about.

One of the very first concepts in Christianity that I had problems with was the idea of submission. I can remember as a young person saying the Our Father with eyes open and looking up, refusing to bow my head in submission. I felt that I should be sharing this experience ... seeking oneness with the creator ... rather than baring my neck to the figurative sword. The biblical stories of Abraham and Job also always made me really angry for much the same reasons.

I support the idea of mutual respect. I may choose to engage, to join my energies to the deity, but I never give over the whole of my free will, and I don't believe the goddess asks me to do that.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

In my concept...Goddess wants you to stand on your own two feet
whereas the God wants you to bow down...

I walk between them , with them on either side of me...friends...:bigredgri


It is surprising to me how strong my emotional reaction was to the title of this forum. It immediately made me angry. That's something I need to think more about.

One of the very first concepts in Christianity that I had problems with was the idea of submission. I can remember as a young person saying the Our Father with eyes open and looking up, refusing to bow my head in submission. I felt that I should be sharing this experience ... seeking oneness with the creator ... rather than baring my neck to the figurative sword. The biblical stories of Abraham and Job also always made me really angry for much the same reasons.

I support the idea of mutual respect. I may choose to engage, to join my energies to the deity, but I never give over the whole of my free will, and I don't believe the goddess asks me to do that.

[9-2-2]

It is surprising to me how strong my emotional reaction was to the title of this forum. It immediately made me angry. That's something I need to think more about.

One of the very first concepts in Christianity that I had problems with was the idea of submission. I can remember as a young person saying the Our Father with eyes open and looking up, refusing to bow my head in submission. I felt that I should be sharing this experience ... seeking oneness with the creator ... rather than baring my neck to the figurative sword. The biblical stories of Abraham and Job also always made me really angry for much the same reasons.

I support the idea of mutual respect. I may choose to engage, to join my energies to the deity, but I never give over the whole of my free will, and I don't believe the goddess asks me to do that.

Why hello there. I don't believe we've met! :smileroll

[Thunder]

It is surprising to me how strong my emotional reaction was to the title of this forum. It immediately made me angry. That's something I need to think more about.

One of the very first concepts in Christianity that I had problems with was the idea of submission. I can remember as a young person saying the Our Father with eyes open and looking up, refusing to bow my head in submission. I felt that I should be sharing this experience ... seeking oneness with the creator ... rather than baring my neck to the figurative sword. The biblical stories of Abraham and Job also always made me really angry for much the same reasons.

I support the idea of mutual respect. I may choose to engage, to join my energies to the deity, but I never give over the whole of my free will, and I don't believe the goddess asks me to do that.If I thought for even a moment that there was any such thing as an all powerful god, I would gladly "submit" lest he smite me. However, since my half century plus on this earth has shown me no evidence of such a being... I submit only to my conscience and my lady. Oh yeah.. and Mom... sorry mom.

[cydira]

Hmmm...Is he a worthy Horned God ?...:fpraise:

Neither the Path of Devotion , nor the Path of Knowledge ,
is for dummies...I am sure you are smart enough to know
whether your God , is deserving...:uhhuhuh:...LOL...


hmm.... second wee heathen on the way...


yeah, i think so.

;) :deviltail

:hahugh:

[PhoenixRevival]

I've never been submissive to any form of Deity that I've respected in the morning, if you catch my meaning.

The powers that be, In my POV, are so distant from what we are that I doubt they care if i made myself a divine boot-licker. I'm sure they'd perfer to have an ally over a slave if they did care.

[green aventurine]

I found this a very interesting and useful thread to read. For me also, Teresa summed my feelings on the question the best:

"I would not call my relationship with deities a submissive role it is more like a partnership of a friendship. There is give and take on both sides and either can say no. Respect goes along way working in the spirit world just like dealing with the living"

While I wouldn't want to submit to any being, there are situations when I've "submitted" to my own personal code of ethics and I've done the right thing (as I define it) as opposed to what I've felt like doing.