"Traditional Witchcraft"

[mucgwyrt]

This is the first time I've really spoken about the path I have found myself travelling in all the time I've been here, I think! My path is one of the Traditional Witch. Well, as traditional as you can get - every traditional-witch's path is different, and not much is written about it. I was lucky enough to be welcomed by a witch-family here in britain, and to learn from them :)

I try to stick to a "traditional" witchcraft, as opposed to 1950s Wicca etc. Not because I feel its any more valid, but because I much prefer the simplicity of the Pre-Gardnerian witchcraft strain. "Traditional" in this sense refers to a witchraft pre-wicca, the family tradition, hedgewitchery.

For example, I do not use an alter - the earth is the alter upon which I live :smile:.
I do use a Stang however (although I'm looking for one made of Rowan, at the moment I use a make-do Stang!) which is similar to an alter in many respects; it is a long staff with a forked top, used to symbolise the unity of the masculine (the pole - day, the sun) and the feminine (the fork, night, the moon) as well The Horned God, Cernunnous.

My Stang is present whenever I cast a circle, or do anything witchy. It is a part of me :smile:
I believe my future Stang has a guardian which I have met in a dream, and he will look out for me when I open the door into the Otherworld when I cast a circle, and in my magical life in general. I'm not sure about my Make-Do-Stang, as I've not committed to it so much; I've not created a bond with it so much.

At Samhain I will my decorate my Stang with Duck feathers to symbolise death and life, at Ostara I decorate it with daffodils and goose feathers, on MayDay I will decorate it with fresh tulips and with cherry blossoms if I come across any, at Harvest I will hang corn and orange autumn leaves from the fork. In between, a piece of red ribbon (symbolising the blood of The Mother) and several Goose feathers (showing my not so traditional Shamanic side; the goose is my spirit animal! :smile: ) hang from the fork, along with whatever I feel is relevant in my life at the time, e.g. there is currently a strand of moonstone chips, representing my new found affinity with crystals an their energies, as well the piece of moonstone I gave the Yew Spirit as a peace offering an apology.

My Stang is shod with a single iron nail, which I have read on the few Traditional Witch websites I have come accross that some say is to stop its powers from escaping from the bottom!! I personally believe this is a silly notion!! My own Stang is shod though, because Iron is made of the earth, and I feel it increases the Stang's (and by extension, my own) connection with the earth. Some witches keep it stood in a pot of Earth which they refill every full moon, though I personally don't because its not practical for me.

Unlike Wicca, there are no real 'rules' to follow. I celebrate whatever festival if/when I feel is best for me (e.g. I celebrate Beltane on MayDay - this year MayDay is the 3rd of May, and I choose to celebrate Samhain on the Dark Moon which falls nearest to halloween). There is no 'Witch Rede' - the closest thing to the notion of the 'threefold' law is that if you feel guilt over your actions, your energies will return to you. If you do not feel guilty over whatever you have done, you are free of consequence; your energies will not linger and will not affect you. I dont know how many un-traditional witches would agree, but it has proved itself to me.

What else? I dont use an athame, because they are not practical. As I understand it, an Athame was a notion which Gardner brought back from his time in Malaysia. Instead I use one hand-decorated folding penknife for all my work - from carving into candles to collecting herbs - and so I bond with it better than I would an ornate knife I never use.

My one downfall, as I have said before, is that I love scrying! Traditional witches I believe, use pools or bowls of water, whereas I'm rather attached to my Obsidian Ball and my swanky new quartz pendulum :D

I believe and work with things like chakras and auras, but see these things as seperate from Witchcraft. The pentagram has little meaning for me, it is from the Quabbala.

I embrace the dark side of life, the Dark moon etc, and have no fear of spell casting if I so desire. I do not hide from the dark as many 'fluffy' wiccans do (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.)

I have a BOS, though that is not a part of traditional witchcraft, as most old witches could not read or write - theirs was an oral tradition. However, I am blessed with the ability to read, and put it to good use :D

I can't think of anything else, though I will mention it if I remember anything :D
I have much more to learn :)

[Nighthawk]

That sounds fascinating. I am not really of this path, but will be reading this, for info. I love the way you explained it all so clearly. Thank you for sharing.

[mucgwyrt]

Phew, I'm glad it was clear! :lol:

[mucgwyrt]

PS - Traditional Witches tend to consider god/esses aspects of the same, e.g. Venus and Aphrodite are the same aspect of the divine; love. They are just different names for the same force :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

My one downfall, as I have said before, is that I love scrying! Traditional witches I believe, use pools or bowls of water, whereas I'm rather attached to my Obsidian Ball and my swanky new quartz pendulum

Have you tried using fire? Similar to seeking visions in water or balls? I would imagine since there was such easy access to fire, that it would have been fairly traditional as well.

[midnightreflections]

OK I'm traditional as well (and also can't spell today lol). I know a couple of TW who use more swanky balls and pedulums. I do use a crystal I found a few years back occasionly but mainly my more swanky items are just for decoration - but that is also because i was taught without using anything but "me" for years and now prefer that method to most others most of the time


hmmm i think that nearly made sense lol

[mucgwyrt]

Saiorse - nope, not tried fire yet (dont think my ma' would like me setting her garden on fire :lol: ) though I know the Native Americans used fire/smoke :)

[mothwench]

This is the first time I've really spoken about the path I have found myself travelling in all the time I've been here, I think!
about time too! :woot: :lol:

I try to stick to a "traditional" witchcraft, as opposed to 1950s Wicca etc. Not because I feel its any more valid, but because I much prefer the simplicity of the Pre-Gardnerian witchcraft strain. "Traditional" in this sense refers to a witchraft pre-wicca, the family tradition, hedgewitchery.
did you read aefentid's explination of haegtesse? i just saw that, and found it really interesting. it's in the signup thread of norse heathenry in the circle of teaching. in hedgewitchery, do you have the same definition of hedge as boundary between civilization and the wilderness?

My Stang is shod with a single iron nail, which I have read on the few Traditional Witch websites I have come accross that some say is to stop its powers from escaping from the bottom!! I personally believe this is a silly notion!! My own Stang is shod though, because Iron is made of the earth, and I feel it increases the Stang's (and by extension, my own) connection with the earth. Some witches keep it stood in a pot of Earth which they refill every full moon, though I personally don't because its not practical for me.
what a cool idea! i have a forked beechwood staff, and i keep wanting to decorate it, and keep changing my mind... i've had it well over a year now, and as of yet i haven't done anything with it. it's very special to me, and anything i do with it will have to be perfect. :rolleyes: an iron nail seems to be a good start though. what a great idea, for grounding and protection. :D :D

What else? I dont use an athame, because they are not practical. As I understand it, an Athame was a notion which Gardner brought back from his time in Malaysia. Instead I use one hand-decorated folding penknife for all my work - from carving into candles to collecting herbs - and so I bond with it better than I would an ornate knife I never use.
i use a stanley knife, or a big black kitchen knife. :spaceman: i think i should try and get myself something a bit nicer.

I believe and work with things like chakras and auras, but see these things as seperate from Witchcraft. The pentagram has little meaning for me, it is from the Quabbala.
*smiles* i've always seen the pentagram as something i have yet to understand. it's a pretty symbol, though. :)

[mucgwyrt]

about time too! :woot: :lol:

did you read aefentid's explination of haegtesse? i just saw that, and found it really interesting. it's in the signup thread of norse heathenry in the circle of teaching. in hedgewitchery, do you have the same definition of hedge as boundary between civilization and the wilderness?



I guess so, without that being my intention :smile: !
I personally feel 'hedgewitches' (which I admit to not doing much research into - all the books I've ever found on it are very wicca-esque, I was just drawing comparisons :) ) are seperate from the 'polluting' aspects of civilisation - which are, in my mind, mixing different types of religeon and ending up with someone entirely new and so forgetting your roots and other important and traditional things like herbal-healing. (On that note, I keep meaning to go pick some nice fresh Willow Bark and dry it for future use - which is where aspirin is dirived - instead of taking horrible chemically tablets from boots-the-chemist :D )

edit: so yes, to clarify, I guess I do think the same but I would much rather have both feet behind the hedge than one in each to be honest. My lotto-dream is to have a dairy farm :D . No really, Im serious! I want cows and a duck pond and some geese (all are not for eating mind you) and I'd be oh-so happy to get up at 6am and milk the moos *glee*
:floating:




what a cool idea! i have a forked beechwood staff, and i keep wanting to decorate it, and keep changing my mind... i've had it well over a year now, and as of yet i haven't done anything with it. it's very special to me, and anything i do with it will have to be perfect. :rolleyes: an iron nail seems to be a good start though. what a great idea, for grounding and protection. :D :D

i use a stanley knife, or a big black kitchen knife. :spaceman: i think i should try and get myself something a bit nicer.

*smiles* i've always seen the pentagram as something i have yet to understand. it's a pretty symbol, though. :)

Yeah, if you feel a connection to your beech staff it's obviously calling to you!
decorate me, mothwench, decorate me!
:lol:

I have heard that the pentagram symbol can be made up of the symbols which make up the word 'Stang' some lanuage or other (I'd have to look it up to remember which)... not sure how true it is though, its not something I've read anywhere else.

[mucgwyrt]

PS, what with all my late encounters with spirits, its a nice feeling there's one based in my stang to look out for me :D

[mothwench]

:floating: i'll shoe it tomorrow. last night banondraig was at my house and she had the idea of fastening crystals or pretty stones to the two ends with wire. that sounds pretty cool as well. i'll need to look up some crystals...

[mucgwyrt]

Howja mean - to the fork?
I have some snail shells (covered in varnish to make them less brittle) ready to go on mine :D

[mothwench]

snail shells! the spiral! your full of cool ideas. and yeah, i meant to the forked end bits. and maybe a larger one in the middle where they join? i don't know.... need to think about it some more.
i shod mine, and now it makes a cool noise when i tap it on the ground. :kooky:

[mucgwyrt]

Moth the musical wench! heehee :D
That would look nice. I think putting something in the centre like a candle or a pointed crystal (quartz?) is symbolic of conception :smile:

[mothwench]

uh-oh. :shaker: better not then. :lol:

[LightDancer]

So is there going to be a teaching circle on trad. witchcraft anytime in the not too distant future? Seeing as there seems to be little written down about it out there, and I'm livin' in Mormonville, so finding a family to study under is unlikely.

I would love to learn more, and maybe have some instruction in the rites involved (I read the essays at meadows of Elfhame, and the explainations there were downright confusing...lol). Let me know:)

Jamie

[mothwench]

which essays? can you give a link for those? just curious. :huh:

ps :lol: nice avatar and title, btw. lookout, macha! you're being badgered! :lol:

[LightDancer]

http://elfhame.cjb.net/

Go to scarespite, he has a bunch of essays explaining the certain rites of trad. witchcraft.

Glad you like the avatar :tongueout

Jamie

[midnightreflections]

I'm setting up a study group type of deal of mine site

and i was wondering about bringing it over to this site as well - lol i think I kind of worry about volunteering myself then finding nobody interestered and being rejected

[mucgwyrt]

I'm not sure about a teaching group on trad witchcraft... the thing is, there's so little written down that the majority of it is personal-preference, so everyone's practise of it differs. I think once you know the 'basics' and how Gardners Wicca changed it (so you can tell the 'ceremonial ponce' from the witchcraft! :lol: ), the rest is up to you. Any teachings would be nothing more than suggestions. But thats just my opinion.
(Maybe one day I'll put up a site, or write a book but I doubt it :lol: )

edit: I'm also not sure how much I agree with posting Traditional Witchcraft rituals. As I said, they are very personal in that no two are the same, but above that it's just plain Traditional to not speak of your rituals! In the old days you would be killed for just having herbs in your garden, never mind talking about the rituals you do! It's a very secretive tradition, and I feel it would lose something if everyone started posting their full-moon-rituals willy-nilly. Though I do share mine with friends, and occasionally (but rarely) my boyfriend :smile:

(I must admit I'm torn on this one.)

[midnightreflections]

I agree with Macha. It is more about experience than saying "this is how you do it" but it is possible to push people in the right direction to experience the experience.

I'm not for publishing rituals (and a lot are oath bound) as i believe rituals should come largly from yourself not a piece of paper, but again you can point people into the right direction. I actually never discuss my actual rituals with any outside of the group of people who actually attending that particular ritual (even with people who normanly attend them and for some reason didn't)

If we stuck to closly to the traditonal aspect we wouldn't be admitting we follow the path on a public message board either and I certainly wouldn't have given and attended talks about such matter. So even the traditional aspect moves on with modern times to some small degree

[Nitefalle]

Firstly, I'd just like to say thank you for posting on this path! So much of it jives with my personal beliefs and I've just never had the words to describe it. I will definitely be trying to learn more, see if maybe there's anyone in my area I can badger.

How about, instead of teaching or posting rituals, you could instead put out a list of what really IS tradition and what comes from Gardner...separate the ponce from the practical, if you will. Perhaps that might give people a good starting point to make their way down the truly traditional path.

~N~

[Nitefalle]

On stangs...is that something you find in nature or something you make? Should I make my own or just wait to find one? What would be a good wood to look for?

~N~

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Stangs, I believe are generally found in nature. They tend to be tall forked branches.

[midnightreflections]

stang are general found in nature - but can be made. As they were also used as walking sticks one comfortable for your height is ideal

Ash for woods ash is good for general and beginners use -though any wood will do if it feels right for you

[Calyx]

I'm curious...I DID have a stang, but it met a bad end when the girls got ahold of it one day. :rolleyes: But I have a piece of aspen that is not *quite* a fork, but does have a split. Do y'all think it would make a nice replacement, although not completely the definition of a stang? I really like this stick.....

Does this make sense?

[mothwench]

beech i say! :boing: but any wood that calls to you is good. i must say i've been rather drawn to ash lately, too. and rowan... and oak... and yew... :spinner:
oh, i took a picture of my stang today... if only i can figure out how to get it on my hardrive without asking someone else for help...
calyx: if it's not a stang, it's a staff, and staves are just as good. i always called mine a forked staff, until i learned from macha it's called a stang. :T
anyway, how do you mean, a split? is it wide enough to wedge a quartz into, do you think? oh, no, there's me thinking conception symbology again. :woah:

[Nantonos]

I'm curious...I DID have a stang, but it met a bad end when the girls got ahold of it one day. :rolleyes: But I have a piece of aspen that is not *quite* a fork, but does have a split. Do y'all think it would make a nice replacement, although not completely the definition of a stang?

So the one thing holding you back is that the fork is not forked enough? And then you answer your own queston:


I really like this stick.....

Does this make sense?

Yes. You should listen to yourself, you talk sense :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Great now Nantonos is encouraging people to actually listen whilst talking to themselves....:lol:

[Phae Talon]

I'm not sure about a teaching group on trad witchcraft... the thing is, there's so little written down that the majority of it is personal-preference, so everyone's practise of it differs. I think once you know the 'basics' and how Gardners Wicca changed it ... edit: I'm also not sure how much I agree with posting Traditional Witchcraft rituals. As I said, they are very personal in that no two are the same, but above that it's just plain Traditional to not speak of your rituals! In the old days you would be killed for just having herbs in your garden, never mind talking about the rituals you do! It's a very secretive tradition, and I feel it would lose something if everyone started posting their full-moon-rituals willy-nilly.

I have to agree ... traditional witchcraft is solitary by nature ... I don't think it would really work as a covened path (even if it was just a teaching/study circle). You have to find your own way, and do things the way that they work for you, and that is very unlikely to be the same as anyone else (I also have to admit to being a bit secretive about my workings and rituals).

--Phae

[Phae Talon]

How about, instead of teaching or posting rituals, you could instead put out a list of what really IS tradition and what comes from Gardner...separate the ponce from the practical, if you will. Perhaps that might give people a good starting point to make their way down the truly traditional path.

~N~

There are a couple of books out there separate the witchcraft out for you. Marian Green has written some great ones for beginners ... try Natural Witchcraft or A Witch Alone.

--Phae

[Calyx]

calyx: if it's not a stang, it's a staff, and staves are just as good. i always called mine a forked staff, until i learned from macha it's called a stang. :T
anyway, how do you mean, a split? is it wide enough to wedge a quartz into, do you think? oh, no, there's me thinking conception symbology again. :woah:

Meh, it's hard to describe! I'll try to take a picture of it this weekend so you can see what I mean. DH picked it up when we were in Colorado over Thanksgiving, as it is the *perfect* walking staff. :lol: It might be birch also. I don't know which of the two it is, but I am leaning towards the aspen. Perhaps if I can get a pic on you'll see what I mean.

It's a very visually appealing staff/stick/stang. KWIM? :) And, just dying to be decorated with my vast collection of ribbon and feathers!

[mucgwyrt]

Just to second that, Stangs are usually Ash for general use.
Some people use staffs and attach antlers to the top to create a fork, in reverance of Cenunnous.
Some people reserve a Blackthorn Stang for use soley when hexing, and in rituals on the Dark Moon.
I personally pine for a Rowan Stang, if I can ever find one big enough! :lol:

FYI I think I remember reading that "Stang" is the old word for "Staff" (I forget if its british, celtic or germanic though), and was used interchangabley to describe a general staff and a May-Pole :smile:

The most important thing to remember is - there is nothing you have to do. There are no rules, you don't need a stang, you dont need anything. With traditional witchcraft, its all up to you :)

[mucgwyrt]

uh-oh. :shaker: better not then. :lol:

:lol:

[Calyx]

Just to second that, Stangs are usually Ash for general use.
Some people use staffs and attach antlers to the top to create a fork, in reverance of Cenunnous.
Some people reserve a Blackthorn Stang for use soley when hexing, and in rituals on the Dark Moon.
I personally pine for a Rowan Stang, if I can ever find one big enough! :lol:



You know, I have an Ash tree in my front yard, that badly needs a trimming! :lol:
*begins making plans to look for forked branches*

[mucgwyrt]

:lol:
Poor tree, I can see what's coming! :D

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

You know, I have an Ash tree in my front yard, that badly needs a trimming! :lol:
*begins making plans to look for forked branches*

Just be sure to ask the tree. You don't want to repeat macha's experience and have angry tree guardians coming after you. :T

[mucgwyrt]

:rotfl: too right!

I had another dream last night actually... *trots off to post it*

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:rotfl: too right!

I had another dream last night actually... *trots off to post it*

And you've not already told us about it? ~starts shoving with broom over to other thread~ What will I ever do with you. :lol:

[mucgwyrt]

You can poke me? :fpartyhat

[LightDancer]

I agree with Macha. It is more about experience than saying "this is how you do it" but it is possible to push people in the right direction to experience the experience.

I'm not for publishing rituals (and a lot are oath bound) as i believe rituals should come largly from yourself not a piece of paper, but again you can point people into the right direction. I actually never discuss my actual rituals with any outside of the group of people who actually attending that particular ritual (even with people who normanly attend them and for some reason didn't)

If we stuck to closly to the traditonal aspect we wouldn't be admitting we follow the path on a public message board either and I certainly wouldn't have given and attended talks about such matter. So even the traditional aspect moves on with modern times to some small degree


oops my mistake :shhhh: I just don't want to mess up the essentials ya' know.

Jamie

[Calyx]

Just be sure to ask the tree. You don't want to repeat macha's experience and have angry tree guardians coming after you. :T

No, I don't want that!! :shaker: :holycow: Actually, we (my hubby and I) discussed last week how the Ash tree has grown very much and that it needed to be cut. I won't be doing the cutting myself, but you can bet that I am going to be watching carefully to make sure they don't mutilate it! :eyez:

Then, I will very respectfully ask if I may have one of its branches for a new stang, or staff or whichever I can get. :) Since I planted a fairy ring very near it, I think it will tell me yes!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Oh, well that's nice that you have a fairy ring next to it. I'm sure that has probably predisposed the ash spirit to be friendly towards you.

~can't wait til she has her own yard to plant trees and herb gardens and fairy rings~

[mucgwyrt]

What are fairy rings, mushrooms?

[Calyx]

No, violets. :)
With a background of ferns. My daughters and I put shiny things into the middle of it, and they are always gone the next morning. Once we found a perfect cup-shaped leaf that was full of liquid right in the middle of it, but I didn't drink it! I should say that the rest of the areas surrounding this leaf was bone-dry. There was no way it just popped up by itself. What do y'all think the liquid was? Just plain ol' water or fairy drink? :lol:

[Calyx]

What are fairy rings, mushrooms?

Duh--I totally misread this the first time! :doh2:
My fairy ring is a circle of violets that I planted. I once had a mushroom fairy ring but haven't had a mushroom ring pop up since I planted one of my own. :)

[Nitefalle]

Well, I would like a stang, and will definitely look for one when I hike, but in the mean time, I have this really cool spiked staff that I love, which I purchased at RenFair one year. Between the spikes at the top, I wove a thong of leather and hung beads and feathers from the ends. I think it will work great until the if/when moment I find a stang. I just have to haul it back from my parents house in Texas next month.

~N~

[mothwench]

No, violets. :)
With a background of ferns. My daughters and I put shiny things into the middle of it, and they are always gone the next morning. Once we found a perfect cup-shaped leaf that was full of liquid right in the middle of it, but I didn't drink it! I should say that the rest of the areas surrounding this leaf was bone-dry. There was no way it just popped up by itself. What do y'all think the liquid was? Just plain ol' water or fairy drink? :lol:

:foh: ambrosia. manna. the elexir of life. or.... rotten pear juice. elf pee. ya never can tell, with faeries. :lol:

i want to try this. :steppy: so basicly it's a ring of violets, with a ring outer ring of fern, or is the fern just in the background and the violets form the ring?
:huh:

edited to add: my pride and joy :D :lol: well, needs decorating, doesn't it?

[Calyx]

:foh: ambrosia. manna. the elexir of life. or.... rotten pear juice. elf pee. ya never can tell, with faeries. :lol:

:falloffch :crazylaug elf pee! Ha! Well, I would like to think that it was something nice, but you're right, you can never tell with them! However, if they poison us (or give us something nasty like pee :hairraise ) then there will be no more nice shiny objects for them so perhaps they should take that into consideration! :2G:



i want to try this. :steppy: so basicly it's a ring of violets, with a ring outer ring of fern, or is the fern just in the background and the violets form the ring?
:huh:

I dug up a bunch of wild violets that were probably going to be shredded by the lawnmowers down at the end of our street where the woods start. I planted them in a circle (what I call the fairy ring). They were quite scraggly at first, but they've really improved. They are now a seriously lush ring that's actually spreading. I originally had an outer ring of fern around them, but the part of the ring closest to the edge of the flower bed suffered an uprooting by one of the neighbor kids (both my kids and the neighbors are hell on any object they think is interesting!). Since the "accident", it's more of a background wall instead. We've been leaving little things in the middle of the ring for awhile now, and I have to admit, I have no idea where the stuff goes. It's gone every morning and we put it out in the evening. There's not enough time for any of the neighbor kids to get to it, so I am really starting to believe that there *are* some wee folk out there.... :shhhh:


my pride and joy :D :lol: well, needs decorating, doesn't it?


Hey, I like it! :colorful: That will look VERY cool with beads, feathers, leaves, etc. Are you going to carve on it at all?

[mothwench]

you bet! i just have to find the right runes and symbols, could take a while. i'm very attached to my staff, lol, stang i mean, so i'm scared of ruining it. it's not like i could just get another one to replace it. it's kind of like deciding about a tattoo for yourself, if you know what i mean. :lol:

[Calyx]

Yes, I know *exactly* what you mean! ;)

[mucgwyrt]

Thats a pwetty Stang Mothwench!
Mine's got a somewhat lopsided fork, but I like it anyway *pet pet* :D

[mothwench]

I like it anyway *pet pet* :D
:rotfl: tell me macha... is an insane sense of humour part of the path of the traditional witch? *cackle, screech* :crazylaug

:fpoke: <--- he's got a nice one, too.

[mucgwyrt]

absolutely, didn't I mention? :hehehehe:

[mucgwyrt]

Something else I should mention, which I've just had my memory jogged about -
When casting a circle, I always do it Widdershins (counter-clockwise, earthwise, using feminine energies) moving with the earth rather than against it (deosil/clockwise is sunwise, against the earth, using masculine energies).

:)

[Calyx]

Something else I should mention, which I've just had my memory jogged about -
When casting a circle, I always do it Widdershins (counter-clockwise, earthwise, using feminine energies) moving with the earth rather than against it (deosil/clockwise is sunwise, against the earth, using masculine energies).

:)

By ANY chance at all, are any of y'all left handed?
I always feel more comfortable with Widdershins. :)

[mucgwyrt]

nope, I'm a right hander :smile:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Okay, I understand the reasonings that modern Witches and Wiccans cast circles. But do you think it would have been traditional for trad witches to cast circles? And if so, would they have been the same reason?

(Ohhh, yeah me, I asked a good question. :T )

[mucgwyrt]

I was taught that once you're truly a proficient witch, you'll have no need for circles. Circles aren't only to protect, they are to open a gate between this world and the Otherworld/the spirit realm. Once you are proficient, the gate will always be open.

I doubt the "old" witches did, no. But I enjoy it :smile:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well I suppose that as long as you enjoy it. The whole concept never made sense to me. But I'm weird like that I guess, considering neither do grimoires, or magical tools, or any of that other stuff. I'm firmly convinced that your spiritual beliefs should rely only on you and that nothing extra is necessary.

[Calyx]

I was taught that once you're truly a proficient witch, you'll have no need for circles. Circles aren't only to protect, they are to open a gate between this world and the Otherworld/the spirit realm. Once you are proficient, the gate will always be open.

I doubt the "old" witches did, no. But I enjoy it :smile:

I've also been taught this. I think that it makes sense.
Like you, Macha, I enjoy it. But I don't do it all the time. In fact, I'd say I only cast circle maybe 40% of the time. I just don't always feel a need for it. :)

[mucgwyrt]

I agree, and thats the aim of it all.
However I dont have an infallable memory (far from it) and the main thing I find about circles, is doing some kind of 'ritual' (i.e. casting) calms down the monkey-mind as Keithdragon calls it. Its SO much easier to meditate and scry etc when I've cast a circle :smile:

[mucgwyrt]

I rarely have time :rolleyes:

[Calyx]

Well I suppose that as long as you enjoy it. The whole concept never made sense to me. But I'm weird like that I guess, considering neither do grimoires, or magical tools, or any of that other stuff. I'm firmly convinced that your spiritual beliefs should rely only on you and that nothing extra is necessary.

When you say grimoires, how do you mean it in this context? As in, you don't believe in them, don't have one, what? :)

[Calyx]

I rarely have time :rolleyes:

Yes, that's a problem of mine as well. When you lack time, it cuts down on the casting of circles! Small children seem to have that effect.... :lol:
If I had more time, I'd cast more circles.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I don't have an infalliable memory either, I just figure that if it's important, I'll remember it.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

When you say grimoires, how do you mean it in this context? As in, you don't believe in them, don't have one, what? :)

Don't have one, and don't see the need for one. I mean grimorie as in book where I write down all sorts of info. Like rituals or spells (though I don't cast spells), divination techniques/results, herbal info, info about deities/pantheons...that sort of stuff.

[mothwench]

the main reason i keep a grimoire (actually at the moment it's a binder full of stuff. :rolleyes: but i mean to make a nice bound book sometime.) is to keep track of my spiritual journey and the alterations i go through while on my path. it's amazing to see the difference between the stuff i wrote just a few years ago and the stuff i write now.

also, i think a grimoire is a good thing to pass on to kids, grandkids, neices and nephews. and that's the first step to keeping a tradition, or starting one.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Oh, I agree that I think those are great reasons. I guess my thinking is more like that of the Celts. The commited their traditions and folklore to memory and passed them on that way. It seems a very nice way to handle it.

[mucgwyrt]

I would love it if my chldren-to-come one day took and interest and wanted to read all that I;ve learnt :D

[Phae Talon]

By ANY chance at all, are any of y'all left handed?

Nope ... I'm a righttie ... working on being ambidextrous, though :)

--Phae

[Phae Talon]

Okay, I understand the reasonings that modern Witches and Wiccans cast circles. But do you think it would have been traditional for trad witches to cast circles? And if so, would they have been the same reason?


Well, I don't really think it would have been nessecary for them to cast circles. Their lives were a lot different from ours. They grew up learning how to still their minds through the monotony of daily chores (which is why the whole spiritual house cleaning thing works SO well :) ).

For me ... I do it once in a while. Usually when want to perform a formal ritual (like on Samhain, for instance). But usually, for most things, I don't bother (I personally think that it is a little creepy to always have the watchtowers glancing over my shoulder ... but that is just me).

--Phae

[Nitefalle]

So your altar is the earth and sometimes you draw a circle....do you use the stang to direct energy when casting a circle? I read in a book (I think it was Scottish Witchcraft by Buckland, but I could be wrong) that the stang is used to cast the circle and then sort of implanted in the earth in the middle of the circle and that sort of serves as a pseudo altar, since it's decorated and such. Is that how you use it?

~N~

PS - Thanks, Morag, for asking the question about the circles. It had been preying on my mind and I hadn't gotten to posting it yet.

[Mab]

I am SO glad this thread was started. I've had such a hard time explaining to ppl that I'm not really an eclectic & certainly not a Wiccan, but studying to follow older ways. THIS is what I was trying to describe.... traditional craft! I'm certainly still new (about a year or so) into my studies, but I just never have been comfortable with all the ceremonial stuff I read in wiccan books. I thought I was just wierd. But now I know it's not just me and I'm not alone! YAY!!

I realize that teaching a class on this is darned near impossible b/c it's so personal, but (if I can put my $0.02 in ), I really think a study/discussion group would be great!

:colorful:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I am SO glad this thread was started. I've had such a hard time explaining to ppl that I'm not really an eclectic & certainly not a Wiccan, but studying to follow older ways. THIS is what I was trying to describe.... traditional craft! I'm certainly still new (about a year or so) into my studies, but I just never have been comfortable with all the ceremonial stuff I read in wiccan books. I thought I was just wierd. But now I know it's not just me and I'm not alone! YAY!!

I realize that teaching a class on this is darned near impossible b/c it's so personal, but (if I can put my $0.02 in ), I really think a study/discussion group would be great!

:colorful:

There is a class going on about Kitchen Witchery, which many consider to be a type of traditional witchcraft. Try looking into that course.

[Nantonos]

Yes, that's a problem of mine as well. When you lack time, it cuts down on the casting of circles! Small children seem to have that effect.... :lol:
If I had more time, I'd cast more circles.

This reminded me of two things. Firstly, some differences betweeen wiccans and heathens that aefentid posted a link to for her heathenry class. Although the comparisons is somewhat stereotyped to make the point, its illuminating none the less. One of the differences was the amount of time spent in elaborate ritual preparations as opposed to actually doing stuff in the prepared space.
http://www.ecauldron.com/frpentahammer.php

Secondly it reminds me of the process by which I moved from 'what the books say' and 'I should be Wiccan' to 'what I do' and 'I am not Wiccan'. There was a lot of rationalization - I should really do such and such, but insert excuse here and a lot of guilt, even, about not doing things 'properly afterwards. A total dissonance between the actuality and the theory, pulling in opposite directions.

What helped was to step back and realize that I had seen several 'flat circles' - full on rituals with all the trimmings, but which totally lacked any sense of charge, of presence, and felt rather more like watching a bad play. And that conversely I had felt charge and presence and aliveness and driving sense of purpose in other contexts where the ritual paraphenalia were not available and would have been inappropriate to use.

It also helped me to study up on the history of wicca, where it came from (a lot of masonic and ceremonial magic in there, as it turns out), what exactly it was like when Gardner and Valiente and Crowther were first doing it (they didn't have an eightfold wheel, but gradually added festivals over time), where the roots of these people were, what the background of the 'New Forest coven' was (Rosicrucian theatre and spiritualism). It helped to discover that 'Eliphaz Levi', who had written a book on magic, had only ever performed one ritual in his life - an armchair expert.

I mention all this because I see the same dissonances in other people from time to time (and especially on this thread). So consider whether you don't cast circles because it would be better to but there isn't the time/the space/not enough people - or, in fact, whether its because you don't see them as useful or even as getting in the way.

Consider whether the reason you have a spiral bound notebook with other bits of paper stuffed into it, or a directory on your computer with all sorts of things added all the time, rather than a leather bound volume hand lettered in colored inks and magnificent lettering, is because there isn't time right now and you really should sort through it and write it all out,someday - or whether its because your practice is fluid, changing, you don't have a single set of holy writ that is to be accepted unquestioningly and that such a leather bound tome would rapidly gain the extra bits, crossed out parts (you would be less likely to change such a nicely written text, though, so besides being a useless waste of time it might be actually harmful to growth) and online additions.

And give yourselves the permission to do such things as you are in fact doing.

[Nitefalle]

:hugz: :hugz: :hugz: for Nantonos

~N~

[Phae Talon]

So your altar is the earth and sometimes you draw a circle....do you use the stang to direct energy when casting a circle? I read in a book (I think it was Scottish Witchcraft by Buckland, but I could be wrong) that the stang is used to cast the circle and then sort of implanted in the earth in the middle of the circle and that sort of serves as a pseudo altar, since it's decorated and such. Is that how you use it?

That is a good idea, but that isn't how I use mine (I don't have a yard and I don't think my landlord would appriciate holes in the floor! :lol: ). Right now, my stang is for decoration mostly ... kind of like an altar that represents the changing of the seasons.

--Phae

[Mab]

There is a class going on about Kitchen Witchery, which many consider to be a type of traditional witchcraft. Try looking into that course.

Am all signed up! *bounces up & down* Very excited!

[Phae Talon]

I mention all this because I see the same dissonances in other people from time to time (and especially on this thread). So consider whether you don't cast circles because it would be better to but there isn't the time/the space/not enough people - or, in fact, whether its because you don't see them as useful or even as getting in the way.

Consider whether the reason you have a spiral bound notebook with other bits of paper stuffed into it, or a directory on your computer with all sorts of things added all the time, rather than a leather bound volume hand lettered in colored inks and magnificent lettering, is because there isn't time right now and you really should sort through it and write it all out,someday - or whether its because your practice is fluid, changing, you don't have a single set of holy writ that is to be accepted unquestioningly and that such a leather bound tome would rapidly gain the extra bits, crossed out parts (you would be less likely to change such a nicely written text, though, so besides being a useless waste of time it might be actually harmful to growth) and online additions.

And give yourselves the permission to do such things as you are in fact doing.


Wow ... you sound like you just read my mind! I have been (off and on) dealing with some issues of "Why aren't I Wiccan?" This thread has been really helpful in putting things back into perspective ... your post in particular :) Thanks

--Phae

[Calyx]

Nantonos,
You are so right on the money! A few further thoughts here.....
I *do* enjoy the ritual of casting circle. And, if I *didn't* have kids, I would have the luxury of indulging in it more often. However, you are correct in the fact that I don't really need one to perform magick. Some of my most powerful and effective work was not performed anywhere near a circle! :) So, it's something that I really don't *need to do*, but that I enjoy doing.
And also, my path is what works for me. I am not a practicioner of Wicca because it just never really felt right to me. And I don't need a lot of tools, or an altar (though if I am taking the time to cast a circle, I will make one), or even that much ritual to what I do.

My practice comes from the heart. And my heart knows what's right for me. One reason that I remain solitary is the fact that I really don't feel the need to justify my practices to anyone else, or have them tell me I'm not doing something right. THIS is my spirituality. THIS is my path. Very few people use stangs (maybe don't even know what they are!). That's just one example. There are many, many more, I'm sure! :lol:

And my BOS is a big pile of papers, clippings, etc. that I will eventually transfer to my beautiful book I got for Christmas. But what's in it will always be from my heart, and that will never change. And, I will be very selective of what's in there for that reason.

I hope that makes sense. :lol:

[Nantonos]

Some of my most powerful and effective work was not performed anywhere near a circle! :) So, it's something that I really don't *need to do*, but that I enjoy doing.

Well, thats a perfectly fine reason.


And my BOS is a big pile of papers, clippings, etc. that I will eventually transfer to my beautiful book I got for Christmas. But what's in it will always be from my heart, and that will never change. And, I will be very selective of what's in there for that reason.

I hope that makes sense. :lol:

Absolutely.

[mucgwyrt]

Nantonos - Yes I agree, I dont believe that circles are essential (and I do believe they are probably a modern invention though I've not looked into it, and that village witches would have probably thought it a silly notion :lol: )



So your altar is the earth and sometimes you draw a circle....do you use the stang to direct energy when casting a circle? I read in a book (I think it was Scottish Witchcraft by Buckland, but I could be wrong) that the stang is used to cast the circle and then sort of implanted in the earth in the middle of the circle and that sort of serves as a pseudo altar, since it's decorated and such. Is that how you use it?
I dont 'draw' my circle with anything, though I can't think of a better tool to use if thats what you want to do :)
My Stang sits in different positions depending on what I'm doing, but usually in the North. I am at the centre of my circle, as I believe that is where all the energy is directed, and that there is nothing more sacred than life; than myself, conceited as that sounds! :lol:
Anway, thats just a personal thing, everyone does it differently I expect :smile:



I realize that teaching a class on this is darned near impossible b/c it's so personal, but (if I can put my $0.02 in ), I really think a study/discussion group would be great!

I think we already have one, right here :D
If you have any suggestions of specific discussion or something you'd like to study in particular, go for it :smile:

[midnightreflections]

Just to let ye all know

I an leaving this site (leaving in the sense I probably won't be back for months and then only pop in and go again not leaving in the sense of i'm never never never returning)

I've just got to busy with the teaching side of it and the research side I'm involved in and I have to find time to fit the rest of my life in lol

But anyone want to email me go ahead the door is always open :)

[Phae Talon]

I dont 'draw' my circle with anything, though I can't think of a better tool to use if thats what you want to do :)
My Stang sits in different positions depending on what I'm doing, but usually in the North. I am at the centre of my circle, as I believe that is where all the energy is directed, and that there is nothing more sacred than life; than myself, conceited as that sounds! :lol:
Anway, thats just a personal thing, everyone does it differently I expect :smile:

I don't think it sounds conceited ... it sounds very much like how I do things :) It just seems natural for me to be the center of the circle.

--Phae

[LightDancer]

Me again :lol: I was just curious about a couple things. What is the best way to get in touch with the ancestors? Also I live in a place which was probably sacred to the Native people (Cree, Blackfoot, and Peigan). I don't want to call on ancestors of the land that are not my ancestors. Someone once told me that my homeland and my ancestors blood which is coursing through my veins was enough, and that because of that I wouldn't end up calling forth the ancestors of the Native peoples that lived here...is that correct? Also is the Red Meal a necessity? One more question, when it comes to seasonal celebrations, how does one go about that sort of a rite?

Sorry if these are bad questions

Jamie

[Nitefalle]

Looking over a couple of websites on traditional witchcraft and hedgewitchery, a lot of them said that the particular focus of hedgewitchery was astral projection, out of body journeys, rescuing lost parts of a soul, and other things that seem to me to be very shamanic in nature. Also, because of these practices, hedgewitches are often associated with birds, most often the raven and the goose. Any thoughts/comments on this?

~N~

[Mab]

well.........I don't know much about that, but I do know that 9 times outta 10, I get all my messages from crows or ravens. So, maybe I'm a traditional/hedgewitch & didn't know it yet?? :lol:

I just wanted to say that y'all have done an excellent job of saying what I've been trying to say for a year now. Everyone seems to think if I say I'm a witch I must be Wiccan OR ELSE!! But here, everyone has sort of described exactly how I've always felt about witchcraft, and it's soooo goooooood to find that I may be solitary (by choice) but I'm not alone!

(((hugs to everyone))) :floating:

[LightDancer]

They were stupid questions weren't they :foh:

Jamie

[Mab]

NO! They were great questions, though I don't have a clue how to contact your ancestors or even what the Red Meal is, so I can't answer!

Silly...the only stupid question is the one that goes un-asked!

[Calyx]

Looking over a couple of websites on traditional witchcraft and hedgewitchery, a lot of them said that the particular focus of hedgewitchery was astral projection, out of body journeys, rescuing lost parts of a soul, and other things that seem to me to be very shamanic in nature. Also, because of these practices, hedgewitches are often associated with birds, most often the raven and the goose. Any thoughts/comments on this?

~N~
Nitefalle, I saw that too. I think it was off of that link Chyrssi1 had about kitchen witches, wasn't it? I thought that that was quite interesting, because that's a different take than what *I* thought about trad or hedge witchcraft(and I consider myself to be one! :) ). Although, this could be because I don't astrally travel. I think you can look for parts of the soul via meditation, as I guess I consider some of my meditations to be soul searching, and I sometimes have visions while doing so. Some have been of me, others, I don't really know what they've meant.
It stands to reason, from their thinking then, why hedgewitches are or were associated with birds. Also, the raven and the goose were probably some of the most commonly found birds around. You know, farmyards, and forests and such. For some reason, I've been paying closer attention to birds lately myself, and found that the heron is everywhere I've been lately. I've seen at least 2 or 3 a day for the last two weeks, which is unusual, and have come to the conclusion that this bird is meant for me as a spirit guide.
Now that goes off topic a little into shamanism, but they do seem to be tied together a little. I think that they could be linked together in the fact that both are very nature/earth oriented. It seems to be a sort of progression for me in that direction as I become more knowledgeable about certain things.

What about that? :)

[Calyx]

They were stupid questions weren't they :foh:

Jamie

I think a lot of those questions are probably better off in the Shaman section. I bet Nighthawk could help you with them! Or maybe Shanti... :) I just don't know any of the answers to the ancestor thing or the Red Meal either.

As far as celebrating seasons, I follow the Wheel a bit, and follow my heart a bit. Lots of decorating with natural stuff--flowers, pine cones, holly, pine, feathers, rocks, shells, etc. basically, whatever grabs my fancy!

[LightDancer]

Maybe i'm reading to much into the Meadows of Elfhame site;) I'm just terrified of messing up. I need to read more than just one source right;)

Jamie

[Calyx]

Maybe i'm reading to much into the Meadows of Elfhame site;) I'm just terrified of messing up. I need to read more than just one source right;)

Jamie

What's that? :huh: Is it a website?

But, yes, read, read, read! :) Then, practice, practice, practice and make good on what you've learned.....

[Phae Talon]

Maybe i'm reading to much into the Meadows of Elfhame site;) I'm just terrified of messing up. I need to read more than just one source right;)

Jamie

It is definitely a good idea to read up more than one site for your information. I have read the site you are refering to, but it is honestly the first I have heard of many of the things in that particular definition of hedgewitch (I have heard the flying ointment tale before, though) ... in the books I have read, they take the literal meaning of hedgewitch rather than reading something astral into it. Not to say that the hedgerider definition isn't right to some, but one person's experience is not the be all and end all of the craft.

--Phae

[Nitefalle]

Nitefalle, I saw that too. I think it was off of that link Chyrssi1 had about kitchen witches, wasn't it? I thought that that was quite interesting, because that's a different take than what *I* thought about trad or hedge witchcraft(and I consider myself to be one! :)
Actually, I just googled for traditional witch/hedgewitch. I didn't get too many site results, but the main sites that were still working all seemed to have extremely similar information, so I'm assuming that they either sort of copied off of each other or are all getting this info from the same source. Either of which is most likely a result of the lack of info out there about real hedgewitchery and traditional witchcraft because it's so personal and/or secretive.


For some reason, I've been paying closer attention to birds lately myself, and found that the heron is everywhere I've been lately.
In the past year, as I've come more into myself as a witch and, unbeknownst to me, closer to the traditional path, I've really noticed birds more as well in the sense that I really see how often they are around us. I usually smile to them or say hi (if no one's around, lol) and I've noticed a lot less poop on my car! I, too, love the heron and the barn owl, but I don't feel as if they are totems or guides. I don't have any guides of any sort as of yet, except me own brain and heart.


Now that goes off topic a little into shamanism, but they do seem to be tied together a little. I think that they could be linked together in the fact that both are very nature/earth oriented. It seems to be a sort of progression for me in that direction as I become more knowledgeable about certain things.
When I first learned about shamanism, I wanted to try it and was fascinated by it, but I quickly learned that I am not disciplined enough for it, let alone talented enough for anything like astral projection :lol: However, lately I've been noticing that my deja vu has been more frequent, my dreams have been more focused in the sense that they've been true or very related to my spirituality (which is very rare for me) and I'm just noticing things more. So maybe this is a sign that , as I consciously start down the path of the hedgewitch, I'm coming closer to being able to peer once more down the path of the shaman, I don't know. I'll just see where it takes me and let you know.

~N~

[Mab]

Maybe i'm reading to much into the Meadows of Elfhame site;) I'm just terrified of messing up. I need to read more than just one source right;)

Jamie

Honey, don't be scared of messing up. Go with your intuition & don't worry so. I firmly believe Spirt (well...all spirits) are very forgiving as long as you acknowledge the mistake--especially when you're new to the practice, whatever it may be. JMO

[mothwench]

question: are your circles portable, that is, do they move around with you when you do? or can you step in and out of your circle?

[Phae Talon]

question: are your circles portable, that is, do they move around with you when you do? or can you step in and out of your circle?

That is a tough one. When I do cast a circle, I tend to make it big enough that if I have to move around, there is room to do it inside the circle. Anything that would make me need to leave the circle (such as forgetting something), I just deal with ... I don't like to stop in the middle of things as I feel it screws up my focus.

That being said, I think that SOME circles can be portable (such as if I were to cast a circle around a candle while it worked its magick that I didn't need to be inside of) ... while others (like big ritual circles) are probably best left stationary.

Make sense?

--Phae

[mucgwyrt]

I would love for my circle to be portable (and hopefully one day it will be), but with all thats gone on recently, I'm too much of a wuss to try incase I get a booty-whooping from Mr Yew :bigredblu:

[mothwench]

well, that's just what i mean, portable circles that move around with you , spheres of protection if you will. this is something i'm working on, but i don't even know if it's possible at all.

[Nantonos]

well, that's just what i mean, portable circles that move around with you , spheres of protection if you will. this is something i'm working on, but i don't even know if it's possible at all.

Sure its possible. General relativity is your freind. The circle on the ground is moving, too, relative to the rest of the universe like the sun.... instead of thinking "a circle that moves, tricky" think "a circle that is stationary with respect to me".

Suggest making it a sphere not just a circle, though.

[mothwench]

that's what i try and do, make a bubble. i'm still trying to decide whether i should visualise the bottom of the sphere where my feet are, or if that's where the middle of the sphere should be... which would mean the bubble would be half under-ground.
ummm... you know what i mean? kind of hard to explain. :lol:

[FeatherGoblinglimmer]

You know i've been trying to define what my path is, and my beliefs and i am now a little bit closer to it now. Thankies everyone. The circle of elfhame is v. interesting

[Nantonos]

that's what i try and do, make a bubble. i'm still trying to decide whether i should visualise the bottom of the sphere where my feet are, or if that's where the middle of the sphere should be... which would mean the bubble would be half under-ground.

I liked the idea of it being half underground. Otherwise the place of contact with the ground is a dot and you can't move your legs to walk, sit, lie down, etc.

[Phae Talon]

well, that's just what i mean, portable circles that move around with you , spheres of protection if you will. this is something i'm working on, but i don't even know if it's possible at all.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Shields. Yes, I do believe in those (and being an empath, it is REALLY helpful to be able to use them), and though it takes a LOT of practice, it is very possible and very common for Witches/Pagans to use them.

A lot of people use the magick bubble version. I, myself, find that a bubble is not strong enough. Right now I am working with a mirrored suit of armour-type of visualization. It is working pretty well for me ... most importantly, I find, is to create your shield from your center. That is your strength ... your core.

Also, if you are going to be keeping it up throughout the day (or indefinitely), it is best to 'charge' it periodically. Which really just means to renew the visualization.

Hope that helps ;) If you have anymore questions, let me know :D

--Phae

[Calyx]

well, that's just what i mean, portable circles that move around with you , spheres of protection if you will. this is something i'm working on, but i don't even know if it's possible at all.

Yes, shielding is correct.
I do it all the time! :)
I visualize a sphere around me that moves with me everywhere I go. I have never thought about it being partway underground, as I visualize mine as something fluid that moves with me and conforms to any shape I make.
Also, the sphere varies in it's makeup. I usually utilize some form of the elements that can be visualized as a solid, or a semi solid. But not always. Sometimes it's just energy manifested as light.

For example: at various times, I am in a sphere of the following: fire, molten lava (one of my favorites! :) ), steam, ice, etc. I have many more, but don't want to give all my secrets away.;)

PM me if you want to know my technique, as I think it's pretty effective.

[mucgwyrt]

I like the bubble idea, I'll have to try it.

Calyx; funnily enough I always find wind is the most powerful protector for me :smile:

[Calyx]

I like the bubble idea, I'll have to try it.

Calyx; funnily enough I always find wind is the most powerful protector for me :smile:

Macha,
I am quite fond of wind myself, but can't figure out a tangible visual for the shielding!
I can only think of little tornadoes, which doesn't quite seem right. :lol:

[moonmorgan]

Thanks macha for starting this. As I mentioned to you when I gave you some Karma :) It is nice to see people talking about Traditional Witchcraft without denouncing or putting down Wicca.

I've been to the elfhame site before but am going to check it out again. If anyone has any other websites they would recommend, please do.

[Phae Talon]

Thanks macha for starting this. As I mentioned to you when I gave you some Karma :) It is nice to see people talking about Traditional Witchcraft without denouncing or putting down Wicca.

You know, that's funny, I don't think I have ever seen a website that is about Traditional or Hedgecraft that has anything at all to say about Wicca other than Traditional Witchcraft is something completely different.

Do you find it a common occurance that traditional witches rag on Wicca?

--Phae

[Calyx]

You know, that's funny, I don't think I have ever seen a website that is about Traditional or Hedgecraft that has anything at all to say about Wicca other than Traditional Witchcraft is something completely different.

Do you find it a common occurance that traditional witches rag on Wicca?

--Phae

erm, it seems to me that it's often vice versa. :eyez: That's been just my experience though. But, I've seen enough derogatory things about trad witchcraft that it makes me cautious about saying this is what I practice(when I say anything about it at all!). This thread is the most open I've ever been about it. :chatty: Ever!

[Phae Talon]

erm, it seems to me that it's often vice versa. :eyez: That's been just my experience though. But, I've seen enough derogatory things about trad witchcraft that it makes me cautious about saying this is what I practice(when I say anything about it at all!). This thread is the most open I've ever been about it. :chatty: Ever!

It gets a little sticky because BTW can commonly stand for British Traditional Wicca (Gards, as I understand it), so in using that abbreviation, you tend to find a lot of people with biases against Trad Wiccans. Though, there are multiple definitions of Hedgewitch too ... :whatgives

I just usually figure that if people are really interested in what I do, then they will ask me specific questions about it.

--Phae

[WynterWynd]

This is the first time I've really spoken about the path I have found myself travelling in all the time I've been here, I think! My path is one of the Traditional Witch. Well, as traditional as you can get - every traditional-witch's path is different, and not much is written about it. I was lucky enough to be welcomed by a witch-family here in britain, and to learn from them :)

I try to stick to a "traditional" witchcraft, as opposed to 1950s Wicca etc. Not because I feel its any more valid, but because I much prefer the simplicity of the Pre-Gardnerian witchcraft strain. "Traditional" in this sense refers to a witchraft pre-wicca, the family tradition, hedgewitchery.

For example, I do not use an alter - the earth is the alter upon which I live :smile:.
I do use a Stang however (although I'm looking for one made of Rowan, at the moment I use a make-do Stang!) which is similar to an alter in many respects; it is a long staff with a forked top, used to symbolise the unity of the masculine (the pole - day, the sun) and the feminine (the fork, night, the moon) as well The Horned God, Cernunnous.

My Stang is present whenever I cast a circle, or do anything witchy. It is a part of me :smile:
I believe my future Stang has a guardian which I have met in a dream, and he will look out for me when I open the door into the Otherworld when I cast a circle, and in my magical life in general. I'm not sure about my Make-Do-Stang, as I've not committed to it so much; I've not created a bond with it so much.

At Samhain I will my decorate my Stang with Duck feathers to symbolise death and life, at Ostara I decorate it with daffodils and goose feathers, on MayDay I will decorate it with fresh tulips and with cherry blossoms if I come across any, at Harvest I will hang corn and orange autumn leaves from the fork. In between, a piece of red ribbon (symbolising the blood of The Mother) and several Goose feathers (showing my not so traditional Shamanic side; the goose is my spirit animal! :smile: ) hang from the fork, along with whatever I feel is relevant in my life at the time, e.g. there is currently a strand of moonstone chips, representing my new found affinity with crystals an their energies, as well the piece of moonstone I gave the Yew Spirit as a peace offering an apology.

My Stang is shod with a single iron nail, which I have read on the few Traditional Witch websites I have come accross that some say is to stop its powers from escaping from the bottom!! I personally believe this is a silly notion!! My own Stang is shod though, because Iron is made of the earth, and I feel it increases the Stang's (and by extension, my own) connection with the earth. Some witches keep it stood in a pot of Earth which they refill every full moon, though I personally don't because its not practical for me.

Unlike Wicca, there are no real 'rules' to follow. I celebrate whatever festival if/when I feel is best for me (e.g. I celebrate Beltane on MayDay - this year MayDay is the 3rd of May, and I choose to celebrate Samhain on the Dark Moon which falls nearest to halloween). There is no 'Witch Rede' - the closest thing to the notion of the 'threefold' law is that if you feel guilt over your actions, your energies will return to you. If you do not feel guilty over whatever you have done, you are free of consequence; your energies will not linger and will not affect you. I dont know how many un-traditional witches would agree, but it has proved itself to me.

What else? I dont use an athame, because they are not practical. As I understand it, an Athame was a notion which Gardner brought back from his time in Malaysia. Instead I use one hand-decorated folding penknife for all my work - from carving into candles to collecting herbs - and so I bond with it better than I would an ornate knife I never use.

My one downfall, as I have said before, is that I love scrying! Traditional witches I believe, use pools or bowls of water, whereas I'm rather attached to my Obsidian Ball and my swanky new quartz pendulum :D

I believe and work with things like chakras and auras, but see these things as seperate from Witchcraft. The pentagram has little meaning for me, it is from the Quabbala.

I embrace the dark side of life, the Dark moon etc, and have no fear of spell casting if I so desire. I do not hide from the dark as many 'fluffy' wiccans do (not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.)

I have a BOS, though that is not a part of traditional witchcraft, as most old witches could not read or write - theirs was an oral tradition. However, I am blessed with the ability to read, and put it to good use :D

I can't think of anything else, though I will mention it if I remember anything :D
I have much more to learn :)
You have managed to put in words (alot of you) what I haven't been able to explain to alot of people (including my DH, why I don't feel the need for full blown rituals like he wants/needs to do)
I've never thought of myself has Wiccan...could never put up with, see the neccessity for all the pomp and 'fluff' (for lack of better word right now.....I'm tired:p )
What is do, I feel is 'on the need'....'of the moment'...and from the heart. Something no book has ever been able to replicate (not that I've found if there is one)
My 'altar' is most deffinatly not a 'working altar' .......its an.....altar of decorations, crystals I've collected and love...cauldrons which I fein for:lol:
But when I 'work'...I work with what is at hand...and when I 'feel' the timing is right.
I've also never understood the need to follow the Rede..it always just seemed like another kind of 'commandments' to make people behave...or to be scared of the concequences of their actions.

If you do not feel guilty over whatever you have done, you are free of consequence; your energies will not linger and will not affect you That is so well put, so how I feel about your (mine, who evers) 'paybacks' for magic...that if you do, what do and have no remorse or guilt in your actions, then it will not follow or come back on you.

Well, the dryer has broke my train of thought...I have been de-railed for the night:lol:...but I will be back in here...what a wonderful thread!:)

[mucgwyrt]

Macha,
I am quite fond of wind myself, but can't figure out a tangible visual for the shielding!
I can only think of little tornadoes, which doesn't quite seem right. :lol:

That's what I visualise, myself in the eye of the storm as it were. Its the most protective feeling visualisation I've ever found :smile:

I'm so glad this thread is helping people find their path, it makes me feel all squishy inside!! :lol:

I do find Traditional Witches are derogatory towards Wiccans, and also visa versa funnily enough. Wiccans dont like having their historical roots knocked (the one's which can't accept Gardner's creation of Wiccan anyway), and Traditional Witches tend to believe Wiccan's are silly and "Buffy-esque" (as in, the teeny bopper vampire slayer). But what can you do, eh?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'm so glad this thread is helping people find their path, it makes me feel all squishy inside!! :lol:

Squishy, squishy, squishy! :T

[mucgwyrt]

Yoooou think you're so funny :geez:

:lol:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:bigredgri No, not funny just cute. very, very cute.

:cutie:

[mucgwyrt]

Cute like a bouncy blobby :bouncybob (which is CUTE!)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:fishsmack Noooo. Cuter. Much cuter.

[mucgwyrt]

Hmmm... as cute as Mr Moped? :moped:

That fish makes me think of the time my boyfriend chased me round the kitchen with a fish wearing another fishes head. "larry and garry" I think he called them :wah: o' the trauma, THE TRAUMA!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Hmmm... as cute as Mr Moped? :moped:

Nope. Even cuter than Mr. Moped. :steppy:


That fish makes me think of the time my boyfriend chased me round the kitchen with a fish wearing another fishes head. "larry and garry" I think he called them :wah: o' the trauma, THE TRAUMA!

Well that explains a lot. :tongueout

[mucgwyrt]

Nope. Even cuter than Mr. Moped. :steppy:



Well that explains a lot. :tongueout

:o Fine then you be like that lil' Ms. Cutey :razz: :razz: :razz:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:bigredgri Ahh come on you know ya love me. :hugz:

How could you not. I'm cute! :cutie:

[mucgwyrt]

:durrrr:

(lookie what I found --> :stooges: )

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well aren't you just super-spiffy. :nicetie:

[mucgwyrt]

Uh-huh. Sorry, I thought you knew!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Of course I did. Do you think I, as cute as I am, could possibly be friends with someone who's not super-spiffy? :geez: I'm shocked and dismayed.

[mucgwyrt]

Bless those super high standards, Morag! :smoochypo

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:bouncysmi Welcome.

And yes, even my husband says my standards are really high. He gets so aggrevated because I expect everyone to live up to my standards. But it's only because I know my standards are the right ones. :nonono:

[mucgwyrt]

Absolutely. :steppy:
My boyfriend says I have high standards too, but he's just jealous coz he can't get his as high as me :toofless

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Absolutely. :steppy:
My boyfriend says I have high standards too, but he's just jealous coz he can't get his as high as me :toofless

I think that's my DH's problem too. :uhhuhuh:

~ponders what all this has to do with traditional witchcraft~ :eyebrow:

[mucgwyrt]

I think that's my DH's problem too. :uhhuhuh:

~ponders what all this has to do with traditional witchcraft~ :eyebrow:

Well we're having traditional relationship problems aren't we?! AND we're witches! :heybaby:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well we're having traditional relationship problems aren't we?! AND we're witches! :heybaby:

:hmmmmm: Good points.

Although, I'm only a witch because I'm a gingerwitch. I don't actually practice witchcraft. :spaceman:

[mucgwyrt]

You just have to make life difficult dont you? :rolleyes:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Damn, you figured me out. DH says that too though. I always tell him the only reason I married him was to make his life difficult. He thinks I do quite the job at accomplishing my goal. It's my raison d’être!

[mucgwyrt]

Yup, if you're gonna do something, do it right! :D

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Exactly! :bigblue:

[Phae Talon]

Ok, so back to the subject of traditional witchcraft ... ;)

I decided that since the fork in my stang is rather lopsided, that I wanted some deer antlers to attach to the top ... my FIL is going to get me a pair (though, he doesn't know what they are for) ... he told me that it is nearly impossible to find shed antlers in the woods because mice and other critters eat them for the calcium (didn't know that). He hunts (for food), and will give me the ones off of one of the bucks that he gets this season.

This bugged me a little bit, but since it is for food and not trophy hunting, I figured it was ok ... what I want to do is a little spell or some such to honor and thank the buck who gives up his life and antlers for me (and my family) ... any ideas on what might be appropriate?

--Phae

[mucgwyrt]

I honestly always thought that thanking the animal after you've killed it without its consent was a tad... tasteless. But thats just my opinion.

I would, I suppose, bury any of the remains of the antlers in the woods with some kind of offering (something important to you), maybe with some incense.

[mothwench]

well, an animal isn't going to give it's consent because it has no concept of death. a sheep might consent to being shorn, and a cow might consent to being milked, but no animal is going to give its meat willingly. on that subject i did actually fine a buck shed in the woods late this autumn, but it was just a small one.

in any case, phae, i think that if the animal is going to be eaten, then that's fine and good. :) i personnally would much rather be a deer in the woods that ends up being shot by a hunter than a cow or pig on a farm waiting to be hearded into a truck and then driven off to a big slaughterhouse. i'd really love to get a hunting license. maybe i will one of these days.

[mucgwyrt]

I'm an animal (techinically) and I can conceive death :huh:
And female cows actually cry when farmers remove their babies.

I agree, I definately think its better to hunt than to farm or mass-produce. I just look forward to the day when we're all veggie :D

[mothwench]

in my opinion, the difference between us and the rest of the animals is the realisation and concept of death, creativity, imagination, and appreciation for beauty (or a misconception of beauty, in lots of unfortunate cases) within a species other than our own.

but yeah, i see your point it would be cool if we could find out if a female cow lowing for her young is actually realising exactly what's happening to it, or if it's just a combination of hormones and instincts.
also, dogs who's owners die... i wonder if they have an idea/concept of death.
:huh:

[mucgwyrt]

My Office Buddies dog died a few weeks ago, and his second dog was so "upset" that it just stopped eating and died within a fornight.

Sounds similar to when my grandmother died. My grandfather wasted away so suddenly through his grief, he died within 2 months.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I just look forward to the day when we're all veggie :D

I don't want to turn this into a veggie/non-veggie thread, but I can't not respond to this.

I truely hope you're not serious with that comment macha. :nuhuh: Man needs meat to survive, that's why most full-time vegetarians have to take supplements, because they aren't getting everthing they need in their diet. I for one wouldn't survive if I didn't eat meat. My body doesn't metabolize carbohydrates so I have to eat an excess of protein to make up the energy loss of eating fewer carbs/sugars. The best source, meat. If I were to eat as many carbs as the majority of people I would be a very sick person. There are actually many vegetables I shouldn't (I don't say can't, because the idea of not eating corn or carrots is terrible) even eat because of their high carb/sugar content. There is no meat that causes that same problem. I rarely if ever eat potatoes, so that leaves out another huge portion of possible diet, as does the fact that I almost never eat pasta. I understand, many people don't have as many dietry restrictions as I should stick too, but to say that everyone should go veggie is not something we should hope for.

Instead we should hope that man goes back to an ethical and healthy way of not only eating meat, but also of procurring it. There is nothing wrong with thanking the animal for it's sacrifice before preparing it. And when you remove all the hormones, the meat becomes much better. As a kid I practically lived solely off the venison that my father brought home after hunting. We all took part in preparing and butchering the meat. The skins were donated and the antlers were put to various purposes.

Furthermore, if we don't keep hunting, there will be all sorts of problems in the animal population, particularly the deer. Here in the States, the deer population, because of a lack of natural predators since the advent of cities, would skyrocket. They would in fact become overpopulated. Already they are too docile, and overrun cities. There would be more accidents and roadkill. On top of that, with nothing to thin out the herds, the herds would become sick and weak. So by our very destruction of the land and natural predators, man has become the only natural predator for the deer population. We must continue to hunt them in order to keep some semblence of balance.

Do I hate the way we currently obtain our meat, jamming the poor animals into tiny crates not large enough for them. Of course I do, and that needs to be changed. As does pumping them full of hormones. That's why I try to eat hormone-free, organic, free-range meat. But everyone going veggie isn't going to solve the problem. Re-learning how to humanely treat and kill those animals that are sacrificing their lives is. Man is meant to eat meat, and we should remember that.

But yes, you're right animals can conceive of death and absence. One of my dogs when I was a kid did the same thing you mentioned below. His mate died, and while it took a while, Sammy also died shortly thereafter. He wouldn't eat, he wouldn't drink, he stopped playing. He essentially died of a broken-heart. However, I think that he would have reacted the same, had Simka merely been sold or gone somewhere he couldn't see her. The same would happen if all of his human family would disappear.

[mucgwyrt]

*considers her wrist thoroughly slapped :p *

But yes, I did mean it simply because I honestly feel that vegetarianism is the only way animals will stop getting the raw end of the bargain. If they could live wild and free and happy etcetc fine. But we dont let them. We'd rather rip down their forest and build an apartment block :rolleyes: You know the story - we block up the creek and cut down the cedars, and still have the audacity to call the apartment block "Cedar Creek" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to step on the toes of people who need to eat meat because of a carb-problem; I meant one day I hope we wont need to sacrifice the lives of others to fulfill our own needs. That is, we'll all be healthy enough to not have to eat meat. God knows by then we wont have any forest left to support wild animals. :rolleyes:
*thinks* OR we can invent food replicators like on Star Trek :woot:

And I do still think its bad "thanking" the animal once its already dead! But thats just my opinion, and I'm a cynic at heart :D

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

How about thanking the animal for it's offering before it's dead. It's a very simplified way of explaining how Native American tribes handled the situation. They did thank and ask the animals for their sacrifices before hunting.

Also, you said you hope man becomes healthy enough to not have to eat meat. In my mind that would actually be very unhealthy. And not just because of my carb issues. Man has since the beginning eaten meat. It's natural. Do you hope that the lion becomes healthy enough to not have to eat meat? Or the wolf? How about the eagle? We eat meat because it's a natural part of our diet. It's not something we decided to do one day. Or whole body make-up, teeth, digestion system, etc. is formed in such a way to eat meat. Our whole phisiology would have to change to get to a point that we wouldn't need meat.

[mucgwyrt]

I just feel, in order to thank something for its "offering"... it has to be a willing participant. And animals aren't, they're scared and they want to be set free. I'd never thought about it until the Yew incident, but I just dont see why animals should be treat any differently than trees.

I like the idea of asking the animals as a whole before the hunt starts though. Then it feels more like whatever animals you come across were "meant" to be there, you know? :uhhuhuh:

Its all so confusing. I really didn't mean to cause offense though *cutey-cute-cute puppy dog eyes*

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I just feel, in order to thank something for its "offering"... it has to be a willing participant. And animals aren't, they're scared and they want to be set free. I'd never thought about it until the Yew incident, but I just dont see why animals should be treat any differently than trees.

I like the idea of asking the animals as a whole before the hunt starts though. Then it feels more like whatever animals you come across were "meant" to be there, you know? :uhhuhuh:

Its all so confusing. I really didn't mean to cause offense though *cutey-cute-cute puppy dog eyes*

I agree, the animals should be asked permission first. But I truely feel (and maybe this is because I was brought up with a lot of Native American beliefs) that if properly asked/handled, animals can be willing participants. It's all in how you go about it.

And you didn't offend me, I just honestly cannot understand the concept some people have about thinking we should all go veggie. It's not a natural state for man, and if people yearn to return to a more natural lifestyle, which is something I hear all the time, then that needs to include eating meat, not banning it from their diet.

[mucgwyrt]

I guess I've always assume we are formed in such a way because we've eaten meat for millions of years (because we've had to, there's been no alternative), rather than so that we can eat meat. :huh: plus, I'd get pretty narked if someone tried to eat me :lol:

Ive never been around native americans, and have only heard the notion of thanking the animals written about in a vague way. It seemed... disrespectful? Hypocritical? I'm not sure how to put it into words. It just seemed wrong to thank the animals after when you didn't even ask them to begin with!
Its nice to hear that some native americans do ask the animals beforehand though :smile: . Is that a widely done thing?

(PS nice to see you're feeling "shiny" today :D )

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I guess I've always assume we are formed in such a way because we've eaten meat for millions of years (because we've had to, there's been no alternative), rather than so that we can eat meat. :huh: plus, I'd get pretty narked if someone tried to eat me :lol:

Ive never been around native americans, and have only heard the notion of thanking the animals written about in a vague way. It seemed... disrespectful? Hypocritical? I'm not sure how to put it into words. It just seemed wrong to thank the animals after when you didn't even ask them to begin with!
Its nice to hear that some native americans do ask the animals beforehand though :smile: . Is that a widely done thing?

(PS nice to see you're feeling "shiny" today :D )

I've never come across any Native tribes that didn't thank both before and after. :foh: I've certainly never heard the notion of them only thanking after.

[mucgwyrt]

See, in which case I have no argument or complaint whatsoever and I'm just turning into one of those annoying people now who reads half-assed explanations of things and then you have to follow them round clearing up after them before they continue spreading half-assed theories :T

I always thought a "lucky rabbits foot" was pretty morbid though *yuk*

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Actually the best way to explain it is, they ask for permission before, and then following a successful hunt thank the animal spirit. Does that make more sense?

I agree it is morbid. But then again my totem is the Rabbit. Of course, that doesn't stop me from wearing rabbit fur coats and the like. Yes I know....how could I wear fur.

[mucgwyrt]

As long as the head's not still attached like with fox... :twitch:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

No...I dont have any with attatched heads. Just a nice warm jacket.

I think the fact that Rabbit is my totem is why DH teases me constantly about playing smack the rabbit. He always has to comment on that. I just tell him that even in the game Rabbit is still teaching me a part of his lesson/medicine...the transitory nature of life. :bigredgri

[Phae Talon]

And I do still think its bad "thanking" the animal once its already dead! But thats just my opinion, and I'm a cynic at heart :D

I can't say that I agree with you on this one ... do you think it would be better to not acknowledge the sacrifice at all? I see that as a little arrogant ... that we figure that animals are just there to be used by us as we see fit, and that there is no need for gratitude. I do like the idea of two ceremonies, but even if you don't prepare a permission ceremony before hand ... I still don't see anything wrong with a thanking ritual.

I am thinking of the stories of the lord of the hunt here. He is lord of wild animals, and it is his blessing that you get a deer at all when you hunt (as there is never a guarantee that your hunt will be successful). I think it is proper to offer thanks to both him and to the deer that he put in your path. But then, I have a pretty close relationship with Cernnunos :)

--Phae

[mothwench]

And you didn't offend me, I just honestly cannot understand the concept some people have about thinking we should all go veggie. It's not a natural state for man, and if people yearn to return to a more natural lifestyle, which is something I hear all the time, then that needs to include eating meat, not banning it from their diet.
agreed. :) let's shove a steak down macha's throat.
lol, just kidding macha :hugz: :toofless: to be honest, i think we all eat far too much meat. macha's got a point in that something needs to be done. but one person depriving themselves of a good source of iron, calcium, protein and whatnot is not going to help the situation while ten other people decide they MUST have the obligatory meat and two veg on their plate every single day. it isn't going to change anything when nothing is being done about retailers and industries making it as available and cheap as possible i.e. mass farming & live animal transport, to cater for this public.
eh, i'd better stop before i get depressed. :rolleyes: messed up meat situation.. *wanders off grumbling*

[MoonIsis]

*considers her wrist thoroughly slapped :p *

But yes, I did mean it simply because I honestly feel that vegetarianism is the only way animals will stop getting the raw end of the bargain. If they could live wild and free and happy etcetc fine. But we dont let them. We'd rather rip down their forest and build an apartment block :rolleyes: You know the story - we block up the creek and cut down the cedars, and still have the audacity to call the apartment block "Cedar Creek" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to step on the toes of people who need to eat meat because of a carb-problem; I meant one day I hope we wont need to sacrifice the lives of others to fulfill our own needs. That is, we'll all be healthy enough to not have to eat meat. God knows by then we wont have any forest left to support wild animals. :rolleyes:
*thinks* OR we can invent food replicators like on Star Trek :woot:

And I do still think its bad "thanking" the animal once its already dead! But thats just my opinion, and I'm a cynic at heart :D

One alternative so far that is finally happening is supermarkets are selling chickens, turkey, and pork as "free range". This means the animal was raised on no antibiotics, was free to roam the range, and was able to live a normal life before slaughter. If you do choose to eat meat, you can choose to purchase meat that was from a happy healthy animal and not a diseased deprived and abused animal.

The only meat I have not given up yet is chicken. Everything else can rot in someone else's colen. One of the reason's I want to give up meat is because I do not want to support an industry that is so dirty any more. I also don't like that they are cutting down our forests for agriculture and meat farms. Also with all this Mad Cow, Bird Flu and strange drugs in meat going around, I'm probably safer munching on a carrot then a cheeseburger.

There are alternatives to getting protein now adays, like protein shakes, protein bars, nuts, fruits, tofu, etc. Everything else you need you can get from veggies and a balanced diet. Meat doesn't have to be included if you don't want to eat it. They have many "fake" meats now adays that are good sources of protein, iron, and vitamins. Some are actually pretty good! I especially like the "ground meat" that is actually a soy based spicy taco "meat". Excellent for tacos and it lasts longer then regular ground meat! Smells better when cooked and is so low in fat! My friends can't even tell the difference.

Once you have to work with these animals that people eat every day, you feel differently about seeing them on your plate for dinner.

[WynterWynd]

Before I get on my soap box........

Are you talking about areas that clear out forests just to give cattle and other livestock a place to live? Or are you talking about the timber industry in general?

[Calyx]

Before I get on my soap box........

Are you talking about areas that clear out forests just to give cattle and other livestock a place to live? Or are you talking about the timber industry in general?

Heh, *snorts*
How about all of it?
*climbs on her soapbox*
While I AM a carnivore, with the ulcer business, I am definitely not eating as much meat lately, and my poor tummy can't even handle beef, sigh... :blech: ....as much as I drool for it.

My main complaint is much like Macha's ( I think, without rereading this thread back :ahhhh: )....

WHY is it that we as a city or humans or whatever, can't see a green space without wanting to totally freaking ruin it and build ugly strip malls that stand vacant a year later, or shoddy tract housing that totally bulldozes every piece of living greenery for the sake of "progress"???? :huh: WHY? My heart weeps every time I drive by those ugly eyesores and see the barrenness of what used to be a beautiful green meadow, or nice foresty type land. I can feel the trees' tears, if that makes sense, and I hate it.

*slinks off her soap box*

Oh, and Macha :hugz:, two things.....

One, the idea of using wind as being the eye of the storm for a shield.... I LOVED it! :woot: I don't know why that's never occurred to me before, but it makes perfect sense now that you mention it.

And, for a completely different topic, cows cry not just because their babies are taken away, but because they are in pain because of the milk excess that then hurts their udders since their little calves are gone. Sad, but true. Although, I am completely in agreement that animals have feelings. Anyone with a pet should hopefully see this, and feel it. :uhhuhuh:

[WynterWynd]

My main complaint is much like Macha's ( I think, without rereading this thread back :ahhhh: )....

WHY is it that we as a city or humans or whatever, can't see a green space without wanting to totally freaking ruin it and build ugly strip malls that stand vacant a year later, or shoddy tract housing that totally bulldozes every piece of living greenery for the sake of "progress"???? :huh: WHY? My heart weeps every time I drive by those ugly eyesores and see the barrenness of what used to be a beautiful green meadow, or nice foresty type land. I can feel the trees' tears, if that makes sense, and I hate it.

Makes perfect sense to me. You can come up here with me, where the trees still 'roam' free:lol:

[mothwench]

:lol: i'm jealous of your redwood trees, vb. though i don't do too bad myself. i love the place where i live, it looks like the shire around Hobbiton. :elf:

that might be another thing about hedge witches, a preference for living waaaay out in the countryside away from all the grey squareness? or is this a stereotype i formed in my head?
:huh:

[WynterWynd]

I don't think its a stereotype. We were/are considering moving to Louisiana. But I want to live out in the woods there too, by the coast...I don't want to see any of the urban sprawl going on.
And has much as I would love to move, all I have to do is take a run in the truck with mu hubby when he goes to Portalnd or L.A....and I get 'cement shock' and want to come home to my trees and beach.

[Calyx]

that might be another thing about hedge witches, a preference for living waaaay out in the countryside away from all the grey squareness? or is this a stereotype i formed in my head?
:huh:

What a good question! I think you might be onto something with that one. At least all of us on the thread so far seem to prefer greenness to concrete! :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Oh gods, if I could get out of the city I'd be ecstatic. I can't stand all the metal and concrete. However at least I live in a city that loves it's trees and nature, so it's not as bad as some places. But I can't seem to convince hubby, who also loves nature, to move to the country. He's to worried about finding good jobs in the country. :hrmm: I almost want to use my son as an excuse. Not even a year old and he'd rather be outside than anywhere else. He was like that from the day he was born. If he starts crying and fussing all we have to do is take him outdoors. When we found out we were going to have a baby we said we wanted a child we could take out hiking with us, but we never imagined we'd have a child that we could leave in the wild. :lol:

[mothwench]

oh, that's so sweet that he likes being outdoors. :smile:

[WynterWynd]

Thats great!:) All I have to to do is utter the words beach or park (we have a huge park here thats just FULL of redwoods) and those two of mine (and hubby too!) are out the door faster than me:T

[Bec_W]

I just wanted to say thanks, I've gotten alot of this thread, it's been really insightful. So thanks :D

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Thats great!:) All I have to to do is utter the words beach or park (we have a huge park here thats just FULL of redwoods) and those two of mine (and hubby too!) are out the door faster than me:T

Sure it's great until something needs to be done indoors and he is crying at the door to be taken for a walk or to go sit in the yard and play. :yikes:

[Nitefalle]

I definitely prefer greeness to the city. I get all dreamy when I'm around trees and forested area and I can't stand NYC farther than I can throw it. There's nothing but electricity and concrete, soul-less heat and maddening noise. I definitely want to get a plot of land and build on it, just about 10 acres or so. It's at the top of my long term list of goals.

~N~

[WynterWynd]

I love NYC....Manhattan, for a visit.....and a swift exit...like a cab driver:lol:

I used to love coming into Mahattan to deliver to the meat markets...it was an adventure;)

[mucgwyrt]

I want to live by a lake :floating:

[Calyx]

I live 5 minutes from the Gulf of Mexico. I don't know what I would do without that!
My neighborhood is very wooded and we back up to a wildlife preserve/sacred indian burial ground, so no other developers can build any new neighborhoods around us. Armand Bayou is 1/4 mile away, and the girls and I walk to the park all the time. :adidas:
Green-ness is what helps keep me sane, I think! :crazyman:

[moonmorgan]

Hey all I found this essay on Stangs:
http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2003/e_stang.html

[Phae Talon]

Hey all I found this essay on Stangs:
http://www.witchvox.com/words/words_2003/e_stang.html


Very interesting essay ... thanks for posting it :)

--Phae

[Calyx]

Yes, that was quite interesting.
I found another page that had acceptable woods for stangs and besoms, as well. I think if you google Spiral Oak it will come up, but I just can't remember (I was sneaking at work!) :bigredblu

So, I just dropped by to tell y'all the family and I are off to Mexico for a week :woot: So I won't be around. I just wanted to let my trad buddies know I wasn't dropping out or anything! :tongueout

Love y'all! :hugz:

[WynterWynd]

:hugz: Have a great time!! Enjoy the nice warm water:D

[mothwench]

mind those margaritas :p
have fun! :hugz:

[Pearlescence]

hello,

i'm not new to the craft, but i am unfamiliar with the classifications and branches of it. i started studying wicca being that it is the most widely written about. i liked it well enough but i felt a little tied down with all the tools and detailed ceremonies of the different sabbats and esbats, then there was the innitiation rites and handfasting, comming of age...there were so many things one would need, know and would do at certain times for certain gods and rules, and then the different authors and different vareiations... well i was overwhellemed and taken back by all this.

eventually i realized that to follow my heart i would have to leave all these "material' needs and focus more within my self than on the outside. i learned that to find my god/dess not in books or history books but in my own sorrounding and the life that occupy them. since then i had found more inner peace, but have found myself a little lost when it comes to outwardly, for lack of better words, appearing as one of my chosen faith. so what do i say when someone asks? am i pagan? technically yes, to everyone who dosen't follow my faith i am pagan because the true meaning of the word is "someone with a different faith". am i a polytheist? well not realy because i don't necceserily pray to any particular god/dess, nor do i follow the "male & female" belief of a higher power. i realized that being a pagan dosent necesarily make on a witch nor does being a witch make one a pagan, so am i a witch? i dont realy know because i haven't fount a true definition of being one.

so what am i? all i know is that i love my self enough to be part of the ever evolving life of this very complicated world. I'd like to learn more about it so that i can live harmoniously with it.

that said what about magic? do i believe in it? yes of course, i wouldn't be part of this group unless i did. do i believe it is natural yes unless we wouldn't have any part in it. but can we weild it with our will ? i don't doubt it. should we? is it right that we should use this magic for our own purpose are we even "allowed"? if we do who will assume the resposiblity to "police" us? should we be able to do ourselves, can we? do we deem ourselves wise enough to be able to control ourselves and keep our souls from being corrupted by this power? i guess only our conscions (sp) will be our guide.

but back to my original point, now that i have chosen an unfamiliar and less published path what do i lable myself?

so i ask: what does it mean to be a traditional witch?
does it have to passed down through family, and does it have to my own family?
does it have to old and passed down through tradition?

if i don't fit he traditional path, does anyone have any idea of which path i've chosen?

sorry i kinda ranted there for a bit, i hope i didn't confuse anyone, and hope someone could and would clear my own confusion. thanks for taking the time to read my post.

pearl

[Phae Talon]

so i ask: what does it mean to be a traditional witch?
does it have to passed down through family, and does it have to my own family?
does it have to old and passed down through tradition?


Traditional Witchcraft is the low or folk magic that Wicca is based on. It has a lot less ceremony and tools. We celebrate the same holidays as Wiccans, but we are not bound by the Rede or the law of three fold return ... what I have found so appealing about this path is that it is based on common sense and the traditional practices of the British people ... you do what you feel is right ... you are bound by your own ethics, no one elses. We generally do not practice in groups or covens ... a traditional witch is solitary by nature. A great book you should check out on Traditional Witchcraft is A Witch Alone by Marian Green.

No, it does not have to be passed down through a family (that is hereditary Witchcraft and though the practices can be similar, they aren't always). No, since there is no real tradition in the Wiccan sense of the word for traditional Witchcraft ... so nothing is passed through a coven enviroment. Traditional Witches tend to be pretty secretive about their personal practices, but there is a lot of good information out there about it to help you learn ... eventually, however you are going to have to take the reigns and make the path your own.



if i don't fit he traditional path, does anyone have any idea of which path i've chosen?

pearl

Only you can answer that question. No one can tell you what your path is.

I hope I have been a little bit helpful :)

--Phae

[mothwench]

so i ask: what does it mean to be a traditional witch?
does it have to passed down through family, and does it have to my own family?
does it have to old and passed down through tradition?

these are very good questions. here's my take on it: this is where my invented phrase "eclectic reconstructionism" comes in handy. this is the path i'm on, if you can call it a path. for me, reconstructionism is traditionalism for those who have no tradition, or who have lost their tradition. and it's eclectic simply because i choose to reconstruct practises of more than one culture, and of different timelines.

in any case, i as an eclectic recon am finding myself quite at home here among the TW's. :floating:
:huddle:

[Pearlescence]

i guess what i have to do is take a deep breath, and just put one foot infron of the other, so to speak, and let my own consoins and heart lead the way. thank you for your help and advice.

pearl

[Calyx]

OK, y'all,
while I have not given up my birch/aspen staff yet, and we haven't pruned the Ash tree in the front yard, I've found the ultimately shaped stang. It's an absolutely perfect trident shape, and it's just lovely. There is only one problem, maybe. I am not absolutely sure of this, but I believe it's oleander. I did a little reseach on oleander, but could only find that it's used magickally for love.
Soooo, my question would be, would this be an appropriate stang? :hmmmmm:
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! :)

[Phae Talon]

OK, y'all,
while I have not given up my birch/aspen staff yet, and we haven't pruned the Ash tree in the front yard, I've found the ultimately shaped stang. It's an absolutely perfect trident shape, and it's just lovely. There is only one problem, maybe. I am not absolutely sure of this, but I believe it's oleander. I did a little reseach on oleander, but could only find that it's used magickally for love.
Soooo, my question would be, would this be an appropriate stang? :hmmmmm:
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! :)

I don't put a lot of stock in picking a stang for its wood. For me it is all about the vibes. Mine is driftwood ... I found it on the same beach that my fiance and I went to on our first date ... this makes it very special to me. I think that how you feel when you hold it in your hand if far more important than the type of wood it is made of.

That is my two cents, anyway :toofless:

--Phae

[mothwench]

OK, y'all,
while I have not given up my birch/aspen staff yet, and we haven't pruned the Ash tree in the front yard, I've found the ultimately shaped stang. It's an absolutely perfect trident shape, and it's just lovely. There is only one problem, maybe. I am not absolutely sure of this, but I believe it's oleander. I did a little reseach on oleander, but could only find that it's used magickally for love.
Soooo, my question would be, would this be an appropriate stang? :hmmmmm:
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! :)
actually oleader is really really poisonous, as i've just recently learned. i'd at least try and find out about the toxicity of it. otherwise it sounds like a great find. :smile: my word, they must get really big down where you are. my mom has one in a big pot and we have to take it inside in the winter. none of the branches would do for a stang, though, too puny.

just to make sure we're talking about the same thing... long leathery leaves and pink (or other colored? ) flowers, right?

[Calyx]

I don't put a lot of stock in picking a stang for its wood. For me it is all about the vibes. Mine is driftwood ... I found it on the same beach that my fiance and I went to on our first date ... this makes it very special to me. I think that how you feel when you hold it in your hand if far more important than the type of wood it is made of.

That is my two cents, anyway :toofless:

--Phae

Well, the vibes are right. And, it was the wierdest thing, how it appeared in my life. Since you know if you bother to scroll back thru here that I have been looking for a new stang since my daughters whacked mine in half :awwman: , I've been dithering around trying to decide what to do.
It just so happened that about 3 weeks ago, we went down to Galveston, to the historical district called the Strand. When we came back to the truck, it was propped against the fence directly across from it in a flowerbed. It still had roots on it, but no dirt. I swear it was not there when we left the truck, so I made DH and his brother shove it in the back of the truck. I sawed the roots off and trimmed the "tines", and I love it! Like I said, it is the PERFECT trident. I can't help but think of the Sea for some reason each and every time I see it, which makes me believe it's the right one for me, because the Sea and I are very intertwined! :)

[Calyx]

actually oleader is really really poisonous, as i've just recently learned. i'd at least try and find out about the toxicity of it. otherwise it sounds like a great find. :smile: my word, they must get really big down where you are. my mom has one in a big pot and we have to take it inside in the winter. none of the branches would do for a stang, though, too puny.

just to make sure we're talking about the same thing... long leathery leaves and pink (or other colored? ) flowers, right?

Yes, oleander is VERY poisonous. We have some huge ones in the yard, and we've always made sure the girls never, ever touch or handle them. Since I am not planning on gnawing on it, then I figured it was ok to use. 8O

And they do get huge down here. Mine are almost 20 feet high and are badly in need of a trimming. I bet your zone is too cool for them there to get really large. Which is a shame, because they are fantastic plants! :boing:

Your description sounds right, so I think we are talking about the same thing. :)

[misschief]

This is the first time I've really spoken about the path I have found myself travelling in all the time I've been here, I think! My path is one of the Traditional Witch. Well, as traditional as you can get - every traditional-witch's path is different, and not much is written about it.

you sound alot like me! :cheers:

[WynterWynd]

Yes, oleander is VERY poisonous. We have some huge ones in the yard, and we've always made sure the girls never, ever touch or handle them. Since I am not planning on gnawing on it, then I figured it was ok to use. 8O

And they do get huge down here. Mine are almost 20 feet high and are badly in need of a trimming. I bet your zone is too cool for them there to get really large. Which is a shame, because they are fantastic plants! :boing:

Your description sounds right, so I think we are talking about the same thing. :)
Oleander is HIGHLY poisonous. I would consult with a nusery about handling the wood bare handed, because I remember when I was a child we had HUGE bushes of those around on side of our yard and my father would never touch that plant bare handed. The toxicicty is in the 'milky' substance they secrete when cut.
I would find out from a realiable source to see if maybe you cut a piece and hung it somewhere till it had dried out completely...if it would be safe then to handle:sadeyes: just to be sure.

[Calyx]

Oleander is HIGHLY poisonous. I would consult with a nusery about handling the wood bare handed, because I remember when I was a child we had HUGE bushes of those around on side of our yard and my father would never touch that plant bare handed. The toxicicty is in the 'milky' substance they secrete when cut.
I would find out from a realiable source to see if maybe you cut a piece and hung it somewhere till it had dried out completely...if it would be safe then to handle:sadeyes: just to be sure.


eeep! :hairred:
I cut it and handle it barehanded all the time! I haven't had any bad reactions yet. Perhaps I should call a nursery man....
That's a little alarming!
The stang is dried enough not to release any sap, but it's outside drying in the sun as well. :hrmm: :awwman: I will keep an eye on it!

[WynterWynd]

Oleander Info (http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Oleander_Leaf.asp?sitearea=ETO)

Heres some Oleander info, just in case you come across a cluless nursery man;)

[Calyx]

hee hee!
bump :lol:

[Skye]

Hi Everyone, I haven't been here in a while and I am please to see a thread on the traditional craft.

I saw that someone a few posts back differenciated traditonal and hereditary, I wanted to point out, that many post Gardainian wiccans refer to themselves as either traditional or hereditary. I, myself, prefer (if you have to give yourself a title), heathen. I suppose in my eyes, this differenciates me from wiccan.

By the way, I am Skye

NIce to meet you :cool:

[Nantonos]

I saw that someone a few posts back differenciated traditonal and hereditary, I wanted to point out, that many post Gardainian wiccans refer to themselves as either traditional or hereditary. I, myself, prefer (if you have to give yourself a title), heathen. I suppose in my eyes, this differenciates me from wiccan.
:cool:

It does, although the term Heathen is also widely used to mean Germanic Reconstructionist Pagan.

[Phae Talon]

Hi Everyone, I haven't been here in a while and I am please to see a thread on the traditional craft.

I saw that someone a few posts back differenciated traditonal and hereditary, I wanted to point out, that many post Gardainian wiccans refer to themselves as either traditional or hereditary. I, myself, prefer (if you have to give yourself a title), heathen. I suppose in my eyes, this differenciates me from wiccan.

By the way, I am Skye

NIce to meet you :cool:

Hi Skye ... Welcome to MysticWicks.

I just wanted to point out that British Traditional Witchcraft is the low magick that Gardner used when putting Wicca together. There IS a similarity, and though we may not be Wiccan, I don't think that there is so big of a deal in having people think we do the same sorts of things ... in a lot of cases we do.

You can, of course, be a hereditary witch and a Wiccan, but you don't necessarily have to be. I have come to the conclusion that you can't really escape misunderstanding no matter how specific your title (I still get people assuming I am Wiccan). I just stopped worrying about it. :bigblue:

--Phae

[mucgwyrt]

I certainly wouldn't call yourself Heathen; you'll have everyone thinking you're either an Anglo-Saxon or Norse Recon ;)
I think perhaps Pagan would be better?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

There are others besides Germanic Recons who call themselves Heathens. If I remember correctly Nallia who is a Hellenic Recon prefers the term Heathen to pagan. Of course a lot of that has to do with the fact that many recons try to seperate their beliefs from that of the general pagan/neopagan.

[mucgwyrt]

Huuuummm... yeah, I dont think I would call Hellenic/Greek/Roman/etc Heathenry... :huh:

[Ladyvi]

very nice. and i like the simplicity. seen and read many a circle casting. mine is just as simple. very interesting.

[Calyx]

I saw that someone a few posts back differenciated traditonal and hereditary, I wanted to point out, that many post Gardainian wiccans refer to themselves as either traditional or hereditary. I, myself, prefer (if you have to give yourself a title), heathen. I suppose in my eyes, this differenciates me from wiccan. :cool:


How about just a plain ol' hedgewitch, then? That's what I have always called myself for the most part, and it seems to bear the same connotation as trad witchcraft, without the Wiccan confusion.

Anyone else?

[Phae Talon]

How about just a plain ol' hedgewitch, then? That's what I have always called myself for the most part, and it seems to bear the same connotation as trad witchcraft, without the Wiccan confusion.

Anyone else?

Hedgewitch is good, but there is a definition out there that says that a hedgewitch is more along the lines of a shaman than a cunning man/woman. I dunno, I think that just about whatever label you come up with is gonna require more explanation ... especially from those who have never heard it before.

--Phae

[Calyx]

Hedgewitch is good, but there is a definition out there that says that a hedgewitch is more along the lines of a shaman than a cunning man/woman. I dunno, I think that just about whatever label you come up with is gonna require more explanation ... especially from those who have never heard it before.

--Phae

Yes, I saw that one too, PT! :) I have to admit I was a little surprised by that myself, as that's the first time I'd heard that. If I recall correctly, somewhere in this thread we talked about that as well. Who'd ever be able to find it now, though? :lol:

You are right about the labels, though. How very frustrating that we always try to put a name to things, even when they are not really nameable.

[Phae Talon]

Yes, I saw that one too, PT! :) I have to admit I was a little surprised by that myself, as that's the first time I'd heard that. If I recall correctly, somewhere in this thread we talked about that as well. Who'd ever be able to find it now, though? :lol:

You are right about the labels, though. How very frustrating that we always try to put a name to things, even when they are not really nameable.

I do seem to remember talking about it earlier ... this thread is so long though, that I wasn't sure if it was here or somewhere else! LOL :crylaugh: ... and it was the first time I had seen it as well. Doing a quick web search though brought up a whole bunch of other websites that say much the same thing. It almost seems that the one to create the connection between hedgewitch and cunning folk was Marian Green.

I dunno :whatgives ... I guess that the best way to find out about someone's path is just to ask them ... the labels often seem so insufficiant (especially for those outside the norm).

--Phae

[mothwench]

How about just a plain ol' hedgewitch, then? That's what I have always called myself for the most part, and it seems to bear the same connotation as trad witchcraft, without the Wiccan confusion.

Anyone else?
hedgewitch is a great word. i think aefentid defined it as the hedge being symbolic for the border between civilisation and the wild, i thought that was kind of neat. :D

[Skye]

I guess I've always thought of heathen as country dwellers, not associated with recons. Maybe I should rethink this title. I have some trouble explaining that I am a traditional/hereditary witch ' I was borne this way!'. yes pagan, not wiccan, not really any religious beliefs involved.

Ok, I'm rambling, I'll shut up for now! :bouncybob

[*Rain*]

Hello, don't know if you've seen this site but it's a pretty good source for trad witchcraft info

http://www.geocities.com/echo879/

The author definitely knows what she's talking about. Hope it helps to clear a few things up.

[Skye]

Hello, don't know if you've seen this site but it's a pretty good source for trad witchcraft info

http://www.geocities.com/echo879/

The author definitely knows what she's talking about. Hope it helps to clear a few things up.


Well, I agree that traditions vary widely...

I disagree that tradional witchcraft is a religion...to me a religion is a set of personal beliefs, and witchcraft is the acts of magik.

While I am hereditary witch (past down from family), I don't have a religious belief system, which iclude dieties, gods or goddesses. We have ancestors, guardians and so forth, but do not confuse this to religion as we do not worship or idlize them, the are protectors.

This will probable stay an ago old agrument and I am not out to settle it (hell, my daughter disagrees with me all the time), so maybe we can agree that we all have a degree of differing opinions, and not just one person (or group) is the sole authority on anyone elses tradition.

[Nantonos]

I disagree that tradional witchcraft is a religion...to me a religion is a set of personal beliefs, and witchcraft is the acts of magik.

I understand your point, although its also true to say that historically, many people approached religion in a very different way that the way they do now. It wasn't about spiritual enlightenment (thatwas for mystery religions) it was more a codified way to homor certain forces and/or avoid annoying them.

Which just means that you would classify many ancoient religions as magical systems not as religions, which is certainly a consistent viewpoint.

[*Rain*]

Apart from calling Witchcraft a religion I think the information on the website is still good. I think a lot of confusion comes in in the way people define religion, a lot of people equate religion with what they believe, regardless of whether those beliefs include deities (mine certainly don't). However, if you believe magic works and you practice witchcraft, how do you define that? I think inadequacies in the English language leave it very difficult for you to call it something else other than a 'religion'. I'd be interested in finding out if anybody has another term for it. While I don't have a religion in the strictest sense of the word (i.e. I don't worship anybody/thing), I do have a set of beliefs (an underlying power/energy in nature, spirits, fate, magic) but no way of defining what those beliefs are. If not a religion then what? Answers on a postcard to...

[~Emily~]

:flowers:

[mucgwyrt]

and I found myself at a "fork" in the road, not knowing which path to take


In the wise words of George Bush Jr., "if you see a fork in the road, take it!" ;)

Seriously though, that sounds beautiful Emily :smile:

[Bec_W]

Out of curiousity (and perhaps a little desperation) has anyone come across any information about traditional witchcraft in the Southern hemisphere, preferably Australia :D

[mucgwyrt]

It's possible but I doubt it - we didn't colonise Australia until we were a very christian state.
Thats not reason to stop you, though!

[Cradoc]

Where can I learn the basics of Wiccan practice and
theology before deciding on a tradition?

[mucgwyrt]

There are several threads on wicca in the Paths forum.

[Bec_W]

It's possible but I doubt it - we didn't colonise Australia until we were a very christian state.
Thats not reason to stop you, though!

*nods* That's what I was thinking. Arh well, I'll keep working things out for myself :)

[Nantonos]

*nods* That's what I was thinking. Arh well, I'll keep working things out for myself :)

Can you trace your family back to another country and pick up a traditional thread from there?

And of course there is a modern Pagan movement in Australia.

And you get to have Wendy Rule.

[Mab]

pardon my ignorance, but: Wendy Rule?

[Bec_W]

pardon my ignorance, but: Wendy Rule?

Aine, Wendy Rule is an Australian, pagan singer (http://www.wendyrule.com).


Can you trace your family back to another country and pick up a traditional thread from there?

And of course there is a modern Pagan movement in Australia.

And you get to have Wendy Rule.

I've been told that our family came to Australia from Ireland (Anglo-Norman), previously from Normandy and even further back from Denmark, I don't neccessarily have it on good authority as I've never seen my family tree.

I'm looking for a path that's akin to tradition witchcraft but has aspects of Australian culture (other then just turning the sabbats around to suit our season). I'm not interested in Aboriginal culture and doubt I'd be able to study it from anywhere other then books.

Now I've lost my train of thought :|

[Nantonos]

Aine, Wendy Rule is an Australian, pagan singer (http://www.wendyrule.com).

Sorry should have explained more. With an amazing voice and some great albums, check them out!



I've been told that our family came to Australia from Ireland (Anglo-Norman), previously from Normandy and even further back from Denmark, I don't neccessarily have it on good authority as I've never seen my family tree.[]/quote]

That info (beyound the first step) is unlikely to be from genealogy, just from history. its a fact that the Normans came to Britain from what is now part of France, Normandy; its also true that they had only been there a short while and were originally Scandinavian (hence the name Nor-men, men from the north).

[QUOTE=Bec_W]I'm looking for a path that's akin to tradition witchcraft but has aspects of Australian culture (other then just turning the sabbats around to suit our season). I'm not interested in Aboriginal culture and doubt I'd be able to study it from anywhere other then books.|

Which is both more realistic and more respectful than ' I read a book, I am a native Australian shaman!'. Its entirely possible that there are records of folk magic practice in Australia, so do look into that (and tell us what you find!).

[Bec_W]

I'm going to work a different angle and see if I can get my family tree from some one more reliable. It'd be interesting to see what it actually says.

I hadn't thought of the folk magic angle, thanks for the tip, I definately will follow it up :)

Thanks

[Kern]

Quik Question here: I have not read all the posts on this thread so forgive me if I missed something.Can any one please explain to me or tell me where I can find it.That is the true differences between Witch craft and the religions of the Celts. I have heard and read that they were the same, and I have read and heard that Witchcraft was not a religion in itself but a practice that people used along side their religion.I tend to believe the later.I have read that TW does not follow or worship any gods and I have read that they worship gods/spirits of nature.
Can any one please clear this up for me.All the books and websites just make it more confusing.Thanks!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Wow....a whole explination on the differences between the Celtic religions and Traditional Witchcraft? That's asking a lot. I'm at work now, so I can't really get into it, but when I get some time I'll try and go in depth. But yes, I think you got the basic gist of witchcraft being seperate from religion. Though, many/most witches are religious as well and tend to work with deity in the manner of "all gods are one gods." (Which idea makes me shudder as I'm a hard polytheist and Recon.)

[Nantonos]

Quik Question here: I have not read all the posts on this thread so forgive me if I missed something.Can any one please explain to me or tell me where I can find it.That is the true differences between Witch craft and the religions of the Celts. I have heard and read that they were the same,

Your source was incorrect. They are vastly different. Its only recently that an urban myth has grown up that Wicca is somehow Celtic. It is not. Traditional Witchcraft is also not myc like Wicca and not much like Celtic religions in older times. In more modern times, Celtiic speaking peoples were Christian (although they had a rich folk practice which might perhaps be considered Traditional Witchcraft - but so did non Celtic-speaking peoples)

Also, which Celts are you speaking of (which area, and which time period)? Religion was very different among, say, 5th century BCE Hallstatt Celts, 3rd century BCE La Tène Celts, 1st century CE Gallo-Romans, 4th century CE Irish, and so on.


and I have read and heard that Witchcraft was not a religion in itself but a practice that people used along side their religion.

Some people state that, but then some people distinguish between orthopraxy (right action) and inner religious belief, too.


I tend to believe the later.I have read that TW does not follow or worship any gods and I have read that they worship gods/spirits of nature.
Can any one please clear this up for me.All the books and websites just make it more confusing.Thanks!

:reindeer: thousandth post! :reindeer:

[Kern]

Also, which Celts are you speaking of (which area, and which time period)? Religion was very different among, say, 5th century BCE Hallstatt Celts, 3rd century BCE La Tène Celts, 1st century CE Gallo-Romans, 4th century CE Irish, and so on.



:reindeer: thousandth post! :reindeer:

I was mainly referring to the Celts of the British Isles of pre Anglo Saxon periods AND Pre Christian Ireland.And I should have made it plainer that I wasnt asking about WICCA,But TW.

[Nantonos]

I was mainly referring to the Celts of the British Isles of pre Anglo Saxon periods AND Pre Christian Ireland.

That is a small improvement, but still covers a vast time period of 900 years.


And I should have made it plainer that I wasnt asking about WICCA,But TW.

That was clear. I was referring to the common myth that Wicca is related to celtic religion, as a possible basis for the myth that you found that TW is somehow related to pre-Christian Celtic practices.

[Kern]

Another Question what type of craft practices things like making cows give blood,animals stand in the same place all day,and can remove warts by rubbing them and whispering something while rubbing it then within a week the wart is gone.Just curious,my gr grandmother could do these things,my grandmother told me about them and my grandmother was taught the wart removal by her.I know that to be true for I have seen it with my own eyes.But my grandmother woudnt tell me anything only that my gr grandmother was some sort of witch and that she had a book with spells and stuff.

[Kern]

That is a small improvement, but still covers a vast time period of 900 years.
Lets say the last 100 yrs of that then.

[~Emily~]

Hi macha :)
I was wondering, by "traditional witchcraft" are you referring to the 1734 Tradition? Most internet sites claiming to be about Traditional Witchcraft are actually about the 1734 Tradition founded by Robert Cochrane. Do you belong to this Tradition, or do you practice something else?

[Nantonos]

Hi macha :)
I was wondering, by "traditional witchcraft" are you referring to the 1734 Tradition? Most internet sites claiming to be about Traditional Witchcraft are actually about the 1734 Tradition founded by Robert Cochrane. Do you belong to this Tradition, or do you practice something else?

I won't try to speak for macha, because she would ding me upside the head :) on the other hand she is just off on a long vacation so she won't be answering for a while ...

1734 is fairly different to the TW being discussed in this thread. There is a separate 1734 thread
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=50341
although its not very active.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I won't try to speak for macha, because she would ding me upside the head :) on the other hand she is just off on a long vacation so she won't be answering for a while ...

1734 is fairly different to the TW being discussed in this thread. There is a separate 1734 thread
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=50341
although its not very active.

Try to bop you upside the head? I dare say she would succeed. :whistle:

Although, I'm quite certain that no she is not a member of the 1734 tradition. Actually in my experience most people who I've talked to about trad witchcraft are in fact not talking about 1734.

[~Emily~]

Try to bop you upside the head? I dare say she would succeed. :whistle:

Although, I'm quite certain that no she is not a member of the 1734 tradition. Actually in my experience most people who I've talked to about trad witchcraft are in fact not talking about 1734.
So, what are the differences between Trad Witchcraft and 1734? From what I've read, it sounds like the Cochrane Trads do consider themselves Traditional Witches. In fact, every "Traditional Witchcraft" site I've found so far is actually Cochrane (hedgewytchery.com, thecrookedhearth.com, etc). Is Cochrane really "traditional witchcraft," or is it actually a modern branch of witchcraft (like Wicca)?

It also appears that stangs were one of the hallmarks of the 1734, but I assume that it is also a part of Traditional Witchcraft?

Meh, I'm so confused. :ahhhh: There's so much misinformation out there, that I never know who to believe. If any of you could explain a bit about the similarities/differences between Trad Witchcraft and Cochrane (or at least point me in the right direction), I would be forever grateful.

[Seren_]

So, what are the differences between Trad Witchcraft and 1734? From what I've read, it sounds like the Cochrane Trads do consider themselves Traditional Witches. In fact, every "Traditional Witchcraft" site I've found so far is actually Cochrane (hedgewytchery.com, thecrookedhearth.com, etc). Is Cochrane really "traditional witchcraft," or is it actually a modern branch of witchcraft (like Wicca)?

It also appears that stangs were one of the hallmarks of the 1734, but I assume that it is also a part of Traditional Witchcraft?

Meh, I'm so confused. :ahhhh: There's so much misinformation out there, that I never know who to believe. If any of you could explain a bit about the similarities/differences between Trad Witchcraft and Cochrane (or at least point me in the right direction), I would be forever grateful.

I think it's basically accepted that Cochrane's tradition was one of those trads that sprang up after Gardner. Or "made public". I don't think Cochrane had any training from Gardner, so his brand of witchcraft is not Wiccan in that sense; Doreen Valiente said Cochrane's style was very different to Gardner. But how "ancient" or "traditional" it is, is a different matter.

Like Gardner himself, Cochrane claimed to be from a traditional line of witches; neither claims can be fully proven or disproven, and like some Gardnerians - a term Cochrane apparently coined in contempt of his "pretenders at Witchcraft" - some practitioners still believe the claims to be true.

From what Doreen Valiente says - who worked with Gardner and Cochrane - she felt that a lot of the time Cochrane was "basically making it up" on the spot - he had a much less formal, more shamanistic style than Gardner. Unfortunately Cochrane came to a tragic end with a massive drugs overdose one midsummer, and some practitioners think he may have had the idea of sacrificing himself, like the Dying King of midsummer.

You can read some of Cochrane's (Robert Cochrane was his pseudonym) own writings here. The second link is an off-shoot of his original coven, I believe, the clan of Tubal Cain:

http://www.cyberwitch.com/bowers/
http://members.aol.com/CTubalCain/

[Kern]

Not all forms of Trad Withcraft ARE Celtic; so that website that was mentioned earlier on this thread and other websites that say that it comes from the Celts are not true..You have to take into account that some forms of Trad Witchcraft stem from British(Anglo/Norman),some from German,some from Italian,etc,not all come from the Celtic peoples.So to say that Traditional Witchcraft originated from Celtic religions is false.
IMO TW is not a religion,but a path or family tradition.A person can practice it whether they are Heathen/Asatru,Celtic Recon,Wiccan,or even if they non religious.

[Bec_W]

It seems very cool to have Celtic ancestors or to follow a Celtic path *shrugs*

[tygherrayn]

I for one have always said that I am 'just a Witch' or a Kitchen Witch or Green Witch .. I'd never heard the correlation before between 'Traditional Witchcraft' and what I followed, but having only read a few posts here, I believe we seem to have the same ideas on things. I'd always thought that 'Traditional' Witchcraft meant that it was Hereditary, that you had to be taught by your mother/father or a family member.

I'll be perusing this thread though, and hopefully I can say I've now found my 'niche' so to speak.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

very fascinating and intriguing, miss macha :)

[Ravyn Sylverwyng]

I'm not sure how many know this, but I like many here are a bit bewildered by the pentagram as well. But, my sister was just telling me today that the pentagram is such an important symbol because it is the form that Venus makes in the sky every four years as it travels. I found that bit rather facinateing myself and didn't know if anyone else here would also, if they didn't know it. I'm still learning, what can I say?

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm not sure how many know this, but I like many here are a bit bewildered by the pentagram as well. But, my sister was just telling me today that the pentagram is such an important symbol because it is the form that Venus makes in the sky every four years as it travels. I found that bit rather facinateing myself and didn't know if anyone else here would also, if they didn't know it. I'm still learning, what can I say?

I didn't know that (and I've been studying Wicca and occultism for over 20 years now.) Thanks for the cool detail!

I did some googling and found this site that explains it with diagrams and everything:
http://southmovement.alphalink.com.au/commentaries/Pattern.html

And I'd like to add to Seren's excellent post about Robert Cochrane and "traditional witchcraft" that in one of Doreen Valiente's books I remember her relating how she caught Cochrane in one of his public untruths. Doreen had given Cochrane a metal plate she picked up in an antique shop, intending it to be used for ritual or whatever. It happened to have the date "1734" on it. Not long after, Cochrane had himself photographed holding the plate and claiming that it was a family heirloom that proved his claim to hereditary witch status going back to the 1700s.

I wonder if the importance of the number 1734 in Cochrane's system predated getting that plate or was introduced (and the number meaning worked out) because of the plate.

[Kern]

Guess no ones going to answer my earlier questions fully so here goes another one.

Is WicceCraeft the same as Wicca?

[Phoenix Blue]

Guess no ones going to answer my earlier questions fully so here goes another one.

Is WicceCraeft the same as Wicca?
You're right - if you act like you're entitled to have every question answered, no one will answer your questions. They'll either ignore you or tell you off.

[Kern]

Hmmm Didnt realise I was acting that way....Just was asking to learn....
:nuhuh:

[Ben Gruagach]

Is WicceCraeft the same as Wicca?

Labels are words that people use to try and box things away nice and tidy. Different people have different understandings of what is tidy.

The word "wicca" and "wicce" are the older versions of the word "witch." (Wicca is a male witch, wicce is a female one, by the way.)

Gerald Gardner seems to have been the first to bring the word Wicca (although he spelled it sometimes as Wica) into modern usage. He used it as another word for witchcraft. WicceCraeft is just an attempt to spell the word witchcraft in a more impressive way.

As you read more about witchcraft and Wicca you'll discover that different people use the same words in different ways. Some people say that Wicca is definitely not the same thing as witchcraft although in Gardner's day it was used that way. Words evolve and change meanings, sometimes getting more specific but sometimes getting more general. Today it's most common to say that Wicca refers to a specific religious system based on the practices of witchcraft and pre-Christian religions descended either directly or indirectly from Gerald Gardner. Some are more limited in how they define Wicca -- they say that only those with a direct lineage of formal initiations to Gerald Gardner or Alex Sanders are Wiccans. There are also many witches today who do not base their practice on Gardner in any way and do not call themselves Wiccans.

Perhaps there are some people who do use the word WicceCraeft to refer to their specific sect or tradition but I'm sure there are others who have used the word in a more general way and not to refer to a specific tradition. There are always some people who will try to impress by using odd spellings of things when they really just mean the normally spelled variation.

[Kern]

Yeah I knew all that.I use to be Wiccan.I was just wondering because I have seen some websites that use the term but didnt seem to be wiccan.

[Avalon]

I didn't know that (and I've been studying Wicca and occultism for over 20 years now.) Thanks for the cool detail!

I did some googling and found this site that explains it with diagrams and everything:
http://southmovement.alphalink.com.au/commentaries/Pattern.html

<snipped>

I wonder if the importance of the number 1734 in Cochrane's system predated getting that plate or was introduced (and the number meaning worked out) because of the plate.

Thanks for the link, Ben.
I'm no 1734 scholar, but the number is supposed to be a riddle; some say to the name of the Goddess in that particular tradition.

I haven't posted here before, but I plan to follow the thread now. I read the entire thing! :foh: Recently identified as a kitchen witch, and glad to be with others of a like mind. :hugz:

[Calyx]

Hey! Glad to have you Avy! :huddle:
Birds of a feather flock together and all that stuff, you know.... :lol:

[Avalon]

Hey! Glad to have you Avy! :huddle:
Birds of a feather flock together and all that stuff, you know.... :lol:
Tweet! :D

Kind of forging my own Path as I go along...thanks for the warm welcome Calyx! :hugz:

[mothwench]

here, have a stang. :fpoke:

[Avalon]

here, have a stang. :fpoke:
Thankies!

*promptly shoes it with an iron nail*

Told you I read the entire thread! :p

[Moonstoned]

I am learning a lot here!

I have found out recently that I am an empath (ouch, no wonder everything hurt so much :wth: )

I now see that my belief that there is an 'essence' in everything is called 'animism'.

I have not found anything in Chaos magic (so far) that has turned me off. It seems to be a case of doing whatever works for you. That works for me :nicetie:

I have got to a place in my 'practising' where I tend to do things my own way without any need to look up correspondences etc. and I am happy about that. I have come across folk on groups who are very cross with what they see as my 'ignorance'. I cannot see that at all. This is such a personal thing. Why would anyone tell me that the way I celebrate, 'work', connect be wrong? Wrong for them maybe, but I do this stuff on my own.

I have the distinct feeling that having looked thoroughly into Wicca and decided I definitely am not Wiccan, I may be following a traditional witchcraft path. Why do I keep on looking for a label lol? A sense of group belonging maybe, who knows.

I found the 'elfhame' site some time ago and enjoyed it, I will read it again and think about this.

Nice to see everybody here, I will probably be back if you will have me. :excuseme: