Correspondences in Traditional Witchcraft?

[HolyDiver777]

I know that in every Wiccan book I've seen, there's always an extensive list of correspondences, and I'd like to know if Traditional Witches ever used any correspondences? I've read that Trad Witches don't normally call upon the elements like in Wicca....but like certain herbs are supposed to have certain properties and used for certain spells/rituals....and certain stones have certain properties, so I was wondering if those apply in Trad Witchcraft.

And also, I don't think a lot of Trad Witches celebrate the Wheel of the Year because I think that came from Gardner...but are they into Esbats? Do certain phases of the moon mean anything to a Trad Witch or would they do a certain kind of spell at any time without use of the moon?

It's been proven that certain colors affect the mood and things like that, so I don't see a problem with using correspondences in that way, but some correspondence lists get so detailed I think it would be really hard to follow and even if I could follow it, I sure as hell couldn't remember it. lol.

Like sometimes, not only do some people do certain spells at the waxing moon or waning, etc. But they do it on a certain day within that moon phase and within a certain planetary hour...they use the moon in astroligical signs as well and I really don't know how you can use all that together. I don't find it necessary and I'd like to know if Trad Witches do or what they do find necessary. Also, why do some people use that many correspondences?

What really made me believe all correspondences aren't needed, especially when working under a moon phase is that a lot of spells are seen as needed to be worked in alignment with Pluto. Recently we've all discovered Pluto isn't really a planet, so that kinda screws things up for people who thought so for years I think.

Anyway, hope this wasn't too hard to follow. I tried to put a bunch of questions into one little thread so I'll be grateful to anyone who can actually answer me. :) Thanks guys.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I'd like to know if Traditional Witches ever used any correspondences?


In my experience yes we do. That said, my correspondences often come from my own usage and understanding of a thing, not from what some author has claimed in a book. Occasionally they may align or be completely different.



I've read that Trad Witches don't normally call upon the elements like in Wicca


I call upon and refer to the elements quit a bit. If you are speaking of calling the watch towers or four corners, etc then that depends upon the witch in question. However, most that I know that are folk witches or Cunning Folk would never do so.



I don't think a lot of Trad Witches celebrate the Wheel of the Year


Define wheel of the year. I use the wheel of the year but the actual seasonal wheel not the psuedo wheel of Wicca. I also recognize the moons of the year and the various associations assigned to them. I suppose one could say I also use the solar wheel as I recognize the longest and shortest days and such but not as Wiccan holidays.



would they do a certain kind of spell at any time without use of the moon?



Depends on the Tradition and the individual witch in question.

With regard to the moon and the various phases and such that is also a thing driven by individual and traditional usage. The reason one may use so many variables is defined by the tradition being used. Some traditions hold that the more that is in align the stronger the spell and the greater the chance of success.



Recently we've all discovered Pluto isn't really a planet, so that kinda screws things up for people who thought so for years I think.


Not really for it was not aligned because it was a planet but because of the influnce it had upon things. That it is no longer defined as a planet does not remove the impact and affect / effect it has upon the universe. It was all about placement in the heavens and influence upon the thing being done. And it's influence with and upon the other heavenly bodies and thier combined impact upon the Earth.

[HolyDiver777]

In my experience yes we do. That said, my correspondences often come from my own usage and understanding of a thing, not from what some author has claimed in a book. Occasionally they may align or be completely different.

When I've been reading certain rituals by others I try to guess what the correspondences might be going by what I feel is right...sometimes I'm close, sometimes I'm not. I didn't think it would be wrong to use my own correspondences since Witchcraft is about intuition....I just wondered if anyone else did that or if the correspondences were like a set structure that you had to follow closely.



I call upon and refer to the elements quit a bit. If you are speaking of calling the watch towers or four corners, etc then that depends upon the witch in question. However, most that I know that are folk witches or Cunning Folk would never do so..

Actually I'm quite confused as to the difference between calling the elements and calling the watch towers. In one book it said calling the watch towers is just another name for calling the elements....and in another book when the rituals are calling the elements, it says "Elemental Air, Elemental Fire," etc., and I thought elementals were divine aspects of an element like sylphs or whatever. I would just feel comfortable calling on the four elements, whether I had a circle or not because I would be working with them and it would feel right to call them.




Define wheel of the year. I use the wheel of the year but the actual seasonal wheel not the psuedo wheel of Wicca. I also recognize the moons of the year and the various associations assigned to them. I suppose one could say I also use the solar wheel as I recognize the longest and shortest days and such but not as Wiccan holidays..

By Wheel of the Year I meant the 8 Wiccan Sabbats. I'd like to know what holidays Traditional Witches did celebrate...I'm not sure Trad Witches see Samhain as their new year or if they only celebrate the solstices and equinoxes.




Depends on the Tradition and the individual witch in question.

With regard to the moon and the various phases and such that is also a thing driven by individual and traditional usage. The reason one may use so many variables is defined by the tradition being used. Some traditions hold that the more that is in align the stronger the spell and the greater the chance of success..

It seems that there is so much to go by that something would conflict with something else when trying to figure out when to do the spell...I'm just wondering how people put it all together.




Not really for it was not aligned because it was a planet but because of the influnce it had upon things. That it is no longer defined as a planet does not remove the impact and affect / effect it has upon the universe. It was all about placement in the heavens and influence upon the thing being done. And it's influence with and upon the other heavenly bodies and thier combined impact upon the Earth.

Anyway, thanks for helping me out. Sorry about all the questions. I've just noticed a lot of differences between Wicca and Trad Witches lately. I'm trying to sort it all out. I studied Wicca for years, thinking it was a revival of what the ancient "witches" before us did, when it really doesn't seem to have much in common with it at all. A lot of it is more complicated and structured, and that's fine for some people...but I want to stick to basics and just be simple for the most part, like those from the past....So I'm just trying to figure out the actual differences between Wicca and the Traditional Witches and figure out what is truly necessary.

[Godgifu]

Just thought I would add, someone over in the Pagan Public Market is selling a book of correspondences (supposedly covering every kind they could find.) I've not read it and so I don't know how good it is, but it seems like it could be helpful. http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=206719 is the original post.

[Nuadu]

This is a link to some essays by Trad witches in our corner of the world. I dont think the essays specifically address your issue but you might find some things that interest you.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~liossa/home/contents.htm

[MonSno_LeeDra]

HolyDiver777 wrote:



When I've been reading certain rituals by others I try to guess what the correspondences might be going by what I feel is right...sometimes I'm close, sometimes I'm not.


I think most that are on thier own pathwalk do that to a great extent. Let's face it if it doesn't feel right or work for us not much use in doing it.

I think the reason for correspondences in Wicca (and other group oriented traditions) is so that everyone is semi united and has the same expectation of outcome and affect / effect when using something.



....I just wondered if anyone else did that or if the correspondences were like a set structure that you had to follow closely.



I wish more people would respond so you were getting a more balanced set of opinins but as it is mine it is slanted to my perspective so take it with a grain of salft.

I think again it depends upon reason as to the why of a thing. If I want all focused on a united result or singular result then we all need to have the same expectations of what a thing will do and how to do it.

As a traditional Witch / Shamanistic practioner I usually do things alone so my belief and expectations are the only force that matters in the moment. So it just seems logical to me to use what works the best for me and not what another may think is the best.



Actually I'm quite confused as to the difference between calling the elements and calling the watch towers.


For me the notion of the watch towers is the calling of the supposed sacred directions and houses associated with them. When calling in the elements they are included in the houses and associations with them.

The guardians of the watch towers are the strongest element in each house to me. They sort of watch over the given direction and sphere of influence.

For me the elements are basic concepts but also a feel or energy that represents each element as a collective whole. For instance things of fire feel that same to me regardless whether it be a formal flame or dragon or other fire inspired notion.

It is only the intensity I associated with it of feel from it that changes for me. I can asure you when I watched a volcano erupt that was a fire element but huge in sensation and vibration which dwarfed the other fire elements present near me.



whether I had a circle or not because I would be working with them and it would feel right to call them.



I seldom if ever cast a circle so I really do not realte to that notion. If I do use a circle it is always outlined by the glow of the fire and expands or receeds with the fire's glow.



By Wheel of the Year I meant the 8 Wiccan Sabbats. I'd like to know what holidays Traditional Witches did celebrate...I'm not sure Trad Witches see Samhain as their new year or if they only celebrate the solstices and equinoxes.


But see even that is a falsehood to a degree. The original wheel only had 4 if I recall correctly. The other's were added by later groups.

The other notion varies from person to person and group to group. Me, I suppose I am more Nordic influenced in that I see Nov 1/2 as the spiritual new year start not Oct 31. Yet I also recognize Jan 1 as the start of the traditional year.

You also have to remember that traditional does not mean only Pagan many other traditional forms are based off of the Christian cycles and recognize and honor those dates only. Some merge Christian structure ontop of older systems, the Santerian or other Afro-Caribean systems fall in here. Sorry can't give to much detail there for I simply do not know it.



It seems that there is so much to go by that something would conflict with something else when trying to figure out when to do the spell...I'm just wondering how people put it all together.



Some use it as a basis to decide it a spell or casting is really needed. If all the parts line up then it is called for it they do not then an alternate means maybe called for or something of less demand.

It also causes the caster to really look at his/her work and intent in what they are doing and how they will go about doing it. If all the componets are greater than the whole then the whole is only as effective as the intent and preparation put into acheiving it.

I suppose one could think of it as simply as the fire triangle. All componets are needed to make the fire, yet remove a single one and the fire will fail. The componet being, Fuel, Heat, oxygen to get Flame. that is a basic spell.

Yet the more advanced will state that Wood is wood, but dry oak burns hotter than spruce. Spruce smokes more than cedar yet less than pine. Pine burns faster and hotter but oak burns longer and more evenly.

I think you get the idea.



...but I want to stick to basics and just be simple for the most part, like those from the past....


Traditional Witchcraft is not simple or easy and is actually as complicated and structured as any new system on the books. The problem lies in that most see it as simple folk arts and crafts and tend to think if the practioners as being uneducated and backwards in manner.

It is fool's folly to think they did not have structure and correspondence's they worked and lived by. Yet their sturctre was built around growing seasons, notions of when things were stronger or weaker within thier life cycles. When was the proper time to do a thing and different times called for different means of doing such.

[Deerwoman]

I'd like to know if Traditional Witches ever used any correspondences? I've read that Trad Witches don't normally call upon the elements like in Wicca....but like certain herbs are supposed to have certain properties and used for certain spells/rituals....and certain stones have certain properties, so I was wondering if those apply in Trad Witchcraft.
I and other TW's I have met use a combination of our own personal correspondences as well as any information that can be gleaned from regional folklore and ethnobotany.


And also, I don't think a lot of Trad Witches celebrate the Wheel of the Year because I think that came from Gardner...
We mainly call them "festivals" rather than sabbats and which ones are celebrated vary from witch to witch, group to group. There is some consistency in the celebration of the solstices, equinoxes and of course Beltane and Samhain. All of the Wiccan "sabbats" are actually historically legitimate festivals except for Mabon which is essentially a combination of three separate harvest festivals - which have nothing to do with the mythological figure of Mabon. Many TW's and other witches also celebrate festivals for deities, spirits, and mysteries.


...but are they into Esbats? Do certain phases of the moon mean anything to a Trad Witch or would they do a certain kind of spell at any time without use of the moon?
Most would probably cringe at the word esbats, but many TW's do follow the moon phases, whether for magical workings, gardening, fertility, job hunting etc. But you wouldn't find many casting a circle and performing a special ritual every full or new moon. I've personally found that TW's are more concerned with where and the time of day for spells - for example thresholds between worlds are considered very important making for potent magic. A threshold can be an actual doorway; dusk, dawn, or midnight; a place with land, sea, and sky all represented; a tree (ie hawthorn, oak, and ash); a time of year (solstices and equinoxes); etc.


Like sometimes, not only do some people do certain spells at the waxing moon or waning, etc. But they do it on a certain day within that moon phase and within a certain planetary hour...they use the moon in astrological signs as well and I really don't know how you can use all that together. I don't find it necessary and I'd like to know if Trad Witches do or what they do find necessary. Also, why do some people use that many correspondences?
It's very common in ceremonial magic to use that many correspondences and be concerned with planetary movements and astrological correspondences. Some witches swear by using them, but I personally am a folk-magic practitioner and use what I have here on earth.


Actually I'm quite confused as to the difference between calling the elements and calling the watch towers. In one book it said calling the watch towers is just another name for calling the elements....and in another book when the rituals are calling the elements, it says "Elemental Air, Elemental Fire," etc., and I thought elementals were divine aspects of an element like sylphs or whatever. I would just feel comfortable calling on the four elements, whether I had a circle or not because I would be working with them and it would feel right to call them.
The "watchtowers" also come from ceremonial magic, namely Enochian, which was picked up by Crowley. They are more like magical wards set up during ritual to protect the practitioner. Wiccans use the elements as wards in the form of elemental gardians - but many use the ceremonial magic slang of "watchtowers" "guardians" or "corners".

Personally as a TW I do not use the elements as wards nor do I call guardians when creating sacred space. This is mainly because I do not follow the Wiccan association of the pentagram with the elements and the fifth element of spirit. Instead I use element correspondences in my magical workings with herbs, oils, and other ingredients.


Anyway, thanks for helping me out. Sorry about all the questions. I've just noticed a lot of differences between Wicca and Trad Witches lately. I'm trying to sort it all out. I studied Wicca for years, thinking it was a revival of what the ancient "witches" before us did, when it really doesn't seem to have much in common with it at all. A lot of it is more complicated and structured, and that's fine for some people...but I want to stick to basics and just be simple for the most part, like those from the past....So I'm just trying to figure out the actual differences between Wicca and the Traditional Witches and figure out what is truly necessary.
Questions are good, questioning what you know is good. Not conforming and thinking outside the mold is good. Do not become disillusioned with Wicca, it truly does contain real folklore and even very old shamanic practices - but as the origins and reasons for many of the "old" practices isn't questioned or searched for by the newer generations, they have been forgotten and many of the practices in Gardner's original craft have been left behind. Gardner was a well-travelled and well-read man, he really new his craft and lore.

You are right, Traditional Witchcraft is simpler and more back to basics and back to the natural world. However this simplicity comes with the price of having to work harder to find the real folklore, old practices, rites and working constantly with the natural world. There isn't really any one work that covers it all - and unfortunately you won't find any of the resource materials at your local big box bookstore. My best advice for someone interested in Traditional Witchcraft is to learn how and where to research.

Slainte!

[HolyDiver777]

I think most that are on thier own pathwalk do that to a great extent. Let's face it if it doesn't feel right or work for us not much use in doing it.

I think the reason for correspondences in Wicca (and other group oriented traditions) is so that everyone is semi united and has the same expectation of outcome and affect / effect when using something.



I wish more people would respond so you were getting a more balanced set of opinins but as it is mine it is slanted to my perspective so take it with a grain of salft.

I think again it depends upon reason as to the why of a thing. If I want all focused on a united result or singular result then we all need to have the same expectations of what a thing will do and how to do it.

As a traditional Witch / Shamanistic practioner I usually do things alone so my belief and expectations are the only force that matters in the moment. So it just seems logical to me to use what works the best for me and not what another may think is the best.



For me the notion of the watch towers is the calling of the supposed sacred directions and houses associated with them. When calling in the elements they are included in the houses and associations with them.

The guardians of the watch towers are the strongest element in each house to me. They sort of watch over the given direction and sphere of influence.

For me the elements are basic concepts but also a feel or energy that represents each element as a collective whole. For instance things of fire feel that same to me regardless whether it be a formal flame or dragon or other fire inspired notion.

It is only the intensity I associated with it of feel from it that changes for me. I can asure you when I watched a volcano erupt that was a fire element but huge in sensation and vibration which dwarfed the other fire elements present near me.



I seldom if ever cast a circle so I really do not realte to that notion. If I do use a circle it is always outlined by the glow of the fire and expands or receeds with the fire's glow.



But see even that is a falsehood to a degree. The original wheel only had 4 if I recall correctly. The other's were added by later groups.

The other notion varies from person to person and group to group. Me, I suppose I am more Nordic influenced in that I see Nov 1/2 as the spiritual new year start not Oct 31. Yet I also recognize Jan 1 as the start of the traditional year.

You also have to remember that traditional does not mean only Pagan many other traditional forms are based off of the Christian cycles and recognize and honor those dates only. Some merge Christian structure ontop of older systems, the Santerian or other Afro-Caribean systems fall in here. Sorry can't give to much detail there for I simply do not know it.



Some use it as a basis to decide it a spell or casting is really needed. If all the parts line up then it is called for it they do not then an alternate means maybe called for or something of less demand.

It also causes the caster to really look at his/her work and intent in what they are doing and how they will go about doing it. If all the componets are greater than the whole then the whole is only as effective as the intent and preparation put into acheiving it.

I suppose one could think of it as simply as the fire triangle. All componets are needed to make the fire, yet remove a single one and the fire will fail. The componet being, Fuel, Heat, oxygen to get Flame. that is a basic spell.

Yet the more advanced will state that Wood is wood, but dry oak burns hotter than spruce. Spruce smokes more than cedar yet less than pine. Pine burns faster and hotter but oak burns longer and more evenly.

I think you get the idea.



Traditional Witchcraft is not simple or easy and is actually as complicated and structured as any new system on the books. The problem lies in that most see it as simple folk arts and crafts and tend to think if the practioners as being uneducated and backwards in manner.

It is fool's folly to think they did not have structure and correspondence's they worked and lived by. Yet their sturctre was built around growing seasons, notions of when things were stronger or weaker within thier life cycles. When was the proper time to do a thing and different times called for different means of doing such.

Thank you for your posts. They've been really helpful. I like talking to people about their beliefs more than reading books because I find there are so many different ways to look at things.

What I'm most interested in, I'll probably never get to know. There are people today who call themselves Traditional Witches, but the Traditional Witches I want to know about are the ones referred to as "the wise ones," before the Witchcraft persecutions ever started. I don't think these people ever referred to themselves as Witches because it was seen as a very negative term. Though they may have worshipped other gods and worked with nature, its herbs, etc., I don't think they thought they were Witches, even if this was a religion for them.

So then I know that when Wicca came about it was like a revival of Witchcraft for some and some of it would have things in common with the old ways, such as herbal workings, worship of more than one god, and whatever else. I've just noticed a lot of differences in Wicca today from what was once practiced. "Witches" long ago didn't have karma or the Rede, I don't know if they used circles, but if so I don't think it was as elaborate as some Wiccan circles, and I don't think many actual tools were used, nor do I think they said "merry meet and merry part" or "blessed be" all the time.

I don't think these things in Wicca are annoying or whatever and I hope I don't come off that way to Wiccans. I'm just trying to find out what else is out there because some things in Wicca don't feel right for me. Like for example, it seems Wicca mostly focuses on the "light" side of things. But I see darkness as a part of every human being and as a part of nature that shouldn't be forgotten about. I think you should work with darkness as much as light. I don't like the Rede for myself because I think we should all think for ourselves and follow our intuition, not be bound by something very much like a law.

So anyway, as you can probably tell, I'm having a bit of trouble placing myself lately. I don't want to call myself Eclectic because so many do that already and I think it's the easy way out for some. I do know that I'm pretty influenced by Green Witchcraft though, but I'm not sure if my practice will turn into simply folk magic or an actual religion. But thanks for your replies. I appreciate it. :)

[HolyDiver777]

I and other TW's I have met use a combination of our own personal correspondences as well as any information that can be gleaned from regional folklore and ethnobotany.


We mainly call them "festivals" rather than sabbats and which ones are celebrated vary from witch to witch, group to group. There is some consistency in the celebration of the solstices, equinoxes and of course Beltane and Samhain. All of the Wiccan "sabbats" are actually historically legitimate festivals except for Mabon which is essentially a combination of three separate harvest festivals - which have nothing to do with the mythological figure of Mabon. Many TW's and other witches also celebrate festivals for deities, spirits, and mysteries.

What about Lughnassadh? I know that's a celebration for the Celtic God Lugh....for someone who wouldn't use a Celtic pantheon I dont' see why they would celebrate this one.



Most would probably cringe at the word esbats, but many TW's do follow the moon phases, whether for magical workings, gardening, fertility, job hunting etc. But you wouldn't find many casting a circle and performing a special ritual every full or new moon. I've personally found that TW's are more concerned with where and the time of day for spells - for example thresholds between worlds are considered very important making for potent magic. A threshold can be an actual doorway; dusk, dawn, or midnight; a place with land, sea, and sky all represented; a tree (ie hawthorn, oak, and ash); a time of year (solstices and equinoxes); etc.

Well see, esbats is another Wiccan term that I thought might have just been a revival of Traditional Witchcraft. I wasn't sure, so thanks for clearing that up for me. Really I didn't know if Trad Witches were like Wiccans in using a full moon or new moon for certain rituals or if it really mattered at all.



It's very common in ceremonial magic to use that many correspondences and be concerned with planetary movements and astrological correspondences. Some witches swear by using them, but I personally am a folk-magic practitioner and use what I have here on earth.

If I did use any correspondences, it would be only to use the moon for a guide as to when to do certain spells. I think the full moon lasts 3 days, so during those 3 days I feel I could do the spell needed at any time, not necessarily have to do it a certain time of day within a certain hour. But also, if I had an urgent need for a certain ritual, such as a healing one, I don't think I should have to wait all month for the right moon phase. Shouldn't I be able to do it at any time?



The "watchtowers" also come from ceremonial magic, namely Enochian, which was picked up by Crowley. They are more like magical wards set up during ritual to protect the practitioner. Wiccans use the elements as wards in the form of elemental gardians - but many use the ceremonial magic slang of "watchtowers" "guardians" or "corners".

Personally as a TW I do not use the elements as wards nor do I call guardians when creating sacred space. This is mainly because I do not follow the Wiccan association of the pentagram with the elements and the fifth element of spirit. Instead I use element correspondences in my magical workings with herbs, oils, and other ingredients.

Yeah also I didn't know if the pentagram had once been a traditional symbol for Witches or if Wiccans came up with it. I do know it's been around for a very long time....I think it might have once been a Christian symbol or protection. I'm not really sure anymore, but since it has been around a while I wondered if the old practicioners did use it.

When you say you use element corespondences in your workings, do you mean you use something to represent the elements every time, like some call the elements every time? Like uh...I guess instead of calling them do you just set something out that stands for them or only worry about that when you're working with them?



Questions are good, questioning what you know is good. Not conforming and thinking outside the mold is good. Do not become disillusioned with Wicca, it truly does contain real folklore and even very old shamanic practices - but as the origins and reasons for many of the "old" practices isn't questioned or searched for by the newer generations, they have been forgotten and many of the practices in Gardner's original craft have been left behind. Gardner was a well-travelled and well-read man, he really new his craft and lore.

You are right, Traditional Witchcraft is simpler and more back to basics and back to the natural world. However this simplicity comes with the price of having to work harder to find the real folklore, old practices, rites and working constantly with the natural world. There isn't really any one work that covers it all - and unfortunately you won't find any of the resource materials at your local big box bookstore. My best advice for someone interested in Traditional Witchcraft is to learn how and where to research.

Slainte!

Yes, I have found a few similarities with Wicca and traditional practices. I've just noticed a lot that is Wiccan that is not traditional, such as the belief in karma and the ceremonial rituals. What once attracted me to Wicca was the fact that I thought it was all a revival of old practices and the way for me to find my way in life is to go back just about as far as I can go and start from the same place those people once did. I wouldn't want to be in a newer religion. I like tradition. It feels right to me.

Anyway, thanks for respondign to my post. Everyone's helped me out quite a bit.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

HolyDiver 777 Wrote:


Thank you for your posts. They've been really helpful


Your welcome.



There are people today who call themselves Traditional Witches, but the Traditional Witches I want to know about are the ones referred to as "the wise ones," before the Witchcraft persecutions ever started


I think what your looking at here is what many would call folk healers or similar names. They used thier knowledge of herbs, natural things and such to make their potions, or heal the sick, etc. They were called Cunning Ones, Wise Women, The Wise Ones, all sorts of names depending upon region and area.

The thing to remember is that many in the Witchcraft persecutions were not witches and actually were heretics. People that swore to Christanity but also spoke against the church beliefs. The Knights Templar are a great example of a group hunted and killed in that time frame.


I don't think they thought they were Witches, even if this was a religion for them.


I really do not know of to many in history or documents that claimed they were witches or actually followed any notion that tied thier craft to a relgion. It was a craft that was maybe supported by relgions but relgion was not the source of their craft skills or knowledge. Though later folk healers and suck would incorporate things from their religion into their craft.

PowWow magics and many mountain magics are examples of the combination of folklore and religious incantations.



I've just noticed a lot of differences in Wicca today from what was once practiced. "Witches" long ago didn't have karma or the Rede


While not Karma as defined by today, the healers and seer's of old did understand and acknowledge the law of cause and effect. They knew that certain things caused certain conditions or that certain actions would result in certain outcomes.



and I don't think many actual tools were used,


I think there were many actual tools used, however, I also think they were more often than not the tools used in the home and probally everyday. Especially in the notion of hearth witches or kitchen type witches though that is not the name they would have used.



So anyway, as you can probably tell, I'm having a bit of trouble placing myself lately


That is one that all of us go through many times infact. On some days we are the dog on other days we are the dogs tail. Every once in awhile it also seems we are no more than flees on the dogs back and life being the dog it simply tries to scratch us of as we loose our place.



..but the Traditional Witches I want to know about are the ones referred to as "the wise ones," before ..


On a side note if you read some of the old tales and such you can get a understanding of what they did and how they worked. Granted the ones in the tales are also later found out to be goddess or such but many times the practice is the same.

Even some of the childrens tales that survive give some clues to old stories and how the world was seen and the supernatural that worked in it.



Like for example, it seems Wicca mostly focuses on the "light" side of things.


That one I think is a more modern notion that arrive with the onset of the eccletic notion of Wicca and the solitary. Prior to that it was a notion of balance and to have that one must look at and understand the two facets.

Yet I am not now nor have I ever been a Wiccan so that is just from observation and time.



I do know that I'm pretty influenced by Green Witchcraft though, but I'm not sure if my practice will turn into simply folk magic or an actual religion


That is up to you to decide. Yet know that to be a witch of any sort does not require one to be based in or upon a religious system. Whether you do or do not accept a religious componet to your craft will not lesson or change what you feel or do in most instances. I say most for some folk beliefs revolve around the usage of religous notions to enable or increase their power.

[Deerwoman]

What about Lughnassadh? I know that's a celebration for the Celtic God Lugh....for someone who wouldn't use a Celtic pantheon I dont' see why they would celebrate this one.
You answered your own question there ;)


But also, if I had an urgent need for a certain ritual, such as a healing one, I don't think I should have to wait all month for the right moon phase. Shouldn't I be able to do it at any time?
You don't have to wait for a full, new or dark moon. I simply follow the waning and waxing of the moon and save the full moon for a working I want to be especially potent - usually for blessings or healing work. If it's a waning moon but you wish to do waxing moon magic - perhaps pick an appropriate threshold time or place instead?


Yeah also I didn't know if the pentagram had once been a traditional symbol for Witches or if Wiccans came up with it. I do know it's been around for a very long time....I think it might have once been a Christian symbol or protection. I'm not really sure anymore, but since it has been around a while I wondered if the old practicioners did use it.
The pentagram is preChristian, a very ancient symbol. It is mostly attributed to ancient Greece, but it goes as far back as ancient Babylonia and the Sumerians. Christians loved to adopt pagan symbols into their own faith, the pentagram was just one of many. For the Sumerians it was originally thought to be a character for writing, but also to symbolise planets and the Goddess Ishtar. The Greeks thought it represent mathematical perfection and named it hygeia meaning health. It has been used as a symbol of protection for millenia, but was popular with European occultists in the Middle Ages and onward - which is how it worked it's way into Wicca and eventually all forms of witchcraft and ceremonial magic.


When you say you use element corespondences in your workings, do you mean you use something to represent the elements every time, like some call the elements every time? Like uh...I guess instead of calling them do you just set something out that stands for them or only worry about that when you're working with them?
No, I mean if I am performing a working I will use element correspondences in the form of ingredients - for example if I am doing a prosperity spell I would use herbs corresponding to the earth element and probably bury all the ingredients. If I were to do a spell for creativity and inspiration I would use herbs corresponding to the fire element and burn all the ingredients for the working. I follow the definition of elements more in the vein of the ancient Greek perception of them, and how they are used in older forms of tarot as well. Having said all this though, there are traditional witches who will have representations of all the elements on their altar or in their ritual working space.

[HolyDiver777]

HolyDiver 777 Wrote:


Your welcome.



I think what your looking at here is what many would call folk healers or similar names. They used thier knowledge of herbs, natural things and such to make their potions, or heal the sick, etc. They were called Cunning Ones, Wise Women, The Wise Ones, all sorts of names depending upon region and area.

The thing to remember is that many in the Witchcraft persecutions were not witches and actually were heretics. People that swore to Christanity but also spoke against the church beliefs. The Knights Templar are a great example of a group hunted and killed in that time frame.



I really do not know of to many in history or documents that claimed they were witches or actually followed any notion that tied thier craft to a relgion. It was a craft that was maybe supported by relgions but relgion was not the source of their craft skills or knowledge. Though later folk healers and suck would incorporate things from their religion into their craft.

PowWow magics and many mountain magics are examples of the combination of folklore and religious incantations.



While not Karma as defined by today, the healers and seer's of old did understand and acknowledge the law of cause and effect. They knew that certain things caused certain conditions or that certain actions would result in certain outcomes.



I think there were many actual tools used, however, I also think they were more often than not the tools used in the home and probally everyday. Especially in the notion of hearth witches or kitchen type witches though that is not the name they would have used.



That is one that all of us go through many times infact. On some days we are the dog on other days we are the dogs tail. Every once in awhile it also seems we are no more than flees on the dogs back and life being the dog it simply tries to scratch us of as we loose our place.



On a side note if you read some of the old tales and such you can get a understanding of what they did and how they worked. Granted the ones in the tales are also later found out to be goddess or such but many times the practice is the same.

Even some of the childrens tales that survive give some clues to old stories and how the world was seen and the supernatural that worked in it.



That one I think is a more modern notion that arrive with the onset of the eccletic notion of Wicca and the solitary. Prior to that it was a notion of balance and to have that one must look at and understand the two facets.

Yet I am not now nor have I ever been a Wiccan so that is just from observation and time.



That is up to you to decide. Yet know that to be a witch of any sort does not require one to be based in or upon a religious system. Whether you do or do not accept a religious componet to your craft will not lesson or change what you feel or do in most instances. I say most for some folk beliefs revolve around the usage of religous notions to enable or increase their power.

Ah, thanks again for your response. You seem really insightful and seem to know quite a bit. I just noticed you also live in WV. Hope it's not Lincoln County...depressing place. lol. But some places in WV are quite nice and serene, and it's very easy to get close to nature around here, so that's a plus. :)

[HolyDiver777]

You answered your own question there ;)


You don't have to wait for a full, new or dark moon. I simply follow the waning and waxing of the moon and save the full moon for a working I want to be especially potent - usually for blessings or healing work. If it's a waning moon but you wish to do waxing moon magic - perhaps pick an appropriate threshold time or place instead?


The pentagram is preChristian, a very ancient symbol. It is mostly attributed to ancient Greece, but it goes as far back as ancient Babylonia and the Sumerians. Christians loved to adopt pagan symbols into their own faith, the pentagram was just one of many. For the Sumerians it was originally thought to be a character for writing, but also to symbolise planets and the Goddess Ishtar. The Greeks thought it represent mathematical perfection and named it hygeia meaning health. It has been used as a symbol of protection for millenia, but was popular with European occultists in the Middle Ages and onward - which is how it worked it's way into Wicca and eventually all forms of witchcraft and ceremonial magic.


No, I mean if I am performing a working I will use element correspondences in the form of ingredients - for example if I am doing a prosperity spell I would use herbs corresponding to the earth element and probably bury all the ingredients. If I were to do a spell for creativity and inspiration I would use herbs corresponding to the fire element and burn all the ingredients for the working. I follow the definition of elements more in the vein of the ancient Greek perception of them, and how they are used in older forms of tarot as well. Having said all this though, there are traditional witches who will have representations of all the elements on their altar or in their ritual working space.

I'm glad I started this thread. I feel like I've learned a lot in these posts. Thank you so much! :)

[HolyDiver777]

This is a link to some essays by Trad witches in our corner of the world. I dont think the essays specifically address your issue but you might find some things that interest you.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~liossa/home/contents.htm

The essays look very interesting and I plan to read them. Thank you. :smile:

[LadyeFalcon]

The fly in the ointment here. Is there really such a thing as traditional witchcraft?
A 'traditional witch' from say perhaps Pa, beliefs and methodology would differ very much from a traditional witch from Louisiana, or Scotland for that matter.

[Deerwoman]

The fly in the ointment here. Is there really such a thing as traditional witchcraft? A 'traditional witch' from say perhaps Pa, beliefs and methodology would differ very much from a traditional witch from Louisiana, or Scotland for that matter.
Yes, there really is such a thing, and yes even though there are specific traditions within traditional witchcraft, the practices and beliefs of individual practitioners would vary greatly - but they are still traditional witches. How can all the traditions of Traditional Witchcraft exist if there's no such thing? There is a common core, and if one don't understand it then one isn't a traditional witch. It is the same with Wicca, the beliefs and practices of those who are members of a Wiccan tradition will vary greatly from individual practitioners - but those individuals still consider themselves Wiccan. There are many types of Wiccans these days, who's to say which one is a real Wiccan and which is not?

[LadyeFalcon]

There is a common core, and if one don't understand it then one isn't a traditional witch.

What would that common core be? I am not trying to be argumentative just curious as to how one would define it. For example I have an acquaintance that practices HooDoo as was taught to her through her family. Would that be considered traditional witchcraft if so what would the core belief between that tradition and say for example mountain magick be?

[HolyDiver777]

What would that common core be? I am not trying to be argumentative just curious as to how one would define it. For example I have an acquaintance that practices HooDoo as was taught to her through her family. Would that be considered traditional witchcraft if so what would the core belief between that tradition and say for example mountain magick be?

I'm sure someone will get back toyou with a better answer, but I'd like to try to take a stab at this until that person comes along. The core beliefs of Wicca would be believing in a God and Goddess and that your magick should harm none. Whereas with what is called Traditional Witchcraft, the core would be following your mind/heart/intuition, rather than having a code such as The Rede.

Also I would think someone who practices HooDoo or whatever else wouldn't necessarily be a Traditional Witch based on the fact they were taught from family. I would call that hereditary.

Then again, I could be wrong, but I wanted to actually try to answer someone's question instead of asking one this time because I do at least think I'm on the right path here. lol.

[LadyeFalcon]

I'm sure someone will get back toyou with a better answer, but I'd like to try to take a stab at this until that person comes along. The core beliefs of Wicca would be believing in a God and Goddess and that your magick should harm none. Whereas with what is called Traditional Witchcraft, the core would be following your mind/heart/intuition, rather than having a code such as The Rede.




Thank you for your insight. I think you are right I joined a traditional witch forum and have been reading through the post on the forum.
The way I understand it now is that it is not necessarily based on hereditary witchcraft, but rather it is considered a reconstruction of what witchcraft may have been like before it got adopted by Wicca. Which makes more sense, though personally I think that perhaps traditional is not the best label to describe it. Again even then I still feel there are so many varieties, for example some pre Wicca witches do honor the Lord and/or the Lady I have not met many but I have met a few. I think it depends mostly on the area and the culture from whence the tradition comes.

[Deerwoman]

What would that common core be? I am not trying to be argumentative just curious as to how one would define it. For example I have an acquaintance that practices HooDoo as was taught to her through her family. Would that be considered traditional witchcraft if so what would the core belief between that tradition and say for example mountain magick be?Hoodoo I would classify as a form of American witchcraft with African origins. Some traditional witches may incorporate parts of hoodoo into their practices, but Hoodoo itself is a cultural magical tradition. Most Traditional Witchcraft practitioner's paths are of European origin, but not all. Core similarities would be working and communing with spirits, working with elements from nature, ancestor worship, a certain level of animism, and an overall use of folk magic (low magic) as opposed to high magic, but some traditions do use higher magic. Overall I would say Traditional Witchcraft is mainly a path of individuals, families, and very small groups. For a better description of core and common TW practice I'd read through this thread:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=211008

Also try this older Circle of Teaching class which covered Traditional Witchcraft and some of the traditions within it:

http://mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=390


The way I understand it now is that it is not necessarily based on hereditary witchcraft, but rather it is considered a reconstruction of what witchcraft may have been like before it got adopted by Wicca. Which makes more sense, though personally I think that perhaps traditional is not the best label to describe it. Again even then I still feel there are so many varietiesThis might help - Traditional Witchcraft when not referring to specific traditions (1734, Clan of Tubal Cain, Cultus Sabbati), is an umbrella term for varying traditions of witchcraft - some are cultural-based (spaecrafte, seidr, brujeria), some are practice-based (hedgewitchery, green witchery, kitchen witchery, and can be found in other forms of witchcraft), and others are personal traditions unique to the individual. Just like the umbrella term "Paganism" can mean hundreds of different paths and traditions, so can "Traditional Witchcraft" mean an incredible amount of varying paths. Traditional Witchcraft isn't just what witchcraft "may" have been like, but what it "was" like in cases with surviving documentation, oral lore, or practices.

[LadyeFalcon]

Thank you I really found the one link a bit confusing as most of the bullets were listed as a "traditional witch may or may not"...... I just was not getting a sense of it from the list there. Now that I understand it is a reconstruction based on a widely diverse group of practioners it makes more sense.

[Lunacie]

I'm a Wiccan and I'd like to respond to some confusion I've seen about Wicca in this thread, try to correct any misinformation.

Before I get started, I didn't care for the Wiccan Wheel of the Year being called "pseudo" and would like to know where that perspective comes from?

_____________

As to Watchtowers vs Elements, this is my understanding...

The Elements are Air, Fire, Water and Earth and the energies that are associated with each direction (east, south, west, north). Some include Spirit (center) as a fifth element, while some say that is what binds the elements together.

The Elementals are those beings that are associated with that element - such as Undines or mermaids or fish or dolphins or sea turtles or starfish or crabs - and also the qualities that are associated with that element - such as emotions for Water.

The Watchtowers are also called the Guardians and the Old Ones - and these are the highest beings of that particular element. In Ceremonial Magic these were the archangels.
_____________

Gardners group originally only celebrated 4 Sabbats: November Eve, February Eve, May Eve, and August Eve, these were the Cross Quarters that fell between the Equinoxes and the Solstices, which are the Quarter Days. At some point, Gardnerian groups began celebrating all 8 Sabbats. There is nothing "false" about this change, all religions change over time.

Gardner's groups did not originally use the names Samhain, Yule, Imbolc, etc, as I understand it. I don't know whether those names were used by his group at some time, or whether other groups began using those names. If anyone else knows this, I'd be interested in learning more of that history.
_____________

There are many forms of Traditional or Family Witchcraft. Wicca was based on one form of Witchcraft with some other elements blended in from other sources. Yes, the Wicca of today is often quite different from what Gardner's coven practiced, but his coven was changing things and doing things differently all the time. Any religion that remains totally static and does not change along with cultural changes is of little value (in my opinion). Fortunately it is natural for religions to grow and change to accomodate the needs of it's followers.
_____________

As far the Wiccan Rede - it's not a "Law" that tells us how to behave. It's advice that encourages us to think for ourselves, not a rule that must be followed in letter and in spirit. It does NOT say "don't hurt anybody or anything". It says, "if what you're thinking about doing doesn't harm anyone, then feel free to go right ahead and do it."

What is unspoken, but understood, is the thought that if what you're thinking about doing would (or even might) harm someone, then you'd better be sure that there isn't a better way of doing it, and that you're prepared to deal with the consequences if you go ahead and do it.
_____________

Karma is not a traditional Wiccan belief. Somewhere along the line somebody decided that Karma means the same thing as the Law of Returns - which is a very real physical law called Cause and Effect. Many of us know that these are actually two different principles.
_____________

As far as Wicca only honoring "the light", that is a recent and somewhat fluffy notion. Traditional Wicca teaches a more balanced approach, which does not advocate the darker nature of humanity but understands that there are times when we must do what must be done.
_____________

There is a thread in the Wiccan Path forum that goes into what are (and are not) the core beliefs and practices of Wicca... here's the linkie. (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=151625)

[LadyeFalcon]

[
QUOTE=Lunacie;3916631]I'm a Wiccan and I'd like to respond to some confusion I've seen about Wicca in this thread, try to correct any misinformation.

Before I get started, I didn't care for the Wiccan Wheel of the Year being called "pseudo" and would like to know where that perspective comes from?

_____________

I am I guess what one would call a hereditary witch. In my family we do honor the Wheel of the Year, though the names and dates are not quite the same as the Wiccan version there are specific traditions and celebrations at specific times of the year. Most families that have an 'agricultural' background do pay attention to the moon cycles and the seasonal'markers'.


As to Watchtowers vs Elements, this is my understanding...

The Elements are Air, Fire, Water and Earth and the energies that are associated with each direction (east, south, west, north). Some include Spirit (center) as a fifth element, while some say that is what binds the elements together.

The Elementals are those beings that are associated with that element - such as Undines or mermaids or fish or dolphins or sea turtles or starfish or crabs - and also the qualities that are associated with that element - such as emotions for Water.

The Watchtowers are also called the Guardians and the Old Ones - and these are the highest beings of that particular element. In Ceremonial Magic these were the archangels.
_____________

Though not done often we would call in on occasions the 'Guardians' Not sure about the Archangels never heard any one in the family talk about them but I am familiar with the Guardians and the The Old ones

[
Q
UOTE]Gardners group originally only celebrated 4 Sabbats: November Eve, February Eve, May Eve, and August Eve, these were the Cross Quarters that fell between the Equinoxes and the Solstices, which are the Quarter Days. At some point, Gardnerian groups began celebrating all 8 Sabbats. There is nothing "false" about this change, all religions change over time.

Gardner's groups did not originally use the names Samhain, Yule, Imbolc, etc, as I understand it. I don't know whether those names were used by his group at some time, or whether other groups began using those names. If anyone else knows this, I'd be interested in learning more of that history.
_____________

There are many forms of Traditional or Family Witchcraft. Wicca was based on one form of Witchcraft with some other elements blended in from other sources. Yes, the Wicca of today is often quite different from what Gardner's coven practiced, but his coven was changing things and doing things differently all the time.
[/QUOTE]

Any religion that remains totally static and does not change along with cultural changes is of little value (in my opinion). Fortunately it is natural for religions to grow and change to accomodate the needs of it's followers.
_____________

Absolutely even in family traditions intermarriages over the generations bring in traditions and knowledge from different cultures. And each generation adapts to these changes and the changes in their environment and the world they live in.



As far the Wiccan Rede - it's not a "Law" that tells us how to behave. It's advice that encourages us to think for ourselves, not a rule that must be followed in letter and in spirit. It does NOT say "don't hurt anybody or anything". It says, "if what you're thinking about doing doesn't harm anyone, then feel free to go right ahead and do it."

What is unspoken, but understood, is the thought that if what you're thinking about doing would (or even might) harm someone, then you'd better be sure that there isn't a better way of doing it, and that you're prepared to deal with the consequences if you go ahead and do it.
_____________


Karma is not a traditional Wiccan belief. Somewhere along the line somebody decided that Karma means the same thing as the Law of Returns - which is a very real physical law called Cause and Effect. Many of us know that these are actually two different principles.
_____________

As far as the hereditary witches all the ones I know understand this as well. As my Aunt taught me 'What goes around comes around' all the hereditary witches I know have a similar belief. Also they have an understanding that many of these 'traditions' are centuries old and have their own 'energy patterns' that have developed with the use of them throughout the centuries and they have 'attachments' and 'codes' one must be aware of before they go 'messing' with them.


As far as Wicca only honoring "the light", that is a recent and somewhat fluffy notion. Traditional Wicca teaches a more balanced approach, which does not advocate the darker nature of humanity but understands that there are times when we must do what must be done.
_____________

I have a very dear friend whom is Wiccan she was my first teacher outside of my family and is one of the most powerful women I know. She prefers to walk a balanced, centered and peaceful path, but she knows how to protect her own when the need arises and will.


There is a thread in the Wiccan Path forum that goes into what are (and are not) the core beliefs and practices of Wicca... here's the linkie. (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=151625)[/QUOTE]

Thank you for clarifying this though I trained with a Wiccan Priestess that was several decades ago lol my memory is not that good and as I am not Wiccan I did not feel I was qualified to clarify the misconceptions.

I am not sure how old this 'traditional witchcraft' path is I understand it is drawing from a variety of older traditions, I am curious to see how it evolves over the next few decades as more and more hereditary traditions are incorporated. I know as it is now my tradition does not quite 'fit' in with the path.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Lunacie wrote:



Before I get started, I didn't care for the Wiccan Wheel of the Year being called "pseudo" and would like to know where that perspective comes from?



That would be my perspective of a wheel that honors holidays that are tied to land events and cycles yet the observance of such is not given usually in a time that reflects the changes for the global perspective. Nor does it recognize the unique features associated with each growing place, and cycles associated with those places.

While to other's I agree it may seem a factual wheel to me who follows more of a shamanic / GreenWitchcraft pathwalk it is psuedo. It does not honor, fall upon nor recognize the migration wheel, the growing wheel, the seasonal wheel, the solar wheel nor the lunar wheel. Yet all those wheel's were instrumental in marking and guiding the cycle of the year. Each of which are also dynamic wheel's with significant variances depending upon region and have no set pattern or cycle though they do have a limited margin of change.

Things were not set so that this occured on this date or time. It more so fell within a given range period and was further supported by actions occuring on all the wheels, and the inter action of said wheels.

[Lunacie]

Lunacie wrote:



That would be my perspective of a wheel that honors holidays that are tied to land events and cycles yet the observance of such is not given usually in a time that reflects the changes for the global perspective. Nor does it recognize the unique features associated with each growing place, and cycles associated with those places.

While to other's I agree it may seem a factual wheel to me who follows more of a shamanic / GreenWitchcraft pathwalk it is psuedo. It does not honor, fall upon nor recognize the migration wheel, the growing wheel, the seasonal wheel, the solar wheel nor the lunar wheel. Yet all those wheel's were instrumental in marking and guiding the cycle of the year. Each of which are also dynamic wheel's with significant variances depending upon region and have no set pattern or cycle though they do have a limited margin of change.

Things were not set so that this occured on this date or time. It more so fell within a given range period and was further supported by actions occuring on all the wheels, and the inter action of said wheels.

I have seen that many Wiccans use all those different wheels (or some of them) to figure the dates to have their celebrations. I have seen many others question whether the dates should be similar even from different longitudes and latitudes.

Some of us understand the cycle varies from time to time and from place to place, but because of the limitations placed on us by our lives and our jobs and our families, we find a time when we can gather to celebrate and Turn the Wheel of the Year and our intentions are just as heartfelt as those who take the time to do the calculations.

Those who celebrate on a certain date just because that is what this books says to do or that website says to do are indeed following a false wheel, but I think it is a bit extreme to say that all Wiccans are following a false wheel.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

but I think it is a bit extreme to say that all Wiccans are following a false wheel.


Not saying that at all. I use the term pseudo to denote a wheel that is based upon selected dates used to indicate when to do a thing not necessary representative of the thing(s) they are honoring. Dates chosen and defined by man as periods they utilize to recognize certain things.

Dates that one may say are soft coded into a human inspired calendar to mark points of reference. Not hard coded as the natural wheels are and beyond man's general influence.

For instance the period roughly 25 Oct - 03 Nov has many observances to mark significant points. Some fall before the 31st some after, yet each unique to the society that selected the date and reason for observance on their selected date. Yet I say they are all pseudo honoring for they mark a point selected by man to recognize the event, not a natural occurrence that happens naturally regardless of whether man observes it or not.

In essence the Equinox will occur when it occurs no mater what we may say as it is tied to a formal wheel rotation. Though we may select some point to honor it on a set schedule.



..we find a time when we can gather to celebrate and Turn the Wheel of the Year and our intentions are just as heartfelt as those who take the time to do the calculations.



I would never say they are not. I realize that it is not always possible to observe a solar, lunar, etc type event on the exact day all the time and that we must be flexable in our observance. Nor would I ever say those that do not observe on the exact day are any less heartfelt in thier observances.



Those who celebrate on a certain date just because that is what this books says to do or that website says to do are indeed following a false wheel..


I do not disagree at all. Observance without understanding is really no observance at all to me. If all one is doing is following the cook book so to speak then they have no idea of the why or reason of a thing I believe.

Though to me there are basically three categories of things. There are real or true wheels that are marked by natural occurence and events. There are psuedo wheels that are created to idicate an occurance or remind one of it. Then there are false or fake wheels which simply assign some date to a thing though the things may have no purpose or function at the time for what the assignment represents.

[Lunacie]

Hm, I think maybe my sticking point here is the word "pseudo", which I define as "pretend" or "false". The way I would describe holidays that are created by humans rather than natural occurances would be "man made" rather than false or pseudo. They can also have great meaning, but certainly a different kind of meaning from the holidays that celebrate natural occurances. By calling them "psuedo" it seems you are saying that they cannot have any meaning at all. But the way you are defining pseudo may be different from my definition.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

No I use the term in reflection of the imitation or false perspective. To me a wheel based upon man-made holidays is an imitation of the natural wheel but not the natural wheel it imitates. At best it is a cheap copy that attempts to imitate and make one feel like they are part of what is being imitated.



By calling them "pseudo" it seems you are saying that they cannot have any meaning at all.


No not at all. I think the holiday(s) may have great significance or importance to the society or individuals. However, it's not even the holidays themselves I classify as Pseudo only the notion of their placement upon a wheel in comparison to an actual cycling wheel of natural events.

I personally see it as why we create calendars that contain those man made events we find a need to observe. Yet, we do not call those calendars "Wheels". They simply serve to denote things upon an arbituary scale or time line that we as mankind deem of importance. An importance that may rise or fall as our society does, hence their inclusion or removal from our calendars.

[Sparkles]

Cheap copy? Imitation has a power of its own, and often it *can* make one feel as if he or she is a part of what is being imitated.

The term "Wheel," at least for me, represents the cyclical nature of life, rather than the perception of many that life is linear in nature, with a set beginning and ending.

*smile* Words have power, and different definitions have different effects, bring different reactions.

[Lunacie]

Cheap copy? Imitation has a power of its own, and often it *can* make one feel as if he or she is a part of what is being imitated.

The term "Wheel," at least for me, represents the cyclical nature of life, rather than the perception of many that life is linear in nature, with a set beginning and ending.

*smile* Words have power, and different definitions have different effects, bring different reactions.

Yep, I think you and I will have to agree to agree, while MonSno will have to agree to disagree. What modern Pagans celebrate as The Wheel of Life may not be the same thing as the ancients, or even the reconstructionists, celebrate. It may not be an entirely natural Wheel, but it does have value and meaning.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Cheap copy? Imitation has a power of its own, and often it *can* make one feel as if he or she is a part of what is being imitated.


Ah but therein lies the falsehood of the illusion. You are never a part of the cycle regardless of how much one may desire to be so. Remove humans from the planet today and those cycles shall continue their revolution.

We are cogs that survive within the cycles and our understanding and recognition of them is what allows us to work within their cycles. To some extent that awareness is what allows us to exploit or utilize the cycle to our best interest. Yet to be considered a part of the cycle we must have the capacity to cause change in the cycle, that we do not hold. Yes me may disrupt it for short periods of time, but in the long term it shall return to its cycle. Return even if it requires the cycling feature to remove the particle that caused the disruption.

My self I think to try and imitate it only shows our species false sense of flattery of a thing in assuming it really makes us be part of it or like it. Humanity does not like the idea they are but just cogs in a larger wheel and serve no purpose beyond their own needs to the larger cycle of the wheel.

Truthfully, just one more facet of the Christian influence upon Paganism in their dominion over the land and animals upon it perspective, and sense of importance to and within the system.

Our ancestors recognized the cycles and realized they lived within and dependent upon them. They marked the cycle of day, the cycle of birth, the cycle of growing and how it impacted upon them and influenced them but not once did they make the assumption they were equal or actually a part of it, it being the cycle.

[Lunacie]

Ah but therein lies the falsehood of the illusion. You are never a part of the cycle regardless of how much one may desire to be so. Remove humans from the planet today and those cycles shall continue their revolution.

We are cogs that survive within the cycles and our understanding and recognition of them is what allows us to work within their cycles. To some extent that awareness is what allows us to exploit or utilize the cycle to our best interest. Yet to be considered a part of the cycle we must have the capacity to cause change in the cycle, that we do not hold. Yes me may disrupt it for short periods of time, but in the long term it shall return to its cycle. Return even if it requires the cycling feature to remove the particle that caused the disruption.

My self I think to try and imitate it only shows our species false sense of flattery of a thing in assuming it really makes us be part of it or like it. Humanity does not like the idea they are but just cogs in a larger wheel and serve no purpose beyond their own needs to the larger cycle of the wheel.

Truthfully, just one more facet of the Christian influence upon Paganism in their dominion over the land and animals upon it perspective, and sense of importance to and within the system.

Our ancestors recognized the cycles and realized they lived within and dependent upon them. They marked the cycle of day, the cycle of birth, the cycle of growing and how it impacted upon them and influenced them but not once did they make the assumption they were equal or actually a part of it, it being the cycle.



Actually Gardnerian Wicca practiced something called "Turning the Wheel", and believed it was based on a much older practice from when people really thought they needed to petition the gods to use their influence on changing seasons so that it would not stay winter forever. I'm not seeing any Christian influence in that practice.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Actually Gardnerian Wicca practiced something called "Turning the Wheel", and believed it was based on a much older practice from when people really thought they needed to petition the gods to use their influence on changing seasons so that it would not stay winter forever. I'm not seeing any Christian influence in that practice.

But in that scenario one is not taking the position of being a equal part in the wheel. They have recognized they are a cog so to speak and call upon a greater power to influence the wheel. Not only influence but ensure the wheel keeps turning on its cyclic revolution.

Whether it be via sacrifice of goods, prayers and offerings, it was still based upon knowing the cycles and thier influences upon them and their ability to exploit and survive within them. Even recognizing when the cycle seemed to be out of whack or going out, ie extended winters, dry summers, overly damp periods, etc. I suppose to some extent even asking if thier actions were the cause of the minor disturbance in the greater whole.

They did not hold dominion or equality to the system they were living in. Nor did they imitate it but honored it. Observed it and even derstood it based upon those observations and established holy days to honor certain parts or features of it. But those honors were also seen as peak manifestations and thank you for the fruits of thier labors.



What modern Pagans celebrate as The Wheel of Life


Actually were that the term in use I would have no problem or complaints. The wheel of life is based upon points of our progress and importance to us as living creatures. It to me is not defined against a hard cyclic revolution though thier maybe cyclic occurances in it it is soft and linear to a degree as it marks the stages and passages of life.



Yep, I think you and I will have to agree to agree, while MonSno will have to agree to disagree


I do not think there is a reason to agree or disagree as it is just perspective and opinon. As such neither is really right nor wrong only the lense one uses to view the world.

To me the statement means I must recognize an error in your position in opposition to mine. I do not see that error only semantics I suppose on how I define a thing versus how others do.

Ok did that make sense.


It may not be an entirely natural Wheel, but it does have value and meaning.

Oh I never said it didn't value or meaning. I said to me it does not in the manner it is observed. I would never say something holds no value to another. I honestly hope I did not come across with that persception.

[Lunacie]

But in that scenario one is not taking the position of being a equal part in the wheel. They have recognized they are a cog so to speak and call upon a greater power to influence the wheel. Not only influence but ensure the wheel keeps turning on its cyclic revolution.

Whether it be via sacrifice of goods, prayers and offerings, it was still based upon knowing the cycles and thier influences upon them and their ability to exploit and survive within them. Even recognizing when the cycle seemed to be out of whack or going out, ie extended winters, dry summers, overly damp periods, etc. I suppose to some extent even asking if thier actions were the cause of the minor disturbance in the greater whole.

They did not hold dominion or equality to the system they were living in. Nor did they imitate it but honored it. Observed it and even derstood it based upon those observations and established holy days to honor certain parts or features of it. But those honors were also seen as peak manifestations and thank you for the fruits of thier labors.
.

So you understand how Wiccans view the Wheel of the Year and our part in the general nature of... well, nature. And it seems you don't have a problem with it. And yet, you called it "the pseudo Wiccan wheel of the year."

:whatgives I am no closer to understanding this than I was at the start of the discussion.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

So you understand how Wiccans view the Wheel of the Year and our part in the general nature of... well, nature. And it seems you don't have a problem with it. And yet, you called it "the pseudo Wiccan wheel of the year."

:whatgives I am no closer to understanding this than I was at the start of the discussion.

I'll have to work on that and just try to refer to it as the Wiccan Wheel of the year. I guess part of it for me comes from the notion of Shamantic influences and Green Witchcraft influences. When I speak of the Wheel of the year it is always from that influence with hard cycles.

[Lunacie]

I'll have to work on that and just try to refer to it as the Wiccan Wheel of the year. I guess part of it for me comes from the notion of Shamantic influences and Green Witchcraft influences. When I speak of the Wheel of the year it is always from that influence with hard cycles.

Thanks. As a Wiccan, I appreciate that.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Thanks. As a Wiccan, I appreciate that.

Not a problem. Your very welcome.

[Sparkles]

LOL, I go to lunch and miss the conversation.


Ah but therein lies the falsehood of the illusion. You are never a part of the cycle regardless of how much one may desire to be so.


Perhaps you are not able to perceive the connection, but I know that I am intimately a part of the cycle. The peaks and valleys of the processes of my physical body, the ebb and flow of my emotions, the cycles of alertness and then rest that happen within my mind, are all connected to those more grand cycles, as the microcosm is connected to the macrocosm. My lifetime so far, in this time and in this place, has had effects upon the cycles around me, minor effects that may be nullified, but hey, "for the want of a nail . . . ." *wink* If all of humanity were removed from the earth, there would probably still be cycles, but who knows if they would remain exactly the same without the combined expectations of humanity included in the mix?

There are many ways of understanding and perceiving these connections. Unfortuantely, as real as they are to me, they may only qualify as an UPG to you, and that is okay.

And again, words have power. What may be merely semantics to one can be disturbing to others. A deeper understanding of other viewpoints is a good byproduct of this conversation.

Great discussion!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

LOL, I go to lunch and miss the conversation.

See thats why one is supposed to eat at their desk. he he he Well that was the attitude of many of the places (Offices) I worked at over the years.

Perhaps you are not able to perceive the connection, but I know that I am intimately a part of the cycle.

Ah but the question becomes one of are you part of the cycle or mearly experiencing the cycles affect / effect upon your animal self?

Many times we see the collaterial influences and atribute them to "Our" interaction with the cycle yet fail to realize that we exist within the cycles sphere of influence.

For instance I feel the pull of the moon upon my body as it pulls upon the waters of the planet. Yet I am not part of the cycle though I am affected / effected by the movement and revolution of the cycle.

The peaks and valleys of the processes of my physical body, the ebb and flow of my emotions, the cycles of alertness and then rest that happen within my mind, are all connected to those more grand cycles

I agree but the connection is one of it's influence upon our bodies and componet parts not our bodies or componet parts upon the rythme of the cycle.

I think on some primordial level we are still animals and feel and respond to the energy fields created through the cyclic actions. We feel and respond to the pull or push created and it's influence upon our bodies and the emotions that triggers in us.

, as the microcosm is connected to the macrocosm.

I agree the larger cycle is a macro affect and our lives within the event is part of the micorcosim. Yet my experience within the mico is not impacting upon the duration, intensisty or continuation of the macro event.

My lifetime so far, in this time and in this place, has had effects upon the cycles around me

I would disagree to the extent that we affect / effect our immediate surroundings and generate the persception of change upon the larger cycle but I think it only a persception of change.

I may change the landscape about me but it in no way impacts upon the deeper change that continues as part of the erosion process and rate of change from actions occuring in the creation / destruction cycle of the Earth.

Time will destroy all of our actions and constructions upon the face of the earth. Even things we leave in space will eventually be destroyed through some interaction and force of influence.

, minor effects that may be nullified, but hey, "for the want of a nail . . . ." *wink* If all of humanity were removed from the earth, there would probably still be cycles, but who knows if they would remain exactly the same without the combined expectations of humanity included in the mix?

But the expectation is based upon man's persception not the natural cycle that will continue to occur. A hurricane will still form, snow will still fall, the moon will still move about the Earth, the Earth about the Sun. Mountain's will rise and be eroded away. Life will prosper in some area's then decline as habitat is changed, will increase in others as the habitat change creates better conditions for the support of various life forms.

The only exception I can see would be our ability to impact upon timeline of event. Yet with or without our influence the event will still occur.

There are many ways of understanding and perceiving these connections. Unfortuantely, as real as they are to me, they may only qualify as an UPG to you, and that is okay.

I agree.

And again, words have power. What may be merely semantics to one can be disturbing to others. A deeper understanding of other viewpoints is a good byproduct of this conversation.

Great discussion!

Very True.

[Lunacie]

But the expectation is based upon man's persception not the natural cycle that will continue to occur. A hurricane will still form, snow will still fall, the moon will still move about the Earth, the Earth about the Sun. Mountain's will rise and be eroded away. Life will prosper in some area's then decline as habitat is changed, will increase in others as the habitat change creates better conditions for the support of various life forms.



Ah, now I agree that I can't do anything to change whether the sun rises and sets or whether the moon continues to circle the planet. But I've done some Weather Witchin' and had some success in changing the intensity of a storm. New valleys and small mountains have been created by many mining processes. Rivers have been diverted from their natural course. New lakes have been formed by placing dams across a river. Cutting down whole forests has a big impact, as does continuing to build new homes in areas where wildlife must move or adapt.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Ah, now I agree that I can't do anything to change whether the sun rises and sets or whether the moon continues to circle the planet. But I've done some Weather Witchin' and had some success in changing the intensity of a storm. New valleys and small mountains have been created by many mining processes. Rivers have been diverted from their natural course. New lakes have been formed by placing dams across a river. Cutting down whole forests has a big impact, as does continuing to build new homes in areas where wildlife must move or adapt.


True but the cycle of the thing still claims its toll. Valleys have been swallowed whole as man made mountains collapse. Rivers flood and revert to their original flood plains and beds. The dam may slow the flow but never stops it though just as many dams collapse.

Yes deforrestation impacts upon the climate and such but we also know that those same area's will revert to their forrest status if given the chance.

Yet like I said man can cause disruptions to the cycle but never stop it. When we take it to far out of balance nature always strikes us back and reclaims its influence. I personally think the problem is man has a limited memory and repeats the same steps that led to the destruction of our collective goods time and again.

Look at the impact Katrina had to the US, the impact the tidal wave had in the Pacific, the impact that occurs frequently on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers with the spring thaws. We don't stop the cycle we simply get in its way and get smacked because of it.

[Sparkles]

Who said anything about stopping a cycle? Having an effect on a cycle doesn't mean stopping it, by any means. Think of the saying, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a noise?" Being effected by something makes you a part of the cycle. Our sun has an effect on the planets in our solar system; aren't the planets a part of the cycle?

Katrina and the tsunami did smack humanity, fer sher. And both of them are a natural part of the cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth of our planet. But we as humans responded to those events; that makes us a part of the cycle.

*smile* I can't put my thoughts into words as efficiently as Lunacie does, but I think you understand my point. Again, I am enjoying this!!

Happy Friday! *raises glass of wine*

[Lunacie]

True but the cycle of the thing still claims its toll. Valleys have been swallowed whole as man made mountains collapse. Rivers flood and revert to their original flood plains and beds. The dam may slow the flow but never stops it though just as many dams collapse.

Yes deforrestation impacts upon the climate and such but we also know that those same area's will revert to their forrest status if given the chance.

Yet like I said man can cause disruptions to the cycle but never stop it. When we take it to far out of balance nature always strikes us back and reclaims its influence. I personally think the problem is man has a limited memory and repeats the same steps that led to the destruction of our collective goods time and again.

Look at the impact Katrina had to the US, the impact the tidal wave had in the Pacific, the impact that occurs frequently on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers with the spring thaws. We don't stop the cycle we simply get in its way and get smacked because of it.

Sure, Mother Nature may be way more powerful than we puny human beings, but that doesn't mean we don't have any power. How long does it take the earth to recover from a chemical spill? I've seen land that was covered by a salt-water spill that has been barren for a very long time. Will it ever grow green prairie grasses again?

[Lunacie]

Who said anything about stopping a cycle? Having an effect on a cycle doesn't mean stopping it, by any means. Think of the saying, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a noise?" Being effected by something makes you a part of the cycle. Our sun has an effect on the planets in our solar system; aren't the planets a part of the cycle?

Katrina and the tsunami did smack humanity, fer sher. And both of them are a natural part of the cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth of our planet. But we as humans responded to those events; that makes us a part of the cycle.

*smile* I can't put my thoughts into words as efficiently as Lunacie does, but I think you understand my point. Again, I am enjoying this!!

Happy Friday! *raises glass of wine*

You're doing fine!

I agree, there are other ways of affecting a natural cycle than by stopping it in it's tracks.

*raises can of cola* TGIF! :smile:

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Sure, Mother Nature may be way more powerful than we puny human beings, but that doesn't mean we don't have any power. How long does it take the earth to recover from a chemical spill? I've seen land that was covered by a salt-water spill that has been barren for a very long time. Will it ever grow green prairie grasses again?

I think part of the difference I see is that even the items you mentioned are no different than what the cycle of nature has inflicted upon itself already. Inflicted and recovered from over the years. In some ways I think we try to see our influences as seperate and unique, yet many times simply carbon copies of events that occur rather frequently on a geologic scale.

We see severe flooding that damages the ground, even to the point of killing it in the short term (Geologic shorterm). Fire's that ravage and destroy thousands of acres's of woodlands stripping it as bare as any construction done by man. On a grander scale one can look at many of the desert regions and find evidence of their once lush period.

I think perhaps when I define cycles it's more like thinking of an old record with many tracks that lay side by side. Some tracks are so long in duration that we only recognize the influence of them upon our track but they stand so far outside of us that we do not influence them. I suppose time itself might be seen as one of the long duration tracks that plays beyond our ability to inpact upon. We mark its passage but are unable to change it's passage though we try to control the notion of what it is.

Other tracks turn at the same time but the duration is more apparent to us in action. We see the weather cycles and seasonal cycles and try to impact upon them, though they have more impact upon us than we upon them. I believe we tend to think we have done something to them when we use hot houses and such to offset winter, etc. But I think it simply created a imitation of it not changed it.

Yet we do have some impact upon our persception of them, when its cold we oppose it through the use of fire. When the land is void of water we try to bring it in or change what is there already. But all we really do is change the grove a bit but not the cycle that is running.

I suppose the big thing, to me anyway, is that we are not seperate from them but funciton within the currents they create as they cycle through their rotations. Almost symbiotic in nature except I do not see what we give to the relationship. But I think at times we confuse our life cycle and changes as equal to the larger natural cycles that are ever ongoing upon the planet or the solar system for that matter.

Just woke up and started responding so this may ramble in apperance.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Who said anything about stopping a cycle?

No one I believe. I have been saying about changing or influencing the cycle.

Having an effect on a cycle doesn't mean stopping it, by any means.

I agree. I just wonder to what extent we (collectivley) actually think we are doing so?

Think of the saying, "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a noise?"

ah, but then the answer also implies that regardless of man being present the tree will fall it is only our persception of events or what ifs that is acted upon. We know it has an impact and creates a sound, we simply try to see how much of each facet was done and imagine it.

Being effected by something makes you a part of the cycle.

I would say subject to influences from it but not definatley a part of it. When a volcano erupts and sends forth its content it impacts upon us and the landscape but we are not part of the eruption cycle of events only affected by the events.

Our sun has an effect on the planets in our solar system; aren't the planets a part of the cycle?

I agree. But then the planets are part of the cycle and bound to its rules. It is the construction of the cycle that holds them in place and rotates them about the heavens. Yet we also know that an item (rogue) may enter our system and become trapped in the cycle but never part of it until it has become trapped. Yet does the entrapement actually change the cycle it became entrapped in? It definatley changes the cycle of the entrapped item but did it really have an impact upon the larger cycle?


Katrina and the tsunami did smack humanity, fer sher. And both of them are a natural part of the cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth of our planet. But we as humans responded to those events; that makes us a part of the cycle.

I disagree it makes us subject in part to the fallout from said event but not part of the event. We (collectively) had nothing to do with weather pattern that created Katrina or the Earth movement that triggered the fault shift that created the wave. The actual creation process the cycle that was occuring.

I fully agree the events themselves impacted upon us and disrupted the cycle of our lives. But I think it more of a disruption to our cycles than our ability to impact upon that series of actions within the larger cycle that created the event.

*smile* I can't put my thoughts into words as efficiently as Lunacie does, but I think you understand my point.

I can see and understand, yes even relate, to your position. It's just to me it's an argument for how we understand and acknowledge our place within the larger natural cycles that occur about us daily.

Again, I am enjoying this!!

So am I. I do admit I am sort of anal in analzying things so I tend to break things down to the smallest part possible.

Happy Friday! *raises glass of wine*

Didn't see this till Saturday morning so will have to pass on the wine and take coffee instead. Cheers!

[Lunacie]

Who said anything about stopping a cycle? Having an effect on a cycle doesn't mean stopping it, by any means.


No one I believe. I have been saying about changing or influencing the cycle.


Uh - yeah you did.

Here's where you used the word "stop" (bolding mine)...


True but the cycle of the thing still claims its toll. Valleys have been swallowed whole as man made mountains collapse. Rivers flood and revert to their original flood plains and beds. The dam may slow the flow but never stops it though just as many dams collapse.

Yes deforrestation impacts upon the climate and such but we also know that those same area's will revert to their forrest status if given the chance.

Yet like I said man can cause disruptions to the cycle but never stop it. When we take it to far out of balance nature always strikes us back and reclaims its influence. I personally think the problem is man has a limited memory and repeats the same steps that led to the destruction of our collective goods time and again.

Look at the impact Katrina had to the US, the impact the tidal wave had in the Pacific, the impact that occurs frequently on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers with the spring thaws. We don't stop the cycle we simply get in its way and get smacked because of it.

[Sparkles]

Does a rogue planet have an effect on the system into which it intrudes? Of course it does. Yes, a new equilibrium will be reached, but that happens because the system is dynamic. That is what makes the cycles able to continue; they can adjust and overcome momentary chaos. And sometimes they are better for that chaos.

That means that both the forces or cycles "in control" and the forces or cycles "being affected by that control" are each a part of the "construct" that is the cycle. Even the concept of "influencing the cycle" can be defined in several ways. Will our influence always be "in your face" and easily noticed? No, not by any means. But just because you cannot measure the influence using accepted measuring devices, that does not mean that there is not an influence.

When a volcano erupts we are not a part of the eruption, but we do partake of the result of the eruption. Humans are living on islands that are created by volcanic action, and farming the fertile soil there. We may not be part of the smaller cycle of eruption, but on a grander scale we are affected by it, so we are a part of the cycle.

And if you believe that humanity is affecting the weather patterns through our effects on the climate, then we could have indeed been instrumental in the final level of force that Katrina exhibited.

The connections are there.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Uh - yeah you did.

Here's where you used the word "stop" (bolding mine)...

And that is why one should never try responding to a thread before they have awakened and had their first cup of coffee. Avoids that nasty after taste that comes from chewing on one's own foot.

Please pass me the salt if you would. he he he

[Lunacie]

And that is why one should never try responding to a thread before they have awakened and had their first cup of coffee. Avoids that nasty after taste that comes from chewing on one's own foot.

Please pass me the salt if you would. he he he

Salt is bad for your blood pressure. How about some steak sauce? :mmm:


I can get totally mixed up if I'm taking part in an online discussion with more than one person - either forgetting which person said something memorable to me, or putting two things together and saying something that doesn't really answer either of them. I prefer Sweet Baby Ray's Barbeque Sauce with my foot-in-mouth snacks. :uhhuhuh:

[Sparkles]

*grin* Oh, I think we can let that one slide. *hands MonSno a cup of coffee*

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Putting on the Shamanistic side of my calling here. I find it trully amazing how Spirit will bring things to ones attention to bring home a lesson or idea.

Tonight I happened to be watching a report on the History Channel about the Dust Bowl affect / effect of the 1930's. Interestingly it showed cycles within cycles and the interaction of all facets of each upon the other.

While it would be nice to say yes it supported my persception and no others that would be an out and out lie. But it did provide a nice visual to show one cycles interaction with another and the outcome of such interaction.

Sort of the notion that the larger cycle of wind and air currents and the hydrolic cycle continued. Yet also the disruption to the growing cycle by man's actions upon the land. The interaction of the fallout from said actions and the accumulation of events.

So I must admit that to be so narrow in focus does undermine the greater scope of action and reaction within and upon the elements (active and passive) of each encounter. Yep that old analyze, analyze and more analysis of facets as individuals keeps one from seeing the whole harmonic affect.

[Lunacie]

I believe the Dust Bowl was a cumulative effect from drought and wind currents along with poor farming techniques and poor efforts to protect the land from the wind and rain. Yes, 80 years later the land has recovered to an extent, but much of the rich topsoil was displaced. If the land had not been poorly farmed and over-grazed not all of that topsoil would have been displaced. I'm happy to see that you are able to see that we humans do indeed have some small, limited effect on the natural world and it's cycles. :thumbsup:

[Sparkles]

*grin* Ain't synchronicity grand?!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Sometimes I find I get so rapped about the hub that I forget about the rest of the wheel. This is one of those times.

I see the cycles almost like one might see a record. There are many tracks on the album and they all are turning in time to the track I am listening to at that moment. At that moment there are no other tracks that hold my attention so nothing else on the album is preceived as impacting upon any other track.

Yet I seemed to forget that it is the total album that is spinning and keeping the whole in balance. Yet when the next track starts to play that then becomes the focus of my atteniton and the future track is of no importance and the past track is outside the influence of what i am listening to at that moment.

I think that would be defined as tunnel vision. I guess I spent to much time as a signals analyst looking at the inner working and oly moved outward when I found the piece that marked the cycle.

Interesting just how narrow our persception may become though we really do not see it until something smacks us in the face.

[Lunacie]

Good metaphor, MonSno. I think we all get stuck in one loop at times and forget that other things are still happening all around us.

[LadyeFalcon]

The Dust bowl is a good example of human intentions and actions impact on Mothers 'cycles'. The hundred year floods is another example of that. We lived through one in the 90's it actually altered the course of several of the rivers in the mountain, try as they might they were never able to get all the rivers back to their original course. Mountain Top Removal is another example of how our actions effect specific cycles. And how bout the Dragons Lines in Pa last time I looked they were still burning and releasing all kinds of gases into the environment that were effecting neighboring communities and growing cycles they may even be contributing to global warming.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/firehole.html

[MonSno_LeeDra]

And how bout the Dragons Lines in Pa last time I looked they were still burning and releasing all kinds of gases into the environment that were effecting neighboring communities and growing cycles they may even be contributing to global warming.



You know I find it amazing just how many people have played the Silent Hill games but do not realize those fires are one of the sources for the game and the setting.

To think it's all atributed to someone buring trash in an old coal vent and it got out of hand. Imagine, burning trash in a tube of stuff that burns. The last report I read expected it to burn for hundreds of years and they really did not know just how far through the coal veins it would spread.

[LadyeFalcon]

You know I find it amazing just how many people have played the Silent Hill games but do not realize those fires are one of the sources for the game and the setting.
OMG my kids have played that game and none of us knew that :smileroll I will have to tell the kids.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

OMG my kids have played that game and none of us knew that :smileroll I will have to tell the kids.


There's not much on the net now days about the games inspiration but a lot is still around with connection to the movie "Silent Hill". Of course the game and movie for that matter only use it as a back drop the really horror facet of it I do not know what inspired that.

http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm

[Spica]

When making a spell I sometimes do use the planetary hour and day of one particular planet, but If Im in a hurry...
I don't bother. I also find it odd that every candle magic book says that you have to let the candle burn completely out. I never, EVER have done such thing because it's a waste of candle and I also can't sit next to one for 5-7hours. :F I also re-use them for different purposes. :P

[muninnskiss]

1734 Witchcraft bases some of its precepts on the book The White Goddess by Robert Graves. The White Goddess is full of correspondences, mostly for trees, birds, letters, and gods and goddesses.

As far as the Wheel of the Year goes, many traditional crafters celebrate some of the the days in the Wheel, but most don't call it the Wheel of the Year. Some only celebrate the equinoxes and solstices, others only the four Sabbots. They aren't celebrated the same way as Wiccans do, however. The Esbats seem less common in what I've seen.

FFF
~Muninn's Kiss