Favor/Disfavor

[Twinkle]

Do you believe that if something crappy happens in your life, it is somehow because you have displeased the Gods?

Do the Gods really care what you do or don't do, or is the emphasis on the Self, and the consequences of our actions?

[AingealOreiad]

I think crappy things just happen as part of life--good and bad, black and white, etc etc. I tend to think that They are too 'big' to be concerned about each and every human each and every moment.

However, I do think the Theoi can have influence should They choose. A good example is back in 2004 when the DNC was in Boston. My partner at the time worked in a hospital nearby, and I was fearful for her safety and the safety of Boston itself (damn this post-9/11 world). I prayed to Herakles for protection, offering a hymn when it was all over. Well, I'm lazy, and it took about a month before life began to spiral into a torrent of anger and fighting with everyone around me. It wasn't long before I realized it was His way of reminding me to fulfill my promises. Life sorted itself out pretty fast after the hymn was written. Yes, this anecdote is slightly off-topic because it involves dealing directly with a God, but it's an example that They CAN influence our lives if They so choose.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I think it can be both. IMO, crappy things happen sometimes because they just happen. For example, you may get stuck in traffic, have the stomach flu when it's going around, stub a toe, etc... These are just day-to-day inconviences. However, when things start to go really wrong, and they are unusual, or tied to a promise or prayer that I may had made, then I start to suspect that it may be a favor/disfavor issue.

For example, maybe I offered something to the gods in exchange for their assistance with a difficult situation, but then didn't fulfill my promise. If everything was going great with the situation, and then suddenly fell into crap, I would wonder if it wasn't a favor issue.

[Twinkle]

I'm really on the fence with this one. I tend to place all of the responsibility on myself.

While I do believe that the Gods are aware and can intercede on our behalf (reciprocity),

I'm not quite sure that they place us in disfavor. We do that all on our own by our actions. If we act lower than what we are or have the potential to be - we lose the light of the Gods.

I guess I need to think about it some more.

[Cunae]

Sometimes bad things happen because of circumstance. Sometimes because God wants me to learn something or wants to strengthen my faith. Even if circumstantial, I think I am part of the equation for someone else's benefit.

[Twinkle]

There could be something to that - perhaps a certain Deity wants to make sure that we're learning something.

Although I suspect a lot of that is us creating our own problems until we figure out what it is we're doing wrong.

[AingealOreiad]

While I do believe that the Gods are aware and can intercede on our behalf (reciprocity),

I'm not quite sure that they place us in disfavor. We do that all on our own by our actions. If we act lower than what we are or have the potential to be - we lose the light of the Gods.
And that was pretty much the point of my first post. The Theoi will step in when we've 'acted lower than what we are'--hence all the turmoil in my like when I procrastinated about my promise to Him. Do I think He personally came down from Olympos to screw with me? No, but His sphere of influence (see Plato's Forms to get a better idea of what I mean) was triggered.

[Twinkle]

And that was pretty much the point of my first post. The Theoi will step in when we've 'acted lower than what we are'--hence all the turmoil in my like when I procrastinated about my promise to Him. Do I think He personally came down from Olympos to screw with me? No, but His sphere of influence (see Plato's Forms to get a better idea of what I mean) was triggered.


I think we're on the same page with this.:toofless:

[Caitlin.ann]

I had never thought of this before and it is interesting. I know this is the Hellenic Recon forum, but I'm wondering how/if favor/disfavor would change with different pantheons. For example there are many stories in Greek and Roman mythology of what happens when one loses favor with the gods and the consequences of such. I wonder how that would change with the Norse or Celtic pantheon. Academically speaking, not bashing at all, in my high school mythology course we learned that the Greek and Roman gods were influenced by the topography of the region which was warm and conducive to a more relaxed life than say Scandinavia (Norse gods). The teacher then went on to state that the Greek and Roman gods were more 'jealous and petty' whereas the Norse (who had a rugged, cold and harsh topography) were much less concerned with disfavour and rarely punished humans.

Not sure if this is making ANY sense and maybe out of respect (if requested) I should take it to the theology forum, but I wanted to ask it here because this is such an interesting question. By the way I'm not saying any pantheon is better than another. I am partial to the Norse but I also worship a few non-Norse (Greek) gods.

So I suppose I'm basically wondering how disfavor/favor changes from pantheon to pantheon and possibly in connection with the topography of the region of said pantheon.

[Toki Wartooth]

To add another question to the discussion: does anyone believe that some individuals are more "favored" than others? For example, if someone is considered more pious, are they seen as "favored" in the eyes of the Gods?

[MeriBast]

Do you believe that if something crappy happens in your life, it is somehow because you have displeased the Gods?

Do the Gods really care what you do or don't do, or is the emphasis on the Self, and the consequences of our actions?


well not that ive come under disfavor with Them. when something bad is happening in my life i see it as Them trying to teach me something that they have been trying to teach me and ive just been to hard headed to get it the first few times. so they resort to more blunt means of teaching me.

I do believe They care what i do in my life. I am dedicated to Them. They have things to teach me so i might better the world around me. They let me know when i am off the path and push me towards it with subtle and not so subtle hints.

[*~Amora~*]

It depends. If you didn't fulfill a promise (of sacrifice etc.) to a particular god and you encounter misfortune in that god's domaign, then there may be a causal connection. But normal, garden variety, misfortune is probably not connected to the divine.

[*~Amora~*]

To add another question to the discussion: does anyone believe that some individuals are more "favored" than others? For example, if someone is considered more pious, are they seen as "favored" in the eyes of the Gods?

Yes. If you give gifts to one more powerful than you, He/She is more likely to listen to your please and look favorably on you.

[Tim]

Do you believe that if something crappy happens in your life, it is somehow because you have displeased the Gods?

Do the Gods really care what you do or don't do, or is the emphasis on the Self, and the consequences of our actions?

There are different levels of understanding for favor/disfavor beginning with the lower orders believing the Gods punish those who displease them to the higher orders of philosophical understanding which states that the Gods are all good, exist beyond such petty emotions or need to punish, and that favor/disfavor is all controlled by our action and inaction... we choose to live within the light of the Gods or we choose not to. All that said, none of this means that good people don't face challenges and obstacles or that bad people may not have seemingly leisure lives of wealth and pleasure. It is about achieving levels of happiness and contentment... what some other traditions call finding your bliss.

[~*Sacred*~]

Yes, I do think the Gods do this but I do not see it as bad, more of out of love they are trying to strengthen us by sticking to our word/doing what we said.

[Chaos Hawk]

I do not think so.

I look at epidemics and global disasters. I can't believe the Gods just didn't like those people. Or that they deserved it.

[~*Sacred*~]

I do not think so.

I look at epidemics and global disasters. I can't believe the Gods just didn't like those people. Or that they deserved it.

Eeek, I would go that far into believing that either, I can't see the Gods doing this. I can't see that happening. I'm speaking of a more personal level - don't do the deed (whatever it is you said you'd do) you have a trial ahead of you to learn/grow and (hopefully) come out on top.

[Erebos]

I don't think that all misfortune comes from disfavor, or that fortune comes from divine favor. Maybe it does some of the time, but I think the gods have a higher agenda than the affairs of mortals. Sometimes things happen because other forces are at work, and we humans take it personally because we are rather narcissistic by nature, or maybe we do have things to learn from difficult situations. There are a lot of factors besides whether the gods are pleased with us or not. People who commit serious hubris and impiety can still be fortunate in life... unfortunately.

[Twinkle]

I don't think that all misfortune comes from disfavor, or that fortune comes from divine favor. Maybe it does some of the time, but I think the gods have a higher agenda than the affairs of mortals. Sometimes things happen because other forces are at work, and we humans take it personally because we are rather narcissistic by nature, or maybe we do have things to learn from difficult situations. There are a lot of factors besides whether the gods are pleased with us or not. People who commit serious hubris and impiety can still be fortunate in life... unfortunately.


I think it certainly seems from our perspective the the hubristic can be fortunate - but that is only based on perspective. What truly makes one fortunate or unfortunate goes beyond what our outside view of someone's life *seems* like.

But that's jmo.

[androgino]

Eeek, I would go that far into believing that either, I can't see the Gods doing this. I can't see that happening. I'm speaking of a more personal level - don't do the deed (whatever it is you said you'd do) you have a trial ahead of you to learn/grow and (hopefully) come out on top.

I think They can do those things if They deem it right.

[Erebos]

What truly makes one fortunate or unfortunate goes beyond what our outside view of someone's life *seems* like.

That's true.