Celtic Reconstructionism and the Land

[Nuadu]

Hi there,

I was wondering how a CR views the the land.
Ireland specifically but also the land beneath their feet in America. The reasons for the question is that one of the differences I have noticed between Irish pagans and American Pagans is the lack of interest in Irish Cultural sites and topography in general.

That is not a criticism it is understandable because American Pagans are physically distant from Ireland and are for the most part unwelcome at native American cultural sites.

Another contributing factor I would imagine is living in a capitalist culture. In Europe adopting Capitalism involved a move away from the romantic cultural view of the landscape and a move towards viewing the landscape as commericial units of land. I would imagine that would lessen the link someone feels towards the land.

Ireland is a heavily romantacised landscape and our ties to it cannot be emphasised enough. Even more so for a pagan when every piece of topography and toponomy has a spiritally significant history that can teach you more about the spiritual life in the area. Visiting a cultural site as a pagan gives you a sense of stepping into otherworld time. The time spanning between you and the people that have been at the site over millenia seems to vanish. Its a life changing experiance and most Pagans here begin by visiting their local liminal places and then the cultural sites.

Do CR's have a similar view to their local landscape or Ireland?

[banondraig]

A vast number of Americans have grown up in suburban subdivisions (roughly equivalent to housing estates) which are some of the most chopped-up and reformed home and land products available. So they were accustomed to having more-or-less dead land.

Having visited Ireland on more than one occasion I will venture to say that the land energy seems to be much more intact there, barring Dublin airport.

[odubhain]

Hi there,

I was wondering how a CR views the the land.
Ireland specifically but also the land beneath their feet in America. The reasons for the question is that one of the differences I have noticed between Irish pagans and American Pagans is the lack of interest in Irish Cultural sites and topography in general.

That is not a criticism it is understandable because American Pagans are physically distant from Ireland and are for the most part unwelcome at native American cultural sites.


I'm working on a trip to the homelands of the O'Dubhains so I can sleep and dream in the passage mounds there. I suspect it will involve a lot of bureaucratic paperwork to achieve my rights in this matter. I see this as one of the few ways open to connect to the land and the spirits there aside from making votive offerings. From what I've seen, bonfires aren't permitted in Ireland without a similar amount of paperwork.



Another contributing factor I would imagine is living in a capitalist culture. In Europe adopting Capitalism involved a move away from the romantic cultural view of the landscape and a move towards viewing the landscape as commercial units of land. I would imagine that would lessen the link someone feels towards the land.

I grew up in a small town next to my grandparents home and about 5 miles from the home of my great-grandfather. All these people were farmers so I got a health taste, touch, smell and feel for the land, as well as a healthy respect for it from them.

Living in an artificial world that is run by money nowadays certainly takes the magic out of life. Beware the Celtic Tiger. It prowls the land of Ireland and fate is seemingly an echo of American prosperity?


Ireland is a heavily romanticised landscape and our ties to it cannot be emphasised enough. Even more so for a pagan when every piece of topography and toponomy has a spiritally significant history that can teach you more about the spiritual life in the area. Visiting a cultural site as a pagan gives you a sense of stepping into otherworld time. The time spanning between you and the people that have been at the site over millenia seems to vanish. Its a life changing experiance and most Pagans here begin by visiting their local liminal places and then the cultural sites.

A friend of mine named Kevin O'Hara once took a donkey cart all around Ireland in a year's time and wrote a book about it called Last of the Donkey Pilgrims. That world has faded a bit now but what Kevin relates of it lives on still.


Do CR's have a similar view to their local landscape or Ireland?

Some do. I've taught my students to discover the spirit of their area by walking it. I've also had them research the place name stories for where they live to discover why the names are as they are and what they mean. In the South, the rivers usually have a Native American name which can help in this task. Being alone with the land and the rivers to make offerings and share spirits is highly recommended and the first thing I do when I come into a new area. The Norse did much the same thing when they came into Iceland as I'm certain the Sons of Mil did when they came into Ireland (as the story relates).

Not all CR types have an open an abiding spirit however so each has a different way of going about the same things or not at all. Sometimes I think that the CR movement gets too wrapped up in itself and starts behaving like a political party instead. Be that as it may, I know many a person who rises above such things and holds to tradition in spite of group think and social pressures.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Seren_]

There is a large interest in Irish and other Celtic cultural sites and monuments among American CRs, especially in their preservation. I happen to know a few who are heavily involved in bringing awareness to Irish heritage sites and who contribute to cultural causes through money, resources, and promotion.

I agree, in particular the controversy over the motorway being built through the Tara-Skryne valley is a case in point.

There's an article that was supposed to be about that, but I think it turned into a more CR oriented article than was intended, if I remember it right, though it does deal with land issues. If you're interested, Nuadu, it's number two at the following link (I can't link to it directly):

http://www.coveringreligion.org/2008/index.html

There's also KILLYOUANDEATYOU (http://paganachd.com/articles/killyouandeatyou.html), which focuses more on how the land is interacted with, outside of Celtic countries. Not sure if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, though.


CRs work to familiarize themselves with their surrounding lands and environment, and local lore (I know of some who are working on their own local dindsenchas). Many also honor a goddess whom they believe is an embodiment or personification of the land they inhabit; Pithlachascotee is the goddess of the land I live on, she is named after a major river that runs through it. A couple times a month, I'll go to her riverside and pay her my respects with a few offerings.

I do the same. I live by the Firth of Clyde, just up along from where it becomes sea rather than river. I take offerings to Clota, who may or may not have been the goddess of the river who was venerated by the local Britons. I've not yet encountered much local lore on the immediate landscape, probably because compared to some places like the Highlands and Islands proper, we're much more urban so it's not remembered as much.

But especially in terms of the Cailleach, say, the land plays a huge part in our understanding of her and our understanding of the landscape. It seems a lot of CR folk are also interested in the places of their ancestors in Ireland or wherever they're interested in - either in terms of their own ancestors or the gods they have a particular relationship with. Maybe this is more of a personal interest, so it's not spoken of so openly.


In general, CRs work to build an intimate relationship with their land, its spirits and goddess, and view it with a sacred regard, though our relationships are probably expressed differently then they would be in Ireland considering the difference in bioregions, the local lore, and native spirits.

I've read that alcohol is generally poured into fire rather than on the ground in the US, so as not to offend the local spirits. Alcohol is taboo in First Nations belief, right? Here I don't have that problem, though in terms of modern offerings I don't leave out anything that contains ingredients that might make animals sick. I don't leave alcohol in water, because it's bad for the fishes.

[Nuadu]

I agree, in particular the controversy over the motorway being built through the Tara-Skryne valley is a case in point.


As a quick aside (Ive only 10 mins left on the interwebs but Il ladress the rest later) I was on the council for that particular organisation and while there was some small involvment at a late stage NONE OF IT was significant financially.

While my heartfelt gratitude goes out to the people that did help it was only a minority of individuals and as far as I am aware it was a minority of individuals from ONLY 1 GROUP. Anyone aside from those actually involved now taking credit for their involvement should be ashamed of themselves.

On a very personal aside I personally begged and bartered with major groups to even contribute to awareness in their own country and the council of one large group in particular were very dismissive and said they would not be involved in Irish Politics. While Reconstructionalists in general should not be painted with a single brush (and I do not) CR as a movement deserves no pat on the back for involvement the Tara Skryne legal case.

[Seren_]

Did I say they did? I was simply using it as an example of how recons are aware of the importance of the sacred landscape of Ireland...

The involvement I was referring to was mainly in the form of calls to support the protest group that were camped out near the site, either by joining in the protest in person, or sending goods or whatever to the protesters. There were calls to write to the government as well and probably more things that I don't remember...How many did, I don't know. Obviously whatever support was given by individuals hasn't been very effective so far, it seems to be a losing battle, but (to reiterate) I was simply giving an example in response to your original post.

[Nuadu]

Im sorry if I flew off the handle in the previous post I guess Tara is a raw nerve. While I believe that CR is admirable and am in awe of the amount of work involved in being a reconstructionalist - CR its not Irish and Tara is a VERY Irish issue.

Still I reserve the right to protest when serious Irish cultural issues are used to justify and support CR something that is not related to, concerned with the wellbeing of or a product of Irish culture. Its not very different then some western shaman type justifying his practices by saying he supports native american rights. CR is better then that and I dont think they should lower themselves and attract that comparason by heralding their involvement in Irish Cultural Issues.

[Nuadu]

A vast number of Americans have grown up in suburban subdivisions (roughly equivalent to housing estates) which are some of the most chopped-up and reformed home and land products available. So they were accustomed to having more-or-less dead land.

Having visited Ireland on more than one occasion I will venture to say that the land energy seems to be much more intact there, barring Dublin airport.

Thanks for replying banondraig.

That is interesting that you would put it in terms of energy in the land. Did you visit Newgrange while you were here?

Since the Newgrange was rennovated so hugely the energy there is almost imperceptable (sp?) maybe the energy from the land has something to do with how intact the natural landscape is...

Its interesting that you describe parts of the states as dead land and compare it to a more living landscape in Ireland. Do you feel more connected to the land here then the land you live on more often?

[Nuadu]

There is a large interest in Irish and other Celtic cultural sites and monuments among American CRs, especially in their preservation. I happen to know a few who are heavily involved in bringing awareness to Irish heritage sites and who contribute to cultural causes through money, resources, and promotion.

CRs work to familiarize themselves with their surrounding lands and environment, and local lore (I know of some who are working on their own local dindsenchas). Many also honor a goddess whom they believe is an embodiment or personification of the land they inhabit; Pithlachascotee is the goddess of the land I live on, she is named after a major river that runs through it. A couple times a month, I'll go to her riverside and pay her my respects with a few offerings.

In general, CRs work to build an intimate relationship with their land, its spirits and goddess, and view it with a sacred regard, though our relationships are probably expressed differently then they would be in Ireland considering the difference in bioregions, the local lore, and native spirits.

Thanks for replying Tomas,

I did not know that reconstructionalists worked with their local deities... to be honest I always wondered at the fact that Reconstructionalists are interested in deities from lands that they are geographically and culturally distant to them and I have always questioned why they put in all the work when they must be more intimately connected to the land and gods around them.

I just assumed it was because non-natives were barred from the cultural sites and your involvement in the native religion was unwelcome. Maybe that the native gods made you unwelcome aswell as the native people. Is that the case?

[Nuadu]

I'm working on a trip to the homelands of the O'Dubhains so I can sleep and dream in the passage mounds there. I suspect it will involve a lot of bureaucratic paperwork to achieve my rights in this matter. I see this as one of the few ways open to connect to the land and the spirits there aside from making votive offerings. From what I've seen, bonfires aren't permitted in Ireland without a similar amount of paperwork.

That sounds great Searles thanks for replying!

Is the land on a designated wildlife preserve or a finicky farmers land?

If not you can do what you like where you like aslong as you leave the place tidy and do not make a big deal of notifying people you are going to be there. Though you are spot on with the fires they scar the ground so you would have to find a way around that. DruidSchool.com use bonfires and they have a tripod thing they build their fires in. Maybe they can tell you more?


I grew up in a small town next to my grandparents home and about 5 miles from the home of my great-grandfather. All these people were farmers so I got a health taste, touch, smell and feel for the land, as well as a healthy respect for it from them.

Living in an artificial world that is run by money nowadays certainly takes the magic out of life. Beware the Celtic Tiger. It prowls the land of Ireland and fate is seemingly an echo of American prosperity?

Ah the celtic tiger is belly up now so no worries there!
There was a dramatic shift towards greed and a move away from traditional life even visible in Dublin over the last 20 years. Did you find the same thing in America? I have always looked at America and assumed its always been how it is now... basically a large corporate entity where cultures value is weighed against profits.


Some do. I've taught my students to discover the spirit of their area by walking it. I've also had them research the place name stories for where they live to discover why the names are as they are and what they mean. In the South, the rivers usually have a Native American name which can help in this task. Being alone with the land and the rivers to make offerings and share spirits is highly recommended and the first thing I do when I come into a new area. The Norse did much the same thing when they came into Iceland as I'm certain the Sons of Mil did when they came into Ireland (as the story relates).

That is astonishing, as I told Tomas above I always assumed Americans had very little concious connection to their land because of the current and historical politics. If that solid connection is there, why is there an emphasis on other spiritualities like Druidry, CR etc.. among pagans?

I read the lakota declaration of war on exploiters of their culture is that hostility the reason other paganism is popular? If I was there I would be upset at being unwelcome

[Nuadu]

I do the same. I live by the Firth of Clyde, just up along from where it becomes sea rather than river. I take offerings to Clota, who may or may not have been the goddess of the river who was venerated by the local Britons. I've not yet encountered much local lore on the immediate landscape, probably because compared to some places like the Highlands and Islands proper, we're much more urban so it's not remembered as much.

But especially in terms of the Cailleach, say, the land plays a huge part in our understanding of her and our understanding of the landscape. It seems a lot of CR folk are also interested in the places of their ancestors in Ireland or wherever they're interested in - either in terms of their own ancestors or the gods they have a particular relationship with. Maybe this is more of a personal interest, so it's not spoken of so openly.

Thanks for replying Seren. Im sorry I lost the head. :hairred:

The Ancestry thing among CR is an interesting topic too.
Its one of the area's where American Culture and Irish Culture conflict. I can understand why it is played down. I know a chinese guy who knows more Traditional songs then me and he has no ancestry here but he is certainly Irish.

[skilly-nilly]

I think when one is talking about any religion (including C-R) it has to be acknowledged that a religion can't be reduced to a sound-bite without losing meaning.

That is, you can't say, 'C-R is about Blah' without leaving bits out. There's more than one issue going on:

-Local Land Spirits
Without any doubt, what the people who lived here before Europeans came believed is very important. But I believe that the Spirits of the Land lived here when there were no people at all. How First Peoples' interaction was belongs to them; we can respectfully study it but it is not 'our' culture. And First Peoples can limit or bar admission as they see fit.
On the other hand, the Spirits themselves are a different matter. We can contact Them ourselves, using the cultural context that works best for us and They may respond if They wish to. Our perceptual reality will then differ vastly from previous perceptions/ encounters/ lore.
On the gripping hand, the Spirits who interacted with people before obviously are inclined to interact with people, so They will likely respond to respect and honest feeling even if the template used is different than it was in the past.

-The TDD
If, as I believe, the Gods live in the Timeless Land then They always knew that there would eventually be Irish Descendants everywhere. So They would have arranged to be able to contact those people if those people were honouring Them.

-Holy Places
Are just full of teh holy, not the possessions of the people who happen to live by them. It's nice for you that there are holy places in your country that are recognized by your religion, satisfying, completing.... but not exclusive. The Holy Places in your country can be acknowledged and loved by people who don't live there. I love the Holy Places of my religion (Newgrange is one, but my yard is another) without feeling either possessive or excluded.

[Nuadu]

Thanks for replying Skilly Nilly. I never get tired of your name :D

When you say that you can view the land and contact land spirits in your own cultural context dont you think that is a little disrespectfull to the natives of that land because it disregards their traditions?

I would think that their ways should be respected and applied considering it is their land I would be occupying and then only by virtue of columbasses faulty map and a 17th century morality that allowed the massacre of a for the most part stone age people?


-The TDD
If, as I believe, the Gods live in the Timeless Land then They always knew that there would eventually be Irish Descendants everywhere. So They would have arranged to be able to contact those people if those people were honouring Them.

I dont share your concept of deity but I know that traditionally the beanside only mourns for the O and the Mac. People of culture rather then people of a certain bloodline. I am not denying people can meet the gods of their ancestry but I would say they petition those gods for a meeting by honouring and absorbing the culture they value. That doesnt mean it applies to the land spirits in America but thats where my opinion that trad ways should be honoured over a new cultures would be rooted.



Holy Places
Are just full of teh holy, not the possessions of the people who happen to live by them. It's nice for you that there are holy places in your country that are recognized by your religion, satisfying, completing.... but not exclusive. The Holy Places in your country can be acknowledged and loved by people who don't live there. I love the Holy Places of my religion (Newgrange is one, but my yard is another) without feeling either possessive or excluded.

I am exceptionally possessive of the land around me. Thats why I help preserve the cultural sites. Im sorry if that offends you. Im sorry you werent born here in fact Im sorry everyone isnt Irish but youre not. Irish people own Ireland and thats how it is. If you want to own Ireland you have to move to Ireland and throw away all other cultures to be a part of Irish culture.

Even if you dont want to move you are free to enjoy the land, you and anyone else who wants to can study it and feel a kinship to it. I wouldnt stop anyone from doing something I take great joy in but as an Irish person my people fought 800 years so I can say it is my land. So I dont see why I should be shy to say it.

Thats a bit zealous so I can only offer this explanation and hope that you forgive my enthusiasm. I own some of the land because its legally owned by my family, I own some of it because my family earned the right to the land by occupying it and defending it for centuries from other Irish people aswell as foreigners and some of it because it has been the spiritual centre of my ancestors for 1000s of years who have lived and died there.

I know places intimately associated with my family where within living memory members of my family died fighting to protect that land from foreign opression. The soil I stand on at those cultural sites welcomed the dead members of my family for generations. There the marrow of my bones is literally made of the same stuff as the soil beneath me. Without being too poetic I am of the land of Ireland. It has sustained my family for as long as we have existed we have a responsibility to it we belong to it as much as it belongs to us.

Im sure every native American feels the same way about their land. If nothing else I hope you could consider how zealous I am and keep that in mind in relation to the people you know in America who still havent recovered their land.

[Seren_]

I think you're labouring under a few misapprehensions here, Nuadu, the fact that you think all CRs are American and claiming to be Irish being the main one.

'Your people' may have been fighting for your country for 800 years, but the reason a lot of people in America are so keen on Ireland is because some of their ancestors, at least, came from there. A large amount of those ancestors left Ireland as a direct result of those struggles, too.

When those immigrants arrived in the US, do you think they immediately left all their beliefs and customs behind? Do you think they met the natives and thought, well, hey, seeing as we're here we should do what they do! Or do you think they saw their new environment and interpreted it according to their own cultural understandings?

A lot of that was lost over time, as America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and anywhere else the Irish and the Scots ended up changed and evolved and developed their own identities. But some people, some families retained a lot of their customs and passed them on. They still saw the Good Folk in the hills, they sang the songs, they named their environment, the hills, the mountains and so on, in their own language, often after the places they'd come from. They weren't Irish anymore, but some things survived. Some communities were more conservative than others. Do you think they're wrong to have done that? You seem to be arguing that they should have joined a Native American tribe instead.

If you're not, then why can't those people in search of a spiritual path that's true for them look to their ancestors and their ancestor's country of origin and seek to revive those practices in a modern context that speaks to their situation? And why is it such a stretch for someone who doesn't have any ancestry to feel a spiritual connection? The gods call to whom they may, surely?

[skilly-nilly]

Thanks for replying Skilly Nilly. I never get tired of your name :D.
Thanks; it's because I'm a skilly-person but not entirely by my own choice.

I re-posted my post and your responses because it seemed almost as if you weren't responding to what I'd said. I try to be careful to say exactly what I mean.


There's more than one issue going on:.
What I meant was that there are 3 distinctly separate issues.



-Local Land Spirits-
Without any doubt, what the people who lived here before Europeans came believed is very important. But I believe that the Spirits of the Land lived here when there were no people at all. How First Peoples' interaction was belongs to them; we can respectfully study it but it is not 'our' culture. And First Peoples can limit or bar admission as they see fit.
...


When you say that you can view the land and contact land spirits in your own cultural context dont you think that is a little disrespectfull to the natives of that land because it disregards their traditions?

I would think that their ways should be respected and applied considering it is their land I would be occupying and then only by virtue of columbasses faulty map and a 17th century morality that allowed the massacre of a for the most part stone age people?.

What I said was that the Spirits of the Land pre-date all people.

Before the First Peoples came over the Alaskan Land Bridge, there were Spirits in the Land. The traditions by which the First Peoples contacted the Spirits are their traditions, not the traditions of the Land Spirits. I think it would be disrespectful to co-opt those traditions without being a member of that culture, which I am not.

That doesn't mean I can't talk to the Land-- I use the traditions that I am comfortable with; if the land accepts being spoken to by that means, Ze will answer.

I disagree when you say "considering it is their land"; I don't consider that it is their land. I think the Land belongs to Hirself, and we're just transients. The Land Spirits were unimaginably old even before people-- older than mountains.


-The TDD
If, as I believe, the Gods live in the Timeless Land then They always knew that there would eventually be Irish Descendants everywhere. So They would have arranged to be able to contact those people if those people were honouring Them..


I dont share your concept of deity but I know that traditionally the beanside only mourns for the O and the Mac. People of culture rather then people of a certain bloodline. I am not denying people can meet the gods of their ancestry but I would say they petition those gods for a meeting by honouring and absorbing the culture they value. That doesnt mean it applies to the land spirits in America but thats where my opinion that trad ways should be honoured over a new cultures would be rooted..

I didn't follow your response at-tall.

When I read The Banshee: The Irish Death Messenger by Patricia Lysaght, she seemed to say that in many cases Banshees keened for particular families or the heads of particular families.

In any case I wouldn't quite equate the Banshee and the TDD, myself.

It's a small point, but Canadians don't generally identify themselves as being "in America". 'In North America' works but barely; generally we identify ourselves as 'Canadian'.


-Holy Places
Are just full of teh holy, not the possessions of the people who happen to live by them. It's nice for you that there are holy places in your country that are recognized by your religion, satisfying, completing.... but not exclusive. The Holy Places in your country can be acknowledged and loved by people who don't live there. I love the Holy Places of my religion (Newgrange is one, but my yard is another) without feeling either possessive or excluded.



I am exceptionally possessive of the land around me. Thats why I help preserve the cultural sites. Im sorry if that offends you. Im sorry you werent born here in fact Im sorry everyone isnt Irish but youre not. Irish people own Ireland and thats how it is. If you want to own Ireland you have to move to Ireland and throw away all other cultures to be a part of Irish culture.

Even if you dont want to move you are free to enjoy the land, you and anyone else who wants to can study it and feel a kinship to it. I wouldnt stop anyone from doing something I take great joy in but as an Irish person my people fought 800 years so I can say it is my land. So I dont see why I should be shy to say it.

Thats a bit zealous so I can only offer this explanation and hope that you forgive my enthusiasm. I own some of the land because its legally owned by my family, I own some of it because my family earned the right to the land by occupying it and defending it for centuries from other Irish people aswell as foreigners and some of it because it has been the spiritual centre of my ancestors for 1000s of years who have lived and died there.

I know places intimately associated with my family where within living memory members of my family died fighting to protect that land from foreign opression. The soil I stand on at those cultural sites welcomed the dead members of my family for generations. There the marrow of my bones is literally made of the same stuff as the soil beneath me. Without being too poetic I am of the land of Ireland. It has sustained my family for as long as we have existed we have a responsibility to it we belong to it as much as it belongs to us.

Im sure every native American feels the same way about their land. If nothing else I hope you could consider how zealous I am and keep that in mind in relation to the people you know in America who still havent recovered their land.

There's a lot of points in your response!
"Irish people own Ireland and thats how it is."
The Irish people govern most of Ireland, but Ireland owns Herself. The Goddess of Sovereignty allows rulers to govern. 800 years is a long time but again, the Land Spirits came before people; before the Firbolg, the Fomorians, the sons of Mil, and your ancestors.

"I own some of the land because its legally owned by my family"
You support a government which has a vested interest in your ownership of your land. As well, your family and ancestors made great sacrifice so that most of Ireland would be a republic. These are important things and should be honoured.

But I believe that Holy Places belong to the whole world. It is Right Action for you to 'help preserve the cultural sites", but that doesn't make them yours, just still in existence for all the world to marvel at and visit. I think it is the responsibility of all the world to preserve Holy Places.

"Im sure every native American feels the same way about their land."
From what I have read, aboriginal North Americans prefer to identify as a member of the tribe they are a part of. If they are speaking generally, I have read several sources that firmly state they use 'Indian'.

From what I know, many tribes did not perceive themselves as 'owning' land. The Land is primordial; you could almost say that Ze owns us.

You will stay,
We will pass.
You are Land,
We are grass.

[odubhain]

That sounds great Searles thanks for replying!

Is the land on a designated wildlife preserve or a finicky farmers land?

If not you can do what you like where you like aslong as you leave the place tidy and do not make a big deal of notifying people you are going to be there. Though you are spot on with the fires they scar the ground so you would have to find a way around that. DruidSchool.com use bonfires and they have a tripod thing they build their fires in. Maybe they can tell you more?

The land is the passage mound at Knowth and the Hill of Slane. That was where my family lived before there was a Pale.

I'll check to see if there's any way to get inside the mound at Knowth. I may have to do some politicking. The dispute between Con Connors and Michael McGrath has cooled my opinion of DruidSchool. They can't tolerate one another and it makes life miserable for anyone around them.


Ah the celtic tiger is belly up now so no worries there!
There was a dramatic shift towards greed and a move away from traditional life even visible in Dublin over the last 20 years. Did you find the same thing in America? I have always looked at America and assumed its always been how it is now... basically a large corporate entity where cultures value is weighed against profits.

I've seen America change from being almost like Ireland to the entity you describe above all in the space of 60 years. Life has become increasingly artificial. I shouldn't be surprised however as just this afternoon I was looking at plans and images for life in space craft, on the Moon and even Mars. I've done some work on the International Space Station and now I'm working on the systems that will supply it when the Space Shuttle will be retired.


That is astonishing, as I told Tomas above I always assumed Americans had very little conscious connection to their land because of the current and historical politics. If that solid connection is there, why is there an emphasis on other spiritualities like Druidry, CR etc.. among pagans?

My father was born on a farm in the house there. The doctor came out for the delivery. When I was a child, the ice man delivered ice for the ice box and the cane man came by with sugar cane and cane juice. Children of 5 or 6 could walk downtown unattended but never unwatched. Everyone new how they were related to everyone else and generally watched out for one another. The biggest excitement of my childhood was seeing a Navy blimp fly over. It looked like a UFO. :-)

I don't think there is a solid connection any longer but there are connections from place to place and person to person. My family is lucky because we can locate where our ancestors have lived for the past 280 years or so over here. Some follow the Druid way because it is a path that searches for truth and acts in stewardship for the land (rather than being in dominion over it). My wife has a healthy respect for the land and animals as her father was a hunter and she also studied shamanism through a Native American path.

In Alabama where I live when not working on contracts, there are mounds that were built by the Native Americans as ceremonial locations. Some of these involve stone formations. These all seem very familiar to me. When the Scots and the Irish got here, they intermarried with the Native Americans and rose to be chiefs in their tribes.


I read the lakota declaration of war on exploiters of their culture is that hostility the reason other paganism is popular? If I was there I would be upset at being unwelcome

Some folks think that embracing a tribal way here is appropriation, but that's not absolutely true. I know a Japanese gentleman from Hiroshima who was made a member of the Hopi tribe so he and his wife could adopt three of their orphans. One of my best friends is a Druid of Irish and Oneida ancestry. She embodies the best of both cultures.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Faol-chù]

When you say that you can view the land and contact land spirits in your own cultural context dont you think that is a little disrespectfull to the natives of that land because it disregards their traditions?

Just a thought...

IF the above is to be considered "disrespectful", a lot of people, including the first Gaelic-speakers in Ireland, have been disrespectful for a long time.
Historically, "Celts", in general, have been going places and interpreting the landscape, as well as other natural aspects from their own perspective for a few thousand years now. (Not saying that anyone is actually CLAIMING to be "Celts"...although they might be...just using it as an analogy.)

Truly, even using your own analogy about the Clare man vs. the Dublin man, the only way ANYONE can interpret ANYTHING is truly according to their own experience, whatever that may be....

(Good to talk to you, Nuadu!)

[Nuadu]

I'm beginning to notice that you actually know very little about CR. You are assuming and misrepresenting a lot of things due to this lack in understanding, and it is making dialogue here a bit tense.

I would love to learn more. That is why I started the topic in the CR section. As for the tension I have to take a step back from responsibility there. CRs seem extremely interesting in argueing judging by the LFR threads. Like bill cosby said "Have a coke and a smile", "eat the jello pudding".


I'm not understanding the correspondence between a person who carelessly appropriates from a culture, history, and religion that is not theirs, to someone who is sincerely and actively working to embrace the the culture, history, and religion of his/ her people. CRs are primarily people of Celtic descent, many of us growing up in Irish-American, Scottish-American, Welsh-American, etc. households where cultural tradition and identity remained a very important and living aspect of everyday life.

I am not saying you cant be Irish but growing up in another culture with separate values even if at home you maintain some traditions does not mean you are a member of the irish culture. Come and work here for a year you will see how different the two are even in Irish cities.



Many of us have not lost that sense of history and culture, we are only motivated to further strengthen the solidarity between us and ours ancestors, heritage, history, gods, and homeland. Is there any surprise that many of us are concerned about affairs over seas? Why shouldn't we? It's a sad day when an Irish-American, earnestly concerned about his/ her place of origin, is considered of "lower stock" simply because of an -American attachment.

Tomas I understand your perspective but from the Irish perspective youre a foreigner. To change that you have to move here and adopt our culture over everything you grew up with. It must be harsh from your perspective but our cultures differ completely on some things would you prefer lies?

You are welcome here and welcome to study and take pleasure in our trads. Why live lies.

[Nuadu]

I think you're labouring under a few misapprehensions here, Nuadu, the fact that you think all CRs are American and claiming to be Irish being the main one.

Tomas above said most CRs are American Diaspora with a strong sense of culture Seren. What more can I say then that...


They weren't Irish anymore, but some things survived. Some communities were more conservative than others. Do you think they're wrong to have done that? You seem to be arguing that they should have joined a Native American tribe instead.

Seren I am not going to argue, it upsets me and I dont want to spend my freetime being upset. I think as pagans we should all have a deep relationship with the land and the deities associated with the land. Why go looking for Nuadu when you have met the God around the corner walking your dog and he is waiting for you?


If you're not, then why can't those people in search of a spiritual path that's true for them look to their ancestors and their ancestor's country of origin and seek to revive those practices in a modern context that speaks to their situation?

I never said they couldnt Seren it just puzzles me that they do because its something alot of people seem to do but its not something I would consider doing. Hence the question in the CR forum where I knew I would meet americans.



And why is it such a stretch for someone who doesn't have any ancestry to feel a spiritual connection? The gods call to whom they may, surely?

Debating something as nebulous as a concept of deity is pointless in an argument. I have my concept and you have yours the end. As for ancestry. Ancestry means nothing if you are not a part of the culture. Do humans come with a list of ingredients on their back that say they are 1\4 one thing and 3\4 polyester? That to me is a very nazish tendancy. Culture is all that should matter.

Im not arguing the point anymore. it just makes me unhappy that I cant ask a question even to someone that lives not a 200 miles from me much less 10,000 miles.

[Nuadu]

What I said was that the Spirits of the Land pre-date all people.

That is fair enough but from my perspective the native concept of deity is created through millennia spent interacting with the land and deities unique to that area. I have a hard time believing that the deities had no say in how things are done and that the native way could be correctly usurped by something new from another land. It could be the nationalism in me.



That doesn't mean I can't talk to the Land-- I use the traditions that I am comfortable with; if the land accepts being spoken to by that means, Ze will answer.

Thats wonderfull and actually does warm my heart because my visits there left me with the feeling the land was fractured and the deities injured and angry, it is something totally new to me. What I dont understand is why anyone who can connect to their land that meaningfully would bother denying themselves that natural thing and go looking for other deities. It must be a cultural thing I am getting alot of flack for asking the question.


I disagree when you say "considering it is their land"; I don't consider that it is their land. I think the Land belongs to Hirself, and we're just transients. The Land Spirits were unimaginably old even before people-- older than mountains.

There again as a nationalist I can only disagree in the strongest terms possible. The land was taken from the native people by force they were starved and slaughtered by some of the same military personell that starved and slaughtered Irish people.






I didn't follow your response at-tall.

When I read The Banshee: The Irish Death Messenger by Patricia Lysaght, she seemed to say that in many cases Banshees keened for particular families or the heads of particular families.

That is very true, in early ireland the banshee was only attached to the most aristocratic of families through their kings symbollic relationship with that deity. Over time through intermarriage everyone could say they were related to one great king or another and that changed. The O'Neill genetics for example are as prevelant in Ireland as Kengis khans genetics are in china. The banshee in later tradition only keens for those members of the family that are culturally Irish. Likewise its said that the fairies only speak in Irish and anyone that is not fluent only percieves their talk as static noise or babble.

If you have the time and youre interested I recommend you read some of eddie lennihans books on folklore. They touch on that subject.


It's a small point, but Canadians don't generally identify themselves as being "in America". 'In North America' works but barely; generally we identify ourselves as 'Canadian'.

I lived in north america for a while and barring more rural places I found all big cities on both sides of the boarder to be culturally identical but I will stop using the phrase I didnt know it was insulting to canadians.



There's a lot of points in your response!
"Irish people own Ireland and thats how it is."
The Irish people govern most of Ireland, but Ireland owns Herself. The Goddess of Sovereignty allows rulers to govern. 800 years is a long time but again, the Land Spirits came before people; before the Firbolg, the Fomorians, the sons of Mil, and your ancestors.

I cannot debate your understanding of land spirits because I dont know what they are. The sovereignty goddesses in my understanding are variously firbolg, fomorian, milesian, TDD and others not classified in the artificial christian framework of Lebar Gabala Erenn. We were a tribal people that had no centralised government until it was forced on us by force of arms. Our deities mirror that so as far as I know there is no 1 ruling deity in Ireland. We own the land after being robbed of it by foreigners. TWe can say that because we took it back by force.


But I believe that Holy Places belong to the whole world. It is Right Action for you to 'help preserve the cultural sites", but that doesn't make them yours, just still in existence for all the world to marvel at and visit. I think it is the responsibility of all the world to preserve Holy Places.

I agree there whole heartedly everyone has the right to marvel at and visit those sites. I would love everyone alive to see the things closest to my heart. They are the jewels of our cultures crown and anyone that loves them is only complementing us but it is our crown.


"Im sure every native American feels the same way about their land."
From what I have read, aboriginal North Americans prefer to identify as a member of the tribe they are a part of. If they are speaking generally, I have read several sources that firmly state they use 'Indian'.

From what I know, many tribes did not perceive themselves as 'owning' land. The Land is primordial; you could almost say that Ze owns us.

You will stay,
We will pass.
You are Land,
We are grass.

I met some Haida in Canada that called themselves indian but it was pretty much the same way rappers use the word ******. What they told me was their legends had a prophecy that because of an indescretion between them and their gods that they would be condemned to their version of hell and the reason alot dont fight for their rights is a just hell is where they believe they are now. Maybe it was a shared nationalism that let them open up to me or maybe they just told me what they thought I wanted to hear. Its not something I can see myself letting go of though.

[Nuadu]

The land is the passage mound at Knowth and the Hill of Slane. That was where my family lived before there was a Pale. I'll check to see if there's any way to get inside the mound at Knowth. I may have to do some politicking.

You will have no problems on slane if you are discrete but knowth is a problem, you cant get into the cairn and even on tours its closed off. The passage is blocked by a large exhibit inside the mound. That said you can drive right up to the gate of the site and noone is there after 7pm. You can camp ontop of the mound safely and aslong as you have the place clean before 8 nothing will be said to you.

I didnt know O'Dubhainn was an O'Neill decended name that is interesting. Are you Sil na hAedo Slaine or from before the O'Neill expansion?


The dispute between Con Connors and Michael McGrath has cooled my opinion of DruidSchool. They can't tolerate one another and it makes life miserable for anyone around them.

It is unbelievable. Even I have had arguments with them over absolutely nothing and I am noone in Irish Paganism. Con has nice family though and his eldest is involved in Druidschool and sound as a dollar pound.


My father was born on a farm in the house there. The doctor came out for the delivery. When I was a child, the ice man delivered ice for the ice box and the cane man came by with sugar cane and cane juice. Children of 5 or 6 could walk downtown unattended but never unwatched. Everyone new how they were related to everyone else and generally watched out for one another. The biggest excitement of my childhood was seeing a Navy blimp fly over. It looked like a UFO. :-)

It really is amazing how scewed my concept of america is even after visiting the place for a few months. Once upon a time it was someone I probably would have loved to be. Not that it doesnt have alot of merits now but I like that sense of community.

Thanks for answering my questions Searles :)

[Nuadu]

Just a thought...

IF the above is to be considered "disrespectful", a lot of people, including the first Gaelic-speakers in Ireland, have been disrespectful for a long time.
Historically, "Celts", in general, have been going places and interpreting the landscape, as well as other natural aspects from their own perspective for a few thousand years now. (Not saying that anyone is actually CLAIMING to be "Celts"...although they might be...just using it as an analogy.)

Truly, even using your own analogy about the Clare man vs. the Dublin man, the only way ANYONE can interpret ANYTHING is truly according to their own experience, whatever that may be....

(Good to talk to you, Nuadu!)

Its great to talk to you too Faol-chù :)

I would agree that where religion is concerned that when it boils down to it the correct way to interpret things would be tempered with a liberal dose of personal experiance but that experiance should probably be combined with less subjective things where cultures and traditions are involved.

Experiance will probably teach that anyway.

With the Celts and the formation of the Gaelic Language, in Irish universities the current thinking is primitive Irish is a combination of a local language\s with several dialects of Celtic languages. With that in mind the language cannot be considered proto celtic but proto irish. That said for its draw backs it does mean that there is a cultural continuation between the pre-celtic and celtic ireland. In that sense things were not reinterpreted according to a foreign concept but involved a natural evolution of the culture.

Im sure Im not telling you anything new there though. Nativism isnt a secret

[Faol-chù]

Its great to talk to you too Faol-chù :)

I would agree that where religion is concerned that when it boils down to it the correct way to interpret things would be tempered with a liberal dose of personal experiance but that experiance should probably be combined with less subjective things where cultures and traditions are involved.

Experiance will probably teach that anyway.

So I may be clear about what you're trying to say, what sort of "less subjective things" did you have in mind?


With the Celts and the formation of the Gaelic Language, in Irish universities the current thinking is primitive Irish is a combination of a local language\s with several dialects of Celtic languages.

You're right, it most certainly is.
But the same could be said of *every* Celtic language, and, honestly every language, in general.

With a study of history, 'Celtic Reconstructionists', are (usually) looking at ONE PARTICULAR "Celtic culture", but they are also comparing them to other Celtic language-speaking cultures, current and past and trying to understand them and how they operated...and to a large degree WHY they operated that way.
(I have to say, that having done so, myself, it is really amazing how much continuum there is...from past to present, and across the many territories.) Of course there are things that they/we don't know...and never will. We all misinterpret.
I think what is important is that an attempt is made to understand.

All of this does not mean that reconstructionists think that "every one is the same"...it's just a recognition that the similarity in languages, and, hence, thought processes are largely the reason for that.
After all,the way people tend to mentally categorize (read: THINK!) is highly dependent on what they've picked up from what they've learned at the knee--which is, of course--passed along through language, thus perpetuating the cycle of categorization.

All across Europe, as the Celtic language dialects spread, a change in the cultures and the way they are organized is obvious when one looks at the linguistics, the archaeology, and the written history we have. And across time and space, they are amazingly similar (but yes, unique at the same time).

I honestly think, too, that for American reconstructionists, and probably to a large degree, diaspora from other countries, there is a very strong 'ancestral' element.
I have to say that through my very pronounced Protestant upbringing, I learned more about the Hebrews of the Bible than I did my own heritage and culture. And SINCE most of my relatives came from the island of Britain and Ireland, I tend to look in that direction (along with my more recent ancestral history here) to understand where I came from.





With that in mind the language cannot be considered proto celtic but proto irish.

I may be mistaking what you are saying (please clarify if I am), but "proto Celtic" is not really a language...It is a 'hypothetical reconstruction'. I can't think of any scholars who would have suggested that "proto Celtic" would have been anywhere near Ireland.

Does what you are saying mean that you are trying to distance yourself from the whole "Celtic" designation?



That said for its draw backs it does mean that there is a cultural continuation between the pre-celtic and celtic ireland. In that sense things were not reinterpreted according to a foreign concept but involved a natural evolution of the culture.

I do not disagree...But by that token, the influence of the British domination of Ireland (and its forced transition to English from Gaelic) might said to be "natural evolution", as well.

From the archaeological record, it does not seem that, across space, the transition to what is now deemed as "Celtic" was a bloodless one. I know that, in Britain, the archaeological record shows a marked increase in violent activities with the strenghtening of the iron age (and spread of the Celtic languages), compared with the relative (based on archaeological evidence) peace that was there before that.


Im sure Im not telling you anything new there though. Nativism isnt a secret

Not by any stretch...:)

And I understand it well.

[Faol-chù]

Nuadu said
Thats wonderfull and actually does warm my heart because my visits there left me with the feeling the land was fractured and the deities injured and angry, it is something totally new to me. What I dont understand is why anyone who can connect to their land that meaningfully would bother denying themselves that natural thing and go looking for other deities. It must be a cultural thing I am getting alot of flack for asking the question.You know, Nuadu, that's a really good question, and I have some things to say about it...

Firstly, I think considering the attitudes of the first Europeans to come to this part of North America and attempt to start a colony, the idea that "one could learn from the other" would have really been a "pipe dream". The English settlers thought themselves to be morally (at least) superior, and that was that.

Secondly....overall...the extreme difference in languages would have made such communications difficult.
I am actually part Native American....by blood (2 generations back). I have attempted to learn a little about a couple of the languages. I have attempted to understand their religious beliefs (which I have to say in most cases...especially in this part of the country...has been largely lost due to "indian schools" and the forced loss of their language). Some of it makes a LOT of sense...But a lot of it feels very disjointed. I am absolutely certain that part of this is because of the reasons I've stated above. I think that it's just so very different from everything I know and that I've internalized from my own culture, I find it difficult to grasp.
You add to that the fact that, currently, most modern Native America groups DO NOT want 'white people' (unless that is, they can show evidence of "blood" --from a "recognized tribe"--politics is a really nasty thing!) knowing much of anything about their beliefs. It's partly "protectionist" considering the exploitive history....but the politics is a discussion for another time.

Next...You should know that a lot of people who consider themselves to be 'Traditionalist' are right behind you in your wonderment about trying to bring all of these gods from Ireland here in some form. Several of them go out into the woods and 'listen', and have relationships with the spirits here.

I think, though (UPG based on my studies and experience), that SOME of the gods (mostly those who have made it through 'sainthood') are not necessarily tied specifically to the land. For lack of a better term, I feel strongly that some of the gods may, in fact, be 'ancestral'.
Some of them may even be tied more to 'the sky'...a designation which would lend them the ability to relate to anyone, anywere, anytime.

...So the belief in and veneration of some of these gods does not necessarily preclude a person from venerating also the spirits of the land.
Some of us even feel that it is our duty to establish a relationship with the land (and water!) and start working towards healing it....as we heal ourselves.

I hope I've been helpful here, and not offensive..:)

[Nuadu]

You made some fun points here Faol Chu I think this is one of the most rewarding threads Ive started on the site. Yay! :hahugh:


So I may be clear about what you're trying to say, what sort of "less subjective things" did you have in mind?

Archaeology Vs Philology for example...

The biggest mistake I see most often in that light is in dating the Lebar Gabala invasions to historical invasions. The legends should not be open to subjection they are a static picture of the bealoidas from more then a millennium ago. We may want to impose rationalism on religion with empirical methods according to our modernist point of view but it is a mistake. If we put aside contemporary existance and try to see things from the point of view of the authors of LGE then the nature of the invasions is clear and I atleast found I could move forward in interpreting the stories in that compilation.



All across Europe, as the Celtic language dialects spread, a change in the cultures and the way they are organized is obvious when one looks at the linguistics, the archaeology, and the written history we have. And across time and space, they are amazingly similar (but yes, unique at the same time).

I can only disagree. Defining a culture by a language was something done by romantacists and Philology is an art not a science because it is entirely subject to personal interpretation.
M.J. O Kelly (long reference yolk below from new irish history if youre interested) makes the point that when the various celtic peoples arrived in ireland they met with a large population of a well established, influential and technologically advanced culture. Without a literal military invasion of the entire country that was not possible for geographical and cultural reasons it would be impossible for a celtic culture to impose itself over the native culture. What may have happend was we became anglecised through trade with europe and a small cultural elite landed here with greater trade links in mainland europe then any native could manage alone. Those Tuaths that sided with the newcomers and learned their language prospered and those that didnt ultimately lost their status and became fortuatha. That way the language could have dispersed.

What we can say for certain is the archaeology we have for iron age military tools like swords and sheilds distinct to the celts are few in number and were preceded by bronze age replicas while the native type of rapier like short swords and rounded shields are prolific. Iron age Irish culture certainly did not match that of Wales or Britanny and nor did its Bronze age or Stone age. We cant be called Proto Celts or Celts in a definate sense. At the moment.

Prehistoric and early Ireland ed. O Croinin, Daibhi, Chapter V Bronze Age Ireland by O'Kelly, M.J. pp 129 - 134


I may be mistaking what you are saying (please clarify if I am), but "proto Celtic" is not really a language...It is a 'hypothetical reconstruction'. I can't think of any scholars who would have suggested that "proto Celtic" would have been anywhere near Ireland.

Im sorry if I got the term wrong. Someday mainland europe might discover a celtic vernacular to work from but today the earliest forms of the Irish language are used through the art of Philology (comparative method) to construct a celtic lanaguage. Which is fine but it cannot be an historical celtic language given our earliest language at its earliest stage is still a blend of native languages and a mix of celtic languages.


Does what you are saying mean that you are trying to distance yourself from the whole "Celtic" designation?

Absolutely. On top of having our own well established culture before we were influenced by alot of european civilisations including the far more powerfull rome.



I do not disagree...But by that token, the influence of the British domination of Ireland (and its forced transition to English from Gaelic) might said to be "natural evolution", as well.

Janey mac Faol-chù that is fairly a harsh point.
It is fairly valid in todays climate where Irish is not used by people who can speak it fluently because it is not a language of social mobility. All that aside when we historically adopted the Irish language we adopted it by choice and that is an old idea one embodied in Senchas like the Auriacept na nEces. While our interaction with Britain was inevitable I think Britains history in Ireland (the complete abolition of our culture on our own soil among other things) means the two are incomparable.


From the archaeological record, it does not seem that, across space, the transition to what is now deemed as "Celtic" was a bloodless one. I know that, in Britain, the archaeological record shows a marked increase in violent activities with the strenghtening of the iron age (and spread of the Celtic languages), compared with the relative (based on archaeological evidence) peace that was there before that.

While a lack of archaeological record for normal day to day life in Iron Age Ireland could be inferred to mean there was unrest its dangerous to work from a lack of information. (Britain and Ireland are not the same place though, our history is different and so our archaeology) Archaeology is a science and is not subjective. Tomorrow we could uncover something that overthrows all theories even ones that have become accepted truths. How Damaging would that be to Archaeology?

[Nuadu]

I hope I've been helpful here, and not offensive..:)

Not offensive but refreshingly direct.




I think, though (UPG based on my studies and experience), that SOME of the gods (mostly those who have made it through 'sainthood') are not necessarily tied specifically to the land. For lack of a better term, I feel strongly that some of the gods may, in fact, be 'ancestral'.
Some of them may even be tied more to 'the sky'...a designation which would lend them the ability to relate to anyone, anywere, anytime.

I can definately understand the ancestral quality its common enough for politically powerfull dynasties to be related to Gods in their genealogies. I would not say that its not possible for Irish Gods to be in America it is an interesting concept. There is a folkstory involving a banshee in Boston that would be an example of a deity who had a relationship with someones ancestor making the journey.


...So the belief in and veneration of some of these gods does not necessarily preclude a person from venerating also the spirits of the land.
Some of us even feel that it is our duty to establish a relationship with the land (and water!) and start working towards healing it....as we heal ourselves.

That is a greatly refreshing Idea. I suppose it is understandable given the history of the land and the politics of the day that people do not relate as strongly to local deities. I would imagine though that it is difficult to escape those deities. The practice where new pagans open themselves to any deity around in the hopes they will be chosen makes me wonder if alot of people are mistaking those local deities for european ones. Thats compounded by those inexperianced people being forced to divine the name of the deity they meet combined with disparate descriptions of deities from senchas and from new pagans.

I have no doubt that experianced people could tell the difference but I would say its a rare thing in that practice. Deities dont pursue humans in senchas, only the best of the best the rest get randomly slaughtered or just cant perceive them.

Anyway Ramble. Thanks for the reply :D

[Nuadu]

Actually, it's quite an Irish tendency. :)

I am unfamiliar with the tendancy of irish people to know or care what bloodline is in them. There are no pure blooded Irish people as far as I know. Could you elaborate?



If having grown up in an Irish-American household or community, the values really aren't so separate. As I've said, there are communities in the U.S--though, very few--that have maintained their sense of cultural identity and history, and have refrained from full assimilation into American culture. Not everyone in these communities considers themselves Americans first.

Tomas I am familiar with the idea that Irish Americans can consider themselves Irish first. There is an Irish American Comedian here that never shuts up about how he was slapped down for thinking it when he arrived. So much so he went to connemara to learn Irish and filmed it and goes around promoting Irish now. Check out des bishop on you tube.
Everyone likes him, but he is still the yank comedian. Ireland and America are different places but youre welcome to move here. Its obviously annoying you so I wont go on about it. Dessie is funny check him out.



I'm getting the impression that this is more of your personal sentiment than those of the Irish people in general.

Sorry boss, its not. Im not saying you arent welcome. The diaspora are always welcome but you should not mistake politeness for reality. The "You must hate all americans" bit is cheap and lame btw. No smoke without fire what?

[Nuadu]

Hi Tomas,


Thanks for that link Tomas it is interesting. Unfortunately I would say tjhe discussion comes from an American cultural perspective and does not properly take into account either historical or contemporary Irish cultural perspective on the issue and I side with Banba in the discussion when she makes the point that genetics was an undiscovered science in that period of history so it was not a consideration and Skilly-Nilly in that traditions such as fosterage show that the bond to people outside the family group was often stronger then those within the derbhine when family members often murdered each other to gain the right of sucession. Alliances built from fosterage often decided the outcome of a succession in dyastic septs. The role of the Tanist is exceptionally relevant there. The Tainiste of a Dynastic group was never of the Derbhine and the cultural site where the inauguration was held was in the Tainistes territory. Look at the O'Hagans role in the O'Neill succession and the Tullyhogue Fort cultural site for an example.

I would go further then that and say blood was not very important at all. The idea of legitimacy had no legal basis in Brehon law and primogeniture was not practiced.

Culture is what matters Tomas not blood,
I am from Dublin and outside Dublin my accent marks me as a Jackeen, less Irish then the locals. It means in some places I cannot get a bed in a B&B unless I book online or my partner books over the phone for us. You will never be exempt from that standard and given that I as a native Irish person have to deal with it I dont see why you should or would want to be exempt from doing the same.

[childofbast]

I just wanted to hop in and give some of my thoughts on CR and the land.

I'm new to CR by a couple years so I'm still learning. Most of my ancestry is Irish and I feel very strongly about my ancestors and the land they came from. It is my dream to visit but, for the time being, all I can do is learn and practice in my own way.

I grew up in a rural area and I have very close ties to the land. I never thought about the nature spirits in terms of First Nation or Celtic... or any cultures. I simply view them as the spirits of the land, not necessarily belonging to any culture, but to the land itself.

In regards to spirits who are characterized culturally, like the sidhe, I kind of take Neil Gaiman's stance. Have you read American Gods? While I don't necessarily think that there are American versions of the Gods, I do think that some of the spirits came over with our ancestors. I believe that they live near the people who honor them out of convenience.

I think that many of the Gods are able to communicate with us in America, especially if we make holy places for them - homes away from home, if you will. They are Gods who know powerful magic - why couldn't they connect with Irish Americans? I've experienced my own UPG and that's all I need to feel that I have every right to worship and commune with the TDD. They've welcomed me. No Native American spirit has called out to me in the same way as the TTD. You don't have to believe that, but that is what I believe.

In regards to national identity, I don't consider myself Irish, but I am very proud of my heritage. I feel that I have every right to study and practice the spirituality of my ancestors.

Peace,
Melanie

[Nuadu]

Hi Melanie thanks for replying :)


In regards to national identity, I don't consider myself Irish, but I am very proud of my heritage. I feel that I have every right to study and practice the spirituality of my ancestors.

I would never deny you that right, you are honouring the things I love. I think the discussion got off topic a bit with cultural differences if I offended you or anyone else by being blunt about the insular nature of Irish culture I apologise. Culture is not something thats static and irish culture has evolved alot through interaction with other cultures but in all fairness if Irish culture was not remarkably insular the "Celtic" traditions we are famous for would not have survived after they vanished from mainland europe.


I just wanted to hop in and give some of my thoughts on CR and the land.

[quote]I grew up in a rural area and I have very close ties to the land. I never thought about the nature spirits in terms of First Nation or Celtic... or any cultures. I simply view them as the spirits of the land, not necessarily belonging to any culture, but to the land itself.

Thats pretty cool its great to see some people in America do have that same link to the land that is emphasised in Irish culture. Did you find that was accented in your CR study?


In regards to spirits who are characterized culturally, like the sidhe, I kind of take Neil Gaiman's stance. Have you read American Gods? While I don't necessarily think that there are American versions of the Gods, I do think that some of the spirits came over with our ancestors. I believe that they live near the people who honor them out of convenience.

I havent read American Gods I read the summary in wikipedia though and it sounds like a good fun read. Thanks for the recommend :hahugh:

I would agree that there are ancestral deities naturally bonded to their families. I would speculate that venerated ancestors become those deities through our interaction with their spirits. Would you say they change physical location and occupy the territory or cultural site of a first nations deity as their family occupied their land or would you say they move in less corporeal terms.

I could agree that it is possible deities move non corporeally journeying meditation is a common practice here and if we are capable of going to the otherworld there is no reason the door does not turn both ways.



They are Gods who know powerful magic - why couldn't they connect with Irish Americans?

I am not saying they cant because putting a limit on something as nebulous as a concept of deity is not a sensible thing to do but hypothetically... In Senchas and Bealoidas both culture and being an exceptional person are limiting factors on meeting deities or atleast getting their attention.

In mythology the Gods do not communicate with everyone, only the cultural elite. The senchas sees deities killing lesser mortals like Lugh in the cattle raid of cooley or being invisible to them like Mannann mac lir in the only jealousy of emer. Specifically

In Bealoidas (folklore but that word has bad connotations) the gods\fairies\Ghosts are invisible to people outside the culture, do not communicate with people who do not show the culturally correct way of greeting them, only speak in Irish and people unable to understand the language only hear noise andsometimes attack people who do not show proper reverence for cultural sites.

Within that context an average person outside Ireland who was not a part of the culture is unlikely to get a reponse from a deity. An average american who happens to have Irish ancestry is no more likely to meet an irish god then an average american of African decent.

That aside if either of those two studies Irish culture sufficiently and is a remarkable enough person to warrant individual attention then I dont see any reason why they would not attract the attention of an irish deity.


I've experienced my own UPG and that's all I need to feel that I have every right to worship and commune with the TDD. They've welcomed me. No Native American spirit has called out to me in the same way as the TTD. You don't have to believe that, but that is what I believe.

I dont share other peoples contempt for UPG. Experiance is not a transferable product and it is what marks the novice from the adept in all paganism. I would not question your belief, if you say it is true then it is true. Who am I to shout someone elses heart felt beliefs down.

I have a question though and do not take this as a criticism in any way...How do you know the gods that called out to you are Tuatha de Dannan?

With a dash of nativism here I would point out that the Tuatha de Dannan arent THE irish gods. The invasion motif in the book of invasions is a christian invention based on the propaganda of the day that kings of all civilisations succeeded each other until the coming of Gods rule on earth under the Roman emporer constantine. You can see the world chronicle in the national library here, each civilisation has a colume with a list of names leading up to constantine. When everyone accepted his rule.

The invasion motif itself came about because the book of invasions had to mirror 8th century Irish society to be accepted as being within the realms of possibility and with no history of a centralised government one could not plausably be created to show a succession of kings for the whole island. So being familiar with a similar motif of banishment and a return with power gained abroad from the dynastic genealogies it was a succession of conquering invaders that was used instead.

The Parthalonians, cessarians, Fir bolg, Fomaire, TdD and Mileseans are all gods of equal status and you are equally likely to meet any of those Gods depending on where your family was from. The deities are equal in that those invasions are a ficticious compilation of Territories creation myths and only temporal political power of the tribes within those territories within Early to medeival Irish culture would give one group greater importance then the other.

It would be interesting if they did mention they were TdD. I would have guessed that because of the non corporeal nature of the gods that they would not know of, understand or care about the 8th century groupings that were fabricated for them.

I would really love to know. Im sorry if I am being in any way offensive or patronising.

[childofbast]

I've found that my love of nature brought me to Paganism in general, and yes, I think CR has made me look at my relationship with nature in many different ways, making the way I feel about the land all the more powerful. Studying history and lore, slowly but surely, has given me new ideas about how to better honor nature in a very spiritual sense.


Would you say they change physical location and occupy the territory or cultural site of a first nations deity as their family occupied their land or would you say they move in less corporeal terms.


I don't really know. I'm very agnostic about certain spiritual things. I'm still working on getting to know the land spirits. It's harder for me now that I've moved to a suburban area. I grew up in a rural home surrounded by trees. I definitely feel that my current home is somewhat... barren. I find myself thirsty for my parents' home, the trees, the shrine in the backyard, and the spirits who live there. Like I said in my previous reply, I don't tend to think of the nature spirits as culturally specific, but for those beings who are... it's hard to say. I definitely believe that there's a spirit in the home and that may or may not be Irish. I feel that it's somehow related to my ancestry, though. I definitely need to make more of an effort to learn more, that's for sure! I suppose that it is possible for Irish spirits to occupy land that was once home to a First Nation Spirit, but considering that I had European ancestors who married Native Americans, I don't doubt that they could interbreed and/or learn to live together as different human tribes can. Maybe the spirits living near my family and I are of similar background to me!


I have a question though and do not take this as a criticism in any way...How do you know the gods that called out to you are Tuatha de Dannan?

I definitely do not take offense to your question. People should be willing to ask themselves these sorts of questions from time to time. It's healthy! My fiance and I often talk about these sort of things, actually, so I'm used to it.

Again, I have to be a bit agnostic about it. I can't ever really know. I have to have a bit of faith in what my instincts tell me, what I feel the Gods are telling me, and what lore tells me. In a couple meditations that turned into trances, An Dagda named himself to me. But, again, I can never be 100% sure that it's really him. Maybe it's just my imagination! But I have faith that it was him and I will continue to honor him.

I will look into the pieces you mentioned. Like I said, I'm still new to this so I haven't read as much as many others on this forum.

In what ways do you honor the Gods, spirits, and ancestors? What would you call your spiritual practices? I'm simply asking as someone who would like to learn more.

Peace,
Melanie

[odubhain]

Unfortunately I would say tjhe discussion comes from an American cultural perspective and does not properly take into account either historical or contemporary Irish cultural perspective on the issue and I side with Banba in the discussion when she makes the point that genetics was an undiscovered science in that period of history so it was not a consideration and Skilly-Nilly in that traditions such as fosterage show that the bond to people outside the family group was often stronger then those within the derbhine when family members often murdered each other to gain the right of sucession. Alliances built from fosterage often decided the outcome of a succession in dyastic septs. The role of the Tanist is exceptionally relevant there. The Tainiste of a Dynastic group was never of the Derbhine and the cultural site where the inauguration was held was in the Tainistes territory. Look at the O'Hagans role in the O'Neill succession and the Tullyhogue Fort cultural site for an example.

I would go further then that and say blood was not very important at all. The idea of legitimacy had no legal basis in Brehon law and primogeniture was not practiced.

Culture is what matters Tomas not blood,
I am from Dublin and outside Dublin my accent marks me as a Jackeen, less Irish then the locals. It means in some places I cannot get a bed in a B&B unless I book online or my partner books over the phone for us. You will never be exempt from that standard and given that I as a native Irish person have to deal with it I dont see why you should or would want to be exempt from doing the same.

While it is true that fosterage was important to the ancient Irish, the unit of responsibility in Brehon Law was the fine or family (from eDIL which defines the terms used for the idea from the Brehon Laws):

1 fine

fini fine finiu -da f. finigheacha fin-
Keywords: group; persons; family; kindred; adopted; family; kindred; adoption; progeny; des-; cendants; clan; tribe; race; nations; territory; occupied; tribe; belonging; treasure; family; race; heirloom; tribal; stock
Letter: F
COLUMN: 139
Line: 03

1 fine
iā,f. ( Mélanges ... à H. Pedersen 1937 p. 104 ). as. fini WB 28 A 4 . (gs. fine, THES. II 295.13 may belong to FÍNE). Later also io,m. ap. finiu, RAWL. 124 B 48 . fine (m. and f., pl. fine, -da) IGT , DECL. § 1

(a) a group of persons of the same family or kindred; as techn. term a group of male persons of common descent, the members of which were legally responsible for each other and had certain reciprocal obliga- tions; the fine embraced four divisions, the gelfine (family proper, including 3 generations), derbfine, iarfine and indfine (including 4, 5 and 6 generations resp.), each group extend- ing to a remoter degree of kinship and the measure of common legal responsibility being proportionately dimi- nished; the fine had a recognized living head, entitled var- iously áige fine, conn fine, art fine ( Mélanges ... à Ped. 302
) or cenn fine Other `fine'-relations of a more or less tem- porary nature might be formed for special reasons. See LAWS IV 282FF . and Gloss.; Thurn., Cōic Conara Fugill 44 . RC VII 15 , 22 ; xxv 4 ff ., 181 ff .; MacNeill, Celtic Ireland 56 ff ., 171 ff .


derbfine

Keywords: family; group
Letter: D2
COLUMN: 32
Line: 023

derbfine
iā,f. (1 DERB + fine) family group of four generations comprising one person, i.e. the grandfather of the individual, and 8 categories of persons represented by the individual, his children, his father, his brothers, their children, his paternal uncles, and their children and grandchildren. See MacNeill's Celtic Ire- land , 171
. `The derbfine . . . includes . . . the head of the family group, his children, grandchildren and great-grand-children', ib. 120 . an trīan rosaigh in derbfine, cinnus ranntair? . . . ranntair óthá athair ┐ mac co senathair for cūlo ┐ frithrusc a frithisi coruici ingen-ar-mēraibh `the third that the derbfine has attained, how is it divided? from father and son (of the deceased) backwards to grandfather, and in the opposite direction back again (from grandfather) to ingen-ar-méraib, ÉRIU I 215.15 . Celt. Irel. 119 .

íarfine

Keywords: second group
Letter: I
COLUMN: 20
Line: 081

iarfine
iā, f. the name of the second group in the early three-fold division of the fine (derbḟine, íarfine, indḟine), that is, the group consisting of the common ancestor and four generations of his descendants (see Linguistic and Historical Value of the Irish Law Tracts p. 30 ff.
: Later a narrower group, the GEILḟINE (q.v. ), was recognised: fodeiligt[h]ir in dibad itir na teora fine .i. deirbfine ┐ iarfine ┐ indfine `the inheritance is distributed among the three fini ...,'

indfine

Keywords: end-family; fourth; subdivision
Letter: I
COLUMN: 226
Line: 051

indfine
iā, f. (? end-family) the fourth subdivision of the `fine.' See MacNeill, Celtic Ireland p p. 160 ff.
171 f. cis lir fini tuaithe ... ? ite fine cacha tuaithe, geilfine, deirbfine, iarfine, indfine, deirgfine ..., LAWS IV 282.17 FF. innfine asi is sine dibh ` `innfine' is the remotest of them ,' 292.2 Comm. arindhi it cétheora fine ata nesom conbeirat cinaid cacha bunadaig: gelfine ocus derbfine, iarfine ocus i.¤, i 260.3 . ite fine cacha tuaithe, geilfine, deirbfine, iarfine, i.¤, deirgfine `these are the family divisions of each territory ,' iv 282.x-y . But cf. : fodeiligt[h]ir in dibad itir na teora fine .i. deirbfine ┐ iarfine ┐ i.¤, STUD. IN E. IR. LAW 143.Y COMM.

indfine co uii. firu dec ... Duthaig duine otha sen, iss ann scarait finnthea `the `innfine' extends to seventeen men ... From this forth it is a case of a community of people, it is then family relations cease ,' LAWS IV 284.7 - 9 .

There's lots more along these lines in the laws themselves. I'd be interested in reading more about the ideas presented concerning Tainiste that you've provided above as I've never seen it before and it would provide some insight into Irish families and laws for me.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

I've found that my love of nature brought me to Paganism in general, and yes, I think CR has made me look at my relationship with nature in many different ways, making the way I feel about the land all the more powerful. Studying history and lore, slowly but surely, has given me new ideas about how to better honor nature in a very spiritual sense.

Thanks for replying again :)

Do you think studying the Irish Senchas has increased your understanding of the land you are physically present on or would it increase your relationship to Ireland?




I suppose that it is possible for Irish spirits to occupy land that was once home to a First Nation Spirit, but considering that I had European ancestors who married Native Americans, I don't doubt that they could interbreed and/or learn to live together as different human tribes can. Maybe the spirits living near my family and I are of similar background to me!

That native and Irish Deities would coexist is an interesting concept. I would believe that ancestral spirits of both groups are around but do you think that deities from territorial tribal cultures would share that societies traits?

American egalitarianism doesnt really exist in Ireland today even though we pay it lip service because the successfull American revolution went a good way to inspiring a number of our own revolutions. Our society fosters rival cultural elites who rule over Ireland like crap bond villians most of the time (the odd bout of altruism has afflicted members of the elite once in a blue moon) and I would imagine from my cultural perspective that the otherworld if I manage to make it there through a process of spiritual growth would be a more perfect version of Irish society, rival elites included. If our Gods and ancestors were hobnobbing with each other in an otherworldly democracy and completely at ease with all the worlds peoples I would be distinctly dissapointed.


Again, I have to be a bit agnostic about it. I can't ever really know. I have to have a bit of faith in what my instincts tell me, what I feel the Gods are telling me, and what lore tells me. In a couple meditations that turned into trances, An Dagda named himself to me. But, again, I can never be 100% sure that it's really him. Maybe it's just my imagination! But I have faith that it was him and I will continue to honor him.

I am really enjoying this thread!
Is journeying meditation a part of Recon or did you pick it up on your own? That seems to be a widespread tradition among Irish pagans but I had never come across it among reconstructionalists.



In what ways do you honor the Gods, spirits, and ancestors? What would you call your spiritual practices? I'm simply asking as someone who would like to learn more.

YAY! a chance to talk about me :boing:
Answering those questions would take a long time though...

I suppose one difference between what I do and CR would be on a day to day basis I dont invite gods into my home. My concept of deity would be different to most of what I have seen expressed online. In my experiance here Gods are vast slumbering entities that dont pay alot of attention to what goes on in our form of existance you can grab their attention in a group at their associated cultural sites but will not get any kind of individual attention outside journeying meditation.

They dont seem to fully grasp how things work here and when a general urging goes out from one of them to a group or area of people its best to treat it with caution and consider the concequences. They are fickle in association and maybe unintentionally dangerous. Journeying meditation is my way of getting to know the deities better to avoid those pot holes and pit falls caused by interacting with them.

Given that description Im sure its not surprising that on a daily basis I dont invite them into my home. I have a hawthorn tree planted close to the house that I maintain and leave daily offerings at for the local dieties (And the food hoovering moggies that live near by). If I want to honour a specific deity I generally go to their associated cultural sites unless it is a specific festival that involves honouring the land deities like Brigid.

I couldnt go over to the cultural site so I set a place for her at the table with the best and freshest food we have over the week. My thinking is as the Goddess of Leinster and specifically Kildare where I am living now she has a say in all the territory anyway so I am not really inviting her in as much as honouring her where she already has a right to be.

I call what I do Irish Paganism, the only distinguishing term being Irish. I think others do the same with energy work. Irish witchcraft by an Irish Witch by Lora O'Brien is an example of a similar naming of Irishness in neo-paganism.

[childofbast]

I'm also a member of ADF, an American based Druidic organization that is CR in focus but open to a bit more woo, I suppose. I can't speak for all CRs when I say that I use meditation and trance, but I know it's something many in ADF do.

It is interesting to hear about your beliefs. I definitly feel that some Gods are more interested in society than others and feel that those others are a bit more dangerous to work with, but I think I see and experience Gods like An Dagda and Brighid as more active entities. We all have our own ways of expriencing deity, so I don't really think one is better than the other. :)

CR is kind of a misnomer for many of us, and I think others would agree, because we don't just follow all Celtic cultures. We pick one and study it. I'm very drawn to and interested in Irish culture and spirituality so I sometimes call myself an Irish polytheist. Either way is hard because if I call myself a Celtic Recon, it's not fully accurate because, although I do have Celtic heritage, don't speak more than a few words of Irish. Same thing with "Irish polytheist". I'm not nationally Irish but my heritage is and I'm slowly learning the language but I'm not fluent... It's a can of worms, really. But it's easier than calling myself a "polytheist who attempts to recreate the spiritual practice of Ireland in a modern American context." That's just a bit too much. :P It's often easier to simply say that I'm an ADF Druid.

Now I've probably confused you...

In regards to your question about the land and whether or not learning more about Irish spirituality has increased my understanding/relationship to my own land or to Ireland... I definitely feel a deep relationship to my own land, so much so that I'd be very sad if I were to move to a desert state or any place that was very different from the temperate climate I'm so used to. In what little world travel I've done, though, I felt a great sense of home in England, where some of my ancestors are from, and I believe that I'll feel similarly in Ireland when I get there. I didn't feel this way in France, although I liked it there, and I don't feel it in Canada, but I felt something very strongly in England. I remember feeling very strongly that my blood was in the land.

That said, I often feel the Gods around me in the land. In some ways, it could be because a huge population of Irish descendants live in NY state, where I live. The Gods may just have a presence here now. Maybe I am really experiencing the First Nation Gods, but I simply don't believe I am because why would they present themselves to me as the TDD?

I guess I just have a different understanding of the land and the Gods than you do. I don't think one way is better than the other, they're just different. I truly enjoy talking to you about these differences though. I'm learning a lot and thinking a lot.

Peace,
Melanie

[Seren_]

I am really enjoying this thread!
Is journeying meditation a part of Recon or did you pick it up on your own? That seems to be a widespread tradition among Irish pagans but I had never come across it among reconstructionalists.

I don't know about CRs in other countries, but journeying meditations were a large part of how I connected with the gods when I didn't live in Scotland. Now I do I have geographical prompts, as it were, that help me connect, but many of the gods I honour are associated with this country by virtue of the fact that the Gaels brought them here in the first place. They may not be native, but they've become a part of this landscape (some of them at least). So I still journey sometimes.


YAY! a chance to talk about me :boing:
Answering those questions would take a long time though...

I suppose one difference between what I do and CR would be on a day to day basis I dont invite gods into my home. I don't know about other CRs, but I don't actively invite the gods into my home on a daily basis. I give thanks to them, but I don't actually ask them to stop by; I kinda figure that seeing as they're bigger than me, they'll come in if they want to, or not, and be with me if they want to or not; that said, there are times, like the festivals, when I do expect them to visit, so I make sure my house is in good order to provide the appropriate hospitality to them.

There are some gods that I see as being closer to me than others, in a personal sense, but often I go to certain places to speak with them; I go to the sea to speak with Manannan, say, or go to the woods or my garden, where the crows are, to speak with Badb. I maintain an altar in my house that I use as a focus when need be, but that's to help me connect with them, rather than being a literal idea of 'this space, here, is where the gods are right now,' (because really, one shelf is a bit small to contain a whole bunch of gods). I see it as a conduit, I suppose, to where the gods reside; I see myself as approaching them, rather than them being in my house already, waiting to chat whenever I feel like it.

Their presence in my life is a bit more nebulous, I guess. Although like you, I may honour specific deities at certain festivals and invite them in to my home in a more literal sense, pretty much as you described for Imbolc, it's on their terms. If they want to come in, it's an open house. Mostly, however, I talk to them and interact with them when I make offerings and devotionals, which is usually outside.


My concept of deity would be different to most of what I have seen expressed online. In my experiance here Gods are vast slumbering entities that dont pay alot of attention to what goes on in our form of existance you can grab their attention in a group at their associated cultural sites but will not get any kind of individual attention outside journeying meditation.

They dont seem to fully grasp how things work here and when a general urging goes out from one of them to a group or area of people its best to treat it with caution and consider the concequences. They are fickle in association and maybe unintentionally dangerous. Journeying meditation is my way of getting to know the deities better to avoid those pot holes and pit falls caused by interacting with them.

Given that description Im sure its not surprising that on a daily basis I dont invite them into my home. I have a hawthorn tree planted close to the house that I maintain and leave daily offerings at for the local dieties (And the food hoovering moggies that live near by). If I want to honour a specific deity I generally go to their associated cultural sites unless it is a specific festival that involves honouring the land deities like Brigid.

I wonder if the difference in perception between yourself and CRs is that many CRs seem to have similar perceptions of the Good Folk as you do of the gods, from what I can gather...There's an overlap, but I get a sense that you see them more as surviving lore dictates, rather than slightly older myth?

In my view (to be clear that I'm speaking personally), neither are to be trifled with, and both are to be approached with caution; but personally I approach the gods as I feel that it's appropriate to do so, and on their terms. It's my belief that a lot of the conflation between the Good Folk and the gods has come about since Christianity tried to rationalise native beliefs into a Christian framework, so there's a very fine line between them.

The myths show that certain gods pursued personal relationships with humans, and that's where I take my cue on that, so to speak. But also, the myths are clear that there were gods and ungods in Ireland, but both were Otherworldly. The Wee Buggers I'll make sure are happy to stay away, as much as I can, and much of my festive celebrations are focused on making sure I don't attract unwanted attention. But otherwise, if the gods want to arrive on my doorstep, they're more than welcome. And no, I don't want to piss them off so I'll offer my hospitality or thanks as is appropriate.

I'm not sure I'm making sense, so I'm hoping I've responded to your post in the way that you meant it and we're not talking at cross purposes again...

[childofbast]

Actually, Seren, your post makes a lot of sense. In fact, I think you described my own beliefs of the Gods better than I could. :)

Peace,
Melanie

[Nuadu]

While it is true that fosterage was important to the ancient Irish, the unit of responsibility in Brehon Law was the fine or family

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you Searles. That was quite a post! My response to it (apart from the references below) is there was a difference between Theory and Practice.
Take the Derbhine for example - in theory the king or cheiftain was elected by the fine but in practice Ireland was not a democracy however much the idea might appeal to us. Kings are subject to clientship and their overlords choose who succeeds only the top tier of society the Kings of Provinces had anything resembeling a Derbhine election.

Even then it was not likely to be an election, siblings acend to power by murdering or blinding each other and when taking the details of the inauguration into consideration even if a quasi democratic election took place the chosen king had to meet the requirements of his most powerfull sub-kingdoms and the poets or monks in his territory. In that context fosterage with those powerfull groups supercedes family elections, if the sub kingdom rejects the king he cannot be inaugurated at the cultural site and he is in real danger of going to war and trying to reduce the most powerfull people in his territory to keep his position if not his life. Likewise if the king does not meet the fili or monks requirements his equal in Brehon Law (equal in that they are all technically above the law) then there will be no kingship and the monks chosen will likely enough make war on the derbhines chosen king.


There's lots more along these lines in the laws themselves. I'd be interested in reading more about the ideas presented concerning Tainiste that you've provided above as I've never seen it before and it would provide some insight into Irish families and laws for me.

Searles O'Dubhain

If you check out Kings and High Kings Byrne, F.J. Chapter 1 PP 21 - 23 he references the O'Hagan - O'Neill relationship specifically as overlord and Tanist, he also mentions alot of what I said above... more coherently.

Also Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland Nicholls, K.W. has a chapter devoted to tanistry, succession and Inauguration.

[Nuadu]

I don't know about CRs in other countries, but journeying meditations were a large part of how I connected with the gods when I didn't live in Scotland. Now I do I have geographical prompts, as it were, that help me connect, but many of the gods I honour are associated with this country by virtue of the fact that the Gaels brought them here in the first place. They may not be native, but they've become a part of this landscape (some of them at least). So I still journey sometimes.

Thanks for replying Seren :)
So could journeying meditation would reasonably be assumed to be a strong part of CR then given the majority atleast are outside the Trad lands?

What do you think about the Echtra and Imrama? Some People think those journeys in myth are medeival forgeries based on Christian stories and others that they are older pagan stories. One position implies that journeying meditation is traditional and the other is opposed...


I wonder if the difference in perception between yourself and CRs is that many CRs seem to have similar perceptions of the Good Folk as you do of the gods, from what I can gather...There's an overlap, but I get a sense that you see them more as surviving lore dictates, rather than slightly older myth?

In my view (to be clear that I'm speaking personally), neither are to be trifled with, and both are to be approached with caution; but personally I approach the gods as I feel that it's appropriate to do so, and on their terms. It's my belief that a lot of the conflation between the Good Folk and the gods has come about since Christianity tried to rationalise native beliefs into a Christian framework, so there's a very fine line between them.



That is another big difference I have noticed in CR but it is the larger more global issue of Modernist and Post-Modernist philosophies on Traditional societies. Its impossible to ask someone to deconstruct their entire world view and beyond anyones expectations here. The modernist sees tradition as static and counter productive to progression (So dismisses Bealoidas and studies only the oldest Senchas) and the post modernist seeing tradition as static (discounting the Bealoidas as corrupt) tries to reinvent an a long superceeded tradition in the image of his modern life. All 3 ways (including the nativist approach) are rewarding and the post modern is likely to be the more popular of the group so all are valuable.

The Gods in early Senchas are the same as the Good Folk in the Bealoidas, its just the stories about them have evolved with our culture. For example our Sovereign Goddess still holds an important position in Bealoidas Contemporary Irish Society. What began as the Goddess Bui in one corner of Ireland for example over time evolved to Cailleach Bheara who over time became the bean feasa Maire Ni Murchu in that same corner of the country.

The Book of the Cailleach: Stories of the Wise-Woman Healer by Gearoid O Crualaoich is entirely about that evolution. Its annoying to read because its one side of a discussion between real academics one in Ireland (Author) presenting the Traditional point of view the other in Boston (Unnamed Feminist Ethnologists) presenting the rational empirical explanation of Bealoidas. The language is specific to the academic study of Ethnology so its hard to read and we are missing one side of the discussion so we never get the conclusion of the argument... but its a pagan ethnologist native to ireland writing about his field of study so its worth a look.


The myths show that certain gods pursued personal relationships with humans, and that's where I take my cue on that, so to speak. But also, the myths are clear that there were gods and ungods in Ireland, but both were Otherworldly.

What would you say an ungod is? I havent heard that phrase before. The Fomaire in relation to the TdD in The book of invasions or the TdD of Early Ireland to the Fairies of contemporary Ireland...?


I'm not sure I'm making sense, so I'm hoping I've responded to your post in the way that you meant it and we're not talking at cross purposes again...

Im sorry about that Seren sometimes I am just thick and you need to kick me until I understand what youre saying :toofless:

[odubhain]

[/B]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you Searles. That was quite a post! My response to it (apart from the references below) is there was a difference between Theory and Practice.
Take the Derbhine for example - in theory the king or cheiftain was elected by the fine but in practice Ireland was not a democracy however much the idea might appeal to us. Kings are subject to clientship and their overlords choose who succeeds only the top tier of society the Kings of Provinces had anything resembeling a Derbhine election.

Even then it was not likely to be an election, siblings acend to power by murdering or blinding each other and when taking the details of the inauguration into consideration even if a quasi democratic election took place the chosen king had to meet the requirements of his most powerfull sub-kingdoms and the poets or monks in his territory. In that context fosterage with those powerfull groups supercedes family elections, if the sub kingdom rejects the king he cannot be inaugurated at the cultural site and he is in real danger of going to war and trying to reduce the most powerfull people in his territory to keep his position if not his life. Likewise if the king does not meet the fili or monks requirements his equal in Brehon Law (equal in that they are all technically above the law) then there will be no kingship and the monks chosen will likely enough make war on the derbhines chosen king.

[B]

If you check out Kings and High Kings Byrne, F.J. Chapter 1 PP 21 - 23 he references the O'Hagan - O'Neill relationship specifically as overlord and Tanist, he also mentions alot of what I said above... more coherently.

Also Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland Nicholls, K.W. has a chapter devoted to tanistry, succession and Inauguration.

Nuadu,

I think we are talking about two different things though they share certain common aspects. There are the politics of who leads a family and then there are the politics of which family chooses the king of a territory or even Ireland.

Within families, the ties of blood and fosterage are strong. In politics between families and of territories the ideas of fosterage and clientship are even stronger in terms of garnering support for kings.

In all of these things, it's important to know that the families in power would never support a member of another family over one of their own if they could do otherwise. In politics and power this was not always possible so sureties, clientship, bindings, agreements and other alliances come into play. In terms of family matters, however, it is always blood relationships and legal genealogy that determines who is in a position to be the leader and never fosterage or clientship.

Of course, in either power struggle, might and strength also play major roles as to who has the upper hand. O'Hagans never led the O'Neills while O'Neills never led the O'Hagans in family matters, no matter who had the position of kingship or territorial leader through politics and alliances. The two books you suggest look to be good ones in clarifying the roles of families in territorial politics.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

Hi again Searles!


Nuadu,

I think we are talking about two different things though they share certain common aspects. There are the politics of who leads a family and then there are the politics of which family chooses the king of a territory or even Ireland.

That is very possible I seem to do the same thing to Seren.
I apologise if I get things wrong I am not always the sharpest knife in the drawer. :weirdsmil


In all of these things, it's important to know that the families in power would never support a member of another family over one of their own if they could do otherwise. In politics and power this was not always possible so sureties, clientship, bindings, agreements and other alliances come into play. In terms of family matters, however, it is always blood relationships and legal genealogy that determines who is in a position to be the leader and never fosterage or clientship.

Obviously it is human nature to support your own family over others families and considering the fratrecidal race for succession it would be self preservation but it was not family ties codified under the Brehon laws that ensured a kingship it was the amount of people you could muster under the system of clientship and the head of cattle you could claim as your own under that clientship that ensured your position. I think the legal tract is quoted in one of the two refs above there. In that context fosterage decided the election.

I would also make the point that medeival dynasties really jumped those laws. Look at the rise of the O'Neills. By Medeival Ireland they existed in North Leinster and Ulster having originated in Connaught and rather then claim decent from their common ancestors (Niall of the 9 hostages) and rule under that name they claimed decent from more local figures from that line for example the Sil Aedo Slaine who occupied Knowth, the Clan Cholmain and the Cenel Conaill. Look at the rise of the O'Briens a nobody group from Munster not entitled to anything rise through force of arms to become the family that boasts possibly the first consitutional High King.



Of course, in either power struggle, might and strength also play major roles as to who has the upper hand. O'Hagans never led the O'Neills while O'Neills never led the O'Hagans in family matters, no matter who had the position of kingship or territorial leader through politics and alliances.

I might be missing the point if I am I apologise but in the election of the family head is a family matter under the definition of fine in brehon law. The O'Hagans had their leader chosen by their overlord and the O'Neills could not be inaugurated without the O'Hagans say so as the most powerfull Sub-Kingdom in O'Neill territory.

[Seren_]

Thanks for replying Seren :)
So could journeying meditation would reasonably be assumed to be a strong part of CR then given the majority atleast are outside the Trad lands?

I honestly couldn't say. It's something I do, and I know that meditation and contemplation is something other CRs do, but I don't think I've ever really paid much attention to any discussions of how other CRs connect with the gods, if there've been any...I can't remember. It's always been something I've just done, rather than thought about in much detail.

There are so many different approaches to CR, not just the cultures that are focused on, but the different kinds of focus in practice - some concentrate on a hearthy sort of path like I do, centred around home and family, some focus on filidecht, warrior paths, druidry...Each approach and focus might result in varying shades of practice so it's hard to generalise.


What do you think about the Echtra and Imrama? Some People think those journeys in myth are medeival forgeries based on Christian stories and others that they are older pagan stories. One position implies that journeying meditation is traditional and the other is opposed...

I'm of the opinion that while they're clearly Christian in context, they contain elements of pre-Christian belief as a basis from which the tales were built around, kind of a melding of Christian and pre-Christian. Certainly the emphasis of going across the sea for the immrama seems to fit more with a specifically Irish cosmology than a Christian one.

I never really paid much attention when we were studying the echtra, though, except for the Voyage of Bran, but certainly I'd say that the immrama were a very Irish way of accommodating Christian ideas into a more native framework. A large part of it was about taking a peregrinatio (a spiritual journey): for a lot of early Christians this involved going into the desert, but the Church disapproved of this and cracked down on the practice.

The Irish monks couldn't go to the desert so the sea became their spiritual desert instead; they saw it as a form of white martyrdom, giving up everything worldly for the sake of God (though not necessarily in a terminal way...that was red martyrdom, which didn't really happen in Ireland). The Otherworldly associations of the sea in native tradition fitted in with the spiritually transformative aspects that such a journey was supposed to entail. Those elements were probably used as motifs from the native tradition of storytelling rather than a conscious effort to mix Christian and pre-Christian ideas, if you see what I mean. So I'd say they're a good area for study, just like the way the sovereignty goddesses in Ireland have evolved and persisted into modern times, out of a pre-Christian context, but retaining a pre-Christian element at its core.


That is another big difference I have noticed in CR but it is the larger more global issue of Modernist and Post-Modernist philosophies on Traditional societies. Its impossible to ask someone to deconstruct their entire world view and beyond anyones expectations here. The modernist sees tradition as static and counter productive to progression (So dismisses Bealoidas and studies only the oldest Senchas) and the post modernist seeing tradition as static (discounting the Bealoidas as corrupt) tries to reinvent an a long superceeded tradition in the image of his modern life. All 3 ways (including the nativist approach) are rewarding and the post modern is likely to be the more popular of the group so all are valuable.

I see what you're saying, I think, though I'm not sure I agree that tradition is static; its change is inevitable. And it changes from place to place as well, however slightly. The differences in time and place are important, as is seeing the thread of the tradition that remains while the outward practices change.


The Gods in early Senchas are the same as the Good Folk in the Bealoidas, its just the stories about them have evolved with our culture. For example our Sovereign Goddess still holds an important position in Bealoidas Contemporary Irish Society. What began as the Goddess Bui in one corner of Ireland for example over time evolved to Cailleach Bheara who over time became the bean feasa Maire Ni Murchu in that same corner of the country.

The Book of the Cailleach: Stories of the Wise-Woman Healer by Gearoid O Crualaoich is entirely about that evolution. Its annoying to read because its one side of a discussion between real academics one in Ireland (Author) presenting the Traditional point of view the other in Boston (Unnamed Feminist Ethnologists) presenting the rational empirical explanation of Bealoidas. The language is specific to the academic study of Ethnology so its hard to read and we are missing one side of the discussion so we never get the conclusion of the argument... but its a pagan ethnologist native to ireland writing about his field of study so its worth a look.

I have the book and I've dipped into several chapters, though I've not got round to reading it all the way through yet. It's interesting, and gives an interesting approach to the subject, though I'm not keen on the overuse of Teh Big Wurdz. Some of the paragraphs are quite torturous to read but I like that Gaelic and English translations of the tales are given.


What would you say an ungod is? I havent heard that phrase before. The Fomaire in relation to the TdD in The book of invasions or the TdD of Early Ireland to the Fairies of contemporary Ireland...?

The Tuatha Dé Danann are referred to as dé ocus andé in Lebor Gabála Érenn, (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lebor4.html) which is invariably rendered and 'gods and ungods' or 'gods and non-gods' (there may be other instances where they're called such, but I can't remember off the top of my head...):


§56. They demanded battle of kingship of the Fir Bolg. A battle was fought between them, to wit the first battle of Mag Tuired, in which a hundred thousand of the Fir Bolg fell. Thereafter they [the TDD] took the kingship of Ireland. Those are the Tuatha Dea - gods were their men of arts, non-gods their husbandmen. They knew the incantations of druids, and charioteers, and trappers, and cupbearers.

It seems to imply that those of skill were gods, and the rest weren't; some members of the TDD were of greater stature/status than others, but presumably all of them went under the hills together and became collectively known as the aes sidhe. So not all members of the aes sidhe or the TDD are gods, just as not all gods are necessarily members of the TDD either.


Im sorry about that Seren sometimes I am just thick and you need to kick me until I understand what youre saying :toofless:

I don't think you're thick at all ;) But I do think a lot of us on this thread are approaching the same subject at widely differing angles and it can make it difficult to understand what other people are saying when we've probably never considered such a different perspective before. It gets especially problemmatic when our personal views on the subject can be difficult to articulate, and you might notice that we're an opinionated bunch as well...It's certainly making things very thought-provoking :)

[odubhain]

I would also make the point that medeival dynasties really jumped those laws. Look at the rise of the O'Neills. By Medeival Ireland they existed in North Leinster and Ulster having originated in Connaught and rather then claim decent from their common ancestors (Niall of the 9 hostages) and rule under that name they claimed decent from more local figures from that line for example the Sil Aedo Slaine who occupied Knowth, the Clan Cholmain and the Cenel Conaill. Look at the rise of the O'Briens a nobody group from Munster not entitled to anything rise through force of arms to become the family that boasts possibly the first consitutional High King.

My family were lords of Slane and Knowth. Too bad that the O'Neills did not claim to be O'Dubhains. My grandfather made up for it all by marrying one. She made the greatest lemon meringue pies. She also made certain we all heard the tale of the Red Hand. :-)

Searles

[Nuadu]

My family were lords of Slane and Knowth. Too bad that the O'Neills did not claim to be O'Dubhains. My grandfather made up for it all by marrying one. She made the greatest lemon meringue pies. She also made certain we all heard the tale of the Red Hand. :-)

Searles

That Kicks bottom Searles! I dont know anything about the original owners of Knowth and Slaine but I have artwork from the royal sites on my body. I just figured I am from Leinster and people with my family name were kings of the province once so I felt enough of a connection to them to get the work done.

I have so many questions... :boing:
Do you know the tribal name of your family? Do you know the name of their Land Goddess? Do you think the deities associated with Knowth and Slaine in Senchas are accurate? How about the Bealoidas Associations. Dagda's Cauldron and all that...

[Nuadu]

I honestly couldn't say. It's something I do, and I know that meditation and contemplation is something other CRs do, but I don't think I've ever really paid much attention to any discussions of how other CRs connect with the gods, if there've been any...I can't remember. It's always been something I've just done, rather than thought about in much detail.

I suppose that would fall under UPG for reconstructionalists. Ah well if I ever achieve my goal of getting into the Livejournal CR group I'll ask them so many questions about that!!!


There are so many different approaches to CR, not just the cultures that are focused on, but the different kinds of focus in practice - some concentrate on a hearthy sort of path like I do, centred around home and family, some focus on filidecht, warrior paths, druidry...Each approach and focus might result in varying shades of practice so it's hard to generalise.

Ah that is an inspiring statement Seren. There are so many different approaches to studying Irish Culture and how groups should be run according to historical tradition... but history is not subjective or should not be... that LJ post will either get me in or keep me out :hahugh:


certainly I'd say that the immrama were a very Irish way of accommodating Christian ideas into a more native framework.

Thats an interesting point, for something so christianised they dont reflect the dogma of the world chronicle charactoristic of other christianised myths. I hadnt thought of that before. I like the martyrdom references by the way Ive never heard anyone else bring them up. I am a fan of early christianity have you read The Irish Tradition by Robin Flower?


The Tuatha Dé Danann are referred to as dé ocus andé in Lebor Gabála Érenn, (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lebor4.html) which is invariably rendered and 'gods and ungods' or 'gods and non-gods' (there may be other instances where they're called such, but I can't remember off the top of my head...):

Ah ha! Right so what are the ungods?

Would they be the unnamed entities that you can feel commonly walking around more liminal areas?



It seems to imply that those of skill were gods, and the rest weren't; some members of the TDD were of greater stature/status than others, but presumably all of them went under the hills together and became collectively known as the aes sidhe. So not all members of the aes sidhe or the TDD are gods, just as not all gods are necessarily members of the TDD either.

...keep in mind that I am thick here Seren. Is what youre saying there that what once were gods became ungods because their names were forgotten and their duties either became irrelivant as society changed or were taken over by Christianity?