What turned me away from Christianity

[Initiate Steamcircle]

Okay, here goes...
Thsi is why I'm no longer a Christian. According to many Christians I know, a helpful, smart, sensible, all around good Hindu man is going to hell because he isn't a Christian. But, Timothy Mcveigh (I think that's how you spell it. The terrorist guy) will go to heaven because he believes and will be foriven. This totally upset me, and ruptured my religious view. I switched over to Wiccan, because I found it more acceptable to my views. What are your views on this?

[Rain Gnosis]

My view is that if you want to understand Christianity you're better to talk to Christian authorities, go to church, and do some research. What's taught in Sunday school hardly touches the surface.

Let me amend to this - My opinion is much of what we have been taught as Christian has been interpreted by the wrong people to achieve their own ends. "Donate to your church and repent and you can go to Heaven, otherwise eternity in Hell". I'd imagine Christ would have a very interesting view of what's presumed to be Christianity today. That's why many people don't even use the term Christianity for it anymore.

Danustouch probably would have a more educated opinion, and EasternPriest unfortunately isn't around as our resident Christian however his opinion would be excellent here as well.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Without taking this thread into Christian bashing, which, aside from being totally unfair, is completely against the rules of MW, I must say that it's unfortunate that the fundamentalist, dogmatic Christians are the vocal minority that get all the press. People who say things like this:


"If you are a [born-again] Christian, you will go to heaven; If you're following another religion, then by default you will go to Hell." Radio program "Life on the Edge," sponsored by Focus on the Family, and directed to teens, 2001-MAY-5.

There are certainly plenty of Christians out there who do not believe that, and are accepting of other religions, and who believe that Timothy McVeigh will go to hell no matter what.

Obviously, your reasons for changing belief systems are entirely your own, and your prerogative. And I know that there are many pagans who left Christianity for the same or similar reasons. But I think it's important not to tar all Christians with the same brush.

[Lucidia]

not all christians are the same. each sect of christianity is different, follows a different interpretation of the bible, some even use additional texts.

the bible is a very old book, and has been translated a billion times, and we have no idea what half the original texts even realy say.

there are a LOT of good things in the bible. there are plenty of moral guidlines that are reasonable within it's pages, and i have lots of friends that follow some sort of christian belief, and they accept me and dont' tell me that i'm going to hell or whatever.

i left a specific SECT of christianity because of their unbearable restrictions and isolationist views. but i won't even mention them because then we'll get into a huge argument over that particular christian sect when the point was, why leave christianity.

i would leave ANY religion for the simple reason of no longer feeling a connection to it's path. it's quite understandable that some people maybe ENJOY being christian. even those of them that find their opinion to be closeminded, i think as long as they are not hurting others or themselves, it is their choice to hold themselves back from learning and accepting others.

that's about it for me.

[Danustouch]

Hmm..this is a tough subject for me to approach, without coming across as bashing Christianity. But I'm going to attempt it, with a prior disclaimer...I am not "Against" Christianity by any means. However, I do understand what Initiate means. I have had the same questions, and they too are what made me "Drift away" from Christianity, and find my own path.

From the Christian Standpoint, the ONLY thing that can "Save" a person, from eternal punishment (due to original sin, and the sins that we each engage in throughout life) is Belief in Jesus Christ. First and Foremost, Christians believe that there is no man who has not sinned (or fallen short of God). Therefore, each human being, despite how good they might appear, has sinned. "Goodness" and "Virtue" within Christianity are so clearly outlined, that I would hesitate to say that no human being on the face of the earth, can honestly say that they have not sinned in some way, at some time (By Christian Standards). Thus, they stand in need of forgiveness. Why does God not automatically forgive everybody, whether or not they truly believe in him? This is the essential issue which I think many people disagree with in christianity, and thus choose other paths. Within Christianity, it is not your right actions which will get you into heaven, it is your ATTITUDE of Faith in God, Reliance upon him, Humility in front of him, Realizing his Grace, and Needing a relationship with him. If you sin, and do not seek forgiveness, Christianity would state that you are not being humble, realizing your need for grace, and your relationship with God. The act of sin, puts a gap between you and God, because it is a deliberate act of rebelliousness to Gods wishes. Think about this example. Your parents say that you cannot go to such and such a party. You attend that party anyway. Knowing that they dissapprove. In your mind, you weren't doing anything wrong. At the party you neither had sex, did drugs, smoked, drank, or anything of the sort. In fact, you were even back in time for curfew. But..you deliberately went against your parents wishes anyway. The problem is, that you might not see the reason that your parents didn't want you to go. You might not understand the reason. So you took it upon yourself to make a judgement here, of what was right, and what was wrong for you to do. You "sinned" against your parents, by not trusting that THEY knew what was right and wrong for you. You put your faith in yourself, in your own ability to judge, rather than in theirs.

The Christian standpoint, as I understand it, is that God is all wise, and all knowing. Thus, he knows things that we may not know. Our job then, is to TRUST God to know what is best for us. When we do not act in accordance to His wishes, we are violating the trust. The relationship, and the faith. We are saying "I don't need God to tell me what to do, I know what is better for me, better than he does". It is defiance, it is self glorification. It is conceit. It is believing that you are above God, and thus able to judge right from wrong for your own life, better than he could. It is therefore, putting yourself above and before God, who is the Creator of the World, all wise, all knowing, all powerful, and omnipotent.

That's my understanding of the Christian belief on this subject, at least. I don't happen to AGREE with it, it is not my worldview at all. But..that is what I believe their worldview is, and how it influences their opinion on Needing Belief in Christ, to be forgiven.

[Danustouch]

Note on above post- When I say Christianity, I should clarify that what I posted, was from a "majority" view of Christianity. As in, what the majority of Christian Denominations believe, and what the Majority of Clergy are taught, and teach.

[Danustouch]

And looking back at the original post, I felt the need to address the second half of the issue...which is why people like timothy mcveigh can be forgiven......

The Bible states that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, will be saved. Of course, this cannot just be by word, but also by deed. So if Timothy McVeigh, honestly repents for his actions, by both word, AND deed (he turns away from the sin, tries to make restitution, etc) then he will be forgiven.

Within Christianity, there is no weighing of sin. (this was another issue that I couldn't come to terms with). Meaning, one sin is seen as just as grave as the other. Because it is not the ACTION which God Punishes, but the "Attitude" which causes the Sin. That is what God Punishes. The Bible also teaches that if you THINK about sinning, you've already committed the sin, in your mind. This reinforces the idea, that it is the attitude of rebelliousness which causes sin, that causes one to be punished for it. If one changes the attitude which caused the sin...i.e, rebelliousness, and seeks to come back into a true relationship with God, they will be saved, according to Christian belief.

Again..not a belief I agree with, or am comfortable with. But a belief which the majority of Christian Scholars Concur with.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Thanks for the clarification, Danustouch. In my opinion, the problem with taking that belief system as read (and many progressive Christians adapt those beliefs to make them less strict) is that it's too simplistic.

This system of rules (or sins) does not take into account the vast and complicated situations of life, like the situation you present about the child at the party. Or even worse, how does one honor and obey one's mother and father in a situation regarding child abuse?

It comes down to the famous psychological test regarding higher reasoning and ethics: Would you steal medicine for a family member if neither of you could afford it?

[Danustouch]

Oh, believe me Ben, I completely agree with you here. I've no wish to become a Christian Apologetisist :)

Most Pastors/Reverands/Priests and such have told me, that while reading the bible, it is unwise to base your beliefs and or judgements on just one or two verses within the Bible, but rather to read it as a whole. There are many verses which contradict eachother, for instance. The verse you mentioned, about honoring thy mother and father? And the problem of abuse? There are also verses in which Jesus says "If anyone hurt one of these little ones who believeth in me, they should rather have a millstone tied around their necks, and to be tossed into the ocean". So obviosly, there, you can see that Jesus does NOT condone abuse. In other words, the advice from a wise Christian leader, would be that Christians should read the entire bible, and carefully examine, and cross examine what they read, with other verses. To get the Entire picture. IMO, the problem comes from people zeroing in on one or two verses which support their own agenda. Or not studying the interpretations closely enough. It is easy to miss much in the Bible, if you are not prepared to look deep within it.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Originally posted by Danustouch

Most Pastors/Reverands/Priests and such have told me, that while reading the bible, it is unwise to base your beliefs and or judgements on just one or two verses within the Bible, but rather to read it as a whole.

Right. I've actually heard a number of Christian leaders say that the miracle of Jesus negates everything in the Old Testament, which in my opinion seems to be an easy way out of attempting to explain the discrepancies.

Out of curiosity, have you ever read any of the books by Bishop John Shelby Spong, like "Why Christianity Must Change Or Die"?

[Danustouch]

Nope...but I would probably be interested in it. I read one a while ago, called "Paul the Mythmaker" or something to that effect. (like i said, it was a while ago), which basically focused on the differences between Christs teachings, and the teachings of the apostle Paul.

Father Albert Nolan "Jesus before Christianity" is a really great book that explains Jesus in a historical/regional context, rather than a faith aspect.

[Semele]

All sins being equal has always been a tough one for me as well. Also the bit about the unpure thoughts are equal to the action...I never understood how we were to learn if we had to, in essence, punish ourselves for thoughts, even if we found the strength or whatever to avoid acting on the thoughts. Uh, does that make sense?

Initiate,

I wish you luck on your path and I hope that once the initial anger that lead you here has passed you will once again be comfortable enough to pick up the Bible. I feel that there is a lot to learn from the book....among others. I have to agree wholeheartedly with the others here in that Jesus would be pretty confused and disappointed to see the definitions of Christianity some folks live by. I have some pretty personal feelings about him and his work. I feel like he truly knew God and was very much a part of God, just as you and I are. However, I do not worship him nor do I feel that he was perfect. Even he asked at the end, "Why hast thou forsaken me father?"

[Ben Trismegistus]

Originally posted by Danustouch

Nope...but I would probably be interested in it.

I highly recommend it. His books are fascinating.

I agree with everything he says, with the following exception: My feeling is that if you have to change Christianity SO much in order to believe in it, why remain a Christian?

[Danustouch]

The book by Father Albert Nolan I reccomended is also an interesting read..highly reccomended. It explains alot of the biblical texts, from a perspective of the cultural/religious influences of the time. Separating the teachings of Christ, from some of the Dogma taught within the churh as a whole..very interesting. He caught major flack for it.

[Danustouch]

I do not worship him nor do I feel that he was perfect. Even he asked at the end, "Why hast thou forsaken me father?"

I agree fully. I believe he was a wonderful man, a prophet, a healer, a great political and spiritual activist, but not the one and Only son of God. I've often thought that the idea that Jesus was both "Fully man, and Fully God" was an interesting one..especially in light of many Pagan teachings, that devinity resides within each of us, and that we are a part of devinity. Some paths even teach that we ARE Gods. So..i've found that to be something interesting. On the other hand, it also explains why Jesus would call out to God in his last moments ..."Father, why hast thou forsaken me". He was not only God, He was Man. Man with the same doubts, fears, pains, etc. If anything, I think that Jesus teaches us much about how we should be as human beings. He is a wonderful example of how we should treat one another, etc, because he DOES appear so human in the Bible... and yet, so developed spiritually. Another thing that has always left me feeling a little unsettled, about his even being worshipped in general, is that in several places, he almost denounces his "Godhood" by saying things such as "Why do you call me Good? Noone is Good but God". There, he even seems to admit that he is NOT God, and Not to be worshipped, and held up as an ideal of God. That he was utterly human, just like us.

[Valnorran]

Originally posted by Danustouch

The Bible also teaches that if you THINK about sinning, you've already committed the sin, in your mind. This reinforces the idea, that it is the attitude of rebelliousness which causes sin, that causes one to be punished for it.

Oh, well. I guess I'm toast. I haven't done many bad things, but the s*** I've thought of... hooo-boy...

[Danustouch]

LOL....you and me both Valnorran.......wanna trade brains for a while??????? :devil: :lookaroun :muwaha: :seehearsp

[Semele]

Originally posted by Valnorran

Oh, well. I guess I'm toast. I haven't done many bad things, but the s*** I've thought of... hooo-boy...

LOL!! I knew you were a devil on the inside!

[Initiate Steamcircle]

I also felt that a male god was sexist. *no offense to christians* but in Wicca, there's a female and a male! So I found this more... for me.

[mol]

Originally posted by Initiate Steamcircle

I also felt that a male god was sexist. *no offense to christians* but in Wicca, there's a female and a male! So I found this more... for me.

Well, Catholicism remedies that by palcing a more focal emphasis on Mary. :) Sorry you had a rough go of it. Trust me, if Jesus were here today I am sure he would be turning a lot of tables over.

[Phoenix Blue]

Christ actually said that it was more important to judge a man by his deeds than his words--"By their deeds you shall know them." A rotten tree, he said, could not produce good fruit; nor could a good tree produce rotten fruit. He also said, in Matthew 8:11-14 (or thereabouts) that the doors of heaven would be open even to the pagans. Paul no doubt understood this as a license to convert Gentiles as well as Jews to Christianity, and by and large that's what it was; but there are a fair number of Pagans who do believe in Christ without subscribing to modern-day Christian dogma, who by Christ's own teaching would be eligible to join His kingdom as well.

What I find telling is that you did not share with us why you became Wiccan, but instead why you left Christianity. Wicca is not a refuge for people who don't want to be Christian anymore--you should seek to resolve your experiences with the religion you left behind before you seek to join another, which may or may not be a good fit for you.

[WillowSageheart]

I don't believe that the fundamentals of Christianity are any different from any other religion really. What gets me steamed is how many Christians tend to confuse the messenger with the diety.

The church that I grew up in was ministered by a man who was a child molester. Although I thought this was a secret, apparently everyone knew about it as he was also the chief of police and was quietly replaced because of his "indiscretions". Even though the entire town knew of this, still everyone in that congregation followed him blindly - not the bible.

Although I do not believe that this story in indicative of the Christian faith, that is the "reader's digest" version of what turned me away. Afterwards, I studied many religions and ended up forming my own personal beliefs. I didn't think there was a "place" that I fit in until I discovered Wicca.

[Danustouch]

What I find telling is that you did not share with us why you became Wiccan, but instead why you left Christianity. Wicca is not a refuge for people who don't want to be Christian anymore--you should seek to resolve your experiences with the religion you left behind before you seek to join another, which may or may not be a good fit for you.

PB- I came to Wicca after deciding that Christianity wasn't right for me, too. Just like Initiate. I didn't become Wiccan to "Get Away" from Christianity, and I don't think many people do. I don't know what Initiates exact experience was, of how he found Wicca, but for me, I had already turned away from Christianity. Not knowing a THING about Wicca. I spent a few months as sort of a "spiritual atheist" if there is such a thing. I knew something was out there, but I knew that for me, it wasn't Christianity. It wasn't Judaism either, or Islam, or Bhuddism either. I'd already looked into those religions, and found they weren't for me either. Then one day, I went into a new shop in my town, a metaphysical shop, just because the sign said "Incense, Tarot Readings, Angels" etc. Things I'd always had an interest in. I wasn't consciously thinking "oo...this must be a witchcraft shop". As I didn't know the first thing about Wicca as a religion. Once I got inside, I saw the pentacles, asked a few questions of the shopkeeper, she told me the meaning, then she told me a little about Wicca. I decided to "Research" it a little further..out of pure curiosity. I went home with a couple of books. DJ Conways Celtic Magick, and two Scott Cunningham books, and what I read, in the Scott Cunningham books, simply rang a chord of truth within me. After a little more research, I decided to become Wiccan, because it really did suit me. It fit in with my concepts of truth, reality, religion, etc.

I didnt' convert because of bitterness about Christianity. I converted because it seemed true to me. And I think many Wiccans who were formerly Christians, have had very similar experiences.

I think that it is an assumption to think that Initiate became Wiccan to "find refuge" from Christianity. I don't think he implied that anywhere in his original post. He merely brought up a discussion about the things within Christianity that didn't ring a chord of truth within him, for himself. I think that examining the things from our past, which didn't *feel right*, we can ultimately find out what DOES *feel right*. I don't think there is any harm in drawing a comparing or contrasting discussion... so ...let's ask Initiate....

Initiate, did you decide to become Wiccan WHILE you were a Christian? Did you feel alot of anger at Christianity when you made the choice? Why did you make the choice, was it because it was so differen't than Christianity, or is it because it seemed true to you, when you started to research it?

[Danustouch]

Trust me, if Jesus were here today I am sure he would be turning a lot of tables over.

LOL...me too Mol. I think of that often. I think that many of the fundamentalist preachers, such as Jerry Falwell, who are "Extremists" even in the eyes of many fundamentalist preachers, would be dealt with by Jesus today, as Jesus dealt with the Pharisee's back in biblical times. :)

There's a song by Dave Matthews called "The Christmas Song". Even if you arent' a Dave Matthews fan, I highly reccomend you give a listen to this song.

A brief quote from the lyrics:

"When Jesus Christ was nailed to a tree, he said "oh Daddy'o, I can see how it all soon will be. Came to shed a little light, on this darkening scene, instead I fear the blood of our childrens' all around. The blood of our childrens all around. His heart was full of love, love, love. Love, love..is all around".

Basically, the song talks about how dissappointed Christ would be, to see so much hate in the world today, and throughout history. Especially the crimes of hate perpetrated in his name (crusades, etc). That that is NOT what he came for, not what he was trying to teach, etc. First time I heard this song, I cried.

[Initiate Steamcircle]

Oops, sorry bout not explaining that...
See, originally, when I left Christianity, I studied Buddhism, I enjoyed it, but found that it's rules, teachings, were not fitting me. I became an agnostic for awhile. I searched more and found a religion where there was a male and female god, and I've read books on Witchcraft since I was 10 years old. I found this new religion and fell in love with it's teachings.

[Rain Gnosis]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
Wicca is not a refuge for people who don't want to be Christian anymore--you should seek to resolve your experiences with the religion you left behind before you seek to join another, which may or may not be a good fit for you.

:thumbsup: It amazes me how many Wiccans want to talk about Christianity and what's wrong with it. If a Christian was sitting here talking about what's wrong with Wicca, many folks would have a tantrum.

[Danustouch]

I'm not so sure that people are actually saying that the teachings of Christianity are wrong, as much as they are saying they are wrong FOR THEM. As in, they were points which prevented them from following the path as their own. Points they couldn't understand, or embrace. When I say that a certain issue in the Bible was something I could not follow or embrace for myself, I surely don't mean that it is wrong for others to follow, or embrace for themselves. It is simply something I couldn't understand, couldn't accept, or couldn't follow. Actually, I will be the FIRST to admit, that many of the reasons I couldn't follow Christianity, as my own path, were that I knew that I couldn't be a "Good" Christian. For instance, I happen to be a very sexual person. Christianity, believes strongly, that sex outside of marriage, is sinful (or at least, that is what is commonly taught). I struggled for a LONG time with this issue. I believed SOME of the teachings of Christ, believed he was a great guy, that I could speak to him, that he loved me. Etc. However, as for being an actual representative of Christ here on earth (which is supposed to be what a good christian is...someone who testifies in word and deed to the teachings of Christ) I fell horribly short. And yet, try as I could to correct my behavior, distract myself from it, conquer it, etc, I was horribly unhappy while doing so. I found myself battling against my inner self, on a constant basis, and quite literally despising myself for it. For HAVING the instincts I had within me, even if I didn't act on them. This, amongst many other issues, including those brought up previously in this thread, made me come to the decision that if I continued on as a Christian, I would have been a hypocrite of astronomical proportions. I wasn't being true to the Faith, nor was I being true to myself. I could never reconcile the Me I know I was, to the Me that Christianity taught me I should wish to be. So...mix it all together in one big bowl, and I came to a simple conclusion. Some people are meant to be Christian, Others, are not. I was amongs the *not* bunch. When I came to that realization, it was very difficult. Because all my life I had been taught that if you were amongst the *Not* bunch, you were going to hell. You were in some essence *Godless*. However, if I was indeed *Godless* Then how come I still felt so connected to *deity* without knowing a name for it? How come I still felt the urge to worship SOMETHING, or Talk with some greater power? How come I still knew that there was a guiding hand in the way that things happened in life? I knew then, that I needed to continue to search for SOMETHING that made sense to me. I searched, and then something just happened so randomly (That entry into that metaphysical shop) which ended my search. It *happened* naturally, of its own accord. I found it right for ME. Now..Chritianity? It was right for Martin Luther King, Right for Mother Theresa, Right for many saints, and angels, and good people all throughout history, who did not struggle so deeply with it, or who struggled, and somehow found a way to overcome it. But...I am quite sure that it wasn't right for me. My life hasn't improved a thousand fold since becoming Wiccan...but I can tell you that I at least have one less struggle in my life to contend with. That of wondering if I am "Sinful" etc.

[Valnorran]

Originally posted by Danustouch

LOL....you and me both Valnorran.......wanna trade brains for a while??????? :devil: :lookaroun :muwaha: :seehearsp

I don't know, dear. Some of the thoughts that go scampering through this mind...

Good Gods, you could end up voting for Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Valnorran]

Originally posted by Semele

LOL!! I knew you were a devil on the inside!

Well, only if you p** me off! I always figured if I got myself cast into hell my first plan would be escape. Failing that, I'd take over the joint (mutiny! That word has such a lovely ring to it!). If that didn't work I'd drive the devil so far up the freakin' wall he'd leave.

Seriously, though, if some Christians follow the doctrine that thoughts alone are sinful (never bought that "he who commits adultery in his heart is guilty of adultery" stuff. It is simple human nature to lust.) how do they apply that to someone like, say, Agatha Christie? The woman made herself famous by dreaming up the perfect crime, usually murder. I write fantasy which involves the heroin hacking the villain to death. By their standard, does that make me a murderer?

[Danustouch]

AKkkkkkkk...valnorran...keep your mind to yourself then! (I won't EVER vote for Bush. LOL).

All kidding aside, as per your Agatha Christie scenario...I don't know. I think the separation would be that Agatha is not actually picturing herself doing this crime, or contemplating doing this herself. So I don't think that is exactly what they are speaking about. I think it has more to do with the "Fantasizing" aspect....

"Oh..man..look at my next door neighbors wife, what I wish I could do to her..I can imagine.....ooo la la" type stuff.

Or...using your murder scenario...."That S.O.B, I'd like to wring his neck. In fact, I can almost FEEL my fingers wrapped around his throaght...ugh...if I could only get away with it...i'll tell ya!" that sort of thing.

There are a number of Christian Authors who write mystery novels, so I don't think that this quite is the thing that they are talking about. (A noteable author I can think of, is Frank. E. Perretti, "This Present Darkness" and "Piercing the Darkness" which are very upsetting books, as they weave a murder mystery around new age themes... a new age "cult" being the pepetrators of the murders, the books handle the story on two levels, what is going on in the world we perceive, and the "spiritual warfare" front as well. They upset me so much when I first read them, that I had nightmares for a week. As a Pagan, now adays, I wouldn't even pick them up as they are so filled with stereotypes, innaccuracies, and bias).

[Valnorran]

Originally posted by Danustouch

"Oh..man..look at my next door neighbors wife, what I wish I could do to her..I can imagine.....ooo la la" type stuff.

Or...using your murder scenario...."That S.O.B, I'd like to wring his neck. In fact, I can almost FEEL my fingers wrapped around his throaght...ugh...if I could only get away with it...i'll tell ya!" that sort of thing.


Well, crap. There goes my shot at salvation. I mean, the first one alone blows me out of the water. Good grief, do you know how many times in a single day I'm guilty of that one?

The second one isn't a daily occurance, but neither is it infrequent.

Man, am I glad I worship deities that, after making me human, allow me to actually be human. I never understood the appeal of a god that, after giving you all of these capabilities, forbids you to use any of them.

[mol]

Originally posted by Valnorran
Man, am I glad I worship deities that, after making me human, allow me to actually be human. I never understood the appeal of a god that, after giving you all of these capabilities, forbids you to use any of them.

Please elaborate on this, because I would like to know what you mean. From what Ive read the Bible doesnt really impose any rules which dont encompass a good moral standard.

[WillowSageheart]

Originally posted by mol

Please elaborate on this, because I would like to know what you mean. From what Ive read the Bible doesnt really impose any rules which dont encompass a good moral standard.

I think this is just another instance of the man or woman at the pulpit that interprets his/her own meaning and teaches that interpretation.

[mol]

Originally posted by WillowSageheart

I think this is just another instance of the man or woman at the pulpit that interprets his/her own meaning and teaches that interpretation.

Well, I will give you that. I never put much stock in preachers interpretations...I always opted for using my own brain.

[WillowSageheart]

Originally posted by mol

Well, I will give you that. I never put much stock in preachers interpretations...I always opted for using my own brain.

Me too. I guess that's why I could never quite fit into organized religion - no matter how hard I tried.

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol
From what Ive read the Bible doesnt really impose any rules which dont encompass a good moral standard.

Exactly..they try to force "good moral standards" on you. Why not allow us to use that free will they instilled in us?

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele

Exactly..they try to force "good moral standards" on you. Why not allow us to use that free will they instilled in us?

Who tried to force moral standards on you? I havent seen anyone try to enforce their moral standards on you lately.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Danustouch

I'm not so sure that people are actually saying that the teachings of Christianity are wrong, as much as they are saying they are wrong FOR THEM.

Bingo! Plus we aren't on a Christian board telling them they are wrong..we are here expressing different personal experiences that have shaped our future.

[Phoenix Blue]

Who tried to force moral standards on you? I havent seen anyone try to enforce their moral standards on you lately.

Get a room! :p

[mol]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue

Get a room! :p

Okie dokie! :heartthro :bigredgri

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol

Who tried to force moral standards on you? I havent seen anyone try to enforce their moral standards on you lately.

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.

"Men use blasphemy to stress their point of action, thoughts and desires. They abuse the Name of God by connecting Him in a damned way or in an arrogant, sarcastic, facetious manner. Men very often swear against God to impress another man with their false strength. Men abuse the Name of God to eliminate having to face in a dignified way, truth. Also, when a man is suspicious of his own lack of integrity, stability, masculinity, he abuses God, for the cowardice within himself tells him he will not be struck down immediately."

Cursing - Blasphemy - Satanism - Pride - Lack of Self-discipline - Abusive discrediting to another man


I am thinking this should be my choice.

[Rain Gnosis]

Originally posted by Semele I am thinking this should be my choice.

*lost* What are you quoting from?

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
I am thinking this should be my choice.

Is the "Lord" in question your God? If not, then dont worry about it. The 10 Commandments are the guidelines that are really ingrained in most people. Divined by Moses, or so the story goes, for God himself...but anyone could have come up with the same laws in due time.

Basically, I take the commandment in question to mean: Respect Your God.

Again, I have never taken the Bible literally and so much has been lost in translations that its hard to even try to interpret it. All in my opinion.

[Valnorran]

Originally posted by mol

Please elaborate on this, because I would like to know what you mean. From what Ive read the Bible doesnt really impose any rules which dont encompass a good moral standard.

Well, I can't recall the exact wording but the notion that "If a man commits adultery in his heart, he is guilty of adultery" is one I take issue with. I'm happily married, but I still lust after women who are not my wife. Why? Because I'm a man. I like women. Nature designed me to be on the constant look out for prospective mates. Refusing to acknowledge that aspect of myself is, IMO, psychologically unhealthy. As long as I don't act on those impulses, what's the harm? I swore to foresake all others and I've kept that promise, but I see no reason why I can't enjoy the view and wonder what it would be like with someone else. I'm married, not dead. I feel the same way about the whole "turn the other cheek" business. I don't go looking for trouble. If I see trouble coming, I usually try to get out of its way, but if it corners me, I'm certainly not going to just let it have its way with me. I have extreme dislike for some people, but as long as I don't act on those feelings or obssess over them, I really don't see the problem. It just seems like certain aspects or interpretations of scripture involve denying basic human nature. I say those certain thoughts or feelings, in and of themselves, don't really mean much. It's when a person lets those feelings control him that problems arise.

However, much of this probably arises from what people think Jesus said rather than what he actually said.

[Danustouch]

However, much of this probably arises from what people think Jesus said rather than what he actually said.

Funny thing about that. Jesus really doesn't touch much on the subject of sin, except to point out the hypocrisy of the religiously governing body of the time (The Pharisee's). When asked what the Greatest commandment was, he said (paraphrased, as my memory is faulty) : Love THY God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself, and then goes on to say..."and love thy enemy...." or something to that effect. The Pharisee's of Jesus day had all sorts of "rules" and commandments that went above and beyond the actual old testament scriptures. Rules that kept the poorer classes excluded from communion with Devinity. Rules that made handicapped, and infirmed, pariah. Rules that discouraged freedom of thought. Jesus life was built around dispelling the myths that the Pharisee's tried to pass off as law. Built around an ALL inclusive theory of mans (and womans) relationship to the devine. In the end, as I see it, the Apostle Paul had far more to do with the Current Christian perspectives on what is sin, and what is not, then Jesus ever did.

[Valnorran]

Originally posted by Danustouch
In the end, as I see it, the Apostle Paul had far more to do with the Current Christian perspectives on what is sin, and what is not, then Jesus ever did.

Yeah, that's been a niggling little suspicion I've had for some time, now.

[mol]

Among others...you can also thank generations of stale interpretation for todays concepts of sin, salvation, redemption, etc.

[Valnorran]

Seems like another candidate for serious revision of Jusus' teachings was Augustine. At least, I think that's who. Was he the one who wrote his "Confessions"? Seems like I've heard he's who we have to thank for the neurotic attitudes towards sex.

[Semele]

Originally posted by mol

Is the "Lord" in question your God? If not, then dont worry about it. The 10 Commandments are the guidelines that are really ingrained in most people. Divined by Moses, or so the story goes, for God himself...but anyone could have come up with the same laws in due time.

Doesn't matter if it defines my Lord or yours...the point I was tryint to make is that if I were to follow Christian doctrine there are certain aspects that are expected to be followed. If I went to church every sunday I guarantee you the commandments and other rules would very much be told to me via the message in the preachers sermon and the message that the sunday school teacher is bringing. Only forced down my throat if I choose to sit there, but it is feed to you none the less, if you are hungry enough to accept it, rather than research for yourself.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by mol

The 10 Commandments are the guidelines that are really ingrained in most people. Divined by Moses, or so the story goes, for God himself...but anyone could have come up with the same laws in due time.

I agree, and if you compare these commandments to the basic teachings of many other religions, they are strikingly similar.


Basically, I take the commandment in question to mean: Respect Your God.

I also think the definition of respect in the context of this commandment is that one should not throw around the name of your god carelessly; invoking deity when you do not truly intend to is a form of disrespect. In this part of the country, the phrase "God damn" very seriously shocks and offends, probably because one is cursing someone or something in the literal sense.


Again, I have never taken the Bible literally and so much has been lost in translations that its hard to even try to interpret it. All in my opinion.

This is one of the major reasons I turned from Christianity. The two most common and blatant I've seen are the condemnation of homosexuals because "God hates them" and the so-called dress code for females. Every day, I see members of the churches who follow this doctrine......they may have long hair, wear skirts and forego the jewelry and makeup but frequently appear more seductive than the rest of us.

Again, if you compare the words of Jesus to the words of Buddha, Krishna, etc., you'll find that they are basically the same presented in a different manner. "An' It Harm None" could easily be translated to "Love One Another."

Lately I've been reflecting on my attitude toward Christianity and I've realized that it's not the doctrine itself that I'm opposed to. What turned me away was the hypocrisy that I've so consistently seen, which has been especially pronounced in my perception since I moved to the bible belt. While I know and respect a handful of exemplary Christians, I've seen too many who make a show out of attending church and act like everyone else the rest of the week. For instance, at my last job the group of women who held a weekly bible study at work were the most vicious, backstabbing gossips in our division. I've recently realized that it's not Christianity that has turned me off, it's a certain type of person connected with it. I know many Pagans who are far better Christians than most of the "Christians" that I know.

[Danustouch]

Again, if you compare the words of Jesus to the words of Buddha, Krishna, etc., you'll find that they are basically the same presented in a different manner. "An' It Harm None" could easily be translated to "Love One Another."

I agree. And if all religions could be boiled down to this one common sentiment, the world would be a far greater place. But, what get's us as a human race in trouble, I believe, is placing too great an emphasis on dogma's, and details, instead of focusing on such basic, core messages, as this. I can sit here all day long, and pick out things from the Bible that I had a problem following for one reason or another. And I can sit here and say that the individual rules, and guidelines within the Christian path are "preached" to such an extent that they erase individual thought, etc. But ...I also realize, that this isn't just a "Christian" thing.

I've met many Pagans, for instance, who get caught up in the "who is an elder" thing, the "What degree have you reached" ideal, the "If you set up your altar this way, you're wrong" thing, and the "Harm none means......." and the "How can you call yourself a Pagan if you eat meat" (fitting in with that harm none ideal often), or "How can you say that war is justified if......". In short, I think that people of all faiths, and spiritualities, get distracted by details. We get distracted by dogma's. We get caught up in details that we often devine ourselves, out of who know's what......reading into things that aren't necessarily written. Drawing our own conclusions, etc. I think that if I could erase all the dogma's, and all the details, of ALL religions, and make ONE central law for everyone to go bye, it would be "Thou Shalt Not Judge Others". and let that be it. Everything else, is subject to your own conscience.

I know just as many Pagans, who are quick to judge, as Christians. I know just as many Pagans, who are gossips. I don't seem to find quite as many people who are hypocritical, but that, I think is simply due to the "Undefined" nature of it. That there are no specific laws, outside of "Harm None" in most Pagan paths (or other similar theories in other Pagan Paths), which leaves so much open to interpretation, and I think that most of us realize this. It's very hard to be a "Hypocrite" when you don't have a million laws to live up to.

But..I hear ya, freyja. I can't say that I agree with everything the Bible says, because I don't. As you can tell by my posts, there are many things that are commonly taught within Christian Doctrine, which I simply cannot agree with, or follow for my own life. On the other hand, i've also come to realize that if many Christians I knew, were not as quick to judge, or condemn, or act in hypocritical manners (or rather what I PERCEIVED to be hypocritical, as I realize my perception isnt always the truth of the matter) I may have stayed with the path, longer. In my personal experience with Christianity, when I would just read the bible alone, and come to a part where it would say "thou shalt not do x, y, z" , if i didn't agree with it, I would just say.."Okay..well..that was fine for those times, or back then..but this is now, and I am me" and ignore it . However, the problem I encountered, was that others took it so very seriously, that I could never quite "live up to" the standards that they held. People saying..."Oh...you shouldn't do that, because God Hates...." or "Oh..you're not showing the fruits of the spirit". Or whatever. In my own belief, I loved God, I loved Jesus, and I was trying the best that I could, to be a "Good Christian", and to figure out what it all meant, and to put it into action. In short, following my own conscience. And yet, I was being called a Hypocrite (although very delicately) by my peers. I just found it very hard to constantly live up to the ideals that others had for me, that I did NOT feel in my own heart to be the ideals which were right for me. And rather than constantly trying to live up to those ideals, and fight with myself constantly over them, and devloping a huge self doubt complex, or feeling guilty over not being able to agree with the things I didn't agree with...feeling sinful, etc, that I should just realize that maybe, it just wasn't the path for me. And maybe there was something else out there, that was. :) Luckily, I found it :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Danustouch

..... And I can sit here and say that the individual rules, and guidelines within the Christian path are "preached" to such an extent that they erase individual thought, etc. But ...I also realize, that this isn't just a "Christian" thing.

I've met many Pagans, for instance, who get caught up in the "who is an elder" thing, the "What degree have you reached" ideal, the "If you set up your altar this way, you're wrong" thing, and the "Harm none means......." and the "How can you call yourself a Pagan if you eat meat" (fitting in with that harm none ideal often), or "How can you say that war is justified if......". In short, I think that people of all faiths, and spiritualities, get distracted by details. We get distracted by dogma's. We get caught up in details that we often devine ourselves, out of who know's what......reading into things that aren't necessarily written. Drawing our own conclusions, etc. I think that if I could erase all the dogma's, and all the details, of ALL religions, and make ONE central law for everyone to go bye, it would be "Thou Shalt Not Judge Others". and let that be it. Everything else, is subject to your own conscience.

I know just as many Pagans, who are quick to judge, as Christians. I know just as many Pagans, who are gossips. I don't seem to find quite as many people who are hypocritical, but that, I think is simply due to the "Undefined" nature of it. That there are no specific laws, outside of "Harm None" in most Pagan paths (or other similar theories in other Pagan Paths), which leaves so much open to interpretation, and I think that most of us realize this. It's very hard to be a "Hypocrite" when you don't have a million laws to live up to.

But..I hear ya, freyja. I can't say that I agree with everything the Bible says, because I don't. As you can tell by my posts, there are many things that are commonly taught within Christian Doctrine, which I simply cannot agree with, or follow for my own life. On the other hand, i've also come to realize that if many Christians I knew, were not as quick to judge, or condemn, or act in hypocritical manners (or rather what I PERCEIVED to be hypocritical, as I realize my perception isnt always the truth of the matter) I may have stayed with the path, longer. In my personal experience with Christianity, ............. And maybe there was something else out there, that was. :) Luckily, I found it :)

:) I only knocked out some of your quote for the sake of space and I agree with all of your post, and you've been able to put my feelings about the issue into words. Yes, I also know pagans who are on the same level with the Christians who turn me off, and I distanced myself from their groups early on, especially after one particular person took the degree issue and attempted to slander and destroy one individual. It was so blatantly a personal vendetta issue and a number of people followed along and got caught up in it.

I like your point about our path having no specific laws, leaving so much up to interpretation ~ but when you look at the other paths, even though they have a lot more written down, it seems to be true for them also. Different religions have interpreted the bible to mean what they want it to mean for their own agendas in many cases.

Something that I found very interesting when I did study the bible was that the same scriptures had different meanings for me at different times depending on what was going on at the time, and I've found this to be true with some of the books I currently read and tapes that I have listened to.

I agree that if we would all realize that "there are many paths, all leading to the same God" and take it as part of that one law, there would be a lot less conflict.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Danustouch

And if all religions could be boiled down to this one common sentiment, the world would be a far greater place.

I agree, but I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon. Too many folks from all different religious backgrounds think that they are correct and all other religions are wrong. I often wonder if this superiority complex is what keeps the world from evolving as a whole. I think in the past we have been close to having a large population "get it" at once, but something occurs to shift the focus. For instance in the bible the story of the tower of Babel. It says that the people were going to build a tower to reach the heavens and that God created the different languages to confuse the people so that they couldn't communicate.

Now, literally I find tons of inaccuracies in this story, the languages date back to earlier times, and I don't really think that the almighty would be afraid of a tower reaching heaven. However, symbolicly I think it says a lot.

[Danustouch]

Yeah..this is a story i never really understood. If the story were real, why would God Care if his Creation were able to get closer to him, to talk to him, etc. Why would he wish to KEEP human beings from speaking to eachother, and communicating. I guess the story implies that he didn't want Man to have the knowledge that he did, being a "jealous" god and all. And that they weren't to have a Kingdom greater than his, etc. But..then in the New Testament, we read that we are all supposed to aspire to "Godliness", having been created in the image of God. That if we love our God, and Love our neighbor, and follow the teachings of Christ, and have faith, we can move mountains, we can know God......etc, etc. It just seems so confusing to me.

Actually, John has a theory on this, that the God of the old Testament, was Jehovah, and the God of the New Testament, Adonai. Adonai, I think was portrayed as "God the Father" Whereas Jehovah was more the wrathful, jealous God we read about in the Old Testament. Johns theory of Jehovah, of course, imo, is a little bit Bizzarre. He thinks Jehovah was a "Grey".......(an alien life form which has lost all ability for compassion, and feeling).

[Twig]

.......
According to many Christians I know, a helpful, smart, sensible, all around good Hindu man is going to hell because he isn't a Christian. But, Timothy Mcveigh (I think that's how you spell it. The terrorist guy) will go to heaven because he believes and will be foriven


I asked a noted and well published christian what he thought of people who had this kind of outlook on the religion some years back.

This was his response

[nomadicdragon]

Nothing turned me away from christianity. My parents are baptist missionaries.. but I never felt a connection. LIving under their house i respected their rules and beliefs but once i left home i explored my own... and i was led to witch craft... though i do find those christians that stuff everything down your throat annoying.

[redheadwitch]

actually there may be some archaeological evidence to the theory of the tower of babel. i saw some little diddy on a discovery channel or something...not that they are SURE, but it implied that there have been ruins found that seem to have been intended as a tower leading to the skies.

i don't remember if a reason was given for the "changing of languages" exactly, but if i remember, it sounded like there were different groups of people working on the tower to start with (let's say egyptians, nubians, slaves, etc) so they could have started OFF with different languages. that's all just a side note.

yay to danustouch. i think you're great anyway, but i especially like everything you have said here. a former christian myself, i still have respect for the bible in itself, and the ideas behind Jesus and the whole christian movement.
my problems lie with people interpreting scripture how they want it to be, being morally superior and judgemental, sharing their views to the point that one wants to take out a restraining order, and deciding that they know if you are going to hell or not.

myself? i was terribly adament, faithful and devoted to christianity for about 20 some years (give or take the non-talking stage of life) and finally gave up on it several years ago.
my still christian sister now finds every opportunity she can to witness to me.
this i don't understand.
if i read my bible, memorized verses, went to church, prayed, fasted, witnessed to strangers, went on missionary trips, obstained from sex and other moral taboos, for 20 some years...obviously i would understand what i was doing, right?
it's my choice.

but then when i make a decision to leave the church, all of a sudden she thinks i don't understand the bible. like i've gone all illiterate suddenly, and need someone to re-explain the gospel to me.

IT'S MY CHOICE! I'M AN ADULT!

the weird thing is that she never was very interested in my spirituality BEFORE, but now she thinks i'm going to hell!
(although the scriptures clearly state that nothing can tear you from god's hand once you have become a christian.)

sigh.
i'm interested in christianity and its beliefs.
and im interested in how it plays a part in my life today.

i'm grateful for this forum where i can share my thoughts and discuss these things without feeling i will have someone try to convert me to something.

sigh.
done.

[mol]

Originally posted by redheadwitch
but then when i make a decision to leave the church, all of a sudden she thinks i don't understand the bible. like i've gone all illiterate suddenly, and need someone to re-explain the gospel to me.

Well, you cant blame her. If she is like most of the spoonfed Christians out there then she has probably assumed that Satan has gotten to you. I dont mean that comment to offend any Christians out there, but when you take someone else's interpretations and believe it without weighing the value yourself...I call that spoonfed.

[Danustouch]

Completely agreed on that Mol.

I have a rather funny situation with my own parents, Redheadwitch. My parents are "Congregationalist" Christians. The Congregational denomination, is one of the more "leniant" of the denominations. When I was amongst them, there was a joke that they are "Gods Frozen Chosen". No "Allelujia Brothers" or "Amens" . Just very quiet, reserved services, where people sit hands folden in lap, while pastor gives a nice little sermon about being a good neighbor. No hell fire and brimstone. No talk of sin. Nothing of the sort. It was actually, pretty comfortable growing up in that church. Not an overload of dogma's, and doctrines, etc. In fact, the pastor for many years, was a chaplain for the Freemasons, kinda interesting. Anyway... When I was 12, I went through sort of a conversion experience, and became "Born Again" after attending a musical ministry at another church. My fervor, at that point, was very zealous. I became exceedingly preachy, and judgemental, and was QUITE convinced that because my parents hadn't been "born again" but rather grew UP in the congregational church, the religion being sort of an inheritance, that they would not be saved. Etc. I also was quick to point out their hypocrisy (dad smoking and cussing, both being predjudiced, etc) And it got to a point that my parents were being driven insane by my excessive fundamentalism. They thought I was a real radical, and it was driving them nuts.

I got older, became "Nazarene" went to college, looked around, said.."This ain't for me". Became atheist, at which point my parents simply said "Where did your fervor go? You mean we wasted all that tuition money?". And then, after a while, became Wiccan. When I "Came Out" to my parents, my dad said "you're taking the easy way out, you're walking away from God. That religon is bull****, You know there is only one true religion" etc. Mom's attitude was similar "If you want to keep practicing that religion, you won't do it under our roof. Give it up, or Get out" (I moved out).

Sometimes, I think to myself..."Man...some people you just can't please! They didn't like me when I was a Christian Zealot. And they HATE it now that I'm Wiccan..I can't WIN!".

And sometimes I think, i'm only getting my Karmic Return , for preaching so vehemently to them when I was a teen.

I do find it funny though. My mother was always the one back when I was a kid, who said..."You can't take everything the Bible says Literally". and she's also the one who said. "Take everything with a grain of salt, until it's proven to you". I begin to do just that, and all of a sudden...I'm the bad seed! LOL.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Semele

I agree, but I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon. Too many folks from all different religious backgrounds think that they are correct and all other religions are wrong. I often wonder if this superiority complex is what keeps the world from evolving as a whole. I think in the past we have been close to having a large population "get it" at once, but something occurs to shift the focus. For instance in the bible the story of the tower of Babel. It says that the people were going to build a tower to reach the heavens and that God created the different languages to confuse the people so that they couldn't communicate.

Now, literally I find tons of inaccuracies in this story, the languages date back to earlier times, and I don't really think that the almighty would be afraid of a tower reaching heaven. However, symbolicly I think it says a lot.

At 2:30 a.m. your post regarding this story reminds me a little too much of how things were working for the state and the agency that I am working for now. They do everything they can to keep employees from communicating and forming supportive relationships with each other to prevent them from having power as a group.

Interesting thought to ponder.