warrior path?

[Taliesyn]

okay, so I got to thinking. how do we reconcile warrior paths mentality ( honor, defence, martial skills) with rencarnation? I'm not trying to get into a discussion of "harm none" but what is the thoughts of folks? how do actions that harm another affect our spiritual growth?

in another regard, I work as a healer, and I am a warrior. is that a way to balance it? It was common in Native american peoples for old warriors to become medicine people....

[Nesta]

I suppose it depends on your path, definition of a warrior and personal opinion.

I see myself as a warrior too but I also spend a fair amount of time healing and guiding. I don't feel there's anything for me to reconcile, I feel that 'harm none' (etc) is not a relevant concept for me as I just try to do my best in any given situation (I also believe that tough love is often necessary). I do not do any kind of martial art and I would never choose to fight physically. I will do whatever I feel is necessary, I don't shy away from anything just because it might be difficult or unpleasant. I am dedicated to Odin which, for me, is a dedication to gaining knowledge by facing and overcoming challenges.

[brymble]

Are you perchance confusing "warrior" with "aggressor"? I don't see how honor, defense, and martial skills either harm another or conflict with the process of reincarnation/spiritual evolution. Don't the most advanced martial arts come from societies with established beliefs in reincarnation and spiritual development?

How does it need to be "balanced" by healing? How does it need to be reconciled? Is it the path that needs reconciling, or how you are experiencing and interpreting the "mentality"? Is the mentality you are describing necessarily a part of the path?

To me a greater concern regarding spiritual progress/reincarnation rather than the path itself would be what appears to be conflicting feelings about it.

[roguetamlin]

Brymble raises good points. Warrior, although synonymous with aggression in modern culture, is really a neutral word. One can be a warrior and a protector, or a warrior and a giver of justice. We can't always live in the light and sometimes we have to take a dark path to get to where we need to be. Let us not let 21st century thinking poison our reincarnations in often darker pasts.

[BearDancing]

what is your understanding of warrior...there are many kinds, and what you consider harm....???

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

okay, so I got to thinking. how do we reconcile warrior paths mentality ( honor, defence, martial skills) with rencarnation? I'm not trying to get into a discussion of "harm none" but what is the thoughts of folks? how do actions that harm another affect our spiritual growth?

in another regard, I work as a healer, and I am a warrior. is that a way to balance it? It was common in Native american peoples for old warriors to become medicine people....

I don't think harm effects our spiritual growth at all. I think that sometimes harm must be done. Even by doing harm weather our intentions are honorable or not you can still grow and learn from the experience.

I definately think of my self as a warrior. Though some might not see it, if the need arises I certainly would fight with everything I have, especially to defend those I care about. I'm not sure anyone can tell you how to reconsile being a healer and warrior, I think it's a personal matter of understanding. To me they are one and the same, i believe to be a healer you must know how to harm and heal.

[Darth Brooks]

It's like Mister Miyagi once said to Daniel-san...We learn to fight so we don't have to.

What makes a person a "warrior?" Does one automatically qualify for the term, simply by picking up a sword or a gun and bashing somebody's brains in?

Or does a person even have to pick up a weapon, or conduct any sort of aggressive action, to be a "warrior?"

I think the Islamic concept of jihad would be most helpful to this discussion. I am far from being an expert on Islam, but I do know that the common Western reactions to this word - i.e., thoughts of suicide bombers and 9-11 and fanatical terrorism - are inconsistent with its historical usage. I once met a Muslim man who worked as a cab driver in New Orleans. It was very interesting to speak with him, because he was a man who had brought his family here to the States because he honestly believed they could have more freedom as Muslims here than they could in any Middle Eastern country. When I asked him what the word jihad really meant, he told me it is about struggling in life and facing obstacles for the glory of Allah, and working to make the world a better and safer place to live. His understanding of the term had nothing to do with committing acts of violence or aggression. For him, it was merely taking a stand for what's good and human and decent in this world.

Another example - one of my favorites - would be Mohandas K. Gandhi. He never raised a finger against his enemies. He never told any of his followers to pick up guns or weapons against the British. He refused to support the British Empire, choosing to break the law and make his own clothes and his own salt as he pleased. He was continually beaten and arrested and malnourished, yet he never gave up fighting for the rights of the Indian people without ever striking a single blow. This, to me, is what it truly means to be a warrior. IMO, Gandhi was one of the greatest warriors who ever lived. Martin Luther King Jr. was another who followed in the same tradition.

Now I do not know what the point is in trying to tie this to reincarnation, unless there is some question as to how acts of violent self-defense may effect one's karma in future lives. This I cannot answer, since I do not possess any decisive belief (or disbelief) in reincarnation myself. Yet when it comes to the question, "How do actions that harm another affect our spiritual growth?," I believe the answer lies in one's motives. Does one hurt another simply for hurt's sake? Or does one hurt another to protect the innocent? In the first case, I believe such a course of action will eventually lead to self-destruction, for outside of any karmic implications (in the Eastern sense at least), the cosmic inertia does assert itself, and as many people say, "like attracts like." Or, if you like, we can use Jesus' way of phrasing it: "He who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword." But in the second case, I believe the Gods are much more understanding and forgiving. They smile upon the woman or the man who sacrifices their own safety, their own life and limbs, for the well-being of others.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

okay, so I got to thinking. how do we reconcile warrior paths mentality ( honor, defence, martial skills) with rencarnation? I'm not trying to get into a discussion of "harm none" but what is the thoughts of folks? how do actions that harm another affect our spiritual growth?

in another regard, I work as a healer, and I am a warrior. is that a way to balance it? It was common in Native american peoples for old warriors to become medicine people.

I disagree with this notion. Most people chosen to be Keepers of the Sacred Bundle, or other holy relics, are for different reasons. Many chosen to be in any of the shamanic type roles were usually chosen from birth. A great warrior was considered to have strong medicine but was not seen as a medicine person.

Old warriors became grand fathers to all the young warriors (braves) and served to pass on their skills. Depending upon tribal grouping they may have been shirt wearers or given certain positions in ritual dance or ceremonies.
...

Myself I think many try to claim the role of the "Warrior's Path" but have no true sense or understanding of the pathway.

The warrior’s path is one of balance. Balancing the roll of life verses that of death. Balancing the notion of life giver to life taker and respect. Balancing the notion of honor and courage to self versus that of honor, courage and dedication to community. Balancing the role of destroyer against that of creator. Balancing awareness of self in association of awareness of place and ability. It's also about knowing when to lead, when to follow and when to wait. It's about knowing oneself but also knowing others.

One may train in the skills of various weapons but that training is more so to condition the body and mind to act as one. Yet the warrior also knows that many times the skill is to use your opponent strengths and skills against himself and undermine or disrupt their medicine. Yet skill is also seen, as one's ability to lead or inspire other's to overcome or manage their own fears and weakness upon the field of battle.

To use the Native slant a great warrior was one who could defeat his opponent through more than just physical fighting skills. If I could steal your horses I was a better fighter and warrior than the one who guarded them. If I could show bravery and run forward and count coup upon my enemy it showed my medicine was stronger and my bravery greater.

The Samurai of Japan were renowned for fighting ability but that mattered little in comparison to their loyalty to master or Diameo. Their fighting skills gained them fame but their ability to create works of art and poetry gained them prestige and enduring honor. Their ability to create was equally important to their ability to kill. Their steadfast commitment to loyalty the thing they desired most for honor yet the thing they would commit Sempi Cou should they fail to protect or bring dishonor to their charge.

Personally, I do not see where the notion of reincarnation comes into play with regards to the warriors path. One is more of a religious notion while the other is more of a morale and ethic position.

[magus512]

Coming from one who studies the old ways of the ninja mystics, both physical and spiritual, I think that what makes a warrior is both the ability to physically defend home and family and to cultivate the ability to live happily with oneself. A warrior cherishes freedom to be himself, to make his own choices based on his OWN ethics, not some religous dogma or cultural stereotypes or social mores that limit his journey to enlightenment in this life. That said, martial skills do have a place in the enlightened warrior path. You can't have the spiritual without the physical, or vice versa. To separate the two or to put the one above the other is bring imbalance to your life.

We live in a world where there are those who would harm others for their own gain. That is the harsh reality. Warriors do not deny reality, but embrace it in all its beauty and ugliness. They do not let the ugly side of life deter them from their own joy and enjoyment of life. They simply take care of the problem that comes their way in a manner that seem fitting, and move on. I hope this helps, somewhat , and please keep in mind to not take what I say as gospel. It is simply my own opinion and experience.

Oh, one more thing: Check out any books By An-Shu Stephen K. Hayes on ninjutsu. You'll get alot from them.

[LisaT4P]

It is all well & good to say, "If you're acting in self-defense, then you are justified and will be forgiven" but how do forgive yourself if you are committed to not harming others?

I may have to strike out at someone who is hurting me, but that doesn't mean that I wanted to do it, or enjoyed doing it. It was a necessary action. It is really easy to intellectualize it if you haven't had to do it and have no first-hand experience of the inner conflict that this causes.

We worry about our karma, we worry about doing the right thing.. and to some even acts of self-defense would be considered harming someone else. How do you reconcile those beliefs with your actions?

If your intention and love is healing, how do you justify self-defense or any other type of harm to yourself? How do you NOT think that it is damaging to your karma in some way? That it won't affect how your next incarnation will be?

Do you take the responsibility that any action that causes harm to another will affect your future incarnations? Do you hope that the healing work you do will help to offset the "negative" balance?

I feel that you can't take responsibility for the actions of another. If someone places themself in harm's way by offering violence, and you are forced to respond in kind, then the onus is on them. But, even believing that, and knowing that... I would probably still question myself.

It reminds me of the Mighty Mighty Boss-tones song "Knock on Wood". :)

[*~Amora~*]

okay, so I got to thinking. how do we reconcile warrior paths mentality ( honor, defence, martial skills) with rencarnation? I'm not trying to get into a discussion of "harm none" but what is the thoughts of folks? how do actions that harm another affect our spiritual growth?

in another regard, I work as a healer, and I am a warrior. is that a way to balance it? It was common in Native american peoples for old warriors to become medicine people....

It depends on your path.

For example, in Hellenic Polytheist Reconstructionism, one follows the Delphic Maxims, which include:

Help your friends (Φιλοις βοηθει)
Guard friendship (Φιλιαν φυλαττε)
Watch out for your enemies (Εχθρους αμυνου)

With the above three combined, that means treat your friends as friends and treat your enemies as enemies. If you don't defend your friends against your enemies and theirs, then you have compromised your ethics (in this path).

Also:
Despise evil (Κακιαν μισει)
Pursue honor (Δοξαν διωκε)
Guard what is yours (Ιδια φυλαττε)
Despise insolence (Υβριν μισει)
Die for your country (Θνησκε υπερ πατριδος)

However, violence is restrained by:
Shun murder (Φονου απεχου)
Control yourself (Αρχε σεαυτου)
Be overcome by justice (Ηττω υπο δικαιου)
Gain possessions justly (Δικαιως κτω)
Venture into danger prudently (Κινδυνευε φρονιμως)
Control anger (Θυμου κρατει)
Be jealous of no one (Φθονει μηδενι)

See: http://www.flyallnight.com/khaire/DelphicMaxims/maxims.htm

[MonSno_LeeDra]

It is all well & good to say, "If you're acting in self-defense, then you are justified and will be forgiven" but how do forgive yourself if you are committed to not harming others?

For most from my knowledge we do not see not harming others as a part of our mantra. However, that is not to say the amount of damage or pain inflicteed is not a thing of consideration for us.

But I think a better question is "How do you forgive yourself if you do nothing?"

I may have to strike out at someone who is hurting me, but that doesn't mean that I wanted to do it, or enjoyed doing it.

I must have missed something here for who has said anyone gains enjoyment from it or that we really want to do it? It's more a matter of being willing to fight and ready to do so, not something that we seek out as a rule from my experience.

It was a necessary action. It is really easy to intellectualize it if you haven't had to do it and have no first-hand experience of the inner conflict that this causes.

What conflict? Most I know again spend more time going over what they did, what could have been done different and how they could have done better.

We worry about our karma,

Sorry for me it's more damaging to my Karma if I do nothing and am untrue to my pathwalk and calling.

we worry about doing the right thing.. and to some even

Yes and some are made to be cattle driven with the heard.

acts of self-defense would be considered harming someone else.

At times the surgeon must cut away the dead and dieased flesh. The same is true of the warrior path.

How do you reconcile those beliefs with your actions?

Nothing to reconcile.

If your intention and love is healing, how do you justify self-defense or any other type of harm to yourself? How do you NOT think that it is damaging to your karma in some way? That it won't affect how your next incarnation will be?

As I stated it's far more damaging to my karma to do nothing upon my pathway than to stand for what I believe to be right. Besides who said love and healing is the warrior path? Your comparrison is to close to the notion of Wicca not Warrior.

Do you take the responsibility that any action

Yep. I take resposibility for any action I undertake or perform. I take it in the name of my pathwalk and I stand by it and before it before the gods / goddesses that I worship and follow.

that causes harm to another will affect your future incarnations?

Yes Just as I know that failure to follow my pathwalk and notions of honor and commitment to it can affect / effect any future incarnations.

Do you hope that the healing work you do will help to offset the "negative" balance?

I'm not a healer or medicine man so the healing work I do is not of that nature.

I feel that you can't take responsibility for the actions of another.

Don't have to nor are we asked to do so. However, we do have to take responsibility for ours.

If someone places themself in harm's way by offering violence, and you are forced to respond in kind, then the onus is on them. But, even believing that, and knowing that... I would probably still question myself.

We all question ourselves. Question how we might have done differently? How we might have avoided the conflict that followed? Through the questions do we refine and broaden our abilities. But as a warrior I also know that at times I do not have the ability to question and must follow my teachings and conditings.

In that light we must also be willing and ready to respond.

It reminds me of the Mighty Mighty Boss-tones song "Knock on Wood". :)

I think part of the problem lies in the notion again of what is a warrior path? The Samuari and the Ninja both follow the warrior path and posses many of the same skill sets. Yet the rules and guidance of each is of such a difference that they are completley different in the morales and honor of the sets.

The War Chief holds medicine that is equal to that of the practioner that overseer's the herds and crops, the practioner that uses their magics against an opposing force's crops or herds. All hold medicine equal to the guiardians of the sacred relics or items. All also follow the warrior's pathway and will fight and kill if necessary to protect and defend their charges.

One thing many forget is that the warrior many times walks on the grey line. We know and learn both sides and how to use each equally and posses the willingness to do so. We can't defend or protect against a thing unless we know it also.

[LisaT4P]

Ah, but you see... Tal is a Wiccan. He is also a Warrior. He is also a Healer and a Teacher. I'm sure there are others who follow many paths, and I think the question was more, how do you reconcile the different moral codes of each path (if any) with each other? Which is what I was round-about trying to get to with my post. LOL

I am not a Warrior. I don't identify in this way. I do identify as a Healer and a Teacher. But, I will defend myself and loved-ones if needed as would anyone else. And I know that I would question myself & my actions afterwards.

[Lunacie]

Ah, but you see... Tal is a Wiccan. He is also a Warrior. He is also a Healer and a Teacher. I'm sure there are others who follow many paths, and I think the question was more, how do you reconcile the different moral codes of each path (if any) with each other? Which is what I was round-about trying to get to with my post. LOL

I am not a Warrior. I don't identify in this way. I do identify as a Healer and a Teacher. But, I will defend myself and loved-ones if needed as would anyone else. And I know that I would question myself & my actions afterwards.

I was trained by a Wiccan Warrior so that may have influenced my philosophy on what Wicca's core beliefs about defending ourselves and our friends and our country are like. As someone else pointed out, passive resistance can also be a Warrior's path. At any rate, I'm not aggressive or war-like, yet I would certainly defend myself, my family, my friends, my way of life, and my country.

I'm mainly a healer and a teacher, and I don't feel there is separate and conflicting moral code for each of those aspects of myself. I think one can be Wiccan and be anything, although I would have trouble relating a mass murderer to the Wiccan path. ;)


Tal ... have you read Wiccan Warrior: Walking a Spiritual Path in a Sometimes Hostile World (http://mysticwicks.com/Wiccan Warrior: Walking a Spiritual Path in a Sometimes Hostile World) by Kerr Cuhulain? I've only read a few excerpts but you might find it helpful in sorting through your feelings about this issue.

[David19]

It depends on your path.

For example, in Hellenic Polytheist Reconstructionism, one follows the Delphic Maxims, which include:

Help your friends (Φιλοις βοηθει)
Guard friendship (Φιλιαν φυλαττε)
Watch out for your enemies (Εχθρους αμυνου)

With the above three combined, that means treat your friends as friends and treat your enemies as enemies. If you don't defend your friends against your enemies and theirs, then you have compromised your ethics (in this path).

Also:
Despise evil (Κακιαν μισει)
Pursue honor (Δοξαν διωκε)
Guard what is yours (Ιδια φυλαττε)
Despise insolence (Υβριν μισει)
Die for your country (Θνησκε υπερ πατριδος)

However, violence is restrained by:
Shun murder (Φονου απεχου)
Control yourself (Αρχε σεαυτου)
Be overcome by justice (Ηττω υπο δικαιου)
Gain possessions justly (Δικαιως κτω)
Venture into danger prudently (Κινδυνευε φρονιμως)
Control anger (Θυμου κρατει)
Be jealous of no one (Φθονει μηδενι)

See: http://www.flyallnight.com/khaire/DelphicMaxims/maxims.htm

Thanks for posting that, the Delphic Maxims seem, IMO, like very good guidelines to follow, I especially like the Help your Friends parts, controlling yourself and distancing yourself from evil.

[roguetamlin]

Lemme ask the fans of penance something: do you or do you not believe in the basic concept in the craft that to create you must destroy? Do you believe (as it sounds to me you beieve) that destruction is always bad and that there is no place for the blade in the craft? Maybe it's because I'm a Libra, but that's a really basic part of all this for me. War, as horrible as it is, exists to keep balance in the universe. Cruelty must be balanced with kindness and war with peace, but one can't exist with out the other. I'm not saying that these things are right, simply that they can only be balanced, not destroyed.

[*~Amora~*]

Thanks for posting that, the Delphic Maxims seem, IMO, like very good guidelines to follow, I especially like the Help your Friends parts, controlling yourself and distancing yourself from evil.

Thank you! I think it's important to contemplate how to combine them into an overall approach to living life.

[David19]

Thank you! I think it's important to contemplate how to combine them into an overall approach to living life.

That's very true :).

[Hangatyr 13]

I had to edit this a little so that I'd come off a little less abrasively.

Mahatma Ghandi and other pacifists are not warriors. Being a warrior requires no "spiritual balance" or anything like that. A warrior is someone who goes to war and fights. Warriors are aggressive, atleast to some extent. Warriors fight and kill or atleast are trained and ready to do so. Warriors live by a code, and there are a variety of those.

In regards to warriors being able to heal, my response is why wouldn't they be able to heal? I'm a warrior and I'm combat lifesaver certified. That means that I can perform rudimentary and possibly life saving first aid during combat in lieu of a medic. What about Army combat medics and Navy fleet marine force hospital corpsmen? Those guys are warriors and they are experts at healing and saving lives.

In regards to reincarnation and spiritual development, my interpretation of that question focuses a bit more on the latter, so I'll go with that. I think being a warrior (i.e. someone who goes to war and fights and kills) is good for one's spiritual development. Combat veterans possess a kind of wisdom that most other people do not have. They have seen things that others haven't and never will and those things have most likely changed them. They now look at the world in a different way, no longer sheltered by ignorance, atleast not in that area. I think having the blinders taken off and seeing the world for what it really is, on many levels including the spiritual, is a step in the right direction.

[Brearley Arn]

I wouldn't think of it as "Harm None", the wiccan Harm None doesn't fit with a warrior path. Rather think, "Is this Justified?" Are you defending yourself or your kin? Are there others ways to accomplish your goal?

Hurting others isn't "evil", hurting others without cause is bad.

Animals in nature must kill to survive and feed their young, animals are not "evil" they are surviving, they are living the way life wants them to live. Humans have the capacity for violence, but we also have reason, there is a time and place for both.

[Micheál]

I think the "Warrior Path" is one that really gets played out too much. In my experience those claiming the label are mostly re-enactors, or martial artists wanting to identify with romantic, glorious notions about what warriors are imagined to stand for, that usually haven't actually been to war, or have seen combat. I think there are some with professions appropriate to it, but that's just their personal way of incorporating their religion into their daily life, the religion itself isn't so different.

[IndigoRising]

. To me they are one and the same, i believe to be a healer you must know how to harm and heal.

I have always considered myself a warrior for many and varied reasons.. I beleive that holding yourself with honor and respect and utilizing what skills are nessacary against those that harm others is a holy act. I beleive that somepeople misconstrue the Term to represent one who uses violence for gain.. whether it be physical or metaphysical.

[Satori43]

I really enjoyed the discussion on this thread. I've been trained and trained others in martial arts for a total of just short of 10 years.
The relationship between reincarnation and martial skills and their use is that martial arts teaches Johnny "you just can't go around bullying people with that karate stuff". I came up the ranks in Tae Kwon Do and hurt people I trained with, got hurt some- sometimes pretty badly. But we were all willing participants-and I didn't know of one trained martial artist who set out to hurt unwilling bystanders.
Later, I began training in Aiki-JiuJitsu (throws, joint locks, turning an attacker's energy against them). Much of the physical art gives the immobilized attacker the choice to walk away or, if they choose to keep fighting, pain and discomfort continues to be applied gradually, making it an easy choice for the attacker to simply stop and give in.
Not hurting others unecessarily, then, I think goes back to the reincarnation concept that "harm to no one" represents the sense of balance which keeps us walking more or less straight on whatever karmic path, purpose, etc. and keeps us from straying from it so we can get on with dealing with the experience of what's on that path.
The Warrior being peaceful and a healer makes perfect sense to me. What is unfortunate to me is the War- which doesn't originate from Warriors.

Satori43

[Ross]

I think the "Warrior Path" is one that really gets played out too much. In my experience those claiming the label are mostly re-enactors, or martial artists wanting to identify with romantic, glorious notions about what warriors are imagined to stand for, that usually haven't actually been to war, or have seen combat. I think there are some with professions appropriate to it, but that's just their personal way of incorporating their religion into their daily life, the religion itself isn't so different.
i'm a viet nam veteran. and a martial artist for 41 years now. i taught aikido and aikibujutsu for eleven years. i love to fight. and i haven't fought for decades. warrior is one of those buzz words that gets tossed around. people who fight get broken and killed. combat is brutal and honor has no place on the modern battlefield. from my perspective it's not what i'd be willing to fight for that matters. it's what i'd be willing to die for. or live for.

[BryonMorrigan]

Interesting that this thread would get dug up...

Anyways, the OP was trying to reconcile the "Warrior's Path" with Reincarnation. Well gee...the Hindus have been talking about this concept for thousands of years, you know? In fact, it's in the Bhagavad Gita. One of my favorite passages, (which I'm going to get tattooed on my back, in Sanskrit, below a mural of the Hindu warrior-king Shivaji fighting the Mughals...), is when Arjun is preparing for war, and he looks across the battlefield, sees the faces of those that he is about to fight...and despairs. Krishna reminds him that he is of the warrior caste (Kshatriya), and that it is his duty to fight....and he says:

“Die, and you win heaven. Conquer, and you enjoy the earth. Stand up now, son of Kunti, and resolve to fight.” (Bhagavad Gita 2:37)

In other words, "you can't lose." It's a very similar sentiment to the idea of a "glorious death in battle" to Norse Polytheists. The only "bad" decision is to run away from your duty as a warrior to fight. To die in battle, doing one's duty, is great karma for a warrior.

[Micheál]

i'm a viet nam veteran. and a martial artist for 41 years now. i taught aikido and aikibujutsu for eleven years. i love to fight. and i haven't fought for decades. warrior is one of those buzz words that gets tossed around. people who fight get broken and killed. combat is brutal and honor has no place on the modern battlefield. from my perspective it's not what i'd be willing to fight for that matters. it's what i'd be willing to die for. or live for.
It's looks like we have a little in common then. I've been studying martial arts since I was six from getting a Taekwondo&Shito-Ryu Blackbelt, to Kickboxing, shoot wrestling, Bujinkan, MCMAP, and now full contact jujitsu&MMA, (might actually started competing in MMA if I get the time). I served as a Rifleman in the 1st BTN 5th Marines in Operations Iraqi&Enduring Freedom. Although my mind still thinks in a certain way, and I'm quite able to serve&protect, and even re-enlist if I saw a justifiable cause, I knew after my 1st combat deployment that I'd be getting out after serving my time, and the 'Warrior Path' wasn't for me. It seems a lot of my comrades thought the same, the ones that made it back at least.

I may have wrestled with that decision re-adapting to civilian life, but I realise now that it was because of the conditioning. If anything my 'Path' has more to do with hearth&home. If need be I have no problem defending that, but any kind of 'fighting' I'll be doing will be for sport. If we look at it that way, then it looks like everyone that plays sports are warriors, while others have paid with their lives for that title.(as I'm sure you'll understand bro)

[Twinkle]

Here's my opinion - I'm sure you all want to hear it.

I am a Marine (once a Marine, always a Marine). I believe that everyone is a Warrior, and walking that path at some times more than others.

Mothers defend their children...fight for their education, fight to teach how to be good people in a very bad world, protect them from harm and will lay down their lives for them if need be.

Children fight for their autonomy. They struggle to navigate through social pressure, adolescence, hormonal surges and so on to become capable adults.

Women struggle to be who they are, constantly battling the idea of what the "ideal" woman should be in order to be exactly who *they* are, and be comfortable with it. A middle aged woman fights against the sterotype that she is now irrelevant because she isn't 20 anymore....and pushes to make sure that she ages gracefully...her wrinkles are her battle scars.

Addicts fight against relapse every day....one second at a time, one hour a time, one day at a time.

People recovering from debilitating injuries fight against pain every day. They get up, do their therapy....sweat and cry and collapse from exhaustion. But they get up and do it again the next day.

I could go on - but the bottom line is that *everyone* is fighting a battle.

Blood, bullets, and bruises are not always an indicator of the Warrior Path. We are all Warriors, all walking that path, and while there isn't a Uniform or some sort of physical fight going on all the time....we still fight. Every day.

[Micheál]

I agree with that Twinkle, and part of the reason "Once a Marine always a Marine" is true is because we're instilled with certain codes, pushed through tests, and undergo a rite of passage where we'll carry what we got out of it with us for the rest of our lives. As humans we're also imprinted with certain instinct that help us survive, and in many circumstances in life invoke our warrior aspects in defence, or to overcome limitations and hardships. That spirit does make us all warriors.

What I have trouble understanding is how self identifying as being on 'The Warrior Path' is any different from other religious paths. Since warriors are traditionally associated with the class and caste, if we're taking these aspects away from one's lifestyle and profession, what makes the spirituality any different from others?

[Twinkle]

I don't believe that the human spirit....that instinct that makes us rise above adversity...has anything to do with religion or spirituality, really.

I think that some paths embrace it, and help us to utilize that instinct to the best of our ability - but it doesn't equate to a Warrior Path. Hellenismos, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism even....ask us to rise above what we are...face our fears and adversity...and come through on the other side.

The Warrior Path is the Human spirit - and that is found in all of us.

[Micheál]

That's pretty close to how I view it as well. From examples that I've seen from those that label their spiritual path 'The Warrior Path', I don't see much that distinguishes it from any other spiritual path. Having an interest in martial arts, idolising warrior/heroes of mythology, collecting weapons and re-enactment/LARPing, or playing World of Warcraft(all relating to war or combat) all seem like personal interests to me compared to those that have to deal with training for, or actual combat as a big part of their lifestyle or profession.

I've seen Wiccan Warrior: Walking a Spiritual Path in a Sometimes Hostile World by Kerr Cuhulain already mentioned in this thread. We can tell by the pen-name that the author is drawing from Ireland's greatest mythic warrior&hero Cú Chulainn(as many do), but he also happens to be a former Air Force Officer and retired police officer that served on a SWAT team&gang crime unit. We can all be warriors, but if someone's going to label their path as such, that's more along the lines that I'd expect.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I tend to find it interesting that so many claim it until it comes time to walk it. That and I find it interesting and amusing that so many claim a strength that is seen as positive of it as justification to say they walk it. Selecting those items that make it visible and exciting to be recognized as such but failing so badly in understanding the negative side of it.

It seem's strange to me that some can say they are Hellenist for example and go to so much extreme to say they follow all of it and thus are one thing. Yet say other's are inspired by it or only use parts of it so they can say they are inspiried by a thing but are not truly of that thing. Doesn't really matter either for it can be Pax Roman, Hellenistic, African Dispora or any other variant. That one is fluffy when they choose the "Glory" or whitelight side of a thing at the expense of the negative or darker facets of a thing. Yet when it comes to The Warriors Pathway its ok to claim the Glory or Whitelight side of it and saying they follow it.

All the "we fight battles to" so that makes us warriors just seems foolish to me. The warrior may train for the battle but the battle is not the focus or focale point of their pathway. One thing for certain being those on the warrior's path live, breathe and walk it all thier lives, 24 - 7. They don't join for a short time then walk away. They don't tend to use the bs once a thing always a thing. I hear once a Marine always a Marine and think that is such a narrow scope or concept when you consider those who served one tour versus those who served thier entire life. Granted I still have more respect for those who walked the pathway for even a short time versus those who claim the title but never tried at all.

In some ways it seem's crazy to me to say because one is a parent they are "warriors". As a parent i'll lay my life on the line for my children or spouse but that is because they are my flesh and blood. Yet as a warrior i'll lay my life on the line for those that have no relation to me because it is my calling. It is a pathway I walk in every facet of my life and influences and impacts upon all things I do and the way I view them. It is not something that I can select when it shall apply and when it will be ignored in favor of another outlook.

I trully believe that many look to the strengths of the Warrior Pathway and draw strength, confidence and perhaps respect from it but never walk the shadow side of it. yet that does not make them one upon the Warrior's Pathway nor inflict upon them the shadows that go with it. One may walk in the Spirit of the Warrior and call upon that spirit through out thier lives and in day to day situations.

Yet there in lies the difference I believe. There are many who call upon the Spirit of the Warrior in their lives and confuse it with being upon the Warrior Pathway. Then there are those that do walk the pathway and carry the glory facets upon their sleeves and face the shadow aspects within everyday of thier lives. Even when the body is aged and or broken they still stand ready to answer the call and step forward. To take up the sword when needed yet not desire it nor flaunt it.

[Selah]

I tend to find it interesting that so many claim it until it comes time to walk it. That and I find it interesting and amusing that so many claim a strength that is seen as positive of it as justification to say they walk it. Selecting those items that make it visible and exciting to be recognized as such but failing so badly in understanding the negative side of it.

It seem's strange to me that some can say they are Hellenist for example and go to so much extreme to say they follow all of it and thus are one thing. Yet say other's are inspired by it or only use parts of it so they can say they are inspiried by a thing but are not truly of that thing. Doesn't really matter either for it can be Pax Roman, Hellenistic, African Dispora or any other variant. That one is fluffy when they choose the "Glory" or whitelight side of a thing at the expense of the negative or darker facets of a thing. Yet when it comes to The Warriors Pathway its ok to claim the Glory or Whitelight side of it and saying they follow it.

All the "we fight battles to" so that makes us warriors just seems foolish to me. The warrior may train for the battle but the battle is not the focus or focale point of their pathway. One thing for certain being those on the warrior's path live, breathe and walk it all thier lives, 24 - 7. They don't join for a short time then walk away. They don't tend to use the bs once a thing always a thing. I hear once a Marine always a Marine and think that is such a narrow scope or concept when you consider those who served one tour versus those who served thier entire life. Granted I still have more respect for those who walked the pathway for even a short time versus those who claim the title but never tried at all.

In some ways it seem's crazy to me to say because one is a parent they are "warriors". As a parent i'll lay my life on the line for my children or spouse but that is because they are my flesh and blood. Yet as a warrior i'll lay my life on the line for those that have no relation to me because it is my calling. It is a pathway I walk in every facet of my life and influences and impacts upon all things I do and the way I view them. It is not something that I can select when it shall apply and when it will be ignored in favor of another outlook.

I trully believe that many look to the strengths of the Warrior Pathway and draw strength, confidence and perhaps respect from it but never walk the shadow side of it. yet that does not make them one upon the Warrior's Pathway nor inflict upon them the shadows that go with it. One may walk in the Spirit of the Warrior and call upon that spirit through out thier lives and in day to day situations.

Yet there in lies the difference I believe. There are many who call upon the Spirit of the Warrior in their lives and confuse it with being upon the Warrior Pathway. Then there are those that do walk the pathway and carry the glory facets upon their sleeves and face the shadow aspects within everyday of thier lives. Even when the body is aged and or broken they still stand ready to answer the call and step forward. To take up the sword when needed yet not desire it nor flaunt it.

Very well said. (:

[BryonMorrigan]

Very well said. (:

Really? Between the unintelligible, grammatically-incorrect sentences, and thinly-disguised insults, I thought it was basically nothing but a bunch of contradictory statements and testosterone-infused posturing, loaded with vague references to undefined concepts like the "Warrior Pathway" and what-not. :::shrugs::: To each his/her own...

[Twinkle]

Yeah...I don't get it. We all can take up the sword at any time for whatever purpose we need to. Does it really have to be an *actual* sword? Seriously? And what exactly is the Warrior Pathway? A place in the mind and spirit that calls upon the reserves of willand strength? The LaVeyan Satanist has that....and they are not religious in any sense of the word.

Or maybe only "special" people are Warriors. Perhaps I have too much estrogen to be considered worthy.

And FTR - I am part of the most elite fighting force in the world. I have stood along with my comrades in the Marine Corps and would have put down my life for my country. I am qualified in both the rifle, pistol, hand to hand combat...and I can kick some ass.

Now I choose to defend and protect me and mine. It doesn't make me any less of a warrior...I just choose to fight different battles....and I acknowledge and applaud all others who fight their own personal battles, along with those who fight the grand ones that get all the glory and media coverage.

There is nothing fluffy or white light about the human spirit. It takes courage, work, determination, etc. But it is not exclusionary. It is inclusive...*everyone* has it in them. Everyone.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

=Twinkle;4667415]Yeah...I don't get it. We all can take up the sword at any time for whatever purpose we need to.

Well truthfully I'd say those on the Warrior's Pathway never have to take up the "Sword" for they never put it down. It's in all facets of all they do and how they respond to the world about them. Of course how the term "Sword" is defined may very greatly as their choice of weapon or weapons.


Does it really have to be an *actual* sword? Seriously?

Nope. Never said that it had to be a sword. A fire rake in the hands of a skilled fire fighter is as deadly as a sword.


And what exactly is the Warrior Pathway? A place in the mind and spirit that calls upon the reserves of will and strength?

In some ways it is a place in the mind and a way of looking at things. In many ways its what seperates a soldier from a Merc from a warrior. Its a purpose they live thier lives for and many times a service to group and community. Its a commitment to things beyond themselves and what they dedicate themselves to. It's a belief and outlook that seperates the Firefighter from one who simply wears the uniform. It's a mind set and outlook that seperates a policeofficer from one who simply is doing a job for pay.

Though perhaps one of the most identifying facets is that while others may tap into that potential when needed those on the warriors pathway are there all their lives. Combat is not seen in the light of just war and battle but in every situation and how they shall respond. Combat is against self and thier own fears and abilities. Battle is standing when every facet tells you to run and that it is hopeless to try. It's walking into that burning building, answering that call that maybe your last, holding that line or even ordering a person to their deaths. It's not about being in a unique situation and arising to the challenge it's about being in that mind set and being there every day. Its all that and more and concepts that one has to experience to understand and relate to for words do an injustice to explaining it.


The LaVeyan Satanist has that....and they are not religious in any sense of the word.

Yes but religion is one of the key factors along with social conditioning that those traits are built upon. Doesn't matter if it is the notion of Bushido, the old knights code of morality and strength or any other number of ideals and beliefs it is built upon.


Or maybe only "special" people are Warriors. Perhaps I have too much estrogen to be considered worthy.

Maybe special people are the only warriors. Perhaps thats why so many firefighters, police personal and military have many of the same personality traits. Perhaps its the reason so many enter into social constructs where life is on the line all the time and the next situation could be the one that ends it all. Where life and death walk hand in hand and are constnat companions and reminders of sacrifices that have been made. Where the cost is high to self, family and every minute is precious for they know it could be gone the next second.

Now with regard to estrogen I never said anything about male vs female and who can or can not be upon the warriors pathway because of sex.


And FTR - I am part of the most elite fighting force in the world. I have stood along with my comrades in the Marine Corps and would have put down my life for
my country. I am qualified in both the rifle, pistol, hand to hand combat...and I can kick some ass.

Congratulations a lot of us are qualified in small arms and side arms. Heck many carrying rifles since we were big enough to keep both ends off the ground at the same time. You can keep the recruiter comments of elite fighting forces to yourself. Saw that dog and pony show every time I deployed with an ARG or FMF detachment. Saw it on the subs as they compared themselves to the rest of the Navy. Saw it with the Brown Shoe Navy as they compared themselves to Black Shoes. Saw it between the Rifle Companies, Snipers, Air Crew and Recon's as to who was the best and the elite.


Now I choose to defend and protect me and mine. It doesn't make me any less of a warrior.

I didn't say it didn't make you a fighter or not influenced by the Spirit of the Warrior's Pathway. I said it didn't make you one on the Warrior's pathway.

Since I know it will get mentioned again but I see the Spirit of the Warrior's pathway as the social mindset that is instilled by usage of the word. It's the notion of strength and willingness to stand up for others. It's the mindset and belief of being willing to sacrifice ones own life and self to protect others or in the performace of serving others. It's many times the nostalgic, almost romantic, persception of the Knights of Old, the Samuari, the Warrior face of Native American's. Its the glory, the medals, the sense of union and comaraderie that is preceived and portrayed in the media.



..I just choose to fight different battles....and I acknowledge and applaud all others who fight their own personal battles, along with those who fight the grand ones that get all the glory and media coverage.

Its not the grand battles that makes one a warrior or upon that pathway. Its not even the assumption of personal battles and what that entails for most find their battles within themselves. It may come across as snide or something but to me the external battles are easy to fight and does not require that much courage or strength to do so. It's the internal battles that are faced which are the ones that destroy our humanity and crush our minds and spirits many times.

But battles, a battle is when your in a fire and all exits are closed and fear grips your heart and despair tugs at your limbs. Battle is when you sit in the still of the darkness and see nothing but hear the breathing of the person next to you as you wonder what waits in the darkness. Battle is when you walk on eggs shells as you stand next to the vet who in the darkness is walking some rain soaked trail in Vietnam and you don't have any idea which he'll jump but you stand their for when he needs you. Battle is when your gut screams to run and you watch the person who is supposed to watch your back shoot across the field like a jack rabbit with its arse on fire but you stay less you leave the whole group hung out to dry. Battle is when you fight for your life against the person stuck in a dream inspired rage and thinks they are still engaged with some enemy and you do all you can to not hurt them.

Those and a million other examples that are lived everyday.

The Warrior's pathway, those on it are the ones who like I said do not have to take up the sword they never let it go to begin with. They swore an oath to themselves and to that which they swore to defend and / or protect. The ones who strape on the badge and bullets every day. The ones who drop all and race to the sound of the alarm siren and take up thier outfits and prepare to do battle against the elements. Those that lay thier lives on the line willingly and with stand the gruelling life style and costs it inflicts upon them, their bodies, their spirits and thier families. Those who never have to pick up the proverbial sword for they never let it go.

[Micheál]

And FTR - I am part of the most elite fighting force in the world. I have stood along with my comrades in the Marine Corps and would have put down my life for my country. I am qualified in both the rifle, pistol, hand to hand combat...and I can kick some ass.


The main reason why service personal get so much respect is because of their service, which is exactly what you volunteered to do, and what a lot of others only fantasise about. The Armed Forces is our modern Warrior caste, and the Marine Corps has a very honourable reputation amongst it. Every Marine is trained to be able to function as a rifleman, and you've been qualified and trained for combat. You've earned a title that will remain with you the rest of your life, and unlocked a part of yourself that is capable to accomplish many things.

This is a lot different that walk around thinking that they're Samurai born in the wrong period of time, or Celtic&Norse Warriors that walk around carrying knives&drinking from horns at the weekend.


They don't join for a short time then walk away. They don't tend to use the bs once a thing always a thing. I hear once a Marine always a Marine and think that is such a narrow scope or concept when you consider those who served one tour versus those who served thier entire life. Granted I still have more respect for those who walked the pathway for even a short time versus those who claim the title but never tried at all.

Although I understand a lot of the above, just wanted to elaborate on this one. I can tell someone's entire service by looking at their chest, and I've met my fair share of people that served more than one enlistment or even retired and still didn't have the same experiences as I did. I've earned my CAR, and have attended plenty of Veteran's Day functions even as a civilian where the retirees rub elbows in front of the bbq pits with their big bellies and I can guarantee they can go shopping with their wives without still scanning rooftops, or have nightmares about screeching vans with RPG's aimed in on them.

You can only be sh*t on by Uncle Sam so many times until you can't imagine ever having a normal family life in that environment. My props to those that can, and do, but there are many areas in the civilian world where we can extend our 'service.' (I'm not implying that you didn't acknowledge that, as you've already given plenty of examples above, but just wanted to clarify)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

.. This is a lot different that walk around thinking that they're Samurai born in the wrong period of time, or Celtic&Norse Warriors that walk around carrying knives&drinking from horns at the weekend.

Oh I won't dispute that one. It's like falling into a Ren Fair. I have to admit though I used to think similiar about reenactors of civil war battles but found a lot of them were active military or retired military. Funny part was it didn't matter where it was at as to the caliber of the people doing it.


Although I understand a lot of the above, just wanted to elaborate on this one. I can tell someone's entire service by looking at their chest, and I've met my fair share of people that served more than one enlistment or even retired and still didn't have the same experiences as I did. I've earned my CAR, and have attended plenty of Veteran's Day functions even as a civilian where the retirees rub elbows in front of the bbq pits with their big bellies and I can guarantee they can go shopping with their wives without still scanning rooftops, or have nightmares about screeching vans with RPG's aimed in on them.

I used to look at medal racks and ribbon rows to see who had done what and been where, especially when I was a newbie. In truth I stopped that after my tour in Spain when my CO tried awarding medals and ribbons to all the command personal for he claimed all were in support of that particular action. Those of us who deployed on the ground or on the waves (or beneath them for that matter) never said they didn't support us we just said they were not there with us. It trully got to the point where you looked to see if they had a NATO medal to go along with the others to show who had and who had not actually been to the area, ie former Yugoslavia. In some ways it got pretty bad for I knew a number that would say "Show me your combat pay or hazardous duty pay on your LES!" to shut them up.

In truth I find it hard to say that because a person has a large gut or such that they do not still walk on jungle trails or such. I've seen a number of them that look like they don't do anything yet let a car backfire and look at thier faces. Watch as they jockey for posiiton to keep their backs to walls so they can look over at the entry point to the area. For a number of the Vietnam vets I know watch them with children or women who come walking up to them. It sounds bad I suppose but in some ways those very BBQ's are like baboon outings as you watch the guards on the fringes and the family groups in the middle of them. But none of it speaks to the still nights when the memories won't be silent nor thier minds still.

Experiences are a difficult thing to address. Even the person who stands next to you will not experinece it the same way as you do. They will not know the same fear, hesitation, disorientation, etc that both are living at that very moment. Nor will they know the same memories that seek to fill the mind and numb it at that single instant of time.

I was in an unannounced training scenario where my hands sweated as I hauled that M-14 to my post. We opened that barrier door and came face to face with shadows standing there and knew we were dead but kept pushing anyway to take that threat out. Myself and the other rifleman pushed those rifle butt's forward and struck those figures that just seemed to materialize before us. What we felt was nothing compared to the team member's that were coming out behind us and had a few more seconds to consider what they were stepping into. But you know the fear and anger there was nothing to having Gunny ream our arses for pulling our strikes when we realized they were females and our Ops Officer before us. We were sailors but as far as Gunny was concerned we were Marines in how he expected us to respond and the butt chewing he gave us afterwards.


You can only be sh*t on by Uncle Sam so many times until you can't imagine ever having a normal family life in that environment. My props to those that can, and
do, but there are many areas in the civilian world where we can extend our 'service.' (I'm not implying that you didn't acknowledge that, as you've already given plenty of examples above, but just wanted to clarify)

I agree there are many area's where one can take their service and carry it to other endeavors. Where the very qualities of the Warrior's pathway is useful and serves well and is a good fit. I wouldn't even say I didn't see some good people get drummed out for stupid things over the years. Some that should have left and didn't and some that left who were a loss to the greater whole. Heck even to the point of a number that were everything you'd want from someone protecting your back in a heated situation but were walking cluster F*cks in other places. But then I think you get into the argument of who is a soldier, who is a Merc and who is a warrior which was a whole different ballgame.

Just to reference a Merc did it for the money, a soldier played the game perhaps even walked the walk and talked the talk but it was a job at best while the warrior it was thier life and calling. Granted more to it than just that but that gives the general gist.

[Ross]

sure is a lot of chest thumping and belittling going on. i could listen to this on a christian forum.

[Micheál]

sure is a lot of chest thumping and belittling going on. i could listen to this on a christian forum.
Damn, belittling is what I strive against. Odds are that I contributed to this since most of my latest post activity has been here, so I'll take the hint and stfu. My apologies, I guess we all have our sensitive subjects.

[Socinus]

Mahatma Ghandi and other pacifists are not warriors. Being a warrior requires no "spiritual balance" or anything like that. A warrior is someone who goes to war and fights. Warriors are aggressive, atleast to some extent. Warriors fight and kill or atleast are trained and ready to do so. Warriors live by a code, and there are a variety of those.
I would draw a difference between a "soldier", someone who goes and fights wars, and a "warrior." The best differentiation between the two I've heard is a solider is someone that only understands what he is told to fight and a warrior is someone who understands why he fights.


I've integrated a great deal of warrior ideology into my belief system. I've spent a great deal of time reading over and thinking about various attitudes towards the idea of death and reincarnation fits very well with that. Part of the classic image of a warrior is someone who is willing to enter a dangerous situation with little or no regard for his or her own safety and if you have the surety of reincarnation, that you will be reborn again, it makes that much easier. When death is a momentary annoyance, you become much less hesitant.

[Heliotrope]

I would draw a difference between a "soldier", someone who goes and fights wars, and a "warrior." The best differentiation between the two I've heard is a solider is someone that only understands what he is told to fight and a warrior is someone who understands why he fights.

Well said.