the Wheel of the year and progression of the solstices

[Taliesyn]

Did you know that when the sphinx was built, it pointed to the rising sun on midsummers day, which happened to be 15 degrees leo? (that is lammas, guys)
when I found that out, I started thinking about how the wheel of the year seems to repeat itself in meaning every two sabbats.
then I read an essay on the work Ross Nicols and Greald Gardener did to combine their holy days into one cycle- and I wonder- are we celebrating sabbats that are duplicates because the solctices have moved?

Thoughts?

[Aedrais]

You mean, like... wait, hang on... every other Sabbat is a repeat? So, they combine everything into two Sabbat?

*sheepish* I'd love to comment, but I don't know if I rightly understand.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

No Taliesyn, I don't think we are. We have evidence that the four "fire-festivals" (Samhuinne, Imbolg, Lùnasdal, and Beltainne) were celebrated by the Gaelic peoples (I say Gaelic here, because there is no evidence that Imbolg was celebrated by non-Gaelic Celts such as the Cymry/Welsh) with completely seperate purposes than the solstices and equinoxes. (Which by the way there is no evidence that the equinoxes were honored and only a little that the solstices were celebrated by the Druids but not the common folk as the four fire-festivals were. ) So I don't think it is an accurate statement to say that the Wheel of the Year is just repeating the same occassions on different dates.

:fofftopic BTW, I've always wondered why people use the name Lammas in place of Lùnasdal. Lammas was the name given a Germanic festival celebrated at the same time as the Celtic Lùnasdal after the Germanic peoples had been Christianized for the most part. So why do you use a Christian name to describe a Wiccan/Pagan holiday? Then again, I have the same question for those who use the name Candlemas in place of Imbolg or other culturally appropriate name.

[Nantonos]

Did you know that when the sphinx was built, it pointed to the rising sun on midsummers day, which happened to be 15 degrees leo? (that is lammas, guys)

No, I didn't. Reference or pointer to where you found that? Is it in a siderial or a tropical zodiac? And if in a siderial zodiac then no, it wasn't lammas then, it was midsummer as you said.


when I found that out, I started thinking about how the wheel of the year seems to repeat itself in meaning every two sabbats.

That is to an extent true and is due to the mid-20th century attempt to integrate two different seasonal rounds into one big calendar.


then I read an essay on the work Ross Nicols and Greald Gardener did to combine their holy days into one cycle- and I wonder- are we celebrating sabbats that are duplicates because the solctices have moved?

Thoughts?

Its not because the equinoxes have moved, no.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

No, I didn't. Reference or pointer to where you found that? Is it in a siderial or a tropical zodiac? And if in a siderial zodiac then no, it wasn't lammas then, it was midsummer as you said.

I don't know about Taliesyn's sources but Graham Hancock discusses this quite extensively in his book Fingerprints of the Gods. And though I've not read this next book yet, it is my understanding that it is covered as well by Rose and Rand Flem-Ath in their book When the Sky Fell.

[Kadynas]

No, I didn't. Reference or pointer to where you found that? Is it in a siderial or a tropical zodiac? And if in a siderial zodiac then no, it wasn't lammas then, it was midsummer as you said.

I know that the astrological timing for the "cross-quarter" festivals is said to be 15 degrees of each fized sign /now/... giving us 15 Leo for Lammas, 15 Scorpio for Samhaim, 15 Taurus for Beltaine, and 15 Aquarius for Imbolc. But like Nantanos, I don't think it was so "precise" back then. The cross-quarters are said to be placed thus because they fall evenly in-between the Solstices and Equinoxes...

Nantanos is also correct in that the Equinoxes have "moved". This has to do with the precession of the Equinoxes, which also determines what "age" we are in. (Right now we're still in the Age of Pisces, gearing up to go into Aquarius in about 100 more years...) "Tropical" astrology always gives the Spring Equinox point - the beginning of the Zodiac - to 00 degrees of Aries. In the "Sidereal" system, the Equinox is still rising in Pisces...

[Taliesyn]

wow guys- sorry not to be here, i'v been pretty busy this week.
I actually found this out while researching the fixed stars (Regulus, Alderbaron, Antares and Farmaulhault)

see, my thought is that in the re-creation of our ancient ways, folks found two different sets. NOt knowing that one was based on the stars and one was based on the calender, they didn't realize that the stars had moved, and assumed that they were different days.

I guess the reason I say this is because the calender is in flux, but the stars are fixed. I am under the opinion that the Equinoxes are important points for healing the earth -times when the energy field of the planet is most easily healed.

I also see the astronomical events celebrated by many other earth cultures-

[Æon Flux]

:fofftopic BTW, I've always wondered why people use the name Lammas in place of Lùnasdal. Lammas was the name given a Germanic festival celebrated at the same time as the Celtic Lùnasdal after the Germanic peoples had been Christianized for the most part. So why do you use a Christian name to describe a Wiccan/Pagan holiday? Then again, I have the same question for those who use the name Candlemas in place of Imbolg or other culturally appropriate name.

I don't really know.
That's a good question.
Most of us might be a bit misinformed about the origins of the word Lammas and use it because it's easier to remember.
I personally prefer the name Lùnasdal, although I haven't learned to spell it yet.
:hrmm:

[mothwench]

*whinge*

i don't understand this whole thread? can someone explain? how do you reckon there's a repetition every two sabbats? as in imbolc is repeated in beltaine? and yule is repeated in ostara, what? :confused:

what does it have to do with fixed stars and flux calendars? :huh:

[Taliesyn]

actually, the sabbat pairs would be:

Mabon and Samhain, Yule and Imbolc, Ostara and Beltaine, and Litha and Lughnasahd.
The Fixed stars are important to the sabbats because they stand at the points when those sabbats occur- like Samhain takes place at 15 deg. Scorpio- the home of Antares.

(I call it lammas 'cause thats the way I learned it- I was taught by a woman wiht no celtic leanings, really- she was cuban and worshiped Isis- We spelled it eith Lammas or Lughnasahd.)

[mothwench]

okay, i misunderstood what you meant by every two sabbats.

so you're saying the festivals samhain, imbolc, beltaine, and lughnasadh are in accordance with the fixed stars and the others, yule, ostara, midsummer and fall equinox are not... fine with that so far, but how do you recon the equinoxes and solstices are in flux? are they? i don't know much about astrology.

[Taliesyn]

the solstices and equnioxes move backwards through our calender- when the sphinx was built, midsummer solstice occured in the middle of Leo- that's around the first of August.

[raven grimassi]

BTW, I've always wondered why people use the name Lammas in place of Lùnasdal. Lammas was the name given a Germanic festival celebrated at the same time as the Celtic Lùnasdal after the Germanic peoples had been Christianized for the most part. So why do you use a Christian name to describe a Wiccan/Pagan holiday? Then again, I have the same question for those who use the name Candlemas in place of Imbolg or other culturally appropriate name.

During the 60s the Sabbats were commonly referred to as Yule, Candlemas, Lady Day, Roodmas, St.John's Day, Lammas, Michaelmas, and Hallowmas. And yes, these are for the most part the Christianized festival names, which displaced earlier Pagan celebrations.

For many generations the Christianized names were used and became the cultural norm. Pagan and Craft groups that arose following the publication of Gerald Gardner's books in the 1950s more or less inherited these names from folk traditions of the Christianized period.

Following Gardner's published materials there began a movement to find early Celtic names for the Sabbats. There is no historical or literary evidence from which we can conclude that any ancient Pagans/Witches celebrated all eight Sabbats as an intentional Wheel of the Year construction. That doesn't necessarily mean that none did, it simply means there is no "acceptable" documentation for an academic argument.

It was around the mid 70s when the Celtic labels all fell into place, and from there we arrived at the names commonly known and used today. However, there is still no agreement in whole regarding some of the Sabbat names. Diversity strikes again. :)

But as to why some people still use the Christianized names, I suppose because of established cultural roots and the vernacular that arises from such. Why do we call a dollar a buck? ;)

Best regards - Raven

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I don't really know.
That's a good question.
Most of us might be a bit misinformed about the origins of the word Lammas and use it because it's easier to remember.
I personally prefer the name Lùnasdal, although I haven't learned to spell it yet.
:hrmm:

You don't have to learn how to spell it Lùnasdal, that's the Scots-Gaelic name for it, most use the easier to spell/remember Lammas or the Irish Celtic Lughnasadh.

And Raven thanks for that information. I didn't know any of that. :smile:

[mothwench]

the solstices and equnioxes move backwards through our calender- when the sphinx was built, midsummer solstice occured in the middle of Leo- that's around the first of August.
oh, i see what you mean. well, that's the reason why every at yule and ostara and midsummer you'll see threads with titles like "when are you celebrating yule" and that... it's not cause we're thick and can't remember our own holidays. it's cause they're always at a different time each year, and also cause it depends on where you live.
that's how i think it is, unless i'm completely mixed up... :huh:

[Nantonos]

During the 60s the Sabbats were commonly referred to as Yule, Candlemas, Lady Day, Roodmas, St.John's Day, Lammas, Michaelmas, and Hallowmas. And yes, these are for the most part the Christianized festival names, which displaced earlier Pagan celebrations.

Its worth remembering that in Britain, these festivals have been celebrated pretty much continuously, although with little Pagan content of course. As an example, some English universities call the autumn/fall term Michaelmas
http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/ox/terms.html
And of course May Day was celebrated with maypoles etc in England (and with paired bonfires in Scotland). The fire festivals were called cross-quarter days in England, but quarter-days in Scotland. Its tempting to see a Celtic influence in Scotland (and North England) on their choice of quarter days, and a Saxon influence on (south east) England and their choice of quarter days.


For many generations the Christianized names were used and became the cultural norm. Pagan and Craft groups that arose following the publication of Gerald Gardner's books in the 1950s more or less inherited these names from folk traditions of the Christianized period.

Yes, absolutely. So the choice of a 'more Pagan' name is a late 20th century tendency, although often referring back to older calendars in a piecemeal and syncetistic fashion.


Following Gardner's published materials there began a movement to find early Celtic names for the Sabbats. .... It was around the mid 70s when the Celtic labels all fell into place,

Does the 'Wicca is Celtic' assumption also date from that period? Do you know what started that idea?


There is no historical or literary evidence from which we can conclude that any ancient Pagans/Witches celebrated all eight Sabbats as an intentional Wheel of the Year construction. That doesn't necessarily mean that none did, it simply means there is no "acceptable" documentation for an academic argument.

Thats close enough to 'none for my taste :) the eightfold wheel is a 20th century Pagan construction with multiple roots dating back to assorted historical periods.

Searching for some ancient culture to pin it on and claim unbroken descent from is just so 20th century

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

So... is there anywhere on the web/at the library where one could find the real historical backgrounds of the cross-quarter days (and maybe solstices and equinoxes as well)? I'm tired of reading "The ancient Celts celebrated Ostara and Lammastide with bonfires and metaphorical sacrifices" and fluff like that! :geez:

[Nantonos]

the solstices and equnioxes move backwards through our calender- when the sphinx was built, midsummer solstice occured in the middle of Leo- that's around the first of August.

Thats backwards. The summer solstice has never beem in August.

The sphynx has little or nothing to do with the festivals of the eightfold wheel.

When the sphinx was built, the summer solstice might have occured against what the siderialists would call the sign of leo, but it occurred against what the tropical zodiac calls zero Cancer, always. And, the summer solstice is always in summer because, well, duh.

Using your logic, pick a date far enough back and summer solstice occured in the middle of winter.

[Kadynas]

When the sphinx was built, the summer solstice might have occured against what the siderialists would call the sign of leo, but it occurred against what the tropical zodiac calls zero Cancer, always. And, the summer solstice is always in summer because, well, duh.

And even if they were using the Sidereal system it would /still/ be close to 00 Cancer, because the further you go back the closer the actual constellations were to what tropical astrology now calls the ecliptic. The two zodiac systems are only about 20-some degrees away from each other, due to the procession of equinoxes, even after all these years... So Nantanos is correct: Summer Solstice would never have fallen at Lammas. (Gods it took me awhile to figure out what the heck tyou guys were talking about - the solstices/sabbats repeating?? :lol: )

Summer Solstice - even though some have taken to calling it "Midsummer" - is actually the traditional day for the "official" /start/ of summer. As I have explained elsewhere, Cancer is a cardinal sign, and Cardinal signs start each of the 4 seasons. The sign before Cancer is Gemini, a mutable sign which when applies to the seasons equals /transition/... In Gemini Spring's not quite ended, but Summer hasn't fully established itself yet... Cancer is the sign when Summer starts to fully "take over" so to speak. :)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

So... is there anywhere on the web/at the library where one could find the real historical backgrounds of the cross-quarter days (and maybe solstices and equinoxes as well)? I'm tired of reading "The ancient Celts celebrated Ostara and Lammastide with bonfires and metaphorical sacrifices" and fluff like that! :geez:

Go take a look at my Scottish Recon thread in the Paths forum. There are many book and web resources listed with just the type of info you're looking for.

[mucgwyrt]

Its worth remembering that in Britain, these festivals have been celebrated pretty much continuously, although with little Pagan content of course. As an example, some English universities call the autumn/fall term Michaelmas
http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/ox/terms.html
And of course May Day was celebrated with maypoles etc in England (and with paired bonfires in Scotland). The fire festivals were called cross-quarter days in England, but quarter-days in Scotland. Its tempting to see a Celtic influence in Scotland (and North England) on their choice of quarter days, and a Saxon influence on (south east) England and their choice of quarter days.

Totally right. I used to celebrate MayDay by watching morris dancers and people dancing round a maypole as a kid.
And here, "MayDay" is the first monday in may, every year - so that's when I celebrate it, because my heritage is british and I'm not going to drop that for some confused "wheel-of-the-year" when each sabbat has to be "perfect" and fall in a specific constellation...! :lol:
I wonder what the origins of the monday-thing are? Anglo-Saxon? Norman? Something like that :huh: Nantonos, do you know?

(You know, I actually saw a sign up today in a nearby town: "road closed for construction of new Maypole" :T )

[Nantonos]

Totally right. I used to celebrate MayDay by watching morris dancers and people dancing round a maypole as a kid.
And here, "MayDay" is the first monday in may, every year - so that's when I celebrate it, because my heritage is british and I'm not going to drop that for some confused "wheel-of-the-year" when each sabbat has to be "perfect" and fall in a specific constellation...! :lol:

:fprtyman4


I wonder what the origins of the monday-thing are? Anglo-Saxon? Norman? Something like that :huh: Nantonos, do you know?

The origins are ancient and mystical indeed he started, ponderously, because you can't have a bank holiday on the weekend so it has to be Monday he finished, lamely.


(You know, I actually saw a sign up today in a nearby town: "road closed for construction of new Maypole" :T )

Cool!

[mothwench]

isn't the may-day monday a union thing? :huh:

[Nantonos]

isn't the may-day monday a union thing? :huh:

That was a later adoption of the same holiday for political purposes. Its unrelated, though does explain why the Tories tried to remove it as a holiday one time (they saw it as a left-wing holiday, being largely ignorant of its actual history).

In the US, as far as i know, its only been celebrated as Labor day, and does not have its historical or folkloric connections.

1 May is a public holiday in France :)

[mucgwyrt]

The origins are ancient and mystical indeed he started, ponderously, because you can't have a bank holiday on the weekend so it has to be Monday he finished, lamely.


Silly Nantonos :rolleyes:

There's a big thing over here now to get us more bank holidays, because Europe gets so many more than we do (I think Ital gets 11 more than us!! :hairraise: )

[mothwench]

Silly Nantonos :rolleyes:

There's a big thing over here now to get us more bank holidays, because Europe gets so many more than we do (I think Ital gets 11 more than us!! :hairraise: )

haha, you want to go to spain. they have more holidays than working days it seems. they are such a funny people. :bouncysmi about half an hour after they start work, they have to have their first "breakfast break" they are just so cool.
:ballonsmi

[Nantonos]

haha, you want to go to spain. they have more holidays than working days it seems. they are such a funny people. :bouncysmi about half an hour after they start work, they have to have their first "breakfast break" they are just so cool.
:ballonsmi

First breakfast .. that implies they have second breakfast too? Like hobbits?

I was aware that in Spain the afternoon starts about 5pm and dinner is any time after 10pm but second brfeakfast was a new one on me ...

[Equinox]

For those who are wondering about the precession of the equinoxes from a scientific basis, or want to brush up on this topic for this discussion, here is a useful description:
:chattin:
http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Sprecess.htm

Have a fun day-