Leabhar Feasa Rúnda Review

[odubhain]

Leabhar Feasa Rúnda Ogham Correspondences Review

I'm starting this review in the middle of Leabhar Feasa Rúnda (LFR) with its Ogham Correspondences as this is where its own origin story says that it was written and preserved as well as rediscovered. It is in the meanings of the Ogham IMO that truth and knowledge will be revealed or dispelled.

I start with basic Ogham Correspondences that I've derived,associated and discovered from an analysis of the Ogham names found in Lebor Ogaim and in the lists known as Briatharogam. The first meaning will be what I teach. The second will be from LFR and the third series of meanings are those I've compiled from a list of modern neoPagans and neoDruids who use the Ogham in divinations.

Basic Ogham Correspondences

Tree
Ogham Name

Meaning (O'Dubhain)


Meaning (LFR)



Meaning (neoPagan writers)

Birch ***
Beith

Will


Beginning, purification



Happy/Immature,
New Beginnings,
Changes,
Purification,
Vitality,
Power,
Age

Rowan **
Luis

Perspective


Life, vitality, healing



Protection against Psychic
Attack, Life Force,
Sacred Fire,
Insight,
Quickening,
Controlling life,
Protection,
Love,
Spiritual/Fanatical

Alder **
Fern

Contentions


Stability, preservation, resilience



Royalty,
Foundation,
Protection in Magical Conflicts,
Defense,
Ambitious/Impulsive,
Make Choices,
Spirit Guides

Willow **
Sáile

Resistance


Intuition, creativity, fertility



Death,
Wise/Bitter ,
Gain Balance,
Protection against Diseases,
Harmony,
Blessing,
Intuition

Ash
Nuin

Hardihood


Transformation, change



Rebirth,
Peace,
Feeling Bound,
Locked in, Love,
Passage from Inner World to Outer Realms,
Keys to the Future,
Opposition,
Charming/Egocentric.

Hawthorn **
hÚath

Opportunity


Patience, restraint, chastity



Passionate/Ruthless –
Rhiannon - Judgement,
Protection Against All Magics,
The Terrible Hag,
Challenge,
Misfortune,
Held back for awhile,
Chaos,
Dreams.

Oak ***
Duir

Honor


Strength, knowledge, truth



The Doorway to Inner Knowledge,
Use the Keys, Endurance,
Fatherly/Dominating,
Seeking,
Justice,
Security,
Strength

Holly ***
Teine

Principles


Immortality, justice, discipline



Balanced Strength and Power,
Fire, Strife,
Third of ...,
Determined / Insensitive
Cú Chulainn - The Chariot, Balance,
Energy and Guidance

Hazel ***
Coll

Wonder


Learning, meditation, wisdom



Discovery,
Word Wisdom,
Generous/Deceptive,
Creative Energies,
Beauty,
Creativity


Apple ***
Queart

Harmony


Love, attraction, beauty, perfection



A Choice is made,
Rebirth and Eternal Life,
Motherly/Weak-willed Protection,
Beauty,
Eternity

Vine
Muin

Law, Experience


Joy, abundance, excess



Effort,
Inner Development,
Sympathetic/Dependent,
Inwardness,
Assimilation for Inner Development,
Mortality.

Ivy ***
Gort

Knowledge, Skill


Learning, achievement



Time of Reflection,
Satisfaction,
Ambitious/Lazy,
Development,
Immortality,
Changes for Growth,
Earth Grounded Knowledge

Reed, Broom ***
Ngetal

Modesty


Harmony, fulfillment, cleansing



Healing,
Harmony,
Adaptable/Indecisive,
Upsets and Surprises,
Riches,
Maintainer of Order

Blackthorn **
Straif

Clarity


Destruction, finality, punishment



Anger,
Confusion,
Resentment,
Power in Visible/Invisible World,
Overcoming Resistance,
Honest/Deceptive,
Control,
Coercion

Elder
Ruis

Balance, Understanding


Prophecy, mystery, enchantment



Inspiration,
End of Cycle or Problem,
Balance of Threes,
Time-Existence-Goddess,
Change,
Fate,
Intelligent/Unfortunate

Silver Fir, Elm
Ailm

Teachings, Awareness


Regeneration, renewal



Learn from the past,
Misery,
Gain Higher Perceptions and Strength,
Outgoing/Introverted ,
Objectivity,
Sovereignty

Furze
Ohn

Eloquence, Inspiration


Youth, awakening vigor



Information for Change,
Travel,
Wisdom,
Synthesis,
Strength in the Face of Adversity,
Prospering/Vain

Heather
Ur

Reflection, Contemplation


Maturity, success, resolve



Fear, Carefree/ Superficial,
Gateway,
Passion,
Healing,
Spiritual Development,
Gain,
Good Luck,
Renewal

Aspen *
Edadh

Judgment, Insight


Old age, frailty, remembrance



Overcoming,
Problems,
Doubts,
Fears,
Caring/Insecure,
The Power of the Will,
Insight

Yew ***
Idadh

Mastery


Death, transformation, eternity



Change in Life or Attitude,
Death, Immortality,
Transformation,
Wisdom,
The Unity of Life and Death,
Enduring/ Sanguine

I have not included the Forfedha in this review because it is not provided in Leabhar Feasa Rúnda. I have rated the relative agreement of the correspondences above to my own understanding for the Ogham using *** for the highest correlation and nothing for the lowest or no correlation. These correspondences should have greater and more detailed discussions to see what merit is to be found in any of their meanings relative to an Irish Druidic context and tradition.

[odubhain]

A General Overview and Presentation of the Contents of Leabhar Feasa Rúnda

A new book on Druid secrets and a hidden history of pre-Christian Gaelic traditions called Leabhar Feasa Rúnda has been published by Steven Akins, who is also its author. This book has prompted many to attack it and the author viciously at times. I’ve been amazed at the strength of some of the attacks even when those making the attacks have not read the book. Let me repeat that. The most vehement attackers have not even read the book that they are attacking. My curiosity was aroused even more about the book

I was very wary at first about the book since its sources were not clearly defined and it made some pretty big claims about being a long, lost source for authentic Druid practices and rituals. It also did not help my attitude about the book when I discovered many postings and blog after blog wherein Akins has been called a white supremacist, a neo-Nazi and a racist as well as a liar by those attacking him and the new book. While tracking down what had been written online and after reading comments from Steven Akins on the OBOD and Mysticwicks forums, I determined that I would seek him out to see if his source materials and his work were available to be verified and analyzed. This seemed to be the logical and wise thing to do as I live about 90 miles from where Steven Akins lives in Alabama.

My wife Deborah and I had a very pleasant lunch and meeting with Steven Akins and his son recently (over the Thanksgiving holidays in 2008). During our meeting Steven and I discussed several aspects of the book and how it came to be publish and other matters local to Alabama Paganism and the Druid way, as well as our own families and personal lives. All in all, the discussions were very open and revealing.

Steven presented me with a copy of his book, Leabhar Feasa Rúnda, for review and I've read through it as a first pass. I'm not going to post my impressions of specific items in the book in these opening remarks but in the later parts of this book review I have discussed many specific items and theories about the book’s provenance and its contents.

My general impression of the book's contents is that much of it follows histories and stories contained within other works known to be authentic to Irish traditions and Lebor Gabála and Cath Mage Tuired. It departs from these works in its opening preface attributed to Ollamh Fodla, a mythical and famous king of Ireland during the early Iron Age. It also has an Irish Pagan creation story and contains embellishments to the traditions around how the Sons of Mil and the Tuatha Dé Danann came to Ireland. There are also a few deity names that seem unusual and these will need to be discussed. Some areas of the book that strike me as peculiar because of the roles and relationships of the main characters, deities and other beings, while there are other parts of the book that seem very much to be expected in an Irish or Gaelic tradition. These are the stories of how the various groups of people and deities like the Neímheadhians, the Pathalonians, the Tuatha Dé Danann, and the Sons of Mil all came to Ireland. The invasion/coming of the expedition led by Cesar is called the “Voyage of Fiontan” in the book.

The book has two major parts to it:

The first part of the book relates the History of Ireland from the creation of the world until the coming to Ireland of the Sons of Mil (in twelve chapters).

The creation story mirrors other Indo-European creation stories that describe a great abyss or emptiness known as the goddess Domnann who had existed always. Out of her darkness came Net, god of disruption, who by his will alone caused matter and form to take shape. Into the void between these was born Ernmas, the goddess of the earth and Tuireann, the god of the sky. From the mating of these original parents were born Bel, the god of the Sun and Danand, the goddess of the Moon. From the union of the Sun and the Moon sprang the gods who were originally known as the Áes Sídhe and later as the Tuatha Dé Danann. Also from the union of Earth and Sky were formed the Fomoraige (i.e. Fomorii). They were cast out of paradise into the sea by Tuireann because of their evil ways and their hideous appearance. These beings did not perish under the sea making their way to their home in Lochlann.

Humans are said to be the offspring of Brighid and Cearna, the Horned God. Because this union displease Tuireann, he cast the humans out of the Land of the Ever Young and they lived with death from that day onward. Tuireann punished Brighid for her part in this birth of humanity by giving her over to the land of the dead from Samhain to Imbolc where she dwells as a hideous old hag, and yet he could not bear to be without her always, so she was allowed to inhabit Tir nan’Og from Imbolc to Samhain. Cearna became the master of the serpents as a reminder of this ever cycling existence from death to life to death again. In this part of the tale we see and echo of Paradise lost and perhaps a parallel of the Greek legend of Persephone who dwelled in Hades part of the year and brought prosperity back to the earth during the spring and summer.

The birth land of the gods is called Tir nan’Og and it is a paradise for all until the coming of two human sailors, Iobath and his son Baath, who while voyaging to Locklann in the north, had been blown across the western sea by a great storm to land on the blessed isle of the gods. They settled there and found wives so that the sons of men and the daughters of the gods established new families of people who were sometimes humans and other times more like the gods. This new people of gods and not gods studies all the occult arts, science and the ways of Druidry. This angered the other race of elder beings that were called the Fomoraige. The Fomoraige grew in jealousy of the marriage of humans to the gods and the Fomoraige determined that they would also mate with the women of the Tuatha Dé. Since the Fomoraige were misshapen and demon-like in their appearance they cast glamour about one of their kings, Elatha, so that he would seem to be a shining, handsome man-god.

The reason for the Tuatha Dé Danann coming to Ireland from Tir nan’Og is said to be because Elatha of the Formoraig lay with Eriu of the Tuatha Dé and her having a child who was named Bress. This child was said to be an abomination in the eyes of Tuirenn, lord of thunder and ruler of that land. Manannán mac Lir was given the land of Tir nan’Og which he caused to sink under the waves so that it disappeared and was changed into Tir fo Thonn (the Land Beneath the Waves). This story seems an echo of Atlantis.

The story of the coming of Lugh from Cath Maige Tuired (the Second Battle of Moytura) is expanded slightly and expressed more in terms of dialog than as a narrative account. The saga of the Sons of Tuirenn is given along with additional details of their relationship with one another and their father.

A second part of the book contains items that are described as “the Ways of Magic” and contains arts and enchantments of Druidry that came to Ollamh Fodla through a series of visions. There are sections with incantations and spells within them as well as Ogham correspondences and talismans. The talismans are mainly formed as Name Ogham which seem similar to the one example given in the Book of Ballymote's Ogham tract. The names provided are variations of deities, places or object names from the accepted Irish traditions with possibly a few exceptions and innovations.

The incantations that are presented remind me heavily of Alexander Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica, while the general tone and language of the narrative is purposely modeled by Steven Akins after King James English. This implies that the translation of the German source material is actually a paraphrasing of a translation rather than a scholarly one. I would very much appreciate seeing what the German text that he posted here on Mysticwicks says in a direct translation by a German scholar.

Rituals and other magical constructions such as consecrations, oils, names, baptisms and effigies are covered. I will not discuss all these matters specifically or attempt to analyze them here in this review. They give the appearance of being fairly typical for Gaelic folk magic and ritual practice. Many of them remind me of Items found in Alexander Carmichael’s Carmina Gadelica or in John Gregorson Campbell’s Gaelic Otherworld .

I have been given files and reproductions of some of the German source texts that are said by Steven Akins to have been mailed to him by Henry Thorenson’s; widow, Evelyn. Akins seems to be very open and honest about what he's attempted to do with the materials he received for Leabhar Feasa Rúnda. How well he has succeeded and what can be learned from his efforts and the sources remains open to further analysis.

I can say from a face to face meeting with the man and many email exchanges that he is a pleasant person with whom to visit and who has been very forthright with me concerning what and how he produced the book that is the subject of this controversy, mainly the Leabhar Feasa Rúnda. Much more will be learned about the book, its author and its source materials in open and frank discussions about it IMO rather then through poorly informed attacks directed at only parts of it without due consideration of all the factors that went into its construction. Simply put, to evaluate the book, one must read it and study what it says as well as investigate the ways that the book was said to be transmitted. The people who have held these copies and translations of the book must also be understood to better understand possible influence by them on its knowledge and information.

There are many places for errors to occur even when the best intentions are embraced. Each potential source could introduce errors. Every translation or paraphrase will be subjective no matter how stringent an attempt is made for objectivity. That is why such works should be evaluated across the board of their creation and their lives. One should consider the motives of the many hands that have come to bear in writing the book over and over again. As a minimum, the book could be an actual Irish text of unknown provenance that passed through the hands of several churchmen and Medieval magicians as well as politicians and eventually the occult services of the Third Reich, Each of these occurrences could introduce "telephone" types of errors in their passage from hand to hand or ear to ear.

There's a lot to discuss about the book and how it came to be in the possession of Steven Akins, even the pitfalls of how he chose to translate, paraphrase and stylize the book, but let me say now that I found Steven Akins to not be a neo-Nazi, a skin head, a white supremacist or a hard core racist. He does have his views on such things, as do we all and he even expressed some of them with me in person and online when directly questioned about them. He doesn't seem to have any agendas along those lines in the book and gives every assurance of being a person who came into possession of some information that he wanted to share with others. He has copies of the German text, and the original envelope in which it was mailed to him by Henry Thorenson’s wife, Evelyn. Of course, he would not be averse to making some money for the work he's done in publishing this book. That's something I can appreciate and I hope that others who write and read books about our traditions can also understand. He does not expect to make a great deal of money based on how other non-fiction Pagan books sell on the market these days and states plainly to all who would hear that his primary motivation in publishing Leabhar Feasa Rúnda is to strengthen our pre-Christian, Pagan roots and traditions.

How well Akins succeeds in this task will be shaped by verifying the provenance of how the book materials came to be in the hands of SS officer Heinrich Thorenson, how Akins received it from Evelyn Thorenson and the success and fidelity of how a translated English introduction to the materials:

Akins says that he has translated the research/translations/versions that came out of the Third Reich’s lust for occult history and information. At Akins suggestion and with his assistance I’ve tried to track down possible works of the past that could be the sources used by Thorenson and the SS occult research department. He are some possible sources for the book as it passed through history according to Thorenson’s account in his German and English translated introduction to the materials.

The original source may well be lost and even if it was here to be translated directly, the tales and traditions within it would most probably never be fully accepted by academics and skeptics. That’s the territory that an author who claims to have discovered a new source has to traverse nowadays. There will be attacks on the credibility of the author, on the credibility and accuracy of the German source, on the provenance of all the copies and transmission of the book and on the actual source material within the various texts themselves. This is to be expected and welcomed when it burns away the dross from what could be new light on our traditions. If too much is burned away because the book or its author has been false, then truth will suffer greatly. If no critical judgment and analysis is used by the reader or the reviewing scholars then even truth will be treated as a lie, a hoax and a fraud. Somewhere in the middle of all this is to be found a pre-Christian Gaelic tradition that can become a seed for new traditions and a greater magic in the life of each of us. It is each of us who must determine if foolishness yields to a sage or if wisdom has flown.

I liked the book in its narrative style though the King James English style used in the first part about the histories put me off a bit. The stories of part one that follow the traditions I already know were easy reading. The parts that departed greatly like the creation story, gave me pause for concern. This is not a complete loss for me no matter where the truth is to be found as I am encouraged to research further on my own to verify what is presented or to find a way that rings more truly for me. One’s own imbas might be the illuminating knowledge that does this. Imbas alone will not suffice as it is the work of experience, inquiry and investigation that will build a house of true wisdom. It is this strenuous and disciplined work of vocation that turns inspiration into gold as we orient and do the work of the Three Cauldrons.

At the worst, the book is the understandings and ideas of Steven Akins and is not really based on prior writings other than those of modern neoPaganism with a smattering of Alexander Carmichael’s and other Gaelic writers’ works thrown into the mix. It would then be fiction (or Akins’ personal views) presented as truth in the manner of 21LOM by Douglas Monroe. I tend to believe that there was a prior source from which Steven Akins derived the LFR book in its present form. That is said with all the caveats on authenticity that come out of its origins and passage through many hands and lands.

At the best, the book could be a faithful reporting of Ollamh Fodla's visionary imbas and wisdom that was discovered by the Druid Mug Roith. Practically speaking, we'll never know objectively if that is so even if the purported Ogham staves from Ollamh Fodla's grave were presented and verified as authentic by Irish archaeological and linguistic authorities. The book could be an Irish text of unknown provenance but until we actually have an Irish text that purports to be that, we'll have to discuss the German text as it's been presented online along with the actual published version called the Leabhar Feasa Rúnda. I think the price of the book is cheap for the very reason that it will give a person some tools for doing their own work as well as a kind of guide for constructing their own book of secret wisdom.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

Steven Akins and Hitler as a Hero

After I was alerted to the fact that Steven Akins lists Hitler as one of his heroes on his MySpace page, I browsed the page and verified this to be true. I then emailed him regarding this controversial listing and his replies to me basically indicated that Steven numbers among those who think that the various races of humankind should always be separate in their lives, relationships, cultures and personal affections. Let me make it clear that these are not my personal beliefs nor do I embrace them. They indicate that this bias could influence his writings and they do at times, however, the text of LFR seems to be centered around the Irish's own beliefs and tradition rather than his personal convictions and beliefs. I did not find racism, supremacist or Nazi beliefs and practices in the book itself.

I don't think that Steven Akins believes himself to be a neoNazi or a racist. He considers himself to be a Southerner, a traditionalist and a Gael (or at least a person of Gaelic descent). In my almost 60 years of living, I've known and have been friends with many people with whom I do not share their ideologies, so long as they behave reasonably and leave room for tolerance. In the South, as well as many other parts of the United States,there was a time when one could find few who were of a different "ilk." Nowadays, things are much better though obviously there is much room for improvement and progress regarding basic human behavior and regard for one another. I think Steven is the kind of person who respects others, no matter what his professed admiration and leanings are regarding race, culture or tradition. That's my impression based on the short time that I've known him and from face to face interactions.

Searles O'Dubhain

[skilly-nilly]

I have not included the Forfedha in this review because it is not provided in Leabhar Feasa Rúnda. I have rated the relative agreement of the correspondences above to my own understanding for the Ogham using *** for the highest correlation and nothing for the lowest or no correlation.

Do you use the forfeda?

What did you derive your correspondences from?

[odubhain]

Do you use the forfeda?

Yes. The forfedha are said to be a later introduction but they were definitely used by the Filidh in any event. Later or earlier have no importance regarding meaning or usefulness within the overall system. I see the forfedha as being more of a division (or conversely as an expansion) of the meanings rather than as the "meat and potatoes" of the meanings.


What did you derive your correspondences from?

The Traditional Tales (mainly Irish, Gaelic, Manx, Welsh and Breton)
The Briatharogam
The Stream Strand of Ferchertne
Fionn's Window
Roigne's Wheel Ogham
Certogam
Sanscrit Corespondences
Runic Correspondences
The Laws of Magic as expressed in Real Magic by Isaac Bonewits

These are in no particular order of relative importance though the traditional tales and the Briatharogam have strong correspondences at times.

Searles O'Dubhain

[skilly-nilly]

Thank you very much.

[Seren_]

I found another review of the book:

http://clare-vaughn.livejournal.com/2009/01/05/

This bit was of particular interest, I think:


If this book is to be believed, the ancient Irish used the Wiccan pentagram, did magic based on the five elements of Air, Fire, Water, Earth, and Spirit, placed the four cities of the Tuatha De at the four quarters of Ireland, used prayers from the (19th century Scottish) Carmina Gadelica, made ogham talismans using designs from the Key of Solomon, named the festival of Samhain after the (nonexistent and misspelled) god Samthainn or Cerna, used a version of the Druid Prayer (presumably having had foreknowledge of the works of the 18th century Welsh druid Iolo Morganwg), worshiped The Goddess, and made incenses out of materials such as aloeswood, galbanum, and saffron.

Is this true?

[odubhain]

I found another review of the book:

http://clare-vaughn.livejournal.com/2009/01/05/

This bit was of particular interest, I think:

[quote]If this book is to be believed, the ancient Irish used the Wiccan pentagram, did magic based on the five elements of Air, Fire, Water, Earth, and Spirit,

The rituals in LFR use the 4 or five elements that are typically used by a lot of practices in the Western traditions. To me this is inconclusive about its dating or authenticity.

In the LFR the pentagram is used to represent the spirit in earth in one ritual action while the "circle of conjuration" is also formed as a pentagram which is said to represent the five streams of knowledge that flow from the well of wisdom. The names of the four magical cities of Findias, Gorias, Murias and Falias are inscribed on the cardinal points of the circle that encloses the pentagram. I find this to show a ceremonial magical influence though I also see the four magical cities as being associated with directions. I have them in a different order. The Lebor Gabala (I think this is where I saw this) doesn't mention this order specifically but I believe in one place it does seem to say that Murias is in the south. William Sharp (a.k.a. Fiona Macleod who is by no means a scholarly reference though perhaps a mystical one) claims a reference to the cardinal point about these cities in a work of his called "Dirge of the Four Cities."


There are four cities that no mortal eye has seen but that the soul knows: these are Gorias, that is in the east; and Finias, that is in the south ; and Murias, that is in the west; and Falias, that is in the north. And the symbol of Falias is the stone of death, which is crowned with pale fire. And the symbol of Gorias is the dividing sword. And the symbol of Finias is a spear. And the symbol of Murias is a hollow that is filled with water and fading light.

THE LITTLE BOOK OF THE GREAT ENCHANTMENT.

No where does LFR say that this circle is a Wiccan circle.


placed the four cities of the Tuatha De at the four quarters of Ireland,

Actually, LFR places these four cities at the quarters of Tir nan'Og.


used prayers from the (19th century Scottish) Carmina Gadelica,

Some of the ritual words and spells sound like they are modeled after Carmina Gadelica but the first part's English sounds like the King James Bible. Akins told me he had done these things on purpose since his translation of the German was not perfect and the English version he'd produced needed to be placed in a more readable form and that's what he did.


made ogham talismans using designs from the Key of Solomon,

True enough but they also look like the "Name Ogham" in the Book of Ballymote, so this is not compelling. I know for a fact that Ogham writing and talismans have been used in other magical traditions like the OTO for instance. This in no way negates their earlier usage.


named the festival of Samhain after the (nonexistent and misspelled) god Samthainn or Cerna,

It does say that Samhain honors Samthainn or Cearna and that another name for this deity is Donn, the god of the dead. I don't think it actually says that Samhain is named for Samthainn. There is a passage mound that is named the Mound of Cearna so that could be a deity name though that's inconclusive. The name Samthainn is one I've never heard though I have see a later folktale where one of the Cian's two brothers is called Samhain.


used a version of the Druid Prayer (presumably having had foreknowledge of the works of the 18th century Welsh druid Iolo Morganwg),

I've seen many versions of this prayer in other works besides Iolo's. It's preence here seems to indicate that somewhere along the line someone slipped in a few things. It doesn't have to have been Akins who did this. Any number of folks from "Mug Roith" to John Dee and Kelly to Thorenson or Akins could have done it. The book is not perfect but having the Druid Prayer in it by Iolo is no worse that OBOD using it. Besides this is what it says in LFR on page 100:

"Impart, O Oghma, thy power,
And in thy power, wisdom;
And in wisdom, enlightenment;
And in Enlightenment, truth;
And in truth, justice;
And in justice, love;
And in love, the blessings of the gods;
And in the blessings of the gods, all goodness."

It kind of reminds me of my take on the Cauldron of Vocation:

"My Chants are from the Cauldron of Vocation
Graceful inspiration,
Ever-growing experience,
Streams of imbas from the milk of learning.
It is the wave of knowledge,
The gathering of the wise,
The truth of kingship,
The elevation of the unlearned,
The skillful use of Ogham,
Imbas Forosnai,
Blemishing satire,
Synchronization of tradition,
Vine of learning,
Garden of law,
Grammar of measured speech,
Rhythmic chanting,
Dissemination of wisdom,
Gifts of the nobility,
Elevation of the ordinary,
Honoring of names,
Poetry of praise,
By application of the laws,
Evaluating of the many,
Acknowledgement of the highest ranks,
Bright words for the wise,
With streams of wisdom,
Which is excellently brewed,
From the roots of the tree of knowledge,
And bestows its gifts following effort,
And the persistence of effort,
Which the ecstasy of poetry creates,
And the joys of life orient,
And the great sorrows of life turn.
It is an eternity of creation and mastery,
The shield of the wise.
My chants are of the Cauldron of Vocation."


worshiped The Goddess,

There is one ritual where the word Goddess is used. I just assumed that Akins used this from habit. The Irish Celts and Druids had many goddesses that were worshipped and some of them were seen as the Mother Goddess of all Ireland.


and made incenses out of materials such as aloeswood, galbanum, and saffron.

I think I've seen all these in lists of incenses that were made. Keep in mind that we are working from a translation from Ogham to Irish to German to English. I pass no judgements on whether these are valid or not as it's not really important to me. I would rarely use any type of medieval, ancient or magical incense or herbal concoction that had not either been a long established part of traditional practice or had been independently verified as safe or appropriate by modern authorities.

At the end of the day, we will find inaccuracies, inclusions and misinterpretations in the material of LFR. What needs to be done is to consider its differences and see if anything can be learned from it and its different POV. There is much more in LFR that is consistent with Irish tradition than has so far been mentioned here to the point that the work still stands as a worthwhile read IMO whether one agrees with its provenance, its author's views, its authenticity or its revelations.


Is this true?

What I've presented above is what I know about it.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

Phillip Shallcrass of the British Druid Order also wrote a review for the LFR:
http://www.druidry.co.uk/forum/post1032.html#p1032

I read the review and certainly agree with Philip Shallcrass that Steven Akins has introduced some modern Pagan and even Wiccan ideas into some authentic Irish traditional materials,. The questions that this raises should be addressed by Akins himself but he unfortunately cannot do that here. I'll make the effort to email him and see if he has explanations. I do know that he interpreted quite a bit from the German versions he used for source materials. How objective or subjective those interpretations were is anyone's guess without seeing all the German source. Much of that which has been provided came from here before Steven Akins was suspended from posting. I also know he reads these threads because he told me that he does in an email, so maybe he will get in touch with me about this. Glossing or reinterpreting material has been happening since humans first discovered how to write and translate.

LFR is not a Pagan Bible but it is food for thought in spite of people's views about other people's views. I don't embrace Steven Akins views on some things nowadays when I may have embraced some of them 40 to 50 years ago in a different time and culture. In that approach to these things I would have been in the majority then as I hope I am with different views now. Times and most people have changed. The things children are taught or learn have certainly changed as well. Somepeople have not changed their views as much as others. These people are very conservative and even right wing.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

It does say that Samhain honors Samtainn or Cearna and that another name for this deity is Donn, the god of the dead. I don't think it actually says that Samhain is named for Samthainn. There is a passage mound that is named the Mound of Cearna so that could be a deity name though that's inconclusive. The name Samthainn is one I've never heard though I have see a later folktale where one of the Cian's two brothers is called Samhain.


I looked further into the folktale and in some versions of it Samthainn is the name used.

Lady Gregory's version (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/gafm05.htm)

A Dictionary of Celtic Mythology by James MacKillop from Encyclopedia.com (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/gafm/gafm05.htm)

This seems to imply that the name used in LFR is of a later time period though conversely it could mean that the name survived in the folklore where it was removed from the literature.


I've seen many versions of this prayer in other works besides Iolo's. It's presence here seems to indicate that somewhere along the line someone slipped in a few things. It doesn't have to have been Akins who did this. Any number of folks from "Mug Roith" to John Dee and Kelly to Thorenson or Akins could have done it. The book is not perfect but having the Druid Prayer in it by Iolo is no worse that OBOD using it. Besides this is what it says in LFR on page 100:

"Impart, O Oghma, thy power,
And in thy power, wisdom;
And in wisdom, enlightenment;
And in Enlightenment, truth;
And in truth, justice;
And in justice, love;
And in love, the blessings of the gods;
And in the blessings of the gods, all goodness."



I did some more looking on this and the main source for the "Gorsedd Paryer" is Bardda Book I which gives several versions of it. Two are said to be from the Great Book of Margam and the Book of Trahaiarn the Great Poet. Why Iolo gives something like six different versions of this poem is a mystery unless perhaps in this case he actually had sources.

Iolo's Barddas I in the Summerlands Library (http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/library/slideviewer/slideviewer.cgi?list=barddas_1&dir=&config=&refresh=&slide=223&cycle=off&scale=0&design=default&total=255)

At the same time, I'd like to point out that the oldest source for the "Truth Against the World" Druid saying is also Iolo (to my knowledge). Not everything Iolo puts forth is false or made up by Iolo.

All that having been said, much of LFR reminds me of the work of Roderick O'Flaherty and Ogygia. Maybe someone hoaxed the Nazis with an Irish version of LFR? That is another possible source of the German version. Edward Kelly (John Dee's scryer) could have pulled something similar on the Austrian court back in the 16th century. Without the Irish source as a guide one cannot place the book or its works into a period. One can see the obvious influence of AKins in his translation of the German source (i.e. King James English and Alexander Carmichael's translations of Gaelic invocations, prayers and other charms. LFR has its flaws.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Seren_]

Thanks for clarifying that, Searles.

[Nuadu]

This discussion needs more cowbell.

My bad temper at the arguments (Im a hypocrite dyslexic) aside assuming it is a Nazi thing I would guess that rather then the Nazis being hoaxed where the rituals are concerned it could be the usual blend of Masonry and nativism common in the paganism of the day and the inaccuracies in the book could be viewed as anachronisms due to the age of the manuscript rather then lies. Look at W.B. Yeats influence in the Golden Dawn for an example.

heres a little nativism to whet your appetite:

Likelies:

Cerna is a toponym given the sentence.
Carna is a common name throughout Ireland for anywhere with cairns. The name even has its equivolent in foreignese in the Carnes cultural site.

Unliklies:

A male deity in loughcrew.
Loughcrew is situated on Slieve na Caillech - the mountain of the hag. Or more properly the Cailleach a medevil folk memory of the tribal areas Sovereign Goddess.

Over all I would guess that those mistakes are Anachronisms that wouldnt exist if anyone was perpetrating a haox. No more arguing please its a great book well worth an honest read and youd honestly learn more from studying the questions the book raises rather then arguing about them

[Seren_]

This discussion needs more cowbell.

My bad temper at the arguments (Im a hypocrite dyslexic) aside assuming it is a Nazi thing I would guess that rather then the Nazis being hoaxed where the rituals are concerned it could be the usual blend of Masonry and nativism common in the paganism of the day and the inaccuracies in the book could be viewed as anachronisms due to the age of the manuscript rather then lies.

Still and all, Mr Akins is making claims that this is an authentic manuscript, and that will understandably piss a lot of people off. He's also making a lot of other claims that are pissing an awful lot more people off.

He says his claim of authenticity is simply a common marketing strategy to give the book some 'hype', but there are better, more honest ways of selling a book, don't you think? Especially when many of the claims that are made in the book can be referenced to just one manuscript on which it's based, without any corroborating evidence.

[odubhain]

Still and all, Mr Akins is making claims that this is an authentic manuscript, and that will understandably piss a lot of people off. He's also making a lot of other claims that are pissing an awful lot more people off.

He says his claim of authenticity is simply a common marketing strategy to give the book some 'hype', but there are better, more honest ways of selling a book, don't you think? Especially when many of the claims that are made in the book can be referenced to just one manuscript on which it's based, without any corroborating evidence.

It would certainly help his cause if the Old Irish version of the manuscript appeared. Other things that would help would be an independent history from the German side that relates and supports the story told about how it came to be in their hands.

Akins has already said that he paraphrased a lot of the book to make his German to English translation sound better to his ear.

I do think that controversy generates interest in a book but I'd go a different pathway than the one he's taken. However it goes, parts of the book are Ok and no worse than Iolo's work (as stated by Philip Shallcrass of the BDO IIRC). The best parts of the book are the parts we already know however and the questionable parts require additional support.

Of course, some people were pissed off about the book and Akins without ever having read the book or heard what the man had to say about it. That's equally regretable.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

This discussion needs more cowbell.

Likelies:

Cerna is a toponym given the sentence.
Carna is a common name throughout Ireland for anywhere with cairns. The name even has its equivolent in foreignese in the Carnes cultural site.


Let's not forget the hero, Conall Cernach, who seems to have some power over snakes.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

I picked up a copy of Celtic mythology by Prionsias Mac Cana after your recommendation Searles. He had the same Idea about a greenman horned god type existing in Conal Cernach in relation to that statue. Its an interesting idea cheers for the recommends.

I have to say LFR is a great book. If I was Steven Atkins and I had written LFR I would certainly tell people I wrote it myself. If he is letting someone else take the credit he has an admirable humility that I lack because I would hog that credit and ride it like a wave to paid lectures :toofless:

On pissing people off to quote Billy Connelly "Politcal Correction is the language of cowardice". I think he should be praised for his bravery.

[Seren_]

I picked up a copy of Celtic mythology by Prionsias Mac Cana after your recommendation Searles. He had the same Idea about a greenman horned god type existing in Conal Cernach in relation to that statue. Its an interesting idea cheers for the recommends.

I have to say LFR is a great book. If I was Steven Atkins and I had written LFR I would certainly tell people I wrote it myself. If he is letting someone else take the credit he has an admirable humility that I lack because I would hog that credit and ride it like a wave to paid lectures :toofless:

On pissing people off to quote Billy Connelly "Politcal Correction is the language of cowardice". I think he should be praised for his bravery.

:confused: You think being 'brave' enough to post racist, homophobic and anti-Semitic comments on various forums should be praised?

[Nuadu]

Well Seren I think he should be praised for having the courage to publish something knowing he would come under criticism. While it wasnt part of my original praise he is also brave for not hiding his beliefs when he knows that they would be used against him in relation to this book.

You and I both know the kind of Un-PC opinions that are held in our corner of the world. How would most CR's view our friends and loved ones? Sometimes its better to follow Mammys advice: "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing". Sound advice for all involved.

[_Banbha_]

I picked up a copy of Celtic mythology by Prionsias Mac Cana after your recommendation Searles. He had the same Idea about a greenman horned god type existing in Conal Cernach in relation to that statue. Its an interesting idea cheers for the recommends.

I have to say LFR is a great book. If I was Steven Atkins and I had written LFR I would certainly tell people I wrote it myself. If he is letting someone else take the credit he has an admirable humility that I lack because I would hog that credit and ride it like a wave to paid lectures :toofless:

Since when is an attempt to perpetrate fraud "an admirable act of humility"? Even if you are in the minority who agree with him, Akins himself can provide no proof to his claims. They are marketed in such a way that is dishonest.


On pissing people off to quote Billy Connelly "Politcal Correction is the language of cowardice". I think he should be praised for his bravery.

I'm not sure I follow here. Please post for me some examples of the cowardice you're referring to.


Well Seren I think he should be praised for having the courage to publish something knowing he would come under criticism. While it wasnt part of my original praise he is also brave for not hiding his beliefs when he knows that they would be used against him in relation to this book.

One doesn't have to refer to or rely on his beliefs on race and homosexuality to critique the writings from and about the book he's provided online or what others have read his book in total.

As a matter of fact, I think there is general agreement those issues are not raised in the book other than the Nazi provenance; which is more an incredulous chuckle to most and not in reference to a philosophical connection in the writing itself.


You and I both know the kind of Un-PC opinions that are held in our corner of the world. How would most CR's view our friends and loved ones? Sometimes its better to follow Mammys advice: "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing". Sound advice for all involved.

I think Mammy's advice is sound and in some situations entirely appropriate. But this is a discussion forum. The discussion of ideas, claims, sources, and plain opinions on aforementioned ideas.

And yeah, you find a variety of opinions in every culture from one extreme to the other involving politics, society, and history. Why would you think most CR's do not know this given a general penchant for knowing the contemporary cultures beyond the lore. Surely most have read on Stormfront if they've not encountered it in reality. I do think it might be a shock for those who read and learn from more Llewellyn-ish type fare. :)

[Seren_]

Well Seren I think he should be praised for having the courage to publish something knowing he would come under criticism.

If that were the case in a simple sense, then yes I'd agree; people publish controversial work all the time, and clearly they should expect and prepare for criticism, perhaps even vilification for their work. To his credit, Mr Akins has taken such criticism well; with enthusiasm, it could be said.

But in this case I think it's clear that Mr Akins published something based on claims that are entirely unsubstantiated, and his response to many questions have been unsatisfactory at best.


While it wasnt part of my original praise he is also brave for not hiding his beliefs when he knows that they would be used against him in relation to this book.I don't think racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism or any other forms of bigotry should be praised under any circumstances. We all have our prejudices, there's no doubt about that, and sometimes it does take balls to voice opinions that go against the mainstream. But such extreme views as Mr Akins has, which has led one message board to debate whether or not some of his posts are even legal, are in an entirely different league, IMHO (and by the by, I disagree that they're illegal; I've not seen him personally inciting illegal activity in others, which is what I believe is illegal, rather than voicing racist opinions per se. Otherwise the BNP wouldn't legally be allowed to exist...).


You and I both know the kind of Un-PC opinions that are held in our corner of the world. How would most CR's view our friends and loved ones?I'm well aware, and I challenge them as I come across them, as I assume most people would, CR or not.

I'm the life and soul of the party, me ;)

There's a difference between being Un-PC (like "just nipping off to the 'Paki' shop") and being a white supremacist. One is far more detrimental to society than the other. ETA: Though I should make it clear that both are wrong.


Sometimes its better to follow Mammys advice: "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing". Sound advice for all involved.See, when I was told that it was because my sister and I were saying nasty things to each other just to be spiteful.

Challenging false concepts and even outright lies is an entirely different thing. In the past it's been very common for a lot of authors to write gods knows what kinds of shite like Witta and Pecti-Wita to name a few. Why shouldn't authors, making similarly outlandish and frankly suspect claims, be questioned? This is not to say the path presented itself is necessarily invalid. But when history is used and abused in such a way to justify such beliefs, I have an issue. He wouldn't be receiving half so much the criticism if he'd been honest that his book was a personal view rather than one having a historical basis.

At the end of the day, Mr Akins posted several excerpts of his book on several different forums, including this one. If he didn't want any comment on these excerpts or his book in general, then he wouldn't be posting them all over the place, now, would he? And he wouldn't continue to reply to people's comments and questions.

[_Banbha_]

Seren: I'm sorry for answering Nuadu's post addressed to you...most especially before you did! :doh2:

[Seren_]

Seren: I'm sorry for answering Nuadu's post addressed to you...most especially before you did! :doh2:

No worries! You said a lot of things more succinctly than I ever could.

I probably would've managed to post earlier if I hadn't've been stuck on the phone to Mr Seren, being all bored on a motorway ;)

[odubhain]

Challenging false concepts and even outright lies is an entirely different thing. In the past it's been very common for a lot of authors to write gods knows what kinds of shite like Witta and Pecti-Wita to name a few. Why shouldn't authors, making similarly outlandish and frankly suspect claims, be questioned? This is not to say the path presented itself is necessarily invalid. But when history is used and abused in such a way to justify such beliefs, I have an issue. He wouldn't be receiving half so much the criticism if he'd been honest that his book was a personal view rather than one having a historical basis.

He maintains that he translated the German text provided by Thorenson. I see no reason to disbelieve this is the case. As proof of that he's provided the names of the Thorenson's, a scan of several pages and the envelop in which it was mailed to him. He has plainly stated in several venues that he used a "King James" style for the first part of the translation. It's not a literal one from the German there or in the second part either. I'd love to see the complete German text and see what those who are fluent in German have to say about it. It seems pretty obvious that Carmina Gadelica by Alexander Carmichael was used to embellish and set the tone for much of the "ritual" contained in the second half of the text. If I'm not mistaken, Akins owns up to that as well.

Let's not confuse marketing with what is actually said in the book. Often these are not the same for other more accepted books just due to the need to get people to pick up the book in a store and browse through it. Akins has provided a lot of the text of LFR online so that a person can pretty much browse it and make up their own mind about how good/useful it is.


At the end of the day, Mr Akins posted several excerpts of his book on several different forums, including this one. If he didn't want any comment on these excerpts or his book in general, then he wouldn't be posting them all over the place, now, would he? And he wouldn't continue to reply to people's comments and questions.
I think it does no one any harm and probably provides a benefit if the actual text is discussed without all the questionable opinions concerning Akins' politics, views on race and his other associations. I've met the man in person and he is not the diabhal nor a Nazi/White Supremacist/Skinhead/etc. Is he very un-PC about the relationships between people? You betcha but he's honest about that AFAICS. It's not in the LFR at all and I would very much appreciate it if people would not introduce that into the discussion about the book and its contents.

My own take is that it's better than Iolo but worse than Amergin. :-)

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

No worries! You said a lot of things more succinctly than I ever could.

I probably would've managed to post earlier if I hadn't've been stuck on the phone to Mr Seren, being all bored on a motorway ;)

Your new image remind's me very much of my own "Scotty Boy" who herded everything except the school bus. He even tried to herd the cats! (and generally did a pretty good job of it).

Searles

[skilly-nilly]

Is he very un-PC about the relationships between people? You betcha but he's honest about that AFAICS. It's not in the LFR at all and I would very much appreciate it if people would not introduce that into the discussion about the book and its contents.

Searles O'Dubhain

"people"?

A Celtic scholar wrote a review of the etymology of the Irish words used in the excerpt Akins posted and Akins responded by calling his reviewer a "flamboyantly effeminate queer".

A respected member of the C-R-R community questioned the dubious provenance of the book and Akins supported his claims by calling her an "Uber dyke and militant radical feminist".

In a post public enough that I can read it with no problem what so ever and find it easily.

So really, who's talking about the book and who's slinging insults?

I think that writing a pretend 'ancient' manuscript and then marketing it as anything but one's own work is patently dishonest.

OT1H, keeping lore unchanged was/is very important.

OTOH, creative work shopuld be recognized.

OTGH, telling lies isn't 'marketing'.

[odubhain]

"people"?

A Celtic scholar wrote a review of the etymology of the Irish words used in the excerpt Akins posted and Akins responded by calling his reviewer a "flamboyantly effeminate queer".

A respected member of the C-R-R community questioned the dubious provenance of the book and Akins supported his claims by calling her an "Uber dyke and militant radical feminist".

In a post public enough that I can read it with no problem what so ever and find it easily.

So really, who's talking about the book and who's slinging insults?

I think that writing a pretend 'ancient' manuscript and then marketing it as anything but one's own work is patently dishonest.

OT1H, keeping lore unchanged was/is very important.

OTOH, creative work shopuld be recognized.

OTGH, telling lies isn't 'marketing'.

I'd be interested in reading the links to where these remarks were said to have occurred but these and those have little to do with an actual discussion of the book. They are side issues and nothing more. Discussing the remarks both pro, con and completely off the mark should be done in a different thread entirely.

I'm not one who thinks that the book is being passed off so much as it is being denigrated strictly based on personal biases by some.

This is not to say that it is as I'd like it to be either, but at least I can read and discuss it calmly without castigating author or critic alike.

Searles O'DUbhain

[skilly-nilly]

He maintains that he translated the German text provided by Thorenson. I see no reason to disbelieve this is the case. As proof of that he's provided the names of the Thorenson's, a scan of several pages and the envelop in which it was mailed to him. He has plainly stated in several venues that he used a "King James" style for the first part of the translation. It's not a literal one from the German there or in the second part either. I'd love to see the complete German text and see what those who are fluent in German have to say about it. It seems pretty obvious that Carmina Gadelica by Alexander Carmichael was used to embellish and set the tone for much of the "ritual" contained in the second half of the text. If I'm not mistaken, Akins owns up to that as well.
Searles O'Dubhain

I think that provenance is important.

I've read translations, fr'instance, where the translator used different fonts to indicate where different sources were used and where the translator is frankly writing a bridge.

So when you say that Akins changed the voice when he translated the German (although my German-speaking husband's comment was that the German "sounded like the Bible") I think that this should be indicated in the text.

Also when Akins inserts bits from the Carmina Gadelica as you infer "to embellish and set the tone" those should be cited.

I think that when an author catagorically states that he is a translator of Ancient Lost Lore and not writing from his own head he should be willing to back it up with more than a page of German. If the descendants of the Ancient Irish to German translator inhibit this disclosure then the publication should be delayed or qualified.

I think that the time when an author needs to pretend that hir personal gnosis is 'ancient' in order for it to be accepted is past.

I feel strongly that personal belief qualifies itself, but only as itself. That is, someone cannot make their personal belief the 'truth' merely by asserting that it is 'ancient'. It remains only true for them.

[odubhain]

I think that provenance is important.

I've read translations, fr'instance, where the translator used different fonts to indicate where different sources were used and where the translator is frankly writing a bridge.

So when you say that Akins changed the voice when he translated the German (although my German-speaking husband's comment was that the German "sounded like the Bible") I think that this should be indicated in the text.

Also when Akins inserts bits from the Carmina Gadelica as you infer "to embellish and set the tone" those should be cited.

I think that when an author catagorically states that he is a translator of Ancient Lost Lore and not writing from his own head he should be willing to back it up with more than a page of German. If the descendants of the Ancient Irish to German translator inhibit this disclosure then the publication should be delayed or qualified.

I think that the time when an author needs to pretend that hir personal gnosis is 'ancient' in order for it to be accepted is past.

I feel strongly that personal belief qualifies itself, but only as itself. That is, someone cannot make their personal belief the 'truth' merely by asserting that it is 'ancient'. It remains only true for them.

I agree with what you have said and try to do this in my own work.

Regrettably, Steven Akins seems to have introduced too much style into LFR. It probably already had too much of that done to it by the SS (if the German came by way of them). They had their own agendas and definitely had to please their rulers of the time. I'm surprised more Nazi propaganda or Aryan superiority is not included therein.

Of course, one could infer that the Irish are a mixture of gods and not-gods through their ancestry from the Tuatha Dé Danann, the Firbolg and even the Fomorii (NTM the Sons of Mil). That'd put them pretty high up in the pecking order. Other people who claimed descent from the gods do pretty much the same in their own genealogies and origin stories.

I think that people are spirits inhabiting bodies so that when one discovers and ancestor in a stranger's body, it should be like they are coming home. I've met several people like this in my life. I think it is something in my spiritual blood. :-)

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

"people"?

A Celtic scholar wrote a review of the etymology of the Irish words used in the excerpt Akins posted and Akins responded by calling his reviewer a "flamboyantly effeminate queer".

A respected member of the C-R-R community questioned the dubious provenance of the book and Akins supported his claims by calling her an "Uber dyke and militant radical feminist".

I googled these remarks by Steven Akins in his LiveJournal entries. In all fairness to Akins, the above two individuals had characterized him as being:



By the first person mentioned above:
"racist-affiliated"
"Nazi-sympathetic"
"hugnuttery with cheeze whiz sprinkles..."

By the second person mentioned above:
"racist wanker"
"his NeoNaziism"
"steaming pile of crap"
"whackjob racist fake druid "

It does no service for those who criticize or defend themselves to stoop to such a low use of words and characterization. Akins and the two critics above (Alfrecht; a.k.a. Dr. Phillip A. Bernhardt-House or "Prof. Jeremy M. R. F. Chesterfield-Pickles III" and Erynn Laurie) should stick to scholarly and objective discussion rather than yellow journalism at its worst IMO.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

Hi Seren :)


But in this case I think it's clear that Mr Akins published something based on claims that are entirely unsubstantiated, and his response to many questions have been unsatisfactory at best.

Its worth keeping in mind when answers are unsatisfactory that no author is obliged to answer questions on a published work to the general public and Steven Atkins has answered questions openly and for free. If you want more detailed answers I think it would be fair to pay the man for his time as if he was any other author. I would say that he isnt obliged to answer a question and the questions are probably difficult and tiring.


I don't think racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism or any other forms of bigotry should be praised under any circumstances.

That is your opinion and you are free to express it in any place you would like to express it. The reason for that is we (as in the people of the UK, America and Ireland) made a decision not to allow censorship on that level to exist in our societies. Not to praise things is your choice but to tell someone they are not allowed to express an opinion is (in my opinion only) a form of facist-esque censorship. In my opinion Political Correction is a form of censorship thats: as popular as mcdonalds, as unhealthy for society as a big mac is for your body and is being passed off as something palatable by giving it a fancy name in the same way Mcdonalds passes off dog food grade meat as a big mac.

We surrender alot of individual rights and freedoms to live in a representative democracy I do not believe voluntarily surrendering more of those rights for no gain is the way to go and I applaud anyone who decides to accept the concequences of actually expressing their heartfelt opinions no matter how unpopular or plain stupid they are.


Challenging false concepts and even outright lies is an entirely different thing. In the past it's been very common for a lot of authors to write gods knows what kinds of shite like Witta and Pecti-Wita to name a few. Why shouldn't authors, making similarly outlandish and frankly suspect claims, be questioned?

I would choose to live a more peacefull and positive life rather then agressively attacking others for misconceptions or misrepresentations. A smile costs nothing and none of us arguing on forums is going to change a single social ill or have a book pulled off the shelf. So if there is nothing to gain why is there an argument? It would be better to discuss the content openly. We might learn from each other that way... instead of frowning at computer screens and getting eyestrain

[Nuadu]

Since when is an attempt to perpetrate fraud "an admirable act of humility"? Even if you are in the minority who agree with him, Akins himself can provide no proof to his claims. They are marketed in such a way that is dishonest.

Fraud on who's part?
As far as I know the book makes no claims on authenticity it just gives a possible origin for the documents and a wild guess at its previous origins. Also AFAIK Irish Senchas is not copyrighted.

If it was copyrighted who would hold the moral right to the work? Certainly the people of the culture or nationality that created the senchas right... ?
What legal and moral problems would that create for everyone outside the culture of other nationalities that have a deep love for Irish Senchas... I really think that the issue of fraud is not relevant here and is a dangerous thing to apply to any piece of a culture because of the xenophobic associations it raises.



I'm not sure I follow here. Please post for me some examples of the cowardice you're referring to.

As I said to Seren I believe PCness is cowardess because we all have our own private beliefs and in my opinion political correction takes the right to express those deeply held personal beliefs away. We gain nothing from that and loose a valuable right because of it. So in my opinion only Political Correction is the language of cowards too afriad to express their own opinions for fear that they will be thought of badly by the rest of the herd.

That is my opinion and you have yours. We are both entitled to our own opinions and because opinions are as common to humans as arseholes I do not see the need to argue the point in a third reply on the (OT) topic.



I think Mammy's advice is sound and in some situations entirely appropriate. But this is a discussion forum. The discussion of ideas, claims, sources, and plain opinions on aforementioned ideas.

It is a discussion forum but what is being discussed is not the information in the book but of the Author and his "claims".

With an unbiased eye (Unbiased because I am not American, a Druid or a recon and those are the target audiance of the book) I can say the information in the book is detailed, interesting and worthy of the attention of anyone who is a student of Senchas. Its a shame noone is bothering to really go into the text of the book.


Why would you think most CR's do not know this given a general penchant for knowing the contemporary cultures beyond the lore.

I think most people do not know what other cultures are like because as Im sure you have found being well travelled that people know nothing about the reality of another culture until they have been immersed in it.

Being 100% honest I think that because of the level of dedication being a reconstructionalist takes they would not waste their time if they knew how different Irish Culture is from American Culture and how unwelcome they would be made once they scratched the surface.

For example Ireland is very insular: just the as same as a person from Dublin traveling outside "the pale" an American Reconstructionalist that emmigrates to ireland will find that they will never be accepted as a normal Irish person and will always be treated in one way or another as an outsider because of their accent.

In Ireland anyone from outside the local area is a foreigner and we are all Prods, Taigs, Boggers, Culchies, Jackeens when we live here when you arent from here and its obvious the ways you are treated badly are numberless and Political Correction (A massive part of American Culture) has no impact on that.

[Seren_]

Its worth keeping in mind when answers are unsatisfactory that no author is obliged to answer questions on a published work to the general public and Steven Atkins has answered questions openly and for free. If you want more detailed answers I think it would be fair to pay the man for his time as if he was any other author. I would say that he isnt obliged to answer a question and the questions are probably difficult and tiring.

Indeed, and I think I gave him due credit for being so obliging in my previous post.


That is your opinion and you are free to express it in any place you would like to express it. The reason for that is we (as in the people of the UK, America and Ireland) made a decision not to allow censorship on that level to exist in our societies. Not to praise things is your choice but to tell someone they are not allowed to express an opinion is (in my opinion only) a form of facist-esque censorship. In my opinion Political Correction is a form of censorship thats: as popular as mcdonalds, as unhealthy for society as a big mac is for your body and is being passed off as something palatable by giving it a fancy name in the same way Mcdonalds passes off dog food grade meat as a big mac.(Bold mine) Have I said that? I'm not sure I have. I believe in freedom of speech, I'm not a fan of censorship, and I think the laws in the country with regards to these issues are ridiculous.

If we're talking about political correctness, then yes, calling dwarves 'people of below average stature' so as not to cause offence is stupid (IMO), for example (though why you'd want to point out the obvious in conversation, I don't know...). But this political correctness is on a different par to expressing a distate for racist sentiments, homophobia, and anti-Semitism. The former is a symptom of nannyism. The latter is a response to how dangerous these forms of bigotry can be. The KKK, the BNP, Combat 18, Nazi Germany*. If I were being PC, I would refer to Mr Akins as a person who is ethnically intolerant, perhaps...And so on.

No, it's not illegal to express opinions. It's not illegal to disagree with opinions either, and to dismiss the content of people's arguments on the basis that they're just being 'PC' is just as pointless as dismissing a book based on the fact that the author has expressed racist, homophobic and anti-Semitic opinions.

I don't believe that people have simply dismissed any credence of the book's content based on the popular impression of Mr Akins' character, however. I think there's certainly been an element of this in informing people's judgement of him - postively or negatively, and I think that's entirely fair and natural. It's human nature. But criticisms of Mr Akins' work has also been heavily based on the portions of it that have been made available publicly and to dismiss these points that have been raised as far left liberal bias and whatever else has been levelled at those criticising the work misses the point entirely.

My initial impressions of the book have only been confirmed by the discussions I've had with Mr Akins as to the content of his work. If you'd like me to reiterate these points, seeing as they seem to have got lost in the fray, I'm happy to do so.



*Did I just Godwin the thread? I think I did...:bow:

[_Banbha_]

Fraud on who's part?
As far as I know the book makes no claims on authenticity it just gives a possible origin for the documents and a wild guess at its previous origins. Also AFAIK Irish Senchas is not copyrighted.

It would make things more simple if I had been referring to the use of the Senchas but I'm not.

Akins claims his book "The LFR: A Druidic Grammar of Celtic Lore and Magic," is an authentic English translation of a German translation "druidic" teachings...from Old Irish. There is nothing but credulous belief that could make it that and not only because Akins lacks proof of any kind but how he presents and attempts to frame the content.

Let me refer you to the first paragraph of An Academic (P)Review of Akins' Lebor Feasa Runda (http://community.livejournal.com/cr_r/318578.html?thread=3185266):

The importance of a close study of medieval manuscripts and the texts which they contain for an understanding of the pre-Christian spiritual viewpoints of Insular Celtic cultures cannot be overstated, not only from an academic stance, but also from the perspective of those seeking to integrate and utilize these viewpoints in a modern, workable, practical religious outlook in the early twenty-first century. Far too often, not enough attention has been paid to what these texts actually say, and instead small snippets of them have been abused and subjected to the Procrustean bed of some occult framework that is utterly foreign and inapplicable to the text. Kabbalistic, elemental, Wiccan ditheism, and triplicate feminine divinity notions are some of the frameworks which have been inappropriately imposed on Insular Celtic material in the past. It is not that these frameworks are not useful in and of themselves, nor is it impossible that they may ring true and be useful, meaningful, and life-giving methodologies and schemas with which to engage the world of deities and spirits; however, to say that medieval texts which do not fit these frameworks, were not derived from or based upon them, nor do they have anything whatsoever to do with them, in fact exemplify and explicate them, is erroneous at best, and completely misleading and fraudulent at worst.
<snip>

This sums up my feelings better than I could. I've found the (P)review to to have been very valuable. The full reviews and the words of Akins himself have supported that.


If it was copyrighted who would hold the moral right to the work? Certainly the people of the culture or nationality that created the senchas right... ?

If that were the case...Yes. Then the moral copyright would be with the Irish peoples. But of course, I do not think medieval works can or should be copyrighted.


What legal and moral problems would that create for everyone outside the culture of other nationalities that have a deep love for Irish Senchas... I really think that the issue of fraud is not relevant here and is a dangerous thing to apply to any piece of a culture because of the xenophobic associations it raises.

Yes, I agree that stand point could raise xenophobic associations.






I'm not sure I follow here. Please post for me some examples of the cowardice you're referring to.
As I said to Seren I believe PCness is cowardess because we all have our own private beliefs and in my opinion political correction takes the right to express those deeply held personal beliefs away. We gain nothing from that and loose a valuable right because of it. So in my opinion only Political Correction is the language of cowards too afriad to express their own opinions for fear that they will be thought of badly by the rest of the herd.

That is my opinion and you have yours. We are both entitled to our own opinions and because opinions are as common to humans as arseholes I do not see the need to argue the point in a third reply on the (OT) topic.

I did/do not understand what it is you're referring to as political correction/ess which is the only reason I was asking. :)

On a personal level, I can't imagine letting anyone take my right to express myself in an honest and forthright manner, no less when it came to deeply held personal beliefs. I don't think that's cowardice.


With an unbiased eye (Unbiased because I am not American, a Druid or a recon and those are the target audiance of the book) I can say the information in the book is detailed, interesting and worthy of the attention of anyone who is a student of Senchas. Its a shame noone is bothering to really go into the text of the book.

Are Reconstructionists a target audience for this book?

Wait...you say you're not of the target audience, wouldn't a book based on a previously unpublished (still missing) Irish medieval document have Ireland and the Irish as a/the prime target audience? :huh:

It's a personal preference that I'd rather stick with scholarly study, by an actual notable Celtic scholar, not someone who calls themselves one with no credentials or over site. It's one way I feel the need to express my respect for the materials.


I think most people do not know what other cultures are like because as Im sure you have found being well travelled that people know nothing about the reality of another culture until they have been immersed in it.

This is true for some people certainly; and perhaps many would be surprised or even shocked out of their preconceptions; but that is part of true education isn't it? Being challenged on dearly held (and perhaps romantic) beliefs that one might have not earned through experience? I think so. :)


Being 100% honest I think that because of the level of dedication being a reconstructionalist takes they would not waste their time if they knew how different Irish Culture is from American Culture and how unwelcome they would be made once they scratched the surface.

Might this have something to do with your opinion of CR in general, otherwise why would Reconstructionists be specifically unwelcome? I did read something once briefly. I do not take it personally.

CR's I know of seem content to have their own culture within (and not exactly of) wider American culture. That's part of what makes it challenging. It obviously cannot be insular Irish culture either, and I've never met anyone who claimed it was. Well, a few have nutters popped up on occasion on lists over the years, I think. It's mostly before my time. There is variety of opinion and a diversity of perspectives within CR; I'm far from expert in it.


For example Ireland is very insular: just the as same as a person from Dublin traveling outside "the pale" an American Reconstructionalist that emmigrates to ireland will find that they will never be accepted as a normal Irish person and will always be treated in one way or another as an outsider because of their accent.

In Ireland anyone from outside the local area is a foreigner and we are all Prods, Taigs, Boggers, Culchies, Jackeens when we live here when you arent from here and its obvious the ways you are treated badly are numberless and Political Correction (A massive part of American Culture) has no impact on that.

Just what is a "normal Irish person"? :p Given the Prods, Taigs, Boggers, Culchies, Jackeens and lets not forget the wild muck savages of Clair, I'd say we'd have a difficult time defining normal in any sense of the word. /JK/:D I see what you're saying as to differences and standing out for them; but do think there are other opinions on these matters and not all are quite the same IME as a narrow-back and certainly not all Americans are alike as you might get from media messages --or tourist buses-- either.

How can someone who is not Irish be accepted as an Irish person? I do think that is a conundrum in itself. Perhaps a person of character, sense, and good humor would be accepted just as who they are by more welcoming folks, friends, and loved ones.

[_Banbha_]

I'd be interested in reading the links to where these remarks were said to have occurred but these and those have little to do with an actual discussion of the book. They are side issues and nothing more. Discussing the remarks both pro, con and completely off the mark should be done in a different thread entirely.

You did address some of those side issues in addition to Akins' character in your review here, both in the main review and in the next separate post entitled: Steven Akins and Hitler as a Hero.

What you're saying now could easily give the appearance of being disingenuous when claiming anything that counters what you've raised and given opinion on here belongs in a different thread.

[odubhain]

You did address some of those side issues in addition to Akins' character in your review here, both in the main review and in the next separate post entitled: Steven Akins and Hitler as a Hero.

What you're saying now could easily give the appearance of being disingenuous when claiming anything that counters what you've raised and given opinion on here belongs in a different thread.
I'd hoped that side issues about the author would not become confused with an actual discussion of the book's merits. That's still my hope.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

The phrasing here expresses certainty, not "possibility."

Tomas the back of a book is marketing and rarely reflects the content, i dont know alot about self Publishing but I would wonder if Steven Atkins made that up himself.



I don't believe that people have simply dismissed any credence of the book's content based on the popular impression of Mr Akins' character, however. I think there's certainly been an element of this in informing people's judgement of him - postively or negatively, and I think that's entirely fair and natural. It's human nature.

That certainly would be a positive thing if it was true but from the fact that reviewers of the book have openly said they had not read the book at the time they wrote the review I dont think that is the case here.


But criticisms of Mr Akins' work has also been heavily based on the portions of it that have been made available publicly and to dismiss these points that have been raised as far left liberal bias and whatever else has been levelled at those criticising the work misses the point entirely.

This is my case in point. "Portions of the book that have been made available publicly" is not honest opinions based on an unbiased reading of the material of the book. The book is cheap and is on eBay. Noone should be debating the book without reading it but there you are.

[Nuadu]

Let me refer you to the first paragraph of An Academic (P)Review of Akins' Lebor Feasa Runda (http://community.livejournal.com/cr_r/318578.html?thread=3185266):


This sums up my feelings better than I could. I've found the (P)review to to have been very valuable. The full reviews and the words of Akins himself have supported that.

That lad, despite going to University College Cork wrote a review of a book that he says he had not read at the time he wrote the review. That is an uninformed opinion and really not worthy of someone who tells people he is a UCC graduate.


Wait...you say you're not of the target audience, wouldn't a book based on a previously unpublished (still missing) Irish medieval document have Ireland and the Irish as a/the prime target audience? :huh:

Alot of books make it to the shelves in Easons but most pagan books are written for an American market. We dont have the numbers to warrant that kind of attention in the Irish Market.


Might this have something to do with your opinion of CR in general, otherwise why would Reconstructionists be specifically unwelcome? I did read something once briefly. I do not take it personally.

Recons specifically in this discussion because the books greatest critics are recons and it is recons who put in uncommonly VAST amounts of work into their religion.

Since my opinion of CR is questioned my opinion is that the massive amount work they put in is needless and someone that interested in Ireland should just come here and absorb the culture naturally and enjoyably. I dont know why they arent doing that en masse but whatever the reason I am not going to discourage people in being interested in something close to my heart.


CR's I know of seem content to have their own culture within (and not exactly of) wider American culture. That's part of what makes it challenging. It obviously cannot be insular Irish culture either, and I've never met anyone who claimed it was. Well, a few have nutters popped up on occasion on lists over the years, I think. It's mostly before my time. There is variety of opinion and a diversity of perspectives within CR; I'm far from expert in it.

I did not know there was a CR subculture. That is interesting.


How can someone who is not Irish be accepted as an Irish person? I do think that is a conundrum in itself. Perhaps a person of character, sense, and good humor would be accepted just as who they are by more welcoming folks, friends, and loved ones.

Good people will be accepted as a fixture within the group after a while but that wont make them Irish. Theyll always be the Yank, or the Brit or the Black fella.

I would say that someone not from Ireland could be accepted as an Irish person by using the traditions they have learned in a traditional way. Its like a Dublin lad who knows how to dig well with a spade. He goes to clare and finds the Clare spade is what people dig with.

So instead of his usual two sided spade he is faced with this long bladed thing only a handspan at the tip with only one place to put his right foot and a big thick handle. After some struggle he learns to apply the spade to the sod sucessfully but a clareman digging the hole knows to twist the handle to flip the sod because in Clare the soil conditions meant that the that spade was used to turn the soil in leiu of a heavy plough before the advent of machinery and that is why the spade was designed with the long blade and handle.

Both guys are digging holes, both are working for the same goal but the Clare lad is applying the traditions like only a Clare fella can. The other lad is digging differently and marking himself out as a foreigner. When the Dub learns the trick he will be beginning the process of acculturalisation something that will mark him as a Clare man. Something he can only accomplish through experiance in Clare.

The reason I like LFR is it shows a little more native insight then I have come to expect from foreign authors on Paganism. Even if a Nazi wrote it steven atkins translated it with his own spin and managed to apply the spade to the soil he has like a clare fella.

I would get that book if you havent already gotten it.

[_Banbha_]

I'd hoped that side issues about the author would not become confused with an actual discussion of the book's merits. That's still my hope.

Searles O'Dubhain

I understand but I don't think anyone is confused. It's just most do not see merit in that book.

The reviews, including yours, say that the racist and homophobic materials he's posted on a number of forums recently are not in the substance of the book. I've seen no posters disputing that point; so I don't see anything getting in the way of discussing the content and wild claims the author makes.

[odubhain]

I understand but I don't think anyone is confused. It's just most do not see merit in that book.

The reviews, including yours, say that the racist and homophobic materials he's posted on a number of forums recently are not in the substance of the book. I've seen no posters disputing that point; so I don't see anything getting in the way of discussing the content and wild claims the author makes.

Great! Then let's discuss the content of the book rationally and objectively which is what I wanted to do in the first place.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

It's not "marketing," it's simple dishonesty.

Mr. Akins has also commented on other forums quite confidently that the LFR is a faithful doctrine of pre-Christian Irish religion.

He basically says that it is his best translation of a German manuscript that was presented to him as a translation of a much older Irish manuscript. He told me this face to face and I believe that is what he believes. He also told me that he dressed the text style up to give it more life and to be read more easily to an English speaking and reading audience since his German translation was very rough. It'd be helpful to a discussion of the book to see all the German text.

Parts of the book to me read as if they are based on the same materials as Keating's History or Lebor Gabála. Other parts of the book look like they come from Ogygia by O'Flaherty. I don't like the pentagram usage or the stuff that sounds like Carmichael. A lot of that seems to come from more recent writings. It's quite possible that the Germans corrupted that (again, without the German text, we don't have a chance to know). It's also quite possible that Akins couched this part in a paraphrase to cover a lack of skill in translating it. I haven't asked him if he did or he didn't because quite frankly that part of the book is not useful to me anyway. I know that stuff from several other sources and don't care to study it again. It doesn't look authentically ancient to me the way it's presented but that doesn't mean Akins is to blame for it.

Akins believes the LFR to be authentic pre-Christian Irish secrets but that's up to each person to decide for themselves. My own knowledge about such things neither needs the book to be a verification nor seeks to destroy what the book is saying, because it does ring true in many places. As with all myth, it is an explanation for how things are and were couched in mystical terms to describe things that are not easily told in ordinary language. It's all a myth told for that purpose whether Akins or Amergin wrote/told it. The real key is what does the myth tell us and how does that work in our own spiritual lives?

As Odran said ...


It's not as we were told it is,

Let's get used to embracing myth as it comes to us and study scholarship for what it is too. In a marriage of the two is where our heart should be speaking truly and our lips should be pouring forth in a stream of honor.

Read the book along with two or three hundred others and make up your own mind without painting things in a simple black and white; either/or.

Searles O'Dubhain

[_Banbha_]

Great! Then let's discuss the content of the book rationally and objectively which is what I wanted to do in the first place.

Searles O'Dubhain

That was an excellent attempt and I must recognize it as such; but you should have not bought his issues up (and so extensively) in the first place then.

Akins chose a certain route to take this book, no one else. Whatever is negative or dissatisfying to the conservation about the book is not on the commenter's here, but the materials he has presented himself both in the book and online (relating only to the content). I've no issue with the mixing of tradition for those who find true meaning in it; but this book is not presented as such.

[_Banbha_]

I'm not concerned with the inspirational nature of the book's content; the fact is, there is nothing that Akins or you have provided that is the least bit convincing that the audacious claims of the LFR are true, and it doesn't take a reading to see the book lacks any merit. The material Akins has publicly provided is quite revealing in itself.

While we can go on ad infinitum with "well, it's quite possible," the odds are completely against him: no verifiable, tangible transcription of the LFR; no verifiable, tangible medieval LFR text; no verifiable, tangible original German translation; as you and others have pointed out, it contains numerous instances of anachronisms and elements foreign to or inconsistent with Irish mythological tradition; the apparency of plagarism; his past involvement in fraudulent activity doesn't lend any credibility; his propagation of shoddy history and research, which has been refuted, on numerous pagan forums neither helps his credibility; the fact that his book has been dismissed by many members of the CR, Neodruidic, and academic communities doesn't help his credibility. How can you be surprised that people remain unconvinced and unwilling to even entertain the notion that this book is authentic?
<lil' snip>

Yes, exactly; and well said.

[odubhain]

I'm not concerned with the inspirational nature of the book's content; the fact is, there is nothing that Akins or you have provided that is the least bit convincing that the audacious claims of the LFR are true, and it doesn't take a reading to see the book lacks any merit. The material Akins has publicly provided is quite revealing in itself.

I'm just providing information that came out of my meeting with Akins, emails between he and I and an attempt to be objective about the book. I have nothing to gain from the book being valid or not.


While we can go on ad infinitum with "well, it's quite possible," the odds are completely against him: no verifiable, tangible transcription of the LFR; no verifiable, tangible medieval LFR text; no verifiable, tangible original German translation; as you and others have pointed out, it contains numerous instances of anachronisms and elements foreign to or inconsistent with Irish mythological tradition; the apparency of plagarism; his past involvement in fraudulent activity doesn't lend any credibility; his propagation of shoddy history and research, which has been refuted, on numerous pagan forums neither helps his credibility; the fact that his book has been dismissed by many members of the CR, Neodruidic, and academic communities doesn't help his credibility. How can you be surprised that people remain unconvinced and unwilling to even entertain the notion that this book is authentic?

I'm surprised at the venom in many of the reviews and postings from people who have not read the book and who only have any information about it from Akins sharing it himself. It would have been nice to get more of the German text he used for the translation that he says he made (and from what I've seen the German appears to be fairly close to what had been provided in English so far, but I'm no German scholar). The dismissal of Akins' book by some just based on seeming personal dislikes of him bring sadness at me. I'd really appreciate a dispassionate, object review of it by someone who knows the turf. So far, I haven't seen anything approaching that. That's one reason I started this thread. It doesn't seem to be the reason you started the thread stating that it was a hoax. A good thing coming out of this discussion is that it may actually help people who want to reconstruct Celtic traditions to see how those traditions evolve and change over the years (while not changing much at all due to their very conservative nature).

I don't see any plagiarism in the book by Akins. Could you post some examples? I do see where a bunch of charms and invocations are modeled after the work of Alexander Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica. That's not plagiarism. Akins freely admits that and his use of King James' English to make the book seem more 'Biblical.' This book seems to me to have come out of folk knowledge from Ireland and to be more likely a product of that 'ilk' than any other. The way it appears is consistent with someone like Edward Kelly assembling a book to promote one of his positions or to sell it to an European monarch or one of their libraries. It's also consistent with someone from Nazi Germany putting together propaganda to show that all Celtic people are from the same stock and share the same mythic traditions. This could have possibly served an anticipated conquering of Britain and Ireland (even the United States) wherein the Nazis understood that a huge part of the people in these areas could be unified under that banner (or so they thought). The propaganda purpose of their Aryan mysticism was to sublimate and unify one part of the people against other parts of the people. Little did they know that the Jews are the lost tribe of the Irish (as I jokingly always tell my friend, the rabbi, when I see her)! :-)

Finally, I think every book should be reviewed objectively and completely when it claims to contain such important information. To not do so, would be to put Galileo in prison or to torture Giordano Bruno. That's what I see happening in this case. Fairness should not permit itself to be ruled by distaste or bias.


So the book maybe useful and inspirational to some, does that excuse the extent of Akins' claims or pardon his means of fabricating and marketing his book? Should these things be simply overlooked?

Who is overlooking the claims both pro and con regarding the book? It's certainly not me.

I see nothing outwardly wrong with a person receiving a manuscript that is represented to him as being a German translation of an Old Irish manuscript. I see nothing wrong with him translating and publishing the manuscript. I see nothing wrong with his clear statements within the book of how the manuscripts came into his hands and their supposed history as given to him by Thorenson's wife.

Now, if this information is fabricated or unsubstantiated by research into the facts as presented then there would be huge problems with Akins and the book. So far, the jury is out on whether such a manuscript (Old Irish) ever existed and even if Thorenson ever existed. I have contacted the POW museum in Aliceville, Alabama, and they tell me there is no record in their files of Thorensons, however, they cautioned me that their files are incomplete to the point that thy are seeking help from U.S. Senator Jeff Sessions to gain additional information. I've looked through the online records of the U.S. Archives here in Washington D.C. but have not found the rolls for German POWs. I plan to go to the archives physically while I'm here to check that out.

The only information available so far as to the authenticity of the German manuscript of Thorenson is the actual text he has posted to the Internet in German and a few reproductions of some of its pages (as well as the actual envelop in which it was mailed) that he provided to me. I've also chased down some suggested documents in the history of potential candidates to have been the actual Old Irish text of LFR in the histories about John Dee and in the stories surrounding Roger Bacon and a certain British saint who was said to have had a "black book" and to have practiced black magic. None of these have verified the provenance of LFR sufficiently to my satisfaction to be considered proof. I don't see these as being productive.

What might be extremely productive is to go through OSI and MI-6 transcripts of interviews and interrogations of Hess and other SS officers during and after WWII to see if any mention is made of such a manuscript. It might also be productive to see if mention is made in any German records or memoirs. I've asked through my OTO contacts if there are any mentions made of Crowley being associated with such a document and have been told flat out that there isn't by people who know. I do know that the OTO and some Medieval mages in works they have used Ogham in some of their sigels and talismans. This hints at what LFR implies but by no means substantiates it. An open mind will continue research on the matter until all avenues available are exhausted before pronouncing the patient as being dead or at the least useless.

So, how about we discuss particular passages from LFR that you think are not valid or that do not apply to a discussion of Druid or Celtic traditions? I think the pentacle usage is without much support in the traditions from pre-Christian Celtic traditions. I've never seen one in any of the imagery or icons that have been discovered to my knowledge. I'd like to know if others have heard of this in scholarly works or even in the folklore? The only reference that comes to mind to me is a faintly recalled reference to the Druids having worn shoes with pentacles on the soles that I think Lewis Spence mentioned in one of his books on Druids. I put this down as folk knowledge or a corruption between traditions when I first heard of it. It may have come out of some inferences that Sir Gwain of Arthurian tradition had a pentacle on his shield (might be mentioned in a Matthews book).

Searles O'Dubhain

[_Banbha_]

Hi Nuadu,

That lad, despite going to University College Cork wrote a review of a book that he says he had not read at the time he wrote the review. That is an uninformed opinion and really not worthy of someone who tells people he is a UCC graduate.

You're not characterizing the labeled and intended (P)review correctly. I don't see how the repetition of that falsehood could help to support your (or anyone else's) claims about The LFR at this point. :hrmm:


Alot of books make it to the shelves in Easons but most pagan books are written for an American market. We dont have the numbers to warrant that kind of attention in the Irish Market.

The LFR is a self-published and not dependent on corporate whims so it's the author's choice. When making claims of holding a translation of a lost early medieval Irish text, one has to wonder, why not the Irish?


Recons specifically in this discussion because the books greatest critics are recons and it is recons who put in uncommonly VAST amounts of work into their religion.

In this discussion, it's Recons; but Recons are far from the only ones criticizing this book. There are many books published about "Celtic" subjects for Pagans that would not be acceptable from a strict CR view point (UPG maybe dependent on the individual). What distinguishes this book is the issue of misrepresentation and fraud that raise hackles. Now add plagiarism charges from John Michael Greer who has read the book (from the interesting discussion in the link Tomas' posted just above).

Nothing is work that one takes great pleasure in doing. There is no separation between work and the sacred. It's all of the same. :)


Since my opinion of CR is questioned my opinion is that the massive amount work they put in is needless and someone that interested in Ireland should just come here and absorb the culture naturally and enjoyably. I dont know why they arent doing that en masse but whatever the reason I am not going to discourage people in being interested in something close to my heart.

When you say work, do you mean the reading and study? Not everyone is a great scholar, or has to be from my perspective. It's experiential or perhaps informed experiential. Sometimes I think that's difficult to grasp for some because they get hung up on the academic debates -or- maybe that's the only thing about Recons they've ever been exposed too. Discussions and debates about texts, language, history, customs, folklore, holidays, foods, etc. can be enjoyable and informing but they're not the sum of everything.

I don't think knowledge is something that's "needless" under any circumstances; that goes for intellectual pursuits as well as experiential knowledge. I'm not sure how you know about what individual CR do as far as experiences in the culture(s), I don't like to make assumptions or generalizations. Not every CR is American or from the same American experience and culture. I'm noticing more variety of nationalities and countries of origin within CR as well.

People live and breath where they want, need, or can afford to. I'm sure most would love to immerse themselves in a variety of cultures naturally over years if they had the luxury! Saying that could be done en masse as a group is something more akin and realistic as herding cats. :p



I did not know there was a CR subculture. That is interesting.
A bit like snow leopards, rare and in our own territories and nations; but yeah, not the norm.


Good people will be accepted as a fixture within the group after a while but that wont make them Irish. Theyll always be the Yank, or the Brit or the Black fella.

A not-Irish person being accepted as an Irish person is a nonsensical expectation. I think we've been on the same page on this and the importance of culture over things like blood.

You should know this was attributed to Akins who claims his family emigrated from Scotland in the 16th century posted on a thread at the Druids Head Pub where he didn't deny writing it:



The citizens of Scotland are no more Scottish than the Scots who today live in America. Scottishness is determined by ethnicity not political jurisdiction. This is why you would not consider an Indian, Paskistani, African, Arabian or any other ethnic group which happend to have citizenship in Scotland to be a Scot. By the same token, Scots who live in America are not red Indians or what we here refer to as "Native Americans" but are quite as much Scots as those who live in the auld country which occupies the northern third of Great Britain.
http://www.ian-stewart.eu/z-sja-thoughts.html

[underlining mine]

www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25517&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=40

Is this the kind of thing you've been referring to?
This is not something that would be deemed a respectful to the culture or an accurate thing to say from a CR standpoint from my experience and my pre-CR personal feelings as well.


I would say that someone not from Ireland could be accepted as an Irish person by using the traditions they have learned in a traditional way. Its like a Dublin lad who knows how to dig well with a spade. He goes to clare and finds the Clare spade is what people dig with.

So instead of his usual two sided spade he is faced with this long bladed thing only a handspan at the tip with only one place to put his right foot and a big thick handle. After some struggle he learns to apply the spade to the sod sucessfully but a clareman digging the hole knows to twist the handle to flip the sod because in Clare the soil conditions meant that the that spade was used to turn the soil in leiu of a heavy plough before the advent of machinery and that is why the spade was designed with the long blade and handle.

Both guys are digging holes, both are working for the same goal but the Clare lad is applying the traditions like only a Clare fella can. The other lad is digging differently and marking himself out as a foreigner. When the Dub learns the trick he will be beginning the process of acculturalisation something that will mark him as a Clare man. Something he can only accomplish through experiance in Clare.

Yes, this is a nice analogy and holds much troof.


The reason I like LFR is it shows a little more native insight then I have come to expect from foreign authors on Paganism. Even if a Nazi wrote it steven atkins translated it with his own spin and managed to apply the spade to the soil he has like a clare fella.

I would get that book if you havent already gotten it.

...no thanks, I'll pass. :p

[odubhain]

John Michael Greer, who has read the book, has pointed some instances of plagiarism here (http://intothemound.blogspot.com/2009/02/creeping-druid-fakery.html), and offers some other insight into the book as well.

I tool a look at Ian Corrigan's blog where John Michael Greer's remarks are posted in a thread (the link you posted here). I also compared Lebor Feasa Rúnda's Testament of Ollamh Fodla with the Key of Soloman the King by MacGregor Mathers (pages 2 through 4) and the two seem as similar as the invocations and charms provided in Part 2 of LFR are to those of Alexander Carmichael's Carmina Gadelica. LFR does not plagiarize KOSK (its in the same structure and style but many elements of the testament are decidedly different) but it sure looks to be the source of the story in a kind of paraphrasing and transposing way. Someone was using KOSK as the model for Ollamh Fotda's words. The question is who did this? Was it Steven Akins? Was it Thorenson? Was it Edward Kelly? Was it Roger Bacon? Was it Michael Scott? These passages are a strong testimony to the LFR being of a much later provenance than pre-Christian Irish.

At this point, and unless Akins can explain the similarities of the two passages, I'd have to objectively say that LFR is a created history/tale rather than a historical or traditional one. It seems to be from Germany or America instead. There is no Irish text but only some Irish names and words. I'm thinking that the probabilities seem to be equally spread that either Akins used KOSK for the passage, that Thorenson used it or that some other person like Kelly used it. Because MacGregor Mathers' version is so similar, it appears to be the source which rules out earlier persons like Kelly, so now we are left with 50/50 between Akins and Thorenson.

I must say that if one is going to attempt to show authenticity for an Old-Irish manuscript, then it needs to be in authentic Old Irish. Creating a modern document of that type has a lot of linguistic DNA problems associated with it. The more words and text that are provided the more likely that modern theories of composition, grammar and spelling will enter into the work, showing it's true origins. Having only a German or English source insulates the work from such scrutiny but it also does not allow for certainty to occur. At this point, without suitable explanations, I do not believe the book to be based on more than someone's imbas and ideas from the last 130 years or so.


That is the impression I'm receiving. I'm seeing a strong emphasis on the utility of the book, and while I have no doubt that some may find it useful and inspiring, it seems to be done without regards to the means that the book has been fabricated and marketed.

I think that the book has usefulness in many respects but that this is reduced by the questions raised by Greer. The same information can be had through studies of Old and Medieval Irish works as well as grimoires of various Mages. The book was marketed the way that it is because the Pagan publishing market as a whole is very much down and vanishing (at least in the opinions of most publishers). The CR FAQ was self published probably for the same reasons (though the new Print on Demand/POD publishing model allows authors to make more money for small runs than through the traditional publisher/printer/distributor model.

When I publish my own books, I will probably do it through POD and the Summerlands Press imprint. I do plan to have them read and pre-reviewed/edited by several Druid and Pagan authors just as I've done for others. I might fly my translations and Old-Irish usage past a few scholars of the language. I might even ask a couple of Ogham scholars to make some comments. The furor over Akins' book amply shows any author the pitfalls of publishing without some sort of substantiation through authorities.


Neither do I, but Akins explanations and other contributing factors have made such claims dubious at best. Again, I see little that is convincing that Akins received a copy of a German translation of an Old Irish manuscript.

The evidence I've been provided are scans of German photocopies and a scan of the envelope with post mark and return address from Thorenson's widow. I have not substantiated that the Thorensons actually lived in Alabama or were married. I haven't found a single vital record of them though the absence of evidence is not to be considered as evidence of absence. I've been told that by museum and archive personel.


I think these discussions are quite relevant here, my only issue has been the veracity of the claims concerning the provenance of the book, and it seems that you and I both agree that it is rather doubtful that the LFR is an authentic pre-Christian Irish text. That has been my issue -- I'm personally not concerned with Akins ideologies, I could care less if he is a Falangist fascist or a bleeding-heart liberal (Julius Evola was a fascist, and I openly admit that I have enjoyed some of his work), and I think it has been substantially pointed out that the LFR lacks any racist sentiments or even mentions matters regarding race or ethnicity. So, again, the provenance of the book is my concern with the LFR, not its utility or its author's politics.

I appreciate your approach and objectivity Tomás and think that our goals are pretty much the same. My opinion of LFR is now in the skeptical of origins camp but I still think it should not be completely thrown out with the bath water. If it is Akins' imbas or Ollamh Fodla's or even MacGregor Mathers', it still needs to be verified objectively and personally by each person who reads it.

Parts of LBR do not ring true to my own imbas. These include the stories of before the Gods and not-Gods of Danu came to Ireland, the ways that the rituals are structured (though Carmichael's style is good in Gaelic or Bearla), the idea that the blind Mug Roith read the Ogham staves without mention being made of his blindness (though he certainly had shamanic sight and the ability to feel the notches like Braille; mention would still have been made), Brighid being tossed out of anywhere gets my Irish up, the horned god being Cearna is not as problematic for me, the King James English just reminds me of persecutions and Christian oppression/bias/misunderstanding, rather than being flowing and inspiring for me.

I do like the Ogham Talismans and the use of the Four Cities as corresponding to directions/being associated with Hallows and qualities. I think that the pre-Christian Irish Creation Story will have to remain as a "head in a bag" or "being in a dark house" that was reported by James Carney in his translation of "The Ever Living Tongue" In his King of Mysteries. Lady Gregory also translated this text and this is her version as found in Google Books (A book of saints and wonders put down here by Lady Gregory according to the old writings and the memory of the people of Ireland (1907)

BOOK FIVE, GREAT WONDERS OF THE OLDEN TIME[/i][/b], pages 145-146):



THE WONDERS TOLD BY PHILIP THE APOSTLE THAT WAS CALLED THE EVER-LIVING TONGUE

In the old time the people used to be looking at the moon and at the sun and the rest of the stars, travelling and ever-traveling through the day,and at the flowing and ever-flowing of the world's wells and rivers, and at the sadness of the earth and the trance and the sleep of it with the coming of winter,and the rising of the world again with the coming of the summer. But it was all like a head in a bag to them or like living in a dark house, until such time as Philip the Apostle told the whole story of the making of heaven and earth at the great gathering in the east of the world. It is the way that gathering was, it lasted through the four seasons under nine hundred white golden-crowned canopies upon the hill of Sion. And five thousand nine hundred and fifty tower-candles and precious stones there were kindled and giving out light that there might be no hindrance from any sort of weather. Late now upon Easter Eve there was heard a clear voice that was speaking the language of the angels, and the sound of it was like the laughter of an army or like the outcry of a very big wind; and with that it was no louder than the talk of friend in the ear of friend, and it was sweeter than any music.

This "unknowing" is more like other Indo-European Creation stories, even the Vedic stories that could possibly be sources for Genesis.

"Read books!" my daughter always says. That way one can achieve a balance between what is claimed and said and what can actually be as truth.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Halstrom]

There is no proof of a Henry Thorenson who was married married to an Evelyn Thorenson. While there is proof that people with these names can be found, there is no proof that they married.

Check this out:

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&msT=0&gss=ms_r_f-2&gsfn=Henry&gsln=Thorenson&ne=2

Henry Thorenson, all nine records of him are at the top, and Evelyn Thorenson, is all the way at the bottom.

[odubhain]

There is no proof of a Henry Thorenson who was married married to an Evelyn Thorenson. While there is proof that people with these names can be found, there is no proof that they married.

Check this out:

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&msT=0&gss=ms_r_f-2&gsfn=Henry&gsln=Thorenson&ne=2

Henry Thorenson, all nine records of him are at the top, and Evelyn Thorenson, is all the way at the bottom.


I'd looked through hundreds of such records and searches without finding a Henry or Evelyn Thorenson from Alabama. I thought maybe Steven Akins had purposely reported the name incorrectly to protect their privacy, but the envelope scan he provided reads 'Evelyn Thorenson" on the return address.

Searles

[Seren_]

This is my case in point. "Portions of the book that have been made available publicly" is not honest opinions based on an unbiased reading of the material of the book. The book is cheap and is on eBay. Noone should be debating the book without reading it but there you are.

The thing is, when people start picking apart a few chapters of a book, it kinda makes people wonder if it has any merit at all, especially when claims of historicity have been made. And increasingly, as more and more things come to light, it seems that even those who've read the whole book are becoming as sceptical as those who've only seen bits of it and have spoken to Mr Akins himself.

Maybe now's a good time to summarise the main points that have been raised here and elsewhere? It seems as if some people across the internet are simply dismissing criticisms on the basis of the fact that, "oh, they're a competing author," or "oh, they're CR, of course they'll disagree" and so on.

(I'd like to apologise in advance if the thread ends up falling over under the weight of my own waffle but if anything at least you'll see where I'm coming from in my criticism of Mr Akins, along with a few other people who've raised these points as well...)


Origins and Transmission

A large bone of contention in discussing the book is the provenance of the Lebor Feasa Runda in a tome known as The Black Book of Loughcrew. Neither the Lebor Feasa Runda, nor The Black Book, has ever been attested to outside of Mr Akins' work and the alleged manuscript from which he claims to have obtained from Mr Thorenson's widow.

Historians are aware of several manuscripts that haven't survived to the modern day, but which were named specifically by the monks who were referring to them in their copying and re-recording of the myths. We have an idea of the sorts of things they contained, but not the actual manuscripts themselves. Dr Bernhardt-House mentions several examples in his Preview (http://community.livejournal.com/cr_r/318578.html) and The Black Book is not among them. Historical record doesn't support Mr Akins' claim and I think this is a major problem that he's yet to address satisfactorily in particular.

Factoring in the claims that have been made that the Black Book made its way to Glastonbury in the 10th century, then the Knights Templar, the Bavarian Illuminati, Franciscan Friar Roger Bacon, Henry Cornelius Agrippa, John Dee and Edward Kelly, Francis Dashwood of the Hellfire Club, and then fell into Nazi hands, and may have influenced works of ceremonial magic such as the Key of Solomon along the way, plus the fact that Crowley was then allegedly approached to interview Hess after his capture by the British and the discovery of the manuscript by MI6. But with no record independent of Mr Akins' own work, the case isn't looking too strong. A well-travelled Irish manuscript that just failed to get a mention anywhere during the course of its history?

Without any independent historical evidence for the existence of the Black Book in the first place, the weight of probability really is against him.

Of course this raises the question of whether this is simply a mistake on Mr Akins' part – that he's been duped by Henry Thorenson's widow into believing the manuscript is authentic, but as a self-described 'notable Celtic scholar' you'd think he would have considered this and tried to address it.

I understand the reasons for Searles wanting to keep criticisms of the book relating specifically to the content of the book itself, but I do think that the other factors that have formed a large part of the criticisms levelled at Mr Akins against his work are, to a certain extent, fair. I think it's natural when such claims as these are made, which many people consider to be outlandish, that people should question why they should believe the source the claims are coming from.

When the author happens to have made previous claims that are allegedly fraudulent, (http://www.ian-stewart.eu/z-sja-main.html) and when this claim happens to involve fraudulently contrived historical documents (http://homepage.eircom.net/%257Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/akins2.htm) and gravestones, (http://homepage.eircom.net/%257Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/akins1.htm) I think it's only fair for people to question the authenticity of the documents involved with the book as well, especially when no originals exist. It's not a stretch to assume that maybe, if he's done it once before, maybe he's done it again here: If he apparently provided false historical documentation in one case, it's natural for people to wonder if the same is happening here.

This is pure speculation, of course, but factor in the complete lack of any historical evidence to corroborate the claims being made for the Black Book of Loughcrew even existing in the first place, along with everything else, well...


Henry Thorenson

The existence of Henry or Evelyn Thorenson has yet to be proven as fact. Mr Akins has provided photographic evidence of an envelope with a PO Box addressed to Mrs Thorenson, (http://www.geocities.com/lebor_feasa_runda/history) along with a photo of a couple he claims are the Thorenson's on their wedding day, but this is hardly substantial proof. There is nothing, so far, to corroborate any of these claims.


Pentagrams

His claims that the druids used pentagrams in their rituals comes from an interpretation of the etymology of the German for pentagram, 'drudenfuss' (I.e. 'druid's foot') (http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34839&page=12) which he cites from masonic sources, as well as mention of the pentacles being worn on druid's sandals as Searles noted. The German wikipedia article (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagramm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddrudenfuss%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN) on drudenfuss makes no mention of this, and instead details that inverse pentagrams were commonly used as protective charms against druden, or night elves.

It seems clear that the idea of the 'druid's foot' is a folk etymology at best. He also gives evidence of some examples of Gaulish coinage (http://www.kernunnos.com/dlt/images/carnutes_BN6515-16.jpg) bearing pentagrams on them. Clearly this supports the case that some Celts, at the very least, were aware of the symbol, but it doesn't prove that they used it in a ritual context. Comparison with coins from other countries (http://www.ancient-art.com/images/gs144.jpg) (Thrace, in this example) during this time period seems to suggest that perhaps they may have simply been copying art forms and styles, just as they copied the concept of using coins themselves.

This is all inconclusive at best, but notably none of the examples have anything to do with Ireland itself. The lack of contextual evidence relating to the country being focused on in the book really doesn't support his case here.

[Seren_]

(continued)

Pythagorean Doctrine

Mr Akins has frequently cited Classical evidence, relating to the continental Celts, in support of his arguments relating to the insular (specifically Irish) Celts. One argument offered is that Classical sources clearly show the druids accepted 'the Pythagorean Doctrine' as proof that the druids used the concept of the five elements and pentagrams in their rituals; however, the context of the sources provided to support his case seem to refer to the idea of reincarnation rather than the concept of the five elements. (http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1042474&postcount=58)

It's well-known that Classical authors tended to refer other authors who were considered to be respected authorities on a particular subject when writing about it themselves, so they conformed to 'accepted' ideas on a given matter. They also put things in terms that their audience would understand, so to say 'Pythagorean doctrine' would give most readers a point of reference to understand the author when talking about a foreign people and their foreign concepts, but this doesn't mean the author meant it literally.

Also I'm not sure that, strictly speaking, five elements were part of Pythagorean doctrine. The fifth element was a Platonic concept, and while the Platonists were indebted to Pythagorean works, it wasn't until the neo-Pythagoreans of the medieval period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram#Pythagoreans) that it all came together. Either way, it's again notable that no native sources have been provided to support the argument.


Origin myth

Several people have raised questions about many of the elements found in the origin myth that's been made available across a few sites. Arguably the obvious similarities between the myth of Hades and Persephone can be put down to a common Indo-European origin for the myth motif, so that in itself isn't conclusive.

I asked Mr Akins about the presence of the snake in the story, since they aren't native to Ireland, along with the emphasis of the horned god, Cerna, an otherwise unheard of Irish deity. It seemed odd that both of these would play such an important part in an otherwise unheard of origin myth. He raised the associations of the snakes with Brigid in Scotland as supporting evidence (but again, this doesn't have much relevance to Ireland).

Part of his evidence for Cerna points to mention of "You must not hunt the evil-beasts of Cerna" in the tale of The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel, but as it's been noted by Dr Berhardt-House, Cerna in this instance refers to a place, not a person. Mr Akins also notes the possible horned associations of Conall Cearnach and Derg Corra, and argues that the figure of Cerna himself was deliberately edited out of Irish myths (http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/index.php?topic=25910.msg253149#msg253149) as they were being recorded by the early medieval Christian monks because they wanted to play down the overt pagan connotations of his character that were clearly incompatible with Biblical or Church doctrine.

This argument seems unconvincing because it's debatable how much of a coordinated effort the recording of these myths actually was between the monasteries. Considering many of the other overtly pagan motifs that aren't too compatible with the Bible that survived in myth and legend, like the symbolic marriage of the king to the land and the involvement of a sovereignty goddess like Eriu in choosing a king, it seems unlikely.

If anything, if it's going to be argued that there's evidence of horned gods in Irish myth (and Dr Bernhardt-House gives another example of Ferbaide Ferr Benn from the Dindshenchas), (http://community.livejournal.com/cr_r/318578.html) isn't it more likely that what we're seeing is evidence of local deities with common motifs (being horns, obviously).

This brings me to another idea: The presentation of the Lebor Feasa Runda as a holy text of Irish druids seems to be at odds with the clear evidence of such localised deities and localised traditions that have evolved from ancient times to modern. The book presents an Irish origin legend, but the concept of an Irish people all worshipping the same gods with an established and widely accepted body of mythology isn't borne out by the fact that the monasteries who recorded the myths were obviously having to reconcile the many contradictions between the different manuscripts they were referring to when they wrote them down. For many gods, their genealogies don't always match from one tale to another, let alone from one medieval text produced at one monastery compared to another.



Linguistic problems

The manuscript was originally supposed to have been transcribed from the Old Irish ogam sticks in the third century, but as Dr Bernhardt-House points (http://community.livejournal.com/cr_r/318578.html) out Old Irish didn't exist at this point – not until two centuries later. Of course this may point to some poor scholarship on Henry Thorenson's or Mr Akins' part, but this is not an isolated incident.

I'm not a linguist, but Dr Bernhardt-House has listed some of the problems with the apparent mixing of Old Irish and more modern Irish words even in the title of the book itself, in the link above.

Having presented himself as a scholar, which to me implies that the book itself contains scholarly work on the subject being dealt with, Mr Akins should surely have recognised these points and addressed them, rather than dismissing them as being something he simply inherited from Henry Thorenson's translation.

Had the manuscript been submitted for peer review by a linguist I think it would have been easy to determine whether these linguistic inconsistencies are likely to be the result of the manuscript being a modern contrivance, or the result of the original manuscripts convoluted history of transmission until it fell into Nazi hands.

Mr Akins has made the reasons for his decisions not to submit the manuscript for peer review quite clear; on the one hand he's said he did make approaches to some academics for this purpose, but was refused or turned them down for one reason or another; but then he's said he sees no reason, as an independent scholar, to bow to the establishment, as it were. (http://www.pagan-network.org/forums/index.php?topic=25910.msg253246#msg253246)

Ultimately, peer review would have clearly helped Mr Akins establish some credibility in his claims, assuming his claims were supported by academia. I don't think it's unfair to say at this point that given the above (and below) considerations, that academic support would have been unlikely.


Anachronisms

There are clear anachronisms within the text. While Mr Akins has conceded some of the points raised, there are clear pointers that if Mr Akins did indeed come by a German translation of an early Irish manuscript then it has been clearly compromised by later sources such as Iolo Morganwg and songs from the Carmina Gadelica, and the points that John Michael Greer raised (http://intothemound.blogspot.com/2009/02/creeping-druid-fakery.html) in the link that Tomas originally posted.

While some of these anachronisms can be explained as originating with Henry Thorenson's work that Mr Akins has then translated in good faith, some of the points John Michael Greer raises clearly points to anachronisms later than the 1960s (when Thorenson was making his final manuscript from which Mr Akins made his translation, according to what he's said).

This would obviously point to Mr Akins' involvement in directly deceiving his readers and I think it's an important point. Mr Akins has yet to adequately address these anachronisms in general, certainly not the more specific ones levelled against him in a specifically modern context. Plagiarism is a serious allegation, and coming from John Michael Greer, an author that Mr Akins himself sent an unsolicited copy of his book to for review, I think it's fair to say that even Mr Akins wouldn't accuse the critic of being part of “...a small coterie of far left-leaning, politically liberal radicals who see Paganism as being the private property of homosexuals, feminists, and multi-culturalists, from which anyone of a more conservative outlook should be excluded.” As he's dismissed many of his other critics as being. (http://raven-wildewood.livejournal.com/525.html)

Given all this, yes I'm sceptical about Mr Akins' claims. Does all this mean that he has no valuable insights at all? Not necessarily. In a modern context, then perhaps he does; that's entirely subjective and depends on what the reader gets out of it. Some may see the work as being a great effort at working Irish myth into a modern druidic path and if it works for them then it's all good. But personally I would lay much more credence on his work if he'd been honest and forthright about how he built his path and where his sources came from right from the start.

[skilly-nilly]

In the face of an overwhelming revulsion towards ever discussing the subject again I am forced to say, "Well done!".:crown:

Very dispassionate. :toofless:

[odubhain]

I have to say that the ball is in Steven Akins' court now. He should be able to substantiate more about the existence of the Thorensons at the very least.

I personally did not find Bernhardt-House's linguistic arguments very convincing but the great similarity of the Ollamh Fodla text to the Key of King Soloman text was (to me) a huge blow to that part of the LFR text being authentic. If any of it is authentic at all then it obviously has suffered from being reinterpreted and restated by several people.

I do like parts of it practically especially in the use of Ogham names for talismans. This parallels a use that I already embraced for them in my own practices. The idea of Ogham names being magical is one that is very old in Irish tradition, not withstanding Damian MacManus' attempts to negate and debunk any magical use for Ogham at all. He takes the modern view that all of that is pure superstition and misunderstanding on he part of those who do. I strongly disagree with him and that position.

All in all, Seren has provided us with a very fair and complete review of the issues surrounding the authenticity of LFR and its author (unlike others who seemed to have an agenda of sorts against the author). Sticking strictly to what the text says and demonstrates shows a higher level of criticism and understanding.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Seren_]

In the face of an overwhelming revulsion towards ever discussing the subject again I am forced to say, "Well done!".:crown:

Very dispassionate. :toofless:

:lol: Thanks.


The reviews, including yours, say that the racist and homophobic materials he's posted on a number of forums recently are not in the substance of the book. I've seen no posters disputing that point; so I don't see anything getting in the way of discussing the content and wild claims the author makes.

Except that the very basis of the origin myth that's been presented ties in directly with a point that Mr Akins has been using to market his book on several White Nationalist websites (Stormfront, New Saxon).



"The fact that the Lebor Feasa Rúnda apparently corroborated the Thule doctrine of Aryan racial origins led to Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler ordering its siezure by the S.S. following Adolf Hitler’s rise to power." If we consider the book to be a modern work written by Mr Akins himself, then I think it changes the tone of the book completely; at their core, it could be argued that the myths he presents have been explicitly written to fit in with his own beliefs of Aryan theory. Aside from the fact that scientific support for the theory is pretty much non-existent these days, it gives a subtle undercurrent that certainly makes me uncomfortable to say the least.


I have to say that the ball is in Steven Akins' court now. He should be able to substantiate more about the existence of the Thorensons at the very least.

I personally did not find Bernhardt-House's linguistic arguments very convincing but the great similarity of the Ollamh Fodla text to the Key of King Soloman text was (to me) a huge blow to that part of the LFR text being authentic. If any of it is authentic at all then it obviously has suffered from being reinterpreted and restated by several people.

I do like parts of it practically especially in the use of Ogham names for talismans. This parallels a use that I already embraced for them in my own practices. The idea of Ogham names being magical is one that is very old in Irish tradition, not withstanding Damian MacManus' attempts to negate and debunk any magical use for Ogham at all. He takes the modern view that all of that is pure superstition and misunderstanding on he part of those who do. I strongly disagree with him and that position.

All in all, Seren has provided us with a very fair and complete review of the issues surrounding the authenticity of LFR and its author (unlike others who seemed to have an agenda of sorts against the author). Sticking strictly to what the text says and demonstrates shows a higher level of criticism and understanding.

Searles O'Dubhain

Thanks Searles. What about the linguistic arguments did you find unconvincing?

I agree that there are examples of magical use of ogam (I believe there's mention of druids using it to divine what the enemy camp are up to in some myths, if memory serves). I've yet to get round to reading McManus' book.

I was wondering if these:

http://www.paganforum.com/index.php/topic,15825.msg278081.html#msg278081
http://www.paganforum.com/index.php/topic,13675.msg278038.html#msg278038
http://www.paganforum.com/index.php/topic,15841.msg278033.html#msg278033

Are representative of the rituals presented in the book? If they are, I can see there are clear references to the Carmina Gadelica, and the mention of 'watchtowers' at the very least indicates influence from John Dee's work (though the most obvious source would be Wiccan, of course).

Some of the bits are directly lifted from Carmina Gadelica (song 216 from Volume 2 is one of them), and without any referencing I think it's certainly bordering on plagiarism, if not an outright example.

The nine foot diameter for the circle, the tools and the use of sword and the reasons for casting it that are given is very Wiccan, it seems, or at the very least heavily influenced from ceremonial magic.

[odubhain]

:lol: Thanks.



Except that the very basis of the origin myth that's been presented ties in directly with a point that Mr Akins has been using to market his book on several White Nationalist websites (Stormfront, New Saxon).

If we consider the book to be a modern work written by Mr Akins himself, then I think it changes the tone of the book completely; at their core, it could be argued that the myths he presents have been explicitly written to fit in with his own beliefs of Aryan theory. Aside from the fact that scientific support for the theory is pretty much non-existent these days, it gives a subtle undercurrent that certainly makes me uncomfortable to say the least.

What do you see as Akins' beliefs of Aryan theory?


Thanks Searles. What about the linguistic arguments did you find unconvincing?

I'll post more about this in a separate thread.Thoughts on Old Irish Critiques of Lebor Feasa Rúnda (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=209727)


I agree that there are examples of magical use of ogam (I believe there's mention of druids using it to divine what the enemy camp are up to in some myths, if memory serves). I've yet to get round to reading McManus' book.

McManus' work represents the pinnacle of scholarly research regarding Ogham. Unfortunately, this research attempts to diminish magical or spiritual aspects of Ogham. However, one should read what scholars have presented even if one disagrees with them for the primary reason that scholars attempt to present the facts that are known before drawing their own conclusions using their viewpoints and logic. One can stand on the shoulders of nearsighted giants and still see further than when submerged in the jungles of chaos.


I was wondering if these:

http://www.paganforum.com/index.php/topic,15825.msg278081.html#msg278081
http://www.paganforum.com/index.php/topic,13675.msg278038.html#msg278038
http://www.paganforum.com/index.php/topic,15841.msg278033.html#msg278033

Are representative of the rituals presented in the book? If they are, I can see there are clear references to the Carmina Gadelica, and the mention of 'watchtowers' at the very least indicates influence from John Dee's work (though the most obvious source would be Wiccan, of course).

The first ritual is found on pages 115-118 of LFR and is titled "The Invocation of the Goddess."

The second ritual is on pages 147-148 of LFR and is titled "The Making of Effigies."

The third ritual is on pages 109-114 and is called "The Circle of Conjuration"

Each ritual is a chapter in the book(19, 24 and 18, respectively). There is perhaps a short paragraph introducing the ritual and few notes explaining its significance in each chapter.

I specifically asked Steven Akins about "watchtowers" used in his work and he replied to me that the actual German word used meant something like "citadel" or "fortress." I assumed that he chose words that were more like common neo-Pagan expressions because he felt more comfortably with that himself and also considered that others in the Pagan public would as well.

This seemed to me to be an author's prerogative and I viewed the use of King James English or styles extremely close to the invocations, charms and blessings of Carmina Gadelica to follow in the same way (and for much the same reasons). Akins expressed the translations of LFR to suit his own tastes in expression and belief. He told me point blank that his translation was not exact and word for word but was expressed based on the essence of what was said in the German text after his first efforts at rendering it into English. I saw this as being akin to the way that Lady Gregory expressed the Irish tales in her own way and perception of Irish and their flavor (but based on translations by herself and other scholars like Stokes, Meyer, O'Donovan, O'Curry, Reeves, Todd, Henebry, O'Donoghue, O'Beirne Crowe, M. d'Arbois de Jubainville, Atkinson, Rev. Dr. Bernard, Edward Gwynn, Rev. M. O'Riordan and to An Craoibhin).

From what I've seen in regard to the KOSK, it would seem that Akins may have gone beyond the approach of Lady Gregory and is very close to the methods of Iolo. This doesn't mean that the text and rituals should be ignored (after all Carmina Gadelica authentically comes from Gaelic tradition and the ideas of Lebor Gabal, Cath Maige Tuired and even Keating's History of Ireland do come out of Irish tradition or history) but it does mean they are the inspiration of one person based on the works of others as well as their own agendas.


Some of the bits are directly lifted from Carmina Gadelica (song 216 from Volume 2 is one of them), and without any referencing I think it's certainly bordering on plagiarism, if not an outright example.

My impression is that they are paraphrased from Carmina Gadelica but more or less on a line to line basis, which defeats the purpose of paraphrasing, which is to place the ideas of another in one's own thoughts and words. Simply put, one cannot change a few words and claim the ideas of one person are another's. The organization, flavor, shape, expression and presentation of a paraphrase should be distinct from the words of its author yet should also express the concepts contained within them with hopefully new points and ideas contributed by those using these original thoughts and words.


The nine foot diameter for the circle, the tools and the use of sword and the reasons for casting it that are given is very Wiccan, it seems, or at the very least heavily influenced from ceremonial magic.

That was also my impression. I ignored the Second part of the book (with the exception of the Ogham) as it seemed to me to be too heavily influenced by modern neo-Pagan ritual and the Carmina Gadelica. The rituals of the religious group that I follow in my own practice speak more closely to my beliefs and principles.

Searles O'Dubhain

[_Banbha_]

Thank you for the excellent summation Seren! :thumbsup:


Except that the very basis of the origin myth that's been presented ties in directly with a point that Mr Akins has been using to market his book on several White Nationalist websites (Stormfront, New Saxon).


"The fact that the Lebor Feasa Rúnda apparently corroborated the Thule doctrine of Aryan racial origins led to Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler ordering its siezure by the S.S. following Adolf Hitler’s rise to power."

If we consider the book to be a modern work written by Mr Akins himself, then I think it changes the tone of the book completely; at their core, it could be argued that the myths he presents have been explicitly written to fit in with his own beliefs of Aryan theory. Aside from the fact that scientific support for the theory is pretty much non-existent these days, it gives a subtle undercurrent that certainly makes me uncomfortable to say the least.

Yes, I agree and it's directly from the prologue of the LFR. It's a point he stresses on the White Nationalist websites as opposed to Pagan ones. I would venture he is speaking directly to a main target audience with that.

[odubhain]

Thank you for the excellent summation Seren! :thumbsup:



Yes, I agree and it's directly from the prologue of the LFR. It's a point he stresses on the White Nationalist websites as opposed to Pagan ones. I would venture he is speaking directly to a main target audience with that.

Since I don't read "White Nationalist websites" could someone please quote instances where Steven Akins is stressing this aspect of his book on them?

The few times I went to Storm Front from links here, I did not see where he had done what is being said here.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

The recurring issue of fraud here is really silly in my opinion when applied to religion. Really religion is something far too subjective to have something like fraud attached to it and when you being to stress authenticity in religion you are running the risk of inauthenticity.

Take Irelands pre-christian religion as a common example of a traditional religion thats being reconstructed by some. The religion evolved because of social and geographical pressures and continued to evolve with Irish culture over the millennia. While in a modernist society Tradition may be seen as counterproductive to any sort of innovation Traditions do evolve and change within a set framework.

For example the Land goddess going from the sovereign in early Ireland to the cailleach in the middle ages to the witch\herbalist in contemporary folklore. Likewise the mountain god going from the ancestral figure, to crom cruach to the haunting mountain spirits\fairy.

They changed as the culture changed and likewise if you take that religion and move it to a new society and culture it will have to change to be relevant.

Does any reconstructionist expect that their children will go booleying at Beltaine. The seasonal form of transhumance that facilitated the blessing of the herds through the beltaine fires?

Does anyone expect that all their local non dairy non breeding stock of cattle will be killed off at Samhain to preserve silage for the dairy herd. Will you get rid of your freezers and return to salting their meat - a practice that facilitated that winter feast?

Religion needs to change with the society or it will fail. Stressing authenticity in Irish religions to any great extent when you intend to use it outside the culture that has spawned it (and facilitates its preservation in a traditional context) will only lead to a stagnant inauthentic product.

LFR is not trad Irish, it makes alot of mistakes but it has two great redeeming features.

1. It is a magical system based on senchas.
The author has a deep knowlege of the senchas to compose those myths and to thread the strands together into something coherent. I am open to correction but I thought that was the goal of most recons and trads.

2. It does not require in depth study
LFR outlines a simple system and deep study is not for everyone but everyone has a right to learn the traditions. While LFR is not traditional it is very close and with a small amount of study people can expand on what they know.

In all fairness steven atkins may be a nazi and that offends people. The solid truth of it is I view alot of American governments equally as abhorrant as Hitlers germany but I dont go around dismissing CR because American people love America and support their government...

My culture is different to american culture, my values are at odds with alot of what is culturally american. If I dismissed every american and barred them from the possiblity of doing anything meaningfull to a member of the Irish culture because of that would I be right? Put yourself in Stevens position, its not a good place. Moderation and tolarance should be applied here

[Nuadu]

What, and Irish Polytheism is thriving in Ireland? Simply "absorbing" the culture is going to revitalize Irish Polytheism? Not that I undermine culture's importance in these matters, but reconstruction, on quite a few levels, is necessary for a viable, contemporary Irish Polytheism.

Irish religion does not need reconstructing in Ireland but I can imagine it might appear that way.

Irish paganism is a vast subject that is active in all aspects Irish culture both historical and contemporary. It is not something that can be boiled down into a book of "all the secrets of Irish paganism" for €9.99. It is something innate in Irish culture that requires life long study of the culture. Knowlege will not come in a rush to anyone you get it in slow drips through consistant focussed study. That being the case even if someone better informed then me could write a beginner book they are not going to do it. A few dedicated people that love their culture is far better then the half interested, self professed high priestly masses with half an understanding that you get in pop wicca.

The only thing I can say to you that might prove things in an empiracal and rational way is: how many professors in any country publish books on their native paganism through their university press. Queens University, University College Cork and Dublin have pagan professors that publish. If you need more proof then that I recommend you move here and do celtic studies.

[Seren_]

The recurring issue of fraud here is really silly in my opinion when applied to religion. Really religion is something far too subjective to have something like fraud attached to it and when you being to stress authenticity in religion you are running the risk of inauthenticity.

If you read what people are actually saying, it's the claims of historicity that are being disputed. Not the validity of the path Mr Akins is presenting.

Many paths may have murky beginnings for one reason or another but that doesn't detract from the fact that many people still find them to be incredibly fulfilling. Wicca isn't The Olde Religion going back to the Paleolithic, as I was taught nearly 15 years ago now, but just because it's now generally accepted to be a modern path having its origins with Gardner, doesn't mean it's any less valid for those who find it works for them. Most Wiccans these days are comfortable with the fact that their religion is relatively modern. I don't understand why other people can't be, too, with their own path.

Again: If the author was not claiming the book to be an authentic druid text, then people wouldn't be criticising it.

[_Banbha_]

Since I don't read "White Nationalist websites" could someone please quote instances where Steven Akins is stressing this aspect of his book on them?

The few times I went to Storm Front from links here, I did not see where he had done what is being said here.

Searles O'Dubhain

A Stormfront link (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:X1tofqAu1WYJ:www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D6098827+lebor+feasa+runda&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us) posted here showed Akins posting his prologue not in it's own thread, but in a thread entitled "The Golden Age", in the Ideology and Philosophy: Foundations for White Nationalism forum, discussing origin myths.

There are other links where Akins has posted about the LFR for discussion he drags out his "race science" graphs and stats, with maps showing migrations of various bits of DNA, with his own standard racist analysis all in attempt to provide proof for his theories. You might better to ask him what this has to do with the LFR.

[Seren_]

A Stormfront link (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:X1tofqAu1WYJ:www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D6098827+lebor+feasa+runda&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us) posted here showed Akins posting his prologue not in it's own thread, but in a thread entitled "The Golden Age", in the Ideology and Philosophy: Foundations for White Nationalism forum, discussing origin myths.

There's also http://newsaxon.org/forum/posts/id_2822


There are other links where Akins has posted about the LFR for discussion he drags out his "race science" graphs and stats, with maps showing migrations of various bits of DNA, with his own standard racist analysis all in attempt to provide proof for his theories. You might better to ask him what this has to do with the LFR.I think this one goes into it in some depth (http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116996&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) and goes into Mr Akins' Aryan theory as well, in addition to the threads I linked to in my summary.

In relation to the book, Searles, he gives a summary of the Aryan connections here: (http://raven-wildewood.livejournal.com/525.html)


I think that the Nazis saw some of the stories in the Lebor Feasa Runda as supportive of their theory that the Aryan race originated from a lost continent like Atlantis or Thule. The Lebor Feasa Runda relates how the gods once lived on an immortal island that lay to the west of Ireland until it sank beneath the Atlantic Ocean; this island was also the birthplace of the human race according to Celtic legend. Then, of course, there is the fact that the Lebor Feasa Runda reveals techniques by which the ancient gods of the Celts can be summoned to give their aid and assistance to those who contact them by means of magical operations; a prospect which may well have held an enormous appeal to the Nazis in their efforts to establish military domanince over Europe.Ben Edair highlighted an excerpt from the book (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3778992&postcount=14) that says pretty much the same.

In effect, then, it shows the rituals and magic have their roots with the Aryans themselves.

[_Banbha_]

There's also http://newsaxon.org/forum/posts/id_2822

I think this one goes into it in some depth (http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116996&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) and goes into Mr Akins' Aryan theory as well, in addition to the threads I linked to in my summary.

Yes, thanks, this is the main one I was referring to. :) It seems important to him that his race theories are connected with discussions of the LFR.


In relation to the book, Searles, he gives a summary of the Aryan connections here: (http://raven-wildewood.livejournal.com/525.html)


Ben Edair highlighted an excerpt from the book (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3778992&postcount=14) that says pretty much the same.

In effect, then, it shows the rituals and magic have their roots with the Aryans themselves.

[odubhain]

There's also http://newsaxon.org/forum/posts/id_2822

I think this one goes into it in some depth (http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116996&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) and goes into Mr Akins' Aryan theory as well, in addition to the threads I linked to in my summary.

I know that Steven Akins believes very strongly in what he says is "a separation of races." Now this idea is one that often crosses the line between valuing one's culture and becoming racist (as in considering one race to be better or vastly different and to be preferred to another simply because of race). It becomes particularly abhorrent when one race is held up as being somehow better than another. The same thing applies to nationalism and separating one's nation from others or holding the views and practices of one's nation above those of others simply because they come from that nation alone and for no other reason.

I'm not so PC that I don't understand what is meant by race in most discussions. Humans are all one species and have almost everything about them as a common genetic heritage. That's pretty clear in terms of how we can and do reproduce. There are some differences to various groups of people in terms of skin pigment, hair types, eye shapes and other minor differences but these really don't mean much except in terms of personal preferences and aesthetics if that. Race should not be important in terms of how we value one another as human beings in much the same way that gender, religion, sexual orientation, sex, and nation should not bias us about one another or even influence how we behave toward one another.

Sadly, people are biased creatures most of the time no matter how PC they attempt to appear. Everyone has their hot buttons and beliefs. The important things to me are that there are basic human rights that all people should be accorded and that there should be a respect of other people and one's self based on those fundamental rights. I may not like a person's music, type of expression or even how they do their hair but by and large I keep in mind that they probably feel the same way about me at times. This is a tricky subject and has a lot of pitfalls and traps within it. Understanding and respecting basic human rights is a great general help to avoiding those fallacies and even cesspools (they're like the "Eternal Stench in the movie "Labyrinth"). It's easy to lose one's way in these areas.

What I've seen at these links shows me that Steven Akins seems excessive in guarding and fostering his ideas about race, culture and even "ethnic purity." He truly does believe that races should be segregated in their relationships with one another and particularly in terms of probably education, neighborhoods, marriage, procreation and culture. I think that Steven is an OK person otherwise. He seems to be a good parent, a good citizen and a person who does not violate laws or otherwise attempt to harm others. He's extreme on the issue of race however. I don't agree with his position at all. There's a lot of people with whom I disagree on these issues as well; some of them I respect otherwise and some of them are so bad that I think they should be locked up to prevent them from doing additional harm to others (i.e. those who have committed criminal acts and particularly hate crimes). Steven is not one of those persons to my knowledge.

Celtic culture for me is epitomized by two guys I know in Texas who are CR or at least GT. These guys are very into Scottish culture but one of the things they really like is called "duct tape." They think "duct tape" would have been loved by our Celtic ancestors and I agree with them. One can use it for thousands of useful applications. Celtic culture is a culture based on what's good for the family and people . Duct tape is a gift from the gods and hence should have a strong place in modern Celtic cultures IMO. How could it not? There must be a deity of duct tape. It is the principle of coherence and binding. It is the uniting principle. I think the Dagda must have caused duct tape to come into the world. Duct tape can patch up the Coire Ermae and even teh Liberty Bell. OTOH, I think it must have been Lir or Manánnan who caused WD-40 to manifest. It is the essence of the principle of freeing things up and facilitating movement. It's an element of the Coire Goriath.

There are a lot of elements of modern life that are gifts to us from the gods. We should not isolate ourselves or our cultures from them. Other people are high on the list of things, beings, ideas and characteristics from which we should not be isolated if we expect our culture to survive. Some DeVanes (my family name in English) are not racially pure. In fact I'd same that most of us are not racially pure and to me that's a good thing, because it means that we have within us as much of what it means to be human as we have the chance to be. In my extended family, the MacNeill of Barra will someday be of Gaelic and Oriental heritage. That's also a good thing because otherwise The MacNeill would be without a wife or children and hence, the ancient home place on Barra would be in greater ruin than it is and that part of the family would be diminished.

I could go on and on about this but the important thing IMO is that being Celtic,Irish, Scottish, Gaelic or what have you, is a strand of many threads that are bound together by common culture and ideals as well as an attitude about being (Bill and Ted) excellent. They embrace the good and turn the left side to that which is bad for them and their families. Being closed off against one another deserves the presentation of the left side of our chariots at the least.

I hope Steven grows out of this closed and excluding aspect of his nature and looks beyond ideas such as race or religion, sexual orientation or nation to see the potential of all humanity to enhance and give excellence to our culture. Lugh was Samildánach (many-skilled) but he was also of two cultures, peoples and even types of beings. He was the many expressed within the one. He was the high point of one part of our ancestral traditions and a fine example for our present traditions. Let's embrace the good in all of us (for that is where The Dagda abides in excellence and in goodness of all types, even humor, philosophy and ability). The LFR should also not be thrown out the window just because its author has some strange or fringe ideas about some things. He's not all that bad no matter how he is being painted. I've met the man and like him though I don't agree with a lot of his ideas about race. To me, the freedom to associate even when we don't even like one another is an important strength that humans have exclusively of their own. Let's just not kill one another in our differences. Instead, let's learn and uphold the good within each of us.


In relation to the book, Searles, he gives a summary of the Aryan connections here: (http://raven-wildewood.livejournal.com/525.html)

Ben Edair highlighted an excerpt from the book (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3778992&postcount=14) that says pretty much the same.

In effect, then, it shows the rituals and magic have their roots with the Aryans themselves.

Aryan theory is something that should be avoided since it is an idea that has been shown to be in error. DNA tracking and other ways of showing how people and cultures migrated or diffused to the point where we got where we are now are different theories that still have their day. Anthropologists,scientists, linguists and scholars are still trying to use them like duct tape and WD40 (the Brahma and Vishnu of the modern world and that's no Shiva!).

Thanks for the links and the research. It does show why Steven Akins believes his research and writing is important to culture. It might be true in many ways for all the wrong reasons however but that does not negate how others can use the information and knowledge. It does provide an open-eyed context. I recommend that for every book and idea that we encounter in attempting to live our culture and express our concepts.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Meabh23]

I know that Steven Akins believes very strongly in what he says is "a separation of races." Now this idea is one that often crosses the line between valuing one's culture and becoming racist (as in considering one race to be better or vastly different and to be preferred to another simply because of race). It becomes particularly abhorrent when one race is held up as being somehow better than another. The same thing applies to nationalism and separating one's nation from others or holding the views and practices of one's nation above those of others simply because they come from that nation alone and for no other reason.

I'm not so PC that I don't understand what is meant by race in most discussions. Humans are all one species and have almost everything about them as a common genetic heritage. That's pretty clear in terms of how we can and do reproduce. There are some differences to various groups of people in terms of skin pigment, hair types, eye shapes and other minor differences but these really don't mean much except in terms of personal preferences and aesthetics if that. Race should not be important in terms of how we value one another as human beings in much the same way that gender, religion, sexual orientation, sex, and nation should not bias us about one another or even influence how we behave toward one another.

Sadly, people are biased creatures most of the time no matter how PC they attempt to appear. Everyone has their hot buttons and beliefs. The important things to me are that there are basic human rights that all people should be accorded and that there should be a respect of other people and one's self based on those fundamental rights. I may not like a person's music, type of expression or even how they do their hair but by and large I keep in mind that they probably feel the same way about me at times. This is a tricky subject and has a lot of pitfalls and traps within it. Understanding and respecting basic human rights is a great general help to avoiding those fallacies and even cesspools (they're like the "Eternal Stench in the movie "Labyrinth"). It's easy to lose one's way in these areas.

What I've seen at these links shows me that Steven Akins seems excessive in guarding and fostering his ideas about race, culture and even "ethnic purity." He truly does believe that races should be segregated in their relationships with one another and particularly in terms of probably education, neighborhoods, marriage, procreation and culture. I think that Steven is an OK person otherwise. He seems to be a good parent, a good citizen and a person who does not violate laws or otherwise attempt to harm others. He's extreme on the issue of race however. I don't agree with his position at all. There's a lot of people with whom I disagree on these issues as well; some of them I respect otherwise and some of them are so bad that I think they should be locked up to prevent them from doing additional harm to others (i.e. those who have committed criminal acts and particularly hate crimes). Steven is not one of those persons to my knowledge.

Celtic culture for me is epitomized by two guys I know in Texas who are CR or at least GT. These guys are very into Scottish culture but one of the things they really like is called "duct tape." They think "duct tape" would have been loved by our Celtic ancestors and I agree with them. One can use it for thousands of useful applications. Celtic culture is a culture based on what's good for the family and people . Duct tape is a gift from the gods and hence should have a strong place in modern Celtic cultures IMO. How could it not? There must be a deity of duct tape. It is the principle of coherence and binding. It is the uniting principle. I think the Dagda must have caused duct tape to come into the world. Duct tape can patch up the Coire Ermae and even teh Liberty Bell. OTOH, I think it must have been Lir or Manánnan who caused WD-40 to manifest. It is the essence of the principle of freeing things up and facilitating movement. It's an element of the Coire Goriath.

There are a lot of elements of modern life that are gifts to us from the gods. We should not isolate ourselves or our cultures from them. Other people are high on the list of things, beings, ideas and characteristics from which we should not be isolated if we expect our culture to survive. Some DeVanes (my family name in English) are not racially pure. In fact I'd same that most of us are not racially pure and to me that's a good thing, because it means that we have within us as much of what it means to be human as we have the chance to be. In my extended family, the MacNeill of Barra will someday be of Gaelic and Oriental heritage. That's also a good thing because otherwise The MacNeill would be without a wife or children and hence, the ancient home place on Barra would be in greater ruin than it is and that part of the family would be diminished.

I could go on and on about this but the important thing IMO is that being Celtic,Irish, Scottish, Gaelic or what have you, is a strand of many threads that are bound together by common culture and ideals as well as an attitude about being (Bill and Ted) excellent. They embrace the good and turn the left side to that which is bad for them and their families. Being closed off against one another deserves the presentation of the left side of our chariots at the least.

I hope Steven grows out of this closed and excluding aspect of his nature and looks beyond ideas such as race or religion, sexual orientation or nation to see the potential of all humanity to enhance and give excellence to our culture. Lugh was Samildánach (many-skilled) but he was also of two cultures, peoples and even types of beings. He was the many expressed within the one. He was the high point of one part of our ancestral traditions and a fine example for our present traditions. Let's embrace the good in all of us (for that is where The Dagda abides in excellence and in goodness of all types, even humor, philosophy and ability). The LFR should also not be thrown out the window just because its author has some strange or fringe ideas about some things. He's not all that bad no matter how he is being painted. I've met the man and like him though I don't agree with a lot of his ideas about race. To me, the freedom to associate even when we don't even like one another is an important strength that humans have exclusively of their own. Let's just not kill one another in our differences. Instead, let's learn and uphold the good within each of us.



Aryan theory is something that should be avoided since it is an idea that has been shown to be in error. DNA tracking and other ways of showing how people and cultures migrated or diffused to the point where we got where we are now are different theories that still have their day. Anthropologists,scientists, linguists and scholars are still trying to use them like duct tape and WD40 (the Brahma and Vishnu of the modern world and that's no Shiva!).

Thanks for the links and the research. It does show why Steven Akins believes his research and writing is important to culture. It might be true in many ways for all the wrong reasons however but that does not negate how others can use the information and knowledge. It does provide an open-eyed context. I recommend that for every book and idea that we encounter in attempting to live our culture and express our concepts.

Searles O'Dubhain

I am one reason why Steven Atkin's racialist ideas are incorrect. I am not Celtic, nor should I be, but have much love for Celtic cultures and doings. One of my close friends taught me the Irish language and it is one of many language enrichments to my life. (Obviously modern Irish language speakers and CR proponents have different aims and focuses, but I think my example relevant and poignant.) It was learning other's cultures and languages that made me sit back a while and learn more about my own heritage and try to come up with reasoning and ideas of my own to contribute to that.

Our world is now very complex. Perhaps, and I suspect this greatly, it has always been complex in terms of cultural and racial intermingling. We are human and this is our race. (My own people have a strong cultural and national identity, but this is really geographically based more than anything else. Our own origins are the result of the great interminglings and infusions of what was once a very diverse Central Asian and Tibetan Plateau, full of influences from all sides.)

[odubhain]

I am one reason why Steven Atkin's racialist ideas are incorrect. I am not Celtic, nor should I be, but have much love for Celtic cultures and doings. One of my close friends taught me the Irish language and it is one of many language enrichments to my life. (Obviously modern Irish language speakers and CR proponents have different aims and focuses, but I think my example relevant and poignant.) It was learning other's cultures and languages that made me sit back a while and learn more about my own heritage and try to come up with reasoning and ideas of my own to contribute to that.

Our world is now very complex. Perhaps, and I suspect this greatly, it has always been complex in terms of cultural and racial intermingling. We are human and this is our race. (My own people have a strong cultural and national identity, but this is really geographically based more than anything else. Our own origins are the result of the great interminglings and infusions of what was once a very diverse Central Asian and Tibetan Plateau, full of influences from all sides.)

The world is indeed complex. How one balances an admiration for culture, arespect for ancestors and avoids either being labeled a racist or actually being a racist has many snares and tarnishes associated with it.

I personally have found that Tibetan culture along with Korean culture gives evidence to an outsider of having gone through many of the same cultural changes as Irish Celtic culture: paganism, warrior society, embracing new religion and becoming more peaceful yet still maintaing a connection to the past and even animistic beliefs in spirit.. Obviously this is not a direct one to one correlation in every respect but for magical beliefs and practices, it seems very similar to me as an outsider.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Meabh23]

The world is indeed complex. How onw balances an admiration for culture, arespect for ancestors and avoids either being labeled a racist or actually being a racist has many snares and tarnishes associated with it.

I personally have found that Tibetan culture along with Korean culture gives evidence to an outsider of having gone through many of the same cultural changes as Irish Celtic culture: paganism, warrior society, embracing new religion and becoming more peaceful yet still maintaing a connection to the past and even animistic beliefs in spirit.. Obviously this is not a direct one to one correlation in every respect but for magical beliefs and practices, it seems very similar to me as an outsider.

Searles O'Dubhain

There are many snares associated with a respect for one's own cultural traditions, ancestors and heritage, yes. These can be avoided if one simply is honest and still open to other ideas and cultural traditions, not necessarily in a sense that one would adopt them, but just to gain some understanding. On the other side, I have no problems with those who do adopt another culture. Some people are home already. Others have to do some traveling.

But even so, there will probably be people who misunderstand, and will look at attempts to preserve some cultural idea or tradition in a bad light.

My respect and passion for my own ancestors and pride in their accomplishments is I think simple, but the Han Chinese would think me racist because my view that they should quit Tibet and return to their own country. But I don't think most Tibetans ever asked for them to come to Tibet. Not as conquerors and settlers anyway. (These same Hans never question their own racist assumptions that my people were savages and needed to be brought into China's civilizing light.) Half a dozen of one....

Tibetan culture is an interesting development in that there was a conscious attempt by many thinkers and artists, religious sorts and even common people, to keep as much of the wealth of history as could reasonably be kept. So we still have Bon practices, and many Buddhist celebrations publicly welcome the "earlier" more primal Bon, shamanic, and Pagan survivals. In fact, in the exile community, the Buddhist intellectuals have thought it necessary that Bon be allowed to thrive.

You are also keen to point out the warrior aspect, as I think you know Tibetan society used to be very militant and expansionist, but only as far as the Plateau, which Tibetans at high altitudes considered healthy. They showed not much interest in lowlands, as the older view was that these were too crowded and unhealthy. The Tibetan empire was once feared by China, the Arabs, and various Indian kingdoms. But they gave up the military projects once Buddhism gained a foothold. At least this is how Tibetans see it.

Anyway, there are probably a lot of parallel developments between modern Tibetans and Celtic cultures, not even referring to recent colonization attempts and other things brought by invaders. I wonder though if people like Irish Christians were as conscious of preserving older ways, pagan ways, as some of the Tibetan Buddhist religious institutions were with Bon. (Although not all Tibetan Buddhists agreed with this and there was much conflict in the beginning.) One parallel I see is in the Christian saints being developments of earlier pagan devotional groups towards various deities. This is like the Tibetan Buddhist assimilation of earlier Bonpo figures and deities into the Buddhist milieu.

[Sizzle Flambé]

[...] This implies that the translation of the German source material is actually a paraphrasing of a translation rather than a scholarly one. I would very much appreciate seeing what the German text that he posted here on Mysticwicks says in a direct translation by a German scholar.

[...] He has copies of the German text, and the original envelope in which it was mailed to him by Henry Thorenson’s wife, Evelyn.

[...] The book could be an Irish text of unknown provenance but until we actually have an Irish text that purports to be that, we'll have to discuss the German text as it's been presented online along with the actual published version called the Leabhar Feasa Rúnda.

Akins posted an excerpt of the German text here (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3780538&postcount=32), which was sufficient to get him busted on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Druid#.22The_Lebor_Feasa_Runda.22) -- because the "German original" is only a machine translation from the English, rather than the other way around:


English "translation"

Long ago, before the dawn of the ages, there was naught but the depths of a vast emptiness which was the goddess Domnann
German "original"

Vor langer Zeit vor der Dämmerung des Alters, gab es wertlos aber die Tiefen einer beträchtlichen Leere, die die Göttin Domnann war
actual grammatical German translation of the English

Vor langer Zeit vor der Dämmerung der Zeiten, gab es nichts als die Tiefen einer riesigen Leere, die die Göttin Domnann war
Dämmerung des Alters is a machine translation of the English expression "dawn of the ages", impossible in German. wertlos aber die Tiefen is again a machine translation of "nought but the depths", completely ungrammatical and even comic in German. I don't know what translation software would come up with beträchtlich ("considerable") for vast, but that is already a marginal concern at this point.
In fact, an English-to-German translation by the WorldLingo (http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html) website produces the identical (erroneous) results, word-for-word.

[Seren_]

Akins posted an excerpt of the German text here (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3780538&postcount=32), which was sufficient to get him busted on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Druid#.22The_Lebor_Feasa_Runda.22) -- because the "German original" is only a machine translation from the English, rather than the other way around:

In fact, an English-to-German translation by the WorldLingo (http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html) website produces the identical (erroneous) results, word-for-word.

Thanks for posting this :)

[odubhain]

Thanks for posting this :)
I had hoped that someone fluent in German would see the German pages and offer their opinions. So far, all I've seen are comments by people who are firmly in the nay-sayers camp on it. I'll ask someone I know who is actually fluent in German to take a look.

I had pressed Akins on this to get at least the original German and some traces to an actual Henry Thorenson. He provided the German "transcription" and also links to graves, images and Henry's son. I also contacted the Aliceville, Alabama, POW camp where Henry Thorenson was said to have been held during WWII. The museum director did not have him on the roles available to her but she did caution that the roles were not complete and her not knowing the name was not conclusive.

The people debunking Akins on Wikipedia seem to be from the camp that wants to shout down and belittle anyone not in their clique or who does independent research. They do this to such an extreme that to me they seem to purposely misrepresent what others have done or are doing. They've done the same to me in the past. I'm suspicious of the entries there for that reason and want to pursue the matter of Akins claims and book further.

There's another thing or two that hasn't been mentioned anywhere I can see and that is that the image offered of Henry Thorenson appears to be a composite where one person's face is superimposed on another's. I'm trying to find a high quality image so I can look at the pixel sizes on the boundaries in the image. If they are different it will be almost 100% proof that the image has been doctored. Thorenson's face seems to be an oval or ellipse that was cut and pasted on the body of another man in a picture with his wife. There also seem to be areas that were blurred to make the image editing blend in. Here's a link to the image so you can judge for yourself:

http://www.geocities.com/lebor_feasa_runda/Henry_Evelyn_Thorenson.jpg

Before I was about 60/40 in favor of hoping the work had some truth in it (or at least had been authored by Dee, Kelly or the SS). That would have given clues into their minds and own workings. Now I'm about 30/70 in consideration that it is a modern made up work.

My prior comments on the book's value in the areas where it retells Lebor Gabála, Cath Maige Tuired, Lady Gregory or Irish folklore still stand. It seems it's not as we've been told it is, as Odran told Collumcile, and that goes for Akins as well as the naysayer crowd.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Sizzle Flambé]

There's another thing or two that hasn't been mentioned anywhere I can see and that is that the image offered of Henry Thorenson appears to be a composite where one person's face is superimposed on another's. I'm trying to find a high quality image so I can look at the pixel sizes on the boundaries in the image. If they are different it will be almost 100% proof that the image has been doctored. Thorenson's face seems to be an oval or ellipse that was cut and pasted on the body of another man in a picture with his wife. There also seem to be areas that were blurred to make the image editing blend in. Here's a link to the image so you can judge for yourself:

http://www.geocities.com/lebor_feasa_runda/Henry_Evelyn_Thorenson.jpg

It doesn't look altered to me, but by all means follow through.

Note that there's really no need to alter a photo of "a man with his wife", given that both are unnamed within the photo, thus any name at all can be given them, truthfully or falsely, and how would we know the difference?

It might be an unaltered photo of (say) John and Jane Humperdinck from River City, Iowa, falsely labeled "Henry and Evelyn Thorenson" to establish a nonexistent couple's existence. Or of a real Thorenson couple, now dead, who had nothing to do with the mythical German transcript, but are now in no position to deny it.

But the "transcript" shown so far is sufficient to show it wasn't written by anyone who knew German. Rather than being the "original" from which Akins translated LFR into English, it's a computer translation of the English text into German, with all the flaws that a computer translation produces.

Notice, incidentally, that despite all the errors, this amounts to a word-for-word translation, which is not at all how Akins characterized his project. He'd said he had to paraphrase a lot, making stylistic changes, for his English "translation". Where are those paraphrases, those stylistic changes? Sentence by sentence, it's the same text. The problem is only that the German version is terrible German, unbelievable as anything written by a German in his own language, and only credible as a bad-but-literal translation of the English text into German.

[Seren_]

There's another thing or two that hasn't been mentioned anywhere I can see and that is that the image offered of Henry Thorenson appears to be a composite where one person's face is superimposed on another's. I'm trying to find a high quality image so I can look at the pixel sizes on the boundaries in the image. If they are different it will be almost 100% proof that the image has been doctored. Thorenson's face seems to be an oval or ellipse that was cut and pasted on the body of another man in a picture with his wife. There also seem to be areas that were blurred to make the image editing blend in. Here's a link to the image so you can judge for yourself:

http://www.geocities.com/lebor_feasa_runda/Henry_Evelyn_Thorenson.jpg



Looking at the picture, the man's face seems to be a little too far over to the right to be natural. Also, there definitely is blurring as you've already noted, which doesn't look good. It seems to be a composite.

Mr Akins himself commented on a miraculous and coincidental find of Mr and Mrs Thorenson's grave - and the exact same photo you've posted of them - just a day (http://steven-akins.livejournal.com/1620.html) after it appeared on findagrave.com (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=33739213) by the alleged son, Fritz...The account appears to have been created for the sole purpose of adding the information and nothing more. This appears suspect, although perhaps Thorenson's son is instrumental in duping Akins? Presumably if you're in the area, Searles, you could look this up at the relevant cemetery to do some fact checking? The relevant information is given on the findagrave website...

Looking at the difference between Thorenson in the photo with his wife, and his photo in his army uniform, he appears to be much older in the army photo (although if I remember rightly, his wife was American - he met her during or after his time as a prisoner of war in America, upon which he decided to stay? So presumably after the photo in his Nazi uniform?).

Whatever the case on that issue, looking at the army photo and comparing it with the couple, there seem to be clear differences. The eyes of the man in the army photo appear to be at a different level than those in the couple photo in comparison to the ears, and the eyebrows seem to be a different shape. This could be explained by a difference in expression, yet they seem to be pretty much the same in both...

My husband suggests that the type of uniform he's wearing is specific to a particular Nazi regiment, battalion or region he's from...At the very least it should be possible to narrow it down as to whether the uniform fits the claims that Mr Akins has made in general terms, anyway, if somebody is willing to look.

[odubhain]

I am in the Washington DC area right now working on a contract but will try to visit the cemetery in Alabama when I'm next at home. Meanwhile there are Akins graves in Maryland that may or may not support some of the other claims being made about ancestry. I may be able to visit those next weekend.

Steven Akins seems to be a good person and I hope that all these accusations against him and his work are not true. There is little to be gained by anyone to make false claims about such things in this day and age. With the Internet there will always be someone who will be able to verify or negate fabricated evidence (even though it might take quite a bit of time).

Back in the old days before photography, painters would paint portraits of people that were just the faces morphed onto bodies and hair stylings. Some o fthese look phony to my eye and out of proportion as well. I don't know what to make of it. It could be a fake or it go juct be a very lousy photograph. I have some photos of my father during WWII and they are grainy and hard to make out. The photos did not age well during the years without air conditioning (especially in the heat and the humidity of the American South).

Searles O'Dubhain

[Sizzle Flambé]

Mr Akins himself commented on a miraculous and coincidental find of Mr and Mrs Thorenson's grave - and the exact same photo you've posted of them - just a day (http://steven-akins.livejournal.com/1620.html) after it appeared on findagrave.com (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=33739213) by the alleged son, Fritz...The account appears to have been created for the sole purpose of adding the information and nothing more. This appears suspect, although perhaps Thorenson's son is instrumental in duping Akins? Presumably if you're in the area, Searles, you could look this up at the relevant cemetery to do some fact checking? The relevant information is given on the findagrave website...

Given Akins's history of digitally modifying gravestones as "evidence" (http://homepage.eircom.net/%257Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/akins1.htm), I view the "Thorenson" gravestone with the deepest suspicion. Zoom it to 400% and compare the two "O"s in THORENSON; the first notably differs from the second, and appears deformed, as though it had originally been some other letter. The given names' vertical strokes very neatly follow pixel columns, either an incredible "coincidence" of pixelization or a consequence of "engraving" them on an already pixelized surface -- the photo file.

[Seren_]

The first N is slightly longer on one side than the other, and the lettering from there onwards is situated unevenly. There's substantial blurring on both Ns and the right-hand side of the E as well :whatgives

[odubhain]

Akins posted an excerpt of the German text here (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3780538&postcount=32), which was sufficient to get him busted on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Druid#.22The_Lebor_Feasa_Runda.22) -- because the "German original" is only a machine translation from the English, rather than the other way around:

In fact, an English-to-German translation by the WorldLingo (http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html) website produces the identical (erroneous) results, word-for-word.

I took the German and the English above to Babelfish and got the same "German" translation from the English quote provided. When the "German" was retranslated to English it gave:


Long ago before the dawn, gave it age worthlessly however the depths of a considerable emptiness, which was the goddess Domnann.

Obviously, the "German" above is originally in English and a direct machine translation. If it were otherwise (German to English) it would read as the translation Babelfish just provided (which is to say that it is not originally German at all and presents a poorly stated English translation - a result that often occurs with machine translations).

I'm very disappointed that such things apparently have happened in an unsuccessful attempt to establish a document trail for Leabhar Feasa Rúnda. At this point, credibility for the work is destroyed.

That's too bad, as some of the stories and tales within the book seem to be based on actual sources like Lebor Gabála. A decent book could have been produced identifying those sources (where they were followed) and clearly identifying the author's own UPG, considerations and opinions where it goes into unreferenced histories and tales. Visions, imaginings, imbas and UPG have their place in seeking answers but should be verified, identified and supported by what can also be proven through research, academic work and the visions of others with the Sight. This has not occured here with LFR and that saddens me for those who seek as well as those who have erred in their efforts.

I do not think that the furor and caustic put-downs that occurred immediately on the appearance of LFR were warranted or just. IMO a simple and factual presentation of the evidence for and against the veracity of the book and its work should have occurred rather than the extreme condemnations that I saw. Few involved in this affair have comported themselves in a thoughtful and objective manner (though some have done that). Keeping an open and honest mind about new information and works goes a lot further toward verifying or disproving its worth.

The truth will eventually come out and the truth is that the 'German source' presented to us to support LBR as a translation from Old Irish to German - to English is originally written in English. The claim that it is orginally German or a German from Old Irish translation undercuts other claims that the book's sources are authentic.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

Searles I respect you doing the mia culpa thing, I should probably do it more myself. I'd still argue for the value of the book outside a modernist view of religion though cos (post)modernism is new and its not a friend to things that predate modernism, like religion.


A decent book could have been produced identifying those sources (where they were followed) and clearly identifying the author's own UPG, considerations and opinions where it goes into unreferenced histories and tales

Fair enough its nice to know someone hasn’t pulled and beliefs out of thin air, but with the level of knowledge Steven Atkins shows in LFR its clear he isn’t basing his beliefs on nothing and that he has a grounding in his subject. Its also not an overly detailed book and doesn’t go deep into any concepts or beliefs and IMO those things negate the need for a recommended reading list along the lines of the ones given by more favoured authors like Alexei Kondratiev or Peter Berresford Ellis.

Say LFR was referenced to the standard of an academic publication, looking at the history of Druidry (which by extension could be taken as a part of the history of NeoPaganism in general) putting pen to paper and using transient academic opinion to support intransient religious belief can be a game of Russian roulette. Searles you might be aware of what happened to British Druidry in the 20th century when the trends changed in the academic disciplines that British Druids were using to support their beliefs in the media. Geology and archaeology had supported Druidry's beliefs about its relationship with the sacred sites in Britain *but* they didn’t share those beliefs. When the carbon dating index was reviewed in the 70s all the academic theory that British Druidry used to support itself changed. It didn’t damage the disciplines at all, there’s a reason nothing is set in stone even in geology but it left the intransient religious beliefs of Druidry discredited. British Druidry hasn’t regained its status since. From that Id be inclined to think that academic sources cant support religious belief in the long term and the short term gain in popularity isn’t worth the price in the end.

I would say that’s the reason authors like Alexei Kondratiev give reading lists instead of the Detailed referencing you’ll find in academic publications - they are trying to avoid the pitfalls that hurt British Druidry in the 20th century while all and sundry cry out for the hobbling post. IMO people shouting out for the 'proof' of belief today over modern forms of media like the internet are really no more valuable as students then the 20th century journalists that hounded British Druidry after the 70s. You’re either going to get it or you’re not, and while times effect on a man might do the trick no amount of 'proof' will open that closed door. LFR doesnt have the proof, but it has knowlege and thats whats valuable IMO.

[skilly-nilly]

Looking at the difference between Thorenson in the photo with his wife, and his photo in his army uniform, he appears to be much older in the army photo (although if I remember rightly, his wife was American - he met her during or after his time as a prisoner of war in America, upon which he decided to stay? So presumably after the photo in his Nazi uniform?).

Can you post the point to the army photo?

[Seren_]

Can you post the point to the army photo?

This should take you directly to it:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=33739213&PIpi=15559442

[skilly-nilly]

I asked my husband (who has an interest) about the war photo.

The man photographed is an Infantry Major, and very highly decorated. He has a gold would badge (the outside medal on his left pocket) which was given for 5 or more wounds. The Infantry badge (the one next to it) denoted active service. He has a campaign award (just visible on his left sleeve) that indicates he was in the front lines of a big campaign. The Knight's Cross and the Iron Cross were important awards-- my husband doesn't think it's likely that anyone would be awarded all those as early in the war as 1939, and also thinks that none of them would have been awarded to a non-fighting translator.

His shoulder boards, collar flashes, and the V shape on his cap appear to be white, the colour for Infantry and not the red-brown colour of propaganda. As well, when I was looking back at the early discussions of the documentation provided by Akins he wrote:
"Mr. Thorenson, an expert on linguistics, was among a team of scholars assigned by the Ahnenerbe Forschungs-und Lehrgemeinschaft to translate this ancient Gaelic text into German in the late 1930’s, by orders from Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler."

My husband asks-- why would someone in 'Instruction' (Lehrgemeinschaft) have all those combat medals and what would Himmler (head of the SS) want with an Infantry-man?

So, no, he doesn't think that could be a photograph of someone employed behind the lines as "an expert on linguistics... among a team of scholars"