question regarding Douglas Monroe's 21 Lessons of Merlyn

[abrecan]

i accedentally posted this in another place until i found where the druid threads are. oops. anyway:
I read the book about 6 months ago, and i dont remember quite where he said it, but he was talking about elements, and naturally there are 4 right? well he said there are sub elements all adding up to 12. now, im not asking if hes right because in most cases hes not, but hypothetically if he is, what are they?

http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/misc/progress.gif:whatgives

[odubhain]

i accedentally posted this in another place until i found where the druid threads are. oops. anyway:
I read the book about 6 months ago, and i dont remember quite where he said it, but he was talking about elements, and naturally there are 4 right? well he said there are sub elements all adding up to 12. now, im not asking if hes right because in most cases hes not, but hypothetically if he is, what are they?

http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/misc/progress.gif:whatgives
In many elemental systems, other elements or sub-elements are derived from the interactions considered to exist between the primary elements. In chemistry such interactions are known as compounds. In certain ancient Pagan traditions there could be four, five, nine, twelve, thirteen, onward and upward numbers of elements and sub-elements. I teach an idea called the Dúile for Irish Celtic traditions that is standardized around nine qualities or elements found in people and the cosmos. Words and concepts can be combined and compounded to produce element systems based on allowable bonding, influence and interactions. The periodic table of the element sin chemistry is an example of how this occurs from three basic types of particles and their interactions to form element substances from helium on up to more complex, radioactive and unstable elements. Magical and spiritual qualities have the same potential for being structured based on similar principles of combination and influence.

I'm no fan of a lot of the things Monroe writes about or does but he is not always wrong in what he presents. His books seem to be improving over time though his take on them and his presentation of them as being ancient works or being derived exclusively from ancient works is definitely untrue. Much that is in them is fiction, misunderstanding and Monroe's own take on a combination of many magical systems. Sometimes these seem to ring true while at other times they are so wrong as to be dangerous to body, mind and spirit.

Searles O'Dubhain

[abrecan]

i just want to say thanks for answering my question sir. this is the first time ive been able to ask someone who has wisdom in druidry. but yeah i agree with you disliking monroe, the book of pheryllt? i mean really. Phillip Carr-Gomm says that book had something to do with alchemy. i cant remember what book that was in, but anyway thanks again Mr. Odubhain.

[CelticMoon11]

Some systems includeother elements, I think the chinese have earth, wood, fire, water, and metal. I tried to google it but I can't find any reference to 12 elements. The only thing I can think they MIGHT be would be earth, air, fire, water, metal, wood, spirit... then I don't know. Isn't it more of an alchemy thing?

Sorry!

[odubhain]

Some systems includeother elements, I think the chinese have earth, wood, fire, water, and metal. I tried to google it but I can't find any reference to 12 elements. The only thing I can think they MIGHT be would be earth, air, fire, water, metal, wood, spirit... then I don't know. Isn't it more of an alchemy thing?

Sorry!

One of the things I had in mind was astrology with its twelve months/divisions of the heavens into forces and influences. In a similar vein, the Irish treated the winds as groups of four/eight/twelve. The quantity and division breaks down to how one defines and element vs. a compound. The 'intersection' of two elements in a system could well be considered to be another element (rather than a compound).

An example of such a treatment of combinations might be the idea that 'cool' is a unique state between 'hot' and 'cold.' Lukewarm might be what one sees in a different way of grouping. Elemental groupings seem to be dependent on culture for the numbers involved though things like seasons, planets, moons (12/13) and winds can be invoved (4/8/12).

In science, elements are grouped based on how they occur in Nature as atoms and molecules according to some ways of looking at these things. Other ways of looking at them involve forces instead. Magically and mundanely, alchemy and chemistry are siblings that have created a mmultitude of elemental systems.

The most prevalent forms of the elements are 4, 5, 8, 9 elements or qualities, in grouping how we perceive the realities around us. Since 9 is an important number in Celtic traditions, I personally prefer to work with nine elements or dúl/dúile.

Searles O'Dubhain

[CelticMoon11]

Speaking of the winds, didn't they have different colours for them? The black wind, the red wind etc that you can still hear today down at Irish docks? I think I read that in one of Caitlin Matthews books... I'll go hunting.

Even though the zodiac has 12 houses they only really correspond to the 4 elements though? Correct? The chinese system links to their 5 elements such as the year of the fire Tiger, the year of the wood ox etc

[banondraig]

Speaking of the winds, didn't they have different colours for them? The black wind, the red wind etc that you can still hear today down at Irish docks? I think I read that in one of Caitlin Matthews books... I'll go hunting.

Even though the zodiac has 12 houses they only really correspond to the 4 elements though? Correct? The chinese system links to their 5 elements such as the year of the fire Tiger, the year of the wood ox etc

Yes, the twelve zodiac signs correspond to the four classical elements of fire, earth, air, and water, and repeat in that order.

[WokeUpDead]

I keep thinking I see Marilyn Monroe in the title of this thread.

[odubhain]

Speaking of the winds, didn't they have different colours for them? The black wind, the red wind etc that you can still hear today down at Irish docks? I think I read that in one of Caitlin Matthews books... I'll go hunting.

The winds are these colors:

Winds in the Seanchas Mór
(circa 438 CE, Excerpts from A Literary History of Ireland by Douglas Hyde)

The colour of each differs from the other,
Namely, the white and the crimson,
The blue and the green, the yellow and the red,
The black and the grey, the speckled and the dark,
the dull black and the grisly.

From the east comes the crimson wind,
From the south the white,
From the north the black,
From the west the dun.

The red and the yellow winds are produced
Between the white and the crimson, the green and the grey
Between the grisly and the white, the grey and the ciar
Between the grisly and the jet black, the dark and the mottled
Between the black and the crimson.

Different wind characteristics, numbers and colors are given in: Hibernica Minora, Saltair na Rann and the Celtic Psalter of Oengus the Culdee


Even though the zodiac has 12 houses they only really correspond to the 4 elements though? Correct? The chinese system links to their 5 elements such as the year of the fire Tiger, the year of the wood ox etc

Different systems of astrology assign various elements to the months/houses. Not every system uses the classical four elements or the Chinese five element system. Even with these assigning systems the elements are tempered (influenced) by their location in the zodiac/seasons.

Some systems assign the sifns to deities, demons and ancestors while others are all deity systems Druidic and Celtic systems have three forms of earth, three of water/fluids and three of air/sky. Fire is considered to be something that transmutes and runs through these elements in such a way that it reminds one of kundalini. Moern Wiccan systems seem to assign this affinity to spirit, seeing it has the culmination or connecting point of the classical four elements.

Searles O'Dubhain