Christian Witchcraft, Christo~Paganism, Christian Wicca, Gnostic Christianity

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, quite a bit of controversy and heated discussion has been going on about blending Christianity and Pagan paths so I'm going to be adding links and info here as I come across them. Now, mind you, I work online so I will be finding a LOT of stuff!

The Christian Witchery Page - http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/index.html - A LOT of good info about Christian Witchcraft, including articles on the Bible and various beliefs as well as a series of lessons for those interested in the path of Christian Witchcraft.

Christian Mystics - http://www.christianmystics.com/index.shtml - Not Christian Witchcraft per se, but a good introduction to non-fundamentalist Christianity.

Church of the Christ Path - http://www.christpath.org/index.shtml - The church associated with the previous site.

Goddess Aware Christian Women - http://groups.msn.com/GoddessAwareChristianWomen/home.msnw - An MSN group of women who acknowledge and embrace the Goddess within Christian tradition.

The Gnostic Church of St. Mary Magdelene - http://magdalene.wise1.com/ - Just what it says, a Gnostic church.

The Essene Nazorean Church of Mount Carmel - http://www.essene.com - An alternative view of early Christianity.

Order of Nazorean Essenes - http://www.essenes.net - Similar to the previous, although different in many ways. This is described as a Buddhist branch of Christianity with a heavy emphasis on the monastic lifestyle, although lay persons are welcome as well.

Ok, I think that's enough to get your brains stirring for a bit. Comments?

[Morr]

thank you for the awesome sites :)
:hugz:

[Brinclhof]

Thank you Aine of the Fae for the sights. I have been looking for sights were I can find more information on my path to help me in my exploration.

Would anyone object to using this thread as a method of discussioning these different methods of worship, by sharing notes, spells, rituals, etc.? That is something else I feel I need.

[Mab]

YAY!!! Excellent, Aine!!

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you Aine of the Fae for the sights. I have been looking for sights were I can find more information on my path to help me in my exploration.

Would anyone object to using this thread as a method of discussioning these different methods of worship, by sharing notes, spells, rituals, etc.? That is something else I feel I need.

I think that is an excellent idea Brinclhof! It seems there are many of us here who have an affinity to this path, either through interest in it or through fully practicing it!

[Morr]

i agree :)

[Faeawyn]

Wooo Hoooo a thread for me :hehehehe: Thanks Aine...:yourock:

[Aine of the Fae]

Wooo Hoooo a thread for me :hehehehe: Thanks Aine...:yourock:


Glad to oblige :D

[Brinclhof]

Ok then I have a question now that I have a forum to ask it in? :dancy: :fpraiseyo I am working on associating the Holy trinity with the four elements Earth Air Fire and Water. I did this some what in my altar blessing ritual that I performed during the last full moon. My problem comes in my associations. The only element that to me is set is fire with the HOly spirit. In my ritual Jehovah was earth and water, and Jesus was air. I tend to want to associate Jesus with earth more since he was on earth? But Jehovah created the earth, Jesus was baptized with water...etc.

Is anyone else trying to make these associations and if so do your associations change or are they pretty much fixed. If so what elements to each of the 3 in the trinity represent?

Help please.:fpraiseyo

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok then I have a question now that I have a forum to ask it in? :dancy: :fpraiseyo I am working on associating the Holy trinity with the four elements Earth Air Fire and Water. I did this some what in my altar blessing ritual that I performed during the last full moon. My problem comes in my associations. The only element that to me is set is fire with the HOly spirit. In my ritual Jehovah was earth and water, and Jesus was air. I tend to want to associate Jesus with earth more since he was on earth? But Jehovah created the earth, Jesus was baptized with water...etc.

Is anyone else trying to make these associations and if so do your associations change or are they pretty much fixed. If so what elements to each of the 3 in the trinity represent?

Help please.:fpraiseyo

Excellent question! Yes, the Holy Spirit would definitely be fire! Jesus I would associate with Earth, to me he is the Earthly incarnation of the Lord and so Earth just seems natural to me. And Jehovah/Yahweh would be Air and Water because neither can really be contained just as God cannot really be defined. Hope that helps!

[Faeawyn]

I haven't ever thought of associating the Holy trinity with elements....I have, however, been working on the association of Mary and Quan Yin with the Earth Mother/Goddess. I have statues representing all 3 on my altar, and I kind of look at them as one spiritual being. I don't pray to Pan or the Horned one....for me it's God (the Christian God) and the Earth Mother. I even have a Rosary on my altar and I've never been Catholic :lol:.

[Aine of the Fae]

I haven't ever thought of associating the Holy trinity with elements....I have, however, been working on the association of Mary and Quan Yin with the Earth Mother/Goddess. I have statues representing all 3 on my altar, and I kind of look at them as one spiritual being. I don't pray to Pan or the Horned one....for me it's God (the Christian God) and the Earth Mother. I even have a Rosary on my altar and I've never been Catholic :lol:.


I've never been Catholic, but I recently got a rosary on Ebay and I can't wait until it comes in the mail. You can see it here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4907466065&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

It's hematite, my favorite stone! I'm so excited :lol:

[Morr]

My altar is kind of a mess now.. I'm going through a major shift in spirituality, probably towards this very direction but with a lot of reserve for several reasons..
As for now, I have two white candles sitting on it, my incense burner, a picture of Stonehenge, a little statue of a pixie, a box that holds a rosary within it and on the box there is a drawing of Mother Mary & the Sacred Heart and on the other side theres a Rose. I also have my other Rosary that I got in the Vatican on my Altar as well (in a box too). I got my fave Tarot Deck sitting on my Altar as well..

I never really thought of associating the Trinity with the 4 elements. personally, for me it doesnt work to be honest.

[Faeawyn]

I've never been Catholic, but I recently got a rosary on Ebay and I can't wait until it comes in the mail. You can see it here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4907466065&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

It's hematite, my favorite stone! I'm so excited :lol:
Thats beautiful Aine....I may have to get one of those too :lol: I bought this one off Ebay a month ago and love it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11670&item=6104925205&rd=1

[Brinclhof]

My altar is kind of a mess now.. I'm going through a major shift in spirituality, probably towards this very direction but with a lot of reserve for several reasons..
As for now, I have two white candles sitting on it, my incense burner, a picture of Stonehenge, a little statue of a pixie, a box that holds a rosary within it and on the box there is a drawing of Mother Mary & the Sacred Heart and on the other side theres a Rose. I also have my other Rosary that I got in the Vatican on my Altar as well (in a box too). I got my fave Tarot Deck sitting on my Altar as well..

My altar consists of 3 stones that I brought from my parents home in Texas. I wanted stones from Texas to hopefully help me reconnect with the astral plane (since I am able to sense the astral plane in texas but not where I live now.) I burn incense directly on one of hte stones and I have two configurations one compact with the stones stacked and one with the stones spread out for offerings and spell work. I know it is very plain but it works for me.



I never really thought of associating the Trinity with the 4 elements. personally, for me it doesnt work to be honest.

I'm not totally sure if the association with the four elements is going to work for me either. But Aine's associations made alot more sense than the associations I used in my altar blessing ritual.

If you want to see a copy of my altar ritual let me know.

[HorseCrow]

Excellent sites.

[Aine of the Fae]

My altar is kind of a mess now.. I'm going through a major shift in spirituality, probably towards this very direction but with a lot of reserve for several reasons..
As for now, I have two white candles sitting on it, my incense burner, a picture of Stonehenge, a little statue of a pixie, a box that holds a rosary within it and on the box there is a drawing of Mother Mary & the Sacred Heart and on the other side theres a Rose. I also have my other Rosary that I got in the Vatican on my Altar as well (in a box too). I got my fave Tarot Deck sitting on my Altar as well..

I never really thought of associating the Trinity with the 4 elements. personally, for me it doesnt work to be honest.

I was sooo hesitant when I found that Christ was calling to me. I freaked out! I did NOT want to be a Christian. I was a happy Pagan! When I finally listened he threw me into system shock by sending me to a fundamentalist church. Scary thing was, at the time, I loved it. :wtf: Still do in some ways. I love the worship atmosphere, I love that if I want to bow down or yell out hallelujahs in the middle of service, they aren't going to freak out on me. However, I find serious fault with their Theological views and with their interpretation of the Bible. And they are starting to freak out on me because of my Pagan past. At first they were ok with it, but now there talking about Deliverance.... scary, scary thing... think it might be time to find a new church.... I think God sent me to that church to show me the extremes of spirituality. I've seen Pagan fundamentalists, and I was shown what it was like to BE a Christian fundamentalist. While I don't agree with them, I can understand them better now. I thought I was a tolerant person before, but I am even more so now.

As for an altar, I don't have one at the moment. My husband maintained his dragon altar though. I keep getting "I told you so" looks from him every time I pull out my cards or a book. I ALMOST burned them all!!! I am sooo glad I didn't.

I can understand the association of the elements with the Trinity, however I don't think it's something I'll use, simply because I don't think the Trinity needs that association, it's powerful enough on it's own.

[Aine of the Fae]

Thats beautiful Aine....I may have to get one of those too :lol: I bought this one off Ebay a month ago and love it
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11670&item=6104925205&rd=1

Oh, that's pretty! That's my husbands birth month stone! Ooh, she's got a Sapphire one too! Yay september!!

I'm thinking about getting one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6105272979&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

It's a Buddhist Mala and the beads are natural, they're Rudrakshah, which is an Indian seed that has spiritual properties of healing and the ability to help with concentration during meditation!

[Aine of the Fae]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?

[Brinclhof]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?

My first response is to think about Shakespear

"what's in a name, A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet"

so my first thought is no it wouldn't change anything in the worship but I will think on it some more.

[CeSeun]

First of all this is wonderful!

I am newly returned to Christian Witchcraft/Christo-Paganism/Christian Wicca. Brought up Catholic - church on Sundays! :zzzzZZZ: but feeling the draw/calling of Wicca I dabbled during the late 80's. Feeling frustrated and alone I stopped looking for answers. I have now returned, and am so glad I did.

I am defenately going to visit the sites (thanks Aine of the Fae!) I have not yet set up an alter..don't know where to start. As for the items I have already aquired: Crystals, candles, and of course a Rosary (from Lordes). I am also having trouble linking the Goddess/God to Jesus/God/Mary/Holy Trinity. Although this is a thought I had: God is God he/she who created everything..does it matter by which name we call God? Like Brinclhof I also think of Shakespear's "what's in a name..."

I feel a bit overwhelmed at the moment...not knowing what to do first, where to start...

I'm glad to have stopped in today to find this thread though! It is wonderful to not feel so alone anymore :woot:

[Tobias]

I love that if I want to bow down or yell out hallelujahs in the middle of service, they aren't going to freak out on me.

Aine,

You call that a Fundimentalist church?? LOL, I guess even Charismatic/Penticostal churches can be very fundimental when it comes to their doctrines and beliefs in the Bible. I don't think you are going to do much better in finding a different church though, unless you live in a big city that has lots of them. Most of the time the only place they leave for God to speak or do anything is during your personal Bible reading.

Deliverance could be a bit tricky to get through, if you decide to go that route. You have to do a lot of renouncing and confession of sin, last I checked. I've been a deliverance minister, but it seems like everybody does it differently. The whole principle of it is good, because there do tend to be a lot of negative energies that attach themselves to us; but the Christian way to get rid of them is to confess every possible sin you may ever have committed (and sometimes your parents' sins and grandparents'), with the end goal of being perfectly right in God's eyes so that He will remove all negative oppression. Witchcraft, of course, is a real biggie when it comes to things to repent for.

Personally though, God had me spend years and years in church growing and learning all kinds of stuff that has helped me on my way. There were many things He taught me though that I had to keep hidden. And, I saw many minor miracles He worked on my behalf to keep me "off the radar", to where nobody asked point blank what exactly I believe.

This is one of the areas that taught me how to have faith in God. Sometimes my heart was beatting out of my chest, just sure I was going to get caught and exposed this time. But it never happened. As long as God wanted me to be in church, and as many ministries as He wanted me to partisipate in and learn from, no one ever found out that my personal beliefs differed from theirs because I listen to God and believe what He sais over the Bible and church doctrine.

[Tobias]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?


I spent some time in a Messianic Congregation, wich is basically a mix between Judaism and Christianity. The original followers of Jesus for many years followed the old Jewish law, and the teachings of Jesus. There are many things in Judaism that point to the nature of God, and it was really cool learning from a Christian Rabbi how it all fits in with Christianity.

Anyway, yes, they did use all the Jewish names for God. Yeshua Ha'Meshiah (Jesus the Christ) and the Ruach Ha'Kaddesh (Holy Spirit). They've even gone through the whole Bible changing all the names back to their original Jewish form, instead of the English version we are used to.

[Faeawyn]

Have you seen this prayer? Its to be used with prayer beads and I thought it was just wonderful :)

On the Centering Bead I say some favorite prayer like the Lord's Prayer, or like my adaptation which I call the Lady's Prayer:.
Dear Lady of the earth and stars,
Blessed be your name.
May justice come, and right be done
On earth as in our dreams.
Grant us the wisdom and courage we need
And forgive us when we fail
As we forgive those who fail us.
And help us hold back the darkness
In the world and in our own hearts.
So may it be.
On the Warm Up beads I say,
I look to the East, and I see you in the early morning dawn. I feel you in the fragrant wind that sweeps across the prairie in the springtime of the year.
I look to the South and I see you in the high sun of noon. I feel you in the rippling heat that shimmers in the desert lands in the summer of the year.
I look to the West and I see you in the twilight of the evening. I feel you in the waterfalls that tumble down the mountainside in the autumn of the year.
I look to the North and I see you in the starry skies of night. I feel you in the standing stones left by glaciers long ago in the winter of the year.
After I pause on the Naming bead, I say the following on the next seven beads:
You made the light and the stars and the vastness of space.
You made the blue-green earth, with its mountains, forests, rivers and seas.
You made the ever-changing cycle of the seasons, the green things that grow,
multiply, die, are buried, and grow again.
You made the new-born creatures that struggle from the womb to open wondering
eyes on a new world.
You made the sweet rest of death, and sleep to teach us not to fear.
You made our human hearts filled with violence and love, and our human
hands that can hurt or heal.
You made hope that lights candles and sings in the darkness until walls
crumble away.
After I pause on the Knowing bead, I say the following on the next seven beads:
When I am selfish, help me to be generous.
When I am greedy, help me to be content.
When I am angry, help me to be patient.
When I am grouchy, help me to be kind.
When I am gossipy, help me to be silent.
When I am frightened, help me to be brave.
When I am anxious, help me to be wise.
The next section takes the longest, because as I pray for blessings on each group of people, I pause and imagine a beautiful golden light streaming down over each person in the group, filling them with peace and joy. After I pause on the Loving bead, I say the following on the next seven beads:
Please bless my family.
Please bless my friends.
Please bless my enemies.
Please bless our leaders and help them to be wise.
Please bless those in sickness, pain and poverty.
Please bless those in captivity and danger.
Please bless me.
Then I pause on the Listening Bead, talking silently to God and listening for the reply. Finally I do the Cool Down beads, saying:
I look to the East, and I thank you for the early morning dawn. I thank you for the fragrant wind that sweeps across the prairie in the springtime of the year.
I look to the South and I thank you for the high sun of noon. I thank you for the rippling heat that shimmers in the desert lands in the summer of the year.
I look to the West and I thank you for the twilight of the evening. I thank you for the waterfalls that tumble down the mountainside in the autumn of the year.
I look to the North and I thank you for the starry skies of night. I thank you for the standing stones left by glaciers long ago in the winter of the year.

[Calyx]

That was quite lovely and inspirational, Faewyn!
Thanks for sharing that--may I use some of it? :hugz:

[luna rising]

Faeawyn, The Lady's Prayer is absolutely wonderful! I've always used my own words for my daily blessing, but if you don't mind, I might have to switch it up with yours once in a while :)

I don't know that I could ever really call myself a Christian Witch. I have never been baptised, and beyond that, it is really all the Dogma, not the beliefs, of modern Christianity that I have a problem with. I have never really felt a calling to Jesus, but I definitely feel pulled to Mary, even more so to the Shekhina, and most of all to Mary Magdelene. I also have trouble coming to a conclusion on whether or not I believe God is a conscious entity.

But on my altar I have two very large statues - probably about a foot and a half tall - of Mary and Jesus. Their faces are full of serenity and wisdom, and those are wonderful focus points for me. Plus, they were my grandmothers, and my mother's after her - so I feel a deep ancestral connection when I look at them.

I really don't understand why people get in such a huff when it comes to the topic of Christian Witchcraft/Wicca etc. The pantheons that are most prevalent in modern paganism are archaic, but at one time they were practiced with as much Dogma and vehemence as is modern Christianity. And so long as we are kind and just to our fellow man, Jesus would not condemn us. If you are on a polytheistic path, especially one that crosses pantheons, how is it possible to say that one is wrong? Modern Catholicism, with its Saints, can even be considered polytheistic. Because when you get down to the fundamentals - oooh, bad word choice -- when you get down to the basics, Christianity is really just another pantheon: a representation of what makes you feel spiritually whole.

So I cheer for those of you that are Christo/Pagans. Thanks for the good links, and thanks for the good thread :)

[Faeawyn]

That was quite lovely and inspirational, Faewyn!
Thanks for sharing that--may I use some of it? :hugz:
of course :)

[Faeawyn]

http://northernway.org/school/onw/prayers.html
this site has some nice ones too....especially this one:

Earth Rosary
by Anne Safyre
From http://www.sacredgrove.com/1%20earth%20healing%20rosary.htm

The purpose of the Earth Rosary is to pray for the healing of the Earth and Her children.

The gold/ brown decade is for Africa
The purple/rose decade is for the Americas
The green decade is for Europe
The blue/aqua decade is for Oceania
The white/yellow decade is for Asia

If you are making an Earth Rosary, use the colors of your choice for the beads, or just use any standard rosary you already have.

On the medal, cross or pendant of your rosary say the

Prayer for the World:

May the World be led to the Truth and the Light, through the King and Queen of Peace, Justice, Mercy and Love. May we be shown the Divine Purpose of the Earth, and receive Her brightest blessings!

On the first bead say the

Sky Father Prayer:
Our Father, who art the Heavens, hallowed be Thy name
May peace and love reign on Earth as they do in the Summerland.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us for hurting our Mother the Earth. Help us to teach others The Way of Caring.
And lead us from destruction by delivering us from ignorance and greed.
So mote it be.

Say the Hail Mother on each of the next three beads for Our Mother the Earth, who has been so desecrated at the hands of mankind:

Hail Mother, full of grace Thy gifts to us are abundant!
Holy Earth , Mother of us all
Our beloved, living home! Receive the Healing Energies we send to You
As we receive your Most Holy Healing Power, Goddess Almighty.
So mote it be.

On the 5th bead say the Sky Father Prayer again:

Our Father, who art the Heavens, hallowed be Thy name
May peace and love reign on Earth as they do in the Summerland.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us for hurting our Mother the Earth. Help us to teach others The Way of Caring. And lead us from destruction by delivering us from ignorance and greed.
So mote it be.

As you pass through the gate of the central medal and enter the circle of this rosary, honor the blessings of the Guardian ArchAngels of the four directions and elements:

Ariel, ArchAngel of the Earth,
Guide us now and at the hour of our rebirth.

Raphael, ArchAngel of the Air,
Help us to heal and to care.

Michael, ArchAngel of Fire
Let love be our greatest desire.

Gabriel, ArchAngel of the Waters
Protect the God/dess' sons and daughters.

On each of the decade beads say the Hail Mother prayer:

Hail Mother, full of grace Thy Gifts to us are abundant! Holy Earth, Mother of Life! Our beloved, living home! Help us to care for and heal You and others as we would Care for and heal ourselves. So mote it be.

On the divider beads that follow each decade, say the Glory Be to Gaia, the Sun and the Great Spirit:

Glory Be to Life-Giving Gaia, And to the Sun for His Light and His Warmth, and to the Great Spirit that dwells in all Living things on Earth. As it Was in the beginning , is now And ever shall be, World Divinely created and without end.

Close the circle of the rosary with The Earth Blessing:
Let the sacred circle of this Rosary remind us of the Miracle that is the Earth.
Let Her love and peace Encircle us and guide us in all we do.

Blessed Be!
Blessed Be!
Blessed Be!

[Morr]

I was wondering if anybody would be interested -
Since i live in Israel, in the Christian areas here theres a lot of stores that sell rosaries (made from olive tree wood taken from Jerusalem/Beth Lehem), holy water from the Jordan River/Holy Oil made of Olive Trees/Holy Land Earth (from Bethlehem), pictures of Jesus & Mary, etc...
i live about 5 minutes away from one of the more larger Christian Communities in Israel, so they have stores like that over there.
So if any of you are interested for something like that for yourself & altar - dont hesitate to ask :) Rosaries are generally $4 and come ina white box with a drawing of Mary on one side, and a drawing of a Rose on the other, and the Rosary smells like roses (i own one too - i LOVE it!)... the holy water/oil/earth usually come in a small packet together all three, each in small bottles.. costs about $3. (Shipping from here to the US is $1 for the Rosary, and $2 for the water/oil/earth packet).
I dont mind trading for even local rosaries you guys can find there, or anything else you can offer for trade.

So if anyone is interested - PM me!

[Brinclhof]

Anyone doing anyhthing for the blue moon this month?

I am thinking about doing something but I don't know what I would do or even what I should do.

Posting this here to get the christo-pagan view point and will probably post under new pagans to get the general view point.

[Aine of the Fae]

Aine,

You call that a Fundimentalist church?? LOL, I guess even Charismatic/Penticostal churches can be very fundimental when it comes to their doctrines and beliefs in the Bible. I don't think you are going to do much better in finding a different church though, unless you live in a big city that has lots of them. Most of the time the only place they leave for God to speak or do anything is during your personal Bible reading.

Deliverance could be a bit tricky to get through, if you decide to go that route. You have to do a lot of renouncing and confession of sin, last I checked. I've been a deliverance minister, but it seems like everybody does it differently. The whole principle of it is good, because there do tend to be a lot of negative energies that attach themselves to us; but the Christian way to get rid of them is to confess every possible sin you may ever have committed (and sometimes your parents' sins and grandparents'), with the end goal of being perfectly right in God's eyes so that He will remove all negative oppression. Witchcraft, of course, is a real biggie when it comes to things to repent for.

Personally though, God had me spend years and years in church growing and learning all kinds of stuff that has helped me on my way. There were many things He taught me though that I had to keep hidden. And, I saw many minor miracles He worked on my behalf to keep me "off the radar", to where nobody asked point blank what exactly I believe.

This is one of the areas that taught me how to have faith in God. Sometimes my heart was beatting out of my chest, just sure I was going to get caught and exposed this time. But it never happened. As long as God wanted me to be in church, and as many ministries as He wanted me to partisipate in and learn from, no one ever found out that my personal beliefs differed from theirs because I listen to God and believe what He sais over the Bible and church doctrine.


I DON'T want to go through the deliverance. Ick... My sins are between God and I and they are no one elses business!

As far as finding a church, I have to walk away from the one I'm at now. God isn't giving me at a choice. He threw me in there, shock treatment I guess you'd call it, and now wants me elsewhere. Not sure exactly where that is yet... but I'll find it.

[Aine of the Fae]

Anyone doing anyhthing for the blue moon this month?

I am thinking about doing something but I don't know what I would do or even what I should do.

Posting this here to get the christo-pagan view point and will probably post under new pagans to get the general view point.

I'm not doing anything for it... but I don't usually celebrate the moons.

[Aine of the Fae]

http://www.worldprayers.org/

This site has tons of prayers from all different faiths. You can search by topic, or get random prayers.

[Brinclhof]

I DON'T want to go through the deliverance. Ick... My sins are between God and I and they are no one elses business!

As far as finding a church, I have to walk away from the one I'm at now. God isn't giving me at a choice. He threw me in there, shock treatment I guess you'd call it, and now wants me elsewhere. Not sure exactly where that is yet... but I'll find it.

Ever thought about Methodist. It would be a very drastic change from the fundamental church you have been attending. Most methodist churches are fairly liberal and open minded.

[Aine of the Fae]

Ever thought about Methodist. It would be a very drastic change from the fundamental church you have been attending. Most methodist churches are fairly liberal and open minded.

Actually I'm considering going to the local Methodist church. My grandmother is a retired Methodist minister and she goes to that church too. I KNOW the pastor of that church is fairly liberal, my grandmother had to meet with him about something and I drove her and saw some very interesting books on his shelf. Not the kind of books you'd expect to find on a Christian minister's bookshelf :)

[Aine of the Fae]

Here's a prayer I found on the World Prayers site:


O Gods!
All your names and forms are to be
revered, saluted and adored.

rig veda X, 63, 2

[Kalika]

Good way to help people understand Christo-Paganism and Christian Witches a bit better. :)

[Morr]

I DON'T want to go through the deliverance. Ick... My sins are between God and I and they are no one elses business!

As far as finding a church, I have to walk away from the one I'm at now. God isn't giving me at a choice. He threw me in there, shock treatment I guess you'd call it, and now wants me elsewhere. Not sure exactly where that is yet... but I'll find it.

Aine,
why do you always say that God is sending you to.../wanting you to...? do you think that every single move in your life/spiritual life is caused according to God's will only and in his direction of how it will happen?
Dont you think God will trust you to get to where you need to get through decision YOU make? Your own mistakes and learning lessons? etc.

Just throwing that in there.........
would love to hear what the rest of you think on the subject (in general, not in Aine's specific situation).

[Brinclhof]

Aine,
why do you always say that God is sending you to.../wanting you to...? do you think that every single move in your life/spiritual life is caused according to God's will only and in his direction of how it will happen?
Dont you think God will trust you to get to where you need to get through decision YOU make? Your own mistakes and learning lessons? etc.

Just throwing that in there.........
would love to hear what the rest of you think on the subject (in general, not in Aine's specific situation).

Well I can't speak for Aine but I personally don't believe that God is responsible for every spiritual move I make. I do think he has an influence though. As I have started down this path I have spent a good bit of time in prayer and meditation. I have gotten a sense of peace and acceptance since I have started on path that I feel he is at least approving of my decision and guideing me on my journey.

I have been unhappy in my church for a while and have felt like something was missing from my spiritual life. I have been searching for something for a while and my wife got involved in our local pagan community. She got me going to some events and after a weekend retreat I felt I had found what I was missing. That is when i started down this path.

just my opinion. I feel that you can feel the influence of God in your life and at times he sends very clear messages.

[Ron]

Anyone doing anyhthing for the blue moon this month?

I am thinking about doing something but I don't know what I would do or even what I should do.

Posting this here to get the christo-pagan view point and will probably post under new pagans to get the general view point.
Me bites himself.... what is a blue moon? :hairred:

[Ron]

Friday night brings us the first of two full moons this month. Some almanacs and calendars assert that when two full moons occur within a calendar month, the second full moon is called the “Blue Moon.” That second full moon will come July 31. The full moon that night will look no different from any other full moon.

lol... never mind about my blue moon forgetfulness in my last post...

I'm not doing much, actually it is my Gwyl Canol Haf (Litha) Esbat... don't hate me lol... I know the solstice was like last week.

[Ron]

Friday night brings us the first of two full moons this month. Some almanacs and calendars assert that when two full moons occur within a calendar month, the second full moon is called the “Blue Moon.” That second full moon will come July 31. The full moon that night will look no different from any other full moon.

ooo I see!! :)

I'm not doing anything *special* because I don't follow the Gregorian calendar.

[Brinclhof]

Me bites himself.... what is a blue moon? :hairred:

A blue moon is the term used for the second full moon within a single month(I think). I don't know if it really has any special significance. That is one reason I was asking if anyone was doing anything to celebrate it.

I also posted this thread under New pagans to try and get some information there.

[Tobias]

God has always been very specific and direct in telling me what to do. I understand completely what Aine is talking about. It's not like He forces you to do His will or anything, it's just that if you want His influence in your life you'd better keep up with following Him or you'll get left behind on your own.

That's why I still call Him the God of the Bible. He acts just the same in many ways. It is impossible to please Him without responding to what He says in faith. You have to weed out tons of stuff they teach you in Christianity, yet when everything's said and done He is the one and only God of the Christians, and who's ways are explained through the Bible.

[Tobias]

I guess I should mention too, that a lot of my path centers around the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus always spoke of. You'd think it would be the core of Christianity, but most just pass it over like it's only got to do with what happens after we die.

But Jesus said it was for right here and now, so I've been learning what it means to be a member of it. For a while ther God let me talk to some of the angels around here who have been serving Him for many many years. Why do they willingly obey His commands? Because they too desire to see happen what He asks them to do. By joining forces with so many others much more can be accomplished than if everyone does their own thing.

I love the influence that God has had in my life. I want to partisipate in doing the same for others, more so than I want to be the one to dictate what happens in my own life. It is only understandable that anyone wanting a place in the "Kingdom" would have to learn how important it is to be reliable to carry out the part of the plan that's assigned to you. One person deciding to take the day off could ruin everything that so many others have worked for.

So, though at times it may seem that God is rather anal about having things done a certain way, He is always patient to teach me the how and why He asked me to do something. Ultimately I imagine that it is My choice of whether I participate in this or not. The only other choice I've come across in the past though is a dull boring Muggle life.

He did ask me recently if I wish to continue. I doubt at this point that I would have to drop all spiritual involvement like I did before. Come to think of it, the time I did tell Him to "go shove it" I also said I wanted to be a "normal Christian" again. Hmmm...

It doesn't really matter. I want to be a part of His Kingdom. I don't know if I will still feel this way forever in the future, but He has assured me that I'm always free to bail out if I want.

[Morr]

i personally dont think that god is 100% all the time tangled & is part of my life & the events in it..
i like to think that i have *some* control over my life and that I do things because IVE accomplished them or because I needed to learn a lesson through making choices & think about my path in life... Not because some higher power pushed me there to teach me a lesson, or that it was all premeditated.. because if it is so - Why make any choices in life at all? If god is the one pushing & planning & orchestrating your life and where its heading - Why bother to do anything at all?

I think that God is there when you seek him, but is not there all the time in a 100% manner.

Like, Aine, in your case -
you say God sent you to that fundie church to get a "shock" of how people can get when it comes to religion.. well those same people will say "god called you, you came, but Satan used his evil doings and managed to tempt you to leave the church and now youre doomed"... and I say "you were going through a rough patch in your spirituality.. you needed answers & seeked guidance, and the first choice you made - was a mistake. But you experienced it on all levels and decided that it was not for you. This brought you to the spiritual direction you are now within and are comfortable with".

So whos right?
I'm not saying that the inspiration, love & essence of God isnt there all the time. I personally think it is - Our Soul IS part of God, in my opinion. And we each possese a soul. However, I think that God doesnt call every single shot in our lives and doesnt "bring" us places or "pushes" us to places.

But thats just my opinion of course.

[Aine of the Fae]

Aine,
why do you always say that God is sending you to.../wanting you to...? do you think that every single move in your life/spiritual life is caused according to God's will only and in his direction of how it will happen?
Dont you think God will trust you to get to where you need to get through decision YOU make? Your own mistakes and learning lessons? etc.

Just throwing that in there.........
would love to hear what the rest of you think on the subject (in general, not in Aine's specific situation).

I don't think God is guiding every move in my spiritual life, however I find that when I find a comfort zone, things tend to get a bit shaken up to throw me out of it. Like now, I thought I'd found a church that I liked. But a few things have happened that are pulling me away from it. Is it God? Or is it all in my head? I don't really know, but I trust that I'll go where I need to be and I trust that it's God doing it.

[Aine of the Fae]

i personally dont think that god is 100% all the time tangled & is part of my life & the events in it..
i like to think that i have *some* control over my life and that I do things because IVE accomplished them or because I needed to learn a lesson through making choices & think about my path in life... Not because some higher power pushed me there to teach me a lesson, or that it was all premeditated.. because if it is so - Why make any choices in life at all? If god is the one pushing & planning & orchestrating your life and where its heading - Why bother to do anything at all?

I think that God is there when you seek him, but is not there all the time in a 100% manner.

Like, Aine, in your case -
you say God sent you to that fundie church to get a "shock" of how people can get when it comes to religion.. well those same people will say "god called you, you came, but Satan used his evil doings and managed to tempt you to leave the church and now youre doomed"... and I say "you were going through a rough patch in your spirituality.. you needed answers & seeked guidance, and the first choice you made - was a mistake. But you experienced it on all levels and decided that it was not for you. This brought you to the spiritual direction you are now within and are comfortable with".

So whos right?
I'm not saying that the inspiration, love & essence of God isnt there all the time. I personally think it is - Our Soul IS part of God, in my opinion. And we each possese a soul. However, I think that God doesnt call every single shot in our lives and doesnt "bring" us places or "pushes" us to places.

But thats just my opinion of course.


I can understand your view Morr, but I do believe God is pushing me and pulling me. I believe this because the more I resist Him, the more of a mess my life becomes. When I finally said "Ok, God, what is it you want me to do, what do you want from me?" and I listened, and I did it, my life finally started to straighten out. That may not be God, it may be my higher self or a highly overactive imagination, however I choose to believe that it's God, because I need to believe it's God. At least in this point in my life I do.

And yes, the church I've been going to does think it's Satan leading me away from the 'safety of their walls.' However, I came to a realization during the week before Pentacost. It was an experience that made me realize that the only evil in this world is man made, there is only God, there is no Devil, and ALL good things, no matter WHAT religion, all good things, come from God.

Let me explain.

The week befor Pentacost Sunday my church had prayer nights every night. I went to the first one on Monday and there were only four other people there, the pastor and his wife, the music minister and one of the other members. And let me tell you Pentacostals/Charismatics can pray!!! I'd never encountered 'Speaking in Tongues' before, but I expected it. What I didn't expect was the power, the energy raised in that church that night. It was amazing. But, and this is a HUGE but for me, it felt exactly the same as the power raised in circle by a group of witches that I used to work with! It felt the same, it tasted the same, my body responded in the same way, everything about it was the same, except the religion. It really made me realize that it's ALL from God, no matter what name you call it by! A spell is just a ritualized prayer, a prayer is just a spell with no tools! It's all the same. And that's when I started coming back toward my Pagan roots. But I didn't want to abandon Christianity altogether, I felt too good with Christ.

And that's been the difficult part, uniting my past with my present to become one future. It's been hard, I've had many doubts. I still have doubts! I still question everyday if I'm doing the right thing. And then something will happen to remind me that it's ok, it's all from God and therefore it CAN'T be wrong! Anything I do to benefit another person, to benefit myself without harming another person, or to benefit the Earth, is good and it's from God. It doesn't matter what name I call it, it doesn't matter what religion it claims to be from, because it's all from, and it all leads to the same place.

At least that's what I believe.

[Faeawyn]

I believe in God as a sort of father figure. He's there when I need help, teaches me what he feels I need to know, he guides me in the right direction, but ultimately, leaves the decisions to me and supports me in those decisions. In my belief, my path was written by me in accordance with God before I was born....and it's mine to follow. If I stray, I may lose sight of the lessons I need to learn until I find my way back again. All the while, he is patient and understanding :)

[Morr]

I believe in God as a sort of father figure. He's there when I need help, teaches me what he feels I need to know, he guides me in the right direction, but ultimately, leaves the decisions to me and supports me in those decisions. In my belief, my path was written by me in accordance with God before I was born....and it's mine to follow. If I stray, I may lose sight of the lessons I need to learn until I find my way back again. All the while, he is patient and understanding :)

yeah Faeawyn just put it in better words then I did..
ths is pretty much how i view it all as well.

[Tobias]

What I didn't expect was the power, the energy raised in that church that night. It was amazing. But, and this is a HUGE but for me, it felt exactly the same as the power raised in circle by a group of witches that I used to work with! It felt the same, it tasted the same, my body responded in the same way, everything about it was the same, except the religion. It really made me realize that it's ALL from God, no matter what name you call it by!

This is exactly where I'm coming from. I've spent years and years focusing on this power, and learning what to do to cause God to show up like that. I am quite baffled to find out that Pagans can work with the same power. But I can't deny that it is God who has led me here, and that much of what i've had the opportunity to discern comes from the same sourse that I'm familliar with.

I know that the reason my path is narrow is because there is a specific job that God would love to have me do. I do have a choice of whether I want to recieve the training and take the job. Why should I say no? I can't think of anything funer and more exciting than living a magickal life following the leading of a god I cannot see.

[Morr]

I am quite baffled to find out that Pagans can work with the same power.


why are you baffled?

Divine has many faces.
There is no right or wrong.
All religions have the same common ground - which is Divine guidance, love & teaching.

Its what humans do later on with these Divine gifts that curropt religions, cause war & hate.

[Aine of the Fae]

I believe in God as a sort of father figure. He's there when I need help, teaches me what he feels I need to know, he guides me in the right direction, but ultimately, leaves the decisions to me and supports me in those decisions. In my belief, my path was written by me in accordance with God before I was born....and it's mine to follow. If I stray, I may lose sight of the lessons I need to learn until I find my way back again. All the while, he is patient and understanding :)

That pretty much describes how I see it! God and I actively working together. God knows better than I do about wherre I'm going because the human mind just doesn't remember anything beyond the current life.

[Tobias]

Morr said:

i like to think that i have *some* control over my life and that I do things because IVE accomplished them or because I needed to learn a lesson through making choices & think about my path in life... Not because some higher power pushed me there to teach me a lesson, or that it was all premeditated.. because if it is so - Why make any choices in life at all? If god is the one pushing & planning & orchestrating your life and where its heading - Why bother to do anything at all?


I think that the doctines about God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience are some of the worst poisons in Christianity. They take away our whole reason for existence, and leave us with nothing to do but try and kiss up to Him.

Mabey this is why many Pagans object so strongly to any path that includes some Christianity?

[Tobias]

why are you baffled?

Divine has many faces.
There is no right or wrong.
All religions have the same common ground - which is Divine guidance, love & teaching.

Its what humans do later on with these Divine gifts that curropt religions, cause war & hate.


Why am I baffled?? Perhaps you haven't heard, but most Christians have an aversion to accepting Pagans, Witches, and Witchcraft...

But, I'm seeing that God in His divine Grace has reached out to all mankind and answered their need for guidance, no matter the culture or what face that they paint on Him. In fact, I imagine the same has been done for Christians, and what I understand to be "God" is just another face of the Divine.

[Phi]

Well hello! Aine of the Fae, how courageous you are.
I began my journey with a pledge at 7 to follow Christ.
It was exceedingly hard for me because I immediately began to question, and was told by elders in the church "There are some things you just don't ask." To which I replied, "Why?" They said "There are some things we are not meant to understand." To which I replied "Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall open, ask and it shall be given..." He says to ask, you say I shouldn't ask...I'll go by what he says..."
(Keep in mind I was 7-8 years old then, now I am 52.)
Some time ago I left off calling myself "Christian" because it had been taken over by many who did not follow, and because it seemed to give others (Christian and non-Christian alike) a point of view regarding me that was incorrect. I came to the conclusion that I was not "Christian" as that word is defined in our world, even though I had not gone back on my childhood pledge. He said "seek" so I call myself a "seeker."
I could say much, because I have studied much. But for now, I will just say hi. :wave:

[Phi]

Morr said:


I think that the doctines about God's Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience are some of the worst poisons in Christianity. They take away our whole reason for existence, and leave us with nothing to do but try and kiss up to Him.

Mabey this is why many Pagans object so strongly to any path that includes some Christianity?

The energy of the sunshine is omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some very interesting ways omniscient too, here on earth, but have you felt a need to "kiss up" to sunshine? :smile:

[Tobias]

The energy of the sunshine is omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some very interesting ways omniscient too, here on earth, but have you felt a need to "kiss up" to sunshine? :smile:

For all I know God could be Omni-everything. It's the way that Christians generally see this that's the problem.

Perhaps God said He is all-powerfull so that we wouldn't worry about anything happening to us that was out of His control. Instead though Christians tend to think that what they do and how they do things doesn't matter, because God can fix anything. It's like "The Earth doesn't have to orbit around the sun to sustain life, it's just convinient that it does so." In fact, for the first few days of creation there was no sun to orbit until the day after all the plants were made.

This thinking absolves all responsibility on our part, meaning we can screw anything up that we want, and God will fix it. Blowing up the planet with nuclear wepons is a good thing, it just means God will recreate it sooner.

Omniscience has a similar effect on us. If God knows everything I'm ever going to do, what's this illusion of "Free Will"?? Nothing I do matters, it was all designed in God's head before any of us were made.

[Ben Trismegistus]

The energy of the sunshine is omnipotent, omnipresent, and in some very interesting ways omniscient too, here on earth, but have you felt a need to "kiss up" to sunshine? :smile:
How exactly is sunshine omnipotent? Can it cure cancer? Feed people? Move mountains?

Oh Aine, regarding Trinity/elemental correspondences: I would have thought that the Holy Spirit would correspond with Air. There are loads of references in the Bible equating the Holy Spirit with the wind and the Breath of Life. The word "spirit" itself comes from a word root meaning "breath".

[Aine of the Fae]

How exactly is sunshine omnipotent? Can it cure cancer? Feed people? Move mountains?

Oh Aine, regarding Trinity/elemental correspondences: I would have thought that the Holy Spirit would correspond with Air. There are loads of references in the Bible equating the Holy Spirit with the wind and the Breath of Life. The word "spirit" itself comes from a word root meaning "breath".

There is one scripture I think of when equating the Holy Spirit with Fire:

"They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2:3

This occured at Pentecost. The United Methodist emblem is a flame and a cross, the flame representing the Holy Spirit.

But yes, I can see how the Holy Spirit could also be equated with Air. Which is one of the reasons I choose not to use the elements and associate them with the Trinity. Each could be any of them.

[Phi]

How exactly is sunshine omnipotent? Can it cure cancer? Feed people? Move mountains?

Oh Aine, regarding Trinity/elemental correspondences: I would have thought that the Holy Spirit would correspond with Air. There are loads of references in the Bible equating the Holy Spirit with the wind and the Breath of Life. The word "spirit" itself comes from a word root meaning "breath".

It is omnipotent in that without it there would be no cancer, people nor mountains. (Earth revolves around the sun, there is no sunshine without the sun, therefore there will no longer be an earth should sunshine cease because that would require that the sun cease to burn...If our star goes out, so does earth and everything on it.)
It definitely feeds people, through the chlorophyll in the plants.
It may eventually be discovered whether it can cure cancer.
I suppose it could move mountains, given a particularly large burst of it...many scientists speculate about super solar flares and what might result from them. :tongueout :T

I agree with the analogy with spirit and air/breath.
The feminine principle of God is water, and breath is not dry air, but moist air...

[Ben Trismegistus]

"They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2:3
Ah yes - forgot about Pentecost. Good point!

[Morr]

I figured I'd post this on here, instead of starting a whole new thread...
I was wondering..

Amongst the Christian witches/Chritian Pagans/Christian Mystics/Gnostics/Christian influenced people on these boards -
Am I the only one who views Jesus as an enlightened teacher & a great spiritual leader, but NOT as the son of God/God incarnated/Savior/Messiah?
When I say "Messiah" or "Savior" I dont mean - Personal Messiah/Savior. I mean - THE Messiah/Savior that will come again and bring the Kingdom of God, etc..
I find that theres a BIG difference between PERSONAL Messiah, and THE Messiah...

[Chanda]

Am I the only one who views Jesus as an enlightened teacher & a great spiritual leader, but NOT as the son of God/God incarnated/Savior/Messiah?
I guess I count as a Christian influenced person... I think my view is similar to your view on Jesus. In my opinion he was a human being that had reached enlightment (kinda like Sidharta, hope I spelled that right), he was someone who had the wisdom and cared enough to want to make a change.

My biggest conflict is with Mary, I am divided as to place her as a Goddess or as a human being.

[Brinclhof]

I figured I'd post this on here, instead of starting a whole new thread...
I was wondering..

Amongst the Christian witches/Chritian Pagans/Christian Mystics/Gnostics/Christian influenced people on these boards -
Am I the only one who views Jesus as an enlightened teacher & a great spiritual leader, but NOT as the son of God/God incarnated/Savior/Messiah?
When I say "Messiah" or "Savior" I dont mean - Personal Messiah/Savior. I mean - THE Messiah/Savior that will come again and bring the Kingdom of God, etc..
I find that theres a BIG difference between PERSONAL Messiah, and THE Messiah...

I think of Jesus as THE messiah. It could be the influence I have had my entire life, being raise christian, that has drilled that idea into my brain. Most "mainstream" Christians believe that Jesus is THE messiah. Since that is where I have gotten alot of my christian beliefs that is what I beleive.

[Phi]

Personally since I believe in reincarnation, and since, I believe that that's what Jeshua meant when he said "Ye must be born again," I think you could be right either way...or both ways.

[Faeawyn]

Could you define Messiah for me please? I'm thinking messenger?? but I'm not really sure of how it's defined.

[Morr]

Could you define Messiah for me please? I'm thinking messenger?? but I'm not really sure of how it's defined.


personally, i think that a Messiah can be a personal savior.. or a spiritual teacher or guide..
I think we all have several personal messiahs in our lives... people or figures who have touched our hearts, made us think, taught us truth & valuble lessons..

Jesus, in that sense, is my personal Messiah... So is Madonna... And my best friend.. and even my dog...
They all inspire me, teach me, guide me, challenge me, help me, advise me, cheer me up, etc - in their own special way, in different aspects of my life.

[Tobias]

It makes me cringe to consider saying that Jesus wasn't the Messiah sent to save the world from sin. Yet to say that he was is to also believe in Original Sin, a doctrine which I've gladly tossed out long ago.

I guess it's something I'm not willing to face yet. I don't know the significance of Jesus, but I don't think God is a trinity anymore. I don't suppose anyone really knows the historical truth around the man Jesus, so I'm happy to just let it be.

[Morr]

It makes me cringe to consider saying that Jesus wasn't the Messiah sent to save the world from sin. Yet to say that he was is to also believe in Original Sin, a doctrine which I've gladly tossed out long ago.

I guess it's something I'm not willing to face yet. I don't know the significance of Jesus, but I don't think God is a trinity anymore. I don't suppose anyone really knows the historical truth around the man Jesus, so I'm happy to just let it be.


define sin?
"sin" is not the same in Judaism as in Christianity.
Judaism defines "sin" differently then Christianity.. VERY differently.

So what kind of a sin is Jesus the messiah of?

[Aine of the Fae]

It makes me cringe to consider saying that Jesus wasn't the Messiah sent to save the world from sin. Yet to say that he was is to also believe in Original Sin, a doctrine which I've gladly tossed out long ago.

I guess it's something I'm not willing to face yet. I don't know the significance of Jesus, but I don't think God is a trinity anymore. I don't suppose anyone really knows the historical truth around the man Jesus, so I'm happy to just let it be.

Original Sin was created by the church long after Christ was crucified. It's a justification for some of their other docrines.

[Tobias]

Original Sin is the concept that Adam and Eve blew it for the rest of us, and now everyone is doomed to hell. Jesus came as the Messiah, a sacrificial lamb whose death satisfied the need for each and every one of us to burn for eternity, but only those who call on his name get to go to heaven instead.

This is basic Evangelical (Fundimental) doctrine. It really does sound stupid, doesn't it? I've spent most of my life accepting it as truth, or at least not outright challanging it because everyone around me believes it. My whole family and most everyone I know are Christians who adhere to this doctrine.

I guess I've been avoiding firming up my beliefs about the person of Jesus, because to say he wasn't "God Incarnate" is like driving the final nail on the coffin of my Christianity. At least, that's the way it feels. In actuallity I suppose there are many different veiws concerning what Jesus' purpose here was.

I think that regardless I believe that he did fulfill the prophecies in the Old Testiment of a Messiah. Mabey not all of them. Most Jews at the time were expecting one thing but got another in Jesus. At any rate, he did change the face of religion in a positive way; and I do follow a lot of his teachings.

[Aine of the Fae]

Original Sin is the concept that Adam and Eve blew it for the rest of us, and now everyone is doomed to hell. Jesus came as the Messiah, a sacrificial lamb whose death satisfied the need for each and every one of us to burn for eternity, but only those who call on his name get to go to heaven instead.

This is basic Evangelical (Fundimental) doctrine. It really does sound stupid, doesn't it? I've spent most of my life accepting it as truth, or at least not outright challanging it because everyone around me believes it. My whole family and most everyone I know are Christians who adhere to this doctrine.

I guess I've been avoiding firming up my beliefs about the person of Jesus, because to say he wasn't "God Incarnate" is like driving the final nail on the coffin of my Christianity. At least, that's the way it feels. In actuallity I suppose there are many different veiws concerning what Jesus' purpose here was.

I think that regardless I believe that he did fulfill the prophecies in the Old Testiment of a Messiah. Mabey not all of them. Most Jews at the time were expecting one thing but got another in Jesus. At any rate, he did change the face of religion in a positive way; and I do follow a lot of his teachings.

Yeah, that's the concept, but it was still invented by the Christian church, St. Augustine I believe. It's not something found in Jewish belief at all.

As far as the prophecies? The scriptures that the Christian's use to prophecy the Messiah are entirely different than the scriptures that the Jews use to prophecy the Messiah. So yes, Jesus fulfills the Christian idea of prophecy, but not the Jewish. Saying otherwise will get Morr on ya!

[Morr]

Yeah, that's the concept, but it was still invented by the Christian church, St. Augustine I believe. It's not something found in Jewish belief at all.

As far as the prophecies? The scriptures that the Christian's use to prophecy the Messiah are entirely different than the scriptures that the Jews use to prophecy the Messiah. So yes, Jesus fulfills the Christian idea of prophecy, but not the Jewish. Saying otherwise will get Morr on ya!


i personally checked the passages/phrases used by Christianity to justify Jesus' Christhood from the OT and they are all bits & pieces from different types of books within the OT. It is not one concrete passage that soley talks about the Messiah. Moreover, I also read them all in Hebrew (because I have the original version of the OT written & compoiled in Hebrew), and the translation in English is not always accurate.

Besides i think, and I'm sorry if this offends anyone, that saying that - "the jews were waiting for one thing, but got another thing" is kind of trying to FORCE the Christhood of Jesus. Y-H-V-H promised through the OT ONE "version" of the coming of the Messiah. WHY would he all of a sudden change it, fully knowing that most of the Jews (his "chosen people") would not follow him?

I personally think that God is a tad smarter then that.

Thats why I dont personally believe that Jesus is *THE* Messiah spoken about in the OT and promised to Israel by God.

[Aine of the Fae]

See, I told ya Morr would get ya! :D

And as a Christian I can't quite figure out how the Christians decided that their prophecies were prophecies... A lot of them are snippets of scripture that just happen to describe Jesus, in a little way...

Heck, I bet I could find a bunch of snippets of scripture and say I'm Messiah if I really, really wanted to and had the time and was really bored....

[Tobias]

So, that's why there's still Judaism?? LoL!

Yes, I am aware that the prophecies fulfilled are a bit sketchy. It's also possible that some of the things conserning Jesus were exagerated or even made up to fit the prophecies.

If you look at modern day prophecy, we can see a pattern of it being very unrelyable. I've spent many years around Christians who do this. They seem to no more relyable than the Psychics or Notredamus.

So, unless anyone here is claiming special powers of accuracy were possessed by the Old Testiment prophets, what exactly is there left to look for in a Messiah? Couldn't the whole "Deliverer of Israel" have been a spiritual promise? To the Prophet, and to those who latter wrote down what they remembered of what he said, they could easily have mistaken a spiritual deliverer for what they wanted and thought they needed. Afterall, their holy books at the time all spoke of one deliverer after another who kicked foreign powers out of their land by the hand of God.

Because of Jesus, "all the nations of the Earth" have been blessed with the Jewish revelation of God. I've studied some of the message that Divinity put into the religious practices of the Jews, and it's good stuff! It's also mixed in with Man's traditions and needs sorting out, but remember too that the Jewish people have not always been willing subjects.

Jesus is a key factor in getting this truth out of the Jewish culture and into the hands of the rest of the known world. His death on the cross replaced the need for animal sacrafice in the hearts of the people. Considering the day and age, this was quite an advancement in religious thought.

[Morr]

Because of Jesus, "all the nations of the Earth" have been blessed with the Jewish revelation of God. I've studied some of the message that Divinity put into the religious practices of the Jews, and it's good stuff! It's also mixed in with Man's traditions and needs sorting out, but remember too that the Jewish people have not always been willing subjects.

Jesus is a key factor in getting this truth out of the Jewish culture and into the hands of the rest of the known world. His death on the cross replaced the need for animal sacrafice in the hearts of the people. Considering the day and age, this was quite an advancement in religious thought.


"Because of Jesus"?
who told you that? not the Jews.

How is Jesus the key factor to getting the trutho ut of the jewish culture to the rest of the nations, when Jesus himself said to first bring his teachings to the Jewish people, and only after they have heard it - only THEN to go to the gentiles... Jesus was NOT fond of gentiles at all - example - the gentile woman who begged Jesus for his healing her daughter and he was like "go away gentile woman".. and she was all like "even the dogs eat the left over of their master's dinner plate" or something to that effect...

True, the Jews have not always been willing subjects to the word of God - thats why theyve been kicked out of Israel into exile so many times... But I find it hard to believe that all knowing God who knows all too well how his chosen kids like to rebel and not subject to his word, would send off a messiah that totally doesnt fit their belief & concept of the messiah - only to make things worse and throw them off track even more.

[equinox2]

Tobias wrote:

Yes, I am aware that the prophecies fulfilled are a bit sketchy. It's also possible that some of the things conserning Jesus were exagerated or even made up to fit the prophecies.

Yeah. In fact, Tobias, we don’t have to speculate. We have hard evidence that Christians made up stories so they would seem to fulfill prophecy. One example is the fact that the Gospel of John changes the day that Jesus is killed from the day of Passover to the day before Passover. On the day before Passover, the lambs are killed, and whoever wrote the gospel of John (it wasn’t John of course) changed to day of Jesus’ death to fit his theological agenda. Just compare when they eat the Passover meal in Mk vs. John.

The virgin birth is also a clear addition – it isn’t in our oldest gospel, Mark, but appears in Luke and Matthew. It’s funny that the whole “virgin” “prophecy” is actually due to a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for “young girl”. The original Hebrew of Isaiah says nothing about a “virgin”. The birth in bethlehem also appears to be added. Everyone knew Jesus came from Nazareth (a little town in the sticks), while the scripture predicted that the messiah would come from bethlehem.

The other prophecies are usually little lines of text taken out of context or otherwise “stretched” to make them sound like a prediction, or sound like they fit Jesus. There are plenty of other examples too. Being that the old testament is HUGE (it makes up more than 80% of the Bible), there is a lot of text to search through to try to find something that can almost fit if you squint your eyes just right. See this, it is no wonder that nearly all the Jews couldn’t see Jesus as the Messiah. Paul acknowledges this in 1Cor1:23. Paul writes:


we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

Aine of the Fae wrote:

Heck, I bet I could find a bunch of snippets of scripture and say I'm Messiah if I really, really wanted to and had the time and was really bored.... I agree. All hail Aine of the Fae!!! :hailmol:

Tobias wrote:

His death on the cross replaced the need for animal sacrafice in the hearts of the people.

For a few Jews (mainly the Ebionites), that’s true. But for the majority of Jews it was the destruction of the sacred temple in Jerusalem around 70 CE. The law commanded that the animals were to be sacrificed in the temple, so no temple = no sacrifices. Jesus had nothing to do with it.

See ya-

[Tobias]

I'm not trying to attribute anything to Jesus that he doesn't deserve. It is true that he shunned the gentiles. But without Jesus, and subsequently his disciples (and Paul), would the Jew's knowlage of God ever had made it out of the Jewish culture? Or was Mohamad the messiah instead?

So Morr, what's your take on the whole thing? Are you waiting for a physical messiah to be born to save the nation of Israel, uproot their system of democracy, and establish a kingdom that will never end? Will he too be born of a virgin, or just a "young maiden"?

[Morr]

I'm not trying to attribute anything to Jesus that he doesn't deserve. It is true that he shunned the gentiles. But without Jesus, and subsequently his disciples (and Paul), would the Jew's knowlage of God ever had made it out of the Jewish culture? Or was Mohamad the messiah instead?

So Morr, what's your take on the whole thing? Are you waiting for a physical messiah to be born to save the nation of Israel, uproot their system of democracy, and establish a kingdom that will never end? Will he too be born of a virgin, or just a "young maiden"?


First of all,
why is the Jews' knowlege of god the only true knowlege of God? Why isnt the Pagan knowlege/understanding of God the true one? And I have a bone to pick with Paul, personally - so dont get me started.

Second,
I dont believe in the concept of the messiah. I think thats something that was made up to bring hope to people. I think that YOU can make your life a living hell or a living heaven. YOU have to work for it. YOU have to work on your connection with God. YOU have to work in order to be worthy of being PART of GOD.
Nobody can or will do it for you. Nobody will save your or bring the Kingdom of God to you. YOU have to do it by yourself. Each of us has to do it by ourselves and for ourselves.

[Tobias]

First of all, why is the Jews' knowlege of god the only true knowlege of God? Why isnt the Pagan knowlege/understanding of God the true one?

That does bring up some pretty deep questions. Did God set up the nation of Israel as a testiment of Himself, or did Divinity merely use that system of religion to express itself to the Jewish people? Part of me keeps leaning more and more towards the belief that Divinity adopts whatever face we humans put on it. But within boundaries though.

I know the Divine quite intimately as the Christian God. But is that only because I was raised Christian? What if I was raised in a different religion, would I know the same God but by a different name?

At any rate, my knowlage of spiritual matters is mostly within the Christian framework and terminology. That, IMO, makes me a Christian. I can't help it, everything I learned was taught to me in a Christian setting. I'm now having to go elswhere to continue my growth, and there's been a lot of learning of how others define some of the same things I've experienced. It's all very fun and enjoyable.

Jesus is another issue altogether. Without him it's hard to have Christ ianity. I guess it's just a matter of identity though. My whole culture and spiritual path (up untill recently) have both been "Christian", so I guess I shouldn't let a little thing like not believing in Jesus affect my identity as being a Christian.

[Morr]

in my opinion, Divinity can be found everywhere, within everything and everyone.

it shouldnt be defined by a book or two.

[Faeawyn]

Jesus didn't like non-Jewish people?? :sniffsnif:

[Morr]

Jesus didn't like non-Jewish people?? :sniffsnif:


He was your usual Jewish elitist :lol:
its not that he didnt like em.. he was just all like "the jews need to hear the word of God first... yada yada yada"... but its true.. at first he didnt want to heal that gentile lady's woman... untill she begged him...

i forget which gospel wrote about it...

[Morr]

ignore this.. my computer is wierd...

[equinox2]

Morr-

I think you are referring to Mt 15:22-28. :idea: Here is that story:


22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

(note that I added the underline to show the relevant part)

Hmmm…. What to make of it? Bread seems to mean “God's favor”, and children probably means “Jews”, while “dogs” seems to mean “gentiles”. One could either emphasize the fact that Jesus didn’t want to help a non-Jew, or one could emphasize that Jesus eventually did help a non-Jew.

To guess whether or not this probably actually happened, use the standard 3 criteria:

1. Is this story told in multiple places?
A. No. It is in Mark and Matthew. Since Matthew copied from Mark, this is one source, so it doesn’t get extra points for being multiply attested.

2. Is the story possible in light of the culture and time it is supposed to occur (contexturally credible).
A. Yes, there was plenty of Jewish concern to see non-Jews differently.

3. Is it a story that was likely to have been made up by early Christians, like the day of Jesus’ death in John, the birth in Bethlehem, or the virgin birth?
A. Perhaps. There were “Jewish only” Christians, such as the Ebionites, the Theodotans and those mentioned by Paul in Galatians. They would have wanted to portray Jesus this way. Plus we know that the Ebionites used the gospel of Matthew, where the story is found. On the other hand, Paul’s main point was to bring Christianity to the Gentiles, so the Roman Church and groups like the Marcionite Christians would certainly not have put this in.

Maybe one of them added verses 27 & 28, thus changing it from a clearly anti-gentile story to one more ambiguous? It is interesting to notice that "Luke" who wrote his gospel to portray Jesus as coming for the Gentiles, cuts this story out. He didn't copy it into his gospel even though we know he copied from Mark, which has the story. So it appears that Luke was trying to hide a story about Jesus that isn't friendly to non-Jews. That at least argues in favor of the story going back to Jesus.

So, on balance, looking at these three criteria and the story (which Matthew changed a bit when he copied it from Mark – just compare the accounts). I’m going to guess it is around 70% likely that Jesus really did say something like this. Just my very shaky guess – we really don’t have much information here because Jesus was in a Jewish area, and pretty much just talked with Jews. I know a lot of people prefer certainty, but oh well. Take care-

[Morr]

yup!
that was it :)
thanks!

[Faeawyn]

Well, I'm bummed :sadman:

[Morr]

Well, I'm bummed :sadman:

:hugz:
i still love you!!!

[Faeawyn]

Well...thank goodness for that....cuz it's pretty DAMN CLEAR THAT JESUS DIDN'T :bastard:

I feel better now :lol:

[Morr]

you have to understand though, that this was the way of thinking amongst the Jewish Community in First Century Judea... hell.. amongst the orthodox & conservative jewish dogmatic thought TODAY - gentiles will always be "below" Jews...
it is a disguisting way to view people - but thats the way it is.

its nothing personal.

[mara]

We were taught that while the normal Jewish people viewed gentiles as being below them, Jesus didn't. He used this situation as a lesson in having faith.

[The Oracle Of Delphi]

Mixing Christianity with Paganism? The idea actually isn't to foreign to me, infact i knew quite a few Mormons when I was in the army who practiced witchcraft and the mormon denomination itself actually encourages tem to explore and learn about other religions. Also down here in miami there's quite a few "Santero's" or practioners of Santeria if you prefer. Santeria is the mixing of Catholicism and african religious beliefs or some may call it voodoo, the idea of Santeria doesn't appeal to me much because it involves a great deal of animal sacrifice mostly chickens. hmm as for adapting the calling of the elements, I once did one for a friend of mine that assigned the 4 elements to leviathan, lucifer, baal, and satan,...then again my friend was a satanist so I'm guessing that may be out of the question. Well aine of the fae i say good for you for exploring your spiritual beliefs
see you around the forums,
Oracle

[equinox2]

Mara wrote:

We were taught that while the normal Jewish people viewed gentiles as being below them, Jesus didn't. He used this situation as a lesson in having faith.

Hi Mara-

Hmm, as a lesson to promote “having faith”…. Well, Mt copied and changed Mark’s account of this, so if we care what actually happened, we can ignore Mt and look just at Mark.

Mark never mentions faith in his story (Mk 7). Remember that the little “story titles” were added in modern times (like in the 19th and 20th centuries, so they only reflect what modern Christians wanted to say the stories were about). You might notice that those little story titles aren’t even in the king james version from the 16th century.

Mark’s story is:

a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an evil[8] spirit came and fell at his feet. 26The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
28"Yes, Lord," she replied, "but even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."
29Then he told her, "For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter."
30She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

:hmmmmm: So, what did Jesus mean by this? He taught that God’s favor is for the Jews, and he called the gentiles “dogs”. The woman seems to be saying that even lowly gentiles can get some of God’s favor by accident from the scraps. Then Jesus says that he likes her REPLY, and that the demon is gone.

Regardless of whether Jesus cast out the demon or just knew it was gone, the question becomes “why did Jesus like the woman’s reply?” Was it because she joined Jesus in calling the gentiles “dogs”? Was it because she acknowledged that God’s favor was primarily for Jews & not gentiles? It’s hard to say which of these is true, but faith doesn’t appear to have anything to do with this story – which is probably why the word “faith” isn’t in the story until Matthew puts it in later.

I can see why modern Christians would pretend that this is a story about having faith – after all, having faith serves their interests. However, if we are trying to see what Jesus probably really said and did, then we will want to try to figure out what actually happened, not what modern Christians would like to have happened.

It doesn’t appear that Jesus was teaching about faith here. On the other hand, if we are going to make up parts of the story (like Matthew did), then why not just make up a completely different story that says whatever we want? We can even call one person in it “Jesus” if we like. :fpraise: :halohead:
Take care-

[mara]

Equinox-
It's really funny..even though I haven't been a Christian for 4 years I still find myself trying ( I'm not very good at it) defending what I learned as a baptist/pentacostal. I think that this is a very interesting subject and someday hope to study the bible with a more open mind. Thanks for giving me another way to look at scripture.

[Brinclhof]

Do any of you make offerings to either Jesus, God or the Holy spirit or to all three? If so what do usually use for offerings?

Second, since I have started down my Christo-pagan path I have not been going to church very regularly. I haven't had communion for a while and was wondering if anyone has done a private communion service or is that something you think has to be done in church?

:flowers: :bumpsmili

[Morr]

Do any of you make offerings to either Jesus, God or the Holy spirit or to all three? If so what do usually use for offerings?

Second, since I have started down my Christo-pagan path I have not been going to church very regularly. I haven't had communion for a while and was wondering if anyone has done a private communion service or is that something you think has to be done in church?

:flowers: :bumpsmili

Ummm, in general I have a white candle burning during the evening (when I'm in my room most of the time) on my altar.. Kind like a little thing to let them know I'm thinking of them. I've always done this actually. Its not really directed towards anyone specific (God, Jesus, Mary, etc).. But Its directed towards Divine.

As for communion correct me if im wrong - isnt that the Eucharist rite? The one where you get that bread & wine from the priest? If it is this, then how can you do it at home since the priest supposedly gets his "powers" to turn the bread & wine into Jesus' "body & blood" through the fact that he has become a priest, etc... Kinda like the fact that they can bless water.. (Gotta love the Catholic Church). I personally find this specific rite, kinda out there... But hey - if its your cup of tea, by all means - drink it!

[Aine of the Fae]

Ummm, in general I have a white candle burning during the evening (when I'm in my room most of the time) on my altar.. Kind like a little thing to let them know I'm thinking of them. I've always done this actually. Its not really directed towards anyone specific (God, Jesus, Mary, etc).. But Its directed towards Divine.

As for communion correct me if im wrong - isnt that the Eucharist rite? The one where you get that bread & wine from the priest? If it is this, then how can you do it at home since the priest supposedly gets his "powers" to turn the bread & wine into Jesus' "body & blood" through the fact that he has become a priest, etc... Kinda like the fact that they can bless water.. (Gotta love the Catholic Church). I personally find this specific rite, kinda out there... But hey - if its your cup of tea, by all means - drink it!

The Eucharist is Catholic, Protestant churches believe in the communion as a symbolic thing, not literally turning the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. Protestant churches are much more symbolic that Catholic churches, where the baptism "literally" cleanses your sin, the Eucharist "literally" becomes the body and blood....

I have done a symbolic communion at home recently, because the church that I had been attending hadn't done communion in over six months (which really, really bothers me and is one of the reasons I left...) I'm now attending a United Methodist church, more structured than the Pentecostal, but much more open minded as well. (The Pastor recently recommended I read the Celestine Prophecies!!!! Already have, years ago... and I loved it!!) They have communion one Sunday a month, and it is entirely symbolic.

[Faeawyn]

I feel that I connect/commune with God every night thru prayer. So I guess I don't feel the need for a ritual communion. But then I was raised Baptist...and we didn't have a communion...so perhaps I'm not clear on what it's for :bigredblu

[Ron]

Ummm, may I make a statement? I'm now a believer in Jesus... just so that people know...

[Morr]

Ummm, may I make a statement? I'm now a believer in Jesus... just so that people know...


were you not a believer in him before?
what brought upon this change..?

[Isildae]

I was just thinking about the name, Jesus, and how it's been Anglicized from Yeshua. I was wondering what affect that has on Christianity. Names are powerful, and by using Jesus instead of the proper Yeshua, I wonder if that changes anything in the worship. Opinions please?

It probably doesn't make a difference, but I think its nicer to call him by his proper name "Yeshua' its more cultural, and for me atleast, Jesus has almost become a dirty word for all some people associate it with. But no one I know calls Jesus, Yeshua, and I mean come on, its such a beautiful name. Jesus can sound I don't know "harsh" when you say it, but Yeshua sounds so smooth, and soft, and also rather magickal.

I did a meditation to Jesus once, only I called him yeshua instead, and it had a very different feel to it. I don't know if that means anything relevant. :fpeek:

[Aine of the Fae]

It probably doesn't make a difference, but I think its nicer to call him by his proper name "Yeshua' its more cultural, and for me atleast, Jesus has almost become a dirty word for all some people associate it with. But no one I know calls Jesus, Yeshua, and I mean come on, its such a beautiful name. Jesus can sound I don't know "harsh" when you say it, but Yeshua sounds so smooth, and soft, and also rather magickal.

I did a meditation to Jesus once, only I called him yeshua instead, and it had a very different feel to it. I don't know if that means anything relevant. :fpeek:

Think of it this way:

My name is Gwynne. No matter what language, no matter what culture, my personal name is Gwynne. Osama bin Ladan (sp?) is Osama, no matter what culture, that's his personal name. We don't all him Sam or anything else, it's Osama. Personal names, at least to me, transcend language.

[Ron]

were you not a believer in him before?
what brought upon this change..?
In my earlier years I was a non-thesist, why because when I went to church I felt awful inside. Every Sunday night (after church) I would have awful dreams. At school I found myself surronded by bible pushers, "are you sure you're not lieing? do you swear it on the bible?".... so I just said the whole thing was a piece of poo (which it ain't)... then I became a polythesist and I began drawing circles WITHOUT any prior knowledge of witchcraft or witches... I had three deities the Mother who ruled in the dark and silver, who was the great one and her two sons; Corellon, who aided in creation; Deathy who brought death. I drew my rite in a tirangle with a circle surrounding... at the head of the circle was invoked the Mother, at the bottom left Correllon, at the bottom-right Deathy. Later I added a Father (who ruled in the light and gold) with two daughters, the first daughter was Cerrudywn tho I knew her as Kerry [of Knowledge], and the second Morgaine [of War]. All of this... then one day my father walked in on my practise and I had to explain my own created religion... then he took me to Jasper, Alberta (2500km from here!!) and I was initiated into my present tradition of old. My father is a Protestant Christian of the United Chruch, he never goes, he was raised in the same religion as I, but he never really looked into it. My mother was the daugther of a daughter of a Hindu, and my mother was the daughter of a muslim turned anglican and the same tradition as my father. My mother is duotheisitic (Lady and Lord) through her Yoga Master and practises of Ioveda (sp?), Satsan Yoga and Hatha -- soon to be Reiki as well I am teaching her lol... I'm a Reiki "Master" of the 7th generation (since yesterday!!) for those that are obsessed with Reiki lineage.... lol... my mother's father levitated and preformed card tricks like you wouldn't believe. He was a Taaren ("Prince") of my tradition but never exercised his rights as such. On his deathbed he told my mom and her family of the Recoming of Christ, who he will be, what he will look like, what he will say, and he identified his birthdate... believe it or not. He died in April 1996, after raising my mom's entire family anglican, he was a school teacher and principal in Guyana, South America. His death came after that of my paternal grandmother who was killed by the rising of the sun... she apparently stood and watch it rise every morning... one morning she, aged 97, smashed the paddlock on the window with her hands and opened it... as the sun rose she died.

I am a believer in Jesus, since only recently, because of my grandfather... when I heard that he had foretold my birth and foretold the recoming of Jesus... there was no way to deny it. I began reading the bible in sections and I found that the Lord Jesus taught good... I later read parts of the Quaran and found that it taught respect for all God's creations... I was soo fascinated because this tied in directly with the teachings of my tradition. Then the Teryn Fawr Vychan ap Aodh'r Caredig Fawr (like the Pope of my tradition -- I guess), my uncle, died. His will included a final order, that the people of my tradition REFORM to the old way that we used to practise 200 years ago. 200 years ago a very quanit person quote a book which we now refer to as the doomsday book, it used to be called the "Golden Book", it was the only book out of all the some 58.000+ stored on the Isle of Anglesey in Wales, that spoke against Jesus... condemning Jesus as a greedy God incarnate, who wanted to be worshiped as the only. The heir to the crown and the Breniniau (like Archbishiops) found that this book was not right. Our old ways and teachings are back, and new laws are in place to prevent such a stupidity from happening ever again... ie. none of the Royals may release a religious book without first the approval of the Royal Council ... which operates just as a socalist government.... it is very much entwined with the Teryn Fawr and the longest term is 10 cycles round the Sun (years)... then you get advisory to the council positions, but you don't get to vote (why am I explaining this?)...

Really I'm a believer because my mother's father has foreseeen the recoming.

[Faeawyn]

May I ask when he fortold it to be?

[dragenfly]

Do any of you make offerings to either Jesus, God or the Holy spirit or to all three? If so what do usually use for offerings?

Second, since I have started down my Christo-pagan path I have not been going to church very regularly. I haven't had communion for a while and was wondering if anyone has done a private communion service or is that something you think has to be done in church?

:flowers: :bumpsmili

Well I offer my soul God everynight I dont pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit. I offer my thanks, my devotion, and my forgiveness of others. I help those who need it when I can and I try to treat other kindly those are my offerings.

Communion should only be taken by those who are worthy. What I mean by that is that communion is the taking and drinking of the blood and flesh of Christ. It is said that you if you take communion and you have walked the path of GOD you can be sticken with illness and even death. It may be an old beliefe but he is my allmighty GOD so I temp him ya know. Communion is generally taken in churched because the bread and the wine "grape juice" are blessed for the communion but I dont see why you couldnt taken alone if you learn the blessing ritual or have your own. Its all in the meaning and the intent.

Just my oppinion by the way you will eventually gather your own oppinions and paths. Blessed Be 3x3x3 :chattin:

[Aine of the Fae]

The idea that you can only take communion if you are worthy is Catholic in origin. In reality, according to Biblical teaching, no one is worthy until they accept Christ, and then they need do nothing more to become "more" worthy.

[Ron]

May I ask when he fortold it to be?
This was foreseen several times between 1970 and 1991, when grandpa died... The new Jesus was born between 1985 and 1992. Nearer to 2021 he shall surface... that's all I can say... it's no more than the churches that believe in his recoming for 2021 will say.... infact that's all I know, the rest is in my mommy's will.

[Tobias]

This was foreseen several times between 1970 and 1991, when grandpa died... This person is to have been born 1985 years after Jesus' death... if we account for the 7 year drift that makes it 1992.

1985 yrs after Jesus' death? The calander is based off of his birthday, not the year he died. You'll need to add 33 years to the equation.

[Morr]

Charles.. I didnt really understand that whole big long explination and how is it that your grandfather foresaw the recoming of Jesus, etc..
but.. ok..

I'll brace myself in 2021

(surely I am going to hell if this is true, but it should be an interesting ride).

[Morr]

1985 yrs after Jesus' death? The calander is based off of his birthday, not the year he died. You'll need to add 33 years to the equation.


the christian calander is off by 4 years... meaning we technically should be around year 2000 now (since the birth of Christ)....

Christ died in 33ad....

1985
+33
______
2018

am i even doing this right?
(girl with dyscalculia here)

[Pol]

So that would make him surface when he's..three?

My cousin saw Christ at the foot of his bed once, and he told him when the rapture would be.

I don't buy it, and he's my own cousin. Pretty much because none of it is even based on the ideas of the Bible, and even then, if it was, the Bible says no one shall know.

[equinox2]

Charles wrote:

This was foreseen several times between 1970 and 1991, when grandpa died... This person is to have been born 1985 years after Jesus' death... if we account for the 7 year drift that makes it 1992. Nearer to 2021 he shall surface... that's all I can say... it's no more than the churches that believe in his recoming for 2021 will say.... infact that's all I know, the rest is in my mommy's will.

Ok, first of all, don’t forget that Jesus himself is supposed (according to Mark) to have said it would be within a few decades of when Jesus was around: Mk 13:30


I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

(Apologists will argue that Jesus means “race”, but that doesn’t agree with either the term used nor with Jesus’ clearly apocalyptic teachings.)

And a few decades after Jesus, Paul believed wrote that he would be alive when Jesus returned:

2Thes 4:

According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

And other Christians have been predicting the return of Jesus continually since then.

Writings we have show that in just about every generation for the past 1900 years, some Christians were predicting the end to come before they had died.

Jaochim of Fiore predicted it in the 12th century, and thousands believed him. The “great disappointment” of 1843 had tens of thousands of followers. Hal Lindsay wrote the book “the late great planet earth” in the 70’s and tens of thousands believed him. Thousands also believed the person who wrote the booklet titled “88 reasons the world will end in 1988” (all based on the bible).


The only safe prediction to make is that there will be Christians expecting the return of Jesus as long as there are Christians. Whether you expect the end in 2021 or not, I hope you live each day for itself, focusing on this life, not on some hypothetical event.

Oh yeah:

Pol wrote:

My cousin saw Christ at the foot of his bed once, and he told him when the rapture would be.
And I saw a giant turkey in my tent one night camping (I did!). I’m sure I hallucinated it, as any human can do when waking up. It’s actually a pretty common occurrence.

[Brinclhof]

So that would make him surface when he's..three?



The way I understand it from Revalations (and granted I don't understand revalations very well) christ will come directly from heaven in his full grown form and will not be reborn. so the prediction about him being born has problems.

the lord works in mysterious ways so I feel that we will not know when it is going to happen. You hear some one predict a date and most likely this is not when it will be.

just my opinion.

[Aine of the Fae]

The way I understand it from Revalations (and granted I don't understand revalations very well) christ will come directly from heaven in his full grown form and will not be reborn. so the prediction about him being born has problems.

the lord works in mysterious ways so I feel that we will not know when it is going to happen. You hear some one predict a date and most likely this is not when it will be.

just my opinion.

Also, the one that would be born is the anti-Christ. Not someone I'd want to associate with.

[Ron]

Can I just say that there is no "Christian" calendar... the freakishly old one you people (common people, unlike me, I'm wierd lol :p) use is called the Gegorian calendar it's Greek, I thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.


Ok, first of all, don’t forget that Jesus himself is supposed (according to Mark) to have said it would be within a few decades of when Jesus was around: Mk 13:30 What's to say he didn't? What's to say that he hasn't appeared several times in the last 2000 years??

Morr... I don't believe in hell... I don't believe in "satan'" ... lol... I believe that people spend their time in the afterlife in "hell" when they create their own hell on earth ie. by not believing in "god" in any of the three forms: Archdeity, the Great Spirt (in us all), and deity... to ignore all three forms is to live in hell, IMO and in that of the other followers of my tradition.

[Ron]

oh and too all you gobl (welsh for people) that have been bickering about the dates my grandaddy gave for the recoming... the surfacing is set for 2021, but the man's birth occurs between 1985 and 1993 during specific astal times, which I have not been given... if I ever find out I will tell you, unless this thread gets pushed to the 2nd page lol

[Aine of the Fae]

The Gregorian calendar is NOT Greek, it is Christian, based on the supposed year of Yeshua's birth.

[Ron]

Well duh, "Aine of the Fae", but the system of months which is by definition a calendar is Greek and Roman, as is the 7 day week, which is in addition Sematic....

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, first, I don't like being "duhed" nor do you need to put my name in quotes as if you think it's a joke. Secondly the spelling is Semitic not Sematic....

Now let's get technical here...

12 months dates to Egyptian times when the year was divided into 12 months of 30 days with 5 days added to the end. This caused a drift in the seasons, but it eventually worked itself out every 1490 years. A lot of time to wait for your year to line up again...

The division of hours into minutes is Mesopotamian, the division into 7 day weeks is ancient Near Eastern

The Julian calendar, from the Romans, consisted of 10 months and had bunches of errors. Eventually spring began in early March and this screwed with the dating for Easter. So along came the Gregorian calendar, which we use today, started by Christians, continued by Christians, to keep Christian holidays from slipping all over the calendar.

[Ron]

Also, the one that would be born is the anti-Christ. Not someone I'd want to associate with. lol no... my grandfather definately said that the one who would be born is "no foe of the Lord"... :boing:

:halohead: :halohead: :halohead:

[Phi]

Equinox said[Ok, first of all, don’t forget that Jesus himself is supposed (according to Mark) to have said it would be within a few decades of when Jesus was around: Mk 13:30]

Quote:
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

When does a generation pass away(die)? When the last member of said generation dies? Who of that generation has not passed away(died)still? Why Jeshua of course, according to the religion of the Christian.

[Aine of the Fae]

Equinox said[Ok, first of all, don’t forget that Jesus himself is supposed (according to Mark) to have said it would be within a few decades of when Jesus was around: Mk 13:30]

Quote:
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

When does a generation pass away(die)? When the last member of said generation dies? Who of that generation has not passed away(died)still? Why Jeshua of course, according to the religion of the Christian.

By that reasoning, it will NEVER happen as Yeshua as the Christ is eternal and immortal!

[Phi]

I suppose...

[Morr]

lol no... my grandfather definately said that the one who would be born is "no foe of the Lord"... :boing:

:halohead: :halohead: :halohead:

sorry,
i still dont see it.
many others have prophciesed the coming of jesus, etc..

what makes your grandfather any different?
and its already been proven that there are many inaccuracies to the story of Jesus... how does that work out with his coming back?

[Tobias]

So... mabey Christ will come back, mabey he won't.

My question is... What has believing that he will done for anybody? Has it motivated them to do good deeds by taking their life one day at a time instead of planning it all out?

I wonder if there is any benefit at all to believing that "The End is Near". Christians for years have been living their lives like there's no tommorow, believing that Jesus wants us to live "expecting."

Can anyone see any spiritual benefit to that kind of lifestyle? I sure feel burned by it. I've been taught this rapture stuff since I was a child, and nothing's happened yet. Inside a part of me still can't believe that life continues on. Needless to say, I haven't done much to prepare for the future.

[Phi]

Ah, Tobias. Maybe the best thing is to love life and live it with honor and with joy.

I think this is one of the most misinterpreted messages ever. The point is not to live in fear of the end of the world, but to live your life every day such that you would not be ashamed to meet your creator/creatrix. That's a life of honor and of joy.

Try reading only the words that are written in red in a red letter Bible. The only black and white words to read are those that set the scene. But first very deliberately clear your head of the interpretations of others. You may see some value there then.

There is value in every holy book ever written, I believe. But it takes some discernment, and it takes reading without preconceived ideas, in the spirit of understanding & comprehending. And in humility asking for wisdom to discern the truth.
Almost every sacred truth is written in a way that seems to be unclear, even in a riddle or a puzzle form sometimes.
Maybe it's because we are not worthy to receive wisdom we are not willing to strive for.
Maybe it's because these higher things are hard to express in the lower heavier matter of our physical world. For some it is easier understood from the songs of nature: the wind, the sound of water, the song of birds, crickets frogs. Somehow these creatures can tell sacred things in this heavy matter without losing much of the ethereal quality of it, for words are heavier than song.

I hope this helps somehow.

[Phi]

By that reasoning, it will NEVER happen as Yeshua as the Christ is eternal and immortal!
I clearly recall singing "World without end, Amen." It comes from Isaiah. What does that mean to you?

Jeshua speaks of the end of this world. Also about a new world. Not the end of Earth.

I have often wondered why people who do not believe in reincarnation worry so much about the end of this world...for them, according to their belief, it will end for them the day they die anyhow.

[charmedkisses1]

Actually I'm considering going to the local Methodist church. My grandmother is a retired Methodist minister and she goes to that church too. I KNOW the pastor of that church is fairly liberal, my grandmother had to meet with him about something and I drove her and saw some very interesting books on his shelf. Not the kind of books you'd expect to find on a Christian minister's bookshelf :)
How about non denominational? I love my church- no rules, really spiritual and very Christian.

[Morr]

So... mabey Christ will come back, mabey he won't.

My question is... What has believing that he will done for anybody? Has it motivated them to do good deeds by taking their life one day at a time instead of planning it all out?

I wonder if there is any benefit at all to believing that "The End is Near". Christians for years have been living their lives like there's no tommorow, believing that Jesus wants us to live "expecting."

Can anyone see any spiritual benefit to that kind of lifestyle? I sure feel burned by it. I've been taught this rapture stuff since I was a child, and nothing's happened yet. Inside a part of me still can't believe that life continues on. Needless to say, I haven't done much to prepare for the future.

i think you are on to something..
why wait for the end? youre alive TODAY... who knows what will happen tomorrow... live life to the fullest and do what makes you happy. Dont prepare yourself for something that may or may not come.

In Jesus' days they were expecting the coming for the Messiah at any given moment.. Thats why they had so many Jewish Cultish movements and so many claimed to be messiahs..

I believe that God put us on earth to make the most out of ourselves and be happy... Not to serve him and expect a doomed end... If God is a know it all and can do anything he/she/it damn well pleases - why need humans as servants & worshipers [to the extent of being so fanatical and expecting the end of what God gives us NOW]?

I think God's true presence is there to inspire us, teach us, guide us & challenge us... Not scare us & make us wait for things that we have no idea wether they will happen or not.. Much less bad & scary stuff...

[Brinclhof]

Ah, Tobias. Maybe the best thing is to love life and live it with honor and with joy.

I think this is one of the most misinterpreted messages ever. The point is not to live in fear of the end of the world, but to live your life every day such that you would not be ashamed to meet your creator/creatrix. That's a life of honor and of joy.

Amen. Live your life so that if the Lord comes today you are ready but don't go around waiting for it to happen.



There is value in every holy book ever written, I believe. But it takes some discernment, and it takes reading without preconceived ideas, in the spirit of understanding & comprehending. And in humility asking for wisdom to discern the truth.
Almost every sacred truth is written in a way that seems to be unclear, even in a riddle or a puzzle form sometimes.
Maybe it's because we are not worthy to receive wisdom we are not willing to strive for.
Maybe it's because these higher things are hard to express in the lower heavier matter of our physical world. For some it is easier understood from the songs of nature: the wind, the sound of water, the song of birds, crickets frogs. Somehow these creatures can tell sacred things in this heavy matter without losing much of the ethereal quality of it, for words are heavier than song.


Again Amen. That was absolutely lovely.
:hahugh:

[equinox2]

Phi wrote:


Who of that generation has not passed away(died)still? Why Jeshua of course, according to the religion of the Christian.

Well, sort of. One of the main points of Christianity is that Y’eshua DID really die, the was resurrected from the dead. He’s just on his second life – kinda like a cat. Some Gnostics believed that Jesus never died, and that’s partly why some of the books in our New Testament go on and on saying that Jesus really did die, (to oppose the Gnostics).

Morr wrote:

why wait for the end? youre alive TODAY... who knows what will happen tomorrow... live life to the fullest and do what makes you happy. Dont prepare yourself for something that may or may not come.

I completely agree, that’s the best way to live your life. By focusing on THIS life, THIS world and THIS moment, we can have happy, loving lives. It is, of course completely the opposite of what Jesus taught and the complete opposite of what Paul taught, and completely opposite what most of the rest of the New Testament says. A good summary of this is in 1John2:15:


Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Can the Christian to just toss out the New Testament and still be Christian? I suppose if someone wants to live for today and still call themselves a Christian they can call themselves whatever they want – it just makes me wonder why they cling to that name. Of course, other Christianities didn’t revere the New Testament – but they did mostly go by what they thought Jesus taught – which was definitely a focus on the world to come, not on this world.

I see this as one of the main differences (and difficult things to reconcile) between Christianity and Paganism. Paganism is Earth-centered. :farmerjoe It is focused on this world and on our human lifespan. Because Christianity is by definition focused on Christ, and because one of the main themes of Jesus' apparent teachings was a focus on the coming kingdom of God, they seem a bit at odds on that point.

[Brinclhof]

I see this as one of the main differences (and difficult things to reconcile) between Christianity and Paganism. Paganism is Earth-centered. :farmerjoe It is focused on this world and on our human lifespan. Because Christianity is by definition focused on Christ, and because one of the main themes of Jesus' apparent teachings was a focus on the coming kingdom of God, they seem a bit at odds on that point.

I feel that Christ said the coming Kingdom of God is going to happen no matter what, so here are some guidelines on how to live so that when It comes you are ready. That way if the kingdom of God comes within your lifespan you will be ready.

Paul and the apostles are the ones who interpreted that to mean that the Kingdom of God was coming within their lifespan.

I also think it is possible to revere the earth as a magnificent creation of God and therefore it is a part of God. By worshiping the earth and appreciating the power it holds you are just drawing closer to God on a more physical (the beauty of a waterfall, a sunrise, the full moon) and a metaphysical (the power of crystals, stones, plants, astral forms) level. Therefore understanding nature and the worship of it is the worship of God.

[Morr]

I feel that Christ said the coming Kingdom of God is going to happen no matter what, so here are some guidelines on how to live so that when It comes you are ready. That way if the kingdom of God comes within your lifespan you will be ready.

Paul and the apostles are the ones who interpreted that to mean that the Kingdom of God was coming within their lifespan.

I also think it is possible to revere the earth as a magnificent creation of God and therefore it is a part of God. By worshiping the earth and appreciating the power it holds you are just drawing closer to God on a more physical (the beauty of a waterfall, a sunrise, the full moon) and a metaphysical (the power of crystals, stones, plants, astral forms) level. Therefore understanding nature and the worship of it is the worship of God.

i think you are on to something..
people seem to forget that this world - the earth, nature, animals, the planets & universe - are also a creation of God.. So if you dont respect these creations - you dont respect God & his/her work.

[equinox2]

Brinclhof wrote:

Paul and the apostles are the ones who interpreted that to mean that the Kingdom of God was coming within their lifespan.

As I pointed out before, Jesus himself is recorded as predicting it within a lifespan back around 28 CE. Its in Mk 13:30 (quoted in post #113). More importantly, the fact that he preached that the end of the world was coming really really soon is one of our best demonstrated ideas about Jesus, repeated over and over throughout the gospels (except for John, which is a later legend). It is described by Paul, by Q, by Mark (which Mt & Lk) copied), by Josephus, and it completely fits what other similar Jewish preachers (like john the baptist) were saying at the same time. Plus, Jesus started his ministry by associating with John the Baptist, who's entire message is that the end is coming really soon. Jesus could have gone to anyone, but he chose an apocalyptacist. After Jesus, it is clear from Acts and from Paul that the early Christians were Apocalyptic (Paul didn't even thing people should get married because the end was coming so soon - why plan for a wedding if the world will end next week?) So Jesus starts out apocalyptically, then teaches apcalyptacism, then afterwards his followers are apocalyptic. It seems difficult to argue that Jesus wasn't apocalyptic based on what evidence we have.

We can even see evidence in John and in 2Thes. that later Christians were a bit embarrassed by the fact that the end hadn’t come yet. The most solid ideas we can have about Jesus are probably that he preached the imminent end of all things, and that he was crucified by the Romans. People who want to turn Jesus (a Jewish apocalyptic preacher in the 1st century) into a fluffy new age environmental guru make me wonder if they care more about what they want to pretend than what actually is likely to have happened.

At the same time, I think the environmental and spiritual stuff that both Brinclhof & Morr mentioned are good and important things. I just don’t think that we should pretend Jesus didn’t focus on the imminent kingdom of god. It makes us look silly.

It’s strange that so many people (many Pagans included) seem to think that for their ideas to be legitimate, they have to figure out a way to claim that they are Jesus’ ideas. The good news for them is that their ideas can be legitimate just because they are good ideas. There is no need to pretend that Jesus taught them – your own ideas can be legitimate just because they are good ideas.

[Phi]

I believe that Jeshua prophesied the end of the Jewish world within a lifetime, and indeed within 70 years, their world ended, they were dispersed, their nation kingdoms ceased.

I am not a fluffy new-ager, yet I do study his wisdoms.

In so far as your statement "why do they call themselves Christians?" I don't.

Jeshua said "Seek," and so I do. I am a seeker.

Earlier, Equinox2, you said "the Gnostics say he did not die," as if to say there is no truth in the Gnostic wisdoms, as if there is no such thing as "Gnostic Christian." I say that depends solely upon one's definition of "Christian." That word has been taken over by so many who do not follow the wisdom of Jeshua, but rather follow the word of vain men that seemed to follow Jeshua, and do not seek their own comprehensions. By their fruits we know them, as Jeshua said we would.

I also study the wisdoms of earlier and other wise persons. And continue my seeking.
I have no need to prove my way to anyone. But I freely state that it began with a command of Jeshua.

[equinox2]

Phi wrote:

I believe that Jeshua prophesied the end of the Jewish world within a lifetime, and indeed within 70 years, their world ended, they were dispersed, their nation kingdoms ceased.

I think that’s kinda the opposite of what he appears to have taught. He appears to have expected the Jewish God to arrive soon to abolish the Roman rule and establish a Jewish Kingdom on earth that would last forever.

Regardless of our slight historical disagreement, your path sounds cool. Y’eshua did indeed say a lot of good and wise things. Plus, being a seeker is great – it helps protect against dogmatism.


Phi Wrote:

Earlier, Equinox2, you said "the Gnostics say he did not die," as if to say there is no truth in the Gnostic wisdoms, as if there is no such thing as "Gnostic Christian." I say that depends solely upon one's definition of "Christian." That word has been taken over by so many ...

Oh, I completely agree with you - I was not implying that Gnostic Christians were wrong or that they aren't as "Christian". Though most Christians disagree with me, I think that Gnostic Christians are "Christians" just as much as other Christians. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear about that and respectful towards Gnostic Christians.

[AterCorax]

Interesting and in my opinion correct view of why Christian Wicca and witchcraft is just, well, wrong....

http://www.wiccan-refuge.com/christianwiccan.html

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people doing their own thing, but what's the logic used?

-Ater

[Pol]

One of the most common e-mails I get is the one that asks the eternal question: "Can I be a Wiccan and a Christian at the same time?" I don't know why this question is so popular, but it is. The first thing that goes through my mind after reading one of these e-mails is something like, "What in the bloody hell are you thinking? Do you know ANYTHING about the Bible?!" I then proceed to run around in circles while pulling out my hair before finally running into a wall and falling over. In short? The answer is a resounding, "NO, DUMBASS!" However, I suppose a bit more tact should be employed here, so I'll go into a bit more detail. One e-mail I got a long time ago went a little something like this:

Well, given his highly intelligent attitude, I'm totally ready to listen to what he said and accept that he's well versed in what he's saying and a very intelligent person.

Christianity is not about knowing anything about the bible. I am very, very well versed in the bible as I lived my life as a good old christian boy. I know it like the back of my hand, and yet I am a Christian pagan - two words which negate the other in their own way (as pagan now means non-christian).
The reason many people are comfortable being Christian Pagans, Christian Wiccans, Christian Witches, you name it, is because of many reasons, all of them very personal. For me, myself, and I, it's because I realised that the bible - while it contains kernels of the original truth, is very far from its mark. I've realised that nothing about witchcraft or paganism or anything like that goes against the 3 commandments given to Christians: Love the Lord your God with all of your heard, soul, and mind - and your neighbour as yourself.
It's just that simple. Christianity is no longer about morals or not having other gods - it's about God and loving him and his Son, admitting Yeshua as the Messiah, and living life with the Spirit giving you strength.

[Pol]

As for the whole "It's-a happening!" stuff..
I really just don't see it. It doesn't fit into any of the Christian mythos, it doesn't fit into revelations or anything like that. It just definitely is not Christian, no offense to your grandfather's prophecy. It's not in line with the pre-existing Christian prophecies and concepts, and as such is not Christian. If it was, it would fit in.

But really, what I say, is what does it matter? "The End" wasn't that big of a deal to early Christians, so why should it be to us now?

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you Pol, you said that in a much more calm manner than I could have.

People seem to think "Christian" means "church -follower" and that if you're Christian you believe everything in the Bible and everything the church tells you too. WRONG. To me, and to many others, being a Christian simply means following Christ. The way I follow Christ may be different from the way you do, and that's ok.

[Pol]

Thank you :)

I just want to say a bit more about that website:
He takes everything at face value, makes quotations and words mean only one thing, and considers the question "Can I be a Christian Wiccan" to mean "can I completely follow both paths in hardcore mode and completely believe everything each one teaches."

Therefor, for all of the Christian+ here that I have met so far, that does not stand, as none of us think we must be completely both of whatever we are.

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you :)

I just want to say a bit more about that website:
He takes everything at face value, makes quotations and words mean only one thing, and considers the question "Can I be a Christian Wiccan" to mean "can I completely follow both paths in hardcore mode and completely believe everything each one teaches."

Therefor, for all of the Christian+ here that I have met so far, that does not stand, as none of us think we must be completely both of whatever we are.

I'd agree that you can't be hardcore both. For instance claiming to be a Pentacostal pastor AND a Gardnerian High Priestes would have me either laughing hysterically or running in fear from your insanity.

However, I do not believe in EVERYTHING that is taught in churches, nor do I fully embrace Pagan paths, however I find value in both and most strongly identify with Yeshua as MY PERSONAL SAVIOR. That doesn't mean I think he has to be everyone's savior, just that the path he shows is the best for me. :D And that doesn't mean I must abandon everything I've learned in the 13 years I walked as a Pagan either. To do so would be to deny what has made me the person I am today.

[AterCorax]

Well, I'm about to disagree with both of you. :bigblue: (Note: I have a 'harsh' tone when I'm writing, so don't think it's anything personal.)

Now, people like you might think that they can 'ignore' whatever doesn't fit their views about Christianity and the bible or the pagan path, but that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Look, I don't really care if you decide to follow both pagan and Christian paths, but you have to realize that you're spitting in the face of both paths as you do so. Now, would I have a problem with it if you didn't call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever'? No. My main problem stems from the fact that you do call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever.'

I think that it shows no respect for the Christian or pagan paths when you do so. It shows that you don't really care what their teachings are, but only what you agree with them in. Now, as I have said before, I don't care a bit and actually encourage that people find their own way. Do whatever makes you happy. BUT, and this is a big 'but,' I do not respect when you feel the right to change both paths to your liking AND label yourself both a Chrsitian and a pagan. It's just plain annoying and doesn't show any respect to either path.

If you are one of those people who follows both paths (that is, taking from them only what fits your personal views), then why don't you try showing some respect to both of them by not labeling yourself with BOTH names, and just say you're 'eclectic' or whatever. It just annoys me when you label yourself a "Christian Pagan" when you obviously aren't either.

-Ater

[Morr]

Well, I'm about to disagree with both of you. :bigblue: (Note: I have a 'harsh' tone when I'm writing, so don't think it's anything personal.)

Now, people like you might think that they can 'ignore' whatever doesn't fit their views about Christianity and the bible or the pagan path, but that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Look, I don't really care if you decide to follow both pagan and Christian paths, but you have to realize that you're spitting in the face of both paths as you do so. Now, would I have a problem with it if you didn't call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever'? No. My main problem stems from the fact that you do call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever.'

I think that it shows no respect for the Christian or pagan paths when you do so. It shows that you don't really care what their teachings are, but only what you agree with them in. Now, as I have said before, I don't care a bit and actually encourage that people find their own way. Do whatever makes you happy. BUT, and this is a big 'but,' I do not respect when you feel the right to change both paths to your liking AND label yourself both a Chrsitian and a pagan. It's just plain annoying and doesn't show any respect to either path.

If you are one of those people who follows both paths (that is, taking from them only what fits your personal views), then why don't you try showing some respect to both of them by not labeling yourself with BOTH names, and just say you're 'eclectic' or whatever. It just annoys me when you label yourself a "Christian Pagan" when you obviously aren't either.

-Ater

i think that this argument can apply to a lot of religions.
I'll use my favorite though.

Christianity, has torn apart the Jewish religion and took only what it liked out of the OT -
~ Several random passages that may or may not talk about the Messiah (that "fits" the story of Jesus).
~ Psalms.
~ The Ten Comandments (or two comandments that Jesus made a big deal out of).

Yet they disregard the other Jewish laws & teachings they dont like -
~ Kosher laws.
~ Holidays.
etc.

Christianity, while not calling itself "Judaism" - has declared that its followers are The New Israel.
So how is this valid and calling oneself a Christian Witch/Pagan not?

MOREOVER -
Christianity "Baptized" Pagan Gods & Goddesses, and didnt even bother to change their names or origins. Take St. Brigid of Ireland - All they did was say that her 9 Virgins are 9 nuns, who tend to her eternal fire.
The worship of her, however, is still very Pagan - except theres a cross and a couple of nuns shoved in there.

Its the same kind of thing.

And I find this to be offensive to the Jewish religion AND the old Pagan religions.
So nobody can win here, really.
Its been done since acient times - I mean -

The Genisis Creation story is hijacked from an old Sumaritan Creation story!

So really, you cant point your fingers at anyone specific cause it goes both ways..

[Aine of the Fae]

Well, I'm about to disagree with both of you. :bigblue: (Note: I have a 'harsh' tone when I'm writing, so don't think it's anything personal.)

Now, people like you might think that they can 'ignore' whatever doesn't fit their views about Christianity and the bible or the pagan path, but that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Look, I don't really care if you decide to follow both pagan and Christian paths, but you have to realize that you're spitting in the face of both paths as you do so. Now, would I have a problem with it if you didn't call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever'? No. My main problem stems from the fact that you do call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever.'

I think that it shows no respect for the Christian or pagan paths when you do so. It shows that you don't really care what their teachings are, but only what you agree with them in. Now, as I have said before, I don't care a bit and actually encourage that people find their own way. Do whatever makes you happy. BUT, and this is a big 'but,' I do not respect when you feel the right to change both paths to your liking AND label yourself both a Chrsitian and a pagan. It's just plain annoying and doesn't show any respect to either path.

If you are one of those people who follows both paths (that is, taking from them only what fits your personal views), then why don't you try showing some respect to both of them by not labeling yourself with BOTH names, and just say you're 'eclectic' or whatever. It just annoys me when you label yourself a "Christian Pagan" when you obviously aren't either.

-Ater


Well, Ater, honestly, it annoys me when people tell me that I can't call myself whatever I want. I am NOT labeling myself a "Christian Pagan" I NEVER have. Other people do and that's their business. But I don't, so get it straight.

I have been repeatedly told on this board that "words are just words" so why does everyone seem to get so upset over my choosing two words to describe my currect path? Because words aren't just have words, words have power. Do I have to describe my practice down to the very last detail in order to get people to understand just why I have decided to call myself "Christian Witch"???

I've been over this again and again. It is the simplest way to describe my path. Otherwise I have to throw in a long tongue-twister to even get half the point across and people just look at me with a dumb look on their face.

Do not EVER accuse me of disrespecting my path, nor the sources from which I draw my path. I hold great respect for all religions and their respective traditions. I do not casually pull a tradition from a religion because it "looks good" or "sounds neat" I research, I find the origin of that tradition, I look for the reason behind the tradition, and then, if I still like it, I try to find a way to incorporate it into my practice.

Telling me that walking this path disrespects Christianity is a joke. Modern Christianity is so inextricably tied with ancient Pagan practices that an outsider would be very hard-pressed to seperate the two. That's why fundamentalist Christians hate Catholics so much!

There is a very long tradition of Christian Mystics who "think outside the box," who look at the Bible in a new way, who start their own denominations! The entire Protestant revolution was based on the idea that the Catholic church had screwed up and they needed to fix things. But the Catholic church didn't want to fix things so groups of people just started new churches.

Why is it ok for people to read the Bible and say, "Okay, I really don't think you've got this right, how about we try it this way?" but it's not okay for me to do it?

I am not simply "picking and choosing" the parts of a particular spiritual path because I "like them" or they "feel good." If I was, I certainly wouldn't have looked in the direction of Christianity!!!! I was a VERY reluctant Christian and only after ongoing study have I arrived at this path. And it is not an easy one, nor is it comfortable. I am ridiculed by Christians and Pagans alike, but the worst is from the Pagans, who with one face claim to be "open" and "tolerant" and who with another scream "you can't be..."

YES I CAN. I can be whatever I want to be. I can choose any label that I want. If a large group of people can choose a word that is intended to be derogatory to label their chosen path, then I can choose whatever words I want to label mine.

I've been in this argument before, in another thread. You can read it if you like:

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=57475

But the fact is, no matter how well I defend myself, no matter how logical or illogical my argument is, people are still going to feel the need to put me in a box.

What makes people uncomfortable about the label Christian Witch is they don't know what to expect from me. I don't fit inside their neat little molds of Christian OR Witch. I'm abnormal, and that makes people uncomfortable.

People expect Christians to wack them over the head with a Bible and expect Witches to be open and accepting of all paths. I won't do either one. I don't believe in the Bible as literal text, however I do believe it is inspired text. I'm not going to take a Bible and thump you over the head with it, I wouldn't disrespect my Bible in that way. But I will not accept all paths either. I will not accept paths that promote harm or disrespect in anyway. And before you tell me that Christianity promotes harm and disrespect, just stop and think. No it doesn't, Christianity, in its purest forms, promotes peace, tolerance and loving your enemy as you would your neighbor, and loving your neighbor as yourself. It's power-hungry idiots who turn it into something else.

If I make you uncomfortable, good, maybe you'll begin to really think about what you believe instead of reading the latest pop culture pagan icon and jumping on their every word as your own.

[Ben Trismegistus]

ADMIN MODE


2. No bashing of other religions or personal Paths is allowed in this community. Discussion of Paths is allowed and disagreement is also allowed but the act of telling someone a Path is "invalid or wrong" (for example) is not allowed.

[Brinclhof]

Well, I'm about to disagree with both of you. :bigblue: (Note: I have a 'harsh' tone when I'm writing, so don't think it's anything personal.)

Now, people like you might think that they can 'ignore' whatever doesn't fit their views about Christianity and the bible or the pagan path, but that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Look, I don't really care if you decide to follow both pagan and Christian paths, but you have to realize that you're spitting in the face of both paths as you do so. Now, would I have a problem with it if you didn't call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever'? No. My main problem stems from the fact that you do call yourself a 'Christian Wiccan/pagan/witch/whatever.'

I think that it shows no respect for the Christian or pagan paths when you do so. It shows that you don't really care what their teachings are, but only what you agree with them in. Now, as I have said before, I don't care a bit and actually encourage that people find their own way. Do whatever makes you happy. BUT, and this is a big 'but,' I do not respect when you feel the right to change both paths to your liking AND label yourself both a Chrsitian and a pagan. It's just plain annoying and doesn't show any respect to either path.

If you are one of those people who follows both paths (that is, taking from them only what fits your personal views), then why don't you try showing some respect to both of them by not labeling yourself with BOTH names, and just say you're 'eclectic' or whatever. It just annoys me when you label yourself a "Christian Pagan" when you obviously aren't either.

-Ater


Just a small point of symantics. I call myself a Christo-pagan not a christian pagan. I feel like I am no longer a full blown "traditional" Christian but I still worship Christ, Jehovah, and the Holy spirit. In order to better respect both paths I am using the term Christo-pagan, (which granted I stole from Morr's wonderful class.)

I prefer this term to saying that I am a Christian with Pagan tendancies or a Pagan that worships the christian panthenon. (I'm lazy and Christo-pagan sums it up so nicely.) :thumbsup:

[Pol]

Ater, that is not up to you to dictate. You made quite a few false statements there, as well.

First off, there are no 'pagan' teachings for one to spit in the face of. There are no set rules, no set ideas, of what is 'pagan.'
Pagan means to differen tpeople many different things, and as such it is impossible to say that anyone is 'spitting in the face' of pagan teachings.

Furthermore, your statements are altogether misplaced and do not fit into the discussion, as they are only your opinion on whether we are spitting in the face of anyone. As we are Christians, we are not spitting in our own faces. Ergo, your statements are incorrect.

We are, and personally I have been for all of my life, Christians. We cannot spit in the face of our own religion.

It is not up to you to decide what religion we 'obviously' are or are not. That is up to us. As a devout Christian, I am going to call myself a Christian. As a pagan, I'm going to call myself a Pagan.

Do not be so quick to confuse a religion with a certain sect, denomination, or idea taught by that religion. There are many falsehoods in the current Christian movements that spring not from the Bible but from medieval powermongering and from the want to control the religion of others in order to control their lives and lifestyles.
I consider myself one who is searching for the real truth in the Bible.
I do not follow modern Christianity, I follow Christ, and as such am a Christian.
There is a difference. Note it.

[AterCorax]

::hides in corner::

Yes, I know I can be a real b*tch most of the time.

I've thought about it since I posted that post in this thread, and I've decided that I obviously don't have any right to say any of the things I did. You can call yourself whatever you want, and I won't really mind. I'm not sure what came over me. I think it's my 'harsh' and 'honest' personality that overcomes me most of the time. It's the 'harsh' side that obviously wins when it comes to me. (I'm working on it.)

Don't mind me, I'm just a crazy little bastard who has pissed off quite a few admins for the past few days.

-Ater

PS: Is this the right time to use the "devil made me do it" excuse? :)

[AterCorax]

You made quite a few false statements there, as well.

The same thing could be said about your opinions.

Don't worrry, I won't say anything!! :hehehehe:

-Ater

[Pol]

Well, not really, seeing as I was speaking of spitting in the face of the pagan path - something which does not exist. ;)

[AterCorax]

I wasn't talking about that. :)

-Ater

[dragenfly]

The idea that you can only take communion if you are worthy is Catholic in origin. In reality, according to Biblical teaching, no one is worthy until they accept Christ, and then they need do nothing more to become "more" worthy.

By worthy I mean that you are not continuing to participate in those things you know and feel to be sinful and then ask for forgiveness only to do it again the next day whatever "it " may be. The origin of it in my life is not Catholic it is taught by my church which I have been a member of since 1982. If Catholics also believe this then I say good for them as well. I feel strongly that you should not take part in communion when you are constantly "sinning" (let me point out that when I say sin I mean what you believe is sin not what I believe sin is we all have our different oppinions on that based on our life experiences and our upbringings). When you say Biblical teaching, I am not sure what you mean because it has not been my Biblical teaching. In my oppinion a person can accept Christ and still beat their children, do drugs, have an affair, lie, cheat, etc... how is that worthy? I think your actions in life make you worthy. I think that the symbolism of the holy communion (in any religion) is SACRED and should be regarded as such.

[equinox2]

Originally Posted by Aine of the Fae


The idea that you can only take communion if you are worthy is Catholic in origin. In reality, according to Biblical teaching ...

Well, don’t forget that the Catholic church predates the compiling of the Bible, and that the decisions about what went into the Bible were made by Catholics. The Catholic church had already put together the doctrine that “there is no salvation outside the catholic church” by the 3rd century, and the decisions about what to include in the bible weren’t done until 100 years later in the 4th century. So arguing against something because it is “catholic in origin”, and then using the Bible to support the opposing idea is kinda like saying “well, that idea is Mormon in origin. In reality, according to the book of Mormon, it says…..”.


..., no one is worthy until they accept Christ, and then they need do nothing more to become "more" worthy.

Sort of. It depends on which books of the Bible you choose to emphasize, and which you choose to ignore. That idea (no one is worthy, etc.) is the main point of Paul’s beliefs. So it is well supported in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, and the other letters Paul wrote. It is not supported by books like Revelation, James, and Mt 25, or most of the OT, which describe a salvation based on what you do (works), not just on faith alone. Calvin and Luther took the faith alone stance, leading to todays protestants (Baptists, Lutherans, etc), and though the Catholics do say faith alone, they emphasize works as well, much to the consternation of many protestants.

[punxzen]

Can the Christian to just toss out the New Testament and still be Christian? I suppose if someone wants to live for today and still call themselves a Christian they can call themselves whatever they want – it just makes me wonder why they cling to that name. Of course, other Christianities didn’t revere the New Testament – but they did mostly go by what they thought Jesus taught – which was definitely a focus on the world to come, not on this world.

I see this as one of the main differences (and difficult things to reconcile) between Christianity and Paganism. Paganism is Earth-centered. :farmerjoe It is focused on this world and on our human lifespan. Because Christianity is by definition focused on Christ, and because one of the main themes of Jesus' apparent teachings was a focus on the coming kingdom of God, they seem a bit at odds on that point.

i have, my whole life, been of the mind that yeshua spoke of the coming kingdom of god as a way to describe enlightenment. he didn't mind much that his followers thought he meant what they wanted him to mean, in fact it was probably necessary in order for him to keep his audience so that he could spread the seeds of 'the coming kingdom of god' to as many as possible. in my opinion, he did a good job :)

[punxzen]

regarding the synthesis of christianity and paganism, i find it works remarkably well. the essence of christianity(in my experience) is a mysticism focused on the holy spirit or divine exemplified by yeshua, and i find that this synergizes nicely with magical systems being explored by pagan paths.

i am currently deeply involved in hermetic lore, while also exploring early christian paths damned as heretical by the early catholic church. they mix rather harmoniously :)

[Tobias]

I see this as one of the main differences (and difficult things to reconcile) between Christianity and Paganism. Paganism is Earth-centered. It is focused on this world and on our human lifespan. Because Christianity is by definition focused on Christ, and because one of the main themes of Jesus' apparent teachings was a focus on the coming kingdom of God, they seem a bit at odds on that point.

I've been meaning to reply to this too :)

When I was a teenager, God started speaking to me and showed me that to follow Him I needed to change all my foundations of what I understood Christianity to be. What He had me change them into was what you describe above as "Earth-centered".

One of the main foundations though was Jesus' teachings on the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus never taught that this Kingdom was somewhere to go live after we die, but something to attain to right here and now. I feel like my "Eternal Life" has already started, and that it is a privalege to follow and obey God's laws because they are merely principles to live by that are designed for my own good. When God asks me to not go "play in the street", I know it isn't some "test" to see how submissive I am or how much "faith" I have in Him so that He'll let me into heaven some day; but just plain good advice to keep me from suffering the pain of being run over by a car.

I have been following my path for over 20 years now, listening to God's voice and knowing I'm quite a bit different from most other Christians. I find it very interesting that it is so similar to how Paganism is practiced.

So my path is by nature very Pagan, yet my diety is the God of the Bible. :whatgives

[AterCorax]

Here I go again. I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

Here are some things from the bible:


Old Testament

Exod 22:18

18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Deut 18:10-12

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his
daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times,
or an enchanter, or a witch,

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a
necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because
of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Lev 20:27

27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely
be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

1 Chr 10:13-14

13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD,
even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking
counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;

14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom
unto David the son of Jesse.
.
New Testament

Acts 8:9-24

9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which before time in the same city
used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was
some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is
the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them
with sorceries.

Acts 16:16-18

16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a
spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the
servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the
spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he
came out the same hour.

Maybe it's just me, but the God of the bible is very clear that he doesn't want his followers to practice occult things (like divination, spells, etc.).

Now, if you follow Jesus Christ, but don't really care about what the bible says, I don't think you can call yourself a Christian. Jesus is the son of the Christian God; The Christian God doesn't approve of his followers practicing the occult, and will send them to hell for it.

If I was a follower of Jesus and a witch at the same time, I wouldn't call myself a Christian because of what the bible says about being a witch. Plus, I don't think that Christians would see you as a real Christian if you practice witchcraft. It just wouldn't make any sense.

Yes, I'm done rambling. I just don't get it, lol.

-Ater

[Brinclhof]

Here I go again. I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

Here are some things from the bible:



Maybe it's just me, but the God of the bible is very clear that he doesn't want his followers to practice occult things (like divination, spells, etc.).

Now, if you follow Jesus Christ, but don't really care about what the bible says, I don't think you can call yourself a Christian. Jesus is the son of the Christian God; The Christian God doesn't approve of his followers practicing the occult, and will send them to hell for it.

If I was a follower of Jesus and a witch at the same time, I wouldn't call myself a Christian because of what the bible says about being a witch. Plus, I don't think that Christians would see you as a real Christian if you practice witchcraft. It just wouldn't make any sense.

Yes, I'm done rambling. I just don't get it, lol.

-Ater

Ater,
Let me see if I can shed some light on this. When in the old testament they are refering to a witch or sorcery normally this refers to some one who draws their power from some other deity other than Jehovah. Jehovah is a very Jealous god and does not like people praying to other Gods. (This is the impression I get from most of the old testament verses you quoted.) The passage from Acts the person was trying to use their power to put themselves on an equal footing with God. This is a big no no.

As I stated in the other discussion on this "my right to call my self a christian witch"

The key point think here is that it defines socery as magical arts found in connection with idolatry. As a christo-pagan or christian witch I call only upon the christian God for my strength and spell work. I am therefore holding to the first commandment thou shalt have no other gods before me, and keeping to the most important commandment from Jesus, love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul. ONly when someone who claims to be a Christian witch or Christo-pagan call upon another God for a source of power do I think they create a conflict.

Jesus said he would grant power to heal and cast out demons to all those who do it in his name. He basically said with that statement that you could perform magical workings as long as you do it in worship of him or his father Jehovah.

This is the key to making Christo-paganism an Christian witchcraft work. You have to be rather careful when doing magick that you don't call on another God to help you with your magick. I'm not saying that I am or that Christo-pagan/Christian witches have to be intollerant or disrespectful of other Gods just that we have to take perhaps more care than others in how we worship and perform magick. We must keep Jehovah, Christ and the Holy Spirit central to our workings, and remember that any power we have comes from them.

[Aine of the Fae]

Here I go again. I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

Here are some things from the bible:



Maybe it's just me, but the God of the bible is very clear that he doesn't want his followers to practice occult things (like divination, spells, etc.).

Now, if you follow Jesus Christ, but don't really care about what the bible says, I don't think you can call yourself a Christian. Jesus is the son of the Christian God; The Christian God doesn't approve of his followers practicing the occult, and will send them to hell for it.

If I was a follower of Jesus and a witch at the same time, I wouldn't call myself a Christian because of what the bible says about being a witch. Plus, I don't think that Christians would see you as a real Christian if you practice witchcraft. It just wouldn't make any sense.

Yes, I'm done rambling. I just don't get it, lol.

-Ater

If you don't get it, that's fine. You aren't the one walking the path that I'm walking, so you don't have to get it.

I'm going to say this one more time (probably not the last time though):

IT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT MAKES ME A CHRISTIAN. IT IS MY BELIEF IN JESUS THE CHRIST AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR THAT MAKES ME A CHRISTIAN.

*deep breath*

Most Christians DO NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TESTAMENT. I've said this before, if they did, the American clothing industry would sink. (If you don't understand that, read the Bible.)

According to the Christian viewpoint, Christ fulfilled the Law of the Old Testament and we are no longer bound by it. (when on the Cross, Jesus said "It is finished" John 19:30 This is often interpreted to refer to his fulfilling the OT law and releasing it's binding ties on humanity... I knew I'd find that reference somewhere...) So throwing Old Testament references at a Christian is fairly useless. Yes, a lot of Christians are hypocritical in their usage of the Old Testament to condemn what they don't like, however not all Christians are like that.

Secondly, any letters written by "Paul" toss right out. There is some debate as to whether or not Paul even wrote many of them, and the Catholic church included them in the Bible as a way to convince the masses that the Catholic church was the "One True Chruch" It was the early Catholic church that decided what books would go in the Bible. There were many, many other writings about the life of Jesus that didn't make it into the Bible because the "church" didn't like them. Most of the books that are in the New Testament are Paul's letters to various churches telling them how things are "supposed" to be run.

There were many, many, many groups of Christians in the early years after Jesus' death. Most were supressed and banned as heretics when the Catholic church gained power through the machinations of a power-hungry emperor named Constantine. (Don't believe me? Check around. Oh, and ask Equinox, he's got LOTS of good info about the early Christian sects.)

Now in reference to your usage of Simon the Magus for saying Christianity and Witchcraft are not compatible:

First off the book of Acts was written after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. It's more properly named the Acts of the Apostles because it describes what the Apostles did after Jesus died, rose and ascended to Heaven. Mostly it describes Paul, who is an Apostle based solely on his word that he was visited by Jesus on a road-trip. So I do tend not to look at this particular book nearly as much as the others when defining what a Christian is.

However, Simon the Magus was another contender for Messiah status. (I'll find the reference on this someday...) Now, since the early Christians desperately needed Jesus to be the Messiah and not anyone else, they quickly needed to discredit anyone else who could possibly take that role. Simon was a healer, performing many of the same miracles that Christ performed, however his miracles were attributed to "sorcery" and not to the power of God. Why? Who knows. Is it possible that Simon the Magus and Jesus really did draw on the same power for healing? Probably. So why is Simon the bad guy? Because he didn't fit in with the beliefs of the mainstream church. The power players wanted Jesus to be Messiah and so he was.

There have been several Saviors throughout history, and each person will be drawn to the one that provides the best fit for them. Some people are Buddhists, others Christians, some are Jews still waiting for a Savior, some are Muslims and some want to do it without a Savior. It doesn't matter.

However, saying that I'm not a Christian because I don't follow the exactly proscribed path of a particular group or denomination is like me saying you aren't a Pagan because you don't live in the country.

[AterCorax]

Brinclhof,

The things you said make total sense to me. You're the only person who (in my view) gets what being Chrsitian is (it doesn't just mean believeing Jesus is your personal savior).

Thanks for the explenation!

-Ater

[AterCorax]

IT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT MAKES ME A CHRISTIAN. IT IS MY BELIEF IN JESUS THE CHRIST AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR THAT MAKES ME A CHRISTIAN.

Just because you see Jesus as your personal savior, does not mean that you are Christian. There are many churches/Christians who would disagree with you on this one.

-Ater

[Khuinaset]

Just because you see Jesus as your personal savior, does not mean that you are Christian. There are many churches/Christians who would disagree with you on this one.

Arguing that doesn't make sense to me. There are many many churches/Christians who(and I'm not saying all Christians are like this, I like Aine, one of my best friends is a devout Catholic) would tell you that Gandhi's in eternal torment and that Pat Robertson is getting a first-class ticket to heaven. Are they right? going by Jesus's teachings, I wouldn't think so.

I dunno if I've said so in this thread, but I don't think that there's any problem with mixing Christianity and Witchcraft. Like Obsidian said in another thread, if He has a problem with it I'm sure He'll let her know. She'll get struck down with lightning or some such :tongueout

[Aine of the Fae]

Arguing that doesn't make sense to me. There are many many churches/Christians who(and I'm not saying all Christians are like this, I like Aine, one of my best friends is a devout Catholic) would tell you that Gandhi's in eternal torment and that Pat Robertson is getting a first-class ticket to heaven. Are they right? going by Jesus's teachings, I wouldn't think so.

I dunno if I've said so in this thread, but I don't think that there's any problem with mixing Christianity and Witchcraft. Like Obsidian said in another thread, if He has a problem with it I'm sure he'll let her know. She'll get struck down with lightning or some such :tongueout

Speaking of which, I walk into a Catholic church every Saturday, a Methodist church every Sunday and various fundamentalist churches for weekly Bible studies, and I haven't been struck down once.

[AterCorax]

Are they right? going by Jesus's teachings, I wouldn't think so

There are some who say his teaching was about love and the such; still, there are others that say that his teachings were that he was the only way to God, and some not so "love" orianted things. Who's right? We'll never know.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Speaking of which, I walk into a Catholic church every Saturday, a Methodist church every Sunday and various fundamentalist churches for weekly Bible studies, and I haven't been struck down once.

You might if you told them that you also consider yourself a witch...:lilangel:

-Ater

[WolfWonderess]

Just because you see Jesus as your personal savior, does not mean that you are Christian. There are many churches/Christians who would disagree with you on this one.

Since when does it matter what *other* people/institutions think/believe?

Aine's spirituality is between herself and her God. It doesn't matter what the other churches and Christians think.

[AterCorax]

Since when does it matter what *other* people/institutions think/believe?

Aine's spirituality is between herself and her God. It doesn't matter what the other churches and Christians think.

I agree. But it comes out a bit differently when she is worshiping her God with other people.

-Ater

[Aine of the Fae]

You might if you told them that you also consider yourself a witch...:lilangel:

-Ater


Well actually.... the Catholic priest knows, he enjoys having theological discussion wiith me, and even once said he's learned more about the Bible talking to me then he did in seminary.

The Methodist minister is extremely progressive. Even recommended I read the Celestine Prophecy (already had) and the fundamentalist arw sweet, but think they'll convert me.

[AterCorax]

Well actually.... the Catholic priest knows, he enjoys having theological discussion wiith me, and even once said he's learned more about the Bible talking to me then he did in seminary.

The Methodist minister is extremely progressive. Even recommended I read the Celestine Prophecy (already had) and the fundamentalist arw sweet, but think they'll convert me.

That's nice of them. :)

-Ater

[Brinclhof]

Brinclhof,

The things you said make total sense to me. You're the only person who (in my view) gets what being Chrsitian is (it doesn't just mean believeing Jesus is your personal savior).

Thanks for the explenation!

-Ater

Actually I belive that all you really have to do to be a Christian is believe that Jesus is your personal savior and attempt to live as he would want you to live. The rest is alot of pomp and circumstance. I do not beleive that Jesus is the only way to salvation it is just the only way for me personally to reach salvation.

That being cleared up I am glad that my previous explanation was helpful and also want to clarify one more thing. Since I live in the bible belt (Mississippi) I refer to myself in public circles as christian. My beliefs are very unusual and so on my personal path I have changed the name from Christian to Christo, meaning to me Christ centered. Hence my path of Christo-paganism. I think it is important to point out that while I still consider myself Christian It is my own form of chistianity that does not fall with any one elses doctrine or practice. So just because the "church" believes something does not mean that I hold it true. I think this can be said for most of the Christan witches/pagans within this discussion.

[Mab]

Actually I belive that all you really have to do to be a Christian is believe that Jesus is your personal savior and attempt to live as he would want you to live.
actually...you could have ended that sentence after the phrase "personal savior". I don't have my Bible on me right now (am at work), but I will post later the verses in Ephesians, along with the original language text, that shows that once one is saved, one is always saved & nothing one does can be good enough to earn salvation or bad enough to earn damnation. I know a lot of ppl believe that you have to do human good, good works, be a nice person, go to church, whatever in order to be a Christian or a "good Christian". Frankly, from all the Bible study I've done, everything states "Believe plus nothing".

[punxzen]

Maybe it's just me, but the God of the bible is very clear that he doesn't want his followers to practice occult things (like divination, spells, etc.).
the problem with this argument is that the bible is more of a political institution, than an integral part of a spiritual path. many passages in the new testament were chosen and written for the specific purpose of creating dogma which directly contradicts what the hundreds of other churches at the time were saying. the fact that the catholic church denounced every other christian church as heresy, in my opinion, immediately negates anything they have to say about christ or god.


Now, if you follow Jesus Christ, but don't really care about what the bible says, I don't think you can call yourself a Christian. Jesus is the son of the Christian God; The Christian God doesn't approve of his followers practicing the occult, and will send them to hell for it.

how about a person who is devoted to lord krsna, but cares little for the doctrinal teachings of the hare krsna movements, or who follows the teachings of sidharta, but cares little for the methods of certain sects of buddhism? personally, i think those people have every right to use whatever terms they want to to describe their spiritual practice.

the christian god is different between differing churches of christianity. some believe that yhwh was an evil demiurge who created the world and all its trappings, and that jesus is the incarnation of the one true god, and that he came to show us the way out of the trappings of the evil god yhwh. some churches believe that the christian god that jesus spoke of was a state of mind which he was trying to teach us how to reach. there is no single 'christian god', everyone who has a true connection to God will experience it in their own subjective way, unless their claim to christianity is just a claim cuz they follow certain tenets offered to them by the church/bible.


If I was a follower of Jesus and a witch at the same time, I wouldn't call myself a Christian because of what the bible says about being a witch. Plus, I don't think that Christians would see you as a real Christian if you practice witchcraft. It just wouldn't make any sense.

i generally don't waste my time with people who are not capable of respecting my path, so i dont really care whether some hypothetical christian is close-minded to my claims to christianity. if you were a follower of jesus, but did not want to call yourself a christian for whatever reason, thats totally cool by me. im a follower of sidharta, but i rarely if ever call myself a buddhist.


Yes, I'm done rambling. I just don't get it, lol.

thats okay if you don't get it, keep asking questions and we will try to explain as best we can :)

[Brinclhof]

actually...you could have ended that sentence after the phrase "personal savior". I don't have my Bible on me right now (am at work), but I will post later the verses in Ephesians, along with the original language text, that shows that once one is saved, one is always saved & nothing one does can be good enough to earn salvation or bad enough to earn damnation. I know a lot of ppl believe that you have to do human good, good works, be a nice person, go to church, whatever in order to be a Christian or a "good Christian". Frankly, from all the Bible study I've done, everything states "Believe plus nothing".

so your saying someone who is saved and then goes out and kills 20 people just for kicks is still going to receive salvation????

I personally beleive that you are right we are not good enough to earn salvation but we at least have to work at it. I beleive there is a hell of some sort. May be not the fire and brimstone of the bible but some where some how you will be punished for being "evil". Call it bad Karma and you get regenerated as a cockroach or you burn for eternity but it is possible to be damned.

NOw I also feel you have to really screw up things royally to be truly damned and there be no chance of redemption but I do think it is possible.

But I did see your point also. Most people who accept Jesus as their personal savior are going to live that way anyway.

[Brinclhof]

Oh I just also want to say that the discussion the last few days while being very in depth has too me seemed more civilized than it has at times in the past. I have been really enjoying it. We have been discussing and sharing ideas not arguing.


thanks

[californiablackwolf]

Here is a thought.
God (according to the christian belief) gave us life and the feedom to choose. granted according to the bible adam and eve tasted the fruit form the tree that held the knowledge of good and evil. however; if God gave us the freedom to choose, why do we have so many people that are convinced that their way is the only way and refuse to accept that everyone (according to gods law) has the right to choose for themselves. is it not the will of "satan" that everyone do as it is written. so if this is true then the "organized" religions of this world disobeying "gods law" by pushing their religion onto people that are unwilling to hear this. I expect a few harsh comments for this line of thought however it will get people talking. :) have a great week everyone.

[Tobias]

So what exactly does it take to be considered a Christian?

Do you have to accept Jesus as your Saviour? Only if you are Evangelical. Other Christian denominations have different opinions about what it takes.

Do you have to accept the Bible as truth? No. There are many liberal Christians who don't expect anyone to believe the whole Bible is true. They question the virgin birth, the resurection, and most of the signs and wonders. They also don't accept the anti-homosexual passages in the Bible -- which are just about as clear as all the passages concerning witchcraft.

The religion of Christianity incorperates a lot of people. Many of those who claim it as their faith do very little in the way of following it's path. They have no problem considering themselves to be Christian, yet go through life breaking many of the rules.

There are Homosexual denominations, because many gays have grown up in Christianity and don't wish to change their beleifs just because they have been rejected by most churches. They don't care to convert to another religion that accepts their lifestyle, or call themselves anything but Christian just to make the Fundies happy.

So who's job is it to decide which people get to call themselves Christians? I figure if someone who doesn't do jack to follow the Christian principles can call themself a Christian, then surely I'm entitled to the name for how much of it I do follow... even if I add to that faith other things which might not quite fit with the traditional path.

[AterCorax]

Actually I belive that all you really have to do to be a Christian is believe that Jesus is your personal savior and attempt to live as he would want you to live.

How do you know how Jesus wanted you to live? Assumption? The bible? Something else?

-Ater

[AterCorax]

thats okay if you don't get it, keep asking questions and we will try to explain as best we can :)

I'm going to take you up on the offer. :)

I think it's my personal views and my views when I was Christian that get in the way of me understanding this. I mean, I can understand a witch believeing in Jesus, but in my view, believeing in Jesus does not make one a Christian. Yes, yes, his name is Jesus Christ , but Christianity existed long before he came into the picture. And Christianity is made up of a lot more than just Jesus.

When I was Christian I did believe in Jesus and would pray to him, but I always understood that he is the son of God, and not the God himself.

I basically think that it takes a lot more to be a Christian than just believeing in Jesus. Just like I wouldn't call myself Hellenic just because I worship Hekate.

-Ater

PS: So, no questions really; just lots of confusion!

[Aine of the Fae]

*snip* Yes, yes, his name is Jesus Christ , but Christianity existed long before he came into the picture.* snip*


Uhm... no it didn't... Christianity didn't exist until after Jesus. Christianity is nothing without Jesus.

[Aine of the Fae]

How do you know how Jesus wanted you to live? Assumption? The bible? Something else?

-Ater

Does it really matter?

[AterCorax]

They also don't accept the anti-homosexual passages in the Bible -- which are just about as clear as all the passages concerning witchcraft.

I find the following passages pretty clear:

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his
daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times,
or an enchanter, or a witch,

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a
necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because
of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Lev 20:27

27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely
be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't really find any alternative meaning to the above passages...

So, according to you, the anti-homosexual passages are clear as day.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Does it really matter?

It does if you choose to call yourself a Christian, I would think.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Uhm... no it didn't... Christianity didn't exist until after Jesus. Christianity is nothing without Jesus.

Umm, yes it did.

-Ater

[WolfWonderess]

but Christianity existed long before he came into the picture. And Christianity is made up of a lot more than just Jesus.

In addition to what Aine said, I might add...the religion before Christ was Judaisim. Jesus himself was Jewish. It only became Christianity after Jesus came into the picture.

Also...you quoted a lot from the Old Testament. From my own understanding of Christianity, Jesus' presence shattered the old laws of the OT, so, if you're Christian, you are not bound to those laws. The NT is Christianity's guide. The OT is just some good reference material.

'Course, I could be wrong...but that's what I've read.

[Aine of the Fae]

What she said.

[AterCorax]

'Course, I could be wrong...but that's what I've read.

You just might be. :)

Edited to add: But, my point really isn't if it existed before Jesus or not. My point is that Christianity is a lot more than just believeing in Jesus (and in this instance, just believeing he was a big ball [or message] of love and nothing else.)

-Ater

[Aine of the Fae]

I find the following passages pretty clear:

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his
daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times,
or an enchanter, or a witch,

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a
necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because
of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Lev 20:27

27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely
be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't really find any alternative meaning to the above passages...

So, according to you, the anti-homosexual passages are clear as day.

-Ater

Ok, I'm going to say this again:

I do not live by the Old Testament. According to basic Christian theology, NO ONE who accepts Christ as Savior is bound by the Old Testament, in any way, shape or form. That's according to the theology of a majority of the mainstream Christian churches today.

So throwing Old Testament scripture at me is bull. If you don't follow it, and I don't follow it, what relevance does it have to the discussion.

The Christian Bible includes the Old Testament for the sole purpose of historical and prophetic reference.

Now, Christians are as guilty as ANYONE of picking and choosing and mis-matching their religion. There is also a large amount of variation in interpretation of scripture. If you're Catholic you are to rely on the churches interpretation, but if you're Protestant? Well then, it's supposed to be all up to yourself. However, many of the more conservative denominations have gone back to the "don't think, just shut up and listen to us because we know what we're talking about" attitude.

What most people now know as Christiany is not the only way to do it. In fact it's very likely that it wasn't the first version of Christianity.

Right from the beginning of the movement, there were many, many variations on what made a Christian, and yet at the time they were all considered valid. It wasn't until many, many years later that a group of men calling themselves Catholics decided that they were the only right ones and everyone else was wrong. They then proceeded to pick and choose among the writings of various Christians and put it together in a Bible, calling it divinely inspired so the could "prove" they were right.

However, a careful reading of that very same "New Testament" that they put together will point out contradictions in this. However they are dismissed and if you question it you are told that you can't understand it, you simply don't have enough education. Indoctrination is more like it.

Now here is one verse I would like you to consider when telling a person they "can't" be Christian just because their beliefs differ from what you are used to. And I'm going to include a few different versions, just to make it clear to you:

1 Corinthians 12:3

NRSV - Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Let Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

REB - For this reason I must impress upon you that no one who says "A curse on Jesus!" can be speaking under the influence of the Spirit of God; and no one can say "Jesus is Lord!" except under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

NAB - Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, "Jesus be accursed." And no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

NJB - Because of that, I want to make it quite clear to you that no one who says, "A curse on Jesus" can be speaking in the Spirit of God, and nobody is able to say, "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

KJV - Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, calleth Jesus cursed. And that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

NIV - Therfore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Now, I think maybe that's enough translations to get the point across, but I'll explain it just in case:

No one can say "Jesus is Lord" unless they are inhabited by the Holy Spirit. And if you remember correctly, no one is inhabited by the Holy Spirit unless they are a Christian. And I proudly proclaim Jesus is Lord so who are you to tell me I'm not a Christian.

[punxzen]

keep in mind that the new testament does not contain all the gospels of jesus and is what the roman catholic church put together to support their understanding of christianity and denounce all other forms of christianity. christianity simply did not exist before jesus, Ater. before jesus there was judaism, which for a lot of christians plays a minor or negligible part in their spirituality.

[AterCorax]

And I proudly proclaim Jesus is Lord so who are you to tell me I'm not a Christian.

You might be Christian by your definition, but when it comes to most other Christians, you are not.

You're like a Jew who worships Jesus... (And how much sense does that make?)

-Ater

[Aine of the Fae]

You might be Christian by your definition, but when it comes to most other Christians, you are not.

You're like a Jew who worships Jesus... (And how much sense does that make?)

-Ater

It doesn't have to make sense to you or to anyone else for my path to be valid.

[WolfWonderess]

You might be Christian by your definition, but when it comes to most other Christians, you are not.

You're like a Jew who worships Jesus... (And how much sense does that make?)

Again, I'll ask...

Since when does it matter what other people think of her spiritual path? She calls herself Christian, and one can ONLY be Christian if they accept Christ. If you follow the Bible but don't accept Christ, you ain't Christian. If you accept Christ and follow or do not follow the Bible, you ARE Christian. The Bible has very little impact on whether or not you are Christian. Accepting Christ is the sole determining factor.

And, again...doesn't matter if other Christians see her as Christian or not. Her spirituality is between herself and her God.

Besides, there are MANY Christians who claim other Christians aren't Christian. Protestants calls Catholics non-Christians, etc. However, by definition, ANYONE who accepts Christ as savior IS a Christian. That's the sole factor that unites all the Christian denominations.

As for your last comment...

As she doesn't accept the OT, she CAN'T be Jewish.

And there are, by the way, Messiahnic (sp) Jews who do accept Jesus. It can be done, but it requires accepting the OT.

[AterCorax]

I'm not saying it's not valid.

I'm saying that to be Christian by modern definition takes a lot more than believing in Jesus.

Everything comes back to labels, doesn't it?

-Ater

[punxzen]

You might be Christian by your definition, but when it comes to most other Christians, you are not.

You're like a Jew who worships Jesus... (And how much sense does that make?)

-Ater

woah, how is she like a jew????

have you ever looked into judaism???

[punxzen]

I'm not saying it's not valid.

I'm saying that to be Christian by modern definition takes a lot more than believing in Jesus.

Everything comes back to labels, doesn't it?

-Ater

i think that you will find the modern definition of most ANY word varies from person to person

generally speaking, the uniting factor between all forms of christianity is christ. and there is a lot of variance on what it means to accept christ. some churches believe he is the incarnation of the one true god, come to help us escape the confines of the evil demiurge YHWH (the jewish god). those churches are christian and they completely detest the god of judaism

[WolfWonderess]

Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

From dictionary.com

[Aine of the Fae]

woohoo!!! I'm not the only one who goes to dictionary.com....

[WolfWonderess]

LOL! It's a lifesaver, I tell ya... XD

[AterCorax]

woah, how is she like a jew????

have you ever looked into judaism???

Umm, I was using it as an example of how much a Christian practicing witchcraft makes sense. I wasn't saying that she had anything in common with Judaism.

What kind of idiot do you people think I am?

-Ater

[Aine of the Fae]

Umm, I was using it as an example of how much a Christian practicing witchcraft makes sense. I wasn't saying that she had anything in common with Judaism.

What kind of idiot do you people think I am?

-Ater

We don't think you are an idiot.

However Jesus was Jewish and so were his disciples. So how is it again that it doesn't make sense for a Jew to worship Jesus? If they believe in Jesus and still hold to the OT law, then they are still Jewish.

[AterCorax]

I think I finally got it!! :)


Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

So this is how killers, rapists, child-molesters (...etc.) can call themselves Christians. As long as they believe that Jesus is their savior, no matter what they do in life, they are Christians.

So, basically Christians don't have to live by any moral codes. ('Thou shalt not kill,' and so on.)

And they say Satanists are bad people...

-Ater

PS: Well, at least it makes sense.

[punxzen]

Umm, I was using it as an example of how much a Christian practicing witchcraft makes sense. I wasn't saying that she had anything in common with Judaism.

What kind of idiot do you people think I am?

-Ater

apologies, i misunderstood your statement.

so does it make any further sense to you yet? i think we have offered some clear examples of how christianity does not have to have anything to do with the bible

[AterCorax]

We don't think you are an idiot.

However Jesus was Jewish and so were his disciples. So how is it again that it doesn't make sense for a Jew to worship Jesus? If they believe in Jesus and still hold to the OT law, then they are still Jewish.

If they believe that Jesus is their savior, then they aren't Jewish. That was my point.

-Ater

[punxzen]

I think I finally got it!! :)



So this is how killers, rapists, child-molesters (...etc.) can call themselves Christians. As long as they believe that Jesus is their savior, no matter what they do in life, they are Christians.

So, basically Christians don't have to live by any moral codes. ('Thou shalt not kill,' and so on.)

And they say Satanists are bad people...

-Ater

PS: Well, at least it makes sense.

christians are like anyone else, they decide what moral code they will live by.

[punxzen]

If they believe that Jesus is their savior, then they aren't Jewish. That was my point.

-Ater
that doesnt account for messianic jews Ater

[Aine of the Fae]

I think I finally got it!! :)



So this is how killers, rapists, child-molesters (...etc.) can call themselves Christians. As long as they believe that Jesus is their savior, no matter what they do in life, they are Christians.

So, basically Christians don't have to live by any moral codes. ('Thou shalt not kill,' and so on.)

And they say Satanists are bad people...

-Ater

PS: Well, at least it makes sense.

Like it or not, yeah that's pretty much how it is. But generally someone who truly believes in Jesus, and truly wants to "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk" will have a pretty decent moral code to go along with it. May not be the same as every other Christian, but it's still there.

Of course this is one of the reasons I hate language, especially the English language. It is so brutal and limiting...

[punxzen]

Of course this is one of the reasons I hate language, especially the English language. It is so brutal and limiting...

good point, consider the peoples that it originated from. the angles and saxons if i remember correctly. brutal and limiting (at least in the snippets of history i have researched of them). hence why i am trying to learn greek and coptic.

[AterCorax]

that doesnt account for messianic jews Ater

The whole point of Christianity (from what people here are saying) is that Jesus is the savior. The Jews who beleved him to be such became Christians. Those who did not accept him as their savior, remained Jews.

Messianic Jews? Could you explain to me their beliefs, since I've never heard of them. Unless they're another minority who goes against everyone else and follow a personal path without wanting to change their label.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Like it or not, yeah that's pretty much how it is. But generally someone who truly believes in Jesus, and truly wants to "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk" will have a pretty decent moral code to go along with it. May not be the same as every other Christian, but it's still there.

Well, since nobody really knows what the "walk" was, I don't think you have any right to tell people if they are true Christians or not. Just like I don't have any right to tell you what you should call yourself.

Basically, if Jesus is their savior, they are Christian no matter what you or I say. Isn't that the whole point of your arguement?

-Ater

[Aine of the Fae]

Well, since nobody really knows what the "walk" was, I don't think you have any right to tell people if they are true Christians or not. Just like I don't have any right to tell you what you should call yourself.

Basically, if Jesus is their savior, they are Christian no matter what you or I say. Isn't that the whole point of your arguement?

-Ater

I never told anyone they weren't a true Christian. As far as I'm concerned a Christian is anyone who says they are. It's not my place to judge.

[punxzen]

aye, i think the point of the argument is that a person's spirituality is between themself and their spirituality

[AterCorax]

I never told anyone they weren't a true Christian. As far as I'm concerned a Christian is anyone who says they are. It's not my place to judge.

That's good. So, there was no point in you saying that Christians generally have morals. It might be true, but that doesn't make them Christian; their belief in Jesus as their savior does.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

aye, i think the point of the argument is that a person's spirituality is between themself and their spirituality

True. But when they label their personal take on a certain spirituality as something that millions of other people believe in, it becomes a problem. I think it's agreed that most Christians don't consider themselves witches also. (That's basically where the problem arises from. It might not be right, but that's how most Christians feel.)

-Ater

[WolfWonderess]

So this is how killers, rapists, child-molesters (...etc.) can call themselves Christians. As long as they believe that Jesus is their savior, no matter what they do in life, they are Christians.

So, basically Christians don't have to live by any moral codes. ('Thou shalt not kill,' and so on.)

And they say Satanists are bad people...

-Ater

PS: Well, at least it makes sense.

There are certain moral codes Jesus laid down. However, yes, all one has to do is profess belief in Jesus to be "saved"--but it also has to be authentic, of course.

But, yes, there are child rapists and the like who are Christian. The same goes for Pagans, or any other group of people. Christians do have a moral code to follow--Jesus taught tolerance and kindness. But not all people obey it, of course.

And I certainly wouldn't generalize...


Messianic Jews? Could you explain to me their beliefs, since I've never heard of them.

One of my closest friends in high school and her family was Messianic Jew. They ARE Jewish, they observe Jewish traditions and the OT, but they also observe Christian traditions and the NT. Basically, they are Christian-Jew. And there are quite a few of them.


Unless they're another minority who goes against everyone else and follow a personal path without wanting to change their label.

What exactly are you trying to say?

People choose the label that best fits them. If you practice Jewish AND Christian practices, and believe in both teachings, don't you think Christian-Jew (Messianic Jew) is most fitting? If you're a Wiccan who also believes in Jesus as savior, Christian-Wiccan would be a fitting descriptive label. *shrug* And, as far as I see it, every path *is* personal.

But, yeah, the whole point of the discussion as I see it is how you describe your spirituality is your own decision, and it doesn't matter if anyone else sees it that way. You owe no one an explanation. *shrug*

[punxzen]

True. But when they label their personal take on a certain spirituality as something that millions of other people believe in, it becomes a problem. I think it's agreed that most Christians don't consider themselves witches also. (That's basically where the problem arises from. It might not be right, but that's how most Christians feel.)

-Ater
how bout when those millions label THEIR beliefs the same as my very different spirituality? if i can handle that, then i fully expect them to be able to handle the reverse.

[WolfWonderess]

True. But when they label their personal take on a certain spirituality as something that millions of other people believe in, it becomes a problem. I think it's agreed that most Christians don't consider themselves witches also. (That's basically where the problem arises from. It might not be right, but that's how most Christians feel.)

To whom is it a problem?

If it's a problem to the practitioner of the faith...then, yeah, something should be done. If it's a problem to another Christian... *shrug* I say they mind their own business.

If other neo-Pagans see how I label myself and what I believe as a problem...it's *their* problem, not mine. :P

[Brinclhof]

Man I get busy at work for a few hours and look what happens. Four pages of replies get added. I'll try to contribute some when I have a momement to catch up.

[AterCorax]

Christians do have a moral code to follow--Jesus taught tolerance and kindness. But not all people obey it, of course.

The definition which you kindly provided for us disagrees with you. So, do you always use whichever arguement in a discussion, at any given time? Either you have a view or not. You can't just say different things at different times.

Here is the definition that you posted to prove your point before (which now you seem to be ignoring because it doesn't go with your current arguement):

"Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." (Note, you put the word 'or' in bold.)

Make up your mind, and then we can further our discussion.

But, here's one more thing. One could believe in Jesus as savior, and one could believe/practice Wicca. But, that does not make them Christian and Wiccan. It makes them neither, since the two don't go together. The same goes for the so called Christian-Jews. Just call yourself eclectic and be done with it.

What's next? Muslim-Christians?

This is some dangerous logic in my opinion.

-Ater

[AterCorax]

how bout when those millions label THEIR beliefs the same as my very different spirituality? if i can handle that, then i fully expect them to be able to handle the reverse.

Good luck with that. ;)

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Also, as I mentioned before:

Why not just say you're eclectic? It's a wonderful word.

-Ater

[WolfWonderess]

The definition which you kindly provided for us disagrees with you. So, do you always use whichever arguement in a discussion, at any given time? Either you have a view or not. You can't just say different things at different times.

Or doesn't mean that is has to be only one of such things. It can be both. Or it can be one or the other.

And I never said *all* Christians follow the moral code, did I? As I recall, I said some don't obey it. Goes for anyone. So, I don't really feel I was saying two different things, though I can see how it would be taken as such. *shrug* Fact is, Jesus did provide a moral code, which many Christians follow. You don't have to follow the Bible/religion to follow Jesus' example.


But, here's one more thing. One could believe in Jesus as savior, and one could believe/practice Wicca. But, that does not make them Christian and Wiccan. It makes them neither, since the two don't go together. The same goes for the so called Christian-Jews. Just call yourself eclectic and be done with it.


*shrug* Who are you to tell people what to call themselves?

If I feel I am a Christian-Pagan, because I adhere to the values and beliefs of both, and have managed to combine both in a way that works for me, I will call myself a Christian-Pagan, because that is what I feel best describes my spirituality, etc.

Eclectic is far less specific. As an eclectic neo-Pagan myself, I refer to myself as eclectic because I draw from so many different sources. If I was, say, a Christian-Wiccan, there is no need to call myself eclectic, as it can be narrowed down to *exactly* what I believe and practice.

But, again, it varies from person to person.

Again, if someone has a problem with how I label myself...it's *their* problem. Not mine.

[AterCorax]

Or doesn't mean that is has to be only one of such things. It can be both. Or it can be one or the other.

I think we all knew that.


As I recall, I said some don't obey it.

Don't "obey" it? Excuse me, but what is there to obey? They just have to believe Jesus is their savior. No morals to obey there.

It's your word choice that's confusing me here.


*shrug* Who are you to tell people what to call themselves?

*shrug* Who are you to tell me that I have no right to personal opinion?


If I feel I am a Christian-Pagan, because I adhere to the values and beliefs of both, and have managed to combine both in a way that works for me, I will call myself a Christian-Pagan, because that is what I feel best describes my spirituality, etc.

Good for you, but you can't really be totally true to Christisanity by being a pagan. That's my view, at least.


Eclectic is far less specific. As an eclectic neo-Pagan myself, I refer to myself as eclectic because I draw from so many different sources. If I was, say, a Christian-Wiccan, there is no need to call myself eclectic, as it can be narrowed down to *exactly* what I believe and practice.

Christianity and Wicca can never be blended together without surpressing (sp?) one of either (or both for that matter). Therefore, that person would do better by saying that they're eclectic, '...with a blend of Christianity and Wicca.' It would cause a lot less arguements. (Note: I am not reffering to Cunningham-style [do what you want] Wicca here, but the traditional Garderian and Alexandrian [sp?] Wicca.)


Again, if someone has a problem with how I label myself...it's *their* problem. Not mine.

But it does affect you. Therefore it becomes your problem that they have a problem with it. (I think that's why you're here, talking to me, right now.)

-Ater

[Tobias]

I went to a Messianic Temple for a couple of years, and really enjoyed it. It spread a whole new light onto Christianity.

I guess the whole Idea is to reconstruct the religion that Jesus actually practiced. He did follow all of the Jewish laws, remember. According to the Jewish religion, the Torah is interpreted differently by notable Rabbis throughout history. Jesus had his own version, which is what the Messianics try and follow.

Fundimental Christians do not discard the Old Testiment like Aine has mentioned that some protestants do. They consider it just as relevant as the new. However, many of the practices are done away with by being "fulfilled". Messianics don't accept that veiw, and continue to practice the Law of Moses. Instead of celebrating Easter and Christmas which are just converted Pagan holidays, they celebrate the Jewish holidays the same way that Jesus did.

There really are quite a number of Messianics. Some consider themselves to still be Christians, others are not so sure. I gave it up because I couldn't see that following the Jewish laws did anything to increase my spirituality or communion with God. It may be good for some, but I don't believe that God has asked me to walk that path.

[Pol]

Ater: I completely blend my Christianity with my Paganism. Does that mean I follow every teaching of every denomination of Christianity out there, and also assign myself to every pagan idea there is? No.
I call myself a Christian Pagan because that's what I am. I also call myself an eclectic pagan, a Christian with pagan ideas, and many other things.

I'm pretty proud of my oxymoron.

[Shugo]

Ok, I've got a question for you all:
I'm in no way drawn towards Christian-Wicca (currently I practice a blend of Celtic Wicca, Shinto, Buddhism, and Hinduism) but lately I've been feeling drawn to obtain a rosary to use for prayer. I was wondering if anyone knew any place I could get a rosary in Seattle that wasn't a cheap chunk of plastic but wasn't exhorbitantly expensive?

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, I've got a question for you all:
I'm in no way drawn towards Christian-Wicca (currently I practice a blend of Celtic Wicca, Shinto, Buddhism, and Hinduism) but lately I've been feeling drawn to obtain a rosary to use for prayer. I was wondering if anyone knew any place I could get a rosary in Seattle that wasn't a cheap chunk of plastic but wasn't exhorbitantly expensive?

The rosary can be quite addicting! Try ebay, you can find rosaries for really good prices, and then here is a site:

http://www.rosaryshop.com

They have rosaries for a lot of different prices. Also try looking in your local Christian store. Prices range from $5.00 to $50 or more!

[WolfWonderess]

*shrug* Who are you to tell me that I have no right to personal opinion?

Did I ever say that?


Good for you, but you can't really be totally true to Christisanity by being a pagan. That's my view, at least.


Christianity and Wicca can never be blended together without surpressing (sp?) one of either (or both for that matter). Therefore, that person would do better by saying that they're eclectic, '...with a blend of Christianity and Wicca.' It would cause a lot less arguements. (Note: I am not reffering to Cunningham-style [do what you want] Wicca here, but the traditional Garderian and Alexandrian [sp?] Wicca.)

The followers of mixed religions seem to get along just fine. Again, it's up to them. Doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks.


But it does affect you. Therefore it becomes your problem that they have a problem with it. (I think that's why you're here, talking to me, right now.)

I'm not a Christian-Pagan by any stretch of the label. Just an eclectic Pagan. ^_~

However, nope...it hasn't become my problem. I'm here because I like a good debate. XD And I'm a fan of mixing faiths. It's quite interesting to see how people get different systems (which often seem to clash by most people's standards) to work in harmony with one another, as someone who draws from and blends in facets from different faiths myself.

[AterCorax]

Ater: I completely blend my Christianity with my Paganism. Does that mean I follow every teaching of every denomination of Christianity out there, and also assign myself to every pagan idea there is? No.

Umm, did I say that? Please give me a quote.


I call myself a Christian Pagan because that's what I am. I also call myself an eclectic pagan, a Christian with pagan ideas, and many other things.

I'm pretty proud of my oxymoron.

I'm okay with "eclectic pagan" and "a Christian with pagan ideas," but I am not okay with "Christian Pagan." (That doesn't mean I want you to stop calling yourself as such. It's just my personal opinion that it logically can't be.)

-Ater

[AterCorax]

Did I ever say that?

It was implied.


I'm not a Christian-Pagan by any stretch of the label. Just an eclectic Pagan. ^_~

However, nope...it hasn't become my problem. I'm here because I like a good debate. XD And I'm a fan of mixing faiths. It's quite interesting to see how people get different systems (which often seem to clash by most people's standards) to work in harmony with one another, as someone who draws from and blends in facets from different faiths myself.

I have no problem with mixing faiths. I have problem with the labeling. (Again, why not say eclectic or Christian with pagan influences or whatever.)

I should add: I am not telling people what they should call themselves. I'm just saying that it doesn't make much sense to me. I'm just expressing my personal opinion, and I'm okay with people disagreeing with it.

-Ater

[CleftOfLight]

ummmmmmmmm how about Chaos Christanity blend?