Clergy and the general Neo-Pagan Community

[MorningDove030202]

I've been thinking about the issue of "Clergy" and their role in the Neo-Pagan society. I see more and more traditions (usualy Wicca) making a distinction between Clergy and Non-Clergy.

Do you think there should be Clergy? What would a ClergyPerson do? (a job description) Would they have a role outside their tradition in the greater Neo-Pagan Community. Should they be paied? What about education? What about Clergy people of differing traditions, should there be some common sets of standards set up so that we know that a First Degree of ABC Tradition is equal to a First Degree of XYZ Tradition? Should clergy people of differing traditions unite and work together to provided needed services to the general Neo-Pagan community?

I'd love to hear some opinions, and then I'll share mine.

Dove

[Shanti]

What clergy do you speek of? I am a member of the clergy but paganism's in my area, along with all others. I am non-denominational.

I dont preach any one religion or belief. I dont preach. My concern is with spirit and people. I believe we all have a spirit which will guide us and my concern is that people who seek truth find and follow their own spirit and look to their heart for answers as to what is right and good for them.

As for getting paid, if you are offering a service, you need to live, to so yes they should get paid but also help the people who dont have money.
I dont offer services for pay so I dont make any money. But if I am asked to help someone, I do it for free as I dont need to charge anyone at this time. But I am just beginning my quest.

I do dream of setting up a learning center (for all people of all faiths) and a place to go for help but thats a dream for the future as I have much to learn on my own first.

I want a place where people can go and learn about others and learn tolerance and love and to feel confidant and secure with their own beliefs.

Write now, its churches helping people but its the one faith of that church and the people are of that faith that give the help. Thats how it is in my area. And to often if you go to one of our local churches for help, you are going to get a lecture on their faith, if you dont follow it, and after your lectured, can you get things like food from the food pantry. This leaves many people in need of help going without because they dont want that lecture.

I want a place for all people to come to where people of differant faiths and even those without any beliefs help without preaching and where no one is judged. I want just people who care about people to be able to help and people who need, to feel safe to ask for it.

Its just a dream for now.

[Sibylle]

Warning: the following is my personal take on it, full of my personal issues and weirdness. LOL.

I have a deep distrust of all hierarchies, and while I encourage everyone, pagan or otherwise, to follow that which feels right for them, I personally think that all the degrees and different initiations and ordinations and whatnot are major BS. Noone I've met in my 34 years has been able to convince me that there's any way of accurately evaluating or measuring spiritual evolvement or power. Starhawk once said trying to measure that is like trying to measure a cloud with a ruler, and why I don't agree with everything Starhawk says, she has a point there.

Once again: this is MY take on it. I'll stay away from all those systems, but if they make you happy... feel free :)

[Shanti]

Warning: the following is my personal take on it, full of my personal issues and weirdness. LOL.

I have a deep distrust of all hierarchies, and while I encourage everyone, pagan or otherwise, to follow that which feels right for them, I personally think that all the degrees and different initiations and ordinations and whatnot are major BS. Noone I've met in my 34 years has been able to convince me that there's any way of accurately evaluating or measuring spiritual evolvement or power. Starhawk once said trying to measure that is like trying to measure a cloud with a ruler, and why I don't agree with everything Starhawk says, she has a point there.

Once again: this is MY take on it. I'll stay away from all those systems, but if they make you happy... feel free :)
I find some agreement of opinion here but not all or everyone puts rank upon themselves. I dont think I am better than anyones else nor do I know more. All of life is learning. Again I think this is an example of some ruining it for others. Not all forms of clergy are bad or think they are above anyone.

[Aine of the Fae]

I am an ordained minister. Not because I think I'm better than anyone else, but because the laws of the land I live in limit what a person can and can not do, and being ordained gives me the legal ability to do more.

For instance:

I can legally perform wedding services, for free or for charge.
I can legally counsel others, religious counseling mind you, but counseling nonetheless.

And those are two huge things that many Wiccan High Priestesses cannot do because their degree is only granted by a local coven. My ordainment is through an internationally recognized non-denominational church that has gone all the way to the Supreme Court to protect their right to grant ordination. And anyone can request that ordination.

As long as you live under a government that chooses to regulate every last aspect of life, you will need clergy, no matter what religion. Even if their only role is to sign your wedding certificate.

[Shanti]

I am an ordained minister. Not because I think I'm better than anyone else, but because the laws of the land I live in limit what a person can and can not do, and being ordained gives me the legal ability to do more.

For instance:

I can legally perform wedding services, for free or for charge.
I can legally counsel others, religious counseling mind you, but counseling nonetheless.

And those are two huge things that many Wiccan High Priestesses cannot do because their degree is only granted by a local coven. My ordainment is through an internationally recognized non-denominational church that has gone all the way to the Supreme Court to protect their right to grant ordination. And anyone can request that ordination.

As long as you live under a government that chooses to regulate every last aspect of life, you will need clergy, no matter what religion. Even if their only role is to sign your wedding certificate.
Exactly!

Friends of mine are planning to get married and they want a ceremony of their own making, pagan. Being an ordained minister gives me the legal ability to make their dreams come true! Otherwise, in my area they would only have a choice of Christian minister or hiring someone from the state. We have limited options in my area.

[Aine of the Fae]

Exactly!

Friends of mine are planning to get married and they want a ceremony of their own making, pagan. Being an ordained minister gives me the legal ability to make their dreams come true! Otherwise, in my area they would only have a choice of Christian minister or hiring someone from the state. We have limited options in my area.

Yup! My husband and I are both ordained, and we've both done weddings. We are really the only kinds of people who will give a couple exactly the ceremony they want. If they want a Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Wiccan ceremony, we can do that. Might be difficult and take months of planning... but we can do that! A government official can only preside over a civil service. Traditional Christian clergy would absolutely refuse to mention Goddess in a ceremony and might refuse to wed the couple altogether.

Hubby and I have seriously contemplated putting a portfolio of services together and advertising at bridal fairs and shops as well as pagan/new age magazines. There are a lot of people who want total control over there ceremony, and most Christian churches quite simply won't allow that. You do it their way or find someone else to do it!

[MorningDove030202]

Obviously this reason is one of the most logical I have found for the ordainment of legaly recognized clergy. Perhapse in the future the government won't feel the need to regulate us as much. Untill then we have to jump threw their hoops. However, even if we didn't have to worry about legal issues, I still feel that some people will chose to make their spirituality their carrear. Wouldn we need people who dedicated their life to their path who didn't have to worry about a 9-5 mundaine job?

Dove



I am an ordained minister. Not because I think I'm better than anyone else, but because the laws of the land I live in limit what a person can and can not do, and being ordained gives me the legal ability to do more.

For instance:

I can legally perform wedding services, for free or for charge.
I can legally counsel others, religious counseling mind you, but counseling nonetheless.

And those are two huge things that many Wiccan High Priestesses cannot do because their degree is only granted by a local coven. My ordainment is through an internationally recognized non-denominational church that has gone all the way to the Supreme Court to protect their right to grant ordination. And anyone can request that ordination.

As long as you live under a government that chooses to regulate every last aspect of life, you will need clergy, no matter what religion. Even if their only role is to sign your wedding certificate.

[Shanti]

Yup! My husband and I are both ordained, and we've both done weddings. We are really the only kinds of people who will give a couple exactly the ceremony they want. If they want a Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Wiccan ceremony, we can do that. Might be difficult and take months of planning... but we can do that! A government official can only preside over a civil service. Traditional Christian clergy would absolutely refuse to mention Goddess in a ceremony and might refuse to wed the couple altogether.

Hubby and I have seriously contemplated putting a portfolio of services together and advertising at bridal fairs and shops as well as pagan/new age magazines. There are a lot of people who want total control over there ceremony, and most Christian churches quite simply won't allow that. You do it their way or find someone else to do it!
I think there is a very big need for non-denominational clergy that allows people to be free to express their beliefs in their own ceremonies. So many get stuck with just a civil ceremony and no spiritual aspects because of the lack of available clergy.
I am the only one in my whole area that can do that. We need more out there. And the laws make it where you have to be an active memember of a clergy, hence an ordained minister, in order to preform legal spiritual weddings so the clergy is indeed needed.

[MorningDove030202]

I aggree, there isn't a good way to measure skill, outside of a tradition. I can see how inside a tradition it would have more meaning, becuase there is a set educational standard.

I'm currently working on my First Degree with the Correllian Wiccans and when I'm done I don't expect people outside the tradition to relate to me any differently. I do feel thought that it takes a certain amount of effort to earn such degrees, it's not easy to jump threw someone else's hoops and perhapse that level of effort should be recognized. It certianly doesn't make me better than anyone, but the lesson do make me a more educated me than before.

Still, there is a difference between Clergy and someone with whatever Degree.... A clergy person serves the community with handfastings, hospital visits, prison minstry (another place where there are many legal hoops to jump threw), ministering and counciling, and teaching, and funerals...... isn't this an important duity? Should there be someone dedicated to this work that doesn't have to worry about a 9-5 job? Perhapse not now, but eventualy we will need full time clergy. Don't you think?

Dove


Warning: the following is my personal take on it, full of my personal issues and weirdness. LOL.

I have a deep distrust of all hierarchies, and while I encourage everyone, pagan or otherwise, to follow that which feels right for them, I personally think that all the degrees and different initiations and ordinations and whatnot are major BS. Noone I've met in my 34 years has been able to convince me that there's any way of accurately evaluating or measuring spiritual evolvement or power. Starhawk once said trying to measure that is like trying to measure a cloud with a ruler, and why I don't agree with everything Starhawk says, she has a point there.

Once again: this is MY take on it. I'll stay away from all those systems, but if they make you happy... feel free :)

[MorningDove030202]

I think there is a very big need for non-denominational clergy that allows people to be free to express their beliefs in their own ceremonies. So many get stuck with just a civil ceremony and no spiritual aspects because of the lack of available clergy.
I am the only one in my whole area that can do that. We need more out there. And the laws make it where you have to be an active memember of a clergy, hence an ordained minister, in order to preform legal spiritual weddings so the clergy is indeed needed.

I totaly agree, and I'm a perfect example. My husband and I were married by the court and we have decided to get handfasted on our aniversary next year. Since we are already legaly married, our friend is going to do it for us, but it would have been nice to have it done right the first time.
Dove

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

The role of clergy is much more than the ability to perform ceremonies, legal or not. I am ordained by the ULC, but it is not often that I am required to use my ordination. For me, it was a technicality. I had to have the "Rev" in front of my name to continue to run my circle according to the Air Force.

I am the leader (not HPS) of an interfaith circle whose membership varies from 1-50 people on a local AF base. As clergy, I am required to wear many hats, which include: teacher, mediator, counselor, event coordinator/planner, community example, healer, public defender, and many more.

My largest roles have been public defender and counselor. I have informally sued the USAF for religious discrimination on behalf of my group. I have been contacted by every local media and asked to speak about Paganism, and have done so sevearl times.

The members of my circle very rarely require that I use my ordination in the more traditional sense for marriages, ect. I most often act as counselor. I am available to them 24/7, no matter where they are. I get phone calls from 10 minutes away, and from across the globe. I take calls in the middle of the night, on vacation and anytime they need me. I have taken suicidal members to the hospital, talked for hours about divorce, family, and all sorts of magickal situations. I've taught cleansing/grounding/shielding over the phone at 2am. Those are the things that are needed of me.

I do the very best that I can.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Aine of the Fae]

I think you have a very good point MorningDove. I would love to be able to dedicate my life to a role as clergy person, non-denomination or interdenominational/interfaith. I want to be able to perform weddings, funerals and counseling full time. However my spirituality is a sort of in between that is not really recognized by Christians OR Pagans.

I know many Pagans don't like the idea of structured religion, it's one of the many reasons that they became pagans in the first place. However, there are some benefits to a clergy, no matter how loosely organized. There is benefit to gatherings, congregations, again no matter how loosely organized. Charity work is easier, as is publicity, countering the negative. Wedding services, funerals, prison outreach, hospital visits, and many other services that general are left to the clergy in a Christian church simply don't seem to happen in Pagan circles. And I think that is sad. Pagans have to turn to the very churches they are trying to leave behind in their times of need. How many Pagans die and have Christian funerals because there simply is no available clergy? Or worse, have no funeral at all? How many Pagans get married in civil ceremonies because their were no available Pagan clergy? I was one, and I know there are many more. How many Pagans are falling ill, dying in hospitals, with no one to share their concerns with? How many Pagans are in jail, watching the Christian clergy minister to the others, but alone, with no one coming to minister to them?

These are things that take time, a lot of time. And most of the Pagan clergy, all of them that I know, have other jobs and simply cannot take the time to do these very important things. And that's where the advantage of having dedicated clergy comes in.

I think it was Shanti who said she'd like to open a learning center, and I've had a very similar thing. It would function in a role similar to a church, but with an emphasis on personal spirituality, of consciously choosing the path you wish to walk. There would be an activity center, clergy available for counseling and other services. There would be a food pantry and clothes closet for people to come without feeling like they are going to get preached at, as happens at many Christian churches. There would be community outreach and involvement, interfaith dialogue and so much more. And it's a hard dream to have because the very people that need it the most are the ones that have been scared off from "organized religion."

[MorningDove030202]

The role of clergy is much more than the ability to perform ceremonies, legal or not. I am ordained by the ULC, but it is not often that I am required to use my ordination. For me, it was a technicality. I had to have the "Rev" in front of my name to continue to run my circle according to the Air Force.

I am the leader (not HPS) of an interfaith circle whose membership varies from 1-50 people on a local AF base. As clergy, I am required to wear many hats, which include: teacher, mediator, counselor, event coordinator/planner, community example, healer, public defender, and many more.

My largest roles have been public defender and counselor. I have informally sued the USAF for religious discrimination on behalf of my group. I have been contacted by every local media and asked to speak about Paganism, and have done so sevearl times.

The members of my circle very rarely require that I use my ordination in the more traditional sense for marriages, ect. I most often act as counselor. I am available to them 24/7, no matter where they are. I get phone calls from 10 minutes away, and from across the globe. I take calls in the middle of the night, on vacation and anytime they need me. I have taken suicidal members to the hospital, talked for hours about divorce, family, and all sorts of magickal situations. I've taught cleansing/grounding/shielding over the phone at 2am. Those are the things that are needed of me.

I do the very best that I can.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon
I totaly agree that being clergy is more than wedings and funerals. I think that ones' service to the Neo-Pagan community is more important that a certificate, but when dealing with the government the certificate is necessary. What do you think of "Full Time" clergy?

[Shanti]

I think you have a very good point MorningDove. I would love to be able to dedicate my life to a role as clergy person, non-denomination or interdenominational/interfaith. I want to be able to perform weddings, funerals and counseling full time. However my spirituality is a sort of in between that is not really recognized by Christians OR Pagans.

I know many Pagans don't like the idea of structured religion, it's one of the many reasons that they became pagans in the first place. However, there are some benefits to a clergy, no matter how loosely organized. There is benefit to gatherings, congregations, again no matter how loosely organized. Charity work is easier, as is publicity, countering the negative. Wedding services, funerals, prison outreach, hospital visits, and many other services that general are left to the clergy in a Christian church simply don't seem to happen in Pagan circles. And I think that is sad. Pagans have to turn to the very churches they are trying to leave behind in their times of need. How many Pagans die and have Christian funerals because there simply is no available clergy? Or worse, have no funeral at all? How many Pagans get married in civil ceremonies because their were no available Pagan clergy? I was one, and I know there are many more. How many Pagans are falling ill, dying in hospitals, with no one to share their concerns with? How many Pagans are in jail, watching the Christian clergy minister to the others, but alone, with no one coming to minister to them?

These are things that take time, a lot of time. And most of the Pagan clergy, all of them that I know, have other jobs and simply cannot take the time to do these very important things. And that's where the advantage of having dedicated clergy comes in.

I think it was Shanti who said she'd like to open a learning center, and I've had a very similar thing. It would function in a role similar to a church, but with an emphasis on personal spirituality, of consciously choosing the path you wish to walk. There would be an activity center, clergy available for counseling and other services. There would be a food pantry and clothes closet for people to come without feeling like they are going to get preached at, as happens at many Christian churches. There would be community outreach and involvement, interfaith dialogue and so much more. And it's a hard dream to have because the very people that need it the most are the ones that have been scared off from "organized religion."
And in the later part of your post, thats exactly why I said it is my dream, perhaps someday a reality, but at present a dream and maybe tomarrow a goal. I theres a need for sure here in my neck of the woods. And as long as theres a need, I will dream with the role of searching for the ways to make it a goal then a reality. Small steps....:)

And I agree with the rest of what you say. :)

[MorningDove030202]

There is an organization in DC called The Open Hearth Foundation, who is raising money to build a Pagan Community center..... http://www.openhearth.org/

Here is their mission: A Pagan community center initiative serving the Washington, DC region - The Open Hearth Foundation, Inc. is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization established to provide gathering space and resources for Pagans of all paths.

Is this something like your dream?

Dove :broomride

[Aine of the Fae]

There is an organization in DC called The Open Hearth Foundation, who is raising money to build a Pagan Community center..... http://www.openhearth.org/

Here is their mission: A Pagan community center initiative serving the Washington, DC region - The Open Hearth Foundation, Inc. is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization established to provide gathering space and resources for Pagans of all paths.

Is this something like your dream?

Dove :broomride

Sort of, except being a Christian Witch, mine would be entirely interfaith and not just Pagan :D

[Shanti]

There is an organization in DC called The Open Hearth Foundation, who is raising money to build a Pagan Community center..... http://www.openhearth.org/

Here is their mission: A Pagan community center initiative serving the Washington, DC region - The Open Hearth Foundation, Inc. is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization established to provide gathering space and resources for Pagans of all paths.

Is this something like your dream?

Dove :broomride My dream is a lot smaller!!!! My town with only 3000 people in it!!! We're tiny compared to DC!!!!! Gosh we only have one small Piggley Wiggley for a grocery store!
And I do not want it to be a pagan center, per say, I want it to be a spiritual center for all people.

[MorningDove030202]

Question: How does one become "non denominational clergy"?

Would a solitary get the ULC ordainment and then advertise that he or she is available for handfastings, hospital visits, healing, etc.

Couldn't you be coven trained, and then make your services available to the greater community? That's kinda what I hope to do. Don't you think that some kind of quantifiable training/licencing would be preferable, even in a mundane sence... like a mundane education in counceling, or for healing, a certified reki practioner? Even with my studdies, even if you don't know anything about the Correllians, I could show you my lessons, and my tests, and my grades.... doesn't that mean anything?

There is something to be said about a profestional trained and educated clergy, especialy when it does come to defending the faith.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

My dream is a lot smaller!!!! My town with only 3000 people in it!!! We're tiny compared to DC!!!!! Gosh we only have one small Piggley Wiggley for a grocery store!
And I do not want it to be a pagan center, per say, I want it to be a spiritual center for all people.

I duno, if you get too far into the interfaith stuff, you attract one group, which alienates another. You sound rather Unitarian Universalist...... my UU has an interfaith library open to members, but no formal classes or adult education beyond sunday services. If we had a minister (we can't aford one right now) we would have the clergy duties covered.

Dove

[Shanti]

I duno, if you get too far into the interfaith stuff, you attract one group, which alienates another. You sound rather Unitarian Universalist...... my UU has an interfaith library open to members, but no formal classes or adult education beyond sunday services. If we had a minister (we can't aford one right now) we would have the clergy duties covered.

Dove If you can afford a minister why doesnt someone within your UU group become ordained? Then that would be covered.

I dont see how interfaith can attract just one group of people. I know several people, some Christian, some pagan (of various paths) and mixes of the two who dont get involved in anything in my town because all we have are traditional based Christian only churches. Like I said my town is small and right now there isnt much choice, if any at all.

[MorningDove030202]

Well to be a UU minister you have to go to seminary school. That's at least 4 years of college, and I think the college is in California... And I don't think they would accept a ULC ordainment... otherwise I'd volunteer for the position.
Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Question: How does one become "non denominational clergy"?

Would a solitary get the ULC ordainment and then advertise that he or she is available for handfastings, hospital visits, healing, etc.

Couldn't you be coven trained, and then make your services available to the greater community? That's kinda what I hope to do. Don't you think that some kind of quantifiable training/licencing would be preferable, even in a mundane sence... like a mundane education in counceling, or for healing, a certified reki practioner? Even with my studdies, even if you don't know anything about the Correllians, I could show you my lessons, and my tests, and my grades.... doesn't that mean anything?

There is something to be said about a profestional trained and educated clergy, especialy when it does come to defending the faith.

Dove

ULC ordainment is non-denominational. Many, many solitaries are ordained through them, myself included.

I've taken the Correllian first degree class. In fact I went through the first 11 months before I decided that it really, really was not what I wanted to do, it wasn't the path for me. I still have the workbook and everything.

And honestly? I didn't learn anything new in the class. Everything that was covered was things that I had learned and researched on my own.

There is NO education for my path. In fact, I have an even harder time getting my path acknowledged than most Pagans do! So where would I go to get that proof? I'm a certified Reiki practitioner, a Master in fact. But what does that have to do with counseling? Nothing. Neither does a piece of paper. My counseling skills come from life experience. From living a very, very difficult life. At 25 I've been through more in my life than my grandparents have at 70.

And that's where I have a problem. It does become an "I'm better than you" sort of thing when you say that someone is more qualified to be clergy because they have a degree. I have a degree, in the School of Life. My degree is equivalent to about 6 Ph.D.s

[MorningDove030202]

Well you may feel that your life expereince is worth 6 ph d's but no one else has any way to quantify this, and we can't just take your word for it. So your a Reki Master, and you are certified and took classes and stuff. If you show me your certificate, and I see it's from xyz school and I look it up and I ask them is Aine a Reki Master and they say Yes, then I KNOW you are what you say your are. Also, there is more to councling than just talking to some one. All clergy people need to know something about psychology to at least know when someone has a real psychological problem and needs to see a profestional. Yes there is more to clergy than "book" learning, but I feel you still need that so that you can quantify what you know, so that others can trust that you know what you are doing/talking about. And yes, healing is something clergy can do, and reki is soemthing that is taught and certified, so it's something we can quantify. I'm not saying you have to be "Tradition Trained" or that you can't be clergy if you arn't from a specific religious organization, I'm just saying that you do need the "book" learning from some kind of acredited school, or respected group becuase it's quantifable. (sp?) Or at least more quantifyable than saying that life is worth 6 PH D.

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Well you may feel that your life expereince is worth 6 ph d's but no one else has any way to quantify this, and we can't just take your word for it. So your a Reki Master, and you are certified and took classes and stuff. If you show me your certificate, and I see it's from xyz school and I look it up and I ask them is Aine a Reki Master and they say Yes, then I KNOW you are what you say your are. Also, there is more to councling than just talking to some one. All clergy people need to know something about psychology to at least know when someone has a real psychological problem and needs to see a profestional. Yes there is more to clergy than "book" learning, but I feel you still need that so that you can quantify what you know, so that others can trust that you know what you are doing/talking about. And yes, healing is something clergy can do, and reki is soemthing that is taught and certified, so it's something we can quantify. I'm not saying you have to be "Tradition Trained" or that you can't be clergy if you arn't from a specific religious organization, I'm just saying that you do need the "book" learning from some kind of acredited school, or respected group becuase it's quantifable. (sp?) Or at least more quantifyable than saying that life is worth 6 PH D.

Dove

And I have a problem with the fact that my life experience isn't good enough. I can run circles around a good number of people who have "quantifiable" experience. I know that, and many, many people who know me know that. That is good enough for me personally, however it is not good enough for a world that is more money oriented than people oriented.

Training is not cheap, and as I said, I learned NOTHING from the Correllian first degree class and so I dropped it. When I go back to school it will be so that I can learn something new, not so I can prove what I know.

[Shanti]

You cant judge a persons ability in this area by what hangs on their wall.

You have shrinks out there that are total quacks!!!!!

Its the persons honor that counts most because, that person will admit to being only human and if they cant help you, they will do everything in their power to find you someone who can. That is a person that can be of good help.

[Shanti]

And for the record, members of the clergy are to counsel on the spiritual level and not act as psychiatrist!

[Aine of the Fae]

You cant judge a persons ability in this area by what hangs on their wall.

You have shrinks out there that are total quacks!!!!!

Its the persons honor that counts most because, that person will admit to being only human and if they cant help you, they will do everything in their power to find you someone who can. That is a person that can be of good help.


Thank you Shanti!

And if anyone would like proof of my life experience equaling 6 PhDs? I'm more than willing to share my life story and you can decide for yourself :lol:

Not to mention the fact that I can go to any number of websites, pay $35 and have a degree mailed to me with little or no effort.

Many, many pagans have problems with a system of clergy for exactly this reason. It sets up an "I'm better than you" hierarchy. In the ideal situation we wouldn't need clergy at all, we'd just help one another out. If I can't help you, I'll bet I can find someone who can sort of thing.

However, the ONLY reason I see the need for specific clergy is the fact that the U.S. government limits who can and cannot perform certain ceremonies in a legally recognized way. Period, end of story. If the government would butt out we wouldn't need clergy at all.

If you want to spend your money on fancy pieces of paper, that's fine with me. But I'm happy to read and to live life and to experience, and to spend my money on food, clothing and a roof over my head. Education should be for the purpose of personal enrichment, however it has become a way to keep the poor peope poor and the rich people rich. It's an elitist system that in no way enhances the spiritual life of anyone I've ever met.

Do you think Buddha had a degree? How about Yeshua? What about Mohammed? St. Augustine? St. Francis? No. They didn't have degrees. They were self-educated, and if it's good enough for them then it's damn well good enough for little old me. And if that's not good enough for anyone else, too bad.

[Aine of the Fae]

And for the record, members of the clergy are to counsel on the spiritual level and not act as psychiatrist!

People very often seem to forget that.

Pastoral counseling is about helping a person figure out their spirituality and how it affects their life. If there are apparent (or even inapparent) psychological issues, the clergy member is to send the person to a qualified psychologist. Unless of course the clergy member is a psychologist. Which is rare.

[Ladyvi]

i want to teach. there are so many holes in things. but then maybe my children are my envoys for the future .. who knows. me and chris have discussed at least him getting the dregree first in theology or some sort of minister certification. healing and teaching solves a lot of things. as the old proverbs. say. an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[MorningDove030202]

What I ment was that they should know enought to be able to tell people then they need to go get profestional help. I wan't implying that clergy should give the profestional help.
Dove

[MorningDove030202]

And I have a problem with the fact that my life experience isn't good enough. I can run circles around a good number of people who have "quantifiable" experience. I know that, and many, many people who know me know that. That is good enough for me personally, however it is not good enough for a world that is more money oriented than people oriented.

Training is not cheap, and as I said, I learned NOTHING from the Correllian first degree class and so I dropped it. When I go back to school it will be so that I can learn something new, not so I can prove what I know.

You have a point about wanting to go to school to learn something new, not to prove that what you already know.

But expecting people to feel that your life experience is good enough qualification is unrealistic. Everyone has life experience, that doesn't mean that everyone knows how to do grief counceling, for example. It realy has nothing to do with a "money oriented world" (though I agree the world is too money oriented). I think it has to do with being profestional. When someone goes to a clergy member for help they don't want to have to get to know you as a friend first to hear about your life experiences to decide if you know what you are talking about or not. And speaking of money, there are many scholarships available to go to mundane college to study things that would further a carear as a neo-pagan clergy person. This realy isn't about Tradition trained vs Solitary.

Now I'm not saying that you can't be clergy or that you would be bad at being clergy, but do you think further training would make you a better clergyperson?

I do, and I know enough about myself to know that I don't know enough about being clergy, which is why I'm studying in a quantifable way that others can research and decide for themselves if being a Correllian Clergy member qualifies someone for what ever sevice a person is looking for. I'd definatly take a class on "Grief counceling" at my local community college to further my ability to serve the Neo-Pagan community.

BTW, I am not talking realy talking about Traditional training, I'm also talking about MUNDANE training, like regular secular college. You do not need to focus on your less than satisfactory expereince with the Correllian online school. Witchschool.com is what I'm currently capable of doing, and as I have posted elsewhere, it's better than siting round with my thumb up my but complaining that I have no group to study with (which is what I was doing before I joined witchschool).

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

You cant judge a persons ability in this area by what hangs on their wall.

You have shrinks out there that are total quacks!!!!!

Its the persons honor that counts most because, that person will admit to being only human and if they cant help you, they will do everything in their power to find you someone who can. That is a person that can be of good help.

But wouldn't some education in the realms of councleing make a clergy person more capable of doing more help instead of having to rely on refering people to others? For instance, in the past my husband and I were looking for a marriage counceler, and well we went to one, but there were issues becuase of our religion.... It would be nice if there was a neo-pagan councler or clergy member who was trained to do marriage counceling. I don't feel that "life" gives anyone the quaifications to do marriage counceling. I would prefer to go to a profestional, especialy if I was paying them.
Dove

[Shanti]

But wouldn't some education in the realms of councleing make a clergy person more capable of doing more help instead of having to rely on refering people to others? For instance, in the past my husband and I were looking for a marriage counceler, and well we went to one, but there were issues becuase of our religion.... It would be nice if there was a neo-pagan councler or clergy member who was trained to do marriage counceling. I don't feel that "life" gives anyone the quaifications to do marriage counceling. I would prefer to go to a profestional, especialy if I was paying them.
Dove
And what ever training is needed for whatever area your in with your clergy, you will usually get. I dont even know of a clergy that is reconised as legal (by my states standards) that doesnt provide training. But training doesnt nessesarily mean a degree on the wall.

In my state you can not even be a member of the clergy unless your are in regular contact with the leagally recognised organisation and, you must, and the parent org must, keep continual records of all contacts.
The state does check you out regularly. I have to fill out monthly reports and turn them in proptly or I loose my cridentials.

[MorningDove030202]

And what ever training is needed for whatever area your in with your clergy, you will usually get. I dont even know of a clergy that is reconised as legal (by my states standards) that doesnt provide training. But training doesnt nessesarily mean a degree on the wall.

In my state you can not even be a member of the clergy unless your are in regular contact with the leagally recognised organisation and, you must, and the parent org must, keep continual records of all contacts.
The state does check you out regularly. I have to fill out monthly reports and turn them in proptly or I loose my cridentials.
Wow that monthly paperwork must be a pain. I'm not sure what my state requirements are, I have a ways to go before I realy need to look at them.

No, training doesn't have to mean a college degree or a degree from a tradition. Those are just the examples I am most familer with. Well that, and then healing type certificates, like for Reki, and things of that nature. In general I feel that quantifiable education is a good thing.

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Clergy should be counseling from a spiritual perspective only. Anything beyond that, including marital counseling, should require extra training.

However, many people, myself included, don't like that clergy get special treatment, when quite often they have done nothing more than other people to deserve it. In Christian churches especially, clergy are put on a pedestal that is somehow closer to God, and when you are put high up, the fall is much, much harder.

I am NOT a neo-pagan. I'm not a Pagan at all. However I used to be Pagan, and I know many, many pagans who don't like the idea of a religious hierarchy that is set up by a specialized clergy. Clergy becomes "better" and works to keep themselves that way. They get special benefits and can do things that other people can't do. I don't like that and that's why I got ordained and encourage others to become ordained as well. If enough people receive ordination perhaps the government will realize that it's something that shouldn't be regulated.

This is heading into something political so I'll try to steer it back to the original conversation.

Yes, education is good, not to prove something to others, but to learn more. I don't charge for counseling, I never have. I don't feel that people who need counseling should have to pay for it. The counseling that I offer is pastoral counseling based on past experience. However, I also have a certificate in spiritual counseling, because there were classes that I wanted to take. And honestly, people don't ask to see my certificate, they don't ask to see my credentials. They see that I and Reverend Doctor Gwynne Michele Lacey D.D. of the Universal Life Church and it's enough for them. And yes, I am legally able to hold that title, though I really don't use it very often.

If you need psychological treatment you shouldn't go to a clergy member. There are secular doctors for that. I hope to someday be one of them, but more so I can do a research study on how personality affects religion... but that's a whole other discussion.....

And it does not take a lot of training to know when someone's problems are psychological. Any ethical pastoral counselor will know when they can't handle the situation and will make recommendations accordingly.

And don't forget that most clergy training is ongoing, on-the-job sort of experience.

[MorningDove030202]

I'm also ordained by ULC, but I don't feel that it realy qualifies me to call myself Rev. MorningDove. If I'm looking for more than a leagal handfasting, I would want to see way more than a ULC ordainment certificate.

So what was your spiritual councling class like? Where did you take it? It sounds like something I might be intersted in.....

Dove

[Shanti]

I'm also ordained by ULC, but I don't feel that it realy qualifies me to call myself Rev. MorningDove. If I'm looking for more than a leagal handfasting, I would want to see way more than a ULC ordainment certificate.

So what was your spiritual councling class like? Where did you take it? It sounds like something I might be intersted in.....

Dove
If you are ordained how can you not know your state laws requarding clergy? If you are not within those laws than you are not 'legally' a member of the clergy and then can not preform a mariage cerimony or anything. You would have no legal standing to practice as a memeber of the clergy. A piece of paper saying you are ordained is useless if you are not within your state requirements.

Just an observation.

[Aine of the Fae]

The class I took was one offered locally by an inter-religious group. It was a mix of psychology and learning about various religions.

Why doesn't having a ULC ordination qualify you to call yourself Reverend MorningDover???? All that Reverend means is that you are legally ordained. It doesn't signify a degree or any specific training. 100 years ago a man could read a Bible and boom he was qualified to start preaching and call himself Reverend!!!!

The Universal Life Church fought long and hard, and spent a lot of money doing so, to ensure your right to call yourself Reverend. What is that saying by not doing so?

The sole function of clergy, in my view, is to perform certain religious ceremonies that others legally cannot do. There is only one that I know of and that is the marriage ceremony. Other than that? Anyone can fulfill the roles of clergy if they so desire. I am legally able to perform weddings. I don't need any other training to do so.

And if I wanted to be a preacher? Well, ask anyone on this board, I probably wouldn't need much more training to do that either!!!

Yes, clergy members perform counseling, but not in the sense of "solve peoples problems" counseling. They are not psychologists and spiritual counseling is only helping a person muddle through their religious life. A Roman Catholic priests idea of counseling is to listen to your sins, say "Say 150 Hail Mary's and you're forgiven...." A Protestant pastors idea of counseling might be to listen to your troubles, point you to certain Bible passages that may deal with your problem and pray with you. There isn't psychological treatment going on, and as I said before, if someone needs psychological treatment, they probably shouldn't be going to a clergy member.

You seem to be wanting to give clergy more power than most Pagans are comfortable with and I think you'll have a very, very hard time with that in some pagan circles. A lot of people leave the church because they don't like the power plays that go on.

[Aine of the Fae]

If you are ordained how can you not know your state laws requarding clergy? If you are not within those laws than you are not 'legally' a member of the clergy and then can not preform a mariage cerimony or anything. You would have no legal standing to practice as a memeber of the clergy. A piece of paper saying you are ordained is useless if you are not within your state requirements.

Just an observation.

And this is true no matter how much training or education you have. If you don't know the laws of the state in which you live or practice, how can you practice as clergy at all?

[MorningDove030202]

If you are ordained how can you not know your state laws requarding clergy? If you are not within those laws than you are not 'legally' a member of the clergy and then can not preform a mariage cerimony or anything. You would have no legal standing to practice as a memeber of the clergy. A piece of paper saying you are ordained is useless if you are not within your state requirements.

Just an observation.
Well, I guess you have a point there. It's not realy a concern of mine, I don't yet feel qualifed to be clergy and I'm not acting as one now.
Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Well, I guess you have a point there. It's not realy a concern of mine, I don't yet feel qualifed to be clergy and I'm not acting as one now.
Dove

Then why do you have a ULC ordination? The ULC exists so that people who feel qualified to do so can become ordained with the least amount of hastle. There isn't a "traditional" church out there that would ordain me, either Christian, or Pagan! But I personally feel that I am qualified to be a minister. Why? Because it's what I feel called to. I feel called to lead a spiritual life and to help others connect with their spirituality. But if I didn't think I was qualified to be ordained? I wouldn't have gotten the ordination. It just seems dishonest to me.

[MorningDove030202]

I guess I have a different standard for what a clergyperson does. To me it's more than cermonies, and that would also include funerals, as well as wedings . So what inter religoius group was it? I want to go look it up and see if they have something like that where I live. Did it cost money?

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

They aren't online. It was a local Inter-Religious group called the Life Resources Center. The classes were about $500 for the series... I took them back when I actually had that thing called money :lol:

Your definition of clergy seems to go along the lines of the Christian definition of clergy and you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of Pagans who like that definition. The Correllian tradition is one group, but I've already expressed my opinion on their training.

[MorningDove030202]

Then why do you have a ULC ordination? The ULC exists so that people who feel qualified to do so can become ordained with the least amount of hastle. There isn't a "traditional" church out there that would ordain me, either Christian, or Pagan! But I personally feel that I am qualified to be a minister. Why? Because it's what I feel called to. I feel called to lead a spiritual life and to help others connect with their spirituality. But if I didn't think I was qualified to be ordained? I wouldn't have gotten the ordination. It just seems dishonest to me.


Ya, there is a traditional church that would ordain you, but you have to go to a real college... The Unitarian Universalists wouldn't have an issue with your interestes in both christianity and paganism. www.uua.org I'm surprized you haven't heard of them, or if you have, didn't consider them an option.

I did the ordainment in college because I thought it was cool, that was like 7 years ago now. I know better now.

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Yes I have heard of the UU and no they probably wouldn't like me. I don't hold their "all paths" view and I don't particularly care for the UU. I've been to one of their churches, there is one not that far from where I live. They are not an option for me because of personal preference. They are not a Christian church, nor are they Pagan, they are just sort of "whatever you believe..." From what I've seen, spirituality tends to become homogenized in the UU churches. And while I certainly have no problem with picking and choosing from various spiritualities, I do not personal value all paths as equal. However I do respect each persons right to believe as they do as long as they leave me alone about what I believe.

[Grey]

Hmm... My cousin MK told me there was something called the Universal Life church out in wisconsin... They supposedly would ordain people as pagan clergy and were recognised by most states as a religious organization... though they said something about not wanting people to claim non-profit status with their states. Made me a bit warry of them, but its worth looking into if you feel the need to be able to say marry someone.

[MorningDove030202]

They aren't online. It was a local Inter-Religious group called the Life Resources Center. The classes were about $500 for the series... I took them back when I actually had that thing called money :lol:

Your definition of clergy seems to go along the lines of the Christian definition of clergy and you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of Pagans who like that definition. The Correllian tradition is one group, but I've already expressed my opinion on their training.
I think there is more to clergy than ceremonies, but that doesn't mean I'm looking for heiarchy or sermons on sunday morning. I think clergy should also do hospital visits, and couceling a bit deeper than you describe, I think clergy should be able to do marriage counceling, substance abuse counceling, lead open rituals for the holidays. This would be for a full time and paid (to some degree, that's altogether another issue) clergyperson. Obviously a part time clergyperson wouldn't be able to do as much.

I found some info on UU ministers I wanted to share:

How are Unitarian Universalist ministers trained?

Technically, our congregations are free to call whomever they wish to be ministers of their communities. However, almost all our churches select from a group of ministers that have been approved by the Ministerial Fellowship Committee of the UUA. To obtain approval from this committee, ministers must have earned a Masters of Divinity degree from an accredited theological school, completed a year of supervised internship, read materials from a required reading list, completed a course of clinical training in pastoral care, and met other requirements before interviewing in front of the committee itself.

There are two specifically UU seminaries in the United States: Meadville/Lombard Theological School in Chicago and Starr King School for the Ministry in Berkeley, CA. Many of our ministers graduate from other seminaries that are non-denominational. Both Harvard Divinity School in Cambridge, MA, and Andover Newton Theological School in Newton, MA, have sizable numbers of Unitarian Universalists enrolled in their programs.

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Hmm... My cousin MK told me there was something called the Universal Life church out in wisconsin... They supposedly would ordain people as pagan clergy and were recognised by most states as a religious organization... though they said something about not wanting people to claim non-profit status with their states. Made me a bit warry of them, but its worth looking into if you feel the need to be able to say marry someone.

:lol: Read the rest of the thread, the ULC has already been discussed. They are out of California and you can't claim non-profit status as a clergy member, only if you establish your own church. A person can't be non-profit, only and organization!!!!

[MorningDove030202]

Yes I have heard of the UU and no they probably wouldn't like me. I don't hold their "all paths" view and I don't particularly care for the UU. I've been to one of their churches, there is one not that far from where I live. They are not an option for me because of personal preference. They are not a Christian church, nor are they Pagan, they are just sort of "whatever you believe..." From what I've seen, spirituality tends to become homogenized in the UU churches. And while I certainly have no problem with picking and choosing from various spiritualities, I do not personal value all paths as equal. However I do respect each persons right to believe as they do as long as they leave me alone about what I believe.
Each UU is different. Some are very pagan, some like mine are very humanist... But we are all individuals, I don't feel homogenized at all and I've been there for 5 years now and even taught their sundayschool. I also don't think anyone there feels that all paths are equaly valid either. I think you would get some strong opinons about how women are treated in Islam, and how gays are treated in some Christian groups.

Dove

[Sibylle]

I find some agreement of opinion here but not all or everyone puts rank upon themselves. I dont think I am better than anyones else nor do I know more. All of life is learning. Again I think this is an example of some ruining it for others. Not all forms of clergy are bad or think they are above anyone.
Hi Shanti, I didn't mean to imply that! Sorry if it came across that way. What I said is just how I personally feel about ranks and degree systems, but I'm not assuming people who do accept them look down on others. That wasn't my intention. And I do realise my opionion is somewhat radical there :)


Still, there is a difference between Clergy and someone with whatever Degree.... A clergy person serves the community with handfastings, hospital visits, prison minstry (another place where there are many legal hoops to jump threw), ministering and counciling, and teaching, and funerals...... isn't this an important duity? Should there be someone dedicated to this work that doesn't have to worry about a 9-5 job? Perhapse not now, but eventualy we will need full time clergy. Don't you think?
Hm... You know, I just don't see the call for a full-time clergy in that. You make a valid point, but I personally prefer to learn from everyone else, I sometimes learn more from a newbie than someone who's been practising for decades... And the same goes for councelling, in a community (might even be online ;) ) there are always people one can relate to and who will help. Handfastings etc. are another task of the community, and I'd assume that any "elder" could bless a union.

I know there's the problem about getting paganism accepted officially and making handfastings a legal way of getting married (which it isn't in most countries), but I just don't care that much about these "official" things. Again, I'm not saying this is how everyone should think, I just choose to stay out of it myself.

Hugs!!

[Aine of the Fae]

Hi Shanti, I didn't mean to imply that! Sorry if it came across that way. What I said is just how I personally feel about ranks and degree systems, but I'm not assuming people who do accept them look down on others. That wasn't my intention. And I do realise my opionion is somewhat radical there :)


Hm... You know, I just don't see the call for a full-time clergy in that. You make a valid point, but I personally prefer to learn from everyone else, I sometimes learn more from a newbie than someone who's been practising for decades... And the same goes for councelling, in a community (might even be online ;) ) there are always people one can relate to and who will help. Handfastings etc. are another task of the community, and I'd assume that any "elder" could bless a union.

I know there's the problem about getting paganism accepted officially and making handfastings a legal way of getting married (which it isn't in most countries), but I just don't care that much about these "official" things. Again, I'm not saying this is how everyone should think, I just choose to stay out of it myself.

Hugs!!

Personally I think the government needs to step out of "marriages" and "handfasting" altogether. Marriage has been traditionally considered to be in the realm of religion, something the U.S. government isn't really supposed to involve itself in.

When I got married I hadn't formed many of my political opinions yet, if I had I wouldn't have gotten married. Marriage should be between you and your spouse(s) and, if you choose, your deity. However, with the institution of marriage licenses, government has forced itself into marriage.

I agree with you Hag Stella that the counseling shouldn't be left to just an elite group of clergy. We should ALL be doing the prison and hospital visits. We should ALL be there for our fellow worshippers, no matter what they worship. But in this day and age that's not all that realistic.

My dream for an inter-faith community center is to get it started and running fairly well and just be there for administration, the day to day business part of it. We'd have volunteers, from the community, doing hospital and prison visits, charity work and counseling. We'd offer peer counseling classes, because yes you do need some training for counseling, but I don't think it should be limited to a special group of clergy.

And somebody mentioned something about drug counseling. That should NOT fall under the scope of pastoral counseling. Drug abuse is a psychological condition and so needs psychological treatment. Support groups can be run by anyone, and are in fact best run by former addicts, not necessarily clergy. However the treatment itself should fall to medical/psychological professionals.

I believe that it's the attitude that the "clergy" should handle all the visits to hospitals and prisons that leaves a LOT of people very, very lonely. If more people would take a couple of hours out of their week and just go visit people, it would be a better world to live in.

[Ladyvi]

with so many teens and young ones looking to wicca and witchcraft for answers i think clergy that understands this and has license to at least listen and councel them can have some positive impact. at least imparting to the young ones beginning to weave energies some morality.

thats one of my pet peeves. an otherwise talented young person trying to do something that they are not conditioned to and either end up hurt, hurt someone else or burned out too early. to top it all off some of what these young ones are doing affects the tapestry and elders left to make repairs as well as try to mend the young one that may not recover.

[Aine of the Fae]

with so many teens and young ones looking to wicca and witchcraft for answers i think clergy that understands this and has license to at least listen and councel them can have some positive impact. at least imparting to the young ones beginning to weave energies some morality.

thats one of my pet peeves. an otherwise talented young person trying to do something that they are not conditioned to and either end up hurt, hurt someone else or burned out too early. to top it all off some of what these young ones are doing affects the tapestry and elders left to make repairs as well as try to mend the young one that may not recover.

The problem with that is even licensed clergy can't teach without parental permission, and just because you have a license doesn't mean the parent is going to say "Oh, sure my daughter can learn a religion that is fundamentally against everything I believe in. It's ok because you're ordained...." Yes, having a structured clergy may change some of the misperceptions about paganism/witchcraft, however it will also turn away a great number of people who are trying to get away from organized religion. Paganism is appealing because it is not generally organized. Throw in organization and you get fundamentalists who want to keep the path "pure"

[MorningDove030202]

I disagree that trained clergy will make neopaganism lose it's apeal. It's not like trained clergy would be knocking on our doors like some christian groups. If a trained clergyperson did have a "congregation" it mostlikely would be within a tradition which people typicaly chose to belong to and can leave if they want. I don't think they would be bothering those of us who didn't belong to that clergymember's tradition.

Well Educated and Trained, and Structured are two different things....... I feel that out side of a Tradition a structure is not apropreate. Within a Tradition, they can do things how they want to.

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

I disagree that trained clergy will make neopaganism lose it's apeal. It's not like trained clergy would be knocking on our doors like some christian groups. If a trained clergyperson did have a "congregation" it mostlikely would be within a tradition which people typicaly chose to belong to and can leave if they want. I don't think they would be bothering those of us who didn't belong to that clergymember's tradition.

Well Educated and Trained, and Structured are two different things....... I feel that out side of a Tradition a structure is not apropreate. Within a Tradition, they can do things how they want to.

Dove

Clergy within a specific tradition would be fine. But when you get to the point of saying that clergy have to be educated in a certain way? I just don't think that's fair. It should be up to each individual to decide if they have a "calling" as clergy, whether they are part of a tradition, or not.

[Ladyvi]

i didnt say teach . i said .. counsel. to listen.. offer some solace. perhaps a few parents would be more comfortable to a sort of 'boys and girls club' of sorts.

[MorningDove030202]

i didnt say teach . i said .. counsel. to listen.. offer some solace. perhaps a few parents would be more comfortable to a sort of 'boys and girls club' of sorts.

Well in a way, you can talk to minors online... so many are desprerate to get a clue about Wicca or Paganism. I usualy point them to www.maidenmoon.com...... But I don't think that we are at a point where we could talk to minors in person, however we can be ready for them when they turn 18 and they start looking for others.....

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

Well in a way, you can talk to minors online... so many are desprerate to get a clue about Wicca or Paganism. I usualy point them to www.maidenmoon.com...... But I don't think that we are at a point where we could talk to minors in person, however we can be ready for them when they turn 18 and they start looking for others.....

Dove

Actuallly talking to minors online can present problems as well. I have known of cases where adults got in quit a bit of trouble for specifically talking to minors about alternative religions. It's one thing to make the information available, it's an entirely different thing to point minors to it and specifically instruct them.

[Sibylle]

I've met too many 50-year old pagan idiots - and teens that have simply knocked me out with their understanding and wisdom - to believe that any official clergy is necessary for guiding the fluffs... There will always be people who aren't serious about the path. It's not like there's no material to learn from or people willing to teach if someone really WANTS to learn.

And if you look at organised religions, you see what happens when clergy gets all the power and responsibility. What I like about my path (been a witch for 15 years) is that everyone has to take responsibility for themselves, learn and grow... And noone's there to tell them what to do or believe.

Again, just my own personal 0.02$ ;)

[cheddarsox]

I think the role of clergy is to SERVE a particular community of faithful. As different pagan groups gather, it may make sense for them to choose, call, or invite someone amongst themselves to serve as clergy for their group. The requirements should be decided upon by the community being served, as to what type of training is neccessary, and what type of services they want their clergy to provide.

The larger the community, probably the greater need for organisation and clergy service. My personal belief is that service means just that, serving, not expecting or demanding deference and kowtowing by the rest of the community.

I feel the community should care for their clergy as well, and depending on the amount of service required, money could enter the agreement.

Clergy exists for the community, not the other way around. I am leery of leaders who name themselves cheif grand mucky muck and then expect everyone to defer to them because they are "clergy". I also believe being clergy is a calling, and not always a life long one. Many of us are called into service for a time, we serve, we grow, we move on and make room for the next servant to step forward.

For some communities, the best approach to clergy is for the members of the community to step forward as they are willing and able to meet the needs of one another.

All my opinion , of course. Great thread!

cheddarsox

[MorningDove030202]

I think the role of clergy is to SERVE a particular community of faithful. As different pagan groups gather, it may make sense for them to choose, call, or invite someone amongst themselves to serve as clergy for their group. The requirements should be decided upon by the community being served, as to what type of training is neccessary, and what type of services they want their clergy to provide.

The larger the community, probably the greater need for organisation and clergy service. My personal belief is that service means just that, serving, not expecting or demanding deference and kowtowing by the rest of the community.

I feel the community should care for their clergy as well, and depending on the amount of service required, money could enter the agreement.

Clergy exists for the community, not the other way around. I am leery of leaders who name themselves cheif grand mucky muck and then expect everyone to defer to them because they are "clergy". I also believe being clergy is a calling, and not always a life long one. Many of us are called into service for a time, we serve, we grow, we move on and make room for the next servant to step forward.

For some communities, the best approach to clergy is for the members of the community to step forward as they are willing and able to meet the needs of one another.

All my opinion , of course. Great thread!

cheddarsox
I agree with your opinion, and I'm glad you like the thread.

Let me throw out another question reguarding the duties of clergy....

How does one get invovled with Hopital Visitation? Do you have to sign up with the hospital and be on their list of apoved clergypeople? Has anyone here done this?

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

I agree with your opinion, and I'm glad you like the thread.

Let me throw out another question reguarding the duties of clergy....

How does one get invovled with Hopital Visitation? Do you have to sign up with the hospital and be on their list of apoved clergypeople? Has anyone here done this?

Dove

Hospital visits are general done by a clergy person to members of their "congregation" In fact it's sort of taboo to go visit a person who has a minister or attends another church. I only know this because my grandmother is a retired minister and so I got to learn a bit about clergy politics

Basically you do hospital visits as a minsiter if someone asks you to.

[MorningDove030202]

Hospital visits are general done by a clergy person to members of their "congregation" In fact it's sort of taboo to go visit a person who has a minister or attends another church. I only know this because my grandmother is a retired minister and so I got to learn a bit about clergy politics

Basically you do hospital visits as a minsiter if someone asks you to.

So there isn't like a list or something that the hospital has for patients to pick from? Obviously I wouldn't visit someone unless they requested it, but how would people know I'm available? I could list my self at witchvox, but I thought hospitals kept a list.

Dove

[Aine of the Fae]

So there isn't like a list or something that the hospital has for patients to pick from? Obviously I wouldn't visit someone unless they requested it, but how would people know I'm available? I could list my self at witchvox, but I thought hospitals kept a list.

Dove

Hospitals around here don't, it's a privacy thing. Basically a lot of it is word of mouth, especially if you don't have a specific church or group that you are associated with. Contact local hospitals and find out, as well as listing yourself at witchvox.