Sarkozy stirs French burka debate

[TygerTyger]

Since this was the first time in almost one and a half centuries that a French president had been allowed to address parliament, President Nicolas Sarkozy's speech was already on course to ruffle a few feathers.

The Greens and Communists refused to attend and the Socialists left early, claiming the venue for the address - the Chateau of Versailles, which was home to King Louis XIV - smacked of monarchy and a thirst for power.

But it was the French leader's attack on the burka that really caused a stir.

He expressed his strong distaste for the head-to-toe Islamic veil, calling it not a sign of religion but a sign of subservience.
"It will not be welcome on French soil," he said." We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity."


From here: France and the Burka (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8113778.stm)

Such a debate would be unthinkable in PC-ridden Britain!

[memnoch]

I love Sarkozy

[evergreen]

I read an article on this yesterday and have been patiently waiting for someone to post a thread on it.

You know, I can see both sides of this debate. In one way, he's telling these women that a part of their culture is inappropriate and they're religious views will not be tolerated. But then, I'm not a fan of the burka, either. Sarkozy made points that I really agree with. I mean, the head scarves aren't a problem, you can see their faces and they're still individuals.

Plus, (though I don't think this is that likely to happen), someone could hide a weapon underneath those veils.

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't see anything wrong with what Sarkozy said.

[Vampiel]

I don't see anything wrong with what Sarkozy said.

Apparently the socialists did, perhaps they thought he was incapable of original thought (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=216623) and struggling to use his brain cells?

[AWash85]

I have mixed feelings on this.

On one hand I agree that it is absolutely a tool for the purposes he described, but I don't think it should be actively forbidden so much as enjoying life without it should be actively encouraged.

This does tie in too deeply into a religious matter but you know what... kudos to him. I hope that the message encourages a lot of his target women to reach for independance.

[Cappy]

I believe in seperation from religion and state. If a muslim woman wants to wear the burka, let her wear the burka. I don't believe he gets a say in this. If, however, she doesn't get to choose weather or not she wears it, that's the problem.

[Caitlin.ann]

If, however, she doesn't get to choose weather or not she wears it, that's the problem.

And by 'banning the burka' he's trying to help women who are forcibly subservient to men. I hate to say it but if banning it helps those few who are forced into submission reach for freedom then I'm all for it.

[aluokaloo]

on one hand, to try and ban it will only piss these people off, on the other hand i don't like what the burqua stands for. let them wear it if they want it, because they are grown women and no one should force them to do it.

[Caitlin.ann]

on one hand, to try and ban it will only piss these people off, on the other hand i don't like what the burqua stands for. let them wear it if they want it, because they are grown women and no one should force them to do it.

Its a stick situation. On one hand you're effectively trying to liberate women who may be forcibly subservient, but on the other hand you also don't want to take away their rights. I don't think there is a win/win here at all.

[evergreen]

Its a stick situation. On one hand you're effectively trying to liberate women who may be forcibly subservient, but on the other hand you also don't want to take away their rights. I don't think there is a win/win here at all.

That's what I was thinking, too.

I've never seen a woman here wearing one of these. Has anyone else seen it worn in the US?

[AWash85]

That's what I was thinking, too.

I've never seen a woman here wearing one of these. Has anyone else seen it worn in the US?

All the time, everyday. Like, completely head to toe nothing but eyes showing and barely.

Well, most of them are a little better than that. If I ever ask them why they wear it they always say "If I don't my husband will kick me out".

[TygerTyger]

From what I remember the last time this subject was raised in Britain it was explained that items of clothing like the burka are actually cultural and not religious. Islam does not decree the wearing of such clothing, it only suggests an appropriate degree of modesty, much along the lines of Christianity and Judaism.

In this respect opposing the burka is not the same as opposing Islam (although many will represent it that way) but rather foreign cultural norms that are seen as outdated and incompatible in the host country.

I ahve personally always been of the belief that if you go to live another country then you should respect their way of life first and look to integrate as far as you can.

[Saints pet]

Islam does not decree the wearing of such clothing, it only suggests an appropriate degree of modesty, much along the lines of Christianity and Judaism.


Sure. Islam itself doesn't, but the extremists do.

[TygerTyger]

Sure. Islam itself doesn't, but the extremists do.

Which is one good reason to oppose the imposition of the burka and clothing items like it!

(Good grief, I'm agreeing with a French politician - I'll have to go lie down in a dark room!)

[_Banbha_]

That's what I was thinking, too.

I've never seen a woman here wearing one of these. Has anyone else seen it worn in the US?

I've never seen the blue burka with the screen over the eyes but it's not unusual in my area to see women in hijabs and jilbabs. I've a friend who wears one or the other always, even at the gym during a furious spinning class along with baggy pants and a tunic that falls below her butt. I'd pass out; she says it helps in keeping weight off.

I live on the beach and in summer months women in long black abayas come with their families but generally avoid the sand, sitting in groups on grassy areas in the hot sun. The husbands and boys swim and lay in the sun in the same long baggy shorts that lots of men wear and nothing on top. Double standard.

Glossary of Islamic clothing (http://islam.about.com/od/dress/tp/clothing-glossary.htm)

[Kraheera]

On one hand, I truly disagree with him telling people what they can and cant' wear.

What he should be saying is that men cannot force their women to wear it if the woman doesn't want to. If the marriage won't survive the woman wearing less than a burqa, then the marriage isn't worthy keeping around anyways.

Put protections in place for these women, don't force change on them.

[Caitlin.ann]

That's what I was thinking, too.

I've never seen a woman here wearing one of these. Has anyone else seen it worn in the US?

Yes at the Home Depot I work at there is a family who goes in there..the man looks like everyone else and so does the child but the two women always wear burkas. I don't like it.

[Cappy]

And by 'banning the burka' he's trying to help women who are forcibly subservient to men. I hate to say it but if banning it helps those few who are forced into submission reach for freedom then I'm all for it.

I find that to be a very slippery slope. Every religion/community has their own extremists. After the burka's gone, what's to say he won't do something else? What's next, the cross for Christians, star of David for Jews? Understandably, he doesn't want women who have no choise to do something that they don't want to, but as you've said
if banning it helps those few who are forced into submission What about the majority who aren't forced? For them, this is an important part of their religion, should we punish everyone because of a few?

[Caitlin.ann]

And as I also said:


Its a sticky situation.

[TygerTyger]

For them, this is an important part of their religion, should we punish everyone because of a few?

No it is not! As posted above clothing is cultural NOT religious. Islam does not require women to wear anything like the burka, muslim men do!

[Fireyone]

No it is not! As posted above clothing is cultural NOT religious. Islam does not require women to wear anything like the burka, muslim men do!

Well said!

Let's just look at this in a legal point of view: The law of equality between sexes should cancel any religious law from any country, however tolerant a society is. Since some people in the name of religion ignore that fundamental right, I applaud any politician who has the courage to take on that very slippery slope, and believe me in France any opposition to islam is a courageous move.

[Caitlin.ann]

The burka is a security risk too.

[Fireyone]

The burka is a security risk too.

Yeah it may work in the desert but I'd hate to be wearing one of these in an escalator.:hairred:

[Loukhos]

An article of clothing is really the least of an oppressed Muslim woman's problems. However it still manages to make the news quite frequently? Why? Because it is shocking! It makes good news and makes politicians look good because it attracts attention. The burka is so alien to Westerners that it ruffles our feathers when we see a woman covered from head to toe. Banning the burka is in essence banning part of a culture, and that is crossing a dangerous line and it isn't addressing the root of the problem.

[Kraheera]

An article of clothing is really the least of an oppressed Muslim woman's problems. However it still manages to make the news quite frequently? Why? Because it is shocking! It makes good news and makes politicians look good because it attracts attention. The burka is so alien to Westerners that it ruffles our feathers when we see a woman covered from head to toe. Banning the burka is in essence banning part of a culture, and that is crossing a dangerous line and it isn't addressing the root of the problem.


THIS. QFT. Banning the burka does NOTHING but cause antagonism between West and East, AGAIN. I don't tell Hindus they can't wear their turbans. I don't tell their women that they can't wear those awesome tunic/pant style clothes they wear, or put those little red dots on their heads.

Is a Burka a possible security hazard? Yes. As are hoodies, baggy pants, skinny people in bigger clothes, women in short skirts, etc.

It's called a wand for a reason. Run it across and down the sides, you'll know if there are any metal bits there. And most people that carry bombs and whatnot don't look calm... they look panicky, or nuts.

This is a purely antagonistic move, and Sarkozy is being a jerk about it.

[Caitlin.ann]

Let me clarify what I said. I stated a 'security risk' because one can not see their face and positively identify who is under the burka and many would be offended I believe if asked to show that they are the person on their passport or license, etc. I believe there was a debate about this not too long ago if I'm not correct.

How is a miniskirt a security risk unless someone is going to reem 'her' in the arse?

[Hellebore]

Removing identity from women and forcing them to live as faceless slaves in public is a severely repressive infringement on human rights. I sometimes think people may be confusing the Burqa with the Hijab or Chador,that do not completely mask the face, when considering the Burqa a petty squabble.

[banondraig]

An article of clothing is really the least of an oppressed Muslim woman's problems. However it still manages to make the news quite frequently? Why? Because it is shocking! It makes good news and makes politicians look good because it attracts attention. The burka is so alien to Westerners that it ruffles our feathers when we see a woman covered from head to toe. Banning the burka is in essence banning part of a culture, and that is crossing a dangerous line and it isn't addressing the root of the problem.

:uhhuhuh:

[Kraheera]

Let me clarify what I said. I stated a 'security risk' because one can not see their face and positively identify who is under the burka and many would be offended I believe if asked to show that they are the person on their passport or license, etc. I believe there was a debate about this not too long ago if I'm not correct.

How is a miniskirt a security risk unless someone is going to reem 'her' in the arse?


Because believe it or not, a woman CAN slip a knife up there, or any other small weapon. Not to mention drugs and such. It's called "Balloon".

Quite popular among smugglers.

As for the driver's license deal... there is an easy compromise there. Make it illegal to have the full headdress on in photo identification, and make the law clear that when someone is checking to see if that really is "you", you must remove the burqa.

But banning an article of clothing that many women CHOOSE to wear (even when unmarried and not forced, I've seen it personally) will cause only a major cultural clash. What is the point of doing that?

[Caitlin.ann]

Because believe it or not, a woman CAN slip a knife up there, or any other small weapon. Not to mention drugs and such. It's called "Balloon".

Quite popular among smugglers.

As for the driver's license deal... there is an easy compromise there. Make it illegal to have the full headdress on in photo identification, and make the law clear that when someone is checking to see if that really is "you", you must remove the burqa.

But banning an article of clothing that many women CHOOSE to wear (even when unmarried and not forced, I've seen it personally) will cause only a major cultural clash. What is the point of doing that?

And a woman couldn't just rip off her pants instead? A chick pulling a knife out her ass is not going to be exactly unnoticeable.

[Philosophia]

No it is not! As posted above clothing is cultural NOT religious. Islam does not require women to wear anything like the burka, muslim men do!

That's an over generalization. Not all Muslim men require it and some women choose to wear them for themselves.

[TygerTyger]

That's an over generalization. Not all Muslim men require it and some women choose to wear them for themselves.

I disagree. The topic is about those women who do wear the burka, not those that don't. Of those women that do the principal reason appears to be that it is insisted upon by their husbands. There may be some women who choose to wear the burka themselves but that raises the question in my mind as to how much prior conditioning has to play in the decision making, having grown up in a family where the older women wore the burka because of the men's insitance for example.

The burka may have had practical reasons behind its' development, such as protection from the sun, but it has now been subverted into something else, which might explain why it is worn in climates for which it was not originally designed?

[Philosophia]

I disagree. The topic is about those women who do wear the burka, not those that don't.

I know, which was the intention of my post.


Of those women that do the principal reason appears to be that it is insisted upon by their husbands.

How so? The women I know who do wear burka's believe that they do so because it allows them to be closer to Muhammad. None of their husbands force them to wear it.


There may be some women who choose to wear the burka themselves but that raises the question in my mind as to how much prior conditioning has to play in the decision making, having grown up in a family where the older women wore the burka because of the men's insitance for example.

What about the women who don't have the background that you are describing?


The burka may have had practical reasons behind its' development, such as protection from the sun, but it has now been subverted into something else, which might explain why it is worn in climates for which it was not originally designed?

We shouldn't assume that the only reason women may wear a burka is because they are forced or conditioned to by men. To do so would be to alienate those that don't.