Why is Jesus our Saviour?

[Holly Ariadna]

I don't know if this thread should be here, but oh well..

I just wanted to know your opinions about why Jesus supposedly is our (Christians') Saviour? I guess I just don't understand how something HE did could have affected people 2000 years later? Is it because He told people what they should and should not do, so that we now KNOW it? I'm trying to get this a bit better... :gagged:

[Shanti]

I think because he was gods son. Thats what I rememmber from catholic school and he sacrificed himself for our sins.

[IvyWitch]

Mankind needs saving because man is apparently sinful, and as such we can't reach God, and then Jesus comes along and his death was the sacrafice that allows us to reach God even though we are are sinful as long as we believe in him

And that's the short cynical version because I'm tired. --;

Hey! Aine and Stephanie! I think we need you two in here. :p

[Klucky]

Because God said so? :whatmewor

-Klucky

[IvyWitch]

Because God said so? :whatmewor

-Klucky

I like your answer better :spinner:

[mara]

Because mankind is so wretched and sinful that God sent his only son as a sacrifice..to die in our place. As I recall.

[Spiritcalf]

My thoughts: Jesus pronounced yeshua was a prophet who Christians clame to be the son of God. I can not say whether he is The son of the God and Goddess or not, that is up to you to decide. However right now I just think he was a very groovy dude who just wanted us to chill out as a people and come together for a change. The man loved everyone, he helped others who needed it, and he gave the people something to believe in. Do I think he really exsisted, yes. do I think he was really the Lord and Ladies supposed son, I dunno anymore. If you need him to be your saviour then he can be your saviour, whatever makes you feel right inside.

[FIREDRAGON]

Because mankind is so wretched and sinful that God sent his only son as a sacrifice..to die in our place. As I recall.
God sent Jesus to save mankind from sin. He gives us the gift of heaven.



Have no fear of tommrrow.
Jesus is already there.

[Aine of the Fae]

Short answer? Well... ok, there isn't really a short answer... Taiyo_no_miko summed it up pretty well, but left out one important thing. Jesus was (according to scripture) sinless. And so he was the only sacrifice "worthy" of God. He didn't have to do it, but chose to because of his love for humanity. That's the basic mainstream Christian belief.

Christianity isn't the only "sin" centered religion, Judasm and (I believe) Islam are as well. Buddhism isn't sin-centered per se, however they do believe that the current world is an illusion and that only through proper training can one escape and become enlightened.

[Spiritcalf]

Question, if he is the son of God, where is the Mother in Christian Philosophy, and I do not mean Mart. God did not sleep with a mortal.

[IvyWitch]

Question, if he is the son of God, where is the Mother in Christian Philosophy, and I do not mean Mart. God did not sleep with a mortal.

There is none, really. Christianity doesn't have the duality thing going for itself, and doesn't really have to since it's not a "birth" oriented mythos like the Greek mythos. There was never any mother figure because it's creation started with work, and not a birth. Basically the most clear way to explain it is that Mary was "artificially inseminated" by God's power and out popped Jesus.

[Aine of the Fae]

Yes, actually God did sleep with a mortal. Mary is the mother of Jesus, and according to Catholics the Mother of God, but don't tell that to a Protestant... Oi... you'd have some trouble there...

And technically, he didn't sleep with her, but instead made her pregnant, actually an easy task if you believe he's the Creator. Christian belief is NOT the only one where a god slept with a mortal, many, many other myth systems have examples. Ever heard of Hercules?

[mara]

I was protestant and believed that mary was the mother of Jesus..who I also believed was God. the difference between Catholics and Protestants in my experience was that the protestants thought the Catholics worshipped Mary , and to them that was wrong. I was taught that you prayed to the father only in the name of Jesus.

[IvyWitch]

well the reason I think most protestants don't like the Mary aspect of the Catholics (at least in the modern sense..) is because the Catholics put Mary and the Saints up on a pedestal that is closer to God than humans, which makes them almost God-like in thier own right, and the Protestants don't believe that any human however great thier faith can ever reach that level. I'm not so sure I agree though.

[SylverStar]

Well from what I got was...

Jesus/God realized that the only way to save humans from Hell or give them a chance was to sacrifice himself. Being God and becoming mortal is a huge sacrifice in itself and than also going through an agonizing mortal life. The pain and humiliation he suffered through his life was basically, in my eyes, the sins of everyone coming to him. But unlike humans he made his life not about himself but about others. So even though he suffered and it was because of everyone around him he still continued to preach a faith that included helping one another and forgiving each other and turning the other cheek. Also his death and him being the savior is his act of forgiveness on the humans. This is a hard doctrine to follow though because while Jesus was God we are merely human. Also the reason we need a savior.

As for the whole God doing it with Mary. I though it was actually the angel that impregnated Mary, but that could have also been God.

[Ladyvi]

im of the other people .. the savior doesnt apply to me .. as i understand it though.. he is the begotten son of the christian god. basically an angelic entity that volunteered to take on the mantel of man knowing he would be slaughtered unto the face of the earth to cleanse it with his pure and untainted blood. for an angel of light. putting on the mantel of man was like putting on filthy rags. but he did it. was born with full knowledge of who and what he is. therefore fully awakened sentient being in a mortal body. with all the mortal frailties.

[Morr]

Since I was kindly asked to intervene... *wink*

Do you want a dogmatic answer? or a historical answer?

~ Dogmatically speaking, everyone here got it pretty right on. This is what the church says, and this is what christians are supposed to believe.

~ Historically speaking, he was a Rabbi who wanted to lead a revolution within the Jewish community, of 1st Century Judea - But he failed in his own days. However, was lucky enough to have his followers continue and spread his teachings. And the fact that Constantine Caesar was there in 313AD, didnt hurt at all.




Christianity isn't the only "sin" centered religion, Judasm and (I believe) Islam are as well. Buddhism isn't sin-centered per se, however they do believe that the current world is an illusion and that only through proper training can one escape and become enlightened.

Aine, I dont know about Islam - but I can tell you that the concept of "sin" is very different in Judaism then in Christianity.
The simplest and most important example is children. Sex is a sacrament in Judaism [between a married man and his wife]. A married couple should have as many kids. Kids are considered a blessing. there is no such thing as Original sin passed through sexual encounter and onto children.
Also, you have no Devil in Judaism and no hell - so the "rules" of the concept of Sin and how it can be forgiven or not is totally different.

[Aldrick]

Short answer? Well... ok, there isn't really a short answer... Taiyo_no_miko summed it up pretty well, but left out one important thing. Jesus was (according to scripture) sinless. And so he was the only sacrifice "worthy" of God. He didn't have to do it, but chose to because of his love for humanity. That's the basic mainstream Christian belief.

Christianity isn't the only "sin" centered religion, Judasm and (I believe) Islam are as well. Buddhism isn't sin-centered per se, however they do believe that the current world is an illusion and that only through proper training can one escape and become enlightened.

I'm sorry...

What scripture state's that it was his choice? That he wanted to or that he did it because of his love for us.

What I got from his "Father why have you forsaken me" was pretty much his love for his-own life rather then helping us out by becomming a Martyr. I mean...from that I personally got "Father, wtf...come get me off this cross. I'm your son and you're going to let me die?"

But...what do I know. I guess Jesus was just asking why he didn't die more painfully or sooner.... Yeah..maybe that's the forsaking he meant.

Jesus was no less fallible or sinful then any-other man or woman. No-where was it stated that he was perfect, that's God. Although God's only 'perfect' because he's 'above' all of the sin's he's set out for us...

[charmedkisses1]

I'm not an expert, but here's something I found...


Spirituality is a big accomodating basket into which you can put almost anything you want to feel about 'the higher power', or 'spiritual force' or 'your own little voice' or whatever you call whatever it is that makes you feel better. Spirituality is vague and undemanding.
Spirituality can include such things as occult, fortune telling, a belief in 'a higher power', a belief that if God made us, we are all gods, etc.

Christianity is different. It is based on a belief not just in God, but in Jesus Christ his son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is demanding. He insists that if you chose to follow him, you do just that, putting all other 'idols' aside.

Many people 'believe' in God. The bible says that even Satan and his demons believe in God. That is not enough.

Being at peace with God is not automatic - because by nature we are separated from God. This separation is the 'something wrong' that is at the root of mankinds' selfishness, lonliness, anger, pride, stubborness, etc, etc. It is why there are wars, and people do terrible things, it is why people lie, steal, cheat, swear, fight, etc.

Through many immoral and amoral acts, thoughts and attitudes, we continue to grieve the One who cares for us the most. That is all of us! (no matter how upright or good we seem on the outside). This has caused a split between us and God. This split or separation is called sin.

So basically in Christian beliefs; his sacrifice was a trade-off for those who didn't want to be separated from God bc of human sinful nature. And that's why Jesus is their Savior.

[charmedkisses1]

I'm sorry...
Although God's only 'perfect' because he's 'above' all of the sin's he's set out for us...

LOL

In Christian myth, God gave Adam and Eve a choice; don't eat and be happy (ignorance is bliss), or eat and know all the pain, suffering, knowledge of good and evil in the world or what it would become. So in their beliefs it was human's fault (brought on by the nagging of a certain loudmouth)

[Aldrick]

LOL

In Christian myth, God gave Adam and Eve a choice; don't eat and be happy (ignorance is bliss), or eat and know all the pain, suffering, knowledge of good and evil in the world or what it would become. So in their beliefs it was human's fault (brought on by the nagging of a certain loudmouth)

True. However through the commandments and the Seven Sin's of Humanity God openly states himself as a Jealous god. Well..if Pride and the such are sin's for human's to hold..God has just placed himself above any mortal sin.

So obviously no-one would/could live up to his standards unless they were origonally apart of him. (IE: the Trinity; Father/Son/Holy Spirit) Which would entail that the only infallible people would be God's or incarnations...however no matter how good someone is, or how much they could percieve themselves to be doing right..if God were to say "No.." then that's how it is. And since we ARE fallible..there is no way for us to meet the standards of a 'perfect' being.

[charmedkisses1]

True. However through the commandments and the Seven Sin's of Humanity God openly states himself as a Jealous god. Well..if Pride and the such are sin's for human's to hold..God has just placed himself above any mortal sin.

So obviously no-one would/could live up to his standards unless they were origonally apart of him. (IE: the Trinity; Father/Son/Holy Spirit) Which would entail that the only infallible people would be God's or incarnations...however no matter how good someone is, or how much they could percieve themselves to be doing right..if God were to say "No.." then that's how it is. And since we ARE fallible..there is no way for us to meet the standards of a 'perfect' being.
Duh. :D lol here's some more...

Because He loves us, God cannot stand to allow this separation or sin. But because He is perfect, he cannot allow our sin to go unpunished without ceasing to be perfect because He would then cease to be God. The sin-bill must be paid. Religion and good living cannot pay it.
They believe perfectionism is impossible, hence the needing a savior. O and that's aslo why many Christians believe Mormonism is NOT the same; Mormons believe if you are really really good and believe in Jesus you can become a god/dess. meh too tired for this talk! :zzzzZZZ:

[Morr]

True. However through the commandments and the Seven Sin's of Humanity God openly states himself as a Jealous god. Well..if Pride and the such are sin's for human's to hold..God has just placed himself above any mortal sin.

So obviously no-one would/could live up to his standards unless they were origonally apart of him. (IE: the Trinity; Father/Son/Holy Spirit) Which would entail that the only infallible people would be God's or incarnations...however no matter how good someone is, or how much they could percieve themselves to be doing right..if God were to say "No.." then that's how it is. And since we ARE fallible..there is no way for us to meet the standards of a 'perfect' being.

i agree.
the very concept of being good and going to heaven, according to christianity - is probably the hardest things to do for a person, since every single thing that defines a human as a human - is considered sin.
7 deadly sins - are something that each human posses within them, its part of human nature. You cant just repress all of these, it would make a person go crazy. Either that, or the person would have to be physically and emotionally numb - And that, in my opinion, is as good as being dead.

And in that sense, God is a hypocrite because he himself stated that he is a jealous and angry God -
If youre an angry & jealous God, why cant humans express themselves in the same manner (anger/jealousy)?

Its true - TOO MUCH of each of the 7 deadly sins, CAN ruin a person's life in general. But they cannot be whiped out. And a bit of each is even healthy because these are tools that a person has that help him (for better or worse) deal with life.

[Spiritcalf]

See back when I use to be Christian the church had me scared to death since I was boy that I was a sinner and I was going to Hell, yet with the same breath they talked about mercy and that we are created in his own image. That bugged the "hell" right out of me.

If we are created in his own image than why are we sinful and he has none.

God gave us free will. Does that not mean you can live your life one way and still visit the pearly gates? I dunno, seems kinda hypocritical to me that we are him and if we sin we go to the mespotamion version of sheoul.

Also, going back to Jesus, we only know what was written about him in a book. Maybe he wasn't the son of God, ya never know. Maybe he went around in touch with himself, performing these "miracles" and rumor spread and descriptions got changed. Also, remember the bible is also a very sexist book, for all we know Jesus could have been a woman.

Oh yeah, one last little rant, what is with the christian view of Jesus being a tall white man with long brown hair? I mean come on, if he was really from where they say he was he would have been a short, olive skinned man, with short black curly hair.

[Morr]

why short?

[IvyWitch]

Oh yeah, one last little rant, what is with the christian view of Jesus being a tall white man with long brown hair? I mean come on, if he was really from where they say he was he would have been a short, olive skinned man, with short black curly hair.

Think about it....the first people to make a rendition were Europeans probably in or shortly after the Dark Ages. Do you really think they are going to paint a picture of a dark skinned man as the main figure of worship in thier culture after the crusades, no matter how wrong the image is?

[equinox2]

Holly Ariadna

I just wanted to know your opinions about why Jesus supposedly is our (Christians') Saviour? I guess I just don't understand how something HE did could have affected people 2000 years later? Is it because He told people what they should and should not do, so that we now KNOW it? I'm trying to get this a bit better...

Well, everyone else has pretty much given really good answers to the questions that have come up. My small addition to this discussion is to remind us not to underestimate the importance of Klucky’s answer in Christianity.

The basic story (as others have pointed out) is that Adam sinned by eating the fruit, and that this caused evil to enter the world and corrupt it, and so God sent Jesus (himself due to the trinity) to die as a scapegoat (Lev 16:10), so mankind can be saved.

A few of the many problems are things like “If God is supremely powerful, why did he allow evil to enter the world after Adam sinned?” or “how is punishing all of humanity for the sin of one person fair?” or “Why did God decided that eternal torture was somehow a just punishment for any sin?” and many more, some of which are here:
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJXSUM/tj4xlogical.htm

This is where Klucky’s erudite answer comes in.

Klucky wrote:

Because God said so?

-Klucky

That is pretty much the answer to any questioning of the logic behind these stories. This is reaffirmed in both the old and the new testaments:

Paul says in the book of Romans, chapter 9:


14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] …
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

I personally think this is one of the most harmful things in the Bible – that we are to blindly bow down to injustice, because God is supposed to be in charge no matter what we may think is just or fair. However, from a Christian standpoint, Klucky’s answer is the final word on this. :hailmol:

[Keith Dragon]

Jesus is considered the Christian Saviour because the Catholic Church marketed him that way. The original Christians look at Jesus as a person that showed us that we can achieve enlightenment in our lifetimes, to recieve revelation and rapture and rise into a higher form of consciousness. However, much of Jesus's teachings have been warped, and the Church of today has done through the ages much in his name, so now it is thought that Jesus actually taught these things.

Today's Christian Church actually started out as a Cult of Christianity, with warped ideals by people that were far removed from the original teacher.

This tends to happen, traditionally with religions. What happens is that a new, Charismatic teacher comes along with a new perspective on things, and in teaching it becomes popular and draws many students. However, as the number of student to the spiritual teacher grows, the people do not recieve direct consultation as to what the teacher is refering to. Thus the allegories taught to illustrate abstract concepts become to be taken as literal by those that read them or hear them from 3rd and fourth generation teachings, that is a student of the main teacher's student teaches what the original teacher taught, but doesn't quite grasp the concept because he has not had direct consultation with the main teacher, this being Jesus. So, what happens is that the allegories are taken literally, and soon, many thoughts and ideas become dogma, so as to organize the original teachings. Like the telephone game in nursery school, the original message is warped by people adding their own interpretation.

Jesus did not come to save us personally, but came to teach us how to save ourselves.

The original Christians became horified by this new Cult that began to surface with the warped teachings of Christ. The original Christians felt that we each had a direct relationship with God. They also understood that other faiths we equally as valid, however, in their view, through the teachings of Christ, that there was only one God. And by God they refered to the prime moving force of the Universe, not the Judeo-Christian God we have come to associate Jesus with.

Jesus taught that we were all God, and God was within us, and us within him. Jesus also new that this God did not have a name, nor face, nor anything our intellect could grasp within logical thought patterns. Thus, the Universe exists, so it had to be created somehow, and for something to be created, it must have a creator, and that creator is God. But not the Anthropomorphic God of the antiquated religions, but a God that was peace, that did not exist in a dualistic construct of the Catholic Church, that loved us no matter what we did, and understood that we as humans we fallable, but also that it is through our faults that we grow into pure spirit.

Jesus was "The Way", because that is what the early Christians called their spiritual path, "The Way". And "The Way", was nothing more than the path towards enlightenment. Jesus just had a better way of doing it, and being able to do it within one's current lifetime, and not over the course of thousands of lifetimes.

Jesus did not intend to create a Church, nor was he Christian. Jesus believed that dogma was not necesssary, and this is why he abandoned the Jewish faith, because all the symbolism, rituals, and laws we not necessary. You did not need to reach God through someone else, but had a direct connection with God, and "The Way" was how to connect with the Universal Consciousness. And, Truth be Known, there is only one way to connect with the Universal Consciousness, and that is to be free of the Ego. To abandon all for Love. But in Love, I do not mean puppy Dog Love, but a true surrendering of all the Darkness you carry, and letting it go.

Jesus taught that it is not the Ritual, or the Symbol, or the names of things that are important, but the intent behind all those things. Rituals, Symbols, and Names are all still only materialistic constructs that help us along The Way, but not necessarily needed. They are training wheels. They are the edge of the pool we cling to until we have the courage to tread our spiritual waters on our own, with no help. We are the body, and God is the Spiritual Water we swim in.

Jesus is my saviour, not because he was my saviour, but he taught me to be my own saviour, and become my own Christ within this Relativistic Universe.

Dragon

[Aine of the Fae]

As for the statement that Jesus wasn't a willing sacrifice? According to the Bible, specifically Mark 14:36 "Abba, Father," he {Jesus} said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." (NIV)

In other words, "Dad, I know this isn't gonna be fun, so if it's possible, could ya do it some other way? But, if not, I'll do what I have to do."

Reluctant, yes, but willing all the same.

No, people can't live up to God's standards, God is perfect and anything other than perfection in his presence couldn't stand living. But, you also have to remember than the Christian church has severely distorted the idea of forgiveness. Meaning that ALL you have to do is accept Christ as Savior and you are forgiven. Period. Now, you can change your mind and lose that forgiveness.... but if you're really in it for the long haul, you don't have much to worry about. The paranoia inspired by the churches is to keep you coming and paying (yes, I know that's cynical, I know that's judgemental and I know not all churches are like that...)

The Catholic church doesn't like the Protestants because they turned the NT against them and it was the Catholic church that compiled the Bible. I've been learning quite a bit about the Catholic church lately, clearing up some misconception and also bringing forward some glaring inconsistencies. One huge thing that people tend to dismiss, Protestants especially, is that the Catholic church is the one that compiled the Bible. They specifically chose writings that would back up their positions, their dogma. Basically the Catholic church says the are the "One True Church" because the Bible says so, however the Bible only says so because the Catholic church made it say so. It pisses the Pope off that the Protestants took that scripture, some of the very same verses used to justify the Catholic church, and turned them around to condemn the Catholic church!

Now as for the Mary worship thing. This is a big one that has been cleared up for me and I have a new and profound respect for Mary because of my studies of the Catholic church recently. I still don't agree with their views of her, specifically that she was eternally virgin, or the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, primarily because neither are necessary for Christ to fulfill his purpose, but anyway....

God chose Mary to bear His human form. While the Protestants don't like to admit this, that DOES make her special. Even if he chose her randomly, he gave her power over Him to raise Him. Parents are given great responsibility and power over their children by the Bible. And God willingly gave Mary that power. According to Biblical doctrine, she was his ONLY human parent, Joseph was his step-father, which does come with some power, but not nearly as much as Mary. Consider the relationship that a mother and child have, even outside of Biblical context. There is a deep bond there. Children are dependent on there mothers for the first few years of their lives. And I'm supposed to believe Mary wasn't special at all? God gave her total power over Him for the first years of His human life and she wasn't special?

As for the prayers to Mary and the Saints, Catholics aren't praying to them specifically, but more asking them to prayer to God for them. It's pretty much the same as asking your pastor or fellow church members to pray for you, except that Mary and the Saints are just a bit closer to God and so have more of a direct line.

[Morr]

how do we know that God is perfect, though?
I mean - define perfect.

[Aine of the Fae]

how do we know that God is perfect, though?
I mean - define perfect.

I don't know God is perfect because I can't know anything about God. However I believe God is perfect. My definition of perfect? Totally happy all of the time. Period. Are you completely happy all the time? I'm not. And it seems to me that's a pretty good goal, for every human to be totally happy all the time. I know it's probably simplistic and many people will find fault with it, but if I could be 100% happy 100% of the time, without causing anyone else to not be happy? I'd say that would be a fairly perfect life.

[equinox2]

Aine of the Fae wrote:


No, people can't live up to God's standards, God is perfect and anything other than perfection in his presence couldn't stand living.

Maybe, maybe not. As soon as we start saying things like “God is perfect” we can rapidly descend into semantics. For instance, one could finish what Aine said by instead saying “God is perfect, so he is perfectly tolerant and accepting of everything, including imperfection in his sight. Further, why wouldn’t an imperfect being be happy being in the presence of the perfect? After all, the imperfect being is imperfect, so it doesn’t have any requirements about what it can and can’t stand.” :hmmmmm:

It seems to me that a lot of the arguments like this that we hear from the Christian church can go either way – they’re just word games. :hahugh:

Keithdragon wrote:

Today's Christian Church actually started out as a Cult of Christianity, with warped ideals by people that were far removed from the original teacher.

I agree with most of what Keith had in his long post, but I think that some of it is historically unlikely, based on what evidence we have about Jesus’ life. For instance:


Jesus believed …. there is only one way to connect with the Universal Consciousness, and that is to be free of the Ego.

That sounds more like Buddhism than it sounds like something I’d expect to hear from a Palestinian Apolcalyptic Jew like Jesus. It can be hard to sort out what is likely and what isn’t likely, so if anyone is interested in learning what evidence we have, and how it might be interpreted by different scholars, in addition to the many different Christian religions that were eliminated by the Roman church by around 400 CE, I recommend these tapes:


http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6593.asp (audio form, lost Christianities)
http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/643.asp (audio form, Historical Jesus)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195141830/qid=1085748569/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6867012-7485562?v=glance&s=books (book form, $20)

If you get them on audio tape they are just $35, the same you probably spend every month on cable. Which will stoke your mind more, a month of cable or learning about these other Christianities? I found that listening to them in my car on my commute worked great.

[Aldrick]

As for the statement that Jesus wasn't a willing sacrifice? According to the Bible, specifically Mark 14:36 "Abba, Father," he {Jesus} said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." (NIV)

In other words, "Dad, I know this isn't gonna be fun, so if it's possible, could ya do it some other way? But, if not, I'll do what I have to do."

Reluctant, yes, but willing all the same.

No, people can't live up to God's standards, God is perfect and anything other than perfection in his presence couldn't stand living. But, you also have to remember than the Christian church has severely distorted the idea of forgiveness. Meaning that ALL you have to do is accept Christ as Savior and you are forgiven. Period. Now, you can change your mind and lose that forgiveness.... but if you're really in it for the long haul, you don't have much to worry about. The paranoia inspired by the churches is to keep you coming and paying (yes, I know that's cynical, I know that's judgemental and I know not all churches are like that...)

The Catholic church doesn't like the Protestants because they turned the NT against them and it was the Catholic church that compiled the Bible. I've been learning quite a bit about the Catholic church lately, clearing up some misconception and also bringing forward some glaring inconsistencies. One huge thing that people tend to dismiss, Protestants especially, is that the Catholic church is the one that compiled the Bible. They specifically chose writings that would back up their positions, their dogma. Basically the Catholic church says the are the "One True Church" because the Bible says so, however the Bible only says so because the Catholic church made it say so. It pisses the Pope off that the Protestants took that scripture, some of the very same verses used to justify the Catholic church, and turned them around to condemn the Catholic church!

Now as for the Mary worship thing. This is a big one that has been cleared up for me and I have a new and profound respect for Mary because of my studies of the Catholic church recently. I still don't agree with their views of her, specifically that she was eternally virgin, or the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, primarily because neither are necessary for Christ to fulfill his purpose, but anyway....

God chose Mary to bear His human form. While the Protestants don't like to admit this, that DOES make her special. Even if he chose her randomly, he gave her power over Him to raise Him. Parents are given great responsibility and power over their children by the Bible. And God willingly gave Mary that power. According to Biblical doctrine, she was his ONLY human parent, Joseph was his step-father, which does come with some power, but not nearly as much as Mary. Consider the relationship that a mother and child have, even outside of Biblical context. There is a deep bond there. Children are dependent on there mothers for the first few years of their lives. And I'm supposed to believe Mary wasn't special at all? God gave her total power over Him for the first years of His human life and she wasn't special?

As for the prayers to Mary and the Saints, Catholics aren't praying to them specifically, but more asking them to prayer to God for them. It's pretty much the same as asking your pastor or fellow church members to pray for you, except that Mary and the Saints are just a bit closer to God and so have more of a direct line.

No, God is not Perfect he/she/it has simply placed itself above any form of inperfection or sin. Or at least...any God/dess humanity can concieve of.

Let's break it down. Human's are fallible, they (Christians/Catholics) titled God as perfect, sinless, etc. Only one who's sinless should cast the first stone of judgement. Yet there is no truly accepted deffinition of the word perfect. Why? Because of everyone's seperate views. Meaning Perfection doesn't even exist in our minds.

Another reason for this is that we are fallible, meaning that even if we COULD create a unerversally accepted deffinition and image of perfection it also would be fallible because it is from mankind.

God is Jealous; Human sin
God is Vengeful; Human sin
God states himself above anyone else (this is something you have to read inbetween the lines for..much like asking Moses who he is to speak to God like that. Not to mention his conversations in the third person) = Pride; Human sin

Now there are more but then that would just lead into a conversation about God being Omni all, and how can an Omni figure get surprised or angry so many times, especially by his own creations, it would bring up Free Will and all of this, which wasn't the question at hand.

If anyone wishes to comment feel free to PM me, or even post it on here but remember the questions at hand (which I also somewhat veered away from)

But as for the true origonal question. Klucky nailed it..

Because your 'perfect' Omni-God said he was. And in the words of a Catholic preast I had before denouncing Catholosim at the age of 7.

"Do not ask questions child, simply believe. Why question God or the Bible, it is not for you to understand nor to question. Simply have faith, and follow God's will with no reluctance."

[~ Monk ~]

Buddhism isn't sin-centered per se, however they do believe that the current world is an illusion and that only through proper training can one escape and become enlightened.
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I would like to clarify a little bit on the above.

I'm not going to speak for all Buddhists, but I feel I can safely say that many would work more like this: they don't believe the world is an illusion; they realize the way we perceive the world is an illusion. Also, enlightenment isn't a means of escape. Enlightenment, at least in part, is the realization that there is no "heaven" per se; there's nowhere better to escape to.

[Spiritcalf]

NUN:
I don't understand - how can you base your lack
of belief in God on the writings of Lewis Caroll?

LOKI:
Leaving 'Alice in Wonderland' aside, look closely
at 'Through the Looking Glass' - particularly 'The
Walrus and the Carpenter' poem: what's the
metaphorical meaning?

NUN:
I wasn't aware there was one.

LOKI
Oh, but there is - it colorfully details the sham
that is organized religion. The Walrus - with his
girth and good-nature - obviously refers to either
the Buddha, or - with his tusks - the lovable
Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha. This takes care
of the Eastern religions. The Carpenter is an
Obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was
purportedly raised the son of a carpenter. He
represents the Western religions. And in the poem,
what do they do? They dupe all the oysters into
following them. Then, when the oysters collective
guard is down, the Walrus and the Carpenter shuck
and devour the helpless creatures, en masse. I
don't know what that says to you, but to me it
says that following faiths based on these
mythological figures insures the destruction of
one's inner-being.

Organized religion destroys who we are or who we
can be by inhibiting our actions and decisions out
of fear of an intangible parent-figure who shakes
a finger at us from thousands of years ago and
says "Do it, Do it and I'll ****ing spank you!!"


---

That was from the begining of Dogma, just thought I would share that. Granted I belive in the God and Goddess, but that speech always makes me smile.

[Faeawyn]

Since I believe that the history of Jesus and the writings that followed can be interpretted many many different ways.....here is my interpretation...
I believe that Jesus was a great spiritual teacher. I believe he was sent by God to show man what he/she could be. He personified what humanity could be when we attain a level of enlightment. His "miracles" were things that we each try on a regular basis and refer to as "magick". Because of his level of enlightment....his closeness to God and human perfection, he was able to perform acts that we too could learn, if only we could let go of our negativities. He possessed the kindness and compassion that we as humans are supposed to aspire to.
I believe that when they say he died for our sins.....the truth is, he died for our faults, our weaknesses....our greed, jealousy, hate, etc....He was sent to show us the way....and those who were in power at the time, did not want the people following anyone else but them.....and the Christian/Catholic powers that later came to rule....wanted men to be afraid of God, to be afraid of sin...and to look to them for leadership and guidance.

[Ladyvi]

keith dragon....

bingo... to save ourselves.

the difference between being homo sapien the animal, another beast in the field. or step up and connect with the spark of divine in all of us, commune with divinity and be the sentient being we should be. christ epitomises one of the premier examples of what a human being should be for not all of us are human beings.

do we all have beastial tendencies .. sure. can we put aside these beastial nature and instinct to dare to be just a little human. oh my perish the thought. we actually might get along.

[Faeawyn]

Oh....yeah, what Keith said :lol:

[Holly Ariadna]

OMG I just finished reading all the posts and I've almost come to the conclusion that I don't want to have anything to do with religion anymore.. Everything's so contradicting!! It feels like I don't know anything anymore...

[LittlePerson]

Welcome to my state of mind Holly.:bangyourh :lookaroun :smash: :shhhh: :hmmmmm: Lol. That's how I've felt since I stopped blindly believing in Jesus as a savior and in Christianity on the whole. Hmm..

[Aine of the Fae]

Life in general is a contradiction! It makes life fun and interesting! Spirituality is a challenge, the deeper you explore the harder it gets, but the more worth it is as well!

[Ladyvi]

life is full of questions and the quest for the answers. the soul's eternal search to reach creation itself and its meaning.

[Holly Ariadna]

Welcome to my state of mind Holly.:bangyourh :lookaroun :smash: :shhhh: :hmmmmm: Lol. That's how I've felt since I stopped blindly believing in Jesus as a savior and in Christianity on the whole. Hmm..

Well thing is I DO believe in Jesus (as a savior, I don't know) and I AM Catholic (as well *lol*) but that makes it even MORE complicated... :bangyourh :smash:

[Holly Ariadna]

Life in general is a contradiction! It makes life fun and interesting! Spirituality is a challenge, the deeper you explore the harder it gets, but the more worth it is as well!

I know, but you can also see it this way: What's the point when you won't find out the answer in this lifetime anyway? :p

[Ladyvi]

why rush a good book unfolding?

[Crystal_Raye]

My beliefs on Jesus are that he was NOT God's son but a still a very good man.

Two thousand years ago you could say that you were the son of God and people believed you, nowadays they send you to the looney bin.

[Aine of the Fae]

My beliefs on Jesus are that he was NOT God's son but a still a very good man.

Two thousand years ago you could say that you were the son of God and people believed you, nowadays they send you to the looney bin.

No 2000 years ago if you said you were the Son of God, they crucified you. At least now you have a chance at survival.

[Aldrick]

lmao no. Very little has changed in 2000+ years.

Someone says they are the son of God, or an incarnation of a deity or what-be-it they would never hear the end of it. It wouldn't be possible because an infallible person will never exist, fallibility is to human, and all humans have it from birth...

Even now, the person might not be crucified but I'm willing to bet they'd probably get assassinated. Esp if they were believed and the Catholic church felt threatened. LoL

[Holly Ariadna]

But then you can see it this way: how come 2000 years later people still know about him and his teachings, if he was only "a guy who went around saying he was God's son"? Don't you think he must have done something very special to be remember and honored as he is now, such a long time after?

[Ben Trismegistus]

No, you guys are totally wrong.

If a guy today proclaimed himself the Savior of All Mankind, they'd hold an event in the US Senate building and crown that guy the new Messiah. Provided that guy had enough money, of course.

http://www.thehill.com/news/062204/moon.aspx

Coronations are not everyday occurrences on Capitol Hill — the Capitol being the people’s house, an indelible symbol of the republic, etc.

So it’s odd that a man was crowned in the Dirksen Senate Office Building earlier this year in the presence of several lawmakers and that the event is only now drawing attention.



http://www.thehill.com/photos/062204/Rev.-Moon.jpg

It appears that at least some lawmakers were drawn to the event unaware of what would happen and who would be there. Others who the organizers claim were present say they were not.

The Rev. Sun Myung Moon, former felon and current owner of The Washington Times, was the man in the spotlight, declaring himself humanity’s “savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent.”

The event, which took place March 23, was sponsored by the Washington Times Foundation and the International Interreligious Federation for World Peace (IIFWP), a Moon-led group. Present at different points during the event were Reps. Danny Davis (D-Ill.), Curt Weldon (R-Pa.), Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) and Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) and Sen. Mark Dayton (R-Minn.).

One of Moon’s claims that evening was that “Hitler and Stalin have found strength in my teachings, mended their ways and been reborn as new persons.”