Otherkin <> Shape Shifters

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Not sure this is the right place for this in that it deals more so with a Shamanic Practice. However, I felt that it also goes beyond the singular Shamanic concept in discussion.

On another site I was reading a thread that dealt with the notion of Otherkin. Now whether one is or is not part of another race is not the point of this thread.

However, it did make me think about the sensation that one may experience while Shape Shifting and the lingering affect / effect that may occur with it. Not only occur but may continue for a good bit of time before the experience has completely left the body.

As a follower of a shamanic pathwalk the notion of Shape Shifting has been a part of it for years. Many groups make mention of changing into their power animals or totems. Can't recall the link but some have societies within their grouping that are based around specific animals that the members shift into.

For instance Dragon's play a large role in my fantasy world, my spiritual world and even my mythological interest and readings. So it was not unusual to me to experience the notion of shape shifting while on journey into a dragon.

To feel the arms and legs stretch and become light. The sensation of wings and shifting of ones entire body structure. To have the vision change and the position of viewing things change as the body (Psychological and mental change) becomes Draconian in nature. The same holds true with regard to the sensation of changes regardless to what I have shape shifted to.

So while one is "Shape Shifted" one may fully experience the sensations of whatever creature they have shifted to. Granted more often than not one hears of people that shape shift into their power animal or maybe totem animal.

Yet if one truly believed they were of another species I suppose the belief in such could create the sensations of actually being that other race and thus experiencing it.

To some extent it is equitable to the notion of the "Were" creature and a human becoming such. Though some do consider the "Were" facet simply to be a person that has shape shifted so frequently that they actually begin to believe they have become said creature.

Yet I wonder if a person under goes Shape Shifting but is not aware of what it is or how it works, or even that they are doing so, might they not assume they are otherkin? It makes it so much easier to accept than saying they are "Were" creatures.

But for me it is Shape Shifting, which allows me to "Feel" my totem and power animal. Sometimes the very requirement I need when I journey and travel the other realms in trance or quest.

[Shaedema]

In my experience Otherkin think differently than people do because there is an added (or substituted) instinct that guides their actions. Something that makes more sense to them then the 'rational' thinking of people. If an Otherkin tried to have a conversation with a normal person about say Hunting...there would be terms and emotions that the person wouldn't understand but the Otherkin would.

Shape Shifters are still 'rational' people at their core. They are aware that they aren't truly the shape they can assume. The instincts and actions of the shape they've assumed seem odd/alien to them at first. To use my Otherkin example- if a Shape Shifter and a normal person were discussing Hunting the Shape Shifter would use the more traditional descriptions and invoke the traditional emotions.

[Twinkle]

I've always found the concept of shapeshifting fascinating - and honestly, from a shamanic perspective it makes absolute sense.

Otherkin, imo would be different because they think they *are* part animal instead of shifting into their totem.

At least I think that's how it goes. I'm open to being corrected.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

We are ALL animals...some of us just retain traits
of evolutionary ancestry , such as my ability to smell
out people , and their emotional state , or fears...

Wolf sense...far more than that though...:smileroll

And yes...I shapeshift , also...:uhhuhuh:

[Twinkle]

Shawn -

I'm well aware that we're animals - but my confusion lies in that if one was actually "part animal" there would be some sort of chromosomal or biological proof of that within the person claiming it.

I like to nap and stretch - it doesn't make me a cat.

Maybe I'm missing something - can one be part wearwolf, cat, elf, etc - with no evidence of such physiologically speaking? And if they could, how would one be able to verify that as fact, rather than delusion?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Figured you were...

I stated it for accuracy...

As far as proving anything to anyone...

Don't have to...does not matter...

But...yes , as Native Elders have spoken to me ,
about this...some of us just retain what we once were...

As senses of that animal...mine is wolf...


Shawn -

I'm well aware that we're animals - but my confusion lies in that if one was actually "part animal" there would be some sort of chromosomal or biological proof of that within the person claiming it.

I like to nap and stretch - it doesn't make me a cat.

Maybe I'm missing something - can one be part wearwolf, cat, elf, etc - with no evidence of such physiologically speaking? And if they could, how would one be able to verify that as fact, rather than delusion?

[*oonagh*]

i'm not sure i understand what this is. is this a state of mind? would you please enlighten me?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

In my Tradition , all existence , as percieved , is a
"state of mind"...:smileroll

However , yes...and , as I was told , long ago...

We were stone , then plant , then animal...

Now , we are human...and that too , shall change...

Our soul retains memory...

All the above was spoken to me , from a Native
Elder's teaching , and perspective , within tradition...:uhhuhuh:
i'm not sure i understand what this is. is this a state of mind? would you please enlighten me?

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

We are ALL animals...some of us just retain traits
of evolutionary ancestry , such as my ability to smell
out people , and their emotional state , or fears...

Wolf sense...far more than that though...:smileroll

And yes...I shapeshift , also...:uhhuhuh:



Glad I'm not the only one that has the smell thing going on...:uhhuhuh:

[Caitlin.ann]

i'm not sure i understand what this is. is this a state of mind? would you please enlighten me?

I'll do my best to explain. Basically otherkin believe they aren't simply human, though very few (and the few are the fringe) believe they are physically part something else, most believe they are emotionally, mentally and spiritually part something else. This is where therianthropy and otherkin become confused. Therianthropy is the belief that one is part (existing extinct) animal in some form or have been that animal in many lives before. I've heard it explained that they feel they are 'trans-species', similar to being 'transgendered', however they feel they are born into the wrong body instead of gender and should be in an animal body. Some believe their souls are animals and their bodies are human.

Otherkin on the other hand believe they are part fae, elf, demon, angel, dragon, etc. (all mythological creatures can be considered otherkin). This is exactly like therianthropy however instead of being part existing or extinct animal, they are part mythological creature. Some claim to be part of several different types of beings. There is even a branch termed 'otakukin' which is basically an otherkin which is part anime character.


Otakukin-a combination of the words otaku and otherkin--was coined to specifically refer to those otherkin who are heavily influenced by, live with/in, deal with, or are otherwise intimately connected to an Anime/Manga/Live-Action/VGM or related 'dimension', 'world', or paradigm. The initial concept of a supposedly 'fictional' paradigm and/or cosmology having partial or complete basis in an alternative reality is not uncommon among otherkin.

Link to Quote (http://otakukin.otherkin.net/)

And..

Otherkin.net (http://otherkin.net/index.html)

Let me add that there are several different theories, thoughts and opinions on both therianthropy and otherkin that I could not go through them all above and I only posted a brief summary. Some believe they were born in the wrong body, some believe they spent many lives as another organism, others believe both parts of them are completely integrated equally, etc.

[Louisvillian]

My opinion about otherkin?
Words would end up being taken offensively.
So, this will have to do:
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Basically , well posted , SacredSin...

And nice to hear that , Kchoye...:thumbsup:

And , yes , Louisvillian...what else could we expect ?...LOL...:smileroll

However , this is part of some people's path...

And we would not want to pathbash , would we ?

...:bigredgri...

[Caitlin.ann]

Basically , well posted , SacredSin...

And nice to hear that , Kchoye...:thumbsup:

And , yes , Louisvillian...what else could we expect ?...LOL...:smileroll

However , this is part of some people's path...

And we would not want to pathbash , would we ?

...:bigredgri...

Not just a part of their path. Vampirism is often included in 'otherkin' however I do not count vampirism as anything related to otherkin. They are two separate things. However there are many therians and likewise otherkin who remain quiet and are not in the spotlight just like those in the vampire community. They are often misudnerstood and for that I can empathize. Its not just their path, its part of who they are.

[Nicholas]

If Otakukin is part of someones path you can put me down for path wreaking balling instead of path bashing.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Agreed , SacredSin...

Just thought it would be good to put it that way , to set a tone for the thread...
other threads on this , like the vampire threads , tend to , shall I say...go askew...:uhhuhuh:


Not just a part of their path. Vampirism is often included in 'otherkin' however I do not count vampirism as anything related to otherkin. They are two separate things. However there are many therians and likewise otherkin who remain quiet and are not in the spotlight just like those in the vampire community. They are often misudnerstood and for that I can empathize. Its not just their path, its part of who they are.

[Twinkle]

Well, you know....if someone "feels" they are part elf or whatever, I can't really argue that.

I just am not sure how these feelings actually equate to something called otherkin - which would actually be some sort of mutation - but I guess it would be on the spiritual level, since there is no physical proof of such a thing occurring.

But then again, the symptoms manifest on a physical level - so there would need to be some sort of correlation between a spiritual feeling manifesting into a physical urge (like the urge for warm blood or raw meat).

Personally, I'd want to rule out any physical causes for such things - but you know, if people choose to believe they are part whatever - no one is stopping them.

[Caitlin.ann]

Agreed , SacredSin...

Just thought it would be good to put it that way , to set a tone for the thread...other threads on this , like the vampire threads , tend
to , shall I say...go askew...:uhhuhuh:

Oh god don't even get me started on the vampire threads. :goodgrief

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Ah...obscure technical linguistics...

Very good , Nicholas...

( As in smog , is "industrial haze" )...LOL...:uhhuhuh:


If Otakukin is part of someones path you can put me down for path wreaking balling instead of path bashing.

[Caitlin.ann]

Well, you know....if someone "feels" they are part elf or whatever, I can't really argue that.

I just am not sure how these feelings actually equate to something called otherkin - which would actually be some sort of mutation - but I guess it would be on the spiritual level, since there is no physical proof of such a thing occurring.

But then again, the symptoms manifest on a physical level - so there would need to be some sort of correlation between a spiritual feeling manifesting into a physical urge (like the urge for warm blood or raw meat).

Personally, I'd want to rule out any physical causes for such things - but you know, if people choose to believe they are part whatever - no one is stopping them.

Most believe it is a spiritual or astral mutation or additionally emotional and mental. I am more skeptical of otherkin than I am therians, to be perfectly honest.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

It is the differing definitions of "otherkin" ,
which SacredSin posted...therianthropy ,
being what I could be classed by , if I had
to accept a definition...

Yet again...it is my experience , not just belief...

And , yes , Twinkle...when someone attacked me...

I "came to" , on all fours , on top of them...teeth
at their throat , and growling...:smileroll

But that was 13 years ago...:bigredgri


Well, you know....if someone "feels" they are part elf or whatever, I can't really argue that.

I just am not sure how these feelings actually equate to something called otherkin - which would actually be some sort of mutation - but I guess it would be on the spiritual level, since there is no physical proof of such a thing occurring.

But then again, the symptoms manifest on a physical level - so there would need to be some sort of correlation between a spiritual feeling manifesting into a physical urge (like the urge for warm blood or raw meat).

Personally, I'd want to rule out any physical causes for such things - but you know, if people choose to believe they are part whatever - no one is stopping them.

[Louisvillian]

However , this is part of some people's path...
That doesn't necessarily make it sane. :rolleyes:
If someone genuinely thinks they are part-non-human-animal or something, then they're probably quite loony. Especially if they think they're part-creature-that-doesn't-even-exist.


If Otakukin is part of someones path you can put me down for path wrecking balling instead of path bashing.
:thumbsup:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I can understand your point , yet...

Some would say belief in a "Lord and Lady" ,
as in Wiccan belief , is not sane...

And is that considered pathbashing ?


That doesn't make it sane. :rolleyes:
If someone genuinely thinks they are part nonhuman animal or something, then they're probably quite loony. Especially if they think they're part-creature-that-doesn't-even-exist.


:thumbsup:

[Louisvillian]

And is that considered pathbashing ?
Not necessarily. I'd just consider it to be a different opinion. I'm not easily offended, I guess.

And there is a big difference between bashing a path in its entirety, and criticising one detail of it. Especially if the detail directly contradicts with reality, as otherkin and otakukin do.

[Nicholas]

Not necessarily. I'd just consider it to be a different opinion. I'm not easily offended, I guess.

And there is a big difference between bashing a path in its entirety, and criticising one detail of it. Especially if the detail directly contradicts with reality, as otherkin and otakukin do.


I'm actually a gundam stuck in the body of a human being...

lmfao!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I do not think we will ever have a "serious"
"otherkin" , or "vampire" thread , on MW...:smileroll

Not one which lets people believe as they will...:uhhuhuh:

Thus the parentheses...lol

( what is a gundam ? )

[Shaedema]

If someone genuinely thinks they are part-non-human-animal or something, then they're probably quite loony. Especially if they think they're part-creature-that-doesn't-even-exist.


I don't think they are loony.

In fact I know quite a few people (including myself) who consider themselves Non-Human, and consider it an honor that we aren't.

Being Human isn't always the 'best' creature to be. :)

[Louisvillian]

( what is a gundam ? )
I stare at you hopelessly and with pity for not knowing the joys of the show Mobile Suit Gundam. It is one of the most influential anime of all time.


In fact I know quite a few people (including myself) who consider themselves Non-Human, and consider it an honor that we aren't.
:wtf:
Look, it's very simple. If you are biologically human, you're human. Period.
Any other notion is quite absurd. Especially things that fly in the face of reality.

[Shaedema]

:wtf:
Look, it's very simple. If you are biologically human, you're human. Period.

So, those who are raised as animals are still human? Is there nothing more to being human than DNA?

Because I've always thought that there was something more to being human. Supposedly we have rationality and a host of other traits that 'make' people Human. But if I'm wrong and DNA is all that is required....*shrugs*

[Shawn Blackwolf]

This is where consciousness studies would apply ,
in one of the definitions of otherkin...

Not "delusion" , as viewed by those in that reality tunnel...

What is consciousness ?

What is belief ?

And what is reality , as defined by personal consciousness ,
and perception ?

Are we limited by DNA , and five senses ?

[Caitlin.ann]

So, those who are raised as animals are still human? Is there nothing more to being human than DNA?

Because I've always thought that there was something more to being human. Supposedly we have rationality and a host of other traits that 'make' people Human. But if I'm wrong and DNA is all that is required....*shrugs*

You are always going to be physically human. Now correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying you feel spiritually something else, correct?

[Nicholas]

So, those who are raised as animals are still human? Is there nothing more to being human than DNA?

But if I'm wrong and DNA is all that is required....*shrugs*

Absolutely we are just another species just as all the other intelligent hominids before us we too will end up extinct at some point. I really don't see why we need to think ourselves any different than that. If a chimpanzee suddenly said "Hello" they would still be a chimpanzee just a talking one.

[Louisvillian]

Because I've always thought that there was something more to being human. Supposedly we have rationality and a host of other traits that 'make' people Human. But if I'm wrong and DNA is all that is required....*shrugs*
The "rationality" and "other traits" are tied to our DNA. Capability of speech, complex cerebral functions, brain-to-size ratio, etc. are there because of our genes. This is basic evolutionary biology.

[Shaedema]

You are always going to be physically human. Now correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying you feel spiritually something else, correct?

Spiritually I try to align myself with the Asian Dragon, though that hasn't always worked out.

Physically, I tend to have more of a 'wolf' reaction.

I have a fascination with smells. I let my body say what I cannot find words for.

What I was questioning in Louisvillan's post was the fact that DNA is the defining factor.

I have no doubt that I will look Human. And I have no doubt that much of my behavior will continue to be human. But some have been raised to be an Animal. And will act like an animal and in their eyes will always see the world as Animal.

[Shaedema]

The "rationality" and "other traits" are tied to our DNA. Capability of speech, complex cerebral functions, brain-to-size ratio, etc. are there because of our genes. This is basic evolutionary biology.

Being able to rationalize isn't limited to the Human species. And scientists are quickly discovering that those "other traits" once thought of as Human aren't limited to the species either.

As for capability of speech....what can be considered speech? A noise? A growl? A screech? Or maybe it is the ability to understand one another?

[Louisvillian]

Being able to rationalize isn't limited to the Human species. And scientists are quickly discovering that those "other traits" once thought of as Human aren't limited to the species either.

Yeah, other animals have those traits. But they have a different genetic structure. Thus, they're not humans.

If we instead went with your logic that "certain traits define a human", then those other animals would be considered human. Which they certainly are not.

[Shaedema]

Yeah, other animals have those traits. But they have a different genetic structure. Thus, they're not humans.

If we instead went with your logic that "certain traits define a human", then those other animals would be considered human. Which they certainly are not.

Apparently I read your post wrong then. I thought you were presenting those traits as being only Human traits along a biological/evolutionary line.

I wouldn't call another creature Human. Nor would I suppose that Humans have the same traits as other Creatures. To each their own.....

[sparrowspirit]

I can see a heated debate in the future...

and as Shawn said, we'll never have a decent Otherkin or Vampire thread on MW.

In my opinion, I respect everyone's belief's even if my opinion is disagreeable or different. yet, I wouldn't jump down someone's throat for expressing how it is they feel or perceive to feel on the subject.

I feel differently about someone saying "yes, I believe myself to be Otherkin" and someone saying "yes, I am a vampire." for me, one is believable and the other, while I'd still hold believable, I'd need some sort of proof.

and those are some of my opinions.
-Tina

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I don't think they are loony.

In fact I know quite a few people (including myself) who consider themselves Non-Human, and consider it an honor that we aren't.

Being Human isn't always the 'best' creature to be. :)

Shaedema,

Thank you for sharing this. I think it is important that those who have the "animal mindset" or are "dual natured" if you will should feel free to post without fear of ridicule. I myself tend to have more of an animal reaction than a human one when it comes to "territory" be it, a physical space, possessions, or even people. I also prefer uncooked foods to cooked. I get a "sense" from people by their body language and smell more than verbal cues.

Does this make me a spiritual "shape-shifter" I honestly don't know. I think that some people are just closer to their animal "roots" so to speak. The fact that they honor that by claiming the title of shape-shifter is noble IMO. It takes a lot of balls to tell the world that you are proud of your animal traits.

However someones belief manifests is up to them. It is not up to any of us to judge. It certainly isn't up to us to ridicule. I'll admit it, when I first read the title of the thread and the first couple of posts, I chucked a bit. I'm just not comfortable seeing someone called out for believing they are "part something else" when in all reality, every single other person on this site something just as far fetched just in a matter of perspective and degrees. (run on sentence thank you I know)

If someone wants to discuss their belief let them do it without fear of being made fun of.:thumbsup:

[Shaedema]

I can see a heated debate in the future...



I hope not. While I'm curious about other opinions, I like sharing mine even more. :bigredgri

[Twinkle]

Most animals have a much smaller cerebral cortex than humans - that means what they are is purely instinctual.

Humans (along with dolphins and chimpanzees) have much larger cerebral cortex and frontal lobe. It's now been proven that chimpanzees exhibit culture. They are not able to teach that culture, though - so the culture is not "taught", it's a sort of like if another chimpanzee sees another peeling a banana, they will be able to emulate it - yet a chimpanzee cannot verbalize to another "how" to peel the banana.


What Shawn described would be a purely instinctual response - growling, on all fours, etc. This would not be an indicator of an evolved human - yet humans (especially those in psychotic episodes), can and will exhibit purely animalistic behavior such as what is being mentioned, here.

I'm not implying that otherkin are psychotic - but what I am respectfully submitting is that there may be issues with brain chemistry and not so much with an astral mutation.

There was a famous case where a man was sure he was possessed by a wearwolf demon. He would become "wolflike" and attack other humans.

An exorcism actually relieved him of his symptoms - but he could have just easily been described as an Otherkin - or - simply psychotic.

In any event, it's a very interesting phenomena.

[Shaedema]

If someone wants to discuss their belief let them do it without fear of being made fun of.:thumbsup:

:uhhuhuh:
I agree whole heartedly.

[evergreen]

I believe I was a cat in a past life. _inabox_

I'm not really sure what the OP's question was, to be honest. I'm not at all familiar with shape shifting, so I'm not sure how to respond either. Someone want to clear me up on this?

[Shaedema]

Most animals have a much smaller cerebral cortex than humans - that means what they are is purely instinctual.

Humans (along with dolphins and chimpanzees) have much larger cerebral cortex and frontal lobe. It's now been proven that chimpanzees exhibit culture. They are not able to teach that culture, though - so the culture is not "taught", it's a sort of like if another chimpanzee sees another peeling a banana, they will be able to emulate it - yet a chimpanzee cannot verbalize to another "how" to peel the banana.


What Shawn described would be a purely instinctual response - growling, on all fours, etc. This would not be an indicator of an evolved human - yet humans (especially those in psychotic episodes), can and will exhibit purely animalistic behavior such as what is being mentioned, here.

I'm not implying that otherkin are psychotic - but what I am respectfully submitting is that there may be issues with brain chemistry and not so much with an astral mutation.

There was a famous case where a man was sure he was possessed by a wearwolf demon. He would become "wolflike" and attack other humans.

An exorcism actually relieved him of his symptoms - but he could have just easily been described as an Otherkin - or - simply psychotic.

In any event, it's a very interesting phenomena.


Otherkin (as far as I know) are aware that we are acting in an Animal way. We don't blame our Other Nature for our actions and expect to be forgiven or have those actions ignored.

In fact to have those actions ignored (or trying to blame our Animal Nature) is chaotic for us.

[Caitlin.ann]

Just wondering and maybe I missed a post, but what type of kin do we have here?

[Nicholas]

Just wondering and maybe I missed a post, but what type of kin do we have here?


Gundamkin! *slashes people with beam saber*

RAWR!

Sarcasm noted yet?

[Shaedema]

I believe I was a cat in a past life. _inabox_

I'm not really sure what the OP's question was, to be honest. I'm not at all familiar with shape shifting, so I'm not sure how to respond either. Someone want to clear me up on this?

I don't think there really was a question. Just a kind of statement.

For me the difference between Shape Shifting and being Otherkin is that that Shape Shifters are Human, in thought/action. Otherkin have experiences and react as an Animal.

[Shaedema]

Just wondering and maybe I missed a post, but what type of kin do we have here?

I never actually tried to label myself so I couldn't tell you. :bigredgri

[Caitlin.ann]

I never actually tried to label myself so I couldn't tell you. :bigredgri

Then what would lead you to label yourself 'other'?

[David19]

Shawn -

I'm well aware that we're animals - but my confusion lies in that if one was actually "part animal" there would be some sort of chromosomal or biological proof of that within the person claiming it.

I like to nap and stretch - it doesn't make me a cat.

Maybe I'm missing something - can one be part wearwolf, cat, elf, etc - with no evidence of such physiologically speaking? And if they could, how would one be able to verify that as fact, rather than delusion?

This is just my opinion, but, if you accept the idea of reincarnation, then, it might be possible for someone to have past lives as a demon, animal, whatever, etc (in both Buddhism and Hinduism, but, Buddhism especially, you can be reborn either as a human, a demon, a celestial being, even a deity, but, you're not stuck in one position forever, in other words, a demon can ascend).

I'm not sure how one could make sure it's factual rather than just opinion, but, maybe, if they've had really strong past life memories, that they are sure weren't just their imaginations or fantasies (conscious or subconscious), maybe if they did some divination work too.

I hope helps, 'cause I kind of find the idea really interesting too :).

[David19]

That doesn't necessarily make it sane. :rolleyes:
If someone genuinely thinks they are part-non-human-animal or something, then they're probably quite loony. Especially if they think they're part-creature-that-doesn't-even-exist.

That same argument could be made for every single person on this forum, and every Theistic person, I mean, Wiccans believe in a God who has horns on his head and that he has a sexual relationship with his own mother, Christians believe a man 2000 years ago resurrected himself and ascended to another plane of existence, there's a whole lot of amazing powers that Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist Sages are said to have developed, etc, so, while I don't necessarily automatically believe it, I don't disbelieve it either. Plus, like I said above, in Buddhism (and, I think, Hinduism, as well as, to an extent, some forms of Judaism), it's accepted that people can reborn as many different beings, so, it might be likely someone was born in a Hell dimension as a demon in a past life, or whatever.

[Louisvillian]

Gundamkin! *slashes people with beam saber*
RAWR!
Eehh...I prefer the GP02A. Can't beat that good ol' thermonuclear boomstick. ;)

http://www.gearsonline.net/gundam/gundamgirls/proto-girl-01.jpg

[Shaedema]

Then what would lead you to label yourself 'other'?

Because Humans are....unreasonable is the best word I can come up with.

I haven't found anything in the Human environment that I can even begin to relate to. What makes Humans upset I see as the natural course of events. What makes Humans happy I see as destructive.

Why not embrace the part of me that makes sense?

I've been labeled as 'other' so that people can be comfortable around me. And I don't mind in the least. I claimed it as Mine because there isn't a term in words that I feel comfortable with.

[Nicholas]

Eehh...I prefer the GP02A. Can't beat that good ol' thermonuclear boomstick. ;)

http://www.gearsonline.net/gundam/gundamgirls/proto-girl-01.jpg

I'm a sucker for the classics. ;)

[Louisvillian]

What makes Humans upset I see as the natural course of events. What makes Humans happy I see as destructive.
A lot of people hold this opinion.
But it doesn't do anyone any good to reject one's humanity because of a few bad apples. Instead, one can be more productive by embracing one's humanity and attempting to change things for the better.

[Shaedema]

A lot of people hold this opinion.
But it doesn't do anyone any good to reject one's humanity because of a few bad apples. Instead, one can be more productive by embracing one's humanity and attempting to change things for the better.

I'm sure many do.

I haven't exactly rejected Humanity. I've placed it where it belongs (IMO) beside all other Creatures. It is no less important nor is it more important. True I've relied more on the Animal perceptions I have than I ever have on my Human traits. And that isn't likely to change.

I'm okay with that.

Why change a working system?

[Caitlin.ann]

My honest opinion, your case sounds more like escapism and denial, however to each their own.

[Shaedema]

My honest opinion, your case sounds more like escapism and denial, however to each their own.

And yet I'm happy, very honest/open, and I haven't a thing to escape from. *shrugs* Go figure. :hahugh:

Though I am curious....what would lead you to the denial bit?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

What Carlos Casteneda refered to as the "invader brain" ,
as said by Don Juan , is just that...the cerebral cortex...

It is the pons , medulla oblangata , and cerebellum , which
are activated by atavistic magic , for example...

Some who study consciousness , and magical systems , have
posited , it is the back of the brain , which brings "reality" into
being in the manifest world...

The frontal brain , on the other hand , allows the framing of
reality , or imaging , as well as other functions...

What is called the "primitive brain" , has more access , according
to some of us , to pure power , than the reasoning frontal lobe...

There are dangers with reasoning mind...

As there are dangers with the primal urge , and instinct...

Logic ? Unreason ?

I should choose chaos , over order , in the balance of the scale...

Primal power...the background to the universe...and brain...:bigredgri


Most animals have a much smaller cerebral cortex than humans - that means what they are is purely instinctual.

Humans (along with dolphins and chimpanzees) have much larger cerebral cortex and frontal lobe. It's now been proven that chimpanzees exhibit culture. They are not able to teach that culture, though - so the culture is not "taught", it's a sort of like if another chimpanzee sees another peeling a banana, they will be able to emulate it - yet a chimpanzee cannot verbalize to another "how" to peel the banana.


What Shawn described would be a purely instinctual response - growling, on all fours, etc. This would not be an indicator of an evolved human - yet humans (especially those in psychotic episodes), can and will exhibit purely animalistic behavior such as what is being mentioned, here.

I'm not implying that otherkin are psychotic - but what I am respectfully submitting is that there may be issues with brain chemistry and not so much with an astral mutation.

There was a famous case where a man was sure he was possessed by a wearwolf demon. He would become "wolflike" and attack other humans.

An exorcism actually relieved him of his symptoms - but he could have just easily been described as an Otherkin - or - simply psychotic.

In any event, it's a very interesting phenomena.

[Caitlin.ann]

And yet I'm happy, very honest/open, and I haven't a thing to escape from. *shrugs* Go figure. :hahugh:

Though I am curious....what would lead you to the denial bit?

Just an honest observation really that I decided to be blunt about. Denial because you seem to hate your own humanity and escapism because being "other" allows you to dissociate from that humanity which you seem to despise. You stated that you don't label yourself as a specific otherkin type which is rather abnormal for the otherkin community and alluded to the fact that someone else told you you were other and in addition to the distaste for humanity which you already had you went with it in order to dissociate from that which you dislike about yourself (humanity).

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Boy take off for a few hours and this one exploded into action.

When I started this topic it really was not about Otherkin, only the fact I had been reading a thread on them that made me wonder about the facet of Shape Shifting and it's relative sameness as some otherkin speak of.

I do not know to what degree I really truly believe otherkin to exist to. Though I do admit I find the notion of being the incarnation of an animal to be more accepting than say a daemon or angel or other type figure.

As a shape shifter one takes on the persona of their totem or power animal as a means of further connecting with them. In some capacity it's similar to the otherkin notion yet not quite the same. I suppose part of it might deal with the notion that even when we have shifted their is always a part of us that is human in awarness though it may be pushed to the back of the mind while shifted.

Yet shape shifting is usually a trait that is taught to the young but lost as one becomes an adult. We tell children to imagine themselves as this or that creature. To walk on all fours like a wolf, the howl or chirp or even growl. All things that try to bring the child into a state where they understand and know the animal they have shifted into.

So in that light many on the Shamanic pathway use shape shifting as a means of connecting to their totem, power animal or even spirit guides. It is used in the physical in the sense one may actually walk on all fours, sniff the wind, eat like said creature, etc. It is also used in the journey or projection mode as well. Used to escape the limitations or confinement of the human body and experience the journey world.

Ironically many journey and shift in their sleep and are unaware of the event. Yet they recall half dreamy the events of flying, yet not quite right. They may recall things such as seeing the world from a point that is totaly alien to them as they are never that low to the ground or so far above.

Some not only use the notion of shape shifting but incorporate the idea of skin walker into their pathway. To actually wear the skins of the animal in question and take on it's persona to the best of thier ability. To wear the bear suits, or feather suits or other animal suits.

Yes, I am and have shape shifted as part of my pathway. As such I am clearly a shape shifter as I have travelled and become one with my totems, guides, and power animals. While I have desired to be a skin walker to know it even better I have not had the chance to do so.

Otherkin, that one I would have to say no to based upon what some have stated as how otherkin see and understand.

[Shaedema]

Just an honest observation really that I decided to be blunt about. Denial because you seem to hate your own humanity and escapism because being "other" allows you to dissociate from that humanity which you seem to despise. You stated that you don't label yourself as a specific otherkin type which is rather abnormal for the otherkin community and alluded to the fact that someone else told you you were other and in addition to the distaste for humanity which you already had you went with it in order to dissociate from that which you dislike about yourself (humanity).

Interesting....I always wondered how some would see me. At least now I have an idea where some get the impressions they have of me. I still don't get it, but I have an idea. :smileroll Thanks for sharing.

[Shaedema]

Boy take off for a few hours and this one exploded into action.

When I started this topic it really was not about Otherkin, only the fact I had been reading a thread on them that made me wonder about the facet of Shape Shifting and it's relative sameness as some otherkin speak of.

I think the 'sameness' comes from the actions taken while the Shape Shifter is being the Animal and when the actions that Otherkin do naturally.

Though I do think that the actions themselves are as far as it goes. For me Shape Shifters still think through their actions and Otherkin just act. Yet the results may be the same.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

A lot of people hold this opinion.
But it doesn't do anyone any good to reject one's humanity because of a few bad apples. Instead, one can be more productive by embracing one's humanity and attempting to change things for the better.

Preaching for humanity eh? Could be considered proselytism for humanity against otherkin, considering that some follow it as a spiritual path.

I've seen enough of humanity to hold much the same belief. I have hope for it, but in most respects I agree with Shaedema. As far as I'm concerned, we're a bunch of monkeys in people suits, pretending to be human. The only difference between most people and animals is the fact that they deny their animal side.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

If we look into many ancient cultures , it is more than
shapeshifting as "normally" seen by modern day logical
based systems...

Many of the gods are pictured , and described as animals ,
as well as the ancestors of humans...

I , for one , utilize my wolfself , to stretch out the body ,
in a form of leap , across the abyss of hyperspace , in
certain journeying techniques...

Think of the image of the Enterprise , entering hyperspace...

I also walk , fly , and journey through the astral in wolf form...

It is natural , not selected by rational mind...

As the Native Elder said to me...

"You are Wolf Clan"

Immediately after viewing me...but that was 20 years after I
already knew...and walked between worlds that way...

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I think the 'sameness' comes from the actions taken while the Shape Shifter is being the Animal and when the actions that Otherkin do naturally.

What I find sort of ironic is that to some extent the otherkin are also shape shifters except that they shift to human form where the shape shifter shifts to animal form. But both have a natural form and persona they do naturally and one or more they shift into and assume for the moment.

Though I do think that the actions themselves are as far as it goes. For me Shape Shifters still think through their actions and Otherkin just act. Yet the results may be the same.

In initial stages I think I would agree with your conclusions. Yet I also find if one shifts into the same creature over and over the human though is easiler slipped away and the animal just becomes. There is not much though or consideration needed to become, one simply is.

[Shaedema]

What I find sort of ironic is that to some extent the otherkin are also shape shifters except that they shift to human form where the shape shifter shifts to animal form. But both have a natural form and persona they do naturally and one or more they shift into and assume for the moment.

I tend to think of that ability being similar to adaptation rather than Shape Shifting alone. Otherkin have to blend in to survive or risk their survival.


In initial stages I think I would agree with your conclusions. Yet I also find if one shifts into the same creature over and over the human though is easiler slipped away and the animal just becomes. There is not much though or consideration needed to become, one simply is.

I believe that no matter how frequently one hands control over to another (even Animal) there is still the ability to pull back into the Dominant mind. Now when that Dominant mind is convinced that the other is stronger there can be the Crossover. Yet I believe this is actually a bit more rare than anyone would think. Humans aren't known letting go of their memory, and that will always be the 'down fall' of just being another creature.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I tend to think of that ability being similar to adaptation rather than Shape Shifting alone. Otherkin have to blend in to survive or risk their survival.

I agree with that. Initially I think it would be more shape shifting but over time more adaptation and melding to hide in plain sieght.

I believe that no matter how frequently one hands control over to another (even Animal) there is still the ability to pull back into the Dominant mind.

True I suppose. Yet all of us also have the ability to allow the dormant or shadow self to take control. A process which usually occurs in such a way that the dominant mind is released. Almost like a sleep walker in action, where the dominate is actually removed.

Now when that Dominant mind is convinced that the other is stronger there can be the Crossover.

Definately agree on that one.

Yet I believe this is actually a bit more rare than anyone would think. Humans aren't known letting go of their memory, and that will always be the 'down fall' of just being another creature.

Actively aware perhaps but then we as a species are not always aware of all the facets of our nature. Nor do we always have full control over them. In that loss or lapse of control do we experince the more animalistic part of onesself.

Yet I tend to think that we release more often than we as a collective would care to admit. Possibly one reason we see the need to anamorph animals to make them more human, yet make humans more animal like.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Actively aware perhaps but then we as a species are not always aware of all the facets of our nature. Nor do we always have full control over them. In that loss or lapse of control do we experince the more animalistic part of onesself.


A true witch , shaman , etc....developes that control...




Yet I tend to think that we release more often than we as a collective would care to admit. Possibly one reason we see the need to anamorph animals to make them more human, yet make humans more animal like.

Many do not see any *need*...we just acknowledge what is there...

[Shaedema]

True I suppose. Yet all of us also have the ability to allow the dormant or shadow self to take control. A process which usually occurs in such a way that the dominant mind is released. Almost like a sleep walker in action, where the dominate is actually removed.

Maybe not removed...maybe just allowed to relax? I don't think the Dominant mind is actually ever removed from being Dominant. Though the dormant/Shadow self can become Dominant itself by Shape Shifting or by the Dominant mind recognizing the Animal.

Actively aware perhaps but then we as a species are not always aware of all the facets of our nature. Nor do we always have full control over them. In that loss or lapse of control do we experince the more animalistic part of onesself.

Yet I tend to think that we release more often than we as a collective would care to admit. Possibly one reason we see the need to anamorph animals to make them more human, yet make humans more animal like.

Animals in general aren't concerned with Memory as people see it. (Yes they remember but that's not what I'm trying to say.) Memory in this case would be the equivalent of Animals dreaming of being Human. Such Memories would eventually lead the Dominant mind to 'wake' again.

Kind of like taking a walk with an animal spirit guide and having them tell you it was time to go back. You want to stay, you're happy there, but you have to go back.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. :weirdsmil

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Animals in general aren't concerned with Memory as people see it. (Yes they remember but that's not what I'm trying to say.) Memory in this case would be the equivalent of Animals dreaming of being Human. Such Memories would eventually lead the Dominant mind to 'wake' again.

Kind of like taking a walk with an animal spirit guide and having them tell you it was time to go back. You want to stay, you're happy there, but you have to go back.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. :weirdsmil

Ok in that content it makes sense.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Atavistic Consciousness , Shaedema ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atavism




Animals in general aren't concerned with Memory as people see it. (Yes they remember but that's not what I'm trying to say.) Memory in this case would be the equivalent of Animals dreaming of being Human. Such Memories would eventually lead the Dominant mind to 'wake' again.

Kind of like taking a walk with an animal spirit guide and having them tell you it was time to go back. You want to stay, you're happy there, but you have to go back.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. :weirdsmil

[Shaedema]

Atavistic Consciousness , Shaedema ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atavism

Not quite what I meant. :weirdsmil

Perhaps I should have said daydreaming?

Ever had a Dream you'd swear was a memory from 5-20 years past? Or a memory that you forgot about and suddenly it came rushing back because a thought/smell/touch brought it back?

Something like that.

[Shaedema]

Ok in that content it makes sense.

I'm glad it does to someone. :weirdsmil I think I got lost in my reply. :smileroll

[MonSno_LeeDra]

A true witch , shaman , etc....developes that control...

Granted that is a level those of us on this pathwalk aim to achieve. Yet it is not a level that as general humanity all will achieve.

I find that even those of us who aim for that control at times may loose it. Something that triggers outburst anger initially as such though we regain that control quickly. Situations that might arise while we are fatigued or other factor's that negatively impact upon our control.

Many do not see any *need*...we just acknowledge what is there...

As a shamanic practioner I agree fully. As a member of the human race I recognize the "need" my species has to do such. Even if deep down I atribute that need to latent fears or placebos to make their world a little bit safer and understanding. Though on some levels I find it to be the dumbing down of humanity and the other people's that live upon this rock with us.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Understood where you are coming from...

Yet that is not my position...I hold the
repression of the natural tendency is
most destructive...

It is natural to feel anger , even rage...

Of course , it is also natural , to attain
complacent bliss...

"The Only Sin Is Restriction"

"Granted that is a level those of us on this pathwalk aim to achieve. Yet it is not a level that as general humanity all will achieve.

I find that even those of us who aim for that control at times may loose it. Something that triggers outburst anger initially as such though we regain that control quickly. Situations that might arise while we are fatigued or other factor's that negatively impact upon our control."

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Actually smell...first and foremost...as well touch...

is directly keyed to atavistic consciousness...

Underlying , subconscious memory...


Not quite what I meant. :weirdsmil

Perhaps I should have said daydreaming?

Ever had a Dream you'd swear was a memory from 5-20 years past? Or a memory that you forgot about and suddenly it came rushing back because a thought/smell/touch brought it back?

Something like that.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Understood where you are coming from...

Yet that is not my position...I hold the
repression of the natural tendency is
most destructive...

I don't disagree. Yet I think that at times one must control the duration and / or release. I suppose it's like the Beserker rage of old, a thing for combat or the moment but not much use beyond that. Yet like the rage also a thing that was natural though intensified and controlled to have greater affect / effect.


It is natural to feel anger , even rage...

Of course , it is also natural , to attain
complacent bliss...

Agree with that also. I think the struggle actually ensues when one tries to learn to balance the energy and use it to thier best position. Deny and you deny yourself, blindy surrender and you still deny yourself. Yet learn to embrance and utilize then I think one has found part of the key set to knowing themsleves and the universe.

Not only knowing but perhaps how to step between heart beats.


"The Only Sin Is Restriction"

...
,,,

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Nicely said , Mon Sno Lee Dra...:uhhuhuh:

[*oonagh*]

goodness. this thread has really gone places. i think i understand now what this is all about and it's fascinating. i can't understand why it wouldn't be valid. i mean, it's a spiritual thing and a mind-set. the same life force that runs through a wolf runs through a human or bird, etc. if a human feels the pull of that energy which is more strongly attached to a different species, so be it. if a human feels that he/she is spiritually an elf or dragon, so be it.

[Twinkle]

If it was just a spiritual thing I'd get it -

But when physical symptoms manifest - such as the craving for blood, or "coming to" on top of someone snarling and growling - it no longer becomes spiritual.

Shapeshifting, however *is*, as it occurs on the astral plane.

Claiming to be part wolf is no longer a statement of belief but a statement of fact - "I am otherkin".

The question then becomes - *what makes you think so?*

If the premise isn't valid to begin with, then I would question the validity of the belief - especially if it's not just a belief but a statement of fact.

If someone said " I believe I am part wolf", I'd ask the same question, but I wouldn't judge it's validity - it's not a statement of fact, but belief.

[Shaedema]

goodness. this thread has really gone places. i think i understand now what this is all about and it's fascinating. i can't understand why it wouldn't be valid. i mean, it's a spiritual thing and a mind-set. the same life force that runs through a wolf runs through a human or bird, etc. if a human feels the pull of that energy which is more strongly attached to a different species, so be it. if a human feels that he/she is spiritually an elf or dragon, so be it.

As with any belief/mind-set there will always be a question if it is sane or not. *wry grin* For myself I've enjoyed the responses and being able to share as well. :bigredgri

[Shaedema]

If it was just a spiritual thing I'd get it -

But when physical symptoms manifest - such as the craving for blood, or "coming to" on top of someone snarling and growling - it no longer becomes spiritual.

Shapeshifting, however *is*, as it occurs on the astral plane.

Claiming to be part wolf is no longer a statement of belief but a statement of fact - "I am otherkin".

The question then becomes - *what makes you think so?*

If the premise isn't valid to begin with, then I would question the validity of the belief - especially if it's not just a belief but a statement of fact.

If someone said " I believe I am part wolf", I'd ask the same question, but I wouldn't judge it's validity - it's not a statement of fact, but belief.

You'd have to question alot of Beliefs that have been around for centuries then. For those I've been involved with and those that I've read about each claim something that cannot be proven.

It isn't up to me to say if the belief is fact or fiction. Nor is it up to someone else to tell me that my beliefs are wrong.

I will say that as far as genetics are concerned there is no way to prove is one is part wolf or what have you. It is also impossible to tell if someone who was female was actually supposed to be male with genetics as well. The energy/belief that they have says they are. And for them that is all that is required.

[Twinkle]

I wouldn't question a belief if it's a belief based on subjective perception.

I would question (and I think we all should) if there is a statement of fact that is being used to substantiate that belief.

That's the real issue - it's not belief bashing - it's asking someone to flesh out that belief if they are using something like "fact" to back it up.

[*oonagh*]

As with any belief/mind-set there will always be a question if it is sane or not. *wry grin* For myself I've enjoyed the responses and being able to share as well. :bigredgri


ha! i guess that's true. stands to reason that sanity would always be an issue when dealing with the mind. :uhhuhuh:

[Shaedema]

I wouldn't question a belief if it's a belief based on subjective perception.

I would question (and I think we all should) if there is a statement of fact that is being used to substantiate that belief.

That's the real issue - it's not belief bashing - it's asking someone to flesh out that belief if they are using something like "fact" to back it up.

And perceptions are able change as are "facts". What was once thought of as something undeniably 'true' can be shown to be a mispreception on the part of the observer.

I think the question comes down to defining what is Human? What makes that the one and only 'fact' that makes a person Human. Genetics alone can't be the answer because there have been cases where a child has been brought up by animals and will retain that animal nature throughout their lives.

It cannot be just a mental ability because it is being shown that the Human species isn't the only ones who have 'higher' brain functions.

Which just leaves Belief. Which is something much harder to nail down with 'fact'.

[Twinkle]

Well - I know that it's biologically impossible to mix wolf with human.

Therefore claiming "I am part wolf" would be, in fact - wrong.

If one is saying that they merge with the wolf on the astral plane, then I can't argue that.

[Shaedema]

ha! i guess that's true. stands to reason that sanity would always be an issue when dealing with the mind. :uhhuhuh:

:hahugh: And it is always a matter of if someone views on sanity relate to the majority or if they are in minority.

[Shaedema]

Well - I know that it's biologically impossible to mix wolf with human.

Therefore claiming "I am part wolf" would be, in fact - wrong.

If one is saying that they merge with the wolf on the astral plane, then I can't argue that.

And biologically I would agree with you (until science comes up with a way to do that). But what about behavior? What about 'knowing' that you are supposed to be something else?

Just like a female being sure that they are supposed to be male.

If that is possible and there is no genetic evidence that they should have been male then being born in the wrong body is possible. Following that line of thought it is entirely possible that a being can be born into the 'wrong' species too.

[Twinkle]

Possible - but if you have two biological human parents I think you would be hard pressed to say that you were born into the wrong species.

You most certainly were created in the "correct" species. If you were born with a corkscrew tail and a pig snout, then you could probably argue it more effectively.

If one feels they are something else - that's a subjective feeling that can't be argued.

My issue is with claiming to be "part" of another species that manifests with physical symptoms as some sort of proof - when that proof does not exist on any scientific level to validate the claim.

[Nicholas]

Possible - but if you have two biological human parents I think you would be hard pressed to say that you were born into the wrong species.

You most certainly were created in the "correct" species. If you were born with a corkscrew tail and a pig snout, then you could probably argue it more effectively.

If one feels they are something else - that's a subjective feeling that can't be argued.

My issue is with claiming to be "part" of another species that manifests with physical symptoms as some sort of proof - when that proof does not exist on any scientific level to validate the claim.
:thumbsup:

[Shaedema]

Possible - but if you have two biological human parents I think you would be hard pressed to say that you were born into the wrong species.

You most certainly were created in the "correct" species. If you were born with a corkscrew tail and a pig snout, then you could probably argue it more effectively.

If one feels they are something else - that's a subjective feeling that can't be argued.

My issue is with claiming to be "part" of another species that manifests with physical symptoms as some sort of proof - when that proof does not exist on any scientific level to validate the claim.

Genetically as the fetus is developing we go through the evolutionary stages that made the human form. And some are born with tails, webbing between their digits, and some retain other features that as humans we thought we've out grown. Would that indicate that the person was born into the wrong species?

They change those with surgery to make the appearance of being 'normal'. So that they would fit in. Usually before the kid ever realizes that there was something different.


As for having two human parents...that starts to get into the grey area of a Controlling Entity or if we just randomly come into existence.

[Twinkle]

Genetically as the fetus is developing we go through the evolutionary stages that made the human form. And some are born with tails, webbing between their digits, and some retain other features that as humans we thought we've out grown. Would that indicate that the person was born into the wrong species?

They change those with surgery to make the appearance of being 'normal'. So that they would fit in. Usually before the kid ever realizes that there was something different.


As for having two human parents...that starts to get into the grey area of a Controlling Entity or if we just randomly come into existence.



Apples to oranges - gender identity in a human child is a different thing that species confusion.

[Shaedema]

Apples to oranges - gender identity in a human child is a different thing that species confusion.

Sorry I must not have been very clear in my post.

To clarify my last post- I was talking about how as the fetus develops it goes through the evolutionary process that developed the human form, no gender implied yet. It has fins at one point and a tail that eventually disappears. Yet sometimes those features remain after birth.

Would that be scientific proof when that 'person' comes back years later saying they are part frog or dolphin?

Yes, I'm using a simplified version of the process. There are many developmental stages but that would take to long. :)

[Twinkle]

Actually - the fetus is considered female until testes develop and drop - or not - and the clitoris elongates into a penis - or not.

There a chromosomes embedded in each sperm that determine the sex of a child.

The evolutionary process of a human being born is quite clear - and has absolutely nothing to do with animal DNA.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

No...it would not necessarily be wrong...

It could mean the people in the conversation do not
agree on the terms defining the boundaries of the "body"...

Some people do not believe in soul...it is not wrong for a
person to say : "I have a soul" , just because some do not
like it , nor can not prove it with their empirical data...

And if they try to tell me so , they can address my
posterior parts ,. whoever they are...:bigredgri

( Just an example , as that did not happen here )


I can say "I am part wolf" , because I live in the physical ,
mental , emotional , astral and spiritual realms , all at the
same time...not seperate...

( It is my focus on one , which determines which I am
operating in more , at any time...physical is the default
setting out of all of them...:uhhuhuh: )

And for someone to determine growling is not "spiritual"...

...ROTFLMAO...

I can not say on MW what I want to , to that...so I will
laugh...:bigredgri

Many want to pigeonhole everyone in their own logical ,
rational based , scientific definitions , which will never
work...we are all unique beings , and concensus reality
in this type of situation , only works , when it is concensus...

Around the world , in every culture...

Not just in a limited population , nor worldview , determined
by those with a narrow reality tunnel , regarding how others
may see this many dimensional reality , and how we are bound
or allowed to speak of it...



Well - I know that it's biologically impossible to mix wolf with human.

Therefore claiming "I am part wolf" would be, in fact - wrong.

If one is saying that they merge with the wolf on the astral plane, then I can't argue that.

[Shaedema]

Actually - the fetus is considered female until testes develop and drop - or not - and the clitoris elongates into a penis - or not.

There a chromosomes embedded in each sperm that determine the sex of a child.

The evolutionary process of a human being born is quite clear - and has absolutely nothing to do with animal DNA.

I never said that Animal DNA was present. Only that through the evolutionary process that fetuses go through they exhibit the characteristics of other species. And that sometimes those features remain after birth.

It could be seen as being related to another creature, since in our genetic structure contains the information of our past biological evolution. A tweak here or there in the developmental process and a fetus can be 'thrown backwards'.

Sometimes the tweak isn't physical.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

To add another dimenson to this think about the notion of how one merges with the totem or spirit animal and at times actually becomes one with them. On some occasions the totem will merge it's essence with that of thier ward in the mundane. Some difficult lessons have required the essence to merge in order to fully convey the sensation.

When the animal is the totem the person in "Essence" becomes a whole with parts of thier humanity and totem present. Yet no physical identifiers are testable to actually show the inner presence of the totem's spirit. Can't say how long the merger might hold as I've only experienced it for a very short duration.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Yeah...

I had a girlfriend...pint sized lady , in her 30's...

Who retained the prehensile tail , at birth...

Doctors left part of it , and you could feel the bone...

They laughingly called her part monkey...

She was a nurse , and worked with doctors...

She was proud of being part monkey , was born in
the year of the monkey...acted like one...and stated
she was part monkey...on all levels...

I know what you are talking about , also , Shaedema...


I never said that Animal DNA was present. Only that through the evolutionary process that fetuses go through they exhibit the characteristics of other species. And that sometimes those features remain after birth.

It could be seen as being related to another creature, since in our genetic structure contains the information of our past biological evolution. A tweak here or there in the developmental process and a fetus can be 'thrown backwards'.

Sometimes the tweak isn't physical.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Good point , MonSno LeeDra...


To add another dimenson to this think about the notion of how one merges with the totem or spirit animal and at times actually becomes one with them. On some occasions the totem will merge it's essence with that of thier ward in the mundane. Some difficult lessons have required the essence to merge in order to fully convey the sensation.

When the animal is the totem the person in "Essence" becomes a whole with parts of thier humanity and totem present. Yet no physical identifiers are testable to actually show the inner presence of the totem's spirit. Can't say how long the merger might hold as I've only experienced it for a very short duration.

[Caitlin.ann]

goodness. this thread has really gone places. i think i understand now what this is all about and it's fascinating. i can't understand why it wouldn't be valid. i mean, it's a spiritual thing and a mind-set. the same life force that runs through a wolf runs through a human or bird, etc. if a human feels the pull of that energy which is more strongly attached to a different species, so be it. if a human feels that he/she is spiritually an elf or dragon, so be it.

It gets hairy when/if someone starts claiming to physically shift though. Whatever one feels mentally, spiritually or emotionally though I don't mind, to each their own as long as they're not a danger to others.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

It gets hairy when/if someone starts claiming to physically shift though. Whatever one feels mentally, spiritually or emotionally though I don't mind, to each their own as long as they're not a danger to others.

This I agree with. A physical shift is something that I am a bit incredulous about.

[Caitlin.ann]

This I agree with. A physical shift is something that I am a bit incredulous about.

I heard it several times on a vampire board I'm..until they got rid of the therian forums. And I do believe I've heard it a few times here. In some cases it turns out to be a predator luring out young girls or at least someone with non-favorable intentions. I'm always wary of those folks.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I heard it several times on a vampire board I'm..until they got rid of the therian forums. And I do believe I've heard it a few times here. In some cases it turns out to be a predator luring out young girls or at least someone with non-favorable intentions. I'm always wary of those folks.

I don't have any experience with the other boards or forums on the topic so I can't really speak to that. I get a little iffy when the laws of physics are being defied.

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't have any experience with the other boards or forums on the topic so I can't really speak to that. I get a little iffy when the laws of physics are being defied.

That too. Usually by teenagers. :p

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

That too. Usually by teenagers. :p

Indeed.

[Shaedema]

To add another dimenson to this think about the notion of how one merges with the totem or spirit animal and at times actually becomes one with them. On some occasions the totem will merge it's essence with that of thier ward in the mundane. Some difficult lessons have required the essence to merge in order to fully convey the sensation.

When the animal is the totem the person in "Essence" becomes a whole with parts of thier humanity and totem present. Yet no physical identifiers are testable to actually show the inner presence of the totem's spirit. Can't say how long the merger might hold as I've only experienced it for a very short duration.

Sometimes it is difficult to tell where one spirit ends and another begins. Or if that is really the case at all. :uhhuhuh: It is a well stated point though. :bigredgri

Also there is a genetic condition that requires a person to have an infusion of blood in order to have a protein that their own body doesn't produce. This could be considered a physical mainfestation that is testable. (whether they drink it or not is up for debate though. :weirdsmil)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

It gets hairy when/if someone starts claiming to physically shift though. Whatever one feels mentally, spiritually or emotionally though I don't mind, to each their own as long as they're not a danger to others.

Hey that's not true. Ask my wife she swears I grow multiple hands and act like an octopuss at times as she tries to knock them away. Then swears I'm an animal at other times.:bigredgri

Then I revert to my nice human form with only two hands, though they be ethnic in nature, Roman and Russian.:boing:

ok now back to our regular discussion......

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Sometimes it is difficult to tell where one spirit ends and another begins. Or if that is really the case at all. :uhhuhuh:

I agree with that one. As I advance farther and farther upon my pathwalk one thing that is apparent to me is there are no clear boundaries where one can say A stops here and B starts there. I might be more resceptive to A or B at different points but no where can I say one stops and another begins.

It is a well stated point though. :bigredgri

Thank you.

Also there is a genetic condition that requires a person to have an infusion of blood in order to have a protein that their own body doesn't produce.

Granted. I suppose in a testable sense it is like the inability to be in sunlight or the bodies ability or inability to process certain things.

This could be considered a physical mainfestation that is testable. (whether they drink it or not is up for debate though. :weirdsmil)

Testable though I'm not sure scientifically it would still be enough to sway those in doubt. But in the long run, I suppose it really does not matter if one is content with themselves.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Testable though I'm not sure scientifically it would still be enough to sway those in doubt. But in the long run, I suppose it really does not matter if one is content with themselves.

Too true:thumbsup:

[Shaedema]

Testable though I'm not sure scientifically it would still be enough to sway those in doubt. But in the long run, I suppose it really does not matter if one is content with themselves.

Very true. :thumbsup:

Though I wouldn't want to exactly change anything in those that doubt. (It is always good to have a Balance in discussions.)

Which brings up another question that has been floating around my head- can a person be both a Shape Shifter and Otherkin? Or would it be...too difficult for the Animals to coincide?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

..
Which brings up another question that has been floating around my head- can a person be both a Shape Shifter and Otherkin? Or would it be...too difficult for the Animals to coincide?


My gut tells me it would be doable. I think the main problem would be the natural relationship between the two essences in question.

Sort of if one shape shifted into a killer whale yet their otherkin half was seal, I could see a real conflict between natural preditor and prey type scenario.

But inversley it might be the best thing to fully know that facet of their selves as well as know the opposite side of that nature.

[Shaedema]

My gut tells me it would be doable. I think the main problem would be the natural relationship between the two essences in question.

Sort of if one shape shifted into a killer whale yet their otherkin half was seal, I could see a real conflict between natural preditor and prey type scenario.

But inversley it might be the best thing to fully know that facet of their selves as well as know the opposite side of that nature.

:hehehehe: I just had an image of a person salting themselves to make them tasty.

Seriously though....I could see (to use your example) a killer whale and a seal having a conflict, but wouldn't the killer whale spirit (since that's the one being shape shifted into) know about the conflict first? In which case wouldn't there be....I don't know a different Animal spirit that would work just as well to teach that person what they needed to learn?

One that wouldn't create that conflict?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

:hehehehe: I just had an image of a person salting themselves to make them tasty.

Would that be with or without ketchup?:smile:

Seriously though....I could see (to use your example) a killer whale and a seal having a conflict, but wouldn't the killer whale spirit (since that's the one being shape shifted into) know about the conflict first? In which case wouldn't there be....I don't know a different Animal spirit that would work just as well to teach that person what they needed to learn?

Not really sure if using a different spirit would in fact teach the same lesson. I suppose in that instance one would have to rely upon the reason and focus of the lesson and the teacher provind it.

That and it would fall to the one doing the shape shifting to really consider what there inner Animal is and what they would shift into. Which to me would require one to do some if not a great deal of research into the animal they plan to shape shift into.

One that wouldn't create that conflict?

Ah but at times the conflict is the lesson to be experienced and learnt from.

[Shaedema]

Would that be with or without ketchup?:smile:
[COLOR="Red"]With of course! :bigredgri

Not really sure if using a different spirit would in fact teach the same lesson. I suppose in that instance one would have to rely upon the reason and focus of the lesson and the teacher provind it.

That and it would fall to the one doing the shape shifting to really consider what there inner Animal is and what they would shift into. Which to me would require one to do some if not a great deal of research into the animal they plan to shape shift into.

I guess what I'm worried about is Splits. Otherkin already walk in two worlds and some have a hard time with that. There may end up being aspects from both sides that end up being magnified to the point that nothing else remains.

Ah but at times the conflict is the lesson to be experienced and learnt from.

That's true. But I would venture to say that if the person who is supposed to be learning isn't ready for such a conflict/lesson then maybe the animal they are trying to shift into won't let them.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I guess what I'm worried about is Splits. Otherkin already walk in two worlds and some have a hard time with that. There may end up being aspects from both sides that end up being magnified to the point that nothing else remains.



I would say that would be a serious inbalance, perhaps psychotic.

Yet inversly, it could also lead to a fractured soul / spirit type scenario. A part that is unable to accept or understand to such an extent that it seperates from the whole to form a seperate subset.

Of course that is a whole nother topic of discussion in itself.



That's true. But I would venture to say that if the person who is supposed to be learning isn't ready for such a conflict/lesson then maybe the animal they are trying to shift into won't let them.


Possibly. Yet other times a teacher may force the issue so it is faced. Though I admit it may become more of an issue of phases that one comes to know that facet vice just having it shoved into your face with a here it is feeling.

Myself, I have had both scenario's run though not always as a shape shifter but other lessons.

[Tim]

Apples to oranges - gender identity in a human child is a different thing that species confusion.

...top that off with the fact that Gender Identity Disorder is a mental disorder. Sex change operations are used for the purpose of making the person comfortable in their skin; it is not considered a cure or a solution.

[Shaedema]

...top that off with the fact that Gender Identity Disorder is a mental disorder. Sex change operations are used for the purpose of making the person comfortable in their skin; it is not considered a cure or a solution.

Maybe not always. There have been cases where the person is born with both male and female parts which resulted in another choosing the Gender Identity. At times that hasn't been correct and needed to be corrected later in life with surgery. *shrugs* That would make it a physical rather than mental 'disorder'.

[Louisvillian]

Maybe not always. There have been cases where the person is born with both male and female parts which resulted in another choosing the Gender Identity. At times that hasn't been correct and needed to be corrected later in life with surgery. *shrugs* That would make it a physical rather than mental 'disorder'.
Which is an entirely different thing from Gender Identity Disorder.

[Shaedema]

Which is an entirely different thing from Gender Identity Disorder.

Which is what I thought we were discussing here. The difference/sameness of being a Shape Shifter and an Otherkin.

[Twinkle]

No, it isn't -

You were trying to explain what an otherkin is, and you used examples such as "being born into the wrong species" and used the analagy of Gender identity as an example.

All that' s happened is that we've told you that it isn't a good analagy to use -because one is mental disorder, and you are claiming otherkin is not.

[Shaedema]

No, it isn't -

You were trying to explain what an otherkin is, and you used examples such as "being born into the wrong species" and used the analagy of Gender identity as an example.

All that' s happened is that we've told you that it isn't a good analagy to use -because one is mental disorder, and you are claiming otherkin is not.

And none of the questions I ask where answered.

To clarify (again)- I don't disagree that BIOLOGICALLY it is almost impossible to prove that one is part of another species.

Yet there are physical and mental differences that haven't been explained to me that classify everyone as being 'only' human.

If someone has a tail 'left over' and claims to be partly another Animal....is that not proof?

If it isn't explain to me why the evolutionary process that a fetus goes through isn't proof that a human can claim to be part Animal?

[Louisvillian]

If someone has a tail 'left over' and claims to be partly another Animal....is that not proof?
No, it's not.


If it isn't explain to me why the evolutionary process that a foetus goes through isn't proof that a human can claim to be part Animal?
:wtf:

[Shaedema]

No, it's not.
Okay.

Then what would be proof?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to prove to you that Otherkin exisit. What I am asking is-what proof would you accept that someone is partly something else?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

ROTFLMAO...

Your Freudian slip is showing...:bigredgri



the analagy of Gender identity as an example.

[Tim]

Yet there are physical and mental differences that haven't been explained to me that classify everyone as being 'only' human.

If someone has a tail 'left over' and claims to be partly another Animal....is that not proof?
Proof is actual scientific testable evidence. The fact that some humans may exhibit traits uncharacteristic for modern humans does not make them less human. It just means a long suppressed gene has become active. We share 90-something percent of the same genes as chimpanzees, it doesn't make us all chimps.We all evolved out of the same primordial slime so there will be some connectivity with all creatures on the planet, but there are specific characteristics that make humans human, and all other life (plants and animals) what they are.

[Shaedema]

Proof is actual scientific testable evidence. The fact that some humans may exhibit traits uncharacteristic for modern humans does not make them less human. It just means a long suppressed gene has become active. We share 90-something percent of the same genes as chimpanzees, it doesn't make us all chimps.We all evolved out of the same primordial slime so there will be some connectivity with all creatures on the planet, but there are specific characteristics that make humans human, and all other life (plants and animals) what they are.

For the part in bold- no one here has claimed that Animals are 'less' than Human nor has anyone claimed that Humans are less than Animal.

For the rest- define what makes a Human....Human. If it is not just biology (which you will note I've already conceded is NOT provable at this point in time)....then what is it?

Is not the re-emergence of a 'past' gene in a Human a testable fact?

Would it not lead someone to say, "I am different"?

Would it not mean that the person in question has a closer relationship to their Animal side than a 'modern' Human?

[Louisvillian]

For the part in bold- no one here has claimed that Animals are 'less' than Human nor has anyone claimed that Humans are less than Animal.
Nor did he say "less than human".
He said it doesn't make one less human.
I suggest you take a reading comprehension class alongside a basic biology course.


Would it not mean that the person in question has a closer relationship to their Animal side than a 'modern' Human?[
No. It just means they're a bit unhinged.

[Nicholas]

This thread is still up?


GREAT!

I just discovered I'm actually a Zebra trapped in human form...

[Shaedema]

This thread is still up?


GREAT!

I just discovered I'm actually a Zebra trapped in human form...

*amused*


Nor did he say "less than human".
He said it doesn't make one less human.
I suggest you take a reading comprehension class alongside a basic biology course.

If I misquoted him fine. I misspoke and that was my mistake. *shrugs* Doesn't mean you need to question my education or try to be insulting.



No. It just means they're a bit unhinged.

Would that be you stating an opinion as fact?

You nor the others against Otherkin have answered my questions that I thought were asked very nicely and with respect. I'm still asking the same questions.

I will also state again that for the time being it isn't Biologically possible to mate an Animal and a Human.

But we have genetic information stored in our DNA that was from our evolutionary process.

If some of that genetic information becomes active again (either mentally or physically) one could say that they are part Animal.

It is testable.

[Twinkle]

*amused*



If I misquoted him fine. I misspoke and that was my mistake. *shrugs* Doesn't mean you need to question my education or try to be insulting.



Would that be you stating an opinion as fact?

You nor the others against Otherkin have answered my questions that I thought were asked very nicely and with respect. I'm still asking the same questions.

I will also state again that for the time being it isn't Biologically possible to mate an Animal and a Human.

But we have genetic information stored in our DNA that was from our evolutionary process.

If some of that genetic information becomes active again (either mentally or physically) one could say that they are part Animal.

It is testable.


Well, if you misunderstood his post then your reading comprehension skills were off. I agree it could have been said differently.

Genetic information stored in our DNA does not mean that one can claim being "part wolf". We are still human. It is not testable at this time and is unprovable to claim that one has some sort of different species within them. It is possible to hypothesize - but statments such as "I am otherkin", "I'm half-elf", or whatever - will raise eyebrows and questions and challenges. And rightfully so. At this point - it is an absolute false belief.

If one is making a claim without any proof - going off feelings and symptoms based on nothing but one wants to believe, (when scienitific evidence provides a completely different answer) then they *are* delusional.

delusion:

A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False) belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception). In psychiatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatry), the definition is necessarily more precise and implies that the belief is pathological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathology) (the result of an illness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illness) or illness process). As a pathology it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information or certain effects of perception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception) which would more properly be termed an apperception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apperception) or illusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion).

From Wikipedia


In my opinion, the notion that one is actually born into the wrong species, or has another species inside of them would be delusional - and thus have a psychiatric condition - or more crudely stated - "a little unhinged". As I stated earlier - I suspect the "otherkin" belief has more to do with neuropsychiatry than species mutation from the astral level finding it's way into human behavior.

[Shaedema]

Well, if you misunderstood his post then your reading comprehension skills were off. I agree it could have been said differently.
That can happen after 2 hours of sleep.:weirdsmil



Genetic information stored in our DNA does not mean that one can claim being "part wolf". We are still human. It is not testable at this time and is unprovable to claim that one has some sort of different species within them. It is possible to hypothesize - but statments such as "I am otherkin", "I'm half-elf", or whatever - will raise eyebrows and questions and challenges. And rightfully so. At this point - it is an absolute false belief.

If the genetic code is there from the evolutionary process then technically there isn't another species 'inside' that person. The rest is just labeling. If I don't know the names of my evolutionary ancestors (and I don't) then I'll likely take the label of what I feel best describes me and my behaviors.




If one is making a claim without any proof - going off feelings and symptoms based on nothing but one wants to believe, (when scienitific evidence provides a completely different answer) then they *are* delusional.

delusion:

A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False) belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception). In psychiatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatry), the definition is necessarily more precise and implies that the belief is pathological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathology) (the result of an illness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illness) or illness process). As a pathology it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information or certain effects of perception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception) which would more properly be termed an apperception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apperception) or illusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion).

From Wikipedia


In my opinion, the notion that one is actually born into the wrong species, or has another species inside of them would be delusional - and thus have a psychiatric condition - or more crudely stated - "a little unhinged". As I stated earlier - I suspect the "otherkin" belief has more to do with neuropsychiatry than species mutation from the astral level finding it's way into human behavior.

Then what would you accept as proof. Not trying to change your belief just trying to understand what you consider proof. :bigredgri

[Twinkle]

Labels have meaning. If one picks a label that by logic and reasoning doesn't apply - then one can use the label if they so choose - but they have to be able to accept that others would question and find the label dubious, at best.

You can call yourself a chipmunk if that's what you so desire, but it doesn't mean that everyone is going to believe you are a chipmunk. That's OK - you don't need validation from anyone.

Proof is testable evidence that can be re-produced repeatedly in an objective environment. The source can and should be found, and it should be able to reproduced through a variety of test subjects, with the use of placebos to rule out wishful thinking and/or mental illness.

[Twinkle]

ROTFLMAO...

Your Freudian slip is showing...:bigredgri


Sorry I missed this.

All I was saying is if one is going to be using an analogy to illustrate their point, they should use one that actually does that - and doesn't effectively disprove what they are trying to say.

[Shaedema]

Labels have meaning. If one picks a label that by logic and reasoning doesn't apply - then one can use the label if they so choose - but they have to be able to accept that others would question and find the label dubious, at best.

You can call yourself a chipmunk if that's what you so desire, but it doesn't mean that everyone is going to believe you are a chipmunk. That's OK - you don't need validation from anyone.

Proof is testable evidence that can be re-produced repeatedly in an objective environment. The source can and should be found, and it should be able to reproduced through a variety of test subjects, with the use of placebos to rule out wishful thinking and/or mental illness.

Science has been able to identify which genes are involved in disorders. I would think that testing for 'tweaked' genes could be done if there was money in it.

[Twinkle]

Agreed. However; at this time, it's not provable.

Therefore, statements of fact when what we know about human biology, DNA and genetics say otherwise would be delusional.

[Shaedema]

Agreed. However; at this time, it's not provable.

Therefore, statements of fact when what we know about human biology, DNA and genetics say otherwise would be delusional.

Going by that logic I suppose all beliefs in a god/goddess/higher power/controlling entity could be classed the same way.

[Twinkle]

Not really. Statements of belief are different from statements of fact.

As I said earlier, if one says "I believe I am part wolf" - I can't argue that -it's based on a subjective perception.

To say "I am part wolf", would be a statement of fact, and many can and should question that when what we know about human biology says otherwise.

[Shaedema]

Not really. Statements of belief are different from statements of fact.

As I said earlier, if one says "I believe I am part wolf" - I can't argue that -it's based on a subjective perception.

To say "I am part wolf", would be a statement of fact, and many can and should question that when what we know about human biology says otherwise.

From those I've encountered that have belief of one type or another I rarely hear "I believe..." before going into their statements.

Example- Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Disclaimer-Please do not take this as an attack. I am merely using it as an example to show that there are statements that have been used as facts.)

[Louisvillian]

That's because most people, in general (no one here specifically), are idiots and don't know how important phrasing is when making certain statements.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

From a previous post by me...

Did you miss it Twinkle ?

Or ignore it , since it does not fit a rational ,
scientific viewpoint ?

"I can say "I am part wolf" , because I live in the physical ,
mental , emotional , astral and spiritual realms , all at the
same time...not seperate..."

( It is my focus on one , which determines which I am
operating in more , at any time...physical is the default
setting out of all of them...:uhhuhuh: )


As for psychiatry...which you also mentioned , in a post...

I am not the first , nor shall I be the last , to state the following :

Psychiatrists , in general , are in need of help...

They have an obsessive compulsive disorder , which
manifests in a need to diagnose , and label , and then
categorize others...if they cannot fit someone into
one , or more of their categories , it may cause them
great discomfort , and anxiety disorder often manifests...

Of course I am speaking from personal experience , with
more than one...as well , from my research , and conversation
with others , with direct experience with psychiatrists...

So...I , personally , see most of their profession , as delusional...

Not a good reference , as far as I am concerned...:smileroll




To say "I am part wolf", would be a statement of fact, and many can and should question that when what we know about human biology says otherwise.

[Shaedema]

That's because most people, in general (no one here specifically), are idiots and don't know how important phrasing is when making certain statements.

I can agree with you on that for the most part.

But- for the general public it is perfectly acceptable to say "Jesus Christ is Lord" (again this is only an example) and not be considered delusional.

Unless you're saying that you place all people who make such statements in the same category?

[Twinkle]

From a previous post by me...

Did you miss it Twinkle ?

Or ignore it , since it does not fit a rational ,
scientific viewpoint ?

"I can say "I am part wolf" , because I live in the physical ,
mental , emotional , astral and spiritual realms , all at the
same time...not seperate..."

( It is my focus on one , which determines which I am
operating in more , at any time...physical is the default
setting out of all of them...:uhhuhuh: )


As for psychiatry...which you also mentioned , in a post...

I am not the first , nor shall I be the last , to state the following :

Psychiatrists , in general , are in need of help...

They have an obsessive compulsive disorder , which
manifests in a need to diagnose , and label , and then
categorize others...if they cannot fit someone into
one , or more of their categories , it may cause them
great discomfort , and anxiety disorder often manifests...

Of course I am speaking from personal experience , with
more than one...as well , from my research , and conversation
with others , with direct experience with psychiatrists...

So...I , personally , see most of their profession , as delusional...

Not a good reference , as far as I am concerned...:smileroll


You can say whatever you want Shawn - I just don't buy it. But then again, I don't have to. I can certainly respect your view of things, but I don't agree with it and I don't have to accept it. You don't accept mine. That's fine. Live and let live.

[Shaedema]

"I can say "I am part wolf" , because I live in the physical ,
mental , emotional , astral and spiritual realms , all at the
same time...not seperate..."

( It is my focus on one , which determines which I am
operating in more , at any time...physical is the default
setting out of all of them...:uhhuhuh: )
:thumbsup: Very true.
Though there are days I could do without that 'default' setting. :bigredgri




As for psychiatry...which you also mentioned , in a post...

I am not the first , nor shall I be the last , to state the following :

Psychiatrists , in general , are in need of help...

They have an obsessive compulsive disorder , which
manifests in a need to diagnose , and label , and then
categorize others...if they cannot fit someone into
one , or more of their categories , it may cause them
great discomfort , and anxiety disorder often manifests...

Of course I am speaking from personal experience , with
more than one...as well , from my research , and conversation
with others , with direct experience with psychiatrists...

So...I , personally , see most of their profession , as delusional...

Not a good reference , as far as I am concerned...:smileroll

I knew I wasn't the only one who thought they needed some sort of help. One of them tried convincing my friend that she needed to become a guy or at least be strictly gay after only one meeting. :geez:

Needless to say there weren't more meeting with that...uhm...person.

[Twinkle]

Shawn is saying he is part wolf because he wants to. It's that simple. The rest of it is flowery rhetoric without any substance to try and justify his stance. It's not necessary. He uses the label simply because it's one he wants to apply to himself. Let's not beat around the bush here.

Many people have negative views of psychiatry and psychology when they have experienced that most mental health professionals would claim a delusional experience. It's not surprising that those most in need of help would resist it.

I've worked in the mental health field for years, and worked with severely emotionally disturbed children. The level of resistance to questions and challenges of belief and thought that flies in the face of science or rationality is really quite normal.

People can believe whatever they want - but if it effects the functioning of their lives in such a way that it has a negative impact, I see no harm in looking into the mental health profession for relief, or at least consultation.

[WitchJezebel]

Shawn is saying he is part wolf because he wants to. It's that simple. The rest of it is flowery rhetoric without any substance to try and justify his stance. It's not necessary. He uses the label simply because it's one he wants to apply to himself. Let's not beat around the bush here.

Many people have negative views of psychiatry and psychology when they have experienced that most mental health professionals would claim a delusional experience. It's not surprising that those most in need of help would resist it.

I've worked in the mental health field for years, and worked with severely emotionally disturbed children. The level of resistance to questions and challenges of belief and thought that flies in the face of science or rationality is really quite normal.

People can believe whatever they want - but if it effects the functioning of their lives in such a way that it has a negative impact, I see no harm in looking into the mental health profession for relief, or at least consultation.


:thumbsup: I've been following this thread and never needed to post anything because you said everything I was thinking in a much more eloquent way.

But I have to say that you... ROCK!

[Shaedema]

Shawn is saying he is part wolf because he wants to. It's that simple. The rest of it is flowery rhetoric without any substance to try and justify his stance. It's not necessary. He uses the label simply because it's one he wants to apply to himself. Let's not beat around the bush here.

Many people have negative views of psychiatry and psychology when they have experienced that most mental health professionals would claim a delusional experience. It's not surprising that those most in need of help would resist it.

I've worked in the mental health field for years, and worked with severely emotionally disturbed children. The level of resistance to questions and challenges of belief and thought that flies in the face of science or rationality is really quite normal.

People can believe whatever they want - but if it effects the functioning of their lives in such a way that it has a negative impact, I see no harm in looking into the mental health profession for relief, or at least consultation.

I'm sure there are good people in the mental health field, Twinkle. Just as I'm sure that there are bad ones as well. And who is to say that what others have experienced isn't valid.

In any event- would you say that someone who claims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is delusional?

[Twinkle]

Honestly, yes - I would say it's delusional because there is no evidence that a historical Jesus ever lived, and the core of the religion (The Bible) is not a historical text, has never been seen as one , and is largely edited to such an extent that we don't really even have any proof who authored the texts. The Gospel of John is particularly suspect.

Am I going to walk around pointing the finger and telling every Christian their beliefs are delusional? No.

If I was on a Forum Board discussing Christian belief among Christians, then yes - I'd bring it up, and invite discussion to try and get them to flesh out *why* they believe as they do. Perhaps I could understand and change my view.

In regard to this thread and the Otherkin phenomena and basis of belief - I'd have to say that nothing here has changed my stance.

[Shaedema]

Honestly, yes - I would say it's delusional because there is no evidence that a historical Jesus ever lived, and the core of the religion (The Bible) is not a historical text, has never been seen as one , and is largely edited to such an extent that we don't really even have any proof who authored the texts. The Gospel of John is particularly suspect.

Am I going to walk around pointing the finger and telling every Christian their beliefs are delusional? No.

If I was on a Forum Board discussing Christian belief among Christians, then yes - I'd bring it up, and invite discussion to try and get them to flesh out *why* they believe as they do. Perhaps I could understand and change my view.

In regard to this thread and the Otherkin phenomena and basis of belief - I'd have to say that nothing here has changed my stance.

Just so long as your consistent in how you label people, I'm perfectly happy with that.

There is the Chance that science may at some point show that Otherkin exist, just as there is a Chance that it may show that a historical Jesus did live.

Until then we will just have to agree to disagree. Since it isn't your responsiblity to change the way I see the world and it isn't mine to change yours. :)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I would dare you to walk up to Native Americans ,
Aboriginal Australians , or any old cultural people...

And tell them their medicine visions , or spiritual
experiences , manifesting in the physical world , are
delusion...

I know a few , who would tell you to go air out your
lodge , because the stink was intolerable...word for word...:smileroll

And you are wrong , as far as evidence...

Yet , trying to convince people , is not something I need to do...

And , as you are not here long term to observe me , you can
not make your statements on anything but your slanted views ,
and experience...let us not beat around the bush here...:thumbsup:

I notice you do not say belief in Greek deities , is delusional...:uhhuhuh:

But of course...you would not do that , would you ?

And , as psychiatrists are in need of help...

Most in that field , would be the *very* last to admit it...:bigredgri

Just sayin'...



Shawn is saying he is part wolf because he wants to. It's that simple. The rest of it is flowery rhetoric without any substance to try and justify his stance. It's not necessary. He uses the label simply because it's one he wants to apply to himself. Let's not beat around the bush here.

Many people have negative views of psychiatry and psychology when they have experienced that most mental health professionals would claim a delusional experience. It's not surprising that those most in need of help would resist it.

I've worked in the mental health field for years, and worked with severely emotionally disturbed children. The level of resistance to questions and challenges of belief and thought that flies in the face of science or rationality is really quite normal.

People can believe whatever they want - but if it effects the functioning of their lives in such a way that it has a negative impact, I see no harm in looking into the mental health profession for relief, or at least consultation.

[Twinkle]

Shawn -

We're in Advanced Paganism speaking to each other, giving each other our perspectives.

I never claimed to be any more correct than you are - I just was providing my perspective and backing it up with reason and rationality.

You are backing up your perspective with something else.

You don't want to prove anything, but yet you want me to be wrong.

Why?

This doesn't have to be ugly. There is nothing personal in any of this unless you want to read yourself into anything I said here.

And frankly, that's not my problem.

ETA: My issue has never been about spiritual experiences. My issue has, and continues to be how anyone can claim they are "part" of another species without any scientific validation to back it up.

I've said that many times, now - it seems that you want to argue something that I'm not arguing.

[Shaedema]

There is always a few I run across (and I lived with one for many years) that no matter what you show them and no matter what questions you ask them- they will never concede that something is possible, even though there is nothing that says it isn't either.
:bigredgri


I would dare you to walk up to Native Americans ,
Aboriginal Australians , or any old cultural people...

And tell them their medicine visions , or spiritual
experiences , manifesting in the physical world , are
delusion...

I know a few , who would tell you to go air out your
lodge , because the stink was intolerable...word for word...:smileroll

And you are wrong , as far as evidence...

Yet , trying to convince people , is not something I need to do...

And , as you are not here long term to observe me , you can
not make your statements on anything but your slanted views ,
and experience...let us not beat around the bush here...:thumbsup:

I notice you do not say belief in Greek deities , is delusional...:uhhuhuh:

But of course...you would not do that , would you ?

And , as psychiatrists are in need of help...

Most in that field , would be the *very* last to admit it...:bigredgri

Just sayin'...

[Shaedema]

You supported the statement that Otherkin are delusional, which tends to get people upset (especially if they consider themselves to be a part of that label). I'm not questioning your belief that Otherkin are delusional (I don't think they are :) ).

What I am trying to point out is that IT IS possible that with our genetic code there could be tweaks that lead to one saying they are Otherkin. And that would be True enough. There just isn't a test that anyone could agree on right now to prove it.


Shawn -

We're in Advanced Paganism speaking to each other, giving each other our perspectives.

I never claimed to be any more correct than you are - I just was providing my perspective and backing it up with reason and rationality.

You are backing up your perspective with something else.

You don't want to prove anything, but yet you want me to be wrong.

Why?

This doesn't have to be ugly. There is nothing personal in any of this unless you want to read yourself into anything I said here.

And frankly, that's not my problem.

ETA: My issue has never been about spiritual experiences. My issue has, and continues to be how anyone can claim they are "part" of another species without any scientific validation to back it up.

I've said that many times, now - it seems that you want to argue something that I'm not arguing.

[skilly-nilly]

Someone who says 'Jesus is Lord' is making a statement about their external perception; they are not saying that they are part Jesus, nor that Jesus is an ancestor of theirs. In general, I have found that Xians will freely revert to 'because I believe' when they are questioned as to proof.

Someone who says 'I am a Elf' is making a statement about their internal perception, they are identifying who they are. So comparing Xians and Otherkin as to degree of delusion is a poor comparison.

Otherkin rarely cite belief as supporting their personal perception, they instead point to interbreeding, previous lives, astral worlds, overwhelming fugue state/ trance experiences as 'proof' and, in general, strongly reject belief as supporting their perceptions.

As a biologist, I find the statement that a fetus develops through a series of other animal states distressingly inexact. All chordates have similarities of structure that, in the unformed state, resemble each other. That doesn't mean that a fetus is briefly a fish, no matter what your high-school biology text implied.

[Twinkle]

You already know my views on that - so any further discussion would just lead us down a road that comes down the final conclusion - we agree to disagree.

It was a pleasure speaking with you, though - and I'm glad we got the chance to talk.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I do not want it to be ugly , either...

So stop saying those who say what I am saying ,
are delusional...

And , if you do not want me to say , those who
believe in Greek deities , being the epitomy of
the gods , or even existing , are delusional , then
do not say those who make Christian claims are
delusional...

( which I did not say , nor am I saying )


And , I firmly believe what I say about psychiatrists ,
as a group think , after careful observation , and
extensive testing over the years...

Accept that we might not be delusional...

I am not "making" you wrong...you want to be able to
state certain people are delusional , without all evidence
being in...

That is a stance based on falsehoods...

But...that is not *my* problem...


Shawn -

We're in Advanced Paganism speaking to each other, giving each other our perspectives.

I never claimed to be any more correct than you are - I just was providing my perspective and backing it up with reason and rationality.

You are backing up your perspective with something else.

You don't want to prove anything, but yet you want me to be wrong.

Why?

This doesn't have to be ugly. There is nothing personal in any of this unless you want to read yourself into anything I said here.

And frankly, that's not my problem.

[Twinkle]

I do not want it to be ugly , either...

So stop saying those who say what I am saying ,
are delusional...

And , if you do not want me to say , those who
believe in Greek deities , being the epitomy of
the gods , or even existing , are delusional , then
do not say those who make Christian claims are
delusional...

( which I did not say , nor am I saying )


And , I firmly believe what I say about psychiatrists ,
as a group think , after careful observation , and
extensive testing over the years...

Accept that we might not be delusional...

I am not "making" you wrong...you want to be able to
state certain people are delusional , without all evidence
being in...

That is a stance based on falsehoods...

But...that is not *my* problem...


Shawn -

We're in Advanced Paganism speaking to each other, giving each other our perspectives.

I never claimed to be any more correct than you are - I just was providing my perspective and backing it up with reason and rationality.

You are backing up your perspective with something else.

You don't want to prove anything, but yet you want me to be wrong.

Why?

This doesn't have to be ugly. There is nothing personal in any of this unless you want to read yourself into anything I said here.

And frankly, that's not my problem.


You've given no evidence, Shawn - only you're rather discombobulated and vague experiences as "proof". It is not proof of anything other than what you want to believe.

I've stated before that anyone can believe what they want.

I can and still have the opinion that these beliefs are based on delusion.

That is not saying that you are bat-crazy.

I'm saying that your belief is based on a false perception.

I cannot accept that it "is possible", because science tells us that we cannot mix animal DNA in a human body. It simply doesn't work.

ETA: Don't tell me what I need to accept, either, Shawn. I don't have to accept anything.

[Shaedema]

I believe I said that the fetus exhibits the characteristics of the evolutionary process that made the Human form. And that sometimes those characteristics remain after birth. But your point is taken. :uhhuhuh:



Someone who says 'Jesus is Lord' is making a statement about their external perception; they are not saying that they are part Jesus, nor that Jesus is an ancestor of theirs. In general, I have found that Xians will freely revert to 'because I believe' when they are questioned as to proof.

Someone who says 'I am a Elf' is making a statement about their internal perception, they are identifying who they are. So comparing Xians and Otherkin as to degree of delusion is a poor comparison.

Otherkin rarely cite belief as supporting their personal perception, they instead point to interbreeding, previous lives, astral worlds, overwhelming fugue state/ trance experiences as 'proof' and, in general, strongly reject belief as supporting their perceptions.

As a biologist, I find the statement that a fetus develops through a series of other animal states distressingly inexact. All chordates have similarities of structure that, in the unformed state, resemble each other. That doesn't mean that a fetus is briefly a fish, no matter what your high-school biology text implied.

[Shaedema]

You already know my views on that - so any further discussion would just lead us down a road that comes down the final conclusion - we agree to disagree.

It was a pleasure speaking with you, though - and I'm glad we got the chance to talk.

As am I. :smile: You've definitely given me somethings to consider when talking with people.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Do remember , Twinkle...never once , have I mentioned DNA ,
as a substantiating factor...

I do understand Shaedema's point , and did post a link , which
refered to atavism...

We can also agree to disagree...

I just wanted , as you did , to point out your beliefs , as to
truth in this matter , would not hold up in other cultural
context , given their long interaction with animal spirits ,
and beliefs surrounding them...

We all feel others are delusional...

I definitely hold my opinions on that...:uhhuhuh:

[sparrowspirit]

holy cow this thread has come a long way.

interesting discussion everyone.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Just another idea to ponder but if one who claims Otherkin status uses in part the biological ancestry of a human as a probable or possible source of their identity, then were does one gain the notion of Elf, Demon, etc?

That and given we all come off the same parental ancestors or set thereof, it seems illogical to me that there could be so many "Variants" that one may claim kinship to.

Under shape shifting I actively choose which form I shall try to experience. Some I maybe better at, other's well let's say even a failure is a positive in that I learnt something from it.

That is not to say that I don't believe one may try so frequently to shift into something that it's perceived persona may not color their mental perceptions.

Yet on one note I am at a loss for words actually. If one uses magic as an example of taking a thing in the astral and constructing it. Then infusing it with sufficient focus, purpose and energy to make it manifest in the mundane. Not only manifest but also actually have sufficient force and coession to sustain itself as the spell fulfills its function.

Then is it not on some level possible for one to create an otherkin self in all appearances upon the astral and have it manifest itself within the host upon the mundane? In all functions, to create a servitor or golem type essence that is aware of its self sufficiently to give the impression of a second nature or life force contained within the host?

Yet other than one's belief in a magical process and expectations of such that no known measurable value is apparent, except to the host who may experience a sensation of something else being within them? An otherkin persona.

[Shaedema]

Just another idea to ponder but if one who claims Otherkin status uses in part the biological ancestry of a human as a probable or possible source of their identity, then were does one gain the notion of Elf, Demon, etc?

I think this particular question has one or two other questions that should be asked first.

1. Did Dragons/Elves/Etc truly exist? (For my part yes, I think they did but no longer do in this existence. But that gets into another topic. :) )

2. If they did exist is it possible that an Elf or other humanoid creature had an offspring with a Human? (Personally I don't really see that there would be a major problem with this, but I'm sure someone will point out if there is one. :bigredgri)



That and given we all come off the same parental ancestors or set thereof, it seems illogical to me that there could be so many "Variants" that one may claim kinship to.

I supposed it would depend on which variant is active versus the inactive in the individual. That's my theory at any rate.


Under shape shifting I actively choose which form I shall try to experience. Some I maybe better at, other's well let's say even a failure is a positive in that I learnt something from it.

That is not to say that I don't believe one may try so frequently to shift into something that it's perceived persona may not color their mental perceptions.

Yet on one note I am at a loss for words actually. If one uses magic as an example of taking a thing in the astral and constructing it. Then infusing it with sufficient focus, purpose and energy to make it manifest in the mundane. Not only manifest but also actually have sufficient force and coession to sustain itself as the spell fulfills its function.

Then is it not on some level possible for one to create an otherkin self in all appearances upon the astral and have it manifest itself within the host upon the mundane?

Yes it is possible. I haven't met anyone (as of yet) that has done this, but I'm reasonably sure someone has though.

[Louisvillian]

Do remember , Twinkle...never once , have I mentioned DNA ,
as a substantiating factor...
And that is where you screwed up.


1. Did Dragons/Elves/Etc truly exist?
What is this, D&D?
There is no evidence to speak for the existence of such mythical creatures. All we have is hearsay and rumour, and sometimes not even that. And don't even think of playing the Cryptozoology card; there's a reason it's considered a pseudoscience.


2. If they did exist is it possible that an Elf or other humanoid creature had an offspring with a Human? See above. And even if such mythical creatures exist, why would they be able to breed with humans? This isn't fantasyland. Genetics actually come into play when breeding across species lines.

[Shaedema]

What is this, D&D?
There is no evidence to speak for the existence of such mythical creatures. All we have is hearsay and rumour, and sometimes not even that.

No this isn't D&D.
Which is why I asked the question. And thanks for answering.:bigredgri If you don't believe that Dragons/etc exist then the rest of the discussion can only go in one direction. Which results in me saying we will have to agree to disagree.



See above. And even if such mythical creatures exist, why would they be able to breed with humans? This isn't fantasyland. Genetics actually come into play when breeding across species lines.

Why wouldn't they be able to? If the genes were compatible it would be possible

[MonSno_LeeDra]

[/size]

I think this particular question has one or two other questions that should be asked first.

1. Did Dragons/Elves/Etc truly exist? (For my part yes, I think they did but no longer do in this existence. But that gets into another topic. :) )

Difficult to answer. Sort of like the notion of the cyclops. I read a report that speculated the discovery of mammoth or mastdon skulls (sorry don't rememer which) on a med island gave rise to the stories. The island was very volcanic and the area referenced was re-discovered years later after a fire had stripped away the vegitation. It seem's the skulls gave the apperance of a large centeral eye location where the tusks would have been located and the fact of being associated with volcanoes. Hense part of the rise of the stories of the cyclops.

One thng is apparent, to early man they existed. So whether they were the actual creatures or simply a persona type thing something was there to inspire thier imagination and acceptance of their existance.

My personal belief is that dragons as spirits did infact exist though I really can not say for sure they were of this deminson.

2. If they did exist is it possible that an Elf or other humanoid creature had an offspring with a Human? (Personally I don't really see that there would be a major problem with this, but I'm sure someone will point out if there is one. :bigredgri)

I think that one might have offspring between a human and what another may have though of as a non-human. Yet I really can't say that they existed or if it was more so a desception issue. The idea of one group deceiving another through smoke and mirrors type exploitation does not seem unthinkable to me.

[/size]

I supposed it would depend on which variant is active versus the inactive in the individual. That's my theory at any rate.

Possible but I still think it would be a limited number of potential types. Yet to me it seem's more than a few are always part of some superhuman creature or entity.



I suppose that is one of the things that gives me pause in my beliefs of it. It's sort of like the number of re-incarnations of really famous people, the more the merrier it seems at times. I suppose there are many that claim to be re-incarnates of john or jane doe but they just don't make the news or medical journals.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Never "screwed up"...

That is a falsehood , as what I base my position on ,
is an astral - physical interface...

The same as tribal peoples from many cultures...


And that is where you screwed up.

[Shaedema]

One group will often deceive another for a gain of some type (though in this case I don't know what that would be) MonSno_LeeDra.

Or...the use of the term Elf/Demon/etc could have been a label applied to those who were "normal". (I think I'm headed for my "Labels are Useless" speech. :bigredgri I'll save that for another time/place though.:crown:)

Either option is possible IMO.


Possible but I still think it would be a limited number of potential types. Yet to me it seem's more than a few are always part of some superhuman creature or entity.
I suppose that is one of the things that gives me pause in my beliefs of it. It's sort of like the number of re-incarnations of really famous people, the more the merrier it seems at times. I suppose there are many that claim to be re-incarnates of john or jane doe but they just don't make the news or medical journals.


I won't disagree that there seem to be more and more individuals who claim Kinship with the superhuman/entity. But it is kind of like the two year old throwing a tantrum. It wants the attention.

Those that speak the loudest- shouldn't be trusted.:weirdsmil

It is always healthy to ask and make up one's own mind instead of relying on another- who may or may not be shouting from the rooftop that they can fly. :bigredgri

[cydira]

I know that there's going to be a measure of hue and cry over what I'm about to say. I want to preface my statement by saying that I have read the entire thread and considered the merits of each argument as they were presented. I also want to state that I am not engaging in any form of path-bashing, personal attack, or something equally pointless in this discussion (or any other discussion, really).

Now, first thing is first - how does one define shape shifting? Some would argue that shape shifting is impossible because the definition they are working from is a person literally transforming bodily into an animal (like the old werewolf stories). As of today's medical and biological research, there is no evidence that supports such a change and only a few different medical conditions that can give a vague superficial suggestion of such an appearance.

Others would argue that shape shifting is less a physical change but rather more of a mental change, where in the person who is shifting into another being suspends their 'normal' consciousness and strongly identifies and builds an identity based around what they are shifting into. This psychological construct would be based around the knowledge that they have regarding that which they are shape shifting into and assumptions that are made with respect to said being's psychological make up. This form of shape shifting would be evident by changes in behavior ranging from changes to how one moves about to changes in speech patterning and intonation.

I, personally, ascribe to the latter definition of shape-shifting. When looking at the many different historical accounts and discussions of shape-shifting within and without of the cultures where it is accepted, it becomes clear that the person in question retains their human physical traits and the change described in less of a physiological one and more of a psychological. Now, it is possible that one could argue this is a form of delusion and even a form of a pathological psychological disturbance.

Twinkle made an excellent point, the time to be concerned is when this bit of mental gymnastics begins to pose a threat to one's health and well being by interfering with their ability to function within society or to attend to their needs. It is possible that the mental gymnastics used to accomplish shape-shifting can prove highly beneficial to one's ability to operate within their environment, be it social or physical. As such, we can not completely discredit this skill. And I do call it a skill, because it is the same skill that allows us to empathize with other people and consider their perspective in a given situation.

Now, on the matter of other-kin, I have to say I've yet to meet a person who is exceptionally vocal about their other-kin identity and is not engaged in some form escapism or similar psychological slight of hand. I've noticed that when their stance as to being other-kin is subjected to even mild scrutiny, they become highly defensive and often reply with some form of ad hominem attack. (Usually declaring the person who is challenging their position as some form of a bigot.)

I have met people who identify themselves as other-kin who are not as... flamboyant in their expression or as vocal about it. These people seem no different from any other person you meet in society. I have to say that these people are among some of the most 'down to Earth' folks I've ever met and they tend to face head on the challenges that life throws them.

The other-kin aspect of their personality is generally well integrated into the rest and tends to be a valuable and interesting resource that they draw upon in approaching the world. Their response to questioning of their position is less one of offense and attack, but more of attempting to demonstrate to another person how their perspective of the world works by way of examples.

Now, the very vocal other-kin who are out there, in my opinion, are demonstrating some measure of unhealthy delusional behavior. The argument that a lack of control is the pathway by which one becomes aware of their animal nature or their other-kin nature is a dangerous one that encourages such unhealthy behavior as refusing to wear a coat despite sub-zero temperatures outside because one believes themselves to be strongly tied to a bear aspect or an ice creature.

Even animals, which some have mistakenly argued exhibit no measure of self-control, do not operate upon a lack of consideration of the situation. The lack of self-control that is promoted by some in the argument earlier, quite frankly, could be described as the effects of something like rabies in an animal, for example. This results in the animal (let's say a raccoon, for example), whose self control and self-preservation instincts strongly encourage against this, coming into contact with humans. This is something that a healthy raccoon will shun because humans smell unfamiliar and are significantly larger then they are, which makes them potential predators.

A person who will set aside their self-control to act on 'pure instinct' is engaged in nothing other then pure escapism and attempting to pass responsibility for their actions while in said state to the 'other' state that they are in mentally, in my experience. This would be the man who claimed to be demonically possessed when he burned his house down and killed his family within. This would be the person who resorted to violence in a situation of high tension because they were in their 'animal' aspect, when violence was not the appropriate response to the situation.

I generally view the people who bandy about their 'status' as other-kin with great suspicion and give them wide berth. Such vocal and active declarations that they are other-kin usually accompanies a state of mental instability that makes them a threat to themselves and others. There are people who are exceptions to the rule, but they seem to be few and far between, or at least that has been my experience.

The psychological mechanisms involved in the second definition of shape-shifting and the other-kin identity are the same. The other-kin identity/aspect requires a great deal more ... effort because of the amount of 'filling in the blank' that is necessary.

[Garm]

"Otherkin"

The very name sounds like something out of an RPG

The ancestors of our species were evolving along much the same path as wolves, the path of a cooperative pack hunting animal and would have been destined to fill the same ecological niche .

But somewhere along the line we experienced a hypertrophy of intelligence which forced us down an another evolutionary detour entirely , one that looks like a dead end.

IOW we were hijacked by our own brains

The nature of what we were becoming before we turned still hangs over us and the tension this produces is plain to see and for those sensitive enough to do so, even feel

Otherkin is just a way of romanticizing a rather ugly design flaw

[Shawn Blackwolf]

We must also take into account , shamanic ,
and medicine people's techniques of atavism ,
which do include , in certain cultures , methods
of becoming animal like , which include growling ,
or walking on all fours...

Some of us do very well , in "regular" society ,
when we choose to interact with it...

( Though , as I do consider most of modern society
insane , I limit that interaction to as little as possible )

As a wolfclan person , I watch over my "pack" , and
am gentle , nurturing , and a teacher , to those around
me...

My senses are highly acute , on many levels...

However , if any threaten me , or mine...

Yes , primal behaviour , from the subconscious , comes
forth...and I have no problem with that...

Makes more sense to me , and many who know me ,
than those who believe in soldiers , wars , corporations ,
politics , and mass media...

Now *that* is crazy...IMO...

I easily come back into non - attack mode , once danger
is past...which is more than I can say for most in the
world around me...

There is overall , far more competition , and ravenous
beast mentality , in what most would call their everyday
existence , than I have ever felt...

More psychotic animals , polluting their air , water , and
land they live on...than any "wild" animals , in nature...

Those are the ones I avoid...

The aggressive behaviour , on roads...far more dangerous ,
than an animal , or human otherkin / shapeshifter , in a
temporary attack mode...

"Pure instinct" , is far more acceptable to me , than the cold ,
calculated ways , many humans find acceptable to hurt , demean ,
and tear each other apart...far more honest , generally...:smileroll

I view most humans , who deny their "pure instinct" , and
their atavistic tendencies , and bury them under a very thin
veneer of "civilized behaviour" , with great suspicion...

The more "civilized" they "appear" , the less I trust them...

And , I have been proven right on this , again and again ,
over 54 years of my life...so , I trust this perception...

Hell...I can smell people not to be trusted ...:bigredgri

Now...as I also utilize the animal spirits , for journeywork...

Or , as in a case of someone stealing from me , appeared
as a jaguar , in their dreams , and scared the shit out of
them , resulting in my property being returned...

I do find the use of atavistic based magic , quite effective...

I find the subconscious , to be a most interesting realm...

A good howl , in this world , and others...does wonders
for the psyche...:thumbsup:

[David19]

For the part in bold- no one here has claimed that Animals are 'less' than Human nor has anyone claimed that Humans are less than Animal.

For the rest- define what makes a Human....Human. If it is not just biology (which you will note I've already conceded is NOT provable at this point in time)....then what is it?

Is not the re-emergence of a 'past' gene in a Human a testable fact?

Would it not lead someone to say, "I am different"?

Would it not mean that the person in question has a closer relationship to their Animal side than a 'modern' Human?

I'd say if you have any provable genetic differences that would seperate you from every other human on the planet, then, that would be proof. For example, if you gave blood, would that blood be accepted in another human body?, if not, then, maybe, that's evidence that you are genetically different to other humans.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with the Otherkin, in the sense that people have had past lives as other beings (whether it be animals, or more mythological beings, like vampires, demons, whatever, etc), like, I think I may have said before, in Buddhism (maybe Hinduism too, but, I'm not too sure), you can be reborn as a wide variety of beings, from human to animal to Hell being, demon, Hungry Ghost, etc, and, if you accept reincarnation, and accept that there is some validity to Buddhist ideas, then, it's likely some people might have past lives as those beings, maybe this is their first "trip" as a human.

I think, for physical differences, there'd have to be significant genetic differences between you and the majority of other humans on this planet.

[David19]

Labels have meaning. If one picks a label that by logic and reasoning doesn't apply - then one can use the label if they so choose - but they have to be able to accept that others would question and find the label dubious, at best.

You can call yourself a chipmunk if that's what you so desire, but it doesn't mean that everyone is going to believe you are a chipmunk. That's OK - you don't need validation from anyone.

Proof is testable evidence that can be re-produced repeatedly in an objective environment. The source can and should be found, and it should be able to reproduced through a variety of test subjects, with the use of placebos to rule out wishful thinking and/or mental illness.

I'm not sure why anyone would to be a Chipmunk, I'd much rather have a Chip N Dale (http://media.photobucket.com/image/male%20strippers%20-%20chip%20n%20dales/21natters/FUNNYM11.jpg) :boing:.

[Burning Angel]

I'd say if you have any provable genetic differences that would seperate you from every other human on the planet, then, that would be proof. For example, if you gave blood, would that blood be accepted in another human body?, if not, then, maybe, that's evidence that you are genetically different to other humans.

Personally, I don't really have a problem with the Otherkin, in the sense that people have had past lives as other beings (whether it be animals, or more mythological beings, like vampires, demons, whatever, etc), like, I think I may have said before, in Buddhism (maybe Hinduism too, but, I'm not too sure), you can be reborn as a wide variety of beings, from human to animal to Hell being, demon, Hungry Ghost, etc, and, if you accept reincarnation, and accept that there is some validity to Buddhist ideas, then, it's likely some people might have past lives as those beings, maybe this is their first "trip" as a human.

I think, for physical differences, there'd have to be significant genetic differences between you and the majority of other humans on this planet.

Damn...now that David's here I feel like I can get involved :) Wonder why I wasn't talking before...XD

But yeah...I'm all for the non-physical otherkin, whatever explanation you want for it. Maybe you're just attached in some mystical way to the mythical concept (the collective unconscious, perhaps?) of dragons, elves, or fairies...maybe you're the reincarnation of a bear or a shark. That I can buy...but not the idea of having actual wings or fur or something :weirdsmil

Also, on the original topic...sorta...I think this all has a lot to do with the concept of totem animals and the other related stuff...maybe the spiritual version of otherkin is just a super-totem animal. Like Shawn said, the early native cultures often believed that they were descended from animals...it's kinda insulting to their intelligence to suggest that people said they were descended from hares just because they were super-fast runners.

IMO, anyway. I'm a noob...I could be wrong :bigredgri

~Jon :boing:

[David19]

I'm sure there are good people in the mental health field, Twinkle. Just as I'm sure that there are bad ones as well. And who is to say that what others have experienced isn't valid.

In any event- would you say that someone who claims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is delusional?


Honestly, yes - I would say it's delusional because there is no evidence that a historical Jesus ever lived, and the core of the religion (The Bible) is not a historical text, has never been seen as one , and is largely edited to such an extent that we don't really even have any proof who authored the texts. The Gospel of John is particularly suspect.

Am I going to walk around pointing the finger and telling every Christian their beliefs are delusional? No.

If I was on a Forum Board discussing Christian belief among Christians, then yes - I'd bring it up, and invite discussion to try and get them to flesh out *why* they believe as they do. Perhaps I could understand and change my view.

In regard to this thread and the Otherkin phenomena and basis of belief - I'd have to say that nothing here has changed my stance.


Just so long as your consistent in how you label people, I'm perfectly happy with that.

There is the Chance that science may at some point show that Otherkin exist, just as there is a Chance that it may show that a historical Jesus did live.

Until then we will just have to agree to disagree. Since it isn't your responsiblity to change the way I see the world and it isn't mine to change yours. :)

I don't really think you can compare the 2, someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God is simply saying what they believe, just as someone who says they believe The Buddha's Way is the best way, just as someone who believes in The God and Goddess, or The Olympians, or that Ragnarok will come, they are all stating what they're subjective beliefs, based on their own experiences and other reasons.

If someone says they have physical proof that they are physically non-human, then, there should be objective evidence for that.

Christians are no more delusional than Hindus or Wiccans.

[David19]

Someone who says 'Jesus is Lord' is making a statement about their external perception; they are not saying that they are part Jesus, nor that Jesus is an ancestor of theirs. In general, I have found that Xians will freely revert to 'because I believe' when they are questioned as to proof.

Someone who says 'I am a Elf' is making a statement about their internal perception, they are identifying who they are. So comparing Xians and Otherkin as to degree of delusion is a poor comparison.

Otherkin rarely cite belief as supporting their personal perception, they instead point to interbreeding, previous lives, astral worlds, overwhelming fugue state/ trance experiences as 'proof' and, in general, strongly reject belief as supporting their perceptions.

As a biologist, I find the statement that a fetus develops through a series of other animal states distressingly inexact. All chordates have similarities of structure that, in the unformed state, resemble each other. That doesn't mean that a fetus is briefly a fish, no matter what your high-school biology text implied.

QFT :thumbsup:.

[David19]

Damn...now that David's here I feel like I can get involved :) Wonder why I wasn't talking before...XD

But yeah...I'm all for the non-physical otherkin, whatever explanation you want for it. Maybe you're just attached in some mystical way to the mythical concept (the collective unconscious, perhaps?) of dragons, elves, or fairies...maybe you're the reincarnation of a bear or a shark. That I can buy...but not the idea of having actual wings or fur or something :weirdsmil

Also, on the original topic...sorta...I think this all has a lot to do with the concept of totem animals and the other related stuff...maybe the spiritual version of otherkin is just a super-totem animal. Like Shawn said, the early native cultures often believed that they were descended from animals...it's kinda insulting to their intelligence to suggest that people said they were descended from hares just because they were super-fast runners.

IMO, anyway. I'm a noob...I could be wrong :bigredgri

~Jon :boing:

Thanks, like I said, I can buy that some people may have past lives as other beings, but, that's 'cause I find Tibetan Buddhism a very interesting and cool path that I want to explore a lot more, but, I'm a bit more sceptical about physical differences, that said, I don't really care either way.

[Burning Angel]

Thanks, like I said, I can buy that some people may have past lives as other beings, but, that's 'cause I find Tibetan Buddhism a very interesting and cool path that I want to explore a lot more, but, I'm a bit more sceptical about physical differences, that said, I don't really care either way.

Yeah - they're not hurting anybody so why should we give a crap? :thumbsup:

Nobody ever thought of that yet :P

~Jon :boing:

[Shaedema]

Christians are no more delusional than Hindus or Wiccans.


That's true. :thumbsup:

I brought up the point that no one requires Christians (or others of faith) to put "I believe" in front of "Jesus Christ is the Son of God"(or their own core belief), so why would someone require Otherkin to say "I believe" first?

I don't think I said it very well earlier, though I think Twinkle answered the question I was meaning to ask. :bigredgri

If you are being consistent in how you label those who believe the unprovable (yes that even includes self) that is all anyone can ask.

And I really can't complain about being under a label. :crown:

[Shaedema]

Yeah - they're not hurting anybody so why should we give a crap? :thumbsup:

Nobody ever thought of that yet :P

~Jon :boing:

Same reason people enjoy telling others how to live their lives. :bigredgri

[sparrowspirit]

Same reason people enjoy telling others how to live their lives. :bigredgri


its quite annoying when people do that.. sometimes.:uhhuhuh:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

See the last sentence , from paragraph two ,
for this belief from my ancestral culture...

http://www.essortment.com/all/werewolf_ryps.htm


Like Shawn said, the early native cultures often believed that they were descended from animals...

[Shaedema]

its quite annoying when people do that.. sometimes.:uhhuhuh:

:bigredgri Only if you listen to them.

[David19]

Yeah - they're not hurting anybody so why should we give a crap? :thumbsup:

Nobody ever thought of that yet :P

~Jon :boing:

Personally, I don't see why it matters, it's just, there are so many more important things going on right now, in this world, that, IMO, it doesn't matter whether you believe yourself to be non-human or not, what God or Gods you worship, or none at all, whether you believe and practice magic or not, etc, none of that matters. What matters is going out into the world and helping people, what matters is going out and making part of the world shine better, even if it's just for a moment, discussions about whether the Christians "stole" this or that, or whether Jesus may or may not have existed, or whether the Exodus happened, or whatever, are not important, IMO (and, for the record, most Jews do not see the Exodus as simply an historical event, it doesn't matter whether or not there were 5000, 500, 5, or none at all Jews in Egypt), all that does is promote more religious intolerance, less understanding in this world, which is what this world does not need, we need more inter-faith dialogue amongst all religions (including Pagan ones, I believe, Kemetic Orthodox have begun this). Anyway, that's probably going to OT for this thread, so, I'm sorry for getting off track.


That's true. :thumbsup:

I brought up the point that no one requires Christians (or others of faith) to put "I believe" in front of "Jesus Christ is the Son of God"(or their own core belief), so why would someone require Otherkin to say "I believe" first?

I don't think I said it very well earlier, though I think Twinkle answered the question I was meaning to ask. :bigredgri

If you are being consistent in how you label those who believe the unprovable (yes that even includes self) that is all anyone can ask.

And I really can't complain about being under a label. :crown:



Personally, I don't have a problem with you believing that at all, I might add, though, that if you do make claims of having physical differences to humans, people will want to see objective evidence of that.

[Burning Angel]

See the last sentence , from paragraph two ,
for this belief from my ancestral culture...

http://www.essortment.com/all/werewolf_ryps.htm

Oh cool! Is that the tribe you're descended from?


Personally, I don't see why it matters, it's just, there are so many more important things going on right now, in this world, that, IMO, it doesn't matter whether you believe yourself to be non-human or not, what God or Gods you worship, or none at all, whether you believe and practice magic or not, etc, none of that matters. What matters is going out into the world and helping people, what matters is going out and making part of the world shine better, even if it's just for a moment, discussions about whether the Christians "stole" this or that, or whether Jesus may or may not have existed, or whether the Exodus happened, or whatever, are not important, IMO (and, for the record, most Jews do not see the Exodus as simply an historical event, it doesn't matter whether or not there were 5000, 500, 5, or none at all Jews in Egypt), all that does is promote more religious intolerance, less understanding in this world, which is what this world does not need, we need more inter-faith dialogue amongst all religions (including Pagan ones, I believe, Kemetic Orthodox have begun this). Anyway, that's probably going to OT for this thread, so, I'm sorry for getting off track.

OT is cool with me...that makes a lot of sense. Just believe...don't go making a bigger deal of other people's beliefs :)

~Jon :boing:

[Twinkle]

Since when does "interfaith dialogue" mean that we should all "just believe?"

[David19]

OT is cool with me...that makes a lot of sense. Just believe...don't go making a bigger deal of other people's beliefs :)

~Jon :boing:

I think people should respect other peoples beliefs, I've been reading a lot of things by the Dalai Lama recently (and I recommend others do the same, he's a great and truly comassionate man), and I really enjoy his perspective on different religions, that they all offer valid paths, that all true religions are based on similar principles - compassion, which they are, IMO. He engages with Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, even Pagans (I think, Carroll Poke Runyon (http://www.templeofastarte.com/magister.htm) has trained with him). To me, I think Pagans can learn a lot from the His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, especially in their treatment of Christianity and Christians (and, to some extent, Jews and Muslims), yes, the Church may have ordered Crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts, etc (neither of which were actively targetting Pagans, but, the Crusades targetted Muslims, and Jews, the Witch Hunts targetted Catholics, Protestants, and Jews, and gay people, and the Inquisition targetted Jews), but, complaining about it, or suddenly being hostile to the religion, or blaming it for the world's problems does nothing to move the world forward. All it does is begit more hatred, and continue the cycle.


Since when does "interfaith dialogue" mean that we should all "just believe?"

I think interfaith dialogue means learning about other religions, respecting them, and even admiring certain aspects of them, even if you don't wish to practice it (for example, the Dalai Lama is, obvously, a Tibetan Buddhist, but, he does seem to admire quite a few things about other religion, and expressed a desire to learn more about the Jewish Kabbalah, if you want to read more about that, you could read 'The Jew in the Lotus: A Poet's Re-Discovery of Jewish Identity in Buddhist India' by Rodger Kamenetz (http://www.amazon.com/Jew-Lotus-Re-Discovery-Identity-Buddhist/dp/0060645741), and, also, admired the strength of the Jewish people, despite persecution, and wished to to apply those same principles to his peoples survival). It's easy to focus on the negative aspects of a religion or people, but, it, IMO, doesn't accomplish anything, it just feels you with negativity (I don't mean to keep dropping Buddhist ideas into this thread, but, another thing in Tibetan Buddhism is that you become what you think, like if you constantly think you're, for example a sociopath, you will become that, eventually).

BTW, I hope you don't think the you applies to you, personally, Twinkle, I'm referring to the Pagan community (and other communities) in general.

[Twinkle]

Well, I can certainly accept that others believe and practice differently than I do, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe it as truth for myself.

To say "just believe" sounds awfully Christian, to be honest - and I don't have to just believe anything.

I'd rather think for myself and make my own judgements as to what I will or will not believe.

I believe the Pagan community at large equates tolerance with acceptance. They are not interchangeable terms.

Having a dialogue with someone doesn't mean shaking our heads in agreement all the time. I don't believe we can truly know each other and celebrate our diversity without questioning, fleshing out a point that doesn't make sense, or even challenging something.

Why this gets people's panties all twisted is beyond me. If everyone was secure in their faith we wouldn't have these issues with people being called intolerant or bigoted.

We can live amongst each other peacefully -but we certainly don't need to be in agreement with each other.

[Shaedema]

Personally, I don't have a problem with you believing that at all, I might add, though, that if you do make claims of having physical differences to humans, people will want to see objective evidence of that.

Yep they probably would. Yet as things stand now any differences that aren't readily available for normal vision are not provable to another's satisfaction.:sniffsnif




Well, I can certainly accept that others believe and practice differently than I do, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe it as truth for myself.

To say "just believe" sounds awfully Christian, to be honest - and I don't have to just believe anything.

I'd rather think for myself and make my own judgements as to what I will or will not believe.

I believe the Pagan community at large equates tolerance with acceptance. They are not interchangeable terms.

Having a dialogue with someone doesn't mean shaking our heads in agreement all the time. I don't believe we can truly know each other and celebrate our diversity without questioning, fleshing out a point that doesn't make sense, or even challenging something.

Why this gets people's panties all twisted is beyond me. If everyone was secure in their faith we wouldn't have these issues with people being called intolerant or bigoted.

We can live amongst each other peacefully -but we certainly don't need to be in agreement with each other.

:thumbsup: I agree totally.

As far as I know, this discussion has been held with respect (and some heat :hahugh:) in regards to everyone's thoughts. I don't mind in the least if someone wants to label me delusional (sorry couldn't help but slip that in :bigredgri:bigredgri), that is their label that has little or no effect on me. :uhhuhuh: Unless I let it.

There should be questions and if the answer don't make sense to those asking they/we should have a discussion where all view points are present. And yes, I even mean the negative ones. Can't have a Balanced discussion without someone being the bad guy. :crown:

[Burning Angel]

Well, I can certainly accept that others believe and practice differently than I do, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe it as truth for myself.

To say "just believe" sounds awfully Christian, to be honest - and I don't have to just believe anything.

I'd rather think for myself and make my own judgements as to what I will or will not believe.

I believe the Pagan community at large equates tolerance with acceptance. They are not interchangeable terms.

Having a dialogue with someone doesn't mean shaking our heads in agreement all the time. I don't believe we can truly know each other and celebrate our diversity without questioning, fleshing out a point that doesn't make sense, or even challenging something.

Why this gets people's panties all twisted is beyond me. If everyone was secure in their faith we wouldn't have these issues with people being called intolerant or bigoted.

We can live amongst each other peacefully -but we certainly don't need to be in agreement with each other.

That's what I meant - perhaps not phrased the best way, but I meant "Just believe what you believe - if someone else believes something then don't eat them alive over it. It's their belief and yours looks equally silly to someone out there."

I hope that explains it a bit better :)

~Jon :boing:

[Twinkle]

*shrugs*

When I want to know something I'll keep asking the questions until it makes sense. I realize this may seem aggressive and "eating someone alive", but sometimes being demanding in having others flesh out their beliefs helps both them and me. If people don't want to engage, they certainly don't have to.


I also wanted to mention that "delusion" isn't really a bad word - even though the kneejerk reaction is to believe that someone is calling you (the general you) crazy.

Lots of us are delusional. We base our thoughts and perceptions on a faulty premise, sometimes even think "magical thoughts" that are not based on any sort of reason or rationality.

But - it's what we believe to be true. This in itself isn't a bad thing as long as we're not hurting ourselves in the long run.

Introspection and evaluating what we believe and why we believe it is a good thing - and if we can field questions and flesh it out thoroughly when someone from a different paradigm and perspective comes in and asks - it's amazing what kind of understanding and even empathy we can achieve with each other....even a new found respect.

I personally have found that some part of the "otherkin" perspective I can understand and even empathize with. Other parts I find to be pure delusion and signs of some sort of emotional disturbance.

Yet shapeshifting and spirit walking are absolutely fascinating, and it's amazing what the mind in a trancelike state can achieve. And through "flying with the hawk" - even if that is only the human translation of what it would be like to fly with the hawk - would be an enlightening, mystical and truly invaluable experience.

[Shaedema]

I also wanted to mention that "delusion" isn't really a bad word - even though the kneejerk reaction is to believe that someone is calling you (the general you) crazy.

Lots of us are delusional.


Darn.....I was hoping for at least one 'bad' out of this. :toofless: No such luck I guess.:bigredgri

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hmmm...

Perhaps...yet one person's view of a "faulty premise" ,
is not another's...

Nor do some of us worship at the altars of reason and
rationality...

However , as we all are different...and I rejoice in that...

I can accept the , to me , delusional idea of worshipping
deities , if someone can accept for me , what may appear
as a delusional idea of shapeshifting / otherkin...

However , I will always feel people who believe in wars ,
support them , and fight them , to be crazier than a person
who is attacked , going into a primal defense , and ripping
out the throat of their attacker , if necessary , with their
teeth...

Makes more sense...( that is my reason , and rational , if
I choose to phrase it that way...)

And yes...the artz of shapeshifting , offer much , to those
who are skinwalkers , of one form , or another...

[Twinkle]

I'm not into wars. I am into understanding what people believe and why - and I'm not afraid to look a contradiction in the face and ask someone to explain it to me.

I'm not superior to anyone else, nor is my belief system workable for someone else. However, my beliefs are most true to me - just as someone else's is most true to them.

I think perhaps if we worked with each other and tried to communicate instead of defensive posturing it might be easier to celebrate our diversity, instead of gearing up for a war of whose religion is the best.

It's never been about that, at least for me it's not.

Having said that - I do believe that some religions are utterly ridiculous - but I respect the fact that others might think the same of mine.

It doesn't matter - because we all walk the path we are supposed to walk, one way or the other.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

This :



It doesn't matter - because we all walk the path we are supposed to walk, one way or the other.

[Twinkle]

See? I'm not so bad. *winks*

Now that my intent is more clear, hopefully people won't be so...wary of me.

I don't bite. Much.

[Shaedema]

See? I'm not so bad. *winks*

Now that my intent is more clear, hopefully people won't be so...wary of me.

I don't bite. Much.

The 'nips' can be a bit disconcerting :smile: but overall....:thumbsup:




And yes...the artz of shapeshifting , offer much , to those
who are skinwalkers , of one form , or another...



:thumbsup:

[*oonagh*]

See? I'm not so bad. *winks*

Now that my intent is more clear, hopefully people won't be so...wary of me.

I don't bite. Much.

for my part, you have my complete respect. in my (not so humble) opinion, you are an extremely bright woman who is always looking, through maybe rather intense probing, to learn and grow. it may not be everyone's way, but there is *nothing* wrong with it.

[David19]

Well, I can certainly accept that others believe and practice differently than I do, but it doesn't mean that I have to believe it as truth for myself.

To say "just believe" sounds awfully Christian, to be honest - and I don't have to just believe anything.

I'd rather think for myself and make my own judgements as to what I will or will not believe.

I believe the Pagan community at large equates tolerance with acceptance. They are not interchangeable terms.

Having a dialogue with someone doesn't mean shaking our heads in agreement all the time. I don't believe we can truly know each other and celebrate our diversity without questioning, fleshing out a point that doesn't make sense, or even challenging something.

Why this gets people's panties all twisted is beyond me. If everyone was secure in their faith we wouldn't have these issues with people being called intolerant or bigoted.

We can live amongst each other peacefully -but we certainly don't need to be in agreement with each other.

I think that's what's needed also, like Jeffrey Burton Russell, a Christian, said in one of his books (I can't remember which one, it may have been his book on the history of Witchcraft), beliefs must be critically challenged, in order for them to make sense to you, so that you are not just following them blindly (or something like that anyway).

I definitely agree that tolerance and acceptance aren't the same, but, in some ways I prefer acceptance for some things, for example, I'm gay, I don't really like it when people say they "tolerate" me, and others like me, it just means they still don't like what we are, they still hate us, but, they'll tolerate us, like you tolerate a cold or hayfever. I believe that one day it would be good if people could just accept that people are different, that not everyone is hetrosexual, and it's ok, not just mere tolerance.



That's what I meant - perhaps not phrased the best way, but I meant "Just believe what you believe - if someone else believes something then don't eat them alive over it. It's their belief and yours looks equally silly to someone out there."

I hope that explains it a bit better :)

~Jon :boing:

That's a good statement :thumbsup:.


*shrugs*

When I want to know something I'll keep asking the questions until it makes sense. I realize this may seem aggressive and "eating someone alive", but sometimes being demanding in having others flesh out their beliefs helps both them and me. If people don't want to engage, they certainly don't have to.


I also wanted to mention that "delusion" isn't really a bad word - even though the kneejerk reaction is to believe that someone is calling you (the general you) crazy.

Lots of us are delusional. We base our thoughts and perceptions on a faulty premise, sometimes even think "magical thoughts" that are not based on any sort of reason or rationality.

But - it's what we believe to be true. This in itself isn't a bad thing as long as we're not hurting ourselves in the long run.

Introspection and evaluating what we believe and why we believe it is a good thing - and if we can field questions and flesh it out thoroughly when someone from a different paradigm and perspective comes in and asks - it's amazing what kind of understanding and even empathy we can achieve with each other....even a new found respect.

I personally have found that some part of the "otherkin" perspective I can understand and even empathize with. Other parts I find to be pure delusion and signs of some sort of emotional disturbance.

Yet shapeshifting and spirit walking are absolutely fascinating, and it's amazing what the mind in a trancelike state can achieve. And through "flying with the hawk" - even if that is only the human translation of what it would be like to fly with the hawk - would be an enlightening, mystical and truly invaluable experience.

It's really good to ask questions, that's how you continue to learn, that's what I do (as you're probably aware from reading some of my posts). I agree with you about the Otherkin thing too, some parts I can really like and even understand, other parts are, IMO, a bit too wierd, for example, there seem to be quite a few who seem to go on and on about how they have a special destiny or how they're meant to "bring the Apocalypse", or whatever, now, I'm not going to say they don't have some kind of destiny, but, I think some of them just want to sound important or special for things missing in their real (offline) lives.


It doesn't matter - because we all walk the path we are supposed to walk, one way or the other.

That's an great and beautiful statement, and very true too :thumbsup: :).

[BearDancing]

when I have shapeshifted I see through the eyes of the bird/animal ect....
when I am astral travelling I am with a bird/animal ect...that is how I tell the difference for me
I have never to my knowledge shifted into any *otherkin* if that means say fairies,dragons etc
Oh yes once I was with fairies in a different realm and felt what they felt.................it was very hard to come back from ......it took a lot for me to leave this place as it was what I would call perfection....incredible...and I was awake not asleep