Religious education

[widukind]

Hi All!

I was wondering... what do you think about religious education? I personally think too little is taught about Pagan religions, because of fright or ignorance, or whatever... I personally feel I would have liked to receive information in high school about Druids, Wiccans, Qabalists... etc.

For instance at our school they taught Protestant kids the Protestant ways, Catholic kids the Catholic, and Muslim kids Islam, but that was about it.

No Jehovah's Witness classes, nothing Pagan, nothing Hindu... :rolleyes: I feel it's discriminatory... what do you feel?

Brightest Blessings !

Widukind

[Maggie]

Originally posted by widukind
Hi All!

I was wondering... what do you think about religious education? I personally think too little is taught about Pagan religions, because of fright or ignorance, or whatever... I personally feel I would have liked to receive information in high school about Druids, Wiccans, Qabalists... etc.

For instance at our school they taught Protestant kids the Protestant ways, Catholic kids the Catholic, and Muslim kids Islam, but that was about it.

No Jehovah's Witness classes, nothing Pagan, nothing Hindu... :rolleyes: I feel it's discriminatory... what do you feel?

Brightest Blessings !

Widukind
I can't see public schools teaching formal religion classes at all, that would certainly cause an uproar! Some might have a comparative religions class perhaps, but I suspect there would be objections to that too. In addition, who would teach it? The major religions usually have some kind of formal accreditation that is accepted by at least a majority of those who belong to a particular religion, very few pagan religions do. And the sheer lack of pagan numbers would make it even harder to find someone willing to do so, even assuming s/he was qualified to do so..........

Regards,

Maggie

[widukind]

Hi!

I don't know if you're aware of this, but in schools all over Europe they DO teach religion.

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

[Maggie]

Originally posted by widukind
Hi!

I don't know if you're aware of this, but in schools all over Europe they DO teach religion.

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

Certainly--although my comments about who could teach paganism still apply. In the United States it is against the law to teach any religion in public schools.

Regards,

Maggie

[widukind]

hi :D !

How it works here, is Catholic religion is taught by Catholics, appointed by the Catholic Church, and they have to teach a common course, more or less... in Catholic schools, theses are priests and monks, mostly, who teach religion.

I think the same works for Protestant teachers, though I doubt they all have to be ministers.

Each religious class is focused of the 'doctrines' of one religion only, hence my posting this question initially.

Brightest Blessings !

Widukind

[bansidhe]

well, just to add confusion to it all, heres an australian view. i go to a private school , and the vast majority of private schools are christian based in one way or another. for example, my first australian high school was anglican, and this one's luthern. up until the last year of school, all the religion classes are christian studies, but in the last year, we do comparative religions, although these are mainly hinduism and islam, i know of a student last year who chose to do her assignment on wicca. she got a pretty bad grade for it and she was told that it had to have been on a 'valid religion', which apparently wicca isnt. im not even wiccan anfd i figure thats bad. in tafe tho (sort of a technical university), there is a comparative religions course where paganism, especially celtic paganism, is the major component. in the public schools, there is no formal religious classes, probably cos no one would go to them anyway :D . well, sorry if i bored you guys, but there you go ! :)
blessings, bans.

[widukind]

Hi Bans !

I didn't find your post boring at all, but hey! ;) I really find it a shame we're taught so little about "other people's" philosophies, because usually they tend to seem more interesting than your own, and I really feel it broadens your perspective and turns you into a better person when you learn about other cultures and religions... I love 'em all.

BB,

Widukind

[Daniel]

Despite what the Supreme Court has had to say on the matter, it is not my belief that it is illegal for public schools to teach classes about religion. I believe it is illegal for government to establish a religion, or to restrict the free practice thereof. To insist that teaching is establishing, however, is to suggest that teaching about slavery in the classroom is to establish it as well.

Regardless, I also believe that it is not the place of a public school to teach about religion. I believe it would be advantageous for them to have an array of resources in their libraries for students to explore, but the actual teaching aspect has to be left to parents, whose responsibility it is to rear their children and turn them into respectable members of society.

The very nature of pagan religions makes the task of teaching them in a public school that much harder. After all, if you get five pagans in one room and ask them about what form the Divine takes, it is highly likely that you will get five distinctly different answers. The result, therefore, is that it is difficult to decide what should be taught to begin with, even with a pagan at the wheel.

It is my firm belief that there isn't a single person on the planet who wouldn't benefit from learning about and coming to understand the religious choices of others (including the lack thereof). In many cases, it would be beneficial for them to learn more about their own choice (or lack thereof). Those who would attempt to convert others would certainly gain a more solid footing with an understanding of the values of their targtet, rather than being disturbed by something they don't understand. Those who are facing a conversion attempt would certainly gain an appreciation for the efforts of the converter, rather than simply assuming they are being harassed or even persecuted.

I know I have.

In both cases, a more lively debate develops, thus enriching everyone involved.

Perhaps, rather than weighing the question of classroom-level religious education, we could all consider a model similar to that of the Boy Scouts. The career of every Eagle Scout hopeful culminates, after a broad education and a lot of preparation, with a community service project. It's designed to show what the scout has learned, and how they've grown within the organization. Perhaps high schools could require a research project on the topic of religion, requiring only professional presentation and insightful writing rather than the drawing of a particular ("acceptable") conclusion.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Daniel
Despite what the Supreme Court has had to say on the matter, it is not my belief that it is illegal for public schools to teach classes about religion. I believe it is illegal for government to establish a religion, or to restrict the free practice thereof. To insist that teaching is establishing, however, is to suggest that teaching about slavery in the classroom is to establish it as well.

Religion can be taught in the public schools, but *how* to do this has been the sticking point. Both comparative religion classes and using the Bible in English survey courses have been held to be legal. The religion classes described by Widukid would be illegal here though, I think.


Regardless, I also believe that it is not the place of a public school to teach about religion. I believe it would be advantageous for them to have an array of resources in their libraries for students to explore, but the actual teaching aspect has to be left to parents, whose responsibility it is to rear their children and turn them into respectable members of society.

Yeah--this has been the hot point between those who believe that bringing religion back into the schools will solve some of the problems in our schools and those who believe that the parents are the ones to do that teaching.


The very nature of pagan religions makes the task of teaching them in a public school that much harder. After all, if you get five pagans in one room and ask them about what form the Divine takes, it is highly likely that you will get five distinctly different answers. The result, therefore, is that it is difficult to decide what should be taught to begin with, even with a pagan at the wheel.

This is what I was referring to in my answer to Widukid. Who is going to certify the pagan teachers, and what pagan path would be acceptable as a teacher of 'paganism'? It's bad enough among the mainstream religions and currently paganism is even worse.


It is my firm belief that there isn't a single person on the planet who wouldn't benefit from learning about and coming to understand the religious choices of others (including the lack thereof). In many cases, it would be beneficial for them to learn more about their own choice (or lack thereof). Those who would attempt to convert others would certainly gain a more solid footing with an understanding of the values of their targtet, rather than being disturbed by something they don't understand. Those who are facing a conversion attempt would certainly gain an appreciation for the efforts of the converter, rather than simply assuming they are being harassed or even persecuted.

Too much common sense! :D


Perhaps, rather than weighing the question of classroom-level religious education, we could all consider a model similar to that of the Boy Scouts. The career of every Eagle Scout hopeful culminates, after a broad education and a lot of preparation, with a community service project.

I'd be satisfied at this point with requiring some kind of public service for each graduate. The requirements for an IB diploma do require this, and some colleges are beginning to--I think this is something that would be worthwhile for everyone to do and a way for everyone, regardless of their religion, to put that religion into service to the community.



Perhaps high schools could require a research project on the topic of religion, requiring only professional presentation and insightful writing rather than the drawing of a particular ("acceptable") conclusion.

The problem here is whether or not parents would allow their children to research a religion not their own, or even to allow 'insightful' writing on their own religion. I'm rather wary about either situation here in my community.........

Regards,

Maggie

[Daniel]

Originally posted by Maggie

Religion can be taught in the public schools, but *how* to do this has been the sticking point. Both comparative religion classes and using the Bible in English survey courses have been held to be legal. The religion classes described by Widukid would be illegal here though, I think.


I understand the entire situation with the Lemon test, which pretty much dictates the circumstances under which religion can be intruduced to the modern public school environment. As I've said before, I don't think that the circumstances under which a religion class can be legally taught make much sense, given the wording of the Constitution, but previous justices of the Supreme Court disagree for whatever reason.



This is what I was referring to in my answer to Widukid. Who is going to certify the pagan teachers, and what pagan path would be acceptable as a teacher of 'paganism'? It's bad enough among the mainstream religions and currently paganism is even worse.


The strength of the pagan world is its lack of organization, the fact that it doesn't need to meet under a particular roof on a particular day. In the days when "perfect love and perfect trust" meant the difference between life and death, when a single member of an active circle could sell out the lives of his or her fellow practitioners, this was a good thing. It made it harder to crush the various pagan faiths, even though it seems to have only delayed the inevitable.

This is also it's greatest weakness, given the lack of heirarchy or standard by which practices and actions can be judged. Sure, there's that law or this rede, but I've noticed that it opens more gaps than it stops. I have also heard of people having catfights over who has read the oldest book. Anybody with a smidgeon of common sense knows that such is not a real standard, especially not among Druids, for whom the persuit of historical remnants is more of a community-wide quest than it is a pissing contest.

In the end, I think the best the pagan community can hope to do, when it comes to using public schools to expose kids to a broader range of beliefs than might be found in the home, is to insist that the school library invest in books on the subject, to facilitate independant research. As far as I'm concerend school boards and administrations take far too many books out of libraries as it is.



I'd be satisfied at this point with requiring some kind of public service for each graduate. The requirements for an IB diploma do require this, and some colleges are beginning to--I think this is something that would be worthwhile for everyone to do and a way for everyone, regardless of their religion, to put that religion into service to the community.


Never was truer a word said. I can't think of a single religious affiliation on the planet that could strongly object to compelling young people to better the community in which they live.



The problem here is whether or not parents would allow their children to research a religion not their own, or even to allow 'insightful' writing on their own religion. I'm rather wary about either situation here in my community.........


The thing that parents need to realize is that, while school isn't there to subvert family values and the like, it is there to expose young people to things they don't get exposure to at home. If moms and dads everywhere spent 8 hours a day educating their kids in the subjects of math, science, art, social studies, and so on, there wouldn't be a need for school to begin with.

The same thing's been said about the spending of student activity fees at public and private universities -- you can't make something go away just because you don't like it, not in an educational setting. The environment is about learning and growing, not about filtration and isolation.

[widukind]

Good day!

I like the IB community service idea, too, but I think it might not be such a bad idea NOT to teach religion in public schools, when I give it a second thought.

For example, the school I'm in. I've mentioned it before. To recapitulate: there's a protestant, a catholic, an islam and an ethics class. The people who do not adhere any religion or do not want to learn anything about religion take the ethics class.
Our school (a European School, for those who are familiar with the term) is supposed to be one without any racism or biased views. We have this beautiful bronze plaque in the mess hall, which says 'School without racism', with on it a black and white kid holding hands. I will have you know, one of the language sections in our school immediately stole it, after yet another section had scratched out the black kid as a means of jocularity.

This goes to show there are also problems with between the ethics class' pupils and the religion classes' pupils. I will have you all know the person who teaches ethics has very biased views. He is totally ignorant of Pagans, he doesn't even know they still exist, and even believes all Christians go to church every sunday and believe in the words of the Bible literally, in the devil and in hell. He more or less molds the minds of his pupils to reflect his own views towards religion. The man is a socialist, and here in Belgium, the first socialists were also very firmly against religion and the church. He is one of those socialists, and manages very poorly to conceal his views.

So we have a situation on our hands where te religious students ( I believe they are ten in total ) are faced with an angry mob in discussions, a mob consisting of a little less than fourty anti-religious atheists.

This would not be so bad if we could avoid these discussions, but we have a philosophy class, and guess who teaches that one? Indeed, the same teacher.

After reading this example, you might wonder why I still manage to believe religious classes might benefit pupils... I'm still in doubt about whether it would be a good idea or not... you tell me.

Brightest Blessings,

Widukind

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Daniel


I understand the entire situation with the Lemon test, which pretty much dictates the circumstances under which religion can be intruduced to the modern public school environment. As I've said before, I don't think that the circumstances under which a religion class can be legally taught make much sense, given the wording of the Constitution, but previous justices of the Supreme Court disagree for whatever reason.

In practice I think the situation hinges on 'voluntary' as opposed to 'required'. Both of my children went through the public schools here--my daughter belonged to a Christian club that met at the school under the same basis as any other. The baccalaureate for her graduation was held at a church with a rabbi, a priest, and a paster, the school orchestra played at it. BUT--once again voluntary. In practice also, I think that while a class on the 'mainstream' religions would be accepted, others would have a fight on their hands. As a matter of practicality school systems tend not to fight this battle--they have too many others already.


The strength of the pagan world is its lack of organization, the fact that it doesn't need to meet under a particular roof on a particular day. In the days when "perfect love and perfect trust" meant the difference between life and death, when a single member of an active circle could sell out the lives of his or her fellow practitioners, this was a good thing. It made it harder to crush the various pagan faiths, even though it seems to have only delayed the inevitable.

Um, yes and no. I consider myself a celtic pagan first and foremost, and for me there are no active circles, no Rede and there are particular days that should be celebrated. I do understand what you mean, but this particular arguement doesn't apply to me, or probably to many others.....



This is also it's greatest weakness, given the lack of heirarchy or standard by which practices and actions can be judged.

Lack of certification universally accepted. Someone who had graduated from a seminary and is ordained and accepted by the denomination they belong to as a pastor, priest, rabbi, mullah, whatever is also generally agreed to be a formal representative of that denomination and qualified to teach and lead it. There are very, very few such processes in practice among pagan religions.




I have also heard of people having catfights over who has read the oldest book. Anybody with a smidgeon of common sense knows that such is not a real standard, especially not among Druids, for whom the persuit of historical remnants is more of a community-wide quest than it is a pissing contest.

Druids, or any other pagans, are humans too. The behaviour and rhetoric among the pagan community isn't any different than among the various mainstream denominations. I'm always surprised when others are surprised that pagans behave like 'those people'. Druids are not immune to academic one-upmanship either, and a lot of the arguements over 'historical remnants' begin with who is the favored authority......



Regards,

Maggie

[Maggie]

Originally posted by widukind
Good day!


After reading this example, you might wonder why I still manage to believe religious classes might benefit pupils... I'm still in doubt about whether it would be a good idea or not... you tell me.

Brightest Blessings,

Widukind

My *opinion* is that a class in comparative religion and ethical philosophies (non-religious) would be a good idea for all schools. My opinion is also that it would be very hard to find good teachers for such classes because I suspect that while the teacher you mentioned may be an extreme example, I don't think his attitude is all that uncommon, and the religious teachers would simply be slanted the other way.

Regards,

Maggie

[sylphanie]

I graduated from a private, non-religious highschool in the US two years ago. All first-year students used the Bible in English class, which that year was a study of the basis of Western literature. We also were required to know most of the well-known Grecian myths and a few of the more commonly-known rituals and symbols. In later years, our history classes covered the histories and basic tenets of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Christianity. We were, as a group, probably more exposed than your typical highschool students.

Each class had about twelve students. The sound of twelve people shouting (sometimes thirteen, if the teacher got involved enough) is extremely loud. These classes were discussion-oriented, true, but even now that I've gone to college and have sat in huge lectures, I've noticed that the size of the class doesn't make discussion go away when the students are sufficiently excited.

Teaching religion in schools is a very tricky subject. The only way it can be done is as an academic pursuit, emphasizing something like the history or the cultural implications of the religion. Even then, people get angry and hurt and frustrated. After all, many of the more "popular" religions are just as fragmented in beliefs as "paganism." I've never been able to get two pagans to agree any more or less than I've been able to get two Methodists or two Orthodox Jews to agree.

In my experience, most people who are even slightly interested in other religions will study them on their own, without the need of classes. Those who don't want to know, or don't care, won't really get much out of the class, anyway - you can get an A in the class and still not walk away with anything. Just having resources available is the best option, IMOSHO.

~Sylph

[widukind]

Originally posted by sylphanie
I've never been able to get two pagans to agree any more or less than I've been able to get two Methodists or two Orthodox Jews to agree.

In my experience, most people who are even slightly interested in other religions will study them on their own, without the need of classes. Those who don't want to know, or don't care, won't really get much out of the class, anyway - you can get an A in the class and still not walk away with anything. Just having resources available is the best option, IMOSHO.

~Sylph

I s'pose ye're right... well put. However, don't you think there's a need for "basic knowledge", you know, the basic facts about things like art, music, and religion, too? In my respect, that's why I think they make the religion and philosophy classes in our school compulsory, to have at least a bit of knowledge about most subjects.

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

[sylphanie]

Originally posted by widukind

However, don't you think there's a need for "basic knowledge", you know, the basic facts about things like art, music, and religion, too?

In an ideal world, yes. Everybody would have a basic grasp on all aspects of life and scholarship and each would seek their own niche and specialize further in what interested them.

But for that, we'd have to have a homogenous culture; otherwise, nobody would agree on what 'the basics' were. What are the basics of a study of religion?

And, as much as we'd like young adults to know, there's only 12 or 13 years of schooling available before they're expected to perform as full adults. There's only so much information you can put into those years.

Walk in peace.

~Sylph

[widukind]

Right again! It might be utopic, but I still wanna believe in a better world. And you can't stop me. RAAAAHHH !! :crazy: :D

Brightest Blessings!

Widukind

[ladyrowan]

Was interested to read that it's against the law to teach religion in US schools.
Over here (England) it's against the law NOT to!

Religion played no part in my home life as a child, all i knew of it was what i was taught at school - christianity and the 'church of england' only. I didn't realise at the time that there were so many other religions, (except for catholicism because a friend of mine went to a catholic school)

Have just asked my 16 yr old son what religions he has been taught about at school and was told,
"none really, RE is just an excuse to muck about in class"
Nothing changes!! Haha

Blessings

ladyrowan