What is a Christian?

[punxzen]

What, in your opinion, defines a Christian. Is there a specific doctrine that all Christians have to follow in order for them to call themselves Christian?

[IvyWitch]

I'm pretty sure that if you don't believe in the divinity of Christ you're not a Christian. As far as I'm aware that is basic Christian doctrine. Without the divity of Christ aspect there would BE no Christianity, and they'd all be Jewish. *shrug*

And to believe he was a good teacher does not a Christian make - Buddhism is technically a philosophy that was turned into a religion (that probably has the Buddah turning in his grave..).

[Whisper9999]

What, in your opinion, defines a Christian. Is there a specific doctrine that all Christians have to follow in order for them to call themselves Christian?

Imo here is the evangelical position:

A Christian is someone is in actuality someone who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them. This is a well-developed New Testament doctrine that is supported by Old Testament Scriptures as well. And this, by the way, is the power and strength of New Testament Christianity because the Holy Spirit, to those who let Him, will radically transform their life from the inside out.

I am mentioning this because Christianity should not be viewed as a "set of doctrines". It is truly relational. The idea is to have your spirit merged with God's. Chrisitianity is actually very simple with very few rules and the reason is that the Spirit is to be the primary guide for the individual in their given culture.

Of course, the question (for those interested in Chrisitianity) is "how does one have this occur"? Here are a few basics from the New Testament:

1. You must be born again.
2. You must ask to be saved, i.e. it's not forced on you.
3. You must accept what Jesus did on the cross by faith, i.e. you can't do it yourself.

Now this subject is actually quite involved and I think it would only be of interest to Christians like myself. But I want to add that some people act like they are born again but are in fact. Who are these people? Well, only God knows of course from my standpoint. And many of them are the non-Christians that are so reviled as hypocrits. Of course, "true" Christians can be very hypocritical as well. None of us is perfect you know...

[punxzen]

I'm pretty sure that if you don't believe in the divinity of Christ you're not a Christian. As far as I'm aware that is basic Christian doctrine. Without the divity of Christ aspect there would BE no Christianity, and they'd all be Jewish. *shrug*

And to believe he was a good teacher does not a Christian make - Buddhism is technically a philosophy that was turned into a religion (that probably has the Buddah turning in his grave..).

what is this divinity of christ? i believe in the divinity of all of humanity, not in christ specifically, and i know of many other christians who are the same. i personally would say that anyone who follows christs teachings is a christian, whether they see him as just one of the guys or as something more being irrelevant.

[IvyWitch]

what is this divinity of christ? i believe in the divinity of all of humanity, not in christ specifically, and i know of many other christians who are the same. i personally would say that anyone who follows christs teachings is a christian, whether they see him as just one of the guys or as something more being irrelevant.

Ok, well here is where semantics come in....

The word Christian is an obvious reference to the organized religion of Christianity. In order to be a part of this religion one must believe that Christ is God and/or is the Son of God and follow his teachings. But the idea that Jesus is God is pretty much central to the faith -after all, if they weren't worshipping Jesus as God and the Messiah they'd all be Jewish!. After that you get into different denominational teachings.

Simply following the teachings of Jesus as a philosophy and not a religion like Buddhism is of course possible, but calling it Christianity is more than confusing.

[Mab]

Imo here is the evangelical position:

A Christian is someone is in actuality someone who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them. This is a well-developed New Testament doctrine that is supported by Old Testament Scriptures as well. And this, by the way, is the power and strength of New Testament Christianity because the Holy Spirit, to those who let Him, will radically transform their life from the inside out.

I am mentioning this because Christianity should not be viewed as a "set of doctrines". It is truly relational. The idea is to have your spirit merged with God's. Chrisitianity is actually very simple with very few rules and the reason is that the Spirit is to be the primary guide for the individual in their given culture.

Of course, the question (for those interested in Chrisitianity) is "how does one have this occur"? Here are a few basics from the New Testament:

1. You must be born again.
2. You must ask to be saved, i.e. it's not forced on you.
3. You must accept what Jesus did on the cross by faith, i.e. you can't do it yourself.

Now this subject is actually quite involved and I think it would only be of interest to Christians like myself. But I want to add that some people act like they are born again but are in fact. Who are these people? Well, only God knows of course from my standpoint. And many of them are the non-Christians that are so reviled as hypocrits. Of course, "true" Christians can be very hypocritical as well. None of us is perfect you know...
yep...that's pretty much it. Beleive plus nothing. Beleive in the perfect humanity & perfect divinity of Jesus, that he was crucified & paid the price for the sins of all mankind for all eternity, buried & rose on the 3rd day in the victory over spiritual death, and is seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. One must ask Jesus to enter one's heart & accept Him as one's personal saviour, and when that is done, one receives the Righteousness of Christ & the gift of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

That's pretty much the most basic basics. Everything after that is up for interpretation--which is how we got Catholics, Presbretyrians, American Baptists, Southern Baptists, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, Free Presbretyrians, Nazarenes, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, Pentacostals, and a million other denominations.

[punxzen]

Imo here is the evangelical position:

A Christian is someone is in actuality someone who has the Holy Spirit indwelling them. This is a well-developed New Testament doctrine that is supported by Old Testament Scriptures as well. And this, by the way, is the power and strength of New Testament Christianity because the Holy Spirit, to those who let Him, will radically transform their life from the inside out.

I am mentioning this because Christianity should not be viewed as a "set of doctrines". It is truly relational. The idea is to have your spirit merged with God's. Chrisitianity is actually very simple with very few rules and the reason is that the Spirit is to be the primary guide for the individual in their given culture.

Of course, the question (for those interested in Chrisitianity) is "how does one have this occur"? Here are a few basics from the New Testament:

1. You must be born again.
2. You must ask to be saved, i.e. it's not forced on you.
3. You must accept what Jesus did on the cross by faith, i.e. you can't do it yourself.

Now this subject is actually quite involved and I think it would only be of interest to Christians like myself. But I want to add that some people act like they are born again but are in fact. Who are these people? Well, only God knows of course from my standpoint. And many of them are the non-Christians that are so reviled as hypocrits. Of course, "true" Christians can be very hypocritical as well. None of us is perfect you know...

thats interesting, if you feel like explaining further, i would think that this would be a good thread in which to do so. i personally would be interested in what you mean by born again. im determined to understand this, since i have been raised methodist, but never completely understood what a lot of this stuff really meant.

[Aine of the Fae]

what is this divinity of christ? i believe in the divinity of all of humanity, not in christ specifically, and i know of many other christians who are the same. i personally would say that anyone who follows christs teachings is a christian, whether they see him as just one of the guys or as something more being irrelevant.

What she means by the divinity of Christ, is the belief that Jesus, while fully human, was also fully God. It's a radically different idea than the "divine spark in all"

I agree with your definition of Christian by the way. The word literally means "one who is like Christ" and was early on used to indicate anyone who followed the teachings of Christ. Not the doctrines of "the church" but the teachings of Christ.

[Aine of the Fae]

thats interesting, if you feel like explaining further, i would think that this would be a good thread in which to do so. i personally would be interested in what you mean by born again. im determined to understand this, since i have been raised methodist, but never completely understood what a lot of this stuff really meant.

If you were raised Methodist you may have a difficult time understanding the fundamentalist view of being "born again." It's a radical transformation, basically replacing the old, nasty you with a shiney, new improved, Holy Spirit enhanced you. It's between the person being "born again" and God and no human can say whether a person is truly "born again" or not.

I was going to say more, but considering the experience I had tonight, I think I'll just leave at that or I might just get myself into a whole lot of trouble...

[punxzen]

Ok, well here is where semantics come in....

The word Christian is an obvious reference to the organized religion of Christianity. In order to be a part of this religion one must believe that Christ is God and/or is the Son of God and follow his teachings. But the idea that Jesus is God is pretty much central to the faith -after all, if they weren't worshipping Jesus as God and the Messiah they'd all be Jewish!. After that you get into different denominational teachings.

Simply following the teachings of Jesus as a philosophy and not a religion like Buddhism is of course possible, but calling it Christianity is more than confusing.

i disagree with the assumption that christians would be jews without jesus. the majority of peoples who were converted to christianity were not jewish before they learned about jesus. a great many christians in the early years (up until around 300 c.e.) considered YHWH to be an evil demiurge, and considered christ to be the incarnation of something far more ancient and omnicient.

more semantics, what in your opinion makes a philosophy different from a religion?

[Aine of the Fae]

i disagree with the assumption that christians would be jews without jesus. the majority of peoples who were converted to christianity were not jewish before they learned about jesus. a great many christians in the early years (up until around 300 c.e.) considered YHWH to be an evil demiurge, and considered christ to be the incarnation of something far more ancient and omnicient.

more semantics, what in your opinion makes a philosophy different from a religion?

A philosophy tends to be more open to change than a religion does. Religion becomes dogmatic and stuck with ideas that quickly become outdated. Philosophy is the drive to seek newer and newer ideas until ultimate truth is realized. Religion assumes it already has the truth, even when shown facts that prove otherwise.

[Mab]

well, no, if we didn't believe in Jesus' divinity, we wouldn't all be Jewish, but.....I do see the point there.

Philosophy, as I understand it, does not include a core belief in the divinity of a being. You could follow the teachings of Neitzche (or however you spell it, I always screw it up) a nihilist, but that doesn't make nihilism isn't a religion, does it?

I'm sorry, but simply following the teachings of Jesus does NOT (by Christianity's own definition) make one a Christian. Just thinking Jesus was a great guy & maybe a really good prophet but not the Son of God....nope, that doesn't fit Christianity's own definition of the faith. The most basic of Christian tenets--the most core belief--is that Jesus was born perfectly human AND perfectly Divine as the Son of God.

Being born again means a spiritual re-birth. Most Christians that use this phrase believe that people are born into this world with the "stain" of Original Sin. Until we (or they, or you, or whomever) accept Jesus as our personal savior & accept the work He did on the cross, we are "of the world". When we are "saved", we go through a spiritual rebirth, where the Divine Righteousness is installed into our souls, so to speak. Being "born again" doesn't necessarily feeling bad for your past sins or habits, or renouncing old habits. It means that your spirit has undergone a change....you (or we, or whatever) have changed your mind about what you believed about Christ. Before, maybe you didn't believe in Him, or in His work....then you changed your mind & asked Him into your heart & accepted His work as Truth. It's symbolized in water baptism--the death & re-birth of the new spirit...the washing away of the old beliefs.....the burial & resurrection. A lot of symbolism in that one dunking (or sprinkling).

And before my butt gets jumped by somebody--What I said above is how I was raised & what I believe & based on my experience with other Christians, and I am in no way saying other Christians are doing it wrong, or that anybody else it wrong or can't do something different.

[IvyWitch]

more semantics, what in your opinion makes a philosophy different from a religion?

A religion has a core philosophy AND a God form. A philosophy does not have Gods.

[Whisper9999]

yep...that's pretty much it. Beleive plus nothing. Beleive in the perfect humanity & perfect divinity of Jesus, that he was crucified & paid the price for the sins of all mankind for all eternity, buried & rose on the 3rd day in the victory over spiritual death, and is seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. One must ask Jesus to enter one's heart & accept Him as one's personal saviour, and when that is done, one receives the Righteousness of Christ & the gift of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

That's pretty much the most basic basics. Everything after that is up for interpretation--which is how we got Catholics, Presbretyrians, American Baptists, Southern Baptists, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, Free Presbretyrians, Nazarenes, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, Pentacostals, and a million other denominations.

Nicely stated! I find so much that mis-characterizes mainstream Christianity that this was refreshing.

But there's only one thing I wish you had added. This is a mystically-oriented web site and you have stated only the more "dry" doctrinal aspects of Christianity. The mystery and mysticism of Christianity lies in the power of Holy Spirit, a relationship with God and guidance and direction in one's every day life. This is what makes the Christian life exciting for the Christian. Christianity is the opposite of a rules based religion which is yet another reason why it is so appealing...

[Whisper9999]

A philosophy tends to be more open to change than a religion does. Religion becomes dogmatic and stuck with ideas that quickly become outdated. Philosophy is the drive to seek newer and newer ideas until ultimate truth is realized. Religion assumes it already has the truth, even when shown facts that prove otherwise.

What facts? Theism is supported nicely by modern astronomical, geological and archaeological findings. Origin of Life research, for example, bears this out well. Theism is far from dangling from death. It is coming to life both by supernatural manifestations and by scientific findings. It is in the best "shape" that it has been in since the Roman Empire. Even if you disagree with it, I think you should recognize that it is a potent force to be reckoned with....

[Whisper9999]

Here are a few quotes from some of the world's top level scientist to show you how the climate has changed and that relgious views cannot be summarily dismissed as you suggested above:

China’s famed astrophysicist Fang Li Zhi wrote, “A question that has always been considered a topic of metaphysics or theology, the creation of the universe, has now become an area of active research.”

George Ellis, famed colleague of Stephen Hawking, wrote, “Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it difficult not to use the word miraculous.”

Even agnostic astrophyicist Robert Jastrow said, "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has a scaled the nation of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Arno Penzias, Nobel prize winner for physics (for COBE no less!):
"Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say "supernatural" plan)."

Roger Penrose, distinguished mathematician, author and colleague of Hawking, said, "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."

[equinox2]

Hi All-

There seem to be two ways of approaching this. One is the mainstream Christian way, supported by probably at least 70% of Christians today. This is well articulated by Aine and supported by Whisper:


Aine wrote: yep...that's pretty much it. Beleive plus nothing. Beleive in the perfect humanity & perfect divinity of Jesus, that he was crucified & paid the price for the sins of all mankind for all eternity, buried & rose on the 3rd day in the victory over spiritual death, and is seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. One must ask Jesus to enter one's heart & accept Him as one's personal saviour, and when that is done, one receives the Righteousness of Christ & the gift of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

This is similar to the Catholic Churche’s Nicene creed (developed at the council of Nicea in 325 CE). Nearly all Christians, both protestant and Catholic, agree with it:
http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

However, to use the mainstream definition ignores history. After Jesus’ death, it appears that literally dozens of Christianities sprung up. Some believed that Jesus was a god, some believed he was human, some believed he was both. Some believed you had to be Jewish to be Christian, some believed that Jewish things (like the old testament) had no part in Christianity. Their beliefs were even more varied than todays thousands of Christian denominations. All of these Christianities had scripture to support their views, and they all believed their scripture was written by apostles and was correct. We know today that all of the books of the new testament probably weren’t written by apostles, except for the Pauline letters (and some of the other Christianities didn’t believe Paul when he said he was an apostle). The Roman church was able to gain dominance, and eradicate these other Christianities by 400 CE. So our “bible” today is simply the sacred scripture of the Roman church. That Roman church destroyed the other Christian scriptures, and put itself in place as the “only” Christianity. This is why the Nicene Creed is practically a laundry list of statements written to disagree with the other competeing christianities in turn (read it sometime, you'll see what I mean).

It’s amazing to me how many people (Christians in particular) don’t know this. If you’d like to learn about those other Christianities, I recommend ordering these lectures:

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6593.asp (audio form)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195141830/qid=1085748569/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6867012-7485562?v=glance&s=books (book form, $20)

If you get them on audio tape they are just $35, the same you probably spend every month on cable. Which will stoke your mind more, a month of cable or learning about these other Christianities? I found that listening to them in my car on my commute worked great.

So as a result, it is not really accurate to decide what “Christianity” is based only on the scriptures of one type of Christianity (the Roman Church & their Bible). So in all fairness, I have to go with Punxzen and Aine of the Fae in defining “Christianity” as “any religion that sees Jesus as significant or central”. That would include Gnostics, Mormons, Jehovah’s witnesses, and people who try to follow just “Jesus’ teachings” while ignoring the rest of the Bible, or ignoring Jesus’ death as an atoning sacrifice (which many early Christianities didn’t believe in).

[Tullip Troll]

Hi All-

There seem to be two ways of approaching this. One is the mainstream Christian way, supported by probably at least 70% of Christians today. This is well articulated by Aine and supported by Whisper:


This is similar to the Catholic Churche’s Nicene creed (developed at the council of Nicea in 325 CE). Nearly all Christians, both protestant and Catholic, agree with it:
http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

However, to use the mainstream definition ignores history. After Jesus’ death, it appears that literally dozens of Christianities sprung up. Some believed that Jesus was a god, some believed he was human, some believed he was both. Some believed you had to be Jewish to be Christian, some believed that Jewish things (like the old testament) had no part in Christianity. Their beliefs were even more varied than todays thousands of Christian denominations. All of these Christianities had scripture to support their views, and they all believed their scripture was written by apostles and was correct. We know today that all of the books of the new testament probably weren’t written by apostles, except for the Pauline letters (and some of the other Christianities didn’t believe Paul when he said he was an apostle). The Roman church was able to gain dominance, and eradicate these other Christianities by 400 CE. So our “bible” today is simply the sacred scripture of the Roman church. That Roman church destroyed the other Christian scriptures, and put itself in place as the “only” Christianity. This is why the Nicene Creed is practically a laundry list of statements written to disagree with the other competeing christianities in turn (read it sometime, you'll see what I mean).

It’s amazing to me how many people (Christians in particular) don’t know this. If you’d like to learn about those other Christianities, I recommend ordering these lectures:

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6593.asp (audio form)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195141830/qid=1085748569/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6867012-7485562?v=glance&s=books (book form, $20)

If you get them on audio tape they are just $35, the same you probably spend every month on cable. Which will stoke your mind more, a month of cable or learning about these other Christianities? I found that listening to them in my car on my commute worked great.

So as a result, it is not really accurate to decide what “Christianity” is based only on the scriptures of one type of Christianity (the Roman Church & their Bible). So in all fairness, I have to go with Punxzen and Aine of the Fae in defining “Christianity” as “any religion that sees Jesus as significant or central”. That would include Gnostics, Mormons, Jehovah’s witnesses, and people who try to follow just “Jesus’ teachings” while ignoring the rest of the Bible, or ignoring Jesus’ death as an atoning sacrifice (which many early Christianities didn’t believe in).


Very good....


MheraPai

After being on this site for a year or two we should get a degree or something.

[charmedkisses1]

That you believe Christ was the son of God/ess, and that he came to earth to die for your soul. Pretty much it....

[equinox2]

Charmed kisses wrote:


That you believe Christ was the son of God/ess, and that he came to earth to die for your soul. Pretty much it....


So you don't consider Gnostic christians to be "Christian"? They don't believe that. Or the Ebionite Christians? They believe that Jesus was just a human, without any divinity. Are you being exclusive of other Christian paths?

[Sleet]

If a person calls him/herself a Christian, I don't consider it my place to say otherwise.