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Erebos
April 24th, 2010, 07:27 PM
I've been reading this wonderful book called Religions of the Ancient Greeks by Simon Price (Cambridge University Press, 1999), and he makes quite a few statements in the book that I think would benefit modern practitioners and how they view ancient Greek religion.

The introductory paragraph to chapter 5, "Girls and boys, women and men", contains many of these statements, such as:

"The modern Christian services for birth, marriage, and death have no exact ancient equivalent. Furthermore, it is unhelpful to search for 'the religion of the Greek household' as the prime locus of Greek religiosity... And the literary evidence, by its silence on the subject, also suggests strongly that the family is not the basic ideological unit of Greek religion." (Page 89.)

He goes on to say that the individual is the basic operating unit of Greek religion within the frameworks of public and private worship. I've seen Hellenic polytheism called a "household religion" online, which I think is inaccurate because ancient Greek religion was meant to function in both public and private spheres. The family did have its religious importance but it wasn't the main unit of religiosity, which, as Price states, was actually the individual. That's good news for modern practitioners, as many of us practice individually. Public worship isn't really an option anymore, but it's worth noting that Greek religion has a communal function, not just a private one in the household.

I think the above passage sums up ancient Greek religion nicely in comparison to modern Christianity, describing how ancient Greek rites of passage did not function the same way as Christians ones. Discussions on ancient Greek marriage often get heated when it comes to the same-sex marriage issue, as some groups like to claim homosexual couples do not fit into the context of "religious marriages". What they don't realize, is what Price also states:

"At the subsequent wedding, there was no marriage service, no one religious ritual that sanctified the occasion." (Page 96.) He discusses how many rituals called on various gods at different points of the betrothal period and actual marriage, sacrificing to appropriate gods at certain times, but no single marriage ritual declaring the couple as husband and wife. Marriages were primarily contracts between the bride's father and husband, where the girl was given for the purpose of producing children for her husband's family line, with a dowry included as part of the deal. It wasn't a celebration of love by any means, and though minor religious customs accompanied preparing for marriage, the wedding itself was not a religious service. When it comes to ancient Greek marriages, it's more of a question of legal versus non-legal marriages (concubinage), not religious versus non-religious, as no marriages were religious.

I highly recommend the book, as it is very helpful in that it describes how ancient practices differ from Christian practices and ideas, so that the reader gets a more accurate understanding of ancient religion. It also discusses festivals, myths and their local variations, elective cults, temples and their functions, and philosophers. I also like how Price discusses problematic elements, such as the interpretation of festivals and their meanings/functions, and problems with the translations of certain words. It just shows that scholars don't know as much as people who only read secondary material (like this book) think they do. It's also a much lighter read than Burkert, though it deals with material that is just as substantial. It doesn't go into much detail about the practical side of worship (which Burkert is the best for, anyway), but it's a great book to get an overall understanding of ancient Greek religiosity. I also like how "Religions" is plural in the title, showing that ancient Greek religion was not a singular tradition, but a cultural system with many local variants and a wide range of influences.

David19
April 24th, 2010, 08:01 PM
Sounds very cool, I'll try and check it out one day (after I've finished the books I currently have), even though I'm not a Hellenic Recon, I do really like learning about the religion, how it was practiced in ancient times, how it's adapted for the 21st century, etc.

I've also seen it said that there wasn't really one religion, but, religions like you (and the author) said. I think YoungSoulRebel (on either here or Hellenistai) said, if the ancient Greek religion(s) had survived down to the present day, it would seem similar to Hinduism, in part anyway, like a collection of different sects worshipping different Gods, believing different things, focusing on different areas, etc (e.g. in Hinduism you get sects devoted to Shiva as the Ultimate Form of the Divine, while others worship Vishnu as the Ultimate Deity, some just focus on worship, like making offerings, praying for help, etc, others focus on more abstract Philosophical notions or on Yoga (which is more than just physical exercise), if the ancient Greek religion had survived, you may have people worshipping different Gods as the Supreme God, some focusing on just general worship, others in contemplation or meditation on the Ultimate Reality, etc).

Anyway, good post, that book sounds really interesting.

Erebos
April 25th, 2010, 12:59 PM
I think YoungSoulRebel (on either here or Hellenistai) said, if the ancient Greek religion(s) had survived down to the present day, it would seem similar to Hinduism, in part anyway, like a collection of different sects worshipping different Gods, believing different things, focusing on different areas, etc (e.g. in Hinduism you get sects devoted to Shiva as the Ultimate Form of the Divine, while others worship Vishnu as the Ultimate Deity, some just focus on worship, like making offerings, praying for help, etc, others focus on more abstract Philosophical notions or on Yoga (which is more than just physical exercise), if the ancient Greek religion had survived, you may have people worshipping different Gods as the Supreme God, some focusing on just general worship, others in contemplation or meditation on the Ultimate Reality, etc).

I agree with that, I think Hellenic polytheism would have a lot in common with Hinduism if it survived unbroken into the present. Definitely more in common with Hinduism than Christianity, for example.

Twinkle
April 25th, 2010, 02:25 PM
Reconstruction isn't about "what might be if the religion hadn't been interrupted"

Reconstruction is about reconstructing ancient practice while still keeping in mind we live in the 21st Century -so while we can postulate all we want what the religion "might have been", it has no practical value for Reconstructionists . To do otherwise creates a new religion based on nothing but biased guesses.

Your source is right in that there is no Christian equivalent to birthing ceremonies, marriage rituals, etc. There definitely were rituals for bringing a new baby home, rituals for weddings, etc. and many of these rituals were presided over by the man of the household. The Christian connotation is not the same, and no one that I know of has ever tried to find a correlation between the two.

I don't know where you've heard that Hellenismos is a household religion - but it is not true. The religion was part of three different things - the household religion, the public religion, and the Mystery Cults. That's basic 101 stuff. Perhaps you're confusing it with saying that the religion is based on the family - which absolutely is true from a historical and cultural perspective. The family did worship at home with the man of the household acting as the priest, and the families did show up to worship communally.

Part of what reconstructionist are trying to do is bring back the community (public) worship. It *is* an option, and not something that we are willing to say cannot and will not happen.

Erebos
April 25th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Reconstruction isn't about "what might be if the religion hadn't been interrupted"

I don't think anyone said it was, it's just that Hinduism provides a good model for a polytheistic and pluralistic religious culture.


Your source is right in that there is no Christian equivalent to birthing ceremonies, marriage rituals, etc. There definitely were rituals for bringing a new baby home, rituals for weddings, etc. and many of these rituals were presided over by the man of the household. The Christian connotation is not the same, and no one that I know of has ever tried to find a correlation between the two.

Of course he's right, he's a distinguished scholar and professor at Oxford University. Not that academics are always right about everything, but I figure he's a reliable source.

His point wasn't that there were *no* rituals for newborns and weddings, just that they were not equivalent to modern Christian ones of a similar nature. For example, after a few days a baby is ritually presented into the household by walking around the hearth once the impurity from the birth has gone away. This is different than a Christian baptism, which ritually removes the stain of the original sin, and welcomes the baby into the church. Both ceremonies involve babies, but are for different purposes. Christian weddings involve a service to sanctify the union, while ancient cultures have no such equivalent. A girl may dedicate her childhood toys to Artemis before she joins her new husband's household, her parents may make sacrifices to Aphrodite Ourania in Athens after the betrothal, and Zeus and Hera may be offered sacrifices at the time of the transfer of the bride into the husband's household, but there was no service to religiously sanctify them as husband and wife.


The religion was part of three different things - the household religion, the public religion, and the Mystery Cults. That's basic 101 stuff. Perhaps you're confusing it with saying that the religion is based on the family - which absolutely is true from a historical and cultural perspective. The family did worship at home with the man of the household acting as the priest, and the families did show up to worship communally.

Part of what reconstructionist are trying to do is bring back the community (public) worship. It *is* an option, and not something that we are willing to say cannot and will not happen.

In my understanding, mystery cults were elective, not a required aspect of ancient Greek religion. As for the family, no one is saying it wasn't a major part of private worship, but it wasn't the basic unit of Greek religiosity. Individuals had their own functions in religious life, both within the family and in public worship. Women had festivals that didn't include men and the family that were their own, such as the Thesmophoria. Young girls had cult functions in the temples of goddesses like Artemis and Athena. The family and the father were important for household worship, but individuals had religious functions outside of the family.

I'm not saying public worship can never happen, it's just difficult when a tradition doesn't have enough adherents and a practitioner doesn't have physical access to other practitioners. There's no need to be defensive, I'm not trying to be critical.

Twinkle
April 25th, 2010, 05:16 PM
I'm not defensive. :) As the only Greek Reconstructionist in this Forum, I'm giving you my perspective as a Recon.

I think that you may be getting some skewed information that makes you think that the Hellenic religion needs clarifying - and I'm coming to that conclusion based on your choice of wording for the name of this thread.

The Mystery cults were initiatory - but they were still an integral part of the religion, just practiced alongside the home and public worship.

Individual practice is not conducive to Hellenismos. In fact, it's quite frustrating that most of us do have to practice that way - but the truth of it is most of us aren't old enough or settled down enough to have families in order to practice in that way. I'm lucky that I am able to raise my child in the religion - as did the Ancients.

Of course there are some people who based on other circumstances feel disenfranchised - and I don't feel comfortable with them being that way - but the fact does remain that Hellenismos in its *totality* wasn't and has never been a solitary practice.

Erebos
April 25th, 2010, 05:32 PM
In that case, thank you for your insight. :)

I agree it's not meant to be a solitary practice, but my impression was that it is concerned with how the individual (rather than the family as a unit) functions in the public and private religious spheres.

You may be the only Hellenic Recon on the board, but if it makes you feel any better, I'm a Hellenic polytheist for the most part, with a bit of Egyptian influence. I've been following the Attic calendar for several years now and during every act of honor, I honor Hestia first. Even though I was interested in Wicca and Feri recently, I think that phase is over. ;)

*~Amora~*
April 25th, 2010, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the literary reference, Erebos, I've added it to my wishlist!

Erebos
April 25th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the literary reference, Erebos, I've added it to my wishlist!

No problem! It's definitely a must-read.