Going deeper with the Charge of the Goddess

[Zephii]

As part of my IRP, which is about exploring the differences between Wicca and Christianity in an attempt to prove that there isn't a basis for ongoing conflict between the two religions, I'm looking into questions that discredit BOTH religions and then offering the deffense. -It's challenging!

So this is the attack I'm trying to answer:
The Goddess can not love or be lovedOne of the beliefs of Paganism is that the Goddess is not separate from Her creation in any way, shape, or form. The Goddess is everything; everything is the Goddess. The power of the Goddess is in all of us, all magic does is call and direct that power.
The problem with this is: if the Goddess is in us, if the Goddess IS us for all practical purposes, it is impossible to have a relationship with Her.
Love is a relational concept. To love someone, there has to be two aspects- the person who loves and the person to be loved. If the Goddess is in all of creation, and not separate from it, then to claim She loves me is the same as claiming a rock loves me, or a tree loves me, or my foot loves me. None of them can have a relationship with me. None of them can love me back.
Starhawk wrote in “The Spiral Dance” that to see the Goddess, look at the person next to you.
The Charge of The Goddess states that “If that which you seek you find not within yourself, you will never find it without”.


And this is my answer so far:
It is true that some Wiccans believe that we are all divinity, and this is a valid argument against that. Not all Wiccans take it quite so literally however.
Another way to view this concept is that the Goddess is within us in the same way that our parents and ancestors are within us. We are not our parents, but we share their blood. We are not the Goddess but our souls originally came from “The All” (the God and Goddess combined), so we have part of her inside of us. Everything in nature can be said to carry her energy in the same way. The tree outside my window isn’t the Goddess, but it is a part of her.
But just as our parents are separate from us, so is the Goddess. We don’t have all of her inside us – just a tiny little bit.

The bit I'm stuck on is the quote from the Charge of the Goddess. For my own spiritual development, I'd like to be able to fully understand and be able to explain what is meant by "for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without"
Does this infact mean that every person is the Goddess? I don't feel that this is what it's actually saying - but I can't explain it to the contary either!
I'm also wondering if there's a connection there with the belief that Love is the "Law" and the "mystery" of the Goddess. It is said that to love another person you need to be able to love yourself - you need to find something in yourself before you can truly connect to someone else... Could the Charge of the Goddess be alluding to this concept or something similar?


I'd really appreciate your thoughts on the matter, as well as any agreements or disagreements with the answer I'm giving to the "attack", seeming I'm representing Wicca when I'm defending it!

Bright Blessings,
~Miriam

[Citana]

the best way to answer the question you pose regarding the charge of the goddess, is to meditate on the question. You will find it.

[Zephii]

True, but seeming I'm speaking on behalf of Wicca, not just myself it's nice to get other's opinions as well.

[Louisvillian]

The thing with Wicca is that there is no set theology. So, it really is an individual thing whether the pantheistic aspects are emphasised more.
Personally, I'm more of a hard polytheist, so I do see the many deities as individual beings. Though I do see the gods as having an essence that emanates throughout the universe, and all life, I don't see it as an active or conscious entity unto itself.

[Astara Seague]

the best way to answer the question you pose regarding the charge of the goddess, is to meditate on the question. You will find it.



The thing with Wicca is that there is no set theology. So, it really is an individual thing whether the pantheistic aspects are emphasised more.
.



I agree with these
you must do what works best for you and dont put your trust in everything you read or hear
{Gods I sound like a broken record}

[cydira]

As part of my IRP, which is about exploring the differences between Wicca and Christianity in an attempt to prove that there isn't a basis for ongoing conflict between the two religions, I'm looking into questions that discredit BOTH religions and then offering the deffense. -It's challenging!


Wow! Boy does this bring up memories of the Religion 101 class that I took freshman year! Good luck with your approach on this topic, it sounds interesting.



So this is the attack I'm trying to answer:
The Goddess can not love or be lovedOne of the beliefs of Paganism is that the Goddess is not separate from Her creation in any way, shape, or form. The Goddess is everything; everything is the Goddess. The power of the Goddess is in all of us, all magic does is call and direct that power.
The problem with this is: if the Goddess is in us, if the Goddess IS us for all practical purposes, it is impossible to have a relationship with Her.
Love is a relational concept. To love someone, there has to be two aspects- the person who loves and the person to be loved. If the Goddess is in all of creation, and not separate from it, then to claim She loves me is the same as claiming a rock loves me, or a tree loves me, or my foot loves me. None of them can have a relationship with me. None of them can love me back.
Starhawk wrote in “The Spiral Dance” that to see the Goddess, look at the person next to you.
The Charge of The Goddess states that “If that which you seek you find not within yourself, you will never find it without”.


One thing that this attack fails to consider is one very simple thing: one can have a relationship with themselves. As such, it is possible to have a loving relationship with themselves and thereby have a relationship with the Goddess.

This attack also fails to understand the difference between theologies that are immanent, transcendent, and those which combine the two. The argument can't decide if the Goddess is immanent or transcendent and will not even consider the possibility of the Goddess possessing both traits. This goes back to the question of what are the traits that define divinity. That, however, makes for an entirely different discussion.

Generally, in mainstream and traditional Wicca, the theology is such that the Goddess is immanent and transcendent, like the Christian God. Many people, however, become highly uncomfortable when they're reminded that Christian theology describes their God as immanent and transcendent because they're most familiar with the transcendent concept. You may want to tread lightly with this concept because it may draw a... very strong reaction.



And this is my answer so far:
It is true that some Wiccans believe that we are all divinity, and this is a valid argument against that. Not all Wiccans take it quite so literally however.
Another way to view this concept is that the Goddess is within us in the same way that our parents and ancestors are within us. We are not our parents, but we share their blood. We are not the Goddess but our souls originally came from “The All” (the God and Goddess combined), so we have part of her inside of us. Everything in nature can be said to carry her energy in the same way. The tree outside my window isn’t the Goddess, but it is a part of her.
But just as our parents are separate from us, so is the Goddess. We don’t have all of her inside us – just a tiny little bit.

The bit I'm stuck on is the quote from the Charge of the Goddess. For my own spiritual development, I'd like to be able to fully understand and be able to explain what is meant by "for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without"
Does this infact mean that every person is the Goddess? I don't feel that this is what it's actually saying - but I can't explain it to the contary either!
I'm also wondering if there's a connection there with the belief that Love is the "Law" and the "mystery" of the Goddess. It is said that to love another person you need to be able to love yourself - you need to find something in yourself before you can truly connect to someone else... Could the Charge of the Goddess be alluding to this concept or something similar?


I would also advise as the others are that you should meditate more upon the quoted section of the Charge of the Goddess. I also would advise that you spend some time meditating upon the concept of love.

Here's a few questions that might make for a good jumping off point:

What is love? Is love conditional? Is love and lust the same thing? How are they alike and/or different? Is the love between parents and their children different from the love of children for their parents? Is the love between lovers different from the love between friends? Is it different from the love between family? Etc.



I'd really appreciate your thoughts on the matter, as well as any agreements or disagreements with the answer I'm giving to the "attack", seeming I'm representing Wicca when I'm defending it!

Bright Blessings,
~Miriam

I hope that I've helped out some. I wish you the best of luck. This is not an easy task to work on but you'll find yourself the better for it at the completion.

[Deerwoman]

"for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without"
I am not Wiccan, but this phrase has always rung true for me and I find it reflected in other theologies and philosophies. It means that no matter what spiritual advancement or growth you are searching and striving for, you cannot find it anywhere other than within your own mind and abilities. No one can magically make you into a witch or follower of the Old Religion - you must do this yourself through belief, learning, and actual practice. No one can find faith in the old Gods for you, you must find belief and faith within yourself. A hundred people can tell you they love you, but you will not feel loved or be able to fully give love to others until you accept and love yourself. I can go on and on - I hope these analogies made sense!

[Son of Goddess]

So this is the attack I'm trying to answer:
The Goddess can not love or be lovedOne of the beliefs of Paganism is that the Goddess is not separate from Her creation in any way, shape, or form. The Goddess is everything; everything is the Goddess. The power of the Goddess is in all of us, all magic does is call and direct that power.
The problem with this is: if the Goddess is in us, if the Goddess IS us for all practical purposes, it is impossible to have a relationship with Her.
Love is a relational concept. To love someone, there has to be two aspects- the person who loves and the person to be loved. If the Goddess is in all of creation, and not separate from it, then to claim She loves me is the same as claiming a rock loves me, or a tree loves me, or my foot loves me. None of them can have a relationship with me. None of them can love me back.
Starhawk wrote in “The Spiral Dance” that to see the Goddess, look at the person next to you.
The Charge of The Goddess states that “If that which you seek you find not within yourself, you will never find it without”.



WOW! That brings back memories of my time over at the Ex Witch Ministries Forum...holy crap that was ages ago... haha!

The part about seeing the Goddess in the person beside you is not saying that the person beside you is the Goddess, but rather is a reflection of the Goddess, just as a work of art is a reflection of the artist who created it.

When a craftsman puts his name on all his works, his works are not him, but they certainly contain a small portion of him, of his creativity, his time, blood, sweat and tears that went into thinking that item up and bringing it into reality. It contains his originality.



The bit I'm stuck on is the quote from the Charge of the Goddess. For my own spiritual development, I'd like to be able to fully understand and be able to explain what is meant by "[/COLOR][FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=#333399]for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without"
[COLOR=Black]Does this infact mean that every person is the Goddess? I don't feel that this is what it's actually saying - but I can't explain it to the contary either!

This means that divinity is ever present within us as well as outside of us; immanent divinity. Does this mean that every person is the Goddess? No not at all, but it does mean that every person contains within them a spark of the Goddess, a minute piece, a small portion; it is the soul. All it means is that every person is connected to the Goddess, who is transcendent per my understanding.

It is also reflective of 'as above, so below'.

Of course, various theologies pending....


I'm also wondering if there's a connection there with the belief that Love is the "Law" and the "mystery" of the Goddess. It is said that to love another person you need to be able to love yourself - you need to find something in yourself before you can truly connect to someone else... Could the Charge of the Goddess be alluding to this concept or something similar?

Certainly, to love others one must love thyself for if you can't find something to love about yourself, how can you expect others to? To love yourself is to acknowledge the light inside yourself and honor it, it is through that light that one connects to the Goddess who is the source of that light. Love is the bond created between the Goddess and the individual, just as love is the bond created between two "soulmates".

[BrightStar]

Hi!
One thing you might look at is various interpretations of the 'Holy Spirit',part of the xtian trinity.
The Holy Spirit is God
If the Holy Spirit lives within,and is part of,every believer.Then isn't god inside the believer,one with them.So,isn't every person God?

Just thinking out loud

Good luck
BrightStar

[Louisvillian]

Then isn't god inside the believer,one with them. So,isn't every person God?

Two very different things. Trinitarianism makes a big difference between deity existing in the hearts of all believers, and everyone being a part of deity. It's not really as pantheistic as unacquainted observers make it out to be.

[Son of Goddess]

I agree with Louisvillian.

The idea behind the Holy Spirit is that is descends into the individual at various times; baptism, confirmation, ordination, during mass, consumption of the eucharist, etc... Just as the Holy Spirit enters the individual, it can, if provoked by impiety, leave the individual as well. It is ultimately a temporary gift but it can be continuous if the person remains pious. In this belief, every person can live without the Holy Spirit; heretics, heathens, pagans, non-Christians, you name it do every breathing moment.

With immanent divinity, the idea is that EVERY person has within them a spark of divinity that is intimately bound to the greater divinity (be it a Goddess, a God or a Pantheon, etc...). In this instance, the individual physically cannot live/exist without that spark.

[Fiamma]

Two very different things. Trinitarianism makes a big difference between deity existing in the hearts of all believers, and everyone being a part of deity. It's not really as pantheistic as unacquainted observers make it out to be.

Rather panentheistic in a way, but still not quite...

[Dumunzi]

Are you giving preference to the Goddess over the God? Or is this just one facet of what your discussing?

[Snapdragon]

The usual arguments are about beliefs...religious beliefs and their logical (and illogical) formulation being theology. Many Wiccans will say "I believe x, y, z..." and be satisfied with this. Hopefully, most of us W's will remember to point out that we do not all "believe" the same things, and that's not a problem. (We do seem to have a few, residual traces of fundamentalism still showing us the ill effects of the place most of us fled from (ahem), but "this is the one and only way" is not something you find a lot in Wicca. Thank the gods.)

I'd like to offer you the thought that religion--and Wicca in particular--need not be and in fact is not based upon belief for all of us. We may pray to specific goddesses/gods, may respond to and employ certain imagery, incantations, and ritual practices...but all of this may flow from something other than belief. It was not belief that drew me to Wicca, nor is it what constitutes its heart. It is a matter of concern, which manifests in living. In my own understanding, a religion that is not lived is effectively meaningless. Meaning is not "in one's head," but in the world--which is where the sacred is sought, known, and venerated.

This business about whether the goddess is all, etc., strikes me as a bit "heady," inasmuch as what matters is how we do or do not have intimations of the sacred in our lives. If we did not, then of what matter would religion be? Dianne Sylvan may state in her fine book The Circle Within, that "we are our gods," and this of course expresses that the sacred is in no sense "somewhere else," some realm apart from the existence we all share. What this does not speak to, though, is the very important fact that our experiences widely vary...and somehow, we have to account for this. Thus, we use expressions such as "the gods spoke to me" or "Her breath was upon me," to indicate that at times and in a multiplicity of ways, the sacred seems "closer," more real and meaningful, than at other times. The gods are never away from us, but it is not a matter of simple identity, either...because the experience of estrangement, of not being in the flow of the divine, is part of the experience of anyone who has a real spiritual life.

I hope all this doesn't sound "authoritative"--my intent is just to pour out some things for your consideration.

[~Nixie]

This is my own personal understanding of it-

We are expressions of the Goddess, she flows through everything, and IS everything, yet she is the Spirit in everything, physical energy is more of an expression of that Spirit, more subject to change and "imperfections" etc. She generates everything, and moves through everything, but what I currently call the "Source" does not originate in the physical universe, rather it transcends it. While I have a relationship with the world around me, and the world within, this relationship connects me with the Spirit in it, or behind it, that ultimently isn't dependent on us, rather we are dependent on it. I suppose some may call it the "life force".

I'm not really sure if that's pantheistic, or what. I still see everything as being Divine.

[Darth Brooks]

So for Wiccans who believe the Goddess is everything, what is the God? The male side of everything? Or something else? Just curious.

[~Nixie]

Darth, I'm not Wiccan but I have many things in common with it, and I am only speaking for myself but...

The name "Goddess" to me implies God and Goddess since the word "Goddess" contains "God" but in the end they are only ways to explain the Divine, may it be male or female, neither, or just a way to explain our connection with it. Sometimes I like saying Goddess instead of God because used in the context as most Americans know it, God implies a sort of Yahweh type deity, while Goddess tends to imply something closer to my own beliefs. That being said, I don't think the universe is any more male or female, it is equal elements of both, and it is One.

[Darth Brooks]

Darth, I'm not Wiccan but I have many things in common with it, and I am only speaking for myself but...

The name "Goddess" to me implies God and Goddess since the word "Goddess" contains "God" but in the end they are only ways to explain the Divine, may it be male or female, neither, or just a way to explain our connection with it. Sometimes I like saying Goddess instead of God because used in the context as most Americans know it, God implies a sort of Yahweh type deity, while Goddess tends to imply something closer to my own beliefs. That being said, I don't think the universe is any more male or female, it is equal elements of both, and it is One.

Thanks for explaining your view on it, I find this very helpful. :)

[~Nixie]

No problem :)

[brymble]

May I ask what kind of screwed up, emotionally damaged individual suggested that you "can't" have a relationship with yourself???

As a hypnotist I can verify that not only does everyone inherently have a relationship to self (wether they choose to acknowledge it or not) they actually have several, some healthier than others.

Any mental health or "helping" professional, be they "traditional" or "alternative", from a high-ranking psychiatrist to a part-time pastoral youth counselor, can verify we all have relationships with ourselves, and need to maintain them in a healthy manner. Mental or emotional illness and "problem states" of consciousness happen when that relationship gets hugged up, or denied.

BTW, thank you. It's posts like these that renew my passion for hypnosis and empathic consulting. My practice has been on the back burner to concentrate on parenting following a crisis, and adjusting my own relationship to self.

"Can't have a relationship with yourself!" Wow. I'm sorry, but I don't think your opponent's argument is even valid, let alone relevant. Never mind the Charge, if you can't shoot that down quoting their own religious texts, you can counter it with basic psychology.



But since the thread is about the Charge, have you read Ceisiwr Serith's source analysis?

I could probably write volumes about my own experience and interpretation of the line in question alone, from both a religious-spiritual, and mental/emotional healing/hypnosis view. Talk about accessing a resource state! Maybe later, though, because my head is still exploding from the medical cannabis/brain cancer thread.

[roguetamlin]

True, but seeming I'm speaking on behalf of Wicca, not just myself it's nice to get other's opinions as well.

Apply the Charge of the Goddess to Wicca.

[roguetamlin]

I am not Wiccan, but this phrase has always rung true for me and I find it reflected in other theologies and philosophies. It means that no matter what spiritual advancement or growth you are searching and striving for, you cannot find it anywhere other than within your own mind and abilities. No one can magically make you into a witch or follower of the Old Religion - you must do this yourself through belief, learning, and actual practice. No one can find faith in the old Gods for you, you must find belief and faith within yourself. A hundred people can tell you they love you, but you will not feel loved or be able to fully give love to others until you accept and love yourself. I can go on and on - I hope these analogies made sense!


Well said! :thumbsup: