The Lord's Prayer

[Aine of the Fae]

I was browsing the web today and searching for different versions of the Catholic rosary prayers, as well as different rosaries to buy (don't tell my husband...)

I came across a site called Rosaries of Divine Union: Rosaries for the Contemplative Dimension of Prayer (http://www.livingrosaries.org/index.htm). This was quite perfect because I'm working on a Christian Witchcraft class and one of the lessons is going to be on contemplative prayer. Anyway, I was reading through the various parts of the site and came across the Lord's Prayer, not out of the ordinary as that is one of the traditional prayers of the rosary. However, what struck me is that they had a translation I had never seen before, from an Aramaic version of the Book of Matthew. I believe this to be significant primarily because Yeshua spoke Aramaic, it was the "common tongue" of his region and time. And this was a translation that even a Pagan could really, truly appreciate without having to change it!!!

First, the traditional Lord's Prayer:

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

And now the version translated not from Greek, but from Aramaic:

O Birther! Father-Mother of the Cosmos, focus your light within us—make it useful. Create your reign of unity now; Your one desire acts with ours, as in all light, so in all forms. Grant what we need each day in bread and insight. Loose the cords of mistakes binding us, as we release the strand we hold of others’ guilt. Don’t let surface things delude us, but free us from what holds us back. From you is born all ruling will, the power and the life to do, the song that beautifies all; from age to age it renews. Amen.

There is an explanation of this translation here:

http://www.livingrosaries.org/intro.htm

It's torward the bottom of the page under the heading "A second and alternate wording is offered as a translation of the traditional “Our Father”"

I'd especially be interested to here Morr's reaction to this!

[Cinnamon Girl]

OK, this is a bit of a tangent, but I've been noticing your interest in the rosary in some of the other threads and thought you might be interested in this book: Circle of Mysteries: The Women's Rosary Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936663154/qid=1090469665/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9445987-1175956?v=glance&s=books) - it's very eloquently written by a woman who used to be a nun. Her love of the rosary is obvious. :)

[Aine of the Fae]

Thank you!!

[Morr]

I never heard of this translation before.. I guess I'll have to check out that site and really look into it..
I do know that this prayer (in its popular form, not this arameic translation) is very similar to a prayer from THe Egyptian Book Of The Dead. Its an Amon-Osiris Prayer... Begins with -

"Amon Amon Who Art In Heaven...." and ends with an "Amen".

i also know that Jesus' teachings are more or less similar to a lot of teachings/passages/prayers written in the Egyptian Book of Dead, and/or taken from Egyptian Gods/Goddesses ritual practice... For example, his one saying - "Come To Me All you Who Are Burdened, and I will Refresh You", is very similar to a text written on the entrence to an Isis Temple located by the Nile in one spot in Egypt - word for word.

So I wouldnt be surprised that this new arameic translation is Pagan oriented, because Jesus himself was very influenced by the Egyptian Religous & Spiritual thought of the time, and I wouldnt be surprised if he spent time in Alexandria (while in Egypt) - which was the center of the Intelletual world at the time and included a large Jewish population as well as several Egyptian large Cults (maybe he actually originated from there, and therefore has a big egyptian influence on his teachings).

I hope this is a satisfying anser, Aine ;)

PS - I'll check out the site, if theres the original Arameic prayer written in the language, I might be able to see just how right this translation is.. It depends if its written with Hebrew Letters or with Arameic Letters...

[LacyRoze]

That is simply beautiful!! I see no reason for anyone to need to change or re-word it. Thank you for sharing ...:loveduv:

[Aine of the Fae]

Morr,

I didn't realize a lot of his teachings were similar to Egyptian ones. That's very interesting, although not all that surprising. Rembember, according to the NT accounts, after Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt to escape Herod's persecution. Jesus spent his very early formative years there before returning to Jerusalem around the age of 10 or so. Then from 12 to 30 he was elsewhere, and where he was is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. However he already had a fairly thorough education by the time he was 12, as evidenced by the incident of his preaching in the temple!

[calria]

So I wouldnt be surprised that this new arameic translation is Pagan oriented, because Jesus himself was very influenced by the Egyptian Religous & Spiritual thought of the time, and I wouldnt be surprised if he spent time in Alexandria (while in Egypt) - which was the center of the Intelletual world at the time and included a large Jewish population as well as several Egyptian large Cults (maybe he actually originated from there, and therefore has a big egyptian influence on his teachings).

Of course he did... he grew up there! Didn't come back into Judea for several years, until Herod died. yes, he was young (I think it's like from age 2-3 til age 5 or so? Someone correct me...) but he did spend some time living as an Egyptian.

Oh, and Aine, I love that translation... Think I might start incorporating that into the things I do... I've been missing the Christian tenets even though I'm not adherant to the beleifs themselves, but that version I can really work with.

[Aine of the Fae]

That is simply beautiful!! I see no reason for anyone to need to change or re-word it. Thank you for sharing ...:loveduv:

I thought so too!!

[Ben Trismegistus]

Here's another interesting site with several translations of the Lord's Prayer directly from the Aramaic:

http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

This direct translation is my favorite:


Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Let Your will come true - in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense).
Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others.
Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), but let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.


Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
(I confirm with my entire being)

[Aine of the Fae]

I think that so much meaning, and feeling, has been lost in the translations to English. English is such a brutal language and it is difficult to convey spiritual meanings in English. Thank you for the link Ben!

One of my next "goals" is to begin studying the Bible in the original language, as well as study some of the other "books" that never quite made it to the Bible for various reasons.

[equinox2]

Aine of the Fae wrote-


Rembember, according to the NT accounts, after Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt to escape Herod's persecution. Jesus spent his very early formative years there before returning to Jerusalem around the age of 10 or so. Then from 12 to 30 he was elsewhere, and where he was is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. However he already had a fairly thorough education by the time he was 12, as evidenced by the incident of his preaching in the temple!

Except that this is unlikely to be actually true. We only have any mention of Jesus as a child in Mt and Lk - the entire rest of the bible has no mention of it. The acconts in Mt and Lk are contradictory, and each appears to be made up to fulfill OT prophecies, in addition to the fact that they contain aspects are are historically very unlikely. Take the idea of a "census where everyone has to go to the home of their distant ancestor". Can you imagine the massive migrations of people? And who would know where to go? Where would you go? I suppose I have some German ancestry and some Native American ancestry, but??? :whatmewor

Besides, this isn't mentioned in Roman records, and they kept pretty good records. There are plenty of other historical impossibilities in those stories too.

It seems much more likely that the lord's prayer was adapted directly from the Egyptian book of the dead - Jesus may have had little to do with it. It still can be a good and useful prayer regardless of how we got it.

Blessed be-

[Aine of the Fae]

The reason for the trip to Egypt may be suspect, however that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As far as a census, one was known to have been taken, and "going to your ancestors" home wouldn't be difficult for the Jewish people who so zealously protect their bloodlines. They would have known EXACTLY where their ancestors homes were, they didn't have the "heinz 57" cultural background that we have today.

[equinox2]

We can't just assume it happened because it is in the Bible- we have to balance the evidence, and go with what seems most likely.

Over time some Censuses were taken now and then, just to count the people, but none – according to the roman records of the time – ever required everyone to go to the home of their distant ancestor. Even if everyone knew where to go, how could you possibly handle the logistics of the crowds of people?

The Romans wanted two things: 1. no uprisings, and 2. collecting taxes. The tax collectors didn’t care who you were or where you were from, so the Romans certainly wouldn’t have wanted to cause such a mess, especially when they knew many Jews weren’t happy subjects. Most importantly, how could any historian neglect to mention such a huge migration? Yet, no mention by any historian. No historian of the day mentions herod killing all the children under 2 either, even though some historians (such as Josephus) go into great detail listing all the bad things herod did. They would have loved to get that one, but it looks like it was made up later, again to fulfill prophecy.

There are plenty of other problems with the stories in Mt and Lk. For one, Lk 2:1 says the Quirinius was the governor of Syria when Jesus was born. But historians know that he didn’t become governor until 6 CE, after Herod had died. For Herod to be alive (and much more so to order all children under 2 be killed) makes Luke’s story implausible if Luke 2:1 is to be true also.

Even if you went so far as to ignore all history and scholarship, and pretend that the Bible was literally true in every detail, then you still have to resolve the differences and omissions between Luke and Mt. Why doesn’t Luke mention the wise men? Not important enough? Pretending that these things actually happened is the same as accusing both gospel writers of not telling the whole truth. There are many other cases like that – just list what each gospel says, and you’ll see that the stories have little in common. Where is Joseph & Mary’s home town? Again, it appears to be different.


There are plenty of good things in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean that everything in there is good, and it certainly doesn’t mean that we should pretend everything in the Bible is literally true, or that the different books agree with each other.

[Aine of the Fae]

Ok equinox2, I don't think the Bible is literal, I was simply proposing a possibility for why the Lord's Prayer is similar to Egyptian prayers. This thread was to show that a lot of the misunderstandings about the meaning of Christianity come from how things are translated.

[Shanti]

Sometimes the least likely is where the truth actually lays.

Just a thought! :)

And those prayers are beautiful. They seem to be more moving than the english version that is used today.

[equinox2]

Hi Aine of the Fae-

Yeah - things can certainly be lost in translation, and there are other examples too. I'm not trying to argue that the Lord's prayer isn't good, and certainly not arguing that it isn't very useful for many people, regardless of what version one uses. :colorful:

Have a wonderful day-

[Morr]

actually, Jesus was most likely living in egypt for a long period of his life... and probably not from when he was a baby for the simple reason that King Harod never issued a warrent to execute all the new borns/babies in Beth Lehem - therefore, Joseph and Mary had no reason to run away to Egypt.

This story was added by the gospel writers to "fullfill" some sort of prophacy which they, again, hijacked from random parts of the OT..

My best bet would be that within the "missing years", he was living in Egypt - learning the old Egyptian religion & taking part in the cult of Isis & Osiris.

[Merlinawakend777]

I never heard of this translation before.. I guess I'll have to check out that site and really look into it..
I do know that this prayer (in its popular form, not this arameic translation) is very similar to a prayer from THe Egyptian Book Of The Dead. Its an Amon-Osiris Prayer... Begins with -

"Amon Amon Who Art In Heaven...." and ends with an "Amen".

i also know that Jesus' teachings are more or less similar to a lot of teachings/passages/prayers written in the Egyptian Book of Dead, and/or taken from Egyptian Gods/Goddesses ritual practice... For example, his one saying - "Come To Me All you Who Are Burdened, and I will Refresh You", is very similar to a text written on the entrence to an Isis Temple located by the Nile in one spot in Egypt - word for word.

So I wouldnt be surprised that this new arameic translation is Pagan oriented, because Jesus himself was very influenced by the Egyptian Religous & Spiritual thought of the time, and I wouldnt be surprised if he spent time in Alexandria (while in Egypt) - which was the center of the Intelletual world at the time and included a large Jewish population as well as several Egyptian large Cults (maybe he actually originated from there, and therefore has a big egyptian influence on his teachings).

I hope this is a satisfying anser, Aine ;)

PS - I'll check out the site, if theres the original Arameic prayer written in the language, I might be able to see just how right this translation is.. It depends if its written with Hebrew Letters or with Arameic Letters...have you read the aquairian gospel? if not i am sure ou will find it an interesting read, i havent read it all as all i have access to is the online version, but what i have read has been really interesting, fictional or real, not for sure, but interesting none-the-less

[Aine of the Fae]

Anything that mentions "the Akashic Records" immediately tends to turn me off. *shrugs* Persona preferance I guess.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Anything that mentions "the Akashic Records" immediately tends to turn me off. *shrugs* Persona preferance I guess.
What about the "collective unconscious"?

[Aine of the Fae]

What about the "collective unconscious"?

:LOL: okay, ya got me Ben... Actually my problem with the "Akashic Records" is that in my experience it tends to be some really, really wierd people bringing them up.... *shrugs* guess I'm just funny that way.

[dragenfly]

Anything that mentions "the Akashic Records" immediately tends to turn me off. *shrugs* Persona preferance I guess.
Hi I saw this post reading through the thread and I have to ask why? I am just now reading a great book on astral travel and the Akashic Records are mentioned quite frequently. I wanted to know why you felt that way. Please share.

[Aine of the Fae]

Hi I saw this post reading through the thread and I have to ask why? I am just now reading a great book on astral travel and the Akashic Records are mentioned quite frequently. I wanted to know why you felt that way. Please share.

I guess it's based on personal experience, or lack of it. What I've read of the Akashic Records comes from people who could, at best, be described as fluffy new agers. They tend to mix and match there beliefs and references without regard to the historical significance, and they try to change history to suit their needs. They "rembember" in "visions" and "dreams" that things were "different" than recorded, and that we've got it all wrong. It's just a personal problem I have, and I don't mean to say that the "Akashic records" are wrong, or don't exist, I just tend to look elsewhere when it comes to spirituality.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I guess it's based on personal experience, or lack of it. What I've read of the Akashic Records comes from people who could, at best, be described as fluffy new agers. They tend to mix and match there beliefs and references without regard to the historical significance, and they try to change history to suit their needs. They "rembember" in "visions" and "dreams" that things were "different" than recorded, and that we've got it all wrong. It's just a personal problem I have, and I don't mean to say that the "Akashic records" are wrong, or don't exist, I just tend to look elsewhere when it comes to spirituality.
For the record, I don't disagree with you. The reason for my question was because I was wondering if you objected to the idea itself, or to the connotations of the term. I personally believe in Jung's "collective unconscious", but tend to avoid referring to it as the "Akashic record". In my case, it's a matter of being more familiar with the former than the latter.

[dragenfly]

I guess it's based on personal experience, or lack of it. What I've read of the Akashic Records comes from people who could, at best, be described as fluffy new agers. They tend to mix and match there beliefs and references without regard to the historical significance, and they try to change history to suit their needs. They "rembember" in "visions" and "dreams" that things were "different" than recorded, and that we've got it all wrong. It's just a personal problem I have, and I don't mean to say that the "Akashic records" are wrong, or don't exist, I just tend to look elsewhere when it comes to spirituality.
I totally get where you are coming from. I tend to believe that whats written is what might have happen. I spoke with an exchange student once back when I was in high school granted that was forever ago, but it bears mentioning. He told me that in Russia the history books were written so that their country won every war/conflict and they were the most powerful nation. (This was in 1992 the student was raised in Russia and moved to Germany when he was 13, he was 17 when I met him) These people grew up thinking it because thats what was taught in their school books. Dont you think that maybe just a little somewhere down the lines that history has been changed here and there to suit the needs of the person in power at the time. That what we read today about our history are sometimes hald truths. I am always struggling with this idea. You seem so sure. And me well I am so unsure ya know. :hugz:

[Aine of the Fae]

I totally get where you are coming from. I tend to believe that whats written is what might have happen. I spoke with an exchange student once back when I was in high school granted that was forever ago, but it bears mentioning. He told me that in Russia the history books were written so that their country won every war/conflict and they were the most powerful nation. (This was in 1992 the student was raised in Russia and moved to Germany when he was 13, he was 17 when I met him) These people grew up thinking it because thats what was taught in their school books. Dont you think that maybe just a little somewhere down the lines that history has been changed here and there to suit the needs of the person in power at the time. That what we read today about our history are sometimes hald truths. I am always struggling with this idea. You seem so sure. And me well I am so unsure ya know. :hugz:

The whole "history is written by the victors..." While that may be true, there is only so much that I'm willing to believe. And some of the ideas attributed to the Akashic records are just, well... out there. Atlantis? Lemuria? Until I see proof, actual proof, I find it hard to believe. And the proof doesn't necessarily have to be huge, just enough to convince me.

[dragenfly]

The whole "history is written by the victors..." While that may be true, there is only so much that I'm willing to believe.
Me too.

And some of the ideas attributed to the Akashic records are just, well... out there. Atlantis? Lemuria? Until I see proof, actual proof, I find it hard to believe. And the proof doesn't necessarily have to be huge, just enough to convince me.
I agree with that as well but I like to stay open minded to all things. Blessed be Aine of the Fae. :chatty:
Something we were witholding made us weak;
until we found it was ourselves.

Robert Frost (1874-1963)

[dragenfly]

For the record, I don't disagree with you. The reason for my question was because I was wondering if you objected to the idea itself, or to the connotations of the term. I personally believe in Jung's "collective unconscious", but tend to avoid referring to it as the "Akashic record". In my case, it's a matter of being more familiar with the former than the latter.

Dreams are the facts from which we must proceed.
C.G. JUNG (1875-1961)