Jesus the Demigod

[Heathen Dawn]

Abstract:

What if Jesus was really born to a virgin and rose bodily from the dead? I explore this question from a pagan viewpoint.

Article URL:

http://www.geocities.com/eclecticsatyr/jesusdg.htm

[Morr]

I have to disagree with you.

What makes Jesus any different then Hercules?

Hercules was too born of God & a woman. Much like many other mythological figures.
Does it mean that a potential historic man named Hercules living in the days before Acient Greecian time, was in fact half man/half god?

Newsflash - Jesus himself never talked about any sort of immaculate conception at all.
It was the fathers of the church who later came up with this theory, see - Every man is born with Original Sin which has been passed through generations from the days of Adam & Eve, via intercourse.
If Jesus would be born of man & woman - Then he must have had this Original Sin deal running within him too. How would he then be so perfect & pure, moreover how would Jesus then be an incarnation of God himself - God is pure & perfect and has no sin within him whatsoever.

If anything - Greek Mythology's type immaculate conceptions sound more real then anything else - They weren't copied & edited into a religion to fit the needs of the founders of the religion & faith.

[Heathen Dawn]

Morr, what about the big, fat IF I put in the article? All of this article is a “what if”.


What makes Jesus any different then Hercules?

Hercules was too born of God & a woman. Much like many other mythological figures.
Does it mean that a potential historic man named Hercules living in the days before Acient Greecian time, was in fact half man/half god?

Newsflash - Jesus himself never talked about any sort of immaculate conception at all.
It was the fathers of the church who later came up with this theory, see - Every man is born with Original Sin which has been passed through generations from the days of Adam & Eve, via intercourse.
If Jesus would be born of man & woman - Then he must have had this Original Sin deal running within him too. How would he then be so perfect & pure, moreover how would Jesus then be an incarnation of God himself - God is pure & perfect and has no sin within him whatsoever.

Regardless of the motives of the Church Fathers, Jesus may have been born to a virgin impregnated by a God (Yahweh, in this case). That would make him just like Herakles. And even if he wasn’t, there’s still the Resurrection to contend with. Not all apotheothenai were offspring of the Gods, but all were granted immortality by Them.

[Morr]

I have a lot of respect for the historic Magdalene and the early christians who supported the idea of the resurection - but just because the only explination we have today for Jesus' body not being found is resurection, doesnt mean its prove that it happened.
For all we know, somebody could have moved the body, the tomb could have been looted (most likely since he was burried in a rich person's tomb), etc.

There is no "If" here because there is proof that the historic Jesus had nothing to do with an immaculate conception nor no knowlege of such thing. If anything, the idea of an immaculate conception, to Jesus, would be sinful - seeing as he was a Jew, and you know how Judaism sees Pagan lore & myths.

[Keith Dragon]

If we knew for a fact that Jesus was born of a Virgin and rose from the dead, it would strengthen the Christian stance on their faith, making their belief structure stronger.

However, as a pagan, I believe that if this is possible, that a spirit can enter into the womb of a Virgin woman, be born with a sense of connection to the Universal Consciousness, as well as rise from the dead, would illustrate to me that:

1. There is indeed something beyond which we see in our observable world. All we know in terms of physics, would be shattered, only to reveal a greater, more resolved truth. Our paradigm would shift, and our focus in this world would be more spiritual then scientific.

2. Death is just an Illusion. It has always been my belief that one of Jesus's lessons was that life is eternal, and that death is an illusion. If we knew for a fact that Jesus did, beyond a shadow of a doubt, rise from the dead. A lot of strife, and wars in this world would never have happened, not to say others wouldn't have. I believe that one of the causes of most of the problems we face in humanity, is the fear of death. People use it to control societies. Thieves use it against their victims. No one wants to die, so they would do anything to stay alive, out of this fear. But if we all knew there was life after death, that fear is gone, and could not be used against us. Though this can be warped, like by the Celts that believed that you would only be reincarnated on Earth if you died in battle, so that rules out part of that theory.

3. That I have much still to learn in this world. I for one base part of my spiritual path in emulating Jesus. Not as a Christian, I do not diefy him, but a connecting with the Universal Consciousness that I've begun to slowly begin to sense. Also, the concept of forgiveness. If this indeed was true, I would feel I was on the right track, and I would devote my life to following my spiritual path fully, as my number one priority. Why, because that is where I am in life. I hunger for the spiritual connection with the Universe, getting tastes hear and there, not know exactly if I'm doing things right, but to know that what I was doing wasn't in vain, I'd be able to focus my learning more clearly. I am a very spiritual person, though not dedicated to any one religion, but try to see God through all of them.

4. A sense of relief that I will exist beyond this life, however, the key comes from having doubt. It is through our doubt that we spiritually grow, not because we learn, but incorporate what we learn into our practice, to learn more. If we knew for a fact that life existed beyond death, there would be no spiritual growth. A stagnant energy in the Universe. At least until we came to a level of consciousness to implement our own growth.

5. Much religious debate would be resolved, but I'm sure with human nature, other debates would surface.

6. And lastly, I say to him, "That was cool, Do It Again."

But seriously, I think it would validate a sense of something more in the Universe that we yet do not understand. In fact, I believe that if we did know if it were true or not, it might cause more problems then currently exist. Meaning that Christians would be more fanatical about their faith. But atleast we would know for a fact that there is something more.

Dragon


.

[Heathen Dawn]

I have a lot of respect for the historic Magdalene and the early christians who supported the idea of the resurection - but just because the only explination we have today for Jesus' body not being found is resurection, doesnt mean its prove that it happened.
For all we know, somebody could have moved the body, the tomb could have been looted (most likely since he was burried in a rich person's tomb), etc.

I did make allowance for those possibilities in my article.


There is no "If" here because there is proof that the historic Jesus had nothing to do with an immaculate conception nor no knowlege of such thing.

Where’s this proof?


If anything, the idea of an immaculate conception, to Jesus, would be sinful - seeing as he was a Jew, and you know how Judaism sees Pagan lore & myths.

But I’m a pagan, I don’t see things through the eyes of Judaism anymore.

[Keith Dragon]

There is no "If" here because there is proof that the historic Jesus had nothing to do with an immaculate conception nor no knowlege of such thing. If anything, the idea of an immaculate conception, to Jesus, would be sinful - seeing as he was a Jew, and you know how Judaism sees Pagan lore & myths.[/QUOTE]


Morr, Heathen is just trying to create a discussion of imagining what it would be like today, if this were indeed true. What effects it would have on todays world. What if we could go back in time with a camera, and videotape it to the world, what would happen.

Not whether or not it factually did or did not happen. It's just a tool to spark the imagination and using the result to see the topic from a different viewpoint.

It's like imagine what the world would be like today if the Concept of Physics, and the Movement of the Planets, of Ptolemy and Ancient Greece were true, and Newtonian Physics didn't exist.

[Morr]

the proof is - that up untill the Fathers of the Church (namely St. Augustine) - nobody (in the monotheistic world) knew what the heck original sin, and nor Immaculate conception of an actual living person.

You cant say that you are a pagan, not a jew viewing this subject - You arent the messiah of the religion which revolves around this idea.
The fact remains that much like today's Christianity is opposite of the true teachings of Jesus, the immaculate conception is same.

Why would the immaculate conception be true, or have a potential "if" factor to it, if most other things do not. Then I guess "Original Sin" has an "if" factor to it.
But I think we all agree that "Babies only smile because they are full of sin and are trying to get you to like them and sin yourself" is sorta off base.

I suggest you pick up St. Augustine's "Confessions" - you'll realize that the guy had MAJOR problems, whether its spiritual breakdowns, bad relationships with women (even a major fear of women) or low self esteem.

There cant be a discuission about this because its not possible - At least in regards to Jesus.

[Morr]

PS - Heathen, now you made me miss like half of "Michaela" on Artutz Shalosh!!
:lol:

[Aine of the Fae]

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Christ's birth, it's Mary's birth. Although it does have to do with the idea of Original Sin. The idea was that God allowed Mary to be born without the taint of sin, therefore it would not be passed to Christ through her blood.

And Morr is right, Original Sin and Immaculate Conception are concepts foreign to the world before the time of the early Catholic church. In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) Judaism has no concept of Original Sin.

[Morr]

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Christ's birth, it's Mary's birth. Although it does have to do with the idea of Original Sin. The idea was that God allowed Mary to be born without the taint of sin, therefore it would not be passed to Christ through her blood.

And Morr is right, Original Sin and Immaculate Conception are concepts foreign to the world before the time of the early Catholic church. In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) Judaism has no concept of Original Sin.


Ok well - immaculate conception, the mary having absolutely no sex yet *POOF* she's magically pregnant - no, no proof, nothing like that was ever mentioned at the time of Jesus or the early Church.

And yes Aine, you are correct - There is no "Original Sin" in Judaism.
Man creates sin, you are born pure - Its your choices in life and how you handle the struggle within you between doing whatever the heck you want, to Y-H-V-H's laws which is what you're judged for in Judaism.

[Heathen Dawn]

the proof is - that up untill the Fathers of the Church (namely St. Augustine) - nobody (in the monotheistic world) knew what the heck original sin, and nor Immaculate conception of an actual living person.

Up until the writing of the New Testament, I’d say. The idea of original sin is in the NT, in Romans 5:12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Rom+5%3A12&version=NIV). The Virgin Birth is in the NT too. The Church Fathers didn’t invent any doctrine extraneous to the NT.


There cant be a discuission about this because its not possible - At least in regards to Jesus.

I just have to disagree. It is possible, otherwise I wouldn’t be agnostic about the whole thing. In the end, either possibility doesn’t affect us: if Jesus was just an ordinary mortal, then Christianity has no real basis, and if Jesus really rose bodily from the dead, then he’s a demigod and paganism has yet another corroboration.

Sorry about the TV show, Morr.

[Heathen Dawn]

The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Christ's birth, it's Mary's birth.

Exactly. I’m talking about the Virginal Conception of Jesus.


And Morr is right, Original Sin and Immaculate Conception are concepts foreign to the world before the time of the early Catholic church. In fact (correct me if I'm wrong) Judaism has no concept of Original Sin.

They (Virgin Birth of Jesus, and Original Sin) are foreign to the Jewish OT but they’re found in the Christian NT. As for the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that’s a peculiarly Roman Catholic doctrine with no basis in the NT.

[Morr]

Heathen, the New Testament documents (the "approved" ones) date back to around 70AD - and the version you have today in the NT - do you SERIOUSLY think the Church didnt edit them to fit its dogma?
Come on - the church didnt even know what it was talking about till the 16th century.

Also, say the versions of the cannonized texts we have today were never edited - do you think that people back in 70AD who believed in Jesus, or at least wanted to sway a crowed and found a new religion would have Jesus be just an ordinary person - A virgin type birth was new & exciting and very "wow" & attractive.

Anyone could write a fab story with new advancements & ideas. Thats why humanity reached the places (history, literature, mathematics, science, physics, biology, art, etc) it reaches to this day.

Nowadays there is a research going on regarding Magdalene, and her being the true "Beloved Deciple" and potentially being the author of "John", however the Church edited that gospel and turned the writer of "John" into annonymus male, and the same with the "beloved deciple" - Just so that it wont turn out to be that a woman was the leading apostle and the founder of early christianity.
Early christianity was VERY different then what we have today, in fact - its most like gnostic christianity today. Also, Pope Gregory The Great was the one who REALLY declared Magdalene as being a prostitute.

So if that can be edited - Literal History changed - Why not everything else.
Unfortunately for the Church - its beginning to lose, and the texts it hid & edited are beginning to be revealed. It sucks, but thats the way it is.

[Heathen Dawn]

Also, say the versions of the cannonized texts we have today were never edited - do you think that people back in 70AD who believed in Jesus, or at least wanted to sway a crowed and found a new religion would have Jesus be just an ordinary person - A virgin type birth was new & exciting and very "wow" & attractive.

Anyone could write a fab story with new advancements & ideas. Thats why humanity reached the places (history, literature, mathematics, science, physics, biology, art, etc) it reaches to this day.

Again, Morr, I did allow in the article for the idea that the whole Virgin Birth and Resurrection accounts about Jesus might be nothing more than myths. How many times do I have to say it? The article is a Gedankenexperiment (erudite German term for thought experiment).

[Isildae]

I believe that Jesus was the son of a god(Yahwe perhaps, but who really knows?) and that his Mother Mary was probably a Virgin. I also believe in the resurrection, as much as I believe Osiris rose from the dead, or Krishna. I believe these things happen for a reason, and that only the gods know the whole truth.

[valis]

in judaism original sin is attribtued to eve biting the apple. this is the event that allows man to sin. the concept that she went against the will of god (yhwh, el elyon, el shaddai, enil) could be a mistranslation from the original text from sumerian & babylonian creation myths. to them serperents were not omens (as they were to the early hebrews), and the serpent in their myths represented the brother of enil, enki who wanted adom (eve inclusive) to have the knoweledge. so his advice to eve may of been just. enil, however, did not want the new bloodline to have their knoweledge. the orignal myths don't claim the adom (later adam) were the first humans, but rather human of a kingly bloodline. a bloodline that may flow to jesus, and if so negating an immaculate conception.

the concept of messiah the christians borrowed from the hebrews, but manipulated to fit their version. the concept of hebrew messiah(s) were not the sons of god, but more along the lines of a leader; they were looking for two one for the priestly line, and one for the kingly line. jesus may have been one & his brother james the other (hotly debatable of course).

it's important to remember that christianity (catholicism) was molded and manipulated to be accepted by roman dictate at the time. so the true teaching of christ were lost. i don't think christ wanted a new religion. if anything he was denouncing the hiearchial structure of some hebrew sects of the time. jesus was most likely an essene of qumran who were strict hebrews that didn't believe in the forms of establish indoctrination some jews were developing at the time. the essense believed that god was everywhere and you didn't have to go to a temple with four walls to worship.

i don't think pagans would like the immaculate conception theory to well given the emphasis they placed on fertility worship. i don't think it would make sense to them. just as immaculate conception doesn't make sense to gnostics, hebrew, and muslims. it's primarily a roman catholic concept.

[Heathen Dawn]

On a lighter note, the Christians I taking to this hypothesis rather charitably:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23695

I was hoping they’d try to refute it, but no takers so far. Maybe the sublime J P Holding (http://www.tektonics.org) would have some spare time for the task.

[Ben Trismegistus]

In my opinion, the quickest way to cock up any religion is to take it too literally. I can't believe that Yahweh knocked up a 14-year-old Jewish virgin anymore than I can believe that Leda got busy with a sexy swan. It's the mythologies themselves and what they tell us that is important, not whether they were literally true.

[Shanti]

Jesus the Demigod How do we REALLY know he wasnt. You know....A wolf in sheeps clothing?

It would be a great way to fool all of the people all of the time!


Just a thought. Thats what I do!:colorful:

[Keith Dragon]

Just curious, do I have the concept of this thread all wrong. I thought this was to be an abstract thought experiment about what "IF", key word "IF", it were true, how would that affect your pagan beliefs. Not whether or not it was true by what we know. I don't know, am I missing something.

[Shanti]

Just curious, do I have the concept of this thread all wrong. I thought this was to be an abstract thought experiment about what "IF", key word "IF", it were true, how would that affect your pagan beliefs. Not whether or not it was true by what we know. I don't know, am I missing something.
Well, if I look at it from that perspective, I'd have to say:
"I knew it!!!! That explains everything!!!!"

[Heathen Dawn]

Just curious, do I have the concept of this thread all wrong. I thought this was to be an abstract thought experiment about what "IF", key word "IF", it were true, how would that affect your pagan beliefs. Not whether or not it was true by what we know. I don't know, am I missing something.

That’s right. Is there any way we could possibly know whether Jesus rose from the dead? I don’t think so. Christian apologists try to establish the Resurrection by elimination (“the Romans didn’t do such and such, so...” ), but it’s not highly convincing. Still, what if Jesus really did rise from the dead? Would it mean Jesus is the Eternal Lord of All Creation? From my viewpoint, it wouldn’t.

[Morr]

That?s right. Is there any way we could possibly know whether Jesus rose from the dead? I don?t think so. Christian apologists try to establish the Resurrection by elimination (?the Romans didn?t do such and such, so...? ), but it?s not highly convincing. Still, what if Jesus really did rise from the dead? Would it mean Jesus is the Eternal Lord of All Creation? From my viewpoint, it wouldn?t.

say he did raise from the dead because he was in fact divine (any kind of divine), why then go through all the suffering he did? whats the point?

If I was a Divine power that wanted to have everyone see the "truth" and I wanted to prove to them that I am the one divine power - heck, id do a miracle or two to prove to them that I'm the all mighty.
Why incarnate into a HUMAN form, suffer like crazy - die - and then only 3 days later rise from the dead and that way show people I'm a god?

I think Divine is smarter then that.

[The Shadowy Dawn]

QUOTE:If I was a Divine power that wanted to have everyone see the "truth" and I wanted to prove to them that I am the one divine power - heck, id do a miracle or two to prove to them that I'm the all mighty.
Why incarnate into a HUMAN form, suffer like crazy - die - and then only 3 days later rise from the dead and that way show people I'm a god?QUOTE

what if he actualy did do a couple a maricles? the bible has been tampered with so many times, look at the New Testament (did God change his mind or something), some historians believe that Mary Magdolin wrote something in the bible, some think so did the Virgin, but it was a SEVERLY PATRIARCAL time and men, in the end, held the pens thus... had the power. Mary Magdolin might not of been a prostitute(they make her to be one and Jesus accepts her and "cleans" her, more points for Jesus, more points for men) i mean, she is a saint, the only one who isnt a virgin! that thought had to of come up.

and, women are the creaters of sin, Eve bit the apple then "tricked" her BELOVED husbend into biting it too. and someone was talking on here that sin was intercourse, hey wasnt it Lilith who REFUSED to do "It" with Adam, thus she is not sinning, BUT she gets kicked out, and "turns into" the mother of demons, first she wont have sex, now she a mother???

back to the maricles, the only reason the monks might of not recorded them was because they wanted the people to look bad, "SINNERS!! HE WILL DILIVER YOU!!""

hey i am not against the bible or Christianity, but jeese, why do they always got bang on women?

[Keith Dragon]

That’s right. Is there any way we could possibly know whether Jesus rose from the dead? I don’t think so. Christian apologists try to establish the Resurrection by elimination (“the Romans didn’t do such and such, so...” ), but it’s not highly convincing. Still, what if Jesus really did rise from the dead? Would it mean Jesus is the Eternal Lord of All Creation? From my viewpoint, it wouldn’t.

We have only those words of those that were there to confirm he did rise from the dead, or did his miracles, but in the same sense, if it were all true, we have only Jesus's words to go by that what he was saying was true, because there was noone else that could confirm this as fact, just as there is noone alive to confirm the fact that what he did was ture. However, it is my belief that the Concept of Jesus as God is misinterpreted, because most people think of God as an individual being that exists separate from ourselves. It is my belief instead that the term God refers to the Universal Consciousness that permeates Existence, or Creation for lack of a better word. I believe, from what is said of Jesus, and my Understanding of the universal Consciousness, and my own personal experiences, that Jesus was a Human that was able to connect to this Universal Consciousness, just as the Buddha was, and many tibetan monks

The trick to understanding this concept is that when you connect to this Universal Consciousness, you are in that moment, GOD, but also remain your individual self, the concept of Singular Multiplicity. The possiblity of being your individual self, and God simultaneously is difficult for people even today to comprehend, much less people back then. And there is no way in the language of the time, that Jesus could express to them what he was experiencing, but instead spoke in parable to express these concepts. And this is the concept that you are, in the end God. (God meaning all aspects of God in every possible religious view, including the Goddess) But how can everyone be God, and be different. This is another discussion.

However, I mention this, because in this view, if all about Jesus was indeed true, and what I know of the Universal Consciousness, he then, in my view, was the God of Creation as we know it. But this is also the case of the Buddha, as well, the Buddha when opening up to this force, became God also. Not a different God, but the same. As with anyone that open to the Universal consciousness become a walking breathing extension God. This is a Multi-dimensional Universe, approx. 11 by current quantum physical science understanding, so God also is multidimensional. This is why it is difficult to comprehend this in our dimension.



Dragon

[Morr]

what if he actualy did do a couple a maricles? the bible has been tampered with so many times, look at the New Testament (did God change his mind or something), some historians believe that Mary Magdolin wrote something in the bible, some think so did the Virgin, but it was a SEVERLY PATRIARCAL time and men, in the end, held the pens thus... had the power. Mary Magdolin might not of been a prostitute(they make her to be one and Jesus accepts her and "cleans" her, more points for Jesus, more points for men) i mean, she is a saint, the only one who isnt a virgin! that thought had to of come up.

and, women are the creaters of sin, Eve bit the apple then "tricked" her BELOVED husbend into biting it too. and someone was talking on here that sin was intercourse, hey wasnt it Lilith who REFUSED to do "It" with Adam, thus she is not sinning, BUT she gets kicked out, and "turns into" the mother of demons, first she wont have sex, now she a mother???

back to the maricles, the only reason the monks might of not recorded them was because they wanted the people to look bad, "SINNERS!! HE WILL DILIVER YOU!!""

hey i am not against the bible or Christianity, but jeese, why do they always got bang on women?

hey hey,
i was just making an assumption, but im not one who believes Jesus did in fact resurrect or was Divine. I do believe, however that he was a very spiritual & enlightened person, and that if he did perform any kind of miracles, it was nothing short of herbology & spellcraft as we know it today - Especially when it comes to the healing part.

As for Magdalene - you are right, there is now a new (the past decade or so) research that is being done about her being the "beloved deciple" and in fact being the one who wrote gospel of John. However it is believed that the gospel of john was edited by the church in order to cover up the fact that a woman wrote it, and also was the beloved deciple of jesus, and closest to him. There are also speculations as to christ's relationship with Mary - proposing a marriage & even children, and her later after his death assuming the role of the leader of the early christianity (the cult of Christ's followers at the time).

[Keith Dragon]

say he did raise from the dead because he was in fact divine (any kind of divine), why then go through all the suffering he did? whats the point?

If I was a Divine power that wanted to have everyone see the "truth" and I wanted to prove to them that I am the one divine power - heck, id do a miracle or two to prove to them that I'm the all mighty.
Why incarnate into a HUMAN form, suffer like crazy - die - and then only 3 days later rise from the dead and that way show people I'm a god?

I think Divine is smarter then that.

I believe this was done because for some reason, people have to have an extreme example of death and destruction to ultimately get the point. For example, the threat of terrorism has always been there, but noone in America took it seriously until 9/11 happened, but then also went fanatical themselves, as did Christians in the end.

But it is a step in the mass consciousness growth of a society.

As a Divine Being, he knew for himself, Death was an illusion, and you can talk about it as much as you want, but noone will take you seriously, unless you show them. But, if there was not controversy in what Jesus was saying, no one would pay attention, and no one would see the miracle of the resurection. He needed to have everyone see what brutally was being done to him, so they would pay attention to it, evoking compassion in those that watched. As we all we glued to the events of 9/11.

This was the only way Jesus could illustrate in terms that people would understand, that Death is an illusion, and not the end, but merely a transition. The problem is that Jesus freaked people out so much, the created a cult around him, which evolved into Christianity. I say this because all religions were once cults. But that is what was needed at the time.

And the fact that people saw what happened, and that he cam back. validated everything that he said, and all the miracles he did while alive. Otherwise, everyone would have forgotten.

Unfortunatley, as humans, it takes despair, pain, suffering, war, hunger, oppression, death, to realize this all. It is only then we realize something is wrong, and fix it. Like a car, we don't take a car to be repaired when it is working fine, only when it breaks down.

These breakdown in society are needed so society can improve upon itself. What Jesus did, however, was just a step on the Consciousness ladder, and not the end result itself.

Also, as a part of the Divine when this was happening, he was probalby above the pain, and did not feel it as we would. But why would someone do this to themselves, but then again, why do people love to go to horror films. To understand death, in the safety of cinema. As divine, Jesus new afterwards, he would be fine, just like cinema.

Dragon