What is a Traditional Witchcraft?

[Meisopomenos]

This post will only speak for my own personal beliefs/convictions as a Traditional Witch (Trad Witch from here on in the post)... However, I will try to generalize as much as possible to create some form of flexibility for those who have opposing/differing viewpoints.

Trad Witchcraft as referred to in this post is seen as Common Traditional Witchcraft or "CTW" instead of British Traditional Witchcraft or "BTW". Common Trad Witchcraft is whatever works for the individual Witch with roots in many sources/practices.

Trad Witchcraft is a personal path that may be religious, spiritual, both, or atheistic. It can be passed down from generation to generation but it can also be a path that is stumbled upon that resonates within the spirit of the Witch. To follow a Trad Witchcraft path is not a decision made overnight but a decision based on years of studying, reflecting, soul-searching, and practicing in some way, shape, or form.

Trad Witchcraft is not Wicca. There is Traditional Wicca (which is neither solitary nor eclectic) that may have bits and pieces in common with Trad Witchcraft, but not much from my understanding of things.

Below are just some outlined common beliefs that Trad Witches may share, even if the methods or interpretations vary from Witch to Witch. In Trad Witchcraft, there is really no right or wrong answer/belief. It is an individualized path free from rules and regulations except the mores/ethics of the individual Witch.



Trad Witches may or may not believe in/associate with any form of Deity or Cosmic Power. However, almost all Trad Witches honor/revere Nature especially since seeing oneself as Nature is therefore finding Deity within the individual Self. [As for myself, I am very into Goddess-worship, however that is just me and works for me.]


Trad Witches do not follow an established set of rules or regulations but develop their own mores/ethics and take responsibility for their actions and the consequences thereof.


Many Trad Witches may or may not get tired of hearing "Blessed Be", "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust", and other Wicca colloquialisms. Read the next bullet as to why this may be so.


Trad Witches are not all "love and light". We, in fact, maintain the balance of Light and Dark, Positive and Negative, and work with equality in healings/cures and hexings/curses. Although, it all depends on one's mores/ethics to determine just how far one would go to achieve what is desired.


Trad Witches do not call the quarters or watchtowers and cast circles as done in Wicca, but may call in the directions or elements to guide and enhance the workings. Some call this the Compass Round, Treading the Mill, Marking, etc. The Trad Witch view of circles is for protection or to build up energies for release.


Some Trad Witches do not celebrate the Pagan holidays (Sabbats, Quarter and Cross Quarter celebrations) but may observe the holidays that they choose to observe instead. The same goes with Esbats, or, Lunar celebrations.


Trad Witches believe in the Spirit realm and communicate between both the Spirit realm and the Human realm. Beliefs of afterlife vary between Witches.


Trad Witches may or may not choose to incorporate various other religious/belief systems or practices (i.e. Christianity, Hoodoo, Voodoo, Buddhism, New Age, Spiritualism, Occultism, etc.).


Many Trad Witches rely on the power of Self to achieve their desire. Some may use tools of some sort to aid concentration and focus, others may not. One of the biggest things one will hear a Trad Witch say is that one must know themselves. The Self is the greatest tool/weapon that the Witch has and it comprises of the will, intent, mind, body, and spirit of the Witch.


These are just some of the generalized, basic beliefs of Traditional Witches. Again, all of these are from my experiences as a Trad Witch and is not meant to be a comprehensive self-help to Trad Witchcraft.

Hope you enjoyed getting to know a bit about what Traditional Witchcraft, or Common Traditional Witchraft, really is. :)

[Meisopomenos]

Also, just to make note...

The Trad Witches that I know enjoy the movies "Practical Magic" and "Hocus Pocus". It's entertainment and fictional, but relates to Traditional Witchcraft more than other movies... This isn't really pertinent to the thread, but just thought of it and thought it may give a better idea of movies that are more related to Trad Witchcraft.

[green aventurine]

Thanks for sharing that with us. I've not come across the term common traditional witchcraft before. Does this have more of an emphasis on hedge-riding and less of an emphasis on local herblore than British traditional witchcraft?

[Carri]

So this would include the folk groups like Appalachian folk magic, Pennsylvania Dutch and Ozark folk magic? Or am I mistaken?

[Meisopomenos]

Thanks for sharing that with us. I've not come across the term common traditional witchcraft before. Does this have more of an emphasis on hedge-riding and less of an emphasis on local herblore than British traditional witchcraft?

Actually, local herblore is very dominant as well (especially for those using Hoodoo), but for some TW's (Trad Witches) the herb may speak to them and give them a different definition of how they want to be used by their energies. There is also a LOT of hedge-riding but is done in each one's own unique individual way.

I am not BTW so I cannot speak because I don't fully know what they believe (although they are seen as TW's as well...) From what I do know, BTW is an initiatory form of Trad Witchcraft and is hierarchically structured and very secretive.

CTW is more of a self-developed path and practice (not always religious) that steps outside the bounds of Wicca and tends to focus on the development of Self and the power that comes with the knowledge of self and the understanding of balance without rules or regulations outside of the Witch's personal convictions and the level of secrecy is up to the Witch alone. Those who have been taught by family, however, will have much secrecy because it is a hereditary bond and can only be revealed to other family members or those who the Trad Witch sees fit to welcome to some or all of their family beliefs. (Yes, no "harm none" or "three-fold law" in Trad Craft!)

I hope I didn't run in circles or become redundant. Hopefully that answers your question.

[Meisopomenos]

So this would include the folk groups like Appalachian folk magic, Pennsylvania Dutch and Ozark folk magic? Or am I mistaken?

Nope, you're correct. :)

[green aventurine]

Thanks for your reply. It did answer my question well and a couple of others that I had. I should probably say that I am neither Wiccan nor BTW myself although I have found both these areas of interest and now CTW as well. If I've understood you right, then it would be possible for a (non-wiccan) trad witch to live in Britain and be CTW rather than have to follow or be classified as BTW?

[Meisopomenos]

Thanks for your reply. It did answer my question well and a couple of others that I had. I should probably say that I am neither Wiccan nor BTW myself although I have found both these areas of interest and now CTW as well. If I've understood you right, then it would be possible for a (non-wiccan) trad witch to live in Britain and be CTW rather than have to follow or be classified as BTW?

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, a Witch (CTW) can live anywhere and incorporate local and/or non-local practices, beliefs, and/or religions. Matter of fact, you can even incorporate Wicca into a Trad Craft format. (Although, I have a hard time swallowing that but, it's possible just like being a Christian with Trad Witch practices/beliefs.)

[green aventurine]

That's interesting. CTW seems to me like core traditional witchcraft where the word 'core' would be used in the same way as it is used in the term 'core shamanism' (I haven't read Michael Harner myself but I'm guessing people like Leo Rutherford and Alberto Villoldo would be in a similar vein who I have read).



Matter of fact, you can even incorporate Wicca into a Trad Craft format. (Although, I have a hard time swallowing that but, it's possible just like being a Christian with Trad Witch practices/beliefs.)

Yes, it crossed my mind that technically you could incorporate Wicca (or even BTW, perhaps). I personally like the tantric side of Wicca but not so much the ethics or the idea of drawing a circle and calling everything into it. I'd be interested to see how people would do it.

[Philosophia]

I know I'm going to get blasted for this but the explanation seems too vague. What makes traditional witchcraft different from other styles of witchcraft?

[Meisopomenos]

Phil...

I've tried explaining it before to you, but when you state that I just really don't know what you are asking. Your questions are vague and I just cannot seem to answer them.

Maybe I should ask you why YOUR style of witchcraft is different from others?

Maybe then I could understand exactly why you are asking that question...

I could just get aggravated with that question since I've heard it, I don't know how many times now... But in all seriousness, what is it that you don't get with the explanations that you have been given? Why are you asking that question?

If you ask me a specific question, I will give you (or try to find you) a specific answer...

[Philosophia]

Phil...

I've tried explaining it before to you, but when you state that I just really don't know what you are asking. Your questions are vague and I just cannot seem to answer them.

I never saw that answer so I do apologize. My question really isn't vague since it pertains to what you believe traditional witchcraft is.


Maybe I should ask you why YOUR style of witchcraft is different from others?

But I don't put my style of witchcraft under the heading of traditional witchcraft, even though, by your definition, it could be.


Maybe then I could understand exactly why you are asking that question...

I thought it was obvious why I was asking the question. :huh:


I could just get aggravated with that question since I've heard it, I don't know how many times now... But in all seriousness, what is it that you don't get with the explanations that you have been given? Why are you asking that question?

I've only asked twice (and this was a second time). You've only given me one explanation. The reason I'm asking the question is because your definition of traditional witchcraft is too vague.


If you ask me a specific question, I will give you (or try to find you) a specific answer...


Okay, I'll try asking again, even though I thought I was being specific enough. What makes traditional witchcraft different than other witchcraft paths?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I some what agree with Philosophia on this one. When I read your defination I see more of a 20th century catch all phrase than what traditional witchcraft is from my experience. The broad stroke of covering things seems just that to me, a broad brush.



Trad Witches may or may not believe in/associate with any form of Deity or Cosmic Power. However, almost all Trad Witches honor/revere Nature especially since seeing oneself as Nature is therefore finding Deity within the individual Self. [As for myself, I am very into Goddess-worship, however that is just me and works for me.]



To some degree I agree with this but dispute the notion that almost all trad witches honor or revere nature. Nature is more often than not the canvas upon which the trad witch gathers the componets of thier craft. It is not honored nor revered only attempted to be understood and feel the ebb and flow of its cycles. It is a cycle of understanding and knowning the relationship of all componets of it.

What you fail to state is that most trad witch's define their morals and religious beliefs based upon the social norms of thier area of influence. The PowWow of Penn is based upon those social and religious norms, the Applachian Witch is based upon those beliefs and influences. The Blue Ridge folk witches are heavly influenced by the Christian influences also. Many to include or be built around a Christian religious foundation.

Parts of the lore actually passed into some of the more remote facets of Christain religions and the ways they are practiced in the mountains and hollows.



Trad Witches are not all "love and light". We, in fact, maintain the balance of Light and Dark, Positive and Negative, and work with equality in healings/cures and hexings/curses. Although, it all depends on one's mores/ethics to determine just how far one would go to achieve what is desired.



Now this one I do agree with.



Trad Witches do not call the quarters or watchtowers and cast circles as done in Wicca, but may call in the directions or elements to guide and enhance the workings. Some call this the Compass Round, Treading the Mill, Marking, etc. The Trad Witch view of circles is for protection or to build up energies for release.


That is another broad brush statement. Most of the Blue Ridge mountain witch's I know do not do any of that. Most of the Appalachain witches I have spoken to also do not do any of that. The PowWow does something different based upon the strong biblical influence.

Most do no even acknowledge the notion of circles of protection. Mosty of your statement actually seem's to be reflective of the "Modern" pagan view of what they do.

Heck most that I am aware of only do charms and wards. Very few do or even understand the notion of high magics. Yet, the herb lore and green or kitchen witch facets are far above the average.


Some Trad Witches do not celebrate the Pagan holidays (Sabbats, Quarter and Cross Quarter celebrations) but may observe the holidays that they choose to observe instead. The same goes with Esbats, or, Lunar celebrations.

Again, another modern pagan notion of what they do. Most I am familiar with acknowledge none of the so called pagan holidays as we know them today. Many acknowledge the old mountain festivals or local holidays and traditions that have been passed down through the years. Some do acknowledge the notion of the full moon and its influence but that is from a natural association not so called pagan perspectives.


Trad Witches believe in the Spirit realm and communicate between both the Spirit realm and the Human realm. Beliefs of afterlife vary between Witches


Some do, some don't. Many of the one's I know wouldn't be caught dead speaking to the dead. Other's will not do it them selves but go to a person that is a spirit keeper or such to communicate with the deceased.

After life is often driven by the religious association they have.


Trad Witches may or may not choose to incorporate various other religious/belief systems or practices (i.e. Christianity, Hoodoo, Voodoo, Buddhism, New Age, Spiritualism, Occultism, etc.).



Again a modern notion of what traditional is. The trad I was raised under would only include things from Christianity if any. The other items are at best new notion concepts.

In my family we have water witches, we have spirit keepers, we have the old wise woman. Yet none of them would ever consider or even know what most of those other things were or are.

I probally have more exposure to them than any one else in my family. Yet, as a Green Witch I do not incorporate any of them into my practive. As a follower of a Shamanic notion I do not do it either.

With regard to occultism, well occult means things hidden so that I suppose I do.



Many Trad Witches rely on the power of Self to achieve their desire. Some may use tools of some sort to aid concentration and focus, others may not. One of the biggest things one will hear a Trad Witch say is that one must know themselves. The Self is the greatest tool/weapon that the Witch has and it comprises of the will, intent, mind, body, and spirit of the Witch.



Again a yes and no answer. Depends on the function of the particular witch calling. As a brewer of spells and potions the power of self is nothing it is all in the knowledge of lore and herbs. As a water witch, again power of self is only important to the ability of the witch to feel and touch the energy of what they seek.

Sorry but your traditional witchcraft is not what I know and was raised around in the mountains. It is not what I was taught by my relatives or things I was exposed to by various occult groups and other religious traditions.

Perhaps a traditional view of modern notion of what a traditional witch is but not one that has been handed down through the family lines or lore of the mountain's and farm lands.

Not to say it is wrong for you but to my understanding it is incorrect, at least in title concept anyway.

[Meisopomenos]

Again, my definition was not meant to be a guideline for all Trad Witches... Those were just some basic beliefs as I have known and seen among the Trad Witches I have been around. Also, the Trad Witches I have been around do tend to have a modern aspect to their Craft and use whatever work for them.

With your post, it is proof of just why I could only make such a "broad" or "vague" statement/post. There are so many forms of Trad Craft, but the one I have been stating mostly refers to Common Traditional Witchcraft, the way it is through my eyes...

Again, the post wasn't meant to sum up everything.

Also, I appreciate your post MonSno_LeeDra... But please don't think that my post was meant to define all Trad Witches, just the ones I have been exposed to and the path that I follow. It just barely skims the complex surface of Trad Craft.

[Meisopomenos]

What makes traditional witchcraft different than other witchcraft paths?

In lieu of MonSno_LeeDra's post...

How about letting other members help define Trad Craft the way they see it through their eyes? I can only skim the surface and my perspective is, as you say, "vague." There are so many forms of Trad Craft and my post only skims the surface and even then, it is limited to what I have seen, studied, and done.

[Deerwoman]

For me personally what sets TW apart is that the practitioners base their practices in the old lores - chants, incantations, ballads, superstitions, collections of oral lore, documented witchcraft practices and rituals... Whereas many TW witches see the Wiccans and Neopagans as practicing ceremonial-based lore as well as modern-based lore and practices - not necessarily fakelore, but rituals and beliefs stemming from modern day. Much of what we practice is from the Middle Ages and later, but many TW's do incorporate older traditions and beliefs into their craft.

How is Traditional Witchcraft different? Different than what? I would have a different answer for every witchcraft or pagan tradition you would want to compare it to. Most people only care how it is different from Wicca - they have many similarities, but generally there is no ceremonial ritual structure (no formal circles, no invoking with athames, no having an HP and HPS, no invoking the elements or guardians or watchtowers to cast a circle,), little to no hierarchy or coven structure (no HP or HPS, no degrees system), Practices are based more in "shamanism" than the ceremonial system Wicca and other traditions are based on, there is an importance placed on working phsyically with the land (as a guardian and wildcrafter), there is more emphasis on working with the otherworld (familiars, spirit helpers, communicating with dead ancestors, working with the good neighbours, working with land spirits, house wights, plant spirits...). But mainly I see the difference as a lack of polyester crushed velvet ritual robes.... I personally prefer a raincoat and wellies here in the rain forest.

[Philosophia]

How about letting other members help define Trad Craft the way they see it through their eyes?

Sure, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

[Philosophia]

For me personally what sets TW apart is that the practitioners base their practices in the old lores - chants, incantations, ballads, superstitions, collections of oral lore, documented witchcraft practices and rituals... Whereas many TW witches see the Wiccans and Neopagans as practicing ceremonial-based lore as well as modern-based lore and practices - not necessarily fakelore, but rituals and beliefs stemming from modern day. Much of what we practice is from the Middle Ages and later, but many TW's do incorporate older traditions and beliefs into their craft.

How is Traditional Witchcraft different? Different than what? I would have a different answer for every witchcraft or pagan tradition you would want to compare it to. Most people only care how it is different from Wicca - they have many similarities, but generally there is no ceremonial ritual structure (no formal circles, no invoking with athames, no having an HP and HPS, no invoking the elements or guardians or watchtowers to cast a circle,), little to no hierarchy or coven structure (no HP or HPS, no degrees system), Practices are based more in "shamanism" than the ceremonial system Wicca and other traditions are based on, there is an importance placed on working phsyically with the land (as a guardian and wildcrafter), there is more emphasis on working with the otherworld (familiars, spirit helpers, communicating with dead ancestors, working with the good neighbours, working with land spirits, house wights, plant spirits...). But mainly I see the difference as a lack of polyester crushed velvet ritual robes.... I personally prefer a raincoat and wellies here in the rain forest.

This is a good explanation.

Could you go into a more detailed explanation about the shamanistic aspect of traditional witchcraft and how this differs from other witchcraft paths, i.e. hedge, green, kitchen, etc.?

[Deerwoman]

This is a good explanation.

Could you go into a more detailed explanation about the shamanistic aspect of traditional witchcraft and how this differs from other witchcraft paths, i.e. hedge, green, kitchen, etc.?
First I'd like to say, they really aren't different, they all flow into and out of one another - the three you mentioned can be practiced within a Wiccan or a Traditional Witchcraft framework, or a Ceremonial framework, or a Hoodoo framework, or a Stregha framework... What makes them different is how they are practiced within the different structures.

The "modern" definition of a hedge, green, and kitchen witch is basically a domesticated housewife who gardens, cooks, and wildcrafts and bases their magical practices and beliefs in these everyday practices. The modern books for this type of witch are a kind of "Wicca for green witches" or "Wicca for kitchen witches"... type books - and while Wicca gives good structure to very personal paths like the ones above, sometimes the witch wishes to take that path even further. For example, say a kitchen witch doesn't want to follow a Wiccan mold but wants to be a kitchen witch to core - he or she would need to study the history, folklore, and mythology of food, cooking, feasting, agriculture, harvesting.... as well as food and agricultural deities and spirits.

The best example of separating out the paths is that of the hedgewitch. The "modern" definition of hedge witch is of Rae Beth and Ann Moura's creation. A hedge witch is not a kitchen witch, a domesticated witch, or a green witch - he or she walks a much more shamanistic and dangerous path. They walk between worlds, journeying into the otherworld, communicating with spirits and the dead. They may practice things like soul retrieval, tapping the bone, flying, trancework, entheogen use... There is a high incidence of schitzophrenia and mental illness within shamanism, especially more ancient forms of shamanism than a lot of the neo-stuff practiced today. So it is not a path for someone to choose on a whim, but one that requires a lot of study, practice, trial and error, and of course personal responsibility and sometimes a spotter.

Overall, for me the essence of what traditional witchcraft is taking things further in your path - advanced study, practice, and experiences. Trying to find the source, the history, and the how and why for everything we witches believe and do. Most traditional witches I know don't read pagan books - we read anthropological, archaeological, history, and religion texts - then like me, they may supplement this knowledge with folklore and practicing what they've learned in their daily lives. As a TW I try to incorporate my craft and beliefs into every part of my life and everything I do no matter how seemingly mundane. There is a long history of magic to be found in any daily act - and I think the curious TW witch knows this best.

I hope my little tidbits helped you understand the differences better Philosophia.

Slainte!

[Philosophia]

Thank you very much for explaining this for me :hugz:. I don't think I've heard of soul retrieval, tapping the bone, and entheogen use so I'll have to look these up.

[green aventurine]

Thank you very much for explaining this for me :hugz:. I don't think I've heard of soul retrieval, tapping the bone, and entheogen use so I'll have to look these up.

Yes, I also found deerwoman’s explanation very interesting.

Rae Beth’s Hedgewitch was one of the first pagan books I ever read. I liked the shamanic bits in it and I thought she was a good writer but it wasn't really for me. In retrospect I realised why as it seems to me Wiccan Shamanism. If you're interested in reading about something in the TW vein, I have found this ladies’ site very good although I'm not TW either.

http://www.hedgewytchery.com/indexb.html (http://www.hedgewytchery.com/indexb.html)

She also has a section on the differences between traditional witchcraft and wicca which I also found interesting.

http://www.hedgewytchery.com/craft.html (http://www.hedgewytchery.com/craft.html)

I also enjoyed Sandra Ingerman’s book on soul retrieval although she's not a witch as far as I'm aware.

[Deerwoman]

Dawn's site Hedgewytchery is an excellent recommendation to anyone interested in that path as well as Traditional Witchcraft in general. Along the same vein, one of my all time favourite books on the subject is Emma Wilby's Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions In Early Modern British Witchcraft And Magic (http://www.amazon.com/Cunning-Folk-Familiar-Spirits-Shamanistic/dp/1845190785/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236533353&sr=8-1). This work blew me away, not only because Wilby draws parallels between witchcraft and ancient shamanism, but that she also provides evidence.


Thank you very much for explaining this for me :hugz:. I don't think I've heard of soul retrieval, tapping the bone, and entheogen use so I'll have to look these up.
Your welcome! Soul retrieval is a shamanic practice that's been found in different cultures worldwide, the local shamans where I live even used it. It was believed that some illnesses (sometimes mental illness) were caused by loss of the soul - which can be stolen by evil spirits or mischevious ones from the spirit world (this was also believed by cultures in Northern Europe). The shaman will journey there to rescue the ill person's soul and put it back into their body. "Tapping the bone" is a modern TW phrase meaning communication with the ancestors - trying to talk to their spirits to gain knowledge, wisdom, or even divination. Entheogens are mind altering substances traditionally used in spiritual practice. There are a million books on them and their use in ritual and magic due to all the mushroom tripping hippies out there. Entheogens were used by almost all "pagan" and animistic cultures - everyone from prehistoric shamans to ancient Greek priests were taking drugs. The public library or a Wiki are probably a good place to research if you're interested. :uhhuhuh:

Cheers!

[Kalioppee]

Ahh I found these to be good explanations of Trad Witchcraft. I too am a Trad Witch. It is not so much a family trad although I was taught much by my Grandmother, so it is steeped in the folklore of Poland. I have taken what I learned from her and added or grew from there.

[LadyeFalcon]

The Blue Ridge folk witches are heavly influenced by the Christian influences also. Many to include or be built around a Christian religious foundation.




I beg to differ with that most of the folks I know from the Blue Ridge were heavily influenced by the North Eastern Woodland indigenous beliefs and traditions, also Germanic and/or Scottish influences.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I beg to differ with that most of the folks I know from the Blue Ridge were heavily influenced by the North Eastern Woodland indigenous beliefs and traditions, also Germanic and/or Scottish influences.

Early traditions and such I would agree with the Germanic and Scottish influences upon things. By early I'm speaking of literly anything from about late 1700's to mid 1800's.. Pretty much up to about 1880 time frame when one see's lots of movement after the war.

After the war there is a big influx of biblical lore and influence, especially the Northern End of the Shenandoah Valley. You see more of the Pow Wow type magics filtering down from PA and along the Valley trail. However, I agree that you do not see so much change in the Wise Woman notion.

I couldn't prove it but I think one see's more of a change in the males with usage of the Pow Wow influences.

That and large migrations of population have carried a lot of the lore westward. More of the Germanic / Scottish influence are carried into the Kentucky/Tennessee regions or the Western Expanse of West Virginia. Pat of the void left being filled by the Biblical influence that took hold in many of the mountain regions due to the travelling preacher's on the circuit. One of the reasons for so many males named Loronzo Dow along the Blue Ridge / Smokey's.

[Erebos]

This is an interesting thread.

I've recently become interested in Traditional Witchcraft myself, since Wicca doesn't really interest me, but I like how modern Witchcraft in general incorporates shamanism and polytheistic worship without following a specific dead culture. It appears to be oriented more towards aboriginal spirituality rather than the organized religion of more "developed" civilizations. I like that it's simple and "primitive" (which I don't mean in a bad way, I just mean closer to the origin), yet emphasizes shamanism and advanced spiritual practice without the Rede and ceremonial structure of Wicca.

[David19]

Dawn's site Hedgewytchery is an excellent recommendation to anyone interested in that path as well as Traditional Witchcraft in general. Along the same vein, one of my all time favourite books on the subject is Emma Wilby's Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions In Early Modern British Witchcraft And Magic (http://www.amazon.com/Cunning-Folk-Familiar-Spirits-Shamanistic/dp/1845190785/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236533353&sr=8-1). This work blew me away, not only because Wilby draws parallels between witchcraft and ancient shamanism, but that she also provides evidence.

Just so people knw, Dawn's site is offline for the time being, but, you can still access it through the way back when machine here (http://web.archive.org/web/20080603080528/www.hedgewytchery.com/indexb.html). Also, I should have that book in the next couple of weeks, hopefully anyway, it sounds very cool.

[green aventurine]

Just so people knw, Dawn's site is offline for the time being, but, you can still access it through the way back when machine here (http://web.archive.org/web/20080603080528/www.hedgewytchery.com/indexb.html). Also, I should have that book in the next couple of weeks, hopefully anyway, it sounds very cool.

thanks for letting us know about the site. I had my eye on that book as well when she mentioned it but I still haven't got a copy and read it. I'd be interested to know what you think about it, if you have the chance to post something, when you've finished reading it.

[GoldenOak]

This is an interesting thread.

I've recently become interested in Traditional Witchcraft myself, since Wicca doesn't really interest me, but I like how modern Witchcraft in general incorporates shamanism and polytheistic worship without following a specific dead culture. It appears to be oriented more towards aboriginal spirituality rather than the organized religion of more "developed" civilizations. I like that it's simple and "primitive" (which I don't mean in a bad way, I just mean closer to the origin), yet emphasizes shamanism and advanced spiritual practice without the Rede and ceremonial structure of Wicca.

Just so you know, not all shamanic TW is polytheistic. I, myself, am a monotheistic TW. Maybe in some places, TW is primarily poly, but where I'm from, it's not. Occasionally doulogic, but not poly. Parts of our local Goddess based faith and TW have even been made famous (or maybe that should be infamous) by a local best-selling fiction author, albeit his version has been twisted quite a bit and merged with "something" into a good/evil fantasy setting, and not in a good way, but he uses many of the same terms, concepts, and practices. Needless to say, in this region, his books don't sell well. But I digress, if your interested in learning some basic beliefs of the monotheistic faith of mine and many TW's, here's a link (http://goldenoaksblog.blogspot.com).

[David19]

thanks for letting us know about the site. I had my eye on that book as well when she mentioned it but I still haven't got a copy and read it. I'd be interested to know what you think about it, if you have the chance to post something, when you've finished reading it.

No problem, and, when I get it, I'll be sure to let you/others know what I think of her book. BTW, just in case you're interested, and also others here, Wilby has another book coming out very soon called 'The Visions of Isobel Gowdie: Magic, Witchcraft and Dark Shamanism in Seventeenth-Century Scotland' (http://www.sussex-academic.co.uk/sa/titles/history/wilbygowdie.htm). It comes out on the 1st April (I think, or sometime near then, when I was in Waterstones last week, they said it would be released at the beginning of April), at least, in the UK (not sure about elsewhere). That sounds very interesting too, 'cause, if I'm remembering correcting, Isobel Gowdie was one of the few Witches who didn't need any, or much prompting (i.e. torture), to reveal she was a Witch, and she made no apologies for it either. I think I'll get the first book, though, before I get the new one.


Just so you know, not all shamanic TW is polytheistic. I, myself, am a monotheistic TW. Maybe in some places, TW is primarily poly, but where I'm from, it's not. Occasionally doulogic, but not poly. Parts of our local Goddess based faith and TW have even been made famous (or maybe that should be infamous) by a local best-selling fiction author, albeit his version has been twisted quite a bit and merged with "something" into a good/evil fantasy setting, and not in a good way, but he uses many of the same terms, concepts, and practices. Needless to say, in this region, his books don't sell well. But I digress, if your interested in learning some basic beliefs of the monotheistic faith of mine and many TW's, here's a link (http://goldenoaksblog.blogspot.com).

Thanks for the link and that info, I've heard that too. Also, from my reading of Cochrane, and other Traditional Witches, I think I'm understanding they have a different relationship to the Gods than most other people, it seems, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but, the goal of the Witch is to go past the Gods (I think anyway, I'm still learning).

I'll definitely be reading your blog with interest :).

[Bird]

....
The "modern" definition of a hedge, green, and kitchen witch is basically a domesticated housewife who gardens, cooks, and wildcrafts and bases their magical practices and beliefs in these everyday practices. The modern books for this type of witch are a kind of "Wicca for green witches" or "Wicca for kitchen witches"... type books - and while Wicca gives good structure to very personal paths like the ones above, sometimes the witch wishes to take that path even further. For example, say a kitchen witch doesn't want to follow a Wiccan mold but wants to be a kitchen witch to core - he or she would need to study the history, folklore, and mythology of food, cooking, feasting, agriculture, harvesting.... as well as food and agricultural deities and spirits.

Whilst I will admit to being "domesticated" (urrggghhh, though I hate to admit it) and virtually all my practice is centred around my home, I am most definitely not Wiccan. Although I trained with a Wiccan group in my youth, and at one stage could circle with the best of 'em, I drew away from ritualised practice because it simply didn't fit in with my lifestyle - if I want to acheive something, I want to do it NOW, not wait until the astrological, lunar, colour, seasonal etc etc etc correspondences fall into place. As a self-confessed kitchen witch, my power is in nurturing by food, and regarding food as fuel AND medicine (for body and soul!).

Without thinking about it, my kitchen is full of books regarding the history of food, traditional food, the meaning of food, the uses of food for healing, as well as my grandmother's recipe collection (which I PROMISE I will one day collate - it's on the backs of envelopes, bits of newspaper, on diary pages etc!), a little unintended research perhaps??

I shy away from the label "Traditional" - because of many connotations of lineage I can't fulfil. But as a family, we are continuing with a mix of both hubby's and my family 'traditions' as well as concocting many of our own.

[Nuadu]

Trad Witchcraft as referred to in this post is seen as Common Traditional Witchcraft or "CTW" instead of British Traditional Witchcraft or "BTW". Common Trad Witchcraft is whatever works for the individual Witch with roots in many sources/practices.

I read through the thread and it was interesting and diverse but in the 10 mins or so that took I couldnt keep my mind off something from Meisopomenos first post.

To a degree I can see that the above *whatever works* could prevent arguments between different traditions but could it be possible that the *whatever works* approach makes CTW just another name for neo-wicca? Like couldnt any newbie wicca book with a cultural flavour to it be called traditional witchcraft in that scheme? That type of ecclecticism is certainly not wicca and its so widespread that it definately needs its own legs to stand on, the title of CTW accepting a definition that its *whatever works* would be perfect.

In my experiance trad witchcraft is far more a closed affair then BTW is. Its not initiatory but saying that doesnt indicate its open to anyone like ecclectic witchcraft, just the opposite, the transmission of practices and beliefs are exceptionally personal and is limited to a small circle of family or very close friends. Its also true that Trad witchcraft isnt heavily codified like BTW and its innovated in each generation on an individual basis, but thats not to say you just choose whatever works and thats ok. Trad witchcraft is built on the practices of the people who came before you, people you love or people whos memories you respect and its a case of what you find works best for you in addition to their work. Trad witchcraft as a whole isnt built around a single culture but that doesnt mean its a free for all mish mash of cultures. It is very strongly built on family and community and individual traditions are rooted in local cultures.

That doesnt really fit in with Ecclecticism as we know it and I dont think that CTW would fit ecclectic witchraft well as a definition.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I think that Traditional Witches are going to have a problem with Wicca. TW's learn from others that are part of the family and know what their talking about. I believe that I'm a Traditional Witch because my family is Penn Dutch, we all have gifts of one form of the other (mine is just a little stronger) and all around things have happened to me that would never happen to anyone else. Now some will say 'Well that doesn't make you a Traditional Witch," and I'll agree that none of my family has practiced their family tradition due to it not being open to women (a few cases back in the 1800's stand out as different).

I don't conform to Wicca, don't believe in casting circle, calling quarters, all that junk. I know that I'm going to offend Wiccans but I don't think that Traditional witches care about the feelings of those that practice Wicca. Personally if they want to practice their religion then go ahead but don't say that Wicca and Witchcraft are the same. Everyone here will not agree with you on that point.

I'm currently going back to my roots and learning about healing, folk magic, and getting in-touch with my Christian side. I'm totally staying away from anyone that says the following 'Well you can't practice magic if you still believe in God.' I remember someone saying that to me a long time ago. This practice isn't limited to just Goddess worshipers. I'm a Traditional Witch, though some might say that I'm not, and I'm dang proud of that.

[Micheál]

I would have to agree with everything my mate Nuadu said up there, especially the part about CTW being far more closed off than BTW. It being secular in nature, is also why most of the stories you hear from "pagan" hereditary witches are complete fabrications.

Witchcraft in the English language has taken many forms from the 1800's to the Murray thesis. It's different for people that base their practices on cunning traditions associated with such, but people doing so probably owe more credit to Gardner then they realise, regardless of what type of "witch" they are.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I'll thank the New Agers for bringing back the need for the Hexmeisters and other forms of folk magic practitioners. However the thanking ends when the Wiccans use Wicca and witchcraft interchangeably. I'm a witch, not a Wiccan, and I think that the confusion needs to end.

The reason that I'm a witch is that I don't believe in the Wiccan Rede, harming none, and all that other stuff. I'll hex your butt and not loose any sleep. My experience with words have shown me that words carry a ton of power. I don't brag about what my words have done, I just don't believe in holding back when someone is attacking me.

[phathead]

Ok, I am needing a little clarification here to understand. I am trying to engage,not offend. I completely get the green or hedge witch...that makes sense to me from an earth based practice. But if Common Traditional Witchcraft has the attitude that you can borrow whatever works and can make up their own Ethos; what makes it traditional? To me traditional anything needs to have a verifiable history. Also, what makes anyone think they can borrow anything from another system that is initiatory based? Vodou has a history and is initiatory, and forgive me here Kenaz, but most of the practices do not lend themselves well to non-initiates.(or solitary practitioners) It is the same with my tradition, one that can be traced back quite a ways and I would think with most others like Shuar Shamans, Hopi medicine men, etc.
Maybe I missed something???

[Caitlin.ann]

Ok, I am needing a little clarification here to understand. I am trying to engage,not offend. I completely get the green or hedge witch...that makes sense to me from an earth based practice. But if Common Traditional Witchcraft has the attitude that you can borrow whatever works and can make up their own Ethos; what makes it traditional? To me traditional anything needs to have a verifiable history. Also, what makes anyone think they can borrow anything from another system that is initiatory based? Vodou has a history and is initiatory, and forgive me here Kenaz, but most of the practices do not lend themselves well to non-initiates.(or solitary practitioners) It is the same with my tradition, one that can be traced back quite a ways and I would think with most others like Shuar Shamans, Hopi medicine men, etc.
Maybe I missed something???

Traditional is often used to refer to practices handed down from ancestors to continue a family "traditional" practice which include various folk practices. People also use it to refer to practices (again folk practices) practiced before Gardener founded Wicca. Its not your typical definition of traditional, but thats how its used regardless.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Actually those that believe that you can borrow from whatever you want is the Eccentric witches. Traditional witches don't borrow from anyone, they follow family traditions.

[Caitlin.ann]

Actually those that believe that you can borrow from whatever you want is the Eccentric witches. Traditional witches don't borrow from anyone, they follow family traditions.

Eclectic. Sorry couldn't help it.

[phathead]

Yeah, that was my point. If someone is practicing traditions handed down in a family over generations that's cool, it has that history I was talking about but they would probably call it whatever Nanny called it - not Common Traditional Witchcraft.

[Caitlin.ann]

Yeah, that was my point. If someone is practicing traditions handed down in a family over generations that's cool, it has that history I was talking about but they would probably call it whatever Nanny called it - not Common Traditional Witchcraft.

Yeah but traditional witchcraft is an umbrella term for all of those different grannies handing down their various folk traditions. I venture to say that very few grannies have the same traditional folk practices, so to simply call it traditional witchcraft is much easier, not to mention easier to search for on google if you're looking for others of like minds.

[kagekarasu]

Actually those that believe that you can borrow from whatever you want is the Eccentric witches. Traditional witches don't borrow from anyone, they follow family traditions.

They do borrow, but the basis of their craft is in older traditions practiced in their family. Their is also a lot of, yes, figuring out your own way, because what works for one, doesn't always work the same way for another. Part of many traditions is learning to trust your instincts, and listen to your higher self. Also, there's nothing wrong with doing such, as someone before you had to do the same thing to start the tradition in the first place.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Interesting statement but what I want to know is how can I be borrowing things from my Penn Dutch heritage when it's written down by those that have been doing the same thing for many hundreds of years? I believe the Traditional Witch site mentioned that's what Wiccans do and not witches. I'll go back and check to see if I was right about that.

[herbal_legends]

I think CTW is not to be taken so literally.....it's traditional in the sense that....what witches traditionally did was borrow and use things that worked for them individually or their particular families. It doesn't have to be secretly passed down to be traditional...there's no initiation.....the style of witchcraft (the art of being spontaneous in your craft) is what being a traditional witch is all about.

[Caitlin.ann]

Interesting statement but what I want to know is how can I be borrowing things from my Penn Dutch heritage when it's written down by those that have been doing the same thing for many hundreds of years? I believe the Traditional Witch site mentioned that's what Wiccans do and not witches. I'll go back and check to see if I was right about that.

Do you think wiccans aren't also witches?

[Sekhmet Soul30]

No, Wiccans aren't witches. Witchcraft is much older than Wicca while Wicca was 'invented' by Gardner in the 1950's. The Traditional Witch forum clearly states that Wiccans aren't witches.

[herbal_legends]

No, Wiccans aren't witches. Witchcraft is much older than Wicca while Wicca was 'invented' by Gardner in the 1950's. The Traditional Witch forum clearly states that Wiccans aren't witches.

Some Wiccans perform witchcraft, and anyone who does witchcraft is a witch. A Witch, however, does not have to be Wiccan though.

[Caitlin.ann]

No, Wiccans aren't witches. Witchcraft is much older than Wicca while Wicca was 'invented' by Gardner in the 1950's. The Traditional Witch forum clearly states that Wiccans aren't witches.

But witches can be wiccan and wiccans can be witches. One is a religion and one is a practice that can be combined with any religion or lack thereof. Though the terms are not interchangable they are also not mutually exclusive.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Here's the link to a website that I was on the Traditional Witch community. I do hope that I won't get into trouble putting it up.

http://www.empathys.co.uk/17.html

Let me know what you think, though I still believe that Witchcraft is older than Wicca. Also about the point that Wiccans aren't witches, just repeating what the owner of the forum stated as to why Traditional Witch wasn't a Wicca website. Also most Wiccan authors will state that Wicca and Witchcraft can be used interchangeably, which I think is a load of hogwash.

[herbal_legends]

Here's the link to a website that I was on the Traditional Witch community. I do hope that I won't get into trouble putting it up.

http://www.empathys.co.uk/17.html

Let me know what you think, though I still believe that Witchcraft is older than Wicca. Also about the point that Wiccans aren't witches, just repeating what the owner of the forum stated as to why Traditional Witch wasn't a Wicca website. Also most Wiccan authors will state that Wicca and Witchcraft can be used interchangeably, which I think is a load of hogwash.



I think you're getting mixed up with witch and Traditional Witch. No Wiccans are not Traditional Witches but they are witches if they cast spells.

Witchcraft is not exclusive. Anybody who practices the Craft is a Witch.....just not necessarily a Traditional Witch.

[Caitlin.ann]

I think that site is a load of hogwash, lol. Witchcraft is older than wicca in that people were practicing folk traditions long before Gardner was ever a twinkle in his daddy's eye.

Wiccans can be witches but they don't have to be. If they don't practice witchcraft then they're not witches. Witchcraft is a practice and is not synonomous with traditional witchcraft which is as we determined earlier family traditions passed down through generations.

I wouldn't use one site to make up your mind on what wicca is vs. what witchcraft is. You should browse many different sites and opinions and find what you believe is most credible.

I agree that Wicca and witch can not be used interchangably, which is part of my point. They can not be used interchangably, but one person can be both a witch and a wiccan just like one can be a buddhist and a witch, a christian and a witch, a jew and a witch, a rastafarian and a witch, etc.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I fully believe in the point that your making but I don't believe that tools make a witch. There are a lot of Wiccans that love to call themselves a witch but then there are some witches that don't like being called a Wiccan. I'm one of them. People will spend loads of money on tools that they just don't need and aren't needed.

I think that the only things that one needs for magic is intent. No wand, no Athame, no candles, no incense, not bells, and no herbs. I've done some wicked magic with just my intent. I've felt great energy with just my intent. I've done spell work with just liquids. There are people out there that practice the craft without tools because they don't have the money.

It doesn't mean that their not witches just because they don't have the fancy 'goods.' The site that I gave you is something that I've believed in for many years. Most of the other sites are hogwash to the highest level.

I believe in casting all sorts of spells, including black. I don't believe in this harm none business nor do I believe that you need a circle to hold energy. Of course that's my views and most Wiccans might not agree. Of course that's why I love this portion of the forum.

[EntwinedScylla]

I think that Traditional Witches are going to have a problem with Wicca.

I'm a Traditional Witch, I have no problem with Wicca or The Wica. I have no problem with people who practice those paths, as long as the people themselves are decent individuals. Those who aren't decent don't get discounted on the basis of being an arse -and- being Wiccan. They get discounted on the basis of being an arse.


TW's learn from others that are part of the family and know what their talking about.

Yes and no. I was trained by someone who was a Family Traditionalist, but because he was gay was summarily banned from the practices of his Family. Because he had no children of his own, he had to find another way to pass the Power.

So, I learned from someone who was Family, but not blood-family. Things go differently for every group, it seems. I will likely never have children, blood or otherwise. But I will pass what I have been given.


I believe that I'm a Traditional Witch because my family is Penn Dutch, we all have gifts of one form of the other (mine is just a little stronger) and all around things have happened to me that would never happen to anyone else.

Having a family history of skill does not denote being a Traditional Witch. Being trained in the use of those skills by fore-bearers, however, does.


I know that I'm going to offend Wiccans but I don't think that Traditional witches care about the feelings of those that practice Wicca.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much. You've been posting a lot of posts decrying the Wiccans and being associated with them. (Rather heavy-handedly I might add, while stating that you sure hope they don't get offended.) We get it, trust me. We know you're not Wiccan. And party-bonus, most people using the title "Wiccan" aren't Wiccan (in the sense of BTW) either. They're ecclectic witches. Shock, awe... we're all Witches, whether we like sharing that boat or not.

[Caitlin.ann]

I fully believe in the point that your making but I don't believe that tools make a witch. There are a lot of Wiccans that love to call themselves a witch but then there are some witches that don't like being called a Wiccan. I'm one of them. People will spend loads of money on tools that they just don't need and aren't needed.

I think that the only things that one needs for magic is intent. No wand, no Athame, no candles, no incense, not bells, and no herbs. I've done some wicked magic with just my intent. I've felt great energy with just my intent. I've done spell work with just liquids. There are people out there that practice the craft without tools because they don't have the money.

It doesn't mean that their not witches just because they don't have the fancy 'goods.' The site that I gave you is something that I've believed in for many years. Most of the other sites are hogwash to the highest level.

I believe in casting all sorts of spells, including black. I don't believe in this harm none business nor do I believe that you need a circle to hold energy. Of course that's my views and most Wiccans might not agree. Of course that's why I love this portion of the forum.

But your opinions do not disqualify Wiccans from also being witches. The same could be said for any ritual practicing religion that incorporates witchcraft.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Hay, I've got someone to repeat that phrase. Oh yeah me. I think that so many people that are Traditionalist have said that they do have a problem with Wicca that I've believed that they all have a problem. Thanks for clearing it up that you don't. Karl Herr, who is the author of the book that I ordered, had no problem with them.

On the second part of the post I think that it was cool that he trained you. To bad his family didn't understand him.

On your third post: It was hard to train when the practice was closed to women and thus none of them had learned what they needed to be a Pow-Wower. However my grandmother did teach me a few remedies that she was allowed to learn, which is all connected with the home. So I learned something but not everything. That's why I'm learning from books written by others that have written about the subject. However I don't place full faith in books.

Note: Thanks for hearing my words.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Okay, you've made the point that I'm not disqualifying Wiccans from also being Witches.

[Caitlin.ann]

good

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Okay, lets get back on-topic of the thread. What do you believe, Caitlin.ann, is Traditional Witchcraft? If you've answered then I'm sorry that I'm making you repeat but I don't think that I caught your answer to the thread's question.

Another question: Do you believe that Traditional Witchcraft involves circle casting, calling quarters, believing in the Wicca Rede, harming none, having a Book of Shadows, and believing in a God or Goddess. Love to hear your input.

[Micheál]

No, Wiccans aren't witches. Witchcraft is much older than Wicca while Wicca was 'invented' by Gardner in the 1950's. The Traditional Witch forum clearly states that Wiccans aren't witches.

Wiccans are witches, upon initiation into Traditional Wicca, one becomes a "Witch", and before the term "Wicca" was coined, the initiatory mystery tradition was always referred to as Witchcraft. Witchcraft is secular in nature, so Gardnerian Witchcraft is just one form of witchcraft, however, those that label their cunning traditions witchcraft, can thank Gardner for influencing the way the term was used in English, beside the usual "black magic" that those acquire through pacts with the devil.

I've seen many fabrications on Traditional Witchcraft sites, as I've said before, a lot of people in the TW pagan community oddly enough enter the community en route neo-Wicca, and either leave because they don't agree with Wicca's criteria, and will go on to follow something "older", that wasn't publically introduced in the 1950s, however, the use of the term "Traditional Witchcraft" as describing pre-Gardnerian cunning practices didn't emerge until the 1990s if we take an academic approach. Countless examples appear in Ronald Hutton's Triumph of the Moon

"Quite frequently in the 1990s individuals who identify with the label
'Hereditary' or 'Traditional' witchcraft have told me that their religion has descended to them from their family or from older people known in their youth. Almost as often, they have added upon further conversation that these forebears did not apply the words 'pagan' or 'witch' to themselves, 'but their beliefs were just the same.' Ih enquiry goes further, those beliefs and actions usually turn out to consist of one or more of the components from which pagan witchcraft developed, such as popular charms and magical remedies, fortune-telling, ritual magic, and a mystical identification with an inherent sanctity in the natural world, or with pre-Christian monuments or literatures; but not the whole construction, as represented by Wicca and its derivatives or rivals. During the 1990s, also, pagan witches have generally become aware of the lack of any documentary evidence for their history before the 1940s and of the desirability of finding some. From time to time rumours have swept British Pagan world of the existence of some unequivocal record, but on enquiry, such documents always seem to vanish like wills-o'-the-wisp. "

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I think the reason that there is no documents that can be touched is that it was dangerous to have that stuff around due to the Inquisition. Also many people, including those in the poor class, couldn't read or write. I like the Traditional path because I feel connected to my past and it is still being practiced today, so it's not like what I'm reading isn't what is actually practiced.

One of the main things, major things, that I have against Wicca is that they claim that Wicca is the oldest religion in the world. It's not and that's all I'm saying about that subject.

[LadyDryad]

I think the reason that there is no documents that can be touched is that it was dangerous to have that stuff around due to the Inquisition. Also many people, including those in the poor class, couldn't read or write. I like the Traditional path because I feel connected to my past and it is still being practiced today, so it's not like what I'm reading isn't what is actually practiced.

One of the main things, major things, that I have against Wicca is that they claim that Wicca is the oldest religion in the world. It's not and that's all I'm saying about that subject.


Can you cite a source that says Wicca is the oldest religion in the world?

[Micheál]

Those claims are a stereotypical newbie trait. I don't know of any Traditional Wiccans, or well read neo-Wiccans that would say such.

Also, as far as historic charmers and cunningfolk, many were literate, and acquired the means to do what they did through books, mostly focusing on the occult. Those labelled as witches had antisocial reputations, whose supposed "charms" and "curses" were usually used to scam people out of money. People that were executed because of witchcraft, were usually done so for political reasons, and the numbers of people that were, were substantially lower than those executed for other reasons.

[LadyDryad]

Those claims are a stereotypical newbie trait. I don't know of any Traditional Wiccans, or well read neo-Wiccans that would say such.

Also, as far as historic charmers and cunningfolk, many were literate, and acquired the means to do what they did through books, mostly focusing on the occult. Those labelled as witches had antisocial reputations, whose supposed "charms" and "curses" were usually used to scam people out of money. People that were executed because of witchcraft, were usually done so for political reasons, and the numbers of people that were, were substantially lower than those executed for other reasons.

But the sources that say that could be vital to my life! I can't think for myself, so I need books to tell me what to think and how to act!

*insert sarcasm icon here*

[Micheál]

But the sources that say that could be vital to my life! I can't think for myself, so I need books to tell me what to think and how to act!

*insert sarcasm icon here*
:hahugh:

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I'm going to have to disagree with you that literate part. Only those that were of noble blood were taught to read and write. The nobles were the ones that had all the documents about their bloodline and were even able to hide papers that proved that they were practicing Witchcraft and other forms of the occult. That's why you see fancy family tree's inside large manors dating from this time and not from poor farmers or other people. While I'll agree that there were books on the occult out there they were heavily controlled by the Church and were even more so controlled with the printing press was invented.

Here's the link that has the info that talks about the fact that Wiccans believe their religion is the oldest in the world.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/261118/wicca_the_worlds_oldest_religion.html

[DiscordianKitten]

I've seen a lot claim Witchcraft is the oldest religion in the world - a bit silly really since witchcraft is a practice, not a religion.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I agree. Witchcraft isn't a religion, it's a practice. Witchcraft was around during the Egyptian time and further back. Even when we were all hunters and gathers there were people that practiced witchcraft that was looked upon as having power to make things happen. Cave paintings show animals that were already hunted and killed.

Most that study these state that they were drawn prior to hunting. The idea of drawing something already done meant that they believed that the animals would be killed by them.

[DiscordianKitten]

Weeelll...

I've heard a lot of that is theory and speculation. It's a good theory, but not a fact, is what i've heard.

[Twinkle]

Weeelll...

I've heard a lot of that is theory and speculation. It's a good theory, but not a fact, is what i've heard.

Then there's the fact that what people view as Witchcraft was more shamanic practices than anything else.

[herbal_legends]

Ok so it's actually pretty simple...

Witchcraft (with a capital W) IS a religion
witchcraft (with a lower case w) is NOT a religion

A Wiccan who works with magick, whether they call the corners, watch towers or your mama, is a witch...you can't say they are NOT a witch....cuz then obviously you don't know what witchcraft is.

Traditionalwitch.net is saying that they are not Wiccan....they are not saying that Wiccans are not witches. They are saying that Wiccans are NOT TRADITIONAL WITCHES. Wiccans are what we like to call "fluffy" witches....but they are witches nonetheless.

Please stop going around saying that Blah blah blah website or book says Wiccans are not witches...it's just not true....all informed Traditional Witches know that Wiccans that practice the craft are indeed witches. This is basic knowledge.

Okay I'm done on this topic... LOL

My apologies for sounding irritated...my kids are driving me nuts this morning.

[DiscordianKitten]

I'd never heard of someone say Wiccans are not witches. That sounds like a damn silly claim to me ^_^

Nice post herbal - thank you :)

[herbal_legends]

I'd never heard of someone say Wiccans are not witches. That sounds like a damn silly claim to me ^_^

Nice post herbal - thank you :)

Thanks :thumbsup:

[Lilac Moon]

Interesting and amusing thread....

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Thanks for clearing up what Traditional Witches believe and I feel sorry for you about the kids, Herbal. Our annoying upstairs neighbor with her cussing children, her elderly bothering devil girl, has finally left. I thank whoever that I don't have to see them or hear the girl telling another elderly woman to F off.

[Micheál]

I'm going to have to disagree with you that literate part. Only those that were of noble blood were taught to read and write. The nobles were the ones that had all the documents about their bloodline and were even able to hide papers that proved that they were practicing Witchcraft and other forms of the occult. That's why you see fancy family tree's inside large manors dating from this time and not from poor farmers or other people. While I'll agree that there were books on the occult out there they were heavily controlled by the Church and were even more so controlled with the printing press was invented.

Here's the link that has the info that talks about the fact that Wiccans believe their religion is the oldest in the world.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/261118/wicca_the_worlds_oldest_religion.html
That's also a bit of misinformation that can be cleared up by academia. British scholar Owen Davies did a study about cunningfolk and conjurors in the British Isles from 1740-1940. Summing up his essay, Hutton states,

"He himself collected and analysed a sample of forty-one male practitioners for whom relatively detailed information survives, and found that they were overwhelmingly drawn from two closely related economic groups: tradesmen and artisans. The remainder (fourteen individuals) were mainly herbalists or schoolmasters. Female practioners formed a large minority of the cunning craft, often being married or widowed. They were every bit as popular and commercially successful as the men, and indeed this was one of the few means by which ordinary women could achieve a respected and independant position."

Further elaborating on charmers,"they were drawn from the same social groups. The upper ranks (above those of small retailer and farmer) were not represented, as these by definition did not engage in trades or crafts; but agricultural labourers, and the huge mass of the poorest members of society, were likewise almost wholly missing." One reason for this is because clients of the charmers and cunning folk were from the lower classes, that would consort someone higher than them for help, and another stated, "literacy and learning were percieved as intergral accomplishments for most types of cunning craft."

Owens states this perfectly in his own words,

"The evidence points to the fact that an illiterate cunning person was unlikely to go far. The outward sign of their accomplishment was that they possessed books, an immediate distinction in a society which, even by the mid-nineteenth century, it was exceptional for an ordinary household to own any except the Bible"

[Sekhmet Soul30]

Thanks for the post, I've learned something new today. However I was mostly talking about Dark Age nobles being able to read and write and poor people not being able to. They had to work on the farm and didn't have time, or couldn't afford, to learn to read. In-fact the bibles that came out during the dark ages had mostly pictures so that even the poor could tell what the bible was talking about.

It was really beautiful.

[Lilac Moon]

That's also a bit of misinformation that can be cleared up by academia. British scholar Owen Davies did a study about cunningfolk and conjurors in the British Isles from 1740-1940. Summing up his essay, Hutton states,

"He himself collected and analysed a sample of forty-one male practitioners for whom relatively detailed information survives, and found that they were overwhelmingly drawn from two closely related economic groups: tradesmen and artisans. The remainder (fourteen individuals) were mainly herbalists or schoolmasters. Female practioners formed a large minority of the cunning craft, often being married or widowed. They were every bit as popular and commercially successful as the men, and indeed this was one of the few means by which ordinary women could achieve a respected and independant position."

Further elaborating on charmers,"they were drawn from the same social groups. The upper ranks (above those of small retailer and farmer) were not represented, as these by definition did not engage in trades or crafts; but agricultural labourers, and the huge mass of the poorest members of society, were likewise almost wholly missing." One reason for this is because clients of the charmers and cunning folk were from the lower classes, that would consort someone higher than them for help, and another stated, "literacy and learning were percieved as intergral accomplishments for most types of cunning craft."

Owens states this perfectly in his own words,

"The evidence points to the fact that an illiterate cunning person was unlikely to go far. The outward sign of their accomplishment was that they possessed books, an immediate distinction in a society which, even by the mid-nineteenth century, it was exceptional for an ordinary household to own any except the Bible"

Kind of post I like.. informed, researched and .... intended to enlighten... Excellent... :thumbsup:

[Micheál]

Why thanks :)

[Caitlin.ann]

Thanks for the post, I've learned something new today. However I was mostly talking about Dark Age nobles being able to read and write and poor people not being able to. They had to work on the farm and didn't have time, or couldn't afford, to learn to read. In-fact the bibles that came out during the dark ages had mostly pictures so that even the poor could tell what the bible was talking about.

It was really beautiful.

To my knowledge you would be correct, though the Bibles I have seen had a lot of words, so I don't know about that last sentence. Fedual lords did not allow their serfs to learn, they couldn't anyways, didn't have the time while they were slaving away in the fields.

Funny how miscommunications work, eh?

[Sekhmet Soul30]

I watched a show about ancient Bibles so that's how I know. Of course we know that all changed with the Lords over the serfs after the Black Death.

[Caitlin.ann]

I watched a show about ancient Bibles so that's how I know. Of course we know that all changed with the Lords over the serfs after the Black Death.

You mean Renaissance Ideals spread? With a great deal of the population gone they had no choice but to adapt. Ebb and flow.

[Sekhmet Soul30]

You mean Renaissance Ideals spread? With a great deal of the population gone they had no choice but to adapt. Ebb and flow.

True, the Renaissance started after the Black Death. New ideas, new thinking, and the Gods returned at last. It was mainly just the Greek gods but it was a start.

[Micheál]

Thanks for the post, I've learned something new today. However I was mostly talking about Dark Age nobles being able to read and write and poor people not being able to. They had to work on the farm and didn't have time, or couldn't afford, to learn to read. In-fact the bibles that came out during the dark ages had mostly pictures so that even the poor could tell what the bible was talking about.

It was really beautiful.
No worries. You would be right in regards to literacy in the Middle Ages, however, I don't see how this period would tie in with "Traditional Witchcraft," in which it's roots are placed in nineteenth century Europe. We're talking about a time period that after the pull out of Roman, experienced a period of Norse Paganism, until it was the Celtic Christian Church that held it up, before the re-adoption of Roman Catholic standard. Historians place the Medieval Inquisition between the years 1184-1230s. During the Witch "Trials" in Europe, which roughly from 1400-1700, the bulk of the trials were concentrated in specific areas, usually by German Catholics, and Scottish Calvinists from 1560-1630.

These Traditional Witch sites place emphasis on cunning traditions of Western Europe, notably the British Isles, where we know most cunning folk were able to function. Most of the cunning folk persecuted during the Witchcraft Act of 1736(in which the maximum sentence was a year's imprisonment) were mostly crooks, who were denounced by magistrates from unsatisfied clients. "Witch mobbing" ended with the creation of county police forces in 1856, there was even an Occultists' Defence League founded in 1879, and witch persecutions waned from 1910(where defenders received much public sympathy), until the Act was appealed in 1951.

As far as literacy goes in this time, Hutton again perfectly states,

"Assumption that distinct and ancient 'oral tradition,' had endured among country people until modern times, sealed off from literate culture in an essentially unchanging provincial world, had been badly wrong. Systematic research has now proved that England had ceased to be a pre-literate society before the end of the sixteenth century, that reading, writing, and published works were an integral part of even small agricultural communities by that time-even if only a few people in each settlement could deploy them, on behalf of the rest-and that oral and written traditions intermingled and constantly enriched and informed each other. Written culture and spken culture were not two different worlds, but mirrors that reflected each other. To a lesser extent this last view point had been true since the early Middle Ages."

Clearly anyone claiming to follow a family tradition descended from the Middle Ages are spinning yarns, a feat that can't even hold up to the time of language. Most diaspora "Traditional Witches" can't even speak the language of their ancestors, which is something that has even been maintained by the Amish to a certain extent.

[~Elise~]

Making broad sweeping blanket statements about a whole path being 'fluffy' or such is treading close to being path bashing. Please watch what you say about others.