The Witches Craft and Royal Art

[Sesen]

A shiny new subforum and no ones broken it in yet? :lol: I've been thinking about Witchcraft a lot lately and I've got many a question to pose to ye practitioners here...

Alright...Lately I've been pondering over the connections ( possibly in my mind only..hence the thread) between Witchcraft and the Hermetic tradition, also known as the Royal Art. The hermetic art encompasses the practice of magic, contacts with Gods and spirits, steller lore, spagyrics or herbalism, and the transformative processes of alchemy. Much if not all of the witches craft could be found within the hermetic art and vice versa, including symbolism.

So, is it possible or even probable that these two traditions share a common source? Some authors whose work I've read such as Paul Huson, Nigel Jackson, and Mike Howard seem to indicate that such is the case. I'm not nearly as familiar with Witchcraft as I am with Hermetism so I'm seeking thoughts from the Witches view.

[skilly-nilly]

I am not nearly as familiar with the Hermetic tradition as I am with Witchcraft (I actually had to look it up to be sure what you were talking about) so my opinion is pretty opposite to yours.

I would see what I would call 'Ceremonial Magic' and Witchcraft as unconnected. Historically, the common person (not serfs or kerns, but small farmers, fisherfolk, craftspeople and the like) were illiterate and extremely local, that is the average person never went more than 15 miles from where they were born. So they didn't read the Classics nor engage in expensive alchemistical workings, they just lived their lives.

But I think that it is silly to reference the intellectual pursuits of the leisure class as if it was all that was happening. Everyday people had an unimaginably rich corpus of oral folktales, music, and dance available to them as well as enormous botanical and biological knowledge about their surroundings.

To me, Witchcraft references interacting with the OtherWorld by means of what is immediately available. So, do "these two traditions share a common source?" Not imo.

If I read correctly, the Hermetic Tradition stems from Hermes Trismegistus, and so is a type of 'one source greatly expanded' tradition. Witchcraft, imo, is the combined input of all the skilly people, yarb doctors, wisewomen, etc that ever were and their students and so would be more of 'a vast number of sources resulting in Workings' kind of tradition.

That's just how I see it, I have almost no interest in gimatria or alchemy or ceremonial magic (or magick or majic); I prefer a much more organic transformation.

OO, I forgot to mention, 'ye' as a substitution for 'the' is actually incorrect (although I realize you weren't serious in the use), archaic 'the' is actually 'thorn (a no-longer-used letter) e'.
'Ye' is the archaic pronoun for 'plural you' (modern ya'll).
This
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=210246
is correct usage.
Want to know more?
http://www.onlinesocialmarketing.com/brian-cugelman/blog/bring-back-ye.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun)

[Deerwoman]

Hehehe and the joke comes true again - as many different answers as witches in the room...

There were some literate "witches", more likely called cunning folk or wise woman, entering into the 1800s and they highly valued magical texts. Most could only get their hands on one "grimoire" but some became popular such as Long Lost Friend, The Black Pullet, The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses... Much of what is contained in these books is what we would now classify as ceremonial magic and ceremonial magicians who read these texts today may be surprised to find their practices within these "folk magic" books as folk magic is viewed as low magic and ceremonial as "high magic".

So to answer your inquiry Sesen, there is some overlap between the two, but mainly in the past (1800s to early 1900s) with European immigrant practitioners in the United States, and mainly in Pennsylvania, Appalachia, and the Ozarks. I'm with Sybil Leek as she repeats many times in her work The Complete Art of Witchcraft, that there are ceremonial magicians and there are witches and rarely the two do meet. If I wanted to include some ceremonial-based practices in my witchcraft I would currently be a Wiccan and not the folk magic practitioner that I am.

Slainte!

[skilly-nilly]

There were some literate "witches", more likely called cunning folk or wise woman, entering into the 1800s and they highly valued magical texts.

True, that. I was speaking more from mediaeval history.

[Sesen]

I am not nearly as familiar with the Hermetic tradition as I am with Witchcraft (I actually had to look it up to be sure what you were talking about) so my opinion is pretty opposite to yours.

Good.:hahugh: I was hoping for a dialogue to get the marbles rolling in my head and maybe learn a thing or two.


I would see what I would call 'Ceremonial Magic' and Witchcraft as unconnected. Historically, the common person (not serfs or kerns, but small farmers, fisherfolk, craftspeople and the like) were illiterate and extremely local, that is the average person never went more than 15 miles from where they were born. So they didn't read the Classics nor engage in expensive alchemistical workings, they just lived their lives.

Ceremonial magic is only a part of the hermetic tradition, and in my understanding of it not nearly as elaborate as many modern organisations like to make it. It falls in line with the Witches contact with familiar spirits and/or the dead as I see it.

This is actually one place where I saw connections. Alchemy is a craft based teaching. Techniques of the art and spiritual teachings are conveyed through the use of spagyric and metallurgical processes. Many alchemical texts admonish the gold craze of the upper classes, puffers as they called them, and there expensive set ups saying that the materials needed to practice alchemy couldn't be bought but were to be had for free. Also, it was taught that book learning was only important for a proper theory so as to avoid harm, but once understanding was gained through practice or the revelation of a teacher books were useless. To the hermetists nature was the only book worth reading.


To me, Witchcraft references interacting with the OtherWorld by means of what is immediately available.

As I referenced above, this is similar to hermetics. The alchemists often used the phrase 'The Great Work' in regards to what they were doing. The materials needed to undergo this work were found within nature and within the practitioner themselves. Part of the process involved learning to seperate the spirit and body to make contact with the otherworld, no outside materials necessary.


If I read correctly, the Hermetic Tradition stems from Hermes Trismegistus, and so is a type of 'one source greatly expanded' tradition. Witchcraft, imo, is the combined input of all the skilly people, yarb doctors, wisewomen, etc that ever were and their students and so would be more of 'a vast number of sources resulting in Workings' kind of tradition.

Hermes Trismegistus is a mythical figure whom many of the hermetic writers made reference to as the source of their knowledge during times when it wasn't wise to write openly of contact with otherworldy spirits or Gods. The hermetic tradition could be well described as a form of Pagan syncretism. There were specific techniques to be employed with a heavily veiled goal in mind, but it drew upon many sources of the ancient world.



OO, I forgot to mention, 'ye' as a substitution for 'the' is actually incorrect (although I realize you weren't serious in the use), archaic 'the' is actually 'thorn (a no-longer-used letter) e'.
'Ye' is the archaic pronoun for 'plural you' (modern ya'll).

Yes, I wasn't at all serious :lol:..I did mean it in the plural though...as in ya'll...but did not know any of that..thanks :lol:

[Sesen]

Hehehe and the joke comes true again - as many different answers as witches in the room...

There were some literate "witches", more likely called cunning folk or wise woman, entering into the 1800s and they highly valued magical texts. Most could only get their hands on one "grimoire" but some became popular such as Long Lost Friend, The Black Pullet, The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses... Much of what is contained in these books is what we would now classify as ceremonial magic and ceremonial magicians who read these texts today may be surprised to find their practices within these "folk magic" books as folk magic is viewed as low magic and ceremonial as "high magic".

So to answer your inquiry Sesen, there is some overlap between the two, but mainly in the past (1800s to early 1900s) with European immigrant practitioners in the United States, and mainly in Pennsylvania, Appalachia, and the Ozarks. I'm with Sybil Leek as she repeats many times in her work The Complete Art of Witchcraft, that there are ceremonial magicians and there are witches and rarely the two do meet. If I wanted to include some ceremonial-based practices in my witchcraft I would currently be a Wiccan and not the folk magic practitioner that I am.

Slainte!

I'm vaguely familiar with the cunning folk, though I thought they delt more with undoing hexes and such. The idea of 'high' and 'low' magic is part of my curiosity on the subject. Hermetic practices include both. Though my understanding of the terms probably aren't the commonly accepted ones. I'm wondering if Witchcraft is purely folk magic, or is there a higher aim as well? Such as, I've come across the idea of a marriage to the faery/fetch-wife/husband in Witchcraft which seems akin to the alchemical marriage of the king and queen or spirit and matter. Are you familiar with this concept in Witchcraft?

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm of the opinion that hermetic arts and witchcraft do come from common ground: magic. Magic is a pretty broad term and covers a lot of techniques, conflicting philosophies, etc. and easily encompasses both hermetic studies as well as witchcraft.

And when you look at both sets of practices, there is a huge amount of overlap. I do tend to think the difference between the two is that hermetic studies are more scholarly, while witchcraft is more about getting mundane things done.

I disagree with the statement that the overlap between the two as evidenced in texts like "Long Lost Friend" is a relatively recent (circa 1700s-1800s) thing. If we look at other older sources such as "The Greek Magical Papyri In Translation" and "The Black Books of Elverum" there is a pretty clear mixture of the hermetic and witchcraft/ folk magic approaches.

[Sesen]

And when you look at both sets of practices, there is a huge amount of overlap. I do tend to think the difference between the two is that hermetic studies are more scholarly, while witchcraft is more about getting mundane things done.


This is the impression I got from a peripheral study of Witchcraft. It seems some what shamanic in it's approach towards magic as meeting the immediate concerns of the practitioner and those within the witches range of influence. Part of the reason I started this thread, and the reason I used the Hermetic Tradition as point of comparison, is to see if the craft may hold other goals and mysteries than a cursory study would reveal. The hermetist seeks the stone of the wise, or reattainment of the primordial state. Sometimes this is considered initiation into the lesser mysteries, a term borrowed from the Pagan mystery religions of the old world.

In my studies I keep coming across promethean or luciferian themes in Witchcraft literature that have much in common with hermetics. I'm starting to think though that this has more to do with these particular authors and their personal influences. It seems so prevelant in modern manifestations of the craft though that I thought there may be something to it.

[Ben Gruagach]

This is the impression I got from a peripheral study of Witchcraft. It seems some what shamanic in it's approach towards magic as meeting the immediate concerns of the practitioner and those within the witches range of influence. Part of the reason I started this thread, and the reason I used the Hermetic Tradition as point of comparison, is to see if the craft may hold other goals and mysteries than a cursory study would reveal. The hermetist seeks the stone of the wise, or reattainment of the primordial state. Sometimes this is considered initiation into the lesser mysteries, a term borrowed from the Pagan mystery religions of the old world.

In my studies I keep coming across promethean or luciferian themes in Witchcraft literature that have much in common with hermetics. I'm starting to think though that this has more to do with these particular authors and their personal influences. It seems so prevelant in modern manifestations of the craft though that I thought there may be something to it.


What you are seeing is very likely hermetic influences that have been becoming more dominant in modern witchcraft, as a result of modern witches drawing from hermetic sources.

I'm not sure that there was really such a thing as "organized" witchcraft (i.e. denominations or systems that extended beyond a single coven or single identifiable teacher) prior to Gerald Gardner. If there was I'd love to see the evidence of it.

[Deerwoman]

Though my understanding of the terms probably aren't the commonly accepted ones. I'm wondering if Witchcraft is purely folk magic, or is there a higher aim as well? Such as, I've come across the idea of a marriage to the faery/fetch-wife/husband in Witchcraft which seems akin to the alchemical marriage of the king and queen or spirit and matter. Are you familiar with this concept in Witchcraft?
I'm familiar with the "marriage" to the fetch, but not the alchemical version.

To answer your other question, in my personal craft it's pretty much just folk-magic, with the "high" in "high magic" not referring to a "higher aim" but instead to a more ceremonial ritual style using full rituals with spells full of invocations and correspondences in order to perform magic. In my folk-magic I simply do the magic - I may choose certain times of the day, or certain ingredients, but it's not elaborate by any means.


I disagree with the statement that the overlap between the two as evidenced in texts like "Long Lost Friend" is a relatively recent (circa 1700s-1800s) thing. If we look at other older sources such as "The Greek Magical Papyri In Translation" and "The Black Books of Elverum" there is a pretty clear mixture of the hermetic and witchcraft/ folk magic approaches.
Perhaps "shamans" and "magicians" have been sharing practices and knowledge since their first coexistance? The more modern examples are the only ones I know of that can be proven. Ancient Greek, Roman, and Egyptian magic was extremely complex and is at the root of many magical systems - but are these ancient forms of magic defined as folk magic, or due to their complexity are they more ceremonial? I have a feeling the two coexisted and sometimes crossed boundaries during these times - folk magic being the practice of the poor or peasantry, and higher magic forms being the practice of the upper classes or nobility.

[Lunacie]

I suspect that one of the main differences would be that the well-off were able to afford special tools and spell components while the poorer folk used local natural ingredients and tools.