a question for the Christian and Jewish members of the forum

[mothwench]

what do you know about lilith, and if you do know anything, can you tell me what you were taught about her?
i read about her being the first wife of adam and that she was cast out of eden due to her naggin and stuff.
is that biblical lore, or pagan propaganda?
:spaceman:

[Marchosias]

Christians might also have something to say about Lilith. Try asking them, too.

[*GrumpButt*]

Not x-ian, but I thought that she was cast out b/c she wanted to ride on top, or something like that. lol

[mothwench]

Christians might also have something to say about Lilith. Try asking them, too.
do what????

[mol]

do what????
I think he is referring to the use of the x...you are, x'ing out Christ doing it in that way. *shrugs* some people dont like it...some dont care.

[Equinox]

Lilith is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Just my $0.02


-Equinox

[Muireannach]

I'm not christian either, but I do know a bit about her from my readings.

All I know about her is that she was Adams first wife (according to some Jewish texts) but also in some texts she appears, believe it or not, as the wife of Satan, go figure.

According to the Adam marriage theory she was created at the same time as Adam and out of the ground, thus, she beleived herself to be equal to him and challenged Adam's authority (you go girl!) upon her banishment from Eden Lilith became a leader of demons and snatched babies they say, leaving only the ones who wore an amulet with the names of the three angels. (Some types of judaism beleive her to be evil to children, thus, when a child is born they conduct a ritual to cast her out of the room)

In literature she later became the "dark feminine side." Some even tied her close to vampires which I think is more a creative move.

So really there are differences in her christian portrayal and that of the jewish portrayal.

[mothwench]

well, guess what kind of person i am?
really i had no idea, and if i see cards in shops saying *merry x-mas* then it can't be that big of a deal, can it?

[mol]

well, guess what kind of person i am?
really i had no idea, and if i see cards in shops saying *merry x-mas* then it can't be that big of a deal, can it?
To some people it is...

[Muireannach]

I worked with one woman who would flip out when we would label things "x-mas" it got so irritating that my boss told her she could go around and re-label everything if she wished, but if she didn't shut up and stop trying to convert everyone to her religion she could find another job, a month later she left.

But I personally think of the "x" as an abbreviation, in all my years at Catholic school in my youth they didn't mind....just one of those issues I guess.

[mothwench]

I'm not christian either, but I do know a bit about her from my readings.

All I know about her is that she was Adams first wife (according to some Jewish texts) but also in some texts she appears, believe it or not, as the wife of Satan, go figure.

////SNIP////

So really there are differences in her christian portrayal and that of the jewish portrayal.


M, thanks. methinks i need to read some jewish scripture. i will change the subject title to
*christian or jewish members* (and add the name of christ to appease the wrath of marchosias.)

[Cyberhawk]

Lilith is not found in the christian bible at all. (Not unless one looks for vague references to her - as I've just checked now) I never heard of her in church either. Most Christians I know wouldn't know who Lilith was.

All I do know is that according to some writes, and what little I've heard from here and there:
1) she was the first woman and was cast out because she wanted to be "on top", and she wasn't particularly yielding to Adam.
2) She is a demon according to Jewish / Hebrew lore
3) She is a vampire. (this one is questionable no doubt)

Can't say I know much at all about Lilith.


X-tian -- the first time I saw that here, I thought that was interesting way of refering to Christians. X-mas, X-tians...

[crashtime]

Wow, you learn something new everyday! I was Christian in my teens (had a big fundie phase) and I never have even heard of Lilith. I always thought that was a pretty name. I guess I wouldn't want to name my children after her. (no offense to those with children named lilith) ;)

[mothwench]

1) she was the first woman and was cast out because she wanted to be "on top", and she wasn't particularly yielding to Adam. ...

wut? literally? :lol: i thought whitedragon was joking...



X-tian -- the first time I saw that here, I thought that was interesting way of refering to Christians. X-mas, X-tians...

really? but it's on christmas cards, the media spells it that way, i thought it was perfectly acceptable. sorry, cyberhawk, i really didn't know.

[mothwench]

uh, mol. the subject title... i edited it, but it's still the same...:huh:
can you fix it plz?

edited to add: nice av. suits you, sir. ;) what's it mean?
tellmetellmetellmetellmetellmetellmetellme

[Cyberhawk]

X'mas I've seen, but not "X-tians". Don't worry about it, Mothwench, I wasn't offended. :)

[mothwench]

well, ok but regardless, i'd like the title changed so that any jewish members click on it as well, ya know? maybe i'll report my post, see if that works.

edited to add: :lol: damn, i can't report my own post. will someone else please do it?

[Marchosias]

M, thanks. methinks i need to read some jewish scripture. i will change the subject title to
*christian or jewish members* (and add the name of christ to appease the wrath of marchosias.)

Wrath? :lol: Whatever works. My point was, it is the Christian religion, not the x-tian. And while some may not care, there are just as many that do. It is just safer (and more respectful) to spell out their religion. It's only a few extra letters. :)

[mothwench]

yeah, alright already. will ya report my post please so that mol changes it?

edited to add: man, he's dissappeared again. kadynas i see u at the bottom of the page. you're my only hope. report me!

[Kadynas]

From what I've been around it's usually the fundamentalists that get upset with the abbreviation... my aunt used to go around anywhere she saw "x-mas" and tell people "You're not allowed to take the Christ out of Christmas!"

Back on topic though, I've pretty much heard the same things about Lilith that have been listed here, i.e. that she would not submit to Adam and actually chose exile over being subservient to him. My question is, where do these stories come from? I know she's not in the Bible and most Christians don't discuss her in their theology. I was told Lilith was a part of the Jewish faith (kinda funny isn't it that Frasier's ex-wife was named Lilith! What kind of Jew wants to name their daughter that? :lol: ) But isn't the Torah pretty much just the Old Testament? I'm just curious as to where the story of Lilith comes from, if there's some kind of extra scripture the Jewish faith has that the Christians don't?

[Cyberhawk]

Mothwench: Post reported. :)

Kadynas: "...if there's some kind of extra scripture the Jewish faith has that the Christians don't?"

Yeah maybe.

[mothwench]

Back on topic though, I've pretty much heard the same things about Lilith that have been listed here, i.e. that she would not submit to Adam and actually chose exile over being subservient to him. My question is, where do these stories come from? I know she's not in the Bible and most Christians don't discuss her in their theology. I was told Lilith was a part of the Jewish faith (kinda funny isn't it that Frasier's ex-wife was named Lilith! What kind of Jew wants to name their daughter that? :lol: ) But isn't the Torah pretty much just the Old Testament? I'm just curious as to where the story of Lilith comes from, if there's some kind of extra scripture the Jewish faith has that the Christians don't?

ya know, to tell you the truth i wasn't even aware of adam and other biblical characters being in jewish scripture... shows just how ignorant i am. :bigredblu
ah, well... here to learn...

[mothwench]

Mothwench: Post reported. :)



ah, cheers. :)

[mol]

Wrath? :lol: Whatever works. My point was, it is the Christian religion, not the x-tian. And while some may not care, there are just as many that do. It is just safer (and more respectful) to spell out their religion. It's only a few extra letters. :)
Only on Mystic Wicks can we find a Satanist defending the Christian religion.

[mol]

Done!

[mol]

edited to add: nice av. suits you, sir. ;) what's it mean?
tellmetellmetellmetellmetellmetellmetellme
I have no idea! I didnt put it on there. :rolleyes:

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, have to jump in here.

Here's the story of Lilith and why she is so speculated about:

Lilith was the first wife of Adam, created from the dust just as he was and so she would not submit, considering herself to be equal. Instead of being subservient to Adam she chose to speak the forbidden, secret name of God, thus being removed from the human world. She was then relegated to the position of demon/temptress as which she would seduce men and thus bore all of the minions of demons in the world today. (No I'm not Christian or Jewish and I don't really subscribe to all these theories, but this is her story.)

Now as to where the whole Lilith thing began. Read the book of Genesis. The story of the creation of mankind is told twice. The first time God created man and woman, implying that they were created at the same time. In the second story, God created man and then he created woman at a later time. Now this is likely the same story, mistranslations and retellings tend to skew things a bit. However, if you consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God, you pretty much have to say that this is two different stories and not two accounts of the same story. So you have Adam and his first wife who is not mentioned by name and then Adam and his second wife, Eve.

Ok, I'm done now.

[Epona44]

or the Lost books of Eden? These were books of the bible that were not included in the complilation that is called the Holy Bible. The Ecumenical Council of Constantinople apparently decided that although they were interesting reading, they were probably fiction, and were not included among the texts translated for the present Bible.
It's an interesting book, I read it years ago. :stomp:

[Aine of the Fae]

or the Lost books of Eden? These were books of the bible that were not included in the complilation that is called the Holy Bible. The Ecumenical Council of Constantinople apparently decided that although they were interesting reading, they were probably fiction, and were not included among the texts translated for the present Bible.
It's an interesting book, I read it years ago. :stomp:

Which presents the question of: "If people chose which books made it into the Bible and which ones didn't, how can the Bible be trusted as the infallible word of God?" And that whole "guided by the Holy Spirit" thing is a cop out for people who simply can't admit they don't have a real answer. (Sorry, I'm grumpy tonight. Been bashed by a few too many Christians today. Apparently because I'm a psychic Tarot reader, I am the sole cause of all of the world's problems......)

[Epona44]

Which presents the question of: "If people chose which books made it into the Bible and which ones didn't, how can the Bible be trusted as the infallible word of God?" And that whole "guided by the Holy Spirit" thing is a cop out for people who simply can't admit they don't have a real answer. (Sorry, I'm grumpy tonight. Been bashed by a few too many Christians today. Apparently because I'm a psychic Tarot reader, I am the sole cause of all of the world's problems......)

I went to a Catholic college. It was real interesting, being a pagan there. Major cast iron closet. However, the one required course I had to take was on the Old Testament. It was taught as an academic course, and the teacher pointed out the many inconsistencies and repetitions in the books. She said they were written by different authors and at different times. It reinforced my own beliefs by treating the Bible as literature. The other thing I learned there was respect for other people's beliefs even though I do not share them.

As long as they harm none, they can do as they will. I've met many Christians who are trying hard to live good lives.:farmerjoe I won't be converted, but I will give them space.

Sorry you're so grumpy. :cheers:

[Aine of the Fae]

Not so grumpy anymore. I have great respect for people who have true faith, no matter what form that faith takes. However I find myself irritated by people who give a religion 'lip-service' or who have blind faith.

It's is my belief that a person cannot have true faith until that faith has been tested in one way or another and that faith has stood up to the test. Christianity couldn't stand up to the test for me, neither could Wicca. I'm.... well, I'm not sure what you'd call me.... I guess I'm still a seeker.

[Epona44]

Not so grumpy anymore. I have great respect for people who have true faith, no matter what form that faith takes. However I find myself irritated by people who give a religion 'lip-service' or who have blind faith.

It's is my belief that a person cannot have true faith until that faith has been tested in one way or another and that faith has stood up to the test. Christianity couldn't stand up to the test for me, neither could Wicca. I'm.... well, I'm not sure what you'd call me.... I guess I'm still a seeker.

I think people join churches for many reasons. Sometimes to make new friends. Sometimes to meet someone to marry. Sometimes because they grew up in a certain faith, the same one as their parents, and they have children and they think that their children should go to church. Sometimes they go because their spouse pressures them to go. Sometimes it's an issue of control. Sometimes they do it for the social activity, they like ham and bean suppers, and fundraisers. Sometimes they do it because they like the social recognition. Sometimes they want to be part of an exclusive group. Sometimes it fulfills some need they have negative (to feel guilty) or positive ( to feel saved). Sometimes they go because they are afraid if they don't they'll go to hell in a handbasket.

What I'm saying is that it's not always about God. Or, it's about God but in some fuzzy and undefined way. It would be hard to say, I think who goes for spiritual guidance. I'm speaking from experience. I've known many church folks over the years.

:uhhuhuh: :braindrai

[Marchosias]

Only on Mystic Wicks can we find a Satanist defending the Christian religion.

At your service. :smoke:

[Psyclown]

Well just my honest, albeit limited, thoughts here but it was my understanding the Lillith indeed went on top rather than the subservient "missionary" position, so named because it was introduced by missionaries, (thats the kind of doing the Lords work I wouldn't mind)
And on her banishment she and her daughters became the Succubi, Hells equivalent of memaids i.e. luring men to hell, kinda conjures the thought you may not get laid but you are seriously F**ked!

[Aine of the Fae]

I think people join churches for many reasons. Sometimes to make new friends. Sometimes to meet someone to marry. Sometimes because they grew up in a certain faith, the same one as their parents, and they have children and they think that their children should go to church. Sometimes they go because their spouse pressures them to go. Sometimes it's an issue of control. Sometimes they do it for the social activity, they like ham and bean suppers, and fundraisers. Sometimes they do it because they like the social recognition. Sometimes they want to be part of an exclusive group. Sometimes it fulfills some need they have negative (to feel guilty) or positive ( to feel saved). Sometimes they go because they are afraid if they don't they'll go to hell in a handbasket.

What I'm saying is that it's not always about God. Or, it's about God but in some fuzzy and undefined way. It would be hard to say, I think who goes for spiritual guidance. I'm speaking from experience. I've known many church folks over the years.

:uhhuhuh: :braindrai

True faith and religion are two completely different things. Just because someone goes to church every Sunday doesn't mean they have true faith. I'm not saying they don't, but I'm not saying they do either.

[Djiril]

Lilith does not come from any "lost books of eden" that I know of. She comes from rabbinic commentary, which is an important part of Judaism after the Torah itself. There is some speculation that she was based on an early pagan goddess, but I don't know much about that. I have read a book of stories about her called Lilith's Cave. Here is a link to it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195067266/qid=1071330128//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/103-9477855-9435842?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

There is a folder titled "Lilith" in my bookmarks and here are the links in it, though I forget if I have read any of them:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/lilith.html

http://www.dhushara.com/book/song/song.htm (there's some mention of her near the bottom)

(I'm sorry if I seem a bit scatterbrained, but I probably shouldn't be online right now and I'm trying to hurry before I'm caught!):D

[mothwench]

no, that's great thanks. your bookmarks file probably looks just like mine *shudder* :ahhhh:

[*GrumpButt*]

SEEEE (lol) she wanted to ride up top lol!.... "YEEEEE HAW! lol!

[SylverStar]

If you re-read the first part of Genisis there are two creation stories. I think this is where the notion of Lilith came form. Also in vampire lore it is said she is the mother of Cain and started the race of vampires who have ever been cast out. This is in the Book of Nod. It looks like it might be mentioned in the Talmud as well however I haven't read it. Maybe I should do that tonight.

[Aine of the Fae]

If you re-read the first part of Genisis there are two creation stories. I think this is where the notion of Lilith came form. Also in vampire lore it is said she is the mother of Cain and started the race of vampires who have ever been cast out. This is in the Book of Nod. It looks like it might be mentioned in the Talmud as well however I haven't read it. Maybe I should do that tonight.

Actually according to some Jewish lore, Eve is the mother of Cain and the serpent is his father, thus introducing evil to humanity. Lilith never had children until after her demonization, where she seduces humans in order to have children.

[SylverStar]

It's been along time since I read The book of NOD.