Reconstruction vs. Renewal

[Tom Terrific]

I went looking this morning for a fondly-remembered passage but couldn't find it in the book where I thought it was; so, I looked on-line and found chapter 22 (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_22.html) of The Story of Religious Controversy (1929), by Joseph McCabe, under the subheading “The Secret Cult.” It is about Witchcraft.

McCabe was an ex-Franciscan monk, a freethinker and a very prolific writer. While he does refer to Margaret Murray appreciatively, Murray’s errors are beside the present point. He has many fascinating things to say about Witchcraft.

First, according to McCabe, there is a great deal of corroboration amongst accused Witches as to their organization and ritual. The notion that this corroboration was the result of torture, forcing admission to Inquisitorial fantasies, is mitigated against by the fact that torture was not used in England, yet the testimony given by English Witches matched that of their fellows on the continent.

Second, Witches often gloried in their faith. McCabe recounts several fascinating stories of Witches who died refusing to renounce their religion, some even laughing as they were about to be executed.

Third, he calls Witchcraft a “phallic” religion and avers that Witches’ testimony was almost unanimous that a sexual orgy generally took place at Sabbat meetings. He disagrees with Murray’s notion that the primary significance of the sex was fertility, concluding instead that the principal object was “the frank human joy in...sensual abandonment” to the “Dionysiac urge.”

If McCabe is right, then it must be remarked how far contemporary exposition of Witchcraft has strayed from its historical antecedents. According to McCabe, dancing and feasting occupied a significant part of the celebration. I know some Witches do dance at their meetings, but very seldom have I seen it; and, in my experience, feasting is usually treated as something separate and apart from the celebration proper. And then, there’s the sex... As McCabe describes it, the Sabbat is a carouse, a revel, a literal bacchanal; and what I’ve seen has never even come close to this.

I think this discontinuity, between what was and what is, is due in part to the fact that most people practicing Witchcraft today are practicing a religion that is mostly a rational reconstruction, and is therefore limited by the conceptual prejudices of the current age. This is why it often lacks life and fails to feed the spiritual needs of many of its adherents, who either wander away in other directions or end up practicing a religion of style or mere scholarship rather than substance.

How does one solve this problem? How does one transcend the limits of one’s rational frame of reference? By transcending one’s reason. By direct spiritual encounter, beyond the limits of rational thought. In other words, ecstasy. Ecstasy is the life of religion and brings true renewal and enlightenment.

POSTSCRIPT: After posting this, I subsequently found what I'd been looking for in precisely the book I had originally thought it was in: Sex in History, by G. Rattray Taylor, chapter 14 (http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/taylorgr/sxnhst/chap14.htm). It was a fortunate error, though, because McCabe brings some interesting insights to the discussion.

[ffetcher]

Between you, you and McCabe make some good points. I don't agree with all of them, but they're good points anyway.

Bearing in mind that I haven't read the McCabe book, let me comment on your expression of it.

Firstly, torture isn't the only way to obtain false corroboration: in fields such as folklore and anthropology, practitioners often fall foul of a problem with interview technique where the two parties are unequal, in that there is a tendency for the subject, consciously or unconsciously, to regard the interviewer as superior.

The result can be illustrated by an example outside of paganism, there's the renowned folk song and dance collector Cecil Sharp, investigating the context of Morris Dancing. A number of the teams he first encountered had a hobby horse. Sharp was well-known as an 'expert', so when he asked later interviewees whether they had a hobby-horse, there was a pronounced tendency to suddenly 'remeber' that the side once had a horse, because the interviewee figured that without it, it wasn't a 'proper' Morris team.

It's certainly true that quite early on the inquisitors had a 'model' of what witchcraft was, so even if it's correct that (a) the witch-trial evidence show a high degree of corroboration and (b) torture wasn't used, it's quite possible that an accused who genuinely believed that they were enacting witchcraft would, when confronted by leading questions, consider that they'd been 'doing it wrong' and answer in the affirmative in order to conform.

Incidentally, I'm not sure to what extent (a) and (b) are actually supportable, but that's beside the point.

Secondly, I suspect that the descriptions are 'ecstatic' rather than 'orgiastic', depicting sex with the representation of the man in black (interpreted by Christian commentators as ;the devil') or with one's partner, rather than with many partners. That's my interpretation of the 'Benevento' in Aradia (though again it's impossible to verify to what extent that description matches praxis) - the lights are extinguished and you know that everyone else is doing it as well, but the sex is with your regular partner. Still ecstatic ritual sex, though.

Thirdly, recent scholars such as Emma Wilby suggest that the descriptions are of shamanic experiences rather than actual enactment. She suggests that the practitioners 'journeyed' to a familiar place on a particular night, experienced the same things (the technical term is 'cultural determination') and compared notes some time later.

Having said all of which, it's clear that the praxis has been filtered several times (well, pretty much continuously, but I'll take three). Leaving aside Aradia, and for the moment ignoring where Gardner's coven originated, it was filtered by the publication process in the 1940s-1950s. Most of the identifiable members of the 'inner group' of the Crotona Fellowship were naturists, but although there seems to have been some limited bed-hopping, in the main they stuck with their partners. Again, as originally made public the material contains quite a lot of Crowleyesqe stuff, and Valiente edited most of that out, probably again to suit popular mores.

It was filtered again in the mid 1960s both in the US when it encountered the feminist movement and in the UK when disputes started concerning who originated the material.

It was filtered again in the 1990s when it began to be acceptable to declare oneself a witch - you could do so in the main without fear of losing your job, and as publications aimed at teenagers became popular.

Without delving into oathbound material, the appearance from the outside is that what today constitutes "Gardnerian" Wicca carries social mores from all three periods. It's also become a 'full-service' religion with rituals for rites of passage. I fully concur that this means that the result doesn't fulfill the real needs of many practitioners.

I also agree that transcendence and ecstasy are a necessary part of religion - for most people, at least. But Gardner lists eight ways, of which sex (the Great Rite) is just one - in 1953, he lists:


Meditation or Concentration.
Trance, projection of the Astral.
Rites, Chants, Spells, Runes, Charms, etc.
Incense, Drugs, Wine, etc., whatever is used to release the Spirit.
The Dance, and kindred practices.
Blood control (the Cords), Breath Control, and kindred practices.
The Scourge.
The Great Rite.

The ritual given in full in Witchcraft Today is essentially dance and chant, and I can certainly vouch for the transcendence of Flemish Christian plainchant after a long procession.

blessings
ffetcher

[odubhain]

I also agree that transcendence and ecstasy are a necessary part of religion - for most people, at least. But Gardner lists eight ways, of which sex (the Great Rite) is just one - in 1953, he lists:


Meditation or Concentration.
Trance, projection of the Astral.
Rites, Chants, Spells, Runes, Charms, etc.
Incense, Drugs, Wine, etc., whatever is used to release the Spirit.
The Dance, and kindred practices.
Blood control (the Cords), Breath Control, and kindred practices.
The Scourge.
The Great Rite.

The ritual given in full in Witchcraft Today is essentially dance and chant, and I can certainly vouch for the transcendence of Flemish Christian plainchant after a long procession.

blessings
ffetcher


That is what I've been told is known as the "Eight-Fold Way" that leads to altered states in Gardnarian practices. After reading both messages in this thread, I am led to believe that each "way" is a prelude to the body-mind-spirit connection preparing for death. A release from the usual overload of senses and thoughts to an overall focus on the immediacy of the present experience (death in its many forms and analogs) allows the spirit to free itself with the mind riding its back and barely holding on while in flight; perhaps providing some guidance.

It's all about release without completely crossing the boundaries that forever sever the connection to life. Torture and similar practices create a kind of "space" in which the subject experiences this release. Sex is called "the little death" by the way it mimics the actual release of death. Drugs overwhelm the mind and create a necessary havoc to block the mind-body-spirit connections. Entraining the mind to a rhythm through sound, light or movement also produces this effect. Attaining "nothingness" is also a trigger. The control or disconnection to the physical sought in some forms of Yoga is also a simulated death. Hypnosis is also a channel into which one pours one's will to become detached to the point of being able to fly.

The ancient Druids taught that there are two main forms of attaining ecstasy: extreme joy or an equally extreme anguish. Illness can trigger this reaction. Shamanic "shattering" or a crisis also lead down this path. Sex and ordeals are mentioned as two forms of this "agony and ecstasy" release. Disciplines and drugs are two others. Chanting and movement are an additional two. Sensory deprivation and extreme conditions of temperature are also notable ways. Physical exhaustion is yet another. Burial and drowning are two more. Death itself is the final release and spiritual flight. If the mind is sufficiently strengthened through ritually enacting of near death, then it has a chance to make the final ride and guide the experience. Entire books of the dead have been generated in some cultures to teach this process. In modern times Near Death Experiences (NDE) are a class of the death release that has become categorized by semi-science. The powers of the Siddhis arise in a person from this release and liberation of mind and spirit.

In today's world, the outward descriptions of the "ways" are tailored to fit the social and political consciousness as has been mentioned. However, this can go so far that it affects the inward workings and rites. When that happens, the "ways" become a sham of themselves and are relegated to play and "going through the motions." When the Abyss becomes a line on a paper diagram or all of being is merely a symbol in a lattice structure, then our own flights of ecstasy and illumination are merely a light bulb on a cartoon bubble. There is such a thing as diluting the original wine with too much water. That is a way to lose life without the ecstasy while losing death's renewing power at the same time. When this happens to a culture or a person, they lose life's lessons as well and are doomed to repeat the process all over again.

ISTM that getting back to the basics in medically possible, legally allowable and socially acceptable ways are the keys to repowering ritual and religion.

Searles O'Dubhain

[ffetcher]

That is what I've been told is known as the "Eight-Fold Way" that leads to altered states in Gardnarian practices.

"The Eight-fold Way" is indeed the title of that section in the material made public in 1953.


In today's world, the outward descriptions of the "ways" are tailored to fit the social and political consciousness as has been mentioned. However, this can go so far that it affects the inward workings and rites. When that happens, the "ways" become a sham of themselves and are relegated to play and "going through the motions." When the Abyss becomes a line on a paper diagram or all of being is merely a symbol in a lattice structure, then our own flights of ecstasy and illumination are merely a light bulb on a cartoon bubble. There is such a thing as diluting the original wine with too much water. That is a way to lose life without the ecstasy while losing death's renewing power at the same time. When this happens to a culture or a person, they lose life's lessons as well and are doomed to repeat the process all over again.

ISTM that getting back to the basics in medically possible, legally allowable and socially acceptable ways are the keys to repowering ritual and religion.

I agree that a lot of ritual and religion has lost its previous power. Since you mention the Abyss, I'll comment on 'socially acceptable' from my view of the Flemish 'Begijn' movement, C13-C15 Women's spirituality within a Christian context. Various commentators on the period suggest that this movement sheltered another movement known as the "Free Spirits", who believed in direct attainment of perfection in this life, and also that a 'perfected' person could commit any act and remain perfect. People accused of being Free Spirits were regularly charged with nudity and sexual license, amongst other things.

The Free Spirits, if they existed at all, were certainly heretics. Some Begijns were also charged with heresy, and a few were burned, notably Marguerite Porete. Much of their writing is deeply erotic (my wife calls Bearijs' of Nazareth's "Seven Ways" 'pstcho-sexual sado-masochism') but expressed metaphorically in terms of union, usually between "Love" and "Soul", together with a gradual drawing apart from the physical world.

Although off topic, I can't resist just one quote from Beatrijs, in terms of explicit-ness though:

"Then, like a barrel full to the brim, if She is suddenly stirred up, She will overflow and flood immediately. She will be completely overcome by the fullness of Her heart, so the She has no choice but to lose Herself completely." (my trsl from Flemish)

The "lives" ("Vitae") of these mystic women were usually written after their death, normally by men, and describe extreme asceticism, self-flagellation, extreme fasting, sleep deprivation and so on. Marie of Oignies was known as a demon-slayer and a seer and if you strip the trimmings away the descriptions are very similar to those of journeying for soul-retrieval. As described in the Vitae, mechanisms for achieving enlightenment cover all of Gardner's Ways except drugs and sex.

But, as I think the Beatrijs quote shows, in the writings the sex shows through. Though couched in 'acceptable' terms, and expressed in metaphor of the period, it's perfectly possible to use the writings of Beatrijs, Marguerite and a third writer 'Hadewijc of Brabant' as manuals for attaining enlightenment using sex magic. Certainly, the English translation of Porete's "Mirouer" felt it necessary to warn that the book should be 'read rightly, without lewdness' (paraphrase), and if some people weren't reading it the other way, why bother? Since your comment about the Abyss was what prompted this post, here it comes.

The term is used explicitly in most cases, and I suspect that these writings are the source of the word in later texts. The document I'm working on at the moment calls it 'the place wherein you die the bitter death, but live' (my trsl from Latin), which isn't quite 'le petit mort', but close. Beatrijs actually has two abysses in her seven-stage system, Hadewijc a single one in her twelve stages. Interestingly, though, although crossing the abyss is always transformational, it's not always something intensely painful, nor is it always possible to fail to cross it, once you've decided to do so. The previous stage is somewhere where you feel comfortable, think you've reached true enlightenment, but you haven't, and you have to realise that there's something more beyond, before you know that there's something to cross. Basically, the descriptions work whether you assume that they're describing an ecstatic response to meditation, or an ecstatic response to sex.

But as a psychology postgrad with whom I occasionally discuss the stuff once said:

"the fact that the most authors of the texts were probably using the imagery from contemporary secular erotic poetry to express their union with the divine doesn’t mean that some people did use them as sex-magic systems. In fact, human nature being what it is, it would be more strange if some people didn’t try."

The point here is that the stuff was expressed in a 'socially acceptable' way. Modern neuroscience backs up the fact that it 'works' as meditation; my wife and I can vouch for it working with sex as well - it's impossible to work on erotic document in mediaeval Latin and early Flemish, where you have to think of the precise meaning and context of every word, for very long before "it would be strange if some people didn't try". So, 'medically possible'.

These days it would be 'socially acceptable' to publish it as an explicit magical system, it wasn't then and Porete probably paid the ultimate price because she over-stepped the mark. However, my point in my original posting about the 'filtering' of Wicca still applies. It would be acceptable for me to publish this as a system (there is in fact a complete system on my web site and I've only ever had one hate-mail). If I were to publish it within a Wiccan framework that would certainly change, and if I published it in a format specifically aimed at sixteen-year-old girls I'd have the tabloid papers down on me like a ton of bricks as well. And if I linked it instead with the Begijns, I'd have half of Belgium on my tail, as well as most of the American religious feminists.

The same goes for drugs, or even alcohol. We have a couple of brews (one I designed, one I worked on with a friend) that, whilst completely unnecessary in reality, do provide a short-cut and are also quite fun. Gardner would, I think, have approved, although after the 'alcohol and drugs' bit, he adds the warning:

"Note. One must be very careful about this. Incense is usually harmless, but you must be careful. If it has bad aftereffects, reduce the amount used, or the duration of the time it is inhaled. Drugs are very dangerous if taken to excess, but it must be remembered that there are drugs that are absolutely harmless, though people talk of them with bated breath, but Hemp is especially dangerous, because it unlocks the inner eye swiftly and easily, so one is tempted to use it more and more. If it is used at all, it must be with the strictest precautions, to see that the person who uses it has no control over the supply. This should be doled out by some responsible person, and the supply strictly limited."again, I could publish the recipes, and in fact my friend probably will, but do so in anything aimed at younger people (as most books on Wicca seem to be, for example) and firstly, I'd be a victim of the current backlash against underage drinking, as a result of which someone would look carefully and work out that the effects of the (entirely legal, entirely safe used in accordance with Gardner's guidelines) one on which we collaborated has effects that are quite similar to MDMA (ecstasy), and could be used as a club-drug you can brew at home. I dread to think what my ISP would say about that cease-and-desist.

blessings
ffecther

[Tom Terrific]

I want to thank both of you who have responded so far to my initial post. It is rare for me to get intelligent feedback on the question of sexual practice, and you have both certainly given me that. I have taken a while to make my own response because I wanted to take some time to reflect on what you have said.

It might be of interest to you to know where I am coming from. I have been solitary for almost all of my years in the Craft. Excepting one event, I have virtually no experience practicing sexually with others, though I occasionally incorporate sexual practice in my personal devotions. My limited experience has been that sexual practice is a key to “great leaps forward” in spirituality, in understanding, in inspiration and in relationship with the divine.

I do not believe that sex is the only way to experience religious ecstasy. I had never before seen Gardner’s “Eight-Fold Way,” though most of the Ways listed were not unfamiliar to me as paths to ecstasy. My working hypothesis, however, is that it is the best way, for those who are prepared to take it.


Firstly, torture isn't the only way to obtain false corroboration...That’s a good point.


Secondly, I suspect that the descriptions are 'ecstatic' rather than 'orgiastic'...One problem I have with this suggestion is that there must be some reason to not take the accounts at face value. Of course, there may well have been variation in how sexual worship manifested; but that doesn’t mean the orgy wasn’t normative. Furthermore, why assume a division between the orgiastic and the ecstatic? I can imagine ecstatic value to the experience, in transcending personal boundaries within the context of divine communion. (I have just received a book in today’s mail that I think builds on this idea, though so far I have only read quotes from it: A Contribution to the Sociology of the Orgy, by Michel Maffesoli. Perhaps you are already familiar with it.) Finally, there seems to be general agreement among historians that orgies were a part of worship in many ancient pagan contexts. While I don’t believe in historical continuity between ancient paganism and Witchcraft of the Middle Ages, and I don’t believe that pagans in different cultures learned this from one another, if we assume that there is a spiritual value to sexual worship, then it would not be unexpected for this fact to be discovered independently by many cultures throughout history. (And, if we believe in divine revelation, there would be even more reason for it to appear.)


Thirdly, recent scholars such as Emma Wilby suggest that the descriptions are of shamanic experiences rather than actual enactment.I have read of astral sex, and see no reason to discount it. But, again, I think the default starting position must be that references to sexual rites must be referring to actual sexual practices, unless there is some reason not to do so.


Without delving into oathbound material, the appearance from the outside is that what today constitutes "Gardnerian" Wicca carries social mores from all three periods. It's also become a 'full-service' religion with rituals for rites of passage. I fully concur that this means that the result doesn't fulfill the real needs of many practitioners.Thank you for making this point so well. When revelation appears, it is we who are given the opportunity to adapt to it. If instead we attempt to adapt it to us, we change it from what it was to a mere reflection of ourselves. We should expect the advent of Spirit to shake us up, to challenge us, to push us toward boundaries we would rather avoid.


That is what I've been told is known as the "Eight-Fold Way" that leads to altered states in Gardnarian practices. After reading both messages in this thread, I am led to believe that each "way" is a prelude to the body-mind-spirit connection preparing for death. A release from the usual overload of senses and thoughts to an overall focus on the immediacy of the present experience (death in its many forms and analogs) allows the spirit to free itself with the mind riding its back and barely holding on while in flight; perhaps providing some guidance.

It's all about release without completely crossing the boundaries that forever sever the connection to life.A fascinating idea. I can see the sense in it.


In today's world, the outward descriptions of the "ways" are tailored to fit the social and political consciousness as has been mentioned. However, this can go so far that it affects the inward workings and rites. When that happens, the "ways" become a sham of themselves and are relegated to play and "going through the motions." When the Abyss becomes a line on a paper diagram or all of being is merely a symbol in a lattice structure, then our own flights of ecstasy and illumination are merely a light bulb on a cartoon bubble. There is such a thing as diluting the original wine with too much water. That is a way to lose life without the ecstasy while losing death's renewing power at the same time. When this happens to a culture or a person, they lose life's lessons as well and are doomed to repeat the process all over again.

ISTM that getting back to the basics in medically possible, legally allowable and socially acceptable ways are the keys to repowering ritual and religion.Thank you for that wine-and-water metaphor. That's a great image.

My working hypothesis is that the spiritual value of sex is a universal human truth.

I have always believed that breaking through artificial cultural boundaries rather than submitting to them was fundamental to Witchcraft. Yes, it’s scary, even dangerous; but any religion that doesn’t challenge us to grow beyond where we are is nothing but playacting, imho. I think there’s a lot of that happening today, too. An awful lot.

[ffetcher]

My limited experience has been that sexual practice is a key to “great leaps forward” in spirituality, in understanding, in inspiration and in relationship with the divine.

I do not believe that sex is the only way to experience religious ecstasy. I had never before seen Gardner’s “Eight-Fold Way,” though most of the Ways listed were not unfamiliar to me as paths to ecstasy. My working hypothesis, however, is that it is the best way, for those who are prepared to take it.

That’s a good point.

I'd suggest rather that sex is the best way for some people. I'm not about to argue some 'superiority' for those people over those who take another path.


One problem I have with this suggestion is that there must be some reason to not take the accounts at face value. Of course, there may well have been variation in how sexual worship manifested; but that doesn’t mean the orgy wasn’t normative. Furthermore, why assume a division between the orgiastic and the ecstatic? I can imagine ecstatic value to the experience, in transcending personal boundaries within the context of divine communion.

I'm not sure about this - transcending personal boundaries doesn't have to mean swapping partners, although of course that's one way of doing it. There is some evidence from studies in the East that really advanced practices work better in a monogamous relationship - I'm not aware of any scholarly work for Western techniques. I'm not painting a division between orgiastic and ecstatic, clearly an orgy is an ecstatic experience, but ecstasy doesn't have to involve partner-swapping.


(I have just received a book in today’s mail that I think builds on this idea, though so far I have only read quotes from it: A Contribution to the Sociology of the Orgy, by Michel Maffesoli. Perhaps you are already familiar with it.)

No, and thanks for the tip.


Finally, there seems to be general agreement among historians that orgies were a part of worship in many ancient pagan contexts. While I don’t believe in historical continuity between ancient paganism and Witchcraft of the Middle Ages, and I don’t believe that pagans in different cultures learned this from one another, if we assume that there is a spiritual value to sexual worship, then it would not be unexpected for this fact to be discovered independently by many cultures throughout history. (And, if we believe in divine revelation, there would be even more reason for it to appear.)

Just two points here - whilst commentators seem to agree that orgies formed a part of worship, there's less evidence that they were a regular part. They may equally well have been a one-off taboo breaking, like priestesses offering ritual sex to a stranger a part of their initiation or covens that allegedly insist on the great rite with a stranger as part of their initiation.

But yes, brain function for both the 'sensed presence' effect and the 'one with everything' state of meditation are documented, and since the experience of sexual worship seems to me to be remarkably similar if not identical, I'd suggest that a clinical study would show the same effect, ie that response to sexual worship is hard-wired, and thus that it would be rediscovered over and over again.


I have read of astral sex, and see no reason to discount it. But, again, I think the default starting position must be that references to sexual rites must be referring to actual sexual practices, unless there is some reason not to do so.

Wilby makes a compelling case for at least partly astral/shamanic effects in her study of the Issabel Gowdie trial, for example, but taking my psychologist's viewpoint that it would be strange for people not to try it, some at least of the references are probably those of physical sex. Being fair, though, Hutton's essay 'The Scottish Witch-trial in Context' examines the evidence from eastern Europe and Scandinavia and comes to the opposite conclusion. What I don't see either for lowland Scotland or for southern and eastern England, is evidence for organised groups prior to the height of the 'witch-trials'.


When revelation appears, it is we who are given the opportunity to adapt to it. If instead we attempt to adapt it to us, we change it from what it was to a mere reflection of ourselves. We should expect the advent of Spirit to shake us up, to challenge us, to push us toward boundaries we would rather avoid.

. . .

My working hypothesis is that the spiritual value of sex is a universal human truth.

. . .

I have always believed that breaking through artificial cultural boundaries rather than submitting to them was fundamental to Witchcraft. Yes, it’s scary, even dangerous; but any religion that doesn’t challenge us to grow beyond where we are is nothing but playacting, imho. I think there’s a lot of that happening today, too. An awful lot.

Even though one of the inquisition diagnostics was that any act is natural if nature demands it, and unnatural if it does not (the most commonly quoted example is that intercourse can be a natural act when a kiss is not), a rough search through my notes reveals only something like fifteen accusations of orgiastic workings that could reasonably be associated with the Free Spirit movement, at least two of which are clearly trumped up charges. The majority of the remainder come from a relatively small area of the Rhineland, over a fairly short period, less than fifty years. The reports do demonstrate both that the charges were believable and that orgies were well worth recording, and under those circumstances, if religious orgies were widespread in northern Europe in C13-C15, I'd expect a higher density of similar charges. If, therefore, at least some of the writings classified as Begijn were in fact intended as manuals of sexual transformation, I'd suggest that the practitioners were doing something else. And of course the Rhinelanders were not using the same transformational system.

I referred in an earlier post to the Flemish document I'm working on. The Latin uses five different words, all of which can reasonably be translated as either inebriation or ecstasy. The analogy with my earlier quote from Beatrijs of Nazareth about overflowing holds good here, because "Calix me inebrians" (Ps 23) is usually translated as 'my cup overflows', but of course actually means 'the chalice inebriates me'. If I'm reading the stuff correctly (and I'm by no means certain yet) then these form five stages of response to sexual worship (either metaphorical or enacted), and I've settled for 'stepping out of oneself'; 'ignoring the world without stepping out of it altogether'; 'departure from powerlessness into the possibility of union'; 'distance from the world'; and 'transformation beyond normal consciousness'. Each stage challenges the practitioners to grow beyond where they are at that time, and, leaving aside the issue of how firm my translation is, because the sequence certainly works with enacted sex, can do so outside of the context of partner-swapping orgies. I don't know how well a developmental sequence would work within that context, and in fact I'm pretty certain that this particular one wouldn't

Just my view, of course, but it's certainly supported by a number of others, such as Delores Ashcroft-Nowicki.

blessings
ffetcher

[odubhain]

I'm in the middle of a move from Alabama to the Washington D.C. area so I will be absent from this thread for at least a week (unless fortune favors me). I view this discussion as a learning experience, adding depth and breadth to the concepts. I was already familiar with the basics and the specifics I've encountered but being able to read and consider the knowledge that you both are presenting is a golden opportunity.

I am curious about the reference to Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki as she has long been a favorite reference and read for me regarding magic, witchcraft and pathworking. I've been lucky enough to meet her in cyberspace and to have some other interactions with her but have yet to meet her in person (which I hope to do if ever I am in the Channel Islands or she makes another tour in the United States).

I'm looking forward to studying the books and references that you've provided. Science, magic, mysticism, religion, spirituality, psychology and human physiology all meld together in these experiences we are discussing. They seem to point out that there is a two pathway from the inner realms to discovery in traditions and practices that may well be independent of culture yet a shared part of being human.

Searles O'Dubhain

[ffetcher]

I'm in the middle of a move from Alabama to the Washington D.C. area so I will be absent from this thread for at least a week (unless fortune favors me).

Hope it went well, or is still going well, whichever applies...


I am curious about the reference to Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki as she has long been a favorite reference and read for me regarding magic, witchcraft and pathworking. I've been lucky enough to meet her in cyberspace and to have some other interactions with her but have yet to meet her in person (which I hope to do if ever I am in the Channel Islands or she makes another tour in the United States).

This isn't quite as far OT for witchcraft as some people might think...

I've met Delores a few times; she's a jolly lady and a captivating speaker, as well as being incredibly knowledgeable. In over thirty years I've only met a handful of pagans and occultists who display all three traits to the extent she does. On curses: 'of course words have power. consider this minor curse: "I've always liked that dress you're wearing - how nice to see that it's back in fashion"'. When last we met we were discussing "writer's block": it's nice to know that she is, after all, human.

My wife and I bought "The Tree of Ecstasy", her Western Mystery School manual/system of sex magic, as a shared anniversary present on our first anniversary, some twenty years ago. The writing is somewhat dated - and slightly twee by modern standards - but it remains a very good book.

blessings
ffetcher

[Twilight Siren]

I'll have to read this in more detail later, when my eyes don't feel so strained from the computer screen . . it ruins my focus and make me read carelessly . . . but regardless of any of the "ways" of the past . . I never practice anything that doesn't feel, spiritual, fulfilling, and "right" . . it's never to be about "going through the motions" . . there are no empty actions :thumbsup:

WELCOME TO THE D.C. METRO AREA ODUBHAIN!! Be prepared to sit in traffic!!! While mostly urban and suburban, there are some great forest parks in the area, that you will find lovely!! There are some great museums and live music too!! I just moved out of the metro area, and down to Fredericksburg (from Alexandria). I prefer it a lot. I adore historic downtown areas!

[EntwinedScylla]

I'm not painting a division between orgiastic and ecstatic, clearly an orgy is an ecstatic experience, but ecstasy doesn't have to involve partner-swapping.

One of the points of contention I've always had is that I cannot recall ever seeing "orgies" at the "sabbat" described as involving partner-swapping. Plenty of sex, but I have never read anything which suggested that the sex was any more free-flowing than what you might find after a night of excessive drinking at a club.

I would certainly call any grouping of people, whether involved in monogamous pairings or not, having sex in a communal setting as "orgiastic". But perhaps that's to do with social conditioning.

[Tom Terrific]

One of the points of contention I've always had is that I cannot recall ever seeing "orgies" at the "sabbat" described as involving partner-swapping. Plenty of sex, but I have never read anything which suggested that the sex was any more free-flowing than what you might find after a night of excessive drinking at a club.

This may be due to enculturation. We grew up in a culture in which the paradigm of sexual exclusivity was seared into our consciousnesses from the beginning of our lives. I don't despise sexual exclusivity; I believe it can be a very powerful spiritual discipline. I also believe that sex, by its very nature, is very powerful, and it is better to lock it into a sexually exclusive relationship than to let it degenerate into pornographic squalor.

But these are not the only alternatives. An orgy under the influence of the divine would be a ritual of transcending personal boundaries, of entering into the divine consciousness in which all things are One and yet each is appreciated for itself. I believe that is the purpose of sexual celebration in Witchcraft. In such a ritual, as in the Great Rite, it doesn't intrinsically matter who one's partners are.

Group sexual worship seems to have occurred in more than one ancient culture. I know it can be debased; but that doesn't mean it has to be.

[EntwinedScylla]

Group sexual worship seems to have occurred in more than one ancient culture. I know it can be debased; but that doesn't mean it has to be.

Make no mistake, I see nothing wrong with any age-of-consent-or-over sexual expression done willingly and safely. I see no reason that it can't be worship (and no reason that it -has- to be).

I was merely pointing out that the idea of partner-swapping is not one I gleaned from any of the texts/accounts I've come across. I imagine there would've been -some- of said activities (because as stated, people to the same thing after drinking in this day and age), but I have no reason to think that it would've been "across the board".

Like anything, I'm sure there were free-swinging orgies, and "public displays", and that alone would've been enough to send The Church scampering after them. But not -every- person has it in them to do these things. And I doubt that a witch-cult would've survived by turning those folks away (bitterness loosens lips), or by forcing them into acts against their will (see above).

[ffetcher]

I've been away, so missed the end of this thread, but I thought I'd just sum up my views on what was posted after I went.

I don't have a problem with partner-swapping or swinging if that's someone's preference, although it's not my thing. In fact I wrote a series of short stories years ago where swapping was part of the initiation. I simply can't find much evidence for it in historical descriptions of Western systems, nor can I make a guess as to the veracity of somewhat salacious Western descriptions of Eastern systems.

When earlier I was quibbling with the use of 'orgy', that may be my background, because for me the term applies to group sex including one or both of those two elements. That's the only reason that I was differentiating between 'orgiastic' and 'ecstatic', so if your definition of 'orgy' doesn't need to include swapping or swinging, then I'm fine with that. My interpretation of the 'Benevento' from Leland's 'Aradia' is that it doesn't include those elements, though I'd have to say, perhaps somewhat controversially, that there's no way of assessing the veracity of that description either.

There are a small group of Western system descriptions that can be interpreted as swapping, but they're all from a small area of the Rhineland and span no more than fifty years. Even there, it's not clear-cut and in any case it's most likely that at least two of those are trumped up, so in fact they may all be fiction.

blessings
ffetcher