Would the Jewish religion still exist today if Christianity had not come about?

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok, on to the next controversial question. This one popped into my head earlier, and I have various answers trying to resolve themselves in my head, all of which are utterly contradictory of one another, but that is fairly normal for me. I contradict myself on a minute-by-minute basis :D

The question is:

Would the Jewish religion still exist today if Christianity had not come in into exist or would the Jewish religion have died out? Is the continuation of Judaism a counter-reaction to the Christians who claim spiritual descent from Judaism?

Ok, I'll give my contradicting answers later, but first I want to here yours! :caffeine:

[Shanti]

The jews and gentiles have warred throughout history. They probably would of prospered easier with one less enemy to worrie about. I would think. Not sure.

[Aine of the Fae]

The jews and gentiles have warred throughout history. They probably would of prospered easier with one less enemy to worrie about. I would think. Not sure.

But war and hatred often gives a group of people more of a "reason" to continue. If that stops, the group of people no longer have anything uniting them and so tend to slowly disappear.

[Shanti]

But did they not have other enemies that would of kept them united? Its possible that some other enemy would of replaced the gentiles. Yes?

I Have a hard time visulizing conflict as a reason to stay united in faith. So I am having a hard time with this thought line.

[Aine of the Fae]

But did they not have other enemies that would of kept them united? Its possible that some other enemy would of replaced the gentiles. Yes?

I Have a hard time visulizing conflict as a reason to stay united in faith. So I am having a hard time with this thought line.

Certain Islamic extremists use conflict and hatred as a reason to stay united in faith, however I don't think that would really apply to Judaism. While the main Jewish scriptures aren't exactly what you'd call peaceful, for the most part the Jewish people are peaceful.

However my line of thinking went something like this:

Judaism seemed to have been starting to fade around the time of Christ, they didn't have any real power, that was all in the hands of the Roman rulers of the time. The Christian cult came around (and yes, early Christianity was a cult.... all religions are...) anyway, the early Christians came around and they were basically in direct opposition of traditional Judaism, at least the Pauline Christians were. Peace, tolerance, Jew and Gentile eating at the same table, out with the Law, in with the new covenant.... Basically completely uprooting the traditional Jewish way of life. Within 40-50 years of Yeshua's death the Temple had come down, only one wall remaining to this day, and so the system of sacrifices was no longer in place. So what kept the Jewish people together? They had no center of worship anymore, they had no real homeland until just this past century. They were persecuted and tortured, millions of them killed in WWII and in the centuries before that. The Jewish people were ridiculed and tormented, just for a chance of birth, and yet they persisted for thousands of years! Not only did they persist, they flourished. They developed their faith even further, the Rabbis writing the Talmud, and developing the Kaballah among other things. They survived and came to America where they enjoy a great deal of freedom and, finally, they have Israel, a sovereign nation, recognized by most other nations, and protected by a top notch air force and treaties galore.

Why did they survive? What about the Jewish faith has caused it to persist so long?

I'm perplexed by how any religion can survive, however Christianity has a very, very organized center, mainly Catholicism, that kept it going for over 1000 years, and then the reformation, however most denominations still are very much organized. I'm not sure about Islam, and the center/organization there, however it's not as old as Christianity, nor is it nearly as old as Judaism.

Buddhism is roughly organized, the Dalai Lama being the center of organization there.

But what about Judaism? Is there a central figure keeping it together? Like the Pope or the Dalai Lama? If not, what has helped it to persist for so long?

Hey, Morr??? Where are you when I need some answers to my perplexing questions???? :D

[TYRRHENUS]

Would the Jewish religion still exist today if Christianity had not come in into exist or would the Jewish religion have died out?Yes it would still exist.
Is the continuation of Judaism a counter-reaction to the Christians who claim spiritual descent from Judaism?No. Perhaps we should ask ourselves what in the world Christianity has to do with Judaism. Christianity is radically different from Judaism and any other faith which preceded it. The only thing the two have in common has been a number of people over the last 1,800 years or so who have IMPOSED a connection. Those who have insisted that Christianity is descended from Judaism. Early Christians who, for very practical reasons irrelevant to this discussion, compiled the New Testament with the Old, gave them such names, and claimed that the two are inseparable. (See Marcion's Gospel.) Or southern fundamentalists here in America who profess these delusions of using Jews to exterminate the Palestinians, where they will then remove the Zionists from Palestine and create a "New Jerusalem," thereby preparing the way for the second coming. For them, the "association" or "relationship" between Christianity and Judaism is solely a matter of convenience. One which I am certain they will be drop when and if they ever realize their goals. Much in the same way St. Augustine held that Rome was of no value other than to form a cadre of recruitment for his City of God (Civitas Dei).

The following is not meant as an insult, but rather should be taken as personal awe of the faith, and I can think of no other way of putting it... and that is; Judaism is an anomaly. The ethos are very much those of the Religio Romana (and not Christianity) in that Judaism is what is called a tribalistic religion. Yet at the same time it is monotheistic. Which is historically an odd combination. (See The Oxford History of Christianity. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press(1993), p. 23.) The worldview of the faith is confined within cultural binoculars. "What is it to be a Jew?" That's a question you'll hear a lot. As well as statements such as "Judaism is not a religion, it is a race." Or even, "We are a people." Tribalistic religions such as Judaism place the good of the tribe (משה) over that of the individual. Christianity's drive was and is the spirituality of the individual. Christianity preached to all Romans; patrician, plebian and slave alike. Judaism, on the other hand, preaches to the choir. I don't think there has ever been a "Jewish missionary." This is why the faith has "survived." - A very ancient focus on "the tribe."


Within 40-50 years of Yeshua's death the Temple had come down, only one wall remaining to this day, and so the system of sacrifices was no longer in place.Josephus places this at 36 years, and he knew better than we do. Anyway, I disagree with the statement that the Jewish people have "flourished." If anything, they have remained stagnant, for lack of a better word. Their numbers in Europe just before World War II was the same as during the Jewish Rebellion of 69 AD. (See Chaim Bermant. The Jews. New York: NY Times Books (1977), p. 20. & A. Daniel Frankforter. A History of the Christian Movement; Chicago: Nelson-Hall (1978), p. 49.) So the Jewish faith was not in the decline by the time of Christ. This timelessness, and their survival are a direct result of the tribalistic tendencies found in the faith.

[Djiril]

I think Judaism would still exist today with or without Christianity. However, I think it would be a different religion in ways that I don't have enough information to imagine. Christianity has had an influence on Judaism over the years that goes way beyond opposition. Some of the ideas of Christianity have rubbed off on Judaism, and Christianity being the dominent religion in many places throughout the world has probably shaped Jewish thinkers throughout the centuries in other ways.

When you get down to it, it is hard to imagine a world without Christianity since it has had such widespread influence on everything. Islam might not even exist without Christianity. The Koran wouldn't say the same things anyway!

[Djiril]

Perhaps we should ask ourselves what in the world Christianity has to do with Judaism.
Jesus was Jewish, and the religions share an entire holy book! How big a connection do you need?

Or am I missing something?:huh:

[Morr]

why WOULDNT it be around today

believe me - it would still be around today... no reason not to... Christianity presents absolutely no problem whatsoever to the jewish religion with or without its existance... after all the prosecutions in the past done by the church - judaism survivied - i see no reason why it wouldnt survive WITHOUT such prosecutions in the past...

[Aine of the Fae]

:D I'm glad you're around Morr, you always give me a new perspective on things, a new way of thinking of things.

[Morr]

:D I'm glad you're around Morr, you always give me a new perspective on things, a new way of thinking of things.


glad to be of service :D

also, i think the true question at hand is -
if Judaism wasnt around, would Christianity ever exist?

[Aine of the Fae]

glad to be of service :D

also, i think the true question at hand is -
if Judaism wasnt around, would Christianity ever exist?

That's a good question.

Answer: probably not. Yeshua was Jewish, his teachings, while not necessarily orthodox, were Jewish. Perhaps if Judaism hadn't existed we'd all be Buddhists?

[LittlePerson]

It's still around and would still be around if the christians hadn't proclaimed jesus the messiah and formed their cult. I think they'd even be happier and perhaps still polytheistic too.

[Aine of the Fae]

I doubt they'd still be polytheistic. They were monotheistic LONG before Yeshua ever came around.

[TYRRHENUS]

Jesus was Jewish, and the religions share an entire holy book! How big a connection do you need?

Or am I missing something?:huh:Well, I've said what I wanted to say concerning the Bible, but in response to your question... I don't even know that Jesus was Jewish.

Was Jesus born to a Jewish mother? Yes.
Was Jesus raised Jewish? Yes.
Was he a rabbi? Yes.
Most importantly, was his soul Jewish? No!

Jesus was God, ergo, beyond ethnicity. The circumstances of his physical origins are merely superficial elements of Christian mythology and are quite useless. Like Jupiter sporting a beard or Minerva wearing a helmet, as Cicero once wrote.

Cheers to Aine for the interesting thread, btw.

[FaerySong]

I don't see why it wouldn't, Christianity borrowed some from Judaism, as Jesus was Jewish. It may have developed differently if some of what happened in the past between Christians and Jews had not taken place.

[coyoger]

I beleive it would. The Jewish people are real stong on passing on their beleifs to the next generation.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Was Jesus born to a Jewish mother? Yes.
Was Jesus raised Jewish? Yes.
Was he a rabbi? Yes.
Most importantly, was his soul Jewish? No!
As my mother is fond of saying, your first criteria there is all that is necessary to be Jewish.

It's one thing to say that for the purposes of the Christian religion, Jesus began a faith that was entirely new and different from Judaism. Christianity today, after all, bears little resemblance to the Judaism out of which it grew.

However, none of us can really speculate on the nature of Jesus's soul. It is often postulated that Jesus himself wanted nothing more than to return the Israelites to Judaism, to eliminate the corruption in the priesthood - and that it was Peter and Paul who hijacked Jesus's teachings and created a new religion out of them. Or, you could argue that Jesus was a Jewish reformer -- still a Jew, but a Jew interested in eliminating the unnecessary and the outdated from the Jewish belief system, such as the Kosher laws, prohibitions regarding contact between the sexes, etc.

Even if we accept that Jesus is God, the Christians still recognize the Jews as "God's Chosen People", and it's not crazy to suggest that God wanted to make his Son one of his Chosen.

*shrug* My point is that there's still plenty of room for argument here.