Right and Wrong

[lynx]

To All it Concerns

My name is Laura (Lynx). I wish to ask for your help.

I recently sent a letter to Azure003@aol.com about their website and its contents. Them being, the way they informed new-beginners to go buy books and not waste their time with wanting to just learn spells and be cool. I had nothing wrong with that except for the way it may confuse other real beginners. The true seekers of the knowledge.

I was appalled at the letter that they sent back. They degraded me and other beginners by calling us pathetic and saying that "No self-respecting teacher would ever even look at us, more less, have anything to do with us."

The question I now offer to you, is....

How do we learn without asking questions?


Signed,

In the dark, without light. ==8-O) <--Shocked

[rantnraven]

Sorry your experience was jilting. That is what I think Mol has created with this site. This is a place to learn and share. Although it couldn't hurt to check out a book. There is one that I have read as of late that I would recommend: Paganism - A Beginner's Guide by Teresa Moorney. It is very informative. Otherwise check out some other web sites like http://www.cog.org (Covenant of The Goddess. Pretty good site with a lot of information.

Welcome aboard,
Thoma

[Litha]

One must be a cautious seeker. Not everyone has your interests at heart. Many with knowledge do not respect others without that same knowledge. You must evaluate those from whom you would learn from, just as they will evaluate you.
Here is a place of sacred space which mol and semele have created for learning and growth.
What follows is an Evaluation Frame created by Isaac Bonewits which may help you in your future search.
As a general rule, the higher the numerical total scored , the more it is likely to be not the group of your choice.
Score from 1-10/low to high:

1
INTERNAL CONTROL: Amount of internal political power exercised by leader(s) over members. _____________________________

2
WISDOM CLAIMED by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations. _____________________________

3
WISDOM CREDITED to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s). _____________________________

4
DOGMA: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or "fundamentalism." _____________________________

5
RECRUITING: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing.
_____________________________

6
FRONT GROUPS: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group. _____________________________

7
WEALTH: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members' donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.
_____________________________

8
POLITICAL POWER: Amount of external political influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members' secular votes.
____________________________

9
SEXUAL MANIPULATION: of members by leader(s); amount of control exercised over sexuality of members; advancement dependent upon sexual favors or specific lifestyle.
_____________________________

10
CENSORSHIP: Amount of control over members' access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).
_____________________________

11
DROPOUT CONTROL: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.
_____________________________

12
VIOLENCE: amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
_____________________________

13
PARANOIA: amount of fear con- cerning real or imagined enemies; perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.
_____________________________

14
GRIMNESS: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
_____________________________

15
SURRENDER OF WILL: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).
_____________________________

16
HYPOCRISY: amount of approval for other actions (not included above) which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate group's declared principles for political, psychological, economic, or other gain.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

You can't trust the internet to one site alone. Look around.

You should count yourself lucky to find this one. These people have been the most open and honest.

[mol]

I will say this again.

Ask a question and be a fool for five minutes. Dont ask...and be a fool for a lifetime.

[Trevi]

"Ability is a great thing, but it's value is greatly enhanced by dependability"

"Some peoples minds are like cement.....All mixed up and permanently set."

"Good judgement comes from experience, but experience comes from good judgement."

In other words.... those with the knowledge have nothing if they dont share it! what good is it to KNOW something, if you cant show it off or pass it on???

Perhaps they dont know as much as they are claiming and are afraid of questions????

[rantnraven]

Vex me. I understand the need for knowledge. However, the Burning-Times are not completely over.

There is all the need to share but, to "Show it off" could compromise our plight. We must be smart and NOT STRONG. This is a lesson I learned long ago from a man who was Wiccan before time as I know it.

Lynx: Keep the faith. The Mother will show you the way and you will prevail.

By The Goddess, Pass it on but don't show it off.
Thoma

[eaglewolf]

I had something to say... but bit my tongue.

~ew

[Trevi]

I never intended to vex anyone.
I was only venting anger and frustration about those websites that claim to know Wicca and Paganism but spread lies and, frankly, disgusting information!
I have run into several of these and when I have questioned them I have gotten much the same reaction: "If you dont know, why are you here? Why should we tell you?"
I only felt that if someone knows something that someone else is curious about, is it not prudent to offer that information to help teach and inform?
I have a friend who is constantly asking me questions. I'd rather she came to me than hear about some baby sacrifice or blood drinking ceremony that isn't true.

Thats all I meant. Perhaps I am more willing to share my knowledge because I was a teacher for so many years. It is a habit that is hard to let go of.


I meant no harm.

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Trevi
Thats all I meant. Perhaps I am more willing to share my knowledge because I was a teacher for so many years. It is a habit that is hard to let go of.


Do NOT let go of it!

"If we live in the past, it is in the past we shall stay."

I for one am ready to live today for tomorrow...

Those who do not teach are doomed to fade away.

~ew

[rantnraven]

Eaglewolf, Bite your tongue not. Please speak your mind. I can take it. I appreciate constructive criticism.

Trevi: Please do not take my comments to heart. It is okay to vent your anger, however, I feel, that you may wish to keep it in check. Anger serves no one. Harness your energy. Save it. The day will come.

I am Wiccan and look to the reede:

An It Harm None, Do As Thy Wilt.

My intentions are not to harm but, to help.

Correct me, please, if I am out of line.

Thoma

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by rantnraven
Eaglewolf, Bite your tongue not. Please speak your mind. I can take it. I appreciate constructive criticism.


LOL! I have fallen into that trap one too many times...

A little of my rant is above, but that is all you get :D.

~ew

[rantnraven]

What "Trap" would that be?

Curious,
Thoma

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by rantnraven
What "Trap" would that be?


I was being funny, I think...

I am VERY opinionated and my views are OFTEN conflicting to others. When I try to teach something, it often comes across the wrong way.

Nothing personal :D.

I have learned there is a very fine line between "food for thought" and "fuel for the fire." Telling the difference between the two is not something I have mastered.

~ew

[Semele]

You are getting there though!!!

And I don't think anyone will take your words the wrong way now. We understand your passionate feelings now. Plus we have seen the picture of your gorgeous son. Who could be mad at one of the people responsible for such a beautiful child???

Semele

[Shatav]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


I am VERY opinionated and my views are OFTEN conflicting to others. When I try to teach something, it often comes across the wrong way.



And here I thought I was the only one! I just don't do PC all that well...though I know how to jump off my soapbox when the cops come to break it up. ;)

And Laura, you'll find just as with any religion out there, even Wicca has Cliques. I'm glad you found you're way here, though.

[Litha]

being pc is not what it's cracked up to be if it means hiding your truth
sometimes someone has to point at the emperor and say he has no clothes
I get the feeling there are quite a few of us here that do this (:

[rantnraven]

have an opinion. And that is what makes us what we are. While that opinion is accepted widely amongst us, it could be haphazard to run into the street and shout it out. Being PC has nothing to do with this - survival, that is key - the ancestors knew that (e.g. The Book of Shadows). Granted, Wicca was adopted, by Congress, in 1996 as an actual "religion", but it is still young by default.

When I mentioned The Burning Times, I did not mean that would could be killed. I am just saying that sometimes silence IS golden. Before we run Skyclad through the street yelling, "I am PAGAN", we should know, or remember, that there are those, whom we love, that can be hurt.

For example, I would rather suffer knowing my mother does not know then to have her suffer knowing who I am.

Eaglewolf: Speak your mind, I beg you. Isn't that, after all, what this site is about?

By The Goddess,
-T

I hope this makes sense as it was difficult to write.

[Amethyst Rose]

Just a quick response....

While I can see where you're coming from, I just don't understand exactly....
If we don't tell people who we are and what we do, and straighten out their opinions of us, how will their ideas ever change??
If we stay hidden, they think there's a good reason for it, and that we are deviants. If we come out in the open we have nothing to hide....
I just don't understand how staying under cover can help us out, I guess...

[Trevi]

I think I see both points of view. I can understand keeping silent because, my mother, too, would "suffer" thinking SHE would go the hell for not doing her job and raising a good little catholic girl. I would rather keep silent and "protect" her.

On the other hand, I try to be honest with people when they ask me questions about who or what I am. I am finding it much easier to be open about everything because I live in an area where paganism is prevalent. Where I used to live, I'd have to travel out of my way to get supplies, herbs or candles. Now, I have a CHOICE of places right in my own backyard!

So, I can see where keeping quiet comes in handy, and where "letting it all hang out" comes in handy. Just like everything else, we have to pick and choose our times, I think.

[rantnraven]

That about sums it up. It's kind of like merging onto a highway, I think. We do so cautiously - turn signal, check the blind spot. We do this as to not cause harm. We don't just go hauling butt down the on ramp with total disregard to those around us.

Ultimately, I'm not saying we should hide, for now is our time. However, we should make known what we are with a little care. I don't want to ruin anything for the rest of the Pagan populous. That's all.

I am actually quite open about who I am. Just not around family that it could hurt and definitely not in the work place.

-T

[Amethyst Rose]

Okay, I understand now :)

I don't have any problem letting my immediate family know about my religion, because it wouldn't hurt them at all.... my dad and sister are athiest and my mom is agnostic...sorta.
However, I understand because I would never come right out and tell my grandmother.... i don't think she'd survive the telling.
As for the work place... I would treat it the same way as I do my family...I wouldn't deny anything or hide anything.... I'd still wear my pentacle ring (which I haven't gone without in 3 years)...and still keep my protection pentacle hanging from my car's rear view mirror.
I'm not sure how I would act if I was approached and asked to get rid of my pentacle... I'd probably quit. While I don't think my actions should hurt anyone, they don't have the right to hurt me either.... so the only choice for me would be to get out of the situation all together.

[lynx]

I am beginning to understand the more that I think and read your comments. They are fully accepted.

I am having trouble with knowing whether or not to inform my parents about their little girl becoming herself. And I mean, HERSELF. Not what everyone else wants or sees as fit.

Don't you just love that. If your not like this, boy are you stange. I just love the way some people think. I guess the saying is true, It takes all kinds of people to make the world go 'round. HEE HEE

Thanks

Lynx })i({

[rantnraven]

An' it Harm None, Do as thy wilt.

It would be VERY easy to run out there and scream. While the above is the Wiccan Reede, I subscribe to it 100% (plus).

Though rather eclectic, I can't hurt anyone.

My religion boils in my blood and I WANT to shout but, think of whom it might hurt. My Grandmother may have said, "Okay' whatever". My mother, father, sister, nephew and nieces would be devastated. How do you say from there???

Some have those who understand, others do not. I, for one, am not hiding, persay. I just need to be cautious and try not to hurt those around me. Those that I Love.

-T

[mol]

Originally posted by Litha
being pc is not what it's cracked up to be if it means hiding your truth
sometimes someone has to point at the emperor and say he has no clothes
I get the feeling there are quite a few of us here that do this (:

He is Naked!

I'll just blurt out that if asked, the answer should be the truth. If not asked, its none of your business.

[Shatav]

Originally posted by mol


He is Naked!




Heathen! :D And they complain about skyclad rituals!

[lynx]

Blurting out around here could mean danger. Although what is to fear is fear itself. Simply put, question....

Do you see people walking about shouting,
"HEY, I'M A CHRISTIAN!!"

I don't. Instead I see them doing as we all do now. Living with their believes. (Althoug I do remember hearing about Ohio and the Mormons :( .) That doesn't mean that we should go out and smack people up-side their heads with our books and stones does it? I don't think so. :)

In other words, draw attention like the rose. It does nothing but grow and live. As all nature does. The attention drawn, is respectful. Those who show have nothing to show at all....

Thoughts I live by... O=:-0 <---(inspired)

Lynx })i({

[Shatav]

Originally posted by lynx
In other words, draw attention like the rose. It does nothing but grow and live. As all nature does. The attention drawn, is respectful. Those who show have nothing to show at all....



Very insightful, lynx...I'll have to remember that quote sometime. ;)

[rantnraven]

No, Christians don't run out and blurt. However, when was the last time a couple of good-looking Pagans with ties and bicycles showed up at your door or, at a bus stop. Not really "blurting", persay, but close.

The point I was trying make was that some members of my family would be truly hurt. They had raised me to be a good Christian and this (what I am now) would be in their face. Paganism is now my life. My mother need not know for it would hurt her severely.

Blurt? I shall not.

-T

[rantnraven]

I feel another community POEM coming on!!!!

[lynx]

Originally posted by rantnraven
No, Christians don't run out and blurt. However, when was the last time a couple of good-looking Pagans with ties and bicycles showed up at your door or, at a bus stop. Not really "blurting", persay, but close.

-T

Can't say that has ever happened unless you count my friend. HEE HEE. Yes I have had those visitors too. Even though they were walking. HEE HEE (Sorry to say, that they weren't exactly happy with my questions and answers.) But, that's life.

Personally, I have not seen any one I know as a Pagan ever wear a Tie, either. HEE HEE.

What I meant was that we all know when and where we are commfortable. And with whom we are comfortable. Don't just walk up to someone and say, "Hey guess what? I'm a Pagan." They might miss judge us all to be a little on the nutty side. HEE HEE :)
Just be yourselves. Thats all I meant. Not literally going out and shouting or walking up to someone and calling out. That's a little on the don't do list for me. B-I

Lynx O:-o

[Semele]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rantnraven
[B]No, Christians don't run out and blurt.

Not to stir up trouble but yes sir indeed I have heard many times the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Many of the people I work with are into mission work and are often telling stories of God's glory... One coworker even made a comment about a tigers eye stone I was holding during report. She went into this long rant about a song telling the story about how the rivers and winds smooth the surface of the rock as God does our lives ... or something to that effect. Sounded nice actually and I told her so. She proceeded to tell me the name of the artist and that I should look into getting it. I mentioned that I wasn't familiar with the singer and she commented that it was a Christian artist and then proceeded to "joke" with me about braodening my horizons and listening to something other than devil music.

Now point 1. How does she even know what kind of music I listen to? No devil music for me, unless you count Mol's stuff... and I don't really think it qualifies.
2. My horizon's are broad enough thank you. 3. Why couldn't she be satisfied with the fact that I was respecting her and even saying it sounded nice... instead she judged me even if it was joking.

I am not offended by someone making comments about their religion or their closeness to God. i am thrilled for them, really I am. However these are exactly the type of folks I wont mention my lack of Christianity to. It would be a burden to her and she may feel the need to "save" me. I much prefer to respond positively to her when she makes a comment about God's glory. Amen sister, and I do mean it. I am truly grateful each and every day i wake up and see the sun shining and the flowers growing or the snow covering the ground. Blessings come in every shape and size. isn't it enough that we are all recognizing them even if we don't call the source by the same name?

Sorry, I will shut up now.

Semele

[rantnraven]

Semele, I have read a lot of your posts but, this one was chalk full of passion - vim and vigor.

I, for one, have nothing against Christians, Muslims, Islamics, even Mormons and the rest. Just let me alone to practice what it is that I do - and to tell whom I must. I believe it was Frost who spoke of the Valor of men - and women, I might add.

Religion, to me, is a tool. Spirituality is the prize. It is within spirituality that we truly flourish.

Blessed is the mother,
Thoma

[Yvonne Belisle]

A guillitine in the living room works wonders for making them go away quick.:) I have a stage prop of one in my living room it tends to reduce visitation time and further visits drastically. It works better than the alter on top of my fishtank. I only let them come in to preach in my home because of the children, otherwise it would be a case of I don't push on you, you don't push on me. I lived in Salt Lake City for a few years too. They mean no harm but it can get agrivating after a while.

[rantnraven]

I invite them in, then, while they take seats, I start lighting the candles upon my alter. If they are still there when I am done, I insist to talk first. They don't last too long after that.

-T

[Yvonne Belisle]

It's nice to see I'm not the only one with little patience for closed minds. The guillitine tends to sort them out.

[Armitage]

Considering the area I live in, I'm surprised I don't get visitors like this...To clarify, I live close enough to Philly to get there by bus, but not close enough to have the openmindedness rub off. So far I haven't had any bad experiences, just odd stares and questions of what my pentacle is and people handing pamphlets door-to-door...My dog usually scares those people off. She's half pitbull and half shar-pei...Looks menacing, acts menacing, is really a huge baby.

[lynx]

One of the greatest religious people that I know is my father.

Born and raised a Roman Catholic, he was not able to see other religions and understand them. It was with the help of his mother that he was given the chance to experience. She helped him to know that the Catholic religion was not the only religion.

With that, he was determined to understand. So he has. He has been able to look at other religions and understand. Even when at first they seem wrong. He has also helped to bestow in me, the ability to stay non-judgemental. ;)

He and I believe that to pray outside is just like praying in a church. There was no church in the time of Adam and Eve. When all was created and done, man made the first church. House of God. To me, nature is the true house of all.

By his experiences, I am able to veiw other religions with an open mind. I believe that all religions are correct. We all have one almighty being. Whether it be man or woman. We all have smaller gods, spirits, fairies, appausals, discyples, ect... We all pray whether it be on knee or foot. We all look to the sky in our darkest hours. We all live.

I, myself, am labeled as nothing. I just believe.

Lynx =^..^=

[gunner]

there's some excellent thinking going on in this thread, if i'd had any doubts about joining this community they'd be gone now (truth be told i did have some, not about you all but rather how i would fit with you being by trade a "hired gun", the legal kind, but you've greeted me kindly and made me feel welcome, thank you) judging by what i've seen the last few days i'd have no reservations about recommending this site to anyone looking for help and good information on the many aspects of pagan life. blessed be all here.
"gunner"

[Yvonne Belisle]

Someone has to do your job. Nothing wrong with it as far as I know. Then again I'm exNavy. I also believe firmly in the right to defend ones self and home so I have several weapons about the house but the only gun is a bb gun. Go figure. Shoulders shrugging. Lots of shiney sharp sticky pokey things here. Can't wear them in California sad to say they are to big. My ex got caught with my atheme and the DA wanted it melted the Judge thankfully understood what it was, and the police still didn't want to return it. So much for getting a sheath made for it we can't bring it out to get one fit without one and the guy who makes them is housebound. Oh for a car!

[rantnraven]

I just bought a new Athame. Cut myself with the last. I ordered over the internet and had a great experience with a company call Whispered Prayers. I have since bought more from them because they stand behind the products and keep promises.

The site is http://www.whisperedprayers.com. The Athame came with a leather sheath and was reasonably priced.

Check 'em out.

-T

[rantnraven]

Mol has started a great thing here. I too was a skeptic at first. The truly great part is that he has started a site where WE control the process through thought and sharing. Most other sites control what it is that we see and read.

This is a site of free-thought.

That's the greatness of this community.

Thoma

[gunner]

i'd say litha's scale is a very good one for evaluating any "teacher", "guru", "sensei", 'blessed/worshipful master", "fearless leader" or whatever title and the groups they lead, and if you assign a number value, say "1" as least and "10" as most the higher the answer numbers the faster you practise your "trak-shu jitsu". i also like the guidelines on the front page of ashlynns grove (in our links page) blessed be

[gunner]

no apology needed i think, the sort of people you described are found too often in all groups, even pagans i'm sorry to say. there is a type of person that seems to need to feel superior to "the commons" and that type gravitates towards or tries to create "mystery cults" (which paganism is not! our knowledge is there for anyone who will make the effort to seek it) seek and follow your own path and "(anglo-saxon word) 'em if they can't take a joke". blessed be.

[gunner]

yes, yvonne, the guillotine can sort them out rather quickly