Was Mary really a "Virgin?"

[HerbN'Legend]

Just looking for opinions on the popular story of the Virgin mother of Jesus. . .

What do you believe, in historical or religious context?

1) A virgin gives birth to a child who becomes a great healer and leader, not to mention the son of God and founder of Christ-based religions.

2) A woman (and possibly her husband - if they were married, why didn't they have sex yet anyway?) conceive more than a child, a story to protect her honor, her "value" as it was for women there, and her virtue, especially if, say, she really hadn't had sex with Joseph and was guilty of sex with someone else. Didn't they kill women for stuff like that back then? Who's to say her story just happened to match the prophecies of some money-making "wisemen," who's shorts would have then turned brown to hear that some woman was verifying their tale?

3) Your own, different opinion on this subject.

Please know that I am not attacking or being derogatory towards any aspect of the Christian religions or biblical stories, just looking for some opinions on these wonderful Pagan-ful boards. I don't think I'm even sure where I myself stand, yet another reason why I bring this up.

Merry Yule!

~TobyAnn

[Danustouch]

I remember reading somewhere, that the original translation of Virgin in the Original Latin was not "Intacta" (which would mean biological virginity) But rather another version of the word Virgin (ain't that a tongue twister), which meant a woman without need of a husband.

In which case, either way, it would imply that it was NOT Josephs Child. But, it would refute the argument prominant in some Christian denominations, that Mary stayed a Holy Virgin all her life (considering Jesus had brothers.....I'd say that it's a good bet she didn't).

I don't know where I stand on it. Miracles happen. BUT..so do odd mistakes, with odd results, that people didn't have explanations for in differen't times.

For instance, (and this is not meant to be heretical at all), what if Joseph and Mary had "Fooled around" but hadn't really consummated it? However, during their explorations, some semen managed to get onto her vulva, and then somehow be propelled upward, and inside? I've heard stories of that before, happening to virgins who thought that since she was not actually penetrated, she wouldn't become pregnant. What if Mary was raped? Or even perhaps, raped by her father? Unlikely that he would have owned up to such a thing, and more likely that they would concoct an elaborate story.

However, there are millions of inexplicable things which happen in life. This COULD just be one of them. We will never know.

[Silver_Alhena]

I heard it was based on a translational error. The word in the original Hebrew text apparently meant 'young woman,' but the word they chose was 'virgin.' I do not believe that was accidental, as even nowdays Catholicism discourages sex outside marriage.

Another Translational error which makes nore sense in the Hebrew context: When Genesis states that the world was made in 7 days - 'day' was the nearest word to a word that meant 'day' OR 'period of time.' If we take the order in which the world was created;
In the Beginning The Earth, Darkness, water, Light, the cycle of day and night,
1st day, Sky, (separation of the waters into 'above' and 'below') evening, morning.(which became the start of the 2nd day)
2nd day Ground appearing from the water, 'land' and 'sea', plants, trees, fruit, seed.
3rd day Sun, moon, stars.
4th day Sea creatures, birds.
5th day The rest of the animals.
6th day Humans.
7th day Day of rest

If we then assume that each stage was completed before the next was started, it is a rough chronical of evolution. I have always believed that the creation theory and evolution/the 'Big Bang' theory are not incompatable on this basis.

I believe that large chunks of the bible were never meant to be taken literally, especially in the New Testament where Jesus uses parables on many occasions to make his point.
There are still many passages in the Bible that are beautiful to read, despite the book being over 2000 years old.

[MidnightSun]

I heard once that in old times virgin didn't mean never had sex..it meant not married, which means that Mary wasn't married when she had Jesus.

[Chibi-Fallon]

One thing I’ve never seen discussed was what if Mary wasn’t altogether mentally stable. That could easily fit into the rape idea because rapists seem to be able to pick out people who have already been victimized, or have mental problems.
There was a woman who *firmly* believed she was the long lost Princess Anastasia. They did a DNA test and she wasn’t related but she had heard the story and decided that’s who she was. She had gotten amnesia at one point and when she woke up people told her the story about Anastasia and since she had a few similarities she figured that’s who she was. Maybe Mary was raped suppressed the memories and when she became pregnant figured that since these people were going around looking for some holy child that must be her kid.
It's probably not what happened but the idea has always kinda interested me.

[Aine of the Fae]

The 'mistakes' in the translations of the Bible could keep argument going for centuries. (In fact they have :) ) There's the debate over whether or not Mary was really a Virgin as in never had sex or a virgin as in the original meaning of the world being never married. Then, there is the fact that one of the biggest prophecies regarding the Messiah was NOT fulfilled by Jesus if Joseph wasn't his father. That prophecy is the one that the Messiah would be a descendant of King David. In the book of Matthew, the geneaology is traced from David to Joseph. If Joseph isn't Jesus biological father that Jesus isn't a descendant of David and that prophecy is not fulfilled. If Joseph IS Jesus' father and he does fulfill that prophecy, then the Virgin birth never happened.

[KaimelarFeylove]

I saw this board rigth after comming back form church (my grandmother beong a church person i have to go every sunday) and today we talked about the virgin mary.

Mary and Joseph, being betrothed, were not yet married, but did have a legal binding to each other. when Joesph learned she was with child, he was going to quietly divorce her, which was not common. Being pregent, which would have been cause of sex outside of marriage, was enough to be stoned to death. Acoording to the bible an angel told jospeh not to be afraid to take mary as his wife so he did and they went to bethelhem.. then there is all teh rest..

But one thing the religion does that bothers me is the fact that they can say, yes our vigin truth was real but any others that were recorded are false. there are stories in teh greek mtyhs of a virgin being impregnated by teh sun god apollo and such.. but they are thrown out as fasle,,

[Ryhla]

Originally posted by KaimelarFeylove
I saw this board rigth after comming back form church (my grandmother beong a church person i have to go every sunday) and today we talked about the virgin mary.

Mary and Joseph, being betrothed, were not yet married, but did have a legal binding to each other. when Joesph learned she was with child, he was going to quietly divorce her, which was not common. Being pregent, which would have been cause of sex outside of marriage, was enough to be stoned to death. Acoording to the bible an angel told jospeh not to be afraid to take mary as his wife so he did and they went to bethelhem.. then there is all teh rest..

But one thing the religion does that bothers me is the fact that they can say, yes our vigin truth was real but any others that were recorded are false. there are stories in teh greek mtyhs of a virgin being impregnated by teh sun god apollo and such.. but they are thrown out as fasle,, One thing I've noticed is similarities between ancient myths and stories in the bible. It's possible that the virgin birth of Jesus is another version of the sun god Apollo impregnating virgins.

[Armitage]

I heard one theory (I hope I can find the link to this) is that she was...ah...impregnated by an angel. Or extraterrestrials, but that's going a bit far.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Now if *that* isn't a Fox special I don't know what is. :D

[shnen]

i think Mary is a highly misunderstood character in a story book :)

[KaimelarFeylove]

Originally posted by Armitage
I heard one theory (I hope I can find the link to this) is that she was...ah...impregnated by an angel. Or extraterrestrials, but that's going a bit far.

I think the story was the "angel of the lord" came to tell her and "planted teh lord's seed within her" or something like that

[Valnorran]

Frankly, I never understood what the big deal was. If Jesus was supposed to be one of us, why can't he come into the world through the same means as we? If Mary really is the mother of god, who are we, mere mortals, to pass judgment on her? Why is doing something nature (and presumably God) designed us to do (reproduce. Didn't God tell us to be fruitful and multiply?) such an atrocity? I can only chalk it up to the various neuroses among the church founders. I was never bothered by the idea of Jesus getting together with Mary Magdelen, either. If he really is the sone of god, we are in no position to pass judgment. And considering what he is supposed to have done for us, I would be the last person to begrudge him the ministrations of a good woman. If anybody earned it, he did!

[Mithrea]

Actually, the most recent scholarship supports what KaimelarFeylove said by pointing to the length of time involved in making a legal Jewish marriage at the time. Couples were allowed to have sex after betrothal however because it was the same as being married. They were just waiting for all of the legal and financial stuff to come through that would make them "married." That could take up to a year.

Now, I'm just going to go and dig up the citation on where I read that, if I can remember. :lol:

[Demeter]

Originally posted by Ryhla
One thing I've noticed is similarities between ancient myths and stories in the bible. It's possible that the virgin birth of Jesus is another version of the sun god Apollo impregnating virgins.

Oh, yes, don't you know the devil knew that Christ was to be born of a virgin, so he went and started all those pre-Christian virgin-born myths so as to discredit Christ's birth ahead of time. The Devil also had pagan mystics doing things like walking on water and predicting miraculous catches of fishes and turning water into wine and even raising the dead just so as to discredit Christ when he did the same things ... Believe it or not, that's how the early Church explained the similarities.

[Mythrel]

I have moved this thread to Theology and Philosophy due to the nature of the conversation.

enjoy all :D

[Ryhla]

Originally posted by Demeter
Oh, yes, don't you know the devil knew that Christ was to be born of a virgin, so he went and started all those pre-Christian virgin-born myths so as to discredit Christ's birth ahead of time. The Devil also had pagan mystics doing things like walking on water and predicting miraculous catches of fishes and turning water into wine and even raising the dead just so as to discredit Christ when he did the same things ... Believe it or not, that's how the early Church explained the similarities. Uh huh...I thought so. Look how many christian holidays are around the same time as pagan holidays (like Christmas). It was (from what I understand) was a way that the church brought the pagans in and converted them. So if they can do that with holidays, why not the stories of old?

[Mithrea]

I must have posted this in nearly 100 threads but here it goes again. Christmas is on December 25 because that is the birthday of Mithra. Constantine declared December 25 the official birthday of Jesus in 313 so that the Christians and the worshipers of Mithra would be celebrating on the same day.

[gunner]

"Christmas is on December 25 because that is the birthday of Mithra. Constantine declared December 25 the official birthday of Jesus in 313 so that the Christians and the worshipers of Mithra would be celebrating on the same day."
------------------------

true, but don't be too hard on them, there aren't that many of us around these days, even among pagans mithras isn't that well known.

[Mithrea]

I wasn't being hard on anyone. I was just excusing myself for continually beating the same drum.

[FLipsiDE]

What I've read is that the word used in the 'original' greek translation is 'almah'. Almah means a woman who has not yet had a child and is very different from the word that means 'never had sex'. If this is the case then heck, I was a virgin birth too! (Where's MY world spanning religion, huh?)

But even if Mary never "did it" *chuckle behind your kindergarden hands everyone* then that still isn't anything amazing, mythologywise. There are numerous virgin birth Gods out there and it's possible that a young Christianity was simply trying to keep up with the deitical Jones'.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b1.htm

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya after the Holy Ghost descended upon her.

The Egyptian God Horus was born of the virgin Isis; as an infant, he was visited by three kings.

In Phrygia, Attis was born of the virgin Nama.

A Roman savior Quirrnus was born of a virgin.

In Tibet, Indra was born of a virgin. He ascended into heaven after death.

The Greek deity Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrha, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. He was born "at Bethlehem, in the same sacred cave that Christians later claimed as the birthplace of Jesus." 4

In Persia, the god Mithra was born of a virgin on DEC-25. An alternate myth is that he emerged from a rock.

Also in Persia, Zoroaster was also born of a virgin.

In India, the god Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki.

Virgin births were claimed for many Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors and for Alexander the Great of Greece.

One source is quoted as saying that there were many mythological figures: Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and Horus who share a number of factors. All were believed to have:

been male.
lived in pre-Christian times.
had a god for a father.
human virgin for a mother.
had their birth announced by a heavenly display.
had their birth announced by celestial music.
been born about DEC-25.
had an attempt on their life by a tyrant while they were still an infant
met with a violent death.
rose again from the dead.

Almost all were believed to have:
been visited by "wise men" during infancy.
fasted for 40 days as an adult.

More theory from me and my liberal conspiracy. ;)

I've read a few things that would seem to tie the Egyptian beliefs to the young Christianity. A lot of ties between Horus and Jesus. Then again, Saint Paul was from the center of Mithracism and there are a lot of similarities between Mithras and Jesus, Mithras was just a bit more of a war god I believe. (Gunner? I suspect you would know...)

[Mithrea]

And so would I. In fact it's where my MW ID came from Flip. I have a half written post that I keep trying to get a few minutes to finish about the Cult of Mithra saved on Wordpad at home. Maybe I'll get it finished tonight. ;)

[gunner]

", Mithras was just a bit more of a war god I believe. (Gunner? I suspect you would know...)
---------------
i'm still researching but as i understand it not so much a "war god" in the same sense as mars/aries but more a soldier's god as the roman legions saw and worshipped him. and there are many correlations between the stories of mithras and christ as well as other religions christianity supplanted. i've wondered how history would have gone if one of the roman emporers had not proclaimed it the official religion of the empire. (can't remember his name offhand, was it diocletian?) mithrea, i'd be most interested in seeing that when you get it done.

[Ryhla]

Originally posted by FLipsiDE
What I've read is that the word used in the 'original' greek translation is 'almah'. Almah means a woman who has not yet had a child and is very different from the word that means 'never had sex'. If this is the case then heck, I was a virgin birth too! (Where's MY world spanning religion, huh?)

But even if Mary never "did it" *chuckle behind your kindergarden hands everyone* then that still isn't anything amazing, mythologywise. There are numerous virgin birth Gods out there and it's possible that a young Christianity was simply trying to keep up with the deitical Jones'.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b1.htm

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya after the Holy Ghost descended upon her.

The Egyptian God Horus was born of the virgin Isis; as an infant, he was visited by three kings.

In Phrygia, Attis was born of the virgin Nama.

A Roman savior Quirrnus was born of a virgin.

In Tibet, Indra was born of a virgin. He ascended into heaven after death.

The Greek deity Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrha, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. He was born "at Bethlehem, in the same sacred cave that Christians later claimed as the birthplace of Jesus." 4

In Persia, the god Mithra was born of a virgin on DEC-25. An alternate myth is that he emerged from a rock.

Also in Persia, Zoroaster was also born of a virgin.

In India, the god Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki.

Virgin births were claimed for many Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors and for Alexander the Great of Greece.

One source is quoted as saying that there were many mythological figures: Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and Horus who share a number of factors. All were believed to have:

been male.
lived in pre-Christian times.
had a god for a father.
human virgin for a mother.
had their birth announced by a heavenly display.
had their birth announced by celestial music.
been born about DEC-25.
had an attempt on their life by a tyrant while they were still an infant
met with a violent death.
rose again from the dead.

Almost all were believed to have:
been visited by "wise men" during infancy.
fasted for 40 days as an adult.

More theory from me and my liberal conspiracy. ;)

I've read a few things that would seem to tie the Egyptian beliefs to the young Christianity. A lot of ties between Horus and Jesus. Then again, Saint Paul was from the center of Mithracism and there are a lot of similarities between Mithras and Jesus, Mithras was just a bit more of a war god I believe. (Gunner? I suspect you would know...) Huh?...I just learned something new. Thanks :)

[Draconus Rex]

>As someone who was raised Catholic, and have studied other
religions,and a
>history buff, I thought I would chime in with a few theories about The
>blessed Mother's "virginity."
>
>1) The term "virgin" as we use it does not apply. You should read
"young
>woman" instead of "sexually intact."
>
>2) Mary was raped by a Roman Soldier(the most popular theory at the
>moment.) and the Immaculate Conception story was concocted to preserve
her
>honor.
>
>3) the whole thing was a made up by the early Christians to lend
validity
>to the Deification of Jesus by forfilling the prophesy that The
Messiah
>would be "born of a virgin".
>
>4)The story is true.
>
>I'm open to any other opinions

[rain_fallen_tears]

I know this is my plain naiveity(is that even a word? *looks confused and searches for dictionary....*) Watch: Dogma....:D:D:D....must excuse this movie geek....:)

[Aine of the Fae]

It's not a 'big deal', it's a matter of fulfillment of prophecy. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14 That passage was originally written in Hebrew and means "a young woman" (Strongs has it as "a lass")

God could have allowed Jesus to be born of man and woman, but that prophecy would then not have been fulfilled.

As to the geneology of Christ, it's traced through his mothers husband, as was the Jewish custom. We have the modern idea that a man isn't a child's father unless he was the one who contributed the sperm, but in ancient times a man would often take a servant as his son or would take a widow's younger son's as his own (the oldest would have remained the son/heir of his birth father)

However, the geneology that is used for this argument is the one found in Matthew 1. There is a second geneology in Luke 3. Both genologies start at Abraham and are the same through David, but there they split. Matthew accounts the genology of David's son Solomon and Luke accounts the geneology of Nathan, also David's son. Matthew is telling of Joseph's geneology, therefore Jesus legal heritage, traced to David and Luke is telling of Mary's geneology, or Jesus biological heritage, again traced to David. With those two geneologies, you have a firm foundation for the fulfillment of that particular prophecy.

So what about the fact that Luke says "He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of...."? Culturally women had little legal standing and needed to be 'covered' by men. It was a common practice to begin the geneology with the man and not the woman, even if it was her geneology.

The book of Matthew was written for the Jews, who honestly weren't all that considered with the biology of the child (ever read the story of Jacob in Genesis? His wife Rachel was barren for many years and so gave her maiden as Jacob's concubine, but the children were considered Rachel's not the maids) Jewish culture was concerned with the legal heritage of the child, and Joseph adopted Jesus as his own child, thereby making him his legal heir as far as Jewish law and custom was concerned.

Luke recounts Mary's geneology for those who would use the biological argument.

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that a descendant of David would bring redemption to the world through not only one family line, but through two. Next question?

[soilsigh aingeal]

I must have posted this in nearly 100 threads but here it goes again. Christmas is on December 25 because that is the birthday of Mithra. Constantine declared December 25 the official birthday of Jesus in 313 so that the Christians and the worshipers of Mithra would be celebrating on the same day.

O/T:
Well it's about time I found this tid bit of info! Just wanted to say thanks for posting it for the 101 time ;)

But anyway, I read before that Jesus was an illegitamate child because during those times people were only allowed to concieve during certain times of the year and Jesus was concieved outside of whatever time period. I think it said something like they should have been born around March or something and Jesus was born around aug/sept.
Does anyone know how true/not true this is?

[RubyRose]

Can't say I've heard that Jesus was illegitimate. I'll have a look around and see if I can find anything.

[RubyRose]

I found this:

The story of his allegedly illegitimate birth reports that Mary, the mother of Jesus, while engaged to Joseph the Betrothed, had an affair with a Roman soldier named Pantera or Pantheras and that Jesus was the result of this affair.

http://www.ezresult.com/article/Christ

[Tanoshii Gekitsuu]

I was watching NBC or something one night where they were talking about the whole Mary thing. Now, oddly enough, the king of wherever Mary was from, is expected to having raped her. So, Jesus could actually have been the King's child and Mary could have denied being raped and said 'he is the son of God' (which, in christianity, everyone is considered to be the children of God) and it could have been taken a bit too far.

[luna rising]

I have always considered "the virgin birth" a misinterpretation/mistranslation of "the immacculate conception." Immacculate Conception does not mean that Mary was a virgin, it means that she conceived a child without knowing or possessing original sin -- which would make Mary more of a spiritual figure than Jesus. She was a pure soul - she knew love without lust, need without greed, and hunger without gluttony. I was not raised in a church going family, so I might be way off base on this and please feel free to correct ,but it is my opnion in the origin of the phrase. I also just always assumed that Joseph was Jesus's biological father (the Son of God being a metaphor as was mentioned before - we are all sons of God) - but I have never read some of the interesting things you all are posting about the geneology of Christ. Makes me want to do a lot more reading up on the subject.

[Morr]

OR
as someone else already suggested on here - its a misinterpertation and bad translation from Hebrew/Arameic, where the word "Virgin" - "Betula", means "Maiden", not a girl who has never had sex before.

Which would fit nicely into the whole Mary as a "Madien, Mother & Crone" deal :)

[blueiris]

I think that they meant Mary was a virgin in the sense that she was pure and untouched by the cruelities of the world, and was not corrupted.

[Ben Trismegistus]

God could have allowed Jesus to be born of man and woman, but that prophecy would then not have been fulfilled.
But suppose it's the opposite. What if Jesus WAS born of a man and a woman, and the details were changed after the fact to make Jesus's biography better fit the prophecies?

It occurred to me this morning (while singing in a Good Friday service) that there's a fair number of details in the Gospels (for instance, the stuff in Matthew about the priests taking Judas's 30 pieces of silver after his suicide and using it to buy a potter's field, in accordance with the prophecies) that the Gospel writers simply wouldn't have had access to.

Additionally, it's important to take into account the Jewish storytelling tradition of midrash, in which stories are embellished using details from the Old Testament, in order to make even a new story seem familiar. That tradition was very popular around the time of the writing of the Gospels, and a non-Jew (like, for instance, the Greek Saul of Tarsus, who later became St. Paul) might be completely unaware of it and misinterpret the Gospels as entirely literal.

[Morr]

i <3 Jesus

but im not forgetting the option that he was the one who skeemed all this up.
he knew the prophacies, he read issiah and what it says there. he was familiar with the Jewish texts.
He could have may well be the one who declared himself messiah and came up with this biography of his to fit the prophacies, and teaching it to his apostles - who believed him.

Paul met Peter, and I also think Jacob, Jesus' brother. So he knew the story.

[Ben Trismegistus]

but im not forgetting the option that he was the one who skeemed all this up.
he knew the prophacies, he read issiah and what it says there. he was familiar with the Jewish texts.
He could have may well be the one who declared himself messiah and came up with this biography of his to fit the prophacies, and teaching it to his apostles - who believed him.
Nah, I doubt it. Jesus just wanted people to be better Jews.

[bellamandu]

around the time this was supposed to happen, at the age that mary would've been a typical virgin, that means that god would've been a pedophile. :lol:

[IvyWitch]

I believe it was best said in Dogma:

"Mary gave birth to *Christ* as a virgin. But to believe a married couple never got down is just plain silly.."

Other than that I have no real input on this subject. ^^;;;

[Morr]

people its probably a mistranslation.

the hebrew/arameic form of it is -
"Mary gave birth to Christ as Maiden"
meaning young girl who just got married, or its her first child.

In all the other bible stories, when the word "virgin" appears - it means "maiden"...
I dont think they actually went ahead and checked the young lady to see wether or not she got down & dirty with a guy.....

[Ben Trismegistus]

"Mary gave birth to *Christ* as a virgin. But to believe a married couple never got down is just plain silly.."
Well, that's pretty well accepted among any Christian scholar with a brain. (The "ever virgin" types tend to be the morons who don't really know anything about Christian scholarship.) James is referred to in the Bible as "the brother of Jesus". Unless he was also God's son, it stands to reason that Mary and Joseph were doing the nasty.