need help with clarification on the Christian faith

[Rena]

I have in my mind a statement about the Christian faith that I want to make sure is correct. This is not for critisism I just want to make sure I am understanding this point correctly.
Is this true or false in the Christian faith

If a person leads their life well always being charitable to our fellow man, never commits any crimes or christian "sins" they will not go to "hevan" unless they except Jesus Christ into their life. Yet a person who say murders, rapes or some other "sin" asks Jesus Christ to "come in to their heart" even in the last minutes of their life will go to "hevan".

Have I learned this correctly or am I way of the mark?

[Seren Mara]

Many Christians do believe that unless you give fealty and loyalty to Jesus Christ, and put your life in His hands, you will not reach heaven. There is a Biblical basis for this... I don't have my Bible with me so I can't give you the verses just now. However, not all Christians believe this. I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that.

[Autumn Clair]

Actually you hit the nail on the head. You must except the son for it is thru Jesus that god hears us. Did you ever hear the bible school song. God the father god the father god the son god the son, god the holy spirit god the holy spirit three in one three in one. So if you except one of the three your excepting all three. And if you don't except none of them then don't ask for forgiveness because you have to believe in god in order to be forgiven. No matter how good you are you need to believe in them in order to get into heaven. God made heaven so you need to believe in him if you believe in heaven.

My opinion thru my up bringing..........

[Equinox]

Yep, that's pretty much right.

Many individual, good hearted Christians disagree with your statement, but the official doctine of nearly all major Christian denominations, including Catholic, Protestant (Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc., etc.) and Orthodox agree: You either accepted Christ as your one and only god or you go to hell, regardless of charity, murder, or other works.

To disagree is to commit the heresy of Pelagianism.


-Equinox

[Seren Mara]

Ha! I'm a heretic. Actually, I already knew that. I think it was when I said that I thought there would be rabbits in heaven that I got labelled that.

To be honest, how will we know specific things until we get there, is the way I see it, about the afterlife. I mean, I'm hoping there won't be a beast all covered in eyes, like it says in Revelation. (It's pretty trippy stuff, Revelation, if you read it.) But I am hoping that my rabbit will be there, and so will my sister. I can't really see God leaving them out, IMO.

[blueiris]

haha seren mara. yeah, don't christians believe that animals don't have souls? in the sect of christanity that i used to belonged to, that was true..that kind of turned me off to christianity.
aren't there Seven Deadly Sins and if you commit one of them you'll go to hell no matter what?

[Ben Trismegistus]

haha seren mara. yeah, don't christians believe that animals don't have souls? in the sect of christanity that i used to belonged to, that was true..that kind of turned me off to christianity.
Yes. One of the early reasons that my wife turned away from Catholicism was when she found out that a) dogs don't go to heaven, and b) babies who die before they're baptized spend all eternity in purgatory.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

John 14:6 Christ said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father, but through Me."

John 14:21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

By reading these particular verses it is entirely possible to read that the typical Christian belief is that unless you have accepted Jesus Christ into your heart as the Saviour.

~Saoirse Aiyana

[LittleRhiannon]

Well, in Dante's Inferno, I believe it states there is a place for good pagans/non christians. I think it's purgatory, but I'm not sure. Not horrible, but not to good either.

[ambermystique]

Accepting Jesus Christ into your heart is something not entirely of Christianity. That would be referred to in many Christian sects as "being saved." Many believe that if you do so, at any point in your life (i.e. seconds before Death comes for you), you will go to the paradise of Heaven. However, in Roman Catholicism, there is no actual act of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. It is just a given. If you are Catholic then you believe in God and the Holy Trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit), which is God. Also, many believe that if you are baptized then you are going to Heaven, regardless of actions. That is why many parents rush to have their babies baptized in the early weeks of their life, so that if Death comes for them, they will automatically go to Heaven and not be a restless soul in purgatory. Hope that helps a bit.
AmberMystique

[Equinox]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention……

As Saoirse Aiyana pointed out, the reason why all those Christian denominations state that accepting Jesus is required to avoid Hell is because it is stated pretty solidly in the New Testament of the Bible. Paul goes on and on about it (especially in Romans), and it shows up in plenty of other places in the NT also. Just another $0.02.

The seven deadly sins are not explicitly listed in the Bible. They have been more of a Catholic tradition, and of course some biblical support can be found, but as is often the case, a bit of stretching is needed there. They traditionally are:

Greed
Sloth
Envy
Lust
Rage
Gluttony
And Vanity

(they are easy to gruesomely remember by thinking about the movie “7”.)

-Equinox

[*GrumpButt*]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention……

Greed
Sloth
Envy
Lust
Rage
Gluttony
And Vanity

(they are easy to gruesomely remember by thinking about the movie “7”.)

-Equinox


Hmmmmm, then I guess I am damned 7 times over then...
At one point or another I have done these at least once lol.

[Ben Trismegistus]

So does anyone know what the difference is between "cardinal" sins and "venial" sins?

[Equinox]

Hi Ben-

Venial sins are minor and not considered significant enough to prevent one from going to heaven, while cardinal (more often called mortal) sins send one to hell if not absolved. These are from the Catholic tradition (authored by Thomas Aquinas), and are described in his magnum opus, the summa theologica.

Remember that in the Catholic church, the church authority is more important than in Protestantism. As such, Catholics are to go to a priest and confess their sins, like maybe once a week or month or whatever. Having been raised Catholic, I used to do this. The priest then absolves you of your sins (so you are forgiven personally by Christ, since the priest is his representative on earth). If you then commit a venial sin, and die before making it to confession again, you can still go to heaven, whereas if you commit a mortal sin and die before making it back to confession, you go to hell. :smoke: Catholics who don’t like Mr. Aquinas may personally have some other view.

Note the inherent conflict between this doctrine and the idea that you are saved if accept Christ as your only god, and damned otherwise, regardless of what you do. This conflict is a basic part of the entire reformation, and it was this question over confession that started Luther thinking.

Both the Catholics and the Protestants claim it is faith in Jesus alone, and not works, that gets you saved, but the Protestants say “Faith alone! Alone! ALONE!”, while the Catholics say “Faith alone, but works are good and you must do those too if you are a good Catholic”.

For more, the Catholics, unlike many denominations, are very clear about their doctrine (aside from self-contradictions like the one above). You can look up anything on their website, www.newadvent.com.

I hope this helps. Have a fun day!

-Equinox

[Ben Trismegistus]

Thanks - great answer Equinox!

[sanc]

yes many do beleive that, but the closeminded of them. There is a passage in the bible which i dont remember where that states anyone may come to heaven if they do the lord bidding i.e be nice give 2 others love ect ect there is a rant by a cathlic preist somewhere on the web about this because he feels with what is sed in the bible there anyone who doesnt beleive could come 2 heaven if they are nice people, he doesnt like this thought. but it is true that if u are nice but do not believe then you can come 2 heaven if u are a murderer and repent b4 u are killed u will b judged and this repentance will be to judged

[Cyberhawk]

I have in my mind a statement about the Christian faith that I want to make sure is correct. This is not for critisism I just want to make sure I am understanding this point correctly.
Is this true or false in the Christian faith

If a person leads their life well always being charitable to our fellow man, never commits any crimes or christian "sins" they will not go to "hevan" unless they except Jesus Christ into their life.

I don't believe this myself. I believe that in the end, God will judge accordingly.


Yet a person who say murders, rapes or some other "sin" asks Jesus Christ to "come in to their heart" even in the last minutes of their life will go to "hevan".



Yes, if they are truly and sincerely sorry and they truly repent and change their hearts, even in the last minute. It's not an instant get-out-of-jail-free card as it sounds. Repentance and conversion is not just saying so and going through the routein. It must be true and sincere. Only God knows if that is so.

[Equinox]

If a person leads their life well always being charitable to our fellow man, never commits any crimes or christian "sins" they will not go to "hevan" unless they except Jesus Christ into their life.

Cyberhawk wrote:
I don't believe this myself. I believe that in the end, God will judge accordingly.

The idea that it is acceptance of Christ as your only god and not any good deeds that get you into heaven is affirmed by the doctrines of nearly all major Christian denominations, including Catholic, Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, etc) and Orthodox, in addition to being affirmed by the Bible itself. The importance of accepting Christ is the main point of Paul’s evangelism, and is also important in the books by John and elsewhere in the NT. Of the 27 books of the NT, Paul is claimed to have written 13, and John 5. (though many of these appear to be forgeries, that’s a whole separate discussion).

However, I consider Cyberhawk to be Christian because is says he is, whether he goes by what the Bible says or not. (Cyberhawk, please correct me if it you're a she instead of a he). After all, there were dozens of alternative Christianities before the roman church began enforcing it’s domination. Most of these had their own different “Bibles”, that affirmed their views, and refuted the others. In fact, it is not clear that Jesus would not be labeled a heretic based on things in the synoptics. :rolleyes: As such, I tend to see anyone who claims to be a Christian as a Christian, whether they use the Bible, or are Gnostic, Pelagianist, or some other kind of “heretic”.

Heresy, is, after all, just another name for freedom of belief. :colorful:

-Equinox

[hedgecub]

I'd just like to add that most Christians believe it's impossible not to sin (however minorly) at least once in your life. So they believe everyone is equally guilty (whether you've murdered ten people or whether you've just told a small lie) and everyone needs Christ to wash them clean of sin.

[crashtime]

I'm not an expert on the Christian faith, but I used to be a Christian so I thought I would shed some light on this subject. I was a part of the Methodist church, which in my opinion is one of the more liberal denominations of Christianity. We really didn't talk about heaven or hell. Most of the sermons concentrated on doing good works, being nice to people, caring for your fellow man, etc. I was baptized, but the church never came out and said it was a requirement for entry into heaven. In fact, when I was at school and I heard kids talk about "being saved" I had no idea what that even was. In fact, I was even told at 13 that my baptism "did not count" because it wasn't done the right way. (Methodists are baptised by the pastor..he just takes a handful of holy water and places it on top of your head...instead of the "dunking" used by oter denominations...mostly fundamentalists). So I think it varies from denomination to denomination. But I do know for a fact that the more fundamentalist groups (Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ) do require that you accept Jesus and declare it.

[Cyberhawk]

The idea that it is acceptance of Christ as your only god and not any good deeds that get you into heaven is affirmed by the doctrines of nearly all major Christian denominations, including Catholic, Protestant (Baptist, Lutheran, etc) and Orthodox, in addition to being affirmed by the Bible itself. The importance of accepting Christ is the main point of Paul’s evangelism, and is also important in the books by John and elsewhere in the NT. Of the 27 books of the NT, Paul is claimed to have written 13, and John 5. (though many of these appear to be forgeries, that’s a whole separate discussion).

However, I consider Cyberhawk to be Christian because is says he is, whether he goes by what the Bible says or not. (Cyberhawk, please correct me if it you're a she instead of a he). After all, there were dozens of alternative Christianities before the roman church began enforcing it’s domination. Most of these had their own different “Bibles”, that affirmed their views, and refuted the others. In fact, it is not clear that Jesus would not be labeled a heretic based on things in the synoptics. :rolleyes: As such, I tend to see anyone who claims to be a Christian as a Christian, whether they use the Bible, or are Gnostic, Pelagianist, or some other kind of “heretic”.

Heresy, is, after all, just another name for freedom of belief. :colorful:

-Equinox

:)

I am christian because I believe that Christ is Lord and died for my sins, and I believe that there is one God. Regardless of whether other christians agree with what I have stated or not, I cannot call myself anything else because I do not believe in anything else. I am no theologist either, although I know the 'standard' bible quite thoroughly. I will often be defeated in theological arguments because I am not clever in making arguments. I just know what I believe and that is all. :) To me it is clear that God is the only Judge in the end, that is also written down quite clearly in every 'version' of the bible.

(since you asked, I'm a she, not a he. I tend to choose nicks that don't reveal gender out of habit. )

[Ben Trismegistus]

Good for you Cyberhawk. What it comes down to is strength in your religious convictions. Rock on.

[DarkSidhe]

Just as there are many different sects of christianity, there are many different views on this subject. According to the Roman Catholic Church, if you are not a Roman Catholic, it doesn't matter whether you believe and are baptised, you must be a Roman Catholic to get to heaven. According to other denominations, you just have to believe, and baptism is not necessary.

[Kes]

According to the NT, though, even the worst of the unbelievers won't be in hell for eternity. IIRC, after the 1000 years when Satan and his angels have dominion over the Earth, and after the "final battle" between the forces of Satan (Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet) and God's City, everyone is judged again. Those who profess belief in God and a willingness to follow God's law are then forgiven and purified. It's only those who still refuse to accept God and choose to follow Satan who are irrevocably cast in the lake of fire and summarily destroyed.


So technically, all becoming a Christian during this lifetime helps you do is avoid Hell until about 2000 years after the Second Coming.



Of course, I think it's pretty hard to see most of this as anything other than allegory (the choice of god over the "self" represented by Satan, hell as a separation from God, etc.). Moreover, I think it was the Second Vatican Council which stated that for Catholicism, at least, Hell is not a physical place but a separation from God. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please.