Christianity Confusion

[Antoninus]

I was thinking and I had a few questions come to mind.

Jesus was born of Mary, and marry wasnt married. Back in Jesus's time (and even today) babies concieved and born out of wedlock were a SERIOUS social taboo and back then, a woman who had a baby out of wedlock could actually be killed legally by the father. So why did they skip Mary?

Second, I was watching this Discovery show on Jesus (You CAN learn from TV :)) and it said that Jesus had 4 brothers, James, Jude, Joseph and Simian. He also had 2 sisters but thier names were not recorded. Now why werent Jesus's sibblings holy in any way? Most people dont even know Jesus HAD sibblings.

[morrigen]

Mary was married to Joseph.

[Holly Ariadna]

I'm not sure about the first question, it might be because she was married to Jesus' step-father?

Second question, JESUS was sent by God, not his brother or his sisters if it is true that he had any. I suppose that would be the answer.

[Antoninus]

Ah, I havent read the scriptures at all.

But if Mary was married to Joseph, and Jesus was born of a virgin, where did Jesus's sibblings come from?

[Holly Ariadna]

Ah, I havent read the scriptures at all.

But if Mary was married to Joseph, and Jesus was born of a virgin, where did Jesus's sibblings come from?

Younger siblings? :p Half siblings from his father's side? I never even heard that he had siblings, so ya never know, might not be true.

[Antoninus]

Yeah this is the first time Ive heard of Jesus having sibblings. I dont have any other sources though, if someone could stumble across any and post them here that would be great.

But just from what I know of the time period, it seems likely that Jesus had sibblings. Back then, a woman would have as many children as she could because the life expectency wasnt very high and the family wanted many children to help with work in businesses or on a farm.

[Ron]

Those siblings are no so... the word in the scripts used is not the word for brother, sister, cousin or anything... it is a very different word -- apparently. It is often thought that they were earlier children of Joseph.

Joseph and Mary were wed in Bethlehem. They rushed there from the countryside to do so... for Mary was pregnant.

[Erebus]

Mayhaps one of you folks should READ the book you have questions about. Or maybe ask them on a CHRISTIAN site.

But for the record, Jesus's siblings are mentioned in Matthew 12:46-47. The Catholics deny the authenticity of that passage because of their belief in Mary's Perpetual Virginity.

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, first off, Mary was engaged to Joseph, got pregnant and he married her anyway (didn't have to, but he did...) So that's how that was taken care of...

Secondly, if Jesus had brothers (I believe he did) they would have been Mary and Joseph's children after Jesus birth OR they could have been Joseph's from a previous marriage.

The Catholic church maintains that Mary was an avowed virgin, Joseph was a widower who vowed to care for her in a celibate relationship and that he had children from his previous marriage. They don't deny Jesus had brothers, they just claim they were his step-brothers.

If they were Mary's children, htey would still be Jesus half-brothers, because (according to scripture) Jesus was not the son of Joseph, but the Son of God, Joseph was his step-father and Mary was his only human parent.

Think of it this way. Mary got it on with the Holy Spirit/God. She got knocked up, God left (deadbeat dad.... hey, where's the child support agency...) Joseph is engaged to Mary, says, well since you don't have anyone else.... and he marries her, raising Jesus as his own, even though Jesus isn't his own (according to scripture...) Joseph and Mary have a natural, healthy marital relationship which produces children, they being Jesus half-siblings.

As I said, the Catholic church maintains that Mary was dedicated to the Temple and that she had a vow of virginity. I don't buy that. First off, the most important thing a Jewish woman can do is have children, so a vow of virginity is meaningless in Jewish culture. Secondly, no man, and I mean NO man is going to raise the child of another man if he's not getting some. Sorry, I don't buy it. And Mary having other children certainly doesn't detract from the Holiness of Jesus. Mary didn't even have to be a virgin when Jesus was born, God could have done anything....

It's the Catholic church's aversion to sex which made Mary into the eternal virgin and denied Jesus ever married. Culturally? Mary would have been popping out babies any chance she got and Jesus would have HAD to be married. Honestly I doubt anyone would have listened to him if he wasn't married, it would have been so out of the ordinary they'd have all thought he was a nutcase!

[IvyWitch]

I think it was best said in Dogma:

"Yes, Mary gave birth to Christ as a virgin. But to believe that a married couple never got down, well that's just plain guilibility."

[Aine of the Fae]

I think it was best said in Dogma:

"Yes, Mary gave birth to Christ as a virgin. But to believe that a married couple never got down, well that's just plain guilibility."

Yup, exactly!!!

[LittlePerson]

According to the bible, Jesus did have a brother. He in fact helped him spread his message and the two were in disagreement about circumsicion between to sects of Judaism. And he helped to form a church after Jesus' death, which died out and was replaced by paul's church and today is very different from the first church of his brother. I want to say the name is James but don't quote me on that part.

[Morr]

allrighty, i see you guys want to get into technicalities here...
Lets observe the options from a none religous eyes, while accepting the fact that Mary is a "Virgin" when she had Jesus -

1) The Hebrew word for "Virgin" is "Maiden". Meaning - Simple translation confusion that totally killed the face of historical Christianity.
2) the "R" explination (so kiddies, dont read this) - Mary & Joseph were really hot for each other, but couldnt do anything about it since they werent yet married. However, they ended up getting down, but not fully (ie. not full penitration that would take her virginity away).. Yet his manly juice managed to get inside her - getting her pregnant (i DID NOT make this up or think of this by myself, this is an actual explination that I read!).
3) Mary was raped by someone - this would mean she never had sex with Joseph, yet had unfortunately concieved someone else's child without her agreement.
4) The Bible lies, they were married, got jiggy with it - and 9 months later, little baby Jesus is born.

And as for Jesus having brothers & sisters - This is true. Sorry to disappoint people out there - Joseph and Mary WERE NOT Christian.. They were Jewish. A Jewish young married couple - if they DIDNT have children, they'd be outcast. Its a Mitzvah/Sacrament for a Married couple to have as many kids as possible - Children are a blessing in Judaism. Sex between a husbend & his wife is sacred, NOT a sin like in Christianity. Also, That whole mumbo jumbo about Mary dedicating herself as a virgin to the temple and to the worship of God, etc - This concept of Temple Virgin was foreign to Jews in first century Judea. That kind of thing DID NOT happen - EVER. A woman's job was to -
1) Childhood: help her mom with the house chores.
2) Young Adulthood: Get Married.
3) Adulthood: Have kids & take care of the house.
4) Cronage: Help out with the house chores, sometimes the older woman were Midwives as well.

So yeah - its HIGHLY unlikely that she was a virgin all her life, and I'm sorry to say that its highly unlikely that she concieved Jesus without having sex. But I guess thats a question of faith, not hard core facts.

[Aine of the Fae]

According to the bible, Jesus did have a brother. He in fact helped him spread his message and the two were in disagreement about circumsicion between to sects of Judaism. And he helped to form a church after Jesus' death, which died out and was replaced by paul's church and today is very different from the first church of his brother. I want to say the name is James but don't quote me on that part.

Ok, it wasn't James and Jesus who disagreed about circumcising the gentiles, it was James and Paul. Paul is widely credited with bringing the message of Jesus to the gentiles. Whether this is accurate or not is up for debate. However, Paul never actually met Jesus, but instead had a hallucination while walking down the street one day (yes, I have problems with Paul and his twisting of what Jesus really taught, of his attempts to keep women at the level they were before Jesus and of his turning Jesus "church" into something I don't think it was ever meant to be...) But yes, James was one of Jesus' borthers.

[Aine of the Fae]

allrighty, i see you guys want to get into technicalities here...
Lets observe the options from a none religous eyes, while accepting the fact that Mary is a "Virgin" when she had Jesus -

1) The Hebrew word for "Virgin" is "Maiden". Meaning - Simple translation confusion that totally killed the face of historical Christianity.
2) the "R" explination (so kiddies, dont read this) - Mary & Joseph were really hot for each other, but couldnt do anything about it since they werent yet married. However, they ended up getting down, but not fully (ie. not full penitration that would take her virginity away).. Yet his manly juice managed to get inside her - getting her pregnant (i DID NOT make this up or think of this by myself, this is an actual explination that I read!).
3) Mary was raped by someone - this would mean she never had sex with Joseph, yet had unfortunately concieved someone else's child without her agreement.
4) The Bible lies, they were married, got jiggy with it - and 9 months later, little baby Jesus is born.

And as for Jesus having brothers & sisters - This is true. Sorry to disappoint people out there - Joseph and Mary WERE NOT Christian.. They were Jewish. A Jewish young married couple - if they DIDNT have children, they'd be outcast. Its a Mitzvah/Sacrament for a Married couple to have as many kids as possible - Children are a blessing in Judaism. Sex between a husbend & his wife is sacred, NOT a sin like in Christianity. Also, That whole mumbo jumbo about Mary dedicating herself as a virgin to the temple and to the worship of God, etc - This concept of Temple Virgin was foreign to Jews in first century Judea. That kind of thing DID NOT happen - EVER. A woman's job was to -
1) Childhood: help her mom with the house chores.
2) Young Adulthood: Get Married.
3) Adulthood: Have kids & take care of the house.
4) Cronage: Help out with the house chores, sometimes the older woman were Midwives as well.

So yeah - its HIGHLY unlikely that she was a virgin all her life, and I'm sorry to say that its highly unlikely that she concieved Jesus without having sex. But I guess thats a question of faith, not hard core facts.


Exactly! It was the Catholic/Christian church that made sex into a dirty thing! Virginity has no place in Judaism after marriage and is only held in regard for unmarried women because in earlier times the only way a man could be sure his children were his is if he knew his wife wasn't schlepping around with some other guy!!!

I laughed when I read the Catholic version of Mary's eternal virginity!!!! Women weren't dedicated virgins in the Jewish temple!!! It just did not happen! :geez:

Do I believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus? Well, it's possible. One of my best friends in high school was still technically a virgin when she got pregnant! Penetration isn't necessary for insemination, but fooling around did happen!

And, I have read, in Jewish law that only penetration counted as sexual intercourse. If penile penetration of the vagina didn't occur? It didn't count as sex! So a young coupe getting hot and heavy could actually get pregnant if ejaculation occured near the vagina!

So yes, scientifically, Mary could have been a virgin! However, I don't think it was necessary for her to be a virgin for Jesus to be the Christ. I think that is something that is highly over emphasized in the Catholic church especially and it detracts from the fact that Jesus was fully Man while fully God! And yes, I believe that, even though I don't have "proof."

[Aine of the Fae]

deleted.... double post... stupid computer...

[Antoninus]

Ok, it wasn't James and Jesus who disagreed about circumcising the gentiles, it was James and Paul. Paul is widely credited with bringing the message of Jesus to the gentiles. Whether this is accurate or not is up for debate. However, Paul never actually met Jesus, but instead had a hallucination while walking down the street one day (yes, I have problems with Paul and his twisting of what Jesus really taught, of his attempts to keep women at the level they were before Jesus and of his turning Jesus "church" into something I don't think it was ever meant to be...) But yes, James was one of Jesus' borthers.
Paul was originally Saul, he was a devout anti-christian, he killed christians, cast his vote against them when they were marked for death. The story goes, he was walking down the road to Damascus when Jesus aledgedly appeared to him and asked why Saul persecuted him, Saul asked who it was and Jesus told him his name and told Saul to go to Damascus. Saul changed his name to Paul and began to fervently spread Christianity.

And scientifically speaking, it IS possible for a woman to give birth without ever having sex. The woman has to be born with both an X and a Y chromosome, which happens to about 1 in every 10000 women. The problem is that women with this variation is that sometimes the women have ither no womb at all or thier womb doesnt function as well as a normal womb. But it IS biologically possible.

But I wonder if they would count it as "de-flowering" when Jesus was born, he had to come out of somewhere and thats blocked in a virgin so....I wonder if early Christians counted that.

[Morr]

And scientifically speaking, it IS possible for a woman to give birth without ever having sex. The woman has to be born with both an X and a Y chromosome, which happens to about 1 in every 10000 women. The problem is that women with this variation is that sometimes the women have ither no womb at all or thier womb doesnt function as well as a normal womb. But it IS biologically possible.

But I wonder if they would count it as "de-flowering" when Jesus was born, he had to come out of somewhere and thats blocked in a virgin so....I wonder if early Christians counted that.

so Mary was a Hermaphrodite?

[Antoninus]

No she wasnt a Hermaphrodite. But some women are born with both an X and Y chromosome and are normal females. Beyond Jesus, there arent any reported instances of a birth from a virgin, but it IS biologically possible, just mathamatically improbable

[Mab]

I think it was best said in Dogma:

"Yes, Mary gave birth to Christ as a virgin. But to believe that a married couple never got down, well that's just plain guilibility."

LOL!!! Agreed! That's such a great line, and makes perfect sense to me!

So, here's what I was raised on by my Baptist family---Jesus was born of a virgin. Joseph wigged out a bit when he found out Mary was pregnant, but believed her when she explained that it was immaculate & the baby would be the Son of God, so they just kinda went with it & got married. And yes, we always kinda maintained that the idea that a married couple (after that first baby) never had sex again & never had any other children was just terribly impractical besides the fact that Jesus' siblings are actually mentioned in the Bible, so...

I did learn, too, in the Catholic schools I went to that according to the Catholic Church (officially--but I know a lot of more liberal Catholics that don't necessarily hold with the Church's "official" stand on things) Mary lived & died a virgin & had no other children.

[Ron]

No she wasnt a Hermaphrodite. But some women are born with both an X and Y chromosome and are normal females. Beyond Jesus, there arent any reported instances of a birth from a virgin, but it IS biologically possible, just mathamatically improbable
Let's put it this way.. GOD knocked up Mary... lol ... sorry just had to.

[Antoninus]

Let's put it this way.. GOD knocked up Mary... lol ... sorry just had to.
I know that :P Im just saying there could be a biological explanation for a virgin birth

[Ron]

I know that :P Im just saying there could be a biological explanation for a virgin birth

You mean like God? God can be biological... :fprtyman2

Sorry I'm a just an ahss

[vicegerent]

Jesus was born of Mary, and marry wasnt married. Back in Jesus's time (and even today) babies concieved and born out of wedlock were a SERIOUS social taboo and back then, a woman who had a baby out of wedlock could actually be killed legally by the father. So why did they skip Mary?
- joseph, after knowing that mary was pregnant, almost condemned her until in his dream god appeared (or gabriel i'm not sure who) and told him that he should marry her and help her in raising the child jesus. god knew what the consequences if mary would have to go off in the streets pregnant without a husband...


Second, I was watching this Discovery show on Jesus (You CAN learn from TV ) and it said that Jesus had 4 brothers, James, Jude, Joseph and Simian. He also had 2 sisters but thier names were not recorded. Now why werent Jesus's sibblings holy in any way? Most people dont even know Jesus HAD sibblings.
- there were certain manuscripts of the apostles that speaks of jesus and his brothers and sister and also his relationship with mary magdalene. one of these manuscripts is the gospel of saint thomas (the doubter). they were unfortunately banned and considered as heresies by the vatican because the teachings contradict the religious org.

[Holly Ariadna]

I think it was best said in Dogma:

"Yes, Mary gave birth to Christ as a virgin. But to believe that a married couple never got down, well that's just plain guilibility."

LOL, gotta say I agree with that. :p

[Aine of the Fae]

- joseph, after knowing that mary was pregnant, almost condemned her until in his dream god appeared (or gabriel i'm not sure who) and told him that he should marry her and help her in raising the child jesus. god knew what the consequences if mary would have to go off in the streets pregnant without a husband...


- there were certain manuscripts of the apostles that speaks of jesus and his brothers and sister and also his relationship with mary magdalene. one of these manuscripts is the gospel of saint thomas (the doubter). they were unfortunately banned and considered as heresies by the vatican because the teachings contradict the religious org.

The early Catholic church banned anything and everything that didn't fit in the neat little box they called the Christian religion.

I don't like neat little boxes, I tend to step on them, rip them apart, and then look at everything around them :D

[Ben Trismegistus]

For me, this is just further evidence that Jesus's TRUE origins were lost to history, and that the entire story of the Virgin Birth was fabricated later, in order to make Jesus's story jive with the OT prophecies, specifically Isaiah. In fact, the earliest written gospel (Mark, written about 65 CE) makes no mention of Jesus's birth whatsoever. One would expect that if Jesus was going around telling everyone that he was *literally* God's Son (thus fulfilling Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, a virgin will conceive and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."), Mark would certainly have mentioned it.

Therefore, the logical explanation is that the second gospel writer, Matthew (around 70 CE), thought that the story needed more substantiation from the Old Testament prophecies, and wrote the moving story about Mary the Virgin having a son, and being visited by "magi" (no mention yet of Bethlehem or a stable -- that story is written still later, in the gospel of Luke).

But here's an interesting little quote from the first Virgin Birth story:

"And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." (Matthew 1:24-25) (my emphasis)

Kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to a Son. Says nothing about her being a virgin afterwards.

James (the apostle) is referred to as "the brother of Jesus" in the Bible. Pretty much no Christian scholars dispute that one. Additionally, there's a theory among some theologists that Thomas (the apostle) was Jesus's twin brother, because he is referred to as Thomas Didymos, or "the twin". Not sure how that would have worked though.